WEBVTT - "Sorry Can't Make It": The Appeal Of A Post-Social Life 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.382 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.142 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:19.662 that this podcast is recorded on. So I'm going to 0:00:19.701 --> 0:00:20.462 cancel my plans. 0:00:20.462 --> 0:00:21.582 Wooh, canceled plans. 0:00:21.622 --> 0:00:26.382 Like think culturally about how much now we celebrate introversion, 0:00:26.582 --> 0:00:29.342 canceled plans. I don't have to go to mom's boundaries, 0:00:29.422 --> 0:00:31.661 like all the things that where we're like, we want 0:00:31.702 --> 0:00:34.302 to build a little wall around ourselves. And I think 0:00:34.342 --> 0:00:36.501 it's because we just want to be alone with our phones, 0:00:36.582 --> 0:00:44.542 right because it's easy. Hello, and welcome to Mama Mia 0:00:44.582 --> 0:00:47.821 out Loud and to our Friday's show. You won't hear 0:00:48.062 --> 0:00:50.302 any news on the show today, which is a shame. 0:00:50.582 --> 0:00:52.862 Actually it's lucky because hardly anything's happened. 0:00:52.542 --> 0:00:57.982 This week, really slow, very quiet news week. Anyway, we 0:00:58.022 --> 0:01:00.262 are taking a deep breath, we are leaving all of 0:01:00.302 --> 0:01:02.782 that in the week behind us and just. 0:01:02.702 --> 0:01:04.302 Having to chat up today. 0:01:04.301 --> 0:01:04.941 It's Friday, the. 0:01:04.941 --> 0:01:07.702 Twenty fourth of January, and I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm mea. 0:01:07.542 --> 0:01:09.222 Freeman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:01:09.581 --> 0:01:12.101 And on the show today, are you more anti social 0:01:12.142 --> 0:01:14.382 than you used to be, than your parents were, than 0:01:14.422 --> 0:01:17.902 you'd like to be welcome friends to the anti social century, 0:01:18.222 --> 0:01:19.942 where we just like everyone. 0:01:19.662 --> 0:01:20.662 Else to bubble us. 0:01:21.222 --> 0:01:24.342 Also a Doctomea is obsessed with a podcast for super 0:01:24.382 --> 0:01:28.462 fans and a trademark Jesse Stevens depressing TV show. Yes 0:01:28.902 --> 0:01:31.982 It's Recommendations and our best and Worst of the week. 0:01:32.182 --> 0:01:35.622 Jesse had a very bad Tuesday. I met a beautiful 0:01:35.622 --> 0:01:38.622 super villain and MEA's brain is betraying her. But first 0:01:38.662 --> 0:01:41.742 I want to ask you about something. Should children stand 0:01:41.862 --> 0:01:43.462 up when an adult enters the room? 0:01:43.822 --> 0:01:45.222 I don't hate it? Do you hate it? 0:01:45.422 --> 0:01:46.542 Or if I want to sit down? 0:01:46.702 --> 0:01:47.181 They should? 0:01:47.422 --> 0:01:48.462 And there's not enough chairs? 0:01:48.822 --> 0:01:49.342 Oh wow? 0:01:49.502 --> 0:01:49.862 Okay? 0:01:50.022 --> 0:01:53.342 Should they stand up when their mother enters the room? 0:01:54.022 --> 0:01:56.782 I'm asking because Maria Shriver, who's a Kennedy of sorts 0:01:56.822 --> 0:02:00.862 and Arnold Schwarzenegger's ex wife, says she has always made 0:02:00.902 --> 0:02:03.622 her for now adult kids do that. Here's what she 0:02:03.622 --> 0:02:04.262 says about it. 0:02:04.662 --> 0:02:09.542 When Maria comes into her home and there are children there, 0:02:09.901 --> 0:02:13.621 her sons, her daughters and their friends, they stand up. Yeah, 0:02:13.702 --> 0:02:16.702 I make them stand up, she makes them so. I 0:02:17.382 --> 0:02:19.662 used to make them. Now they just do stand up. Yeah, 0:02:20.022 --> 0:02:22.862 but yeah, well my mother did that so I've there's 0:02:22.982 --> 0:02:25.342 many things that I've emulated from my mother, but she 0:02:25.622 --> 0:02:30.102 my grandmother and my mother, and we're big on manners. 0:02:30.622 --> 0:02:33.502 So you know, when somebody who was older walked in 0:02:33.542 --> 0:02:36.462 the room, aka my mother, everybody stood up. 0:02:36.742 --> 0:02:39.182 Jesse, your daughters just started walking. Is it time to 0:02:39.181 --> 0:02:41.222 implement this on your feet? Luna? 0:02:41.582 --> 0:02:42.022 You know what? 0:02:42.222 --> 0:02:44.542 She kind of does it now because often when I 0:02:44.542 --> 0:02:46.022 walk into a room, she wants to be picked up. 0:02:46.181 --> 0:02:47.781 So this is probably the only moment in my life 0:02:47.782 --> 0:02:50.142 where she will do it. I don't hate this. I 0:02:50.222 --> 0:02:53.781 reckon it says, I acknowledge you. I like what Shriver 0:02:53.862 --> 0:02:56.742 says about you often walk into a room and kids 0:02:56.782 --> 0:02:59.702 are on tablets or phones or television. It's like you're 0:02:59.742 --> 0:03:03.182 just white noise in the background. I reckon, do what 0:03:03.222 --> 0:03:06.582 you want your own house to teach respect and etiquette. 0:03:06.582 --> 0:03:08.902 But I look back at my childhood and no hate 0:03:08.982 --> 0:03:11.582 my parents, but there were some basic etiquette rules. I 0:03:11.622 --> 0:03:14.582 feel as though I missed and I had to learn 0:03:14.582 --> 0:03:18.661 in adulthood what I only learned very recently that when 0:03:18.662 --> 0:03:21.022 you're at a table with people and you pour yourself 0:03:21.022 --> 0:03:23.022 a glass of water, like at a restaurant or something, 0:03:23.222 --> 0:03:24.502 then you should also pour them a. 0:03:24.502 --> 0:03:25.102 Glass of water. 0:03:25.782 --> 0:03:27.582 I was never taught that because I didn't really go 0:03:27.622 --> 0:03:29.582 out to dinner that much, so I didn't know. And 0:03:29.742 --> 0:03:32.822 also I remember going to a girl I went to 0:03:32.942 --> 0:03:34.942 high school with. We were maybe fifteen, and she had 0:03:34.982 --> 0:03:37.262 like a dinner party at her house and she wanted 0:03:37.302 --> 0:03:39.542 to have like a soiree and anyway, and they served 0:03:39.542 --> 0:03:40.982 as dinner, and I didn't know what to do with 0:03:41.102 --> 0:03:42.942 my knife and fork. I didn't know where to start. 0:03:42.942 --> 0:03:44.182 I didn't know what to do when it was finished, 0:03:45.142 --> 0:03:47.742 and her mother came over and made some comment about like, 0:03:48.062 --> 0:03:49.902 no one's ever taught you to use a knife for fork, 0:03:49.982 --> 0:03:50.542 and I was like. 0:03:50.582 --> 0:03:51.902 Your daughter is a bitch. 0:03:52.262 --> 0:03:54.942 I would prather not know how to use a knife 0:03:54.982 --> 0:03:56.862 for fork than be satan maya. 0:03:56.902 --> 0:03:59.502 Can you imagine a world in which you entered a 0:03:59.582 --> 0:04:01.302 room and your children all stood up? 0:04:01.582 --> 0:04:04.062 It made me think of that expression if you want 0:04:04.222 --> 0:04:07.302 someone to be happy when you get home and you've 0:04:07.342 --> 0:04:11.902 got teenagers by a dog, And I do have a dog, 0:04:11.942 --> 0:04:14.942 and my dog now both my dogs is very she jumps. 0:04:14.982 --> 0:04:16.782 Both of them jump up, actually. 0:04:16.462 --> 0:04:17.981 Which is a behavioral issue. 0:04:18.902 --> 0:04:21.142 One of them leaps up to the height of my head. 0:04:21.981 --> 0:04:24.181 I wanted to not like this. I wanted to think 0:04:24.181 --> 0:04:28.342 it was draconian, but I think at its heart is 0:04:28.541 --> 0:04:30.662 and we're going to be talking about this a little 0:04:30.662 --> 0:04:33.101 bit later in the show, but it's about acknowledging someone's 0:04:33.181 --> 0:04:38.022 humanity and their presence and looking them in the eye. 0:04:38.061 --> 0:04:40.582 I'm very strict with manners with my kids. I mean, 0:04:40.621 --> 0:04:44.061 it's funny. My adult son was at my house the 0:04:44.101 --> 0:04:47.942 other day and my mum came over. She really wanted 0:04:47.981 --> 0:04:52.061 to see her now adult grandchildren and my sons. My 0:04:52.142 --> 0:04:54.061 daughter of course, was talking to my mum. My two 0:04:54.061 --> 0:04:58.222 sons were on their phones, texting, doing something, and I 0:04:58.342 --> 0:05:01.301 elbowed my eldest son, who is twenty seven, and said, 0:05:01.821 --> 0:05:05.142 get over your phone, like put your phone down. And 0:05:05.181 --> 0:05:08.021 he looked daggers at me and said, do not ever 0:05:08.222 --> 0:05:10.582 say that to me. Well I will. I must say 0:05:10.621 --> 0:05:12.701 that to you. I'll say that to you again. Pick 0:05:12.741 --> 0:05:14.621 up a phone again, I'll say it again. Can't stop 0:05:14.621 --> 0:05:14.902 me doing. 0:05:14.941 --> 0:05:17.221 But there's a world of difference, right because I agree 0:05:17.262 --> 0:05:19.261 with you. Like when I walk into my house and 0:05:19.301 --> 0:05:22.101 I'm like hi and nobody says anything, I get really 0:05:22.101 --> 0:05:24.541 shitty and I'll be like you will come and say Hello. 0:05:24.782 --> 0:05:27.342 But there's a world of difference between looking up from 0:05:27.381 --> 0:05:30.462 a phone and actually like standing up straight. 0:05:30.301 --> 0:05:33.142 Like yeah, you know, like the questious knowledgy someone walking 0:05:33.222 --> 0:05:35.061 into a room is really important. And I think the 0:05:35.061 --> 0:05:37.181 thing with phones. I once read this about a director 0:05:37.181 --> 0:05:39.262 who would not let phones on his set, and he 0:05:39.301 --> 0:05:42.381 talked about how, even if you weren't directly involved in 0:05:42.421 --> 0:05:44.861 the part of the conversation that was happening at that time, 0:05:45.381 --> 0:05:48.741 one person looking at their phone leeches energy out of 0:05:48.741 --> 0:05:52.621 the conversation, even if they're not interrupting or anything like that. 0:05:52.861 --> 0:05:55.502 And that's true. And so when my two sons were 0:05:55.501 --> 0:05:57.381 doing that, and my mum, I know, knew, was so 0:05:57.462 --> 0:05:59.741 excited to be over and seeing them, and they were 0:05:59.782 --> 0:06:02.381 probably doing whatever urgent thing has to be done in 0:06:02.381 --> 0:06:05.821 the moment, which is never very urgent. It was leeching 0:06:05.941 --> 0:06:08.782 energy out of the interaction, out of conversation. It was 0:06:08.821 --> 0:06:09.541 really to humanized. 0:06:09.861 --> 0:06:12.941 Do you think that because she's Maria Shreiver and her 0:06:13.101 --> 0:06:16.222 children are with Arnold Schwarzenegger and they have four kids, 0:06:16.582 --> 0:06:18.901 do you think that the expectation if you're a parent 0:06:19.462 --> 0:06:22.741 and you know, you're famous, you're rich, you're privileged that 0:06:22.821 --> 0:06:25.902 you have to raise your children in a particular way 0:06:26.101 --> 0:06:30.981 to almost circumvent that, so that your children have almost 0:06:31.101 --> 0:06:32.902 more respect that Kennedy. 0:06:33.902 --> 0:06:35.421 My mother, Unice is a Kennedy. 0:06:35.462 --> 0:06:37.662 I think that's more part of it. It's very waspy, 0:06:37.861 --> 0:06:41.861 old school like respect, you know, call me mom like vibes. 0:06:41.902 --> 0:06:45.782 It's very that. But also, yes, you often hear celebrities 0:06:45.782 --> 0:06:47.981 talk about how important manners are in their kids because 0:06:47.981 --> 0:06:49.902 I think they think that everybody thinks their kids are 0:06:49.902 --> 0:06:52.622 going to be entitled brats and they want to counter program. 0:06:52.861 --> 0:06:55.582 But I still think there is a lot of difference 0:06:55.621 --> 0:06:58.342 between manners. And you have to stand up when I 0:06:58.462 --> 0:07:01.101 walk in the room. I just can't even imagine it. 0:07:01.142 --> 0:07:03.861 Holly has a role a parenting. You know how Holly 0:07:04.061 --> 0:07:07.501 gives out so much parenting at all. And I've actually 0:07:07.782 --> 0:07:10.582 kept this one, and it's that when you or child 0:07:10.662 --> 0:07:13.261 walks or crawls or rolls into a room, you smile 0:07:13.302 --> 0:07:13.542 at them. 0:07:13.582 --> 0:07:13.742 Yeah. 0:07:13.782 --> 0:07:15.302 Always, you always have to be happy to see them. 0:07:15.342 --> 0:07:16.942 You always have to be happy to see them. That's 0:07:16.982 --> 0:07:17.462 a good rule. 0:07:18.422 --> 0:07:22.141 The Anti Social Century that's the cover story on the 0:07:22.142 --> 0:07:25.782 February issue of The Atlantic, written by Derek Thompson. He 0:07:25.982 --> 0:07:29.742 opens the feature with a vignette of a bar or 0:07:29.782 --> 0:07:33.182 imagine a restaurant right, and the tables and chairs are empty. 0:07:33.662 --> 0:07:37.022 The bar where people once sat, maybe even solo talking 0:07:37.022 --> 0:07:39.901 to the bar man or woman, is now covered in 0:07:39.982 --> 0:07:43.341 brown paper bags, and a person walks in, takes their bag, 0:07:43.702 --> 0:07:46.381 barely speaks to the stuff, and retreats back to their home. 0:07:47.062 --> 0:07:51.622 Thompson argues that solitude is impacting our personalities. There are 0:07:51.702 --> 0:07:54.902 a bunch of statistics. Drinks with friends has declined by 0:07:55.142 --> 0:07:59.302 thirty percent over twenty years. Rituals of togetherness like going 0:07:59.342 --> 0:08:01.982 to the cinema has been replaced by watching a movie 0:08:02.262 --> 0:08:06.302 at home. And solitude, he says, is different to loneliness. 0:08:06.422 --> 0:08:10.222 Loneliness is an important human emotion. It gives us a 0:08:10.222 --> 0:08:14.342 biological queue to go and seek out a social experience. 0:08:15.182 --> 0:08:18.982 The thing about solitude is that we're choosing it. We 0:08:19.102 --> 0:08:22.022 predict that alone time will make us happier, and all 0:08:22.062 --> 0:08:24.542 the research says it absolutely does not. 0:08:25.542 --> 0:08:26.702 Solitude has also. 0:08:26.502 --> 0:08:29.422 Agree with the research. She disagrees with the research. 0:08:29.422 --> 0:08:31.022 Okay, I'm going to tell you how it's transformed the 0:08:31.062 --> 0:08:33.062 economy and then politics, and then I'm going to go 0:08:33.142 --> 0:08:36.702 come back to you. Solitude has transformed the economy. You know, 0:08:36.702 --> 0:08:39.302 we talk about remote work. There is a researcher named 0:08:39.342 --> 0:08:42.902 Patrick Sharky who calls it remote life, with the entire 0:08:42.942 --> 0:08:45.862 economy oriented around how to allow us to stay within 0:08:45.902 --> 0:08:48.942 our own four walls. Now you might say, okay, doesn't 0:08:48.942 --> 0:08:51.062 that mean we're spending more time with our families? And 0:08:51.102 --> 0:08:54.022 in fact, some research suggests we are our intimate partner 0:08:54.022 --> 0:08:57.022 for example. But what's missing is what they call the 0:08:57.142 --> 0:09:01.062 middle circle, the neighbors, the people in our little village. 0:09:01.662 --> 0:09:05.742 And while the close ring kids partners teach us love 0:09:05.742 --> 0:09:09.462 and intimacy, the middle ring teaches us something called tolerance, 0:09:09.782 --> 0:09:13.182 and it's foundational to a democracy. That's how solitude is 0:09:13.262 --> 0:09:14.062 changing politics. 0:09:14.102 --> 0:09:16.862 So the middle ring do you mean? Just the interactions 0:09:16.902 --> 0:09:21.462 that we have with people getting on the busy, sitting 0:09:20.822 --> 0:09:22.782 in the buying something in a shop. 0:09:23.062 --> 0:09:25.142 The example they gave too was like, so you know, 0:09:25.182 --> 0:09:27.062 there's a panc at a school and you go and 0:09:27.182 --> 0:09:28.862 you might go and hang out with other mums or 0:09:28.942 --> 0:09:31.942 dads and chat to them, and this mum is totally 0:09:31.942 --> 0:09:34.462 different to you. You don't agree on most things, but 0:09:34.542 --> 0:09:38.662 you bond over the fact your daughters do netball. That's 0:09:38.742 --> 0:09:42.062 what's missing is what the research is suggesting. May I 0:09:42.182 --> 0:09:43.662 please defend solitude? 0:09:43.782 --> 0:09:44.662 Go on try. 0:09:46.222 --> 0:09:48.102 I think the thing is I agree with a part 0:09:48.102 --> 0:09:49.942 about tolerance, and I'll get to that in a second. 0:09:49.982 --> 0:09:53.262 But I think that the biggest problem that we are 0:09:53.302 --> 0:09:56.062 trying to solve by spending more time alone is that 0:09:56.102 --> 0:09:59.062 we are never alone ever, And what being alone means 0:09:59.342 --> 0:10:03.142 has really changed because everyone you've ever met and everyone 0:10:03.182 --> 0:10:06.062 in the world, in fact, even Elon Musk is with 0:10:06.182 --> 0:10:08.182 you at all times in your pocket, but he's. 0:10:08.062 --> 0:10:11.542 Not in a meaningful And also the definition of this 0:10:11.862 --> 0:10:15.422 and the purposes of this research is being physically alone 0:10:15.502 --> 0:10:15.982 in a room. 0:10:16.102 --> 0:10:19.102 Yes, And so this is where I think that the 0:10:19.142 --> 0:10:23.622 research and this whole very overwrought piece in The Atlantic, 0:10:23.982 --> 0:10:26.822 which I was interested to read, but I found it missed. 0:10:26.862 --> 0:10:30.942 The main point is that being online when you're by 0:10:31.022 --> 0:10:34.462 yourself is like a third thing, because there's being alone, 0:10:34.782 --> 0:10:39.022 actually alone with your thoughts or in the garden. There's 0:10:39.142 --> 0:10:42.862 being with people in a social context or going sitting 0:10:42.862 --> 0:10:47.462 in the movies, and then there is being online alone 0:10:47.582 --> 0:10:50.582 and that's almost a facsimile of socializing. I think it's 0:10:50.582 --> 0:10:53.342 a third thing, and what it can be is very 0:10:53.422 --> 0:10:56.382 very fatiguing. So I found that when I did a 0:10:56.462 --> 0:10:59.182 No Filter episode a while back about the seven different 0:10:59.182 --> 0:11:02.262 types of rest, and it talked about sometimes when you're exhausted, 0:11:02.342 --> 0:11:04.942 which I often found myself last year and the year before, 0:11:05.782 --> 0:11:08.182 I would get enough sleep. Sleep's never been a problem 0:11:08.182 --> 0:11:11.462 for me, but I was still tired, and it was 0:11:11.582 --> 0:11:14.222 because I was I needed social rest. There's all these 0:11:14.222 --> 0:11:16.462 different types of rest, and sleep is actually just one 0:11:16.502 --> 0:11:20.022 of them. Social rest is really important to have rest 0:11:20.102 --> 0:11:22.662 being away from other people. So while I need to 0:11:22.742 --> 0:11:26.142 be alone physically and have physical space because our job 0:11:26.222 --> 0:11:27.982 is very social, we work in an office full of 0:11:28.022 --> 0:11:32.582 one hundred people, when I go home, I'm still socializing 0:11:32.622 --> 0:11:35.342 in many ways. So it's not like the olden days 0:11:35.422 --> 0:11:38.102 where you would go home and you would be alone, 0:11:38.382 --> 0:11:41.462 literally alone. And I'm not saying that it is the 0:11:41.502 --> 0:11:44.582 same and that is the same quality, but we're filling 0:11:44.622 --> 0:11:47.262 up on chips, we're filling up on this other thing 0:11:47.942 --> 0:11:53.062 of socializing online. That means that we are socially fatigued 0:11:53.102 --> 0:11:55.542 all the time. And the other thing that it does is, 0:11:55.582 --> 0:11:57.702 of course, as you say, we've lost our tolerance for 0:11:57.742 --> 0:12:00.742 the friction of being in the world. So when you 0:12:00.822 --> 0:12:02.182 spend a lot of time on your own or when 0:12:02.182 --> 0:12:03.742 you spend a lot of time online, and our whole 0:12:03.742 --> 0:12:05.782 world is on demand. I can do everything when I 0:12:05.782 --> 0:12:08.062 want to do it. I don't have to wait, I 0:12:08.062 --> 0:12:10.062 don't have to be bored, I don't have to be frustrated. 0:12:10.062 --> 0:12:11.462 I don't have to talk to the person I don't 0:12:11.462 --> 0:12:14.302 want to talk to then when you have to, You're right, 0:12:14.342 --> 0:12:15.902 that muscle is really really weak. 0:12:15.982 --> 0:12:16.742 But I don't know. 0:12:16.782 --> 0:12:19.102 I find these articles a little bit exhausting because it's like, well, 0:12:19.142 --> 0:12:20.662 what do you want to do? You can't put the 0:12:20.702 --> 0:12:21.262 genie back in the. 0:12:21.262 --> 0:12:24.102 Bottom, but what it's doing, which I found interesting because 0:12:24.102 --> 0:12:25.982 I agree with you. And actually they do make that 0:12:26.142 --> 0:12:30.542 point about how if we're canceling in real life social 0:12:30.822 --> 0:12:34.382 events because we feel socially fatigued from being online. That's 0:12:34.382 --> 0:12:36.062 one of the things he points out. He says that 0:12:36.502 --> 0:12:38.742 sometimes people might think, oh, I'm lonely and i'm sad, 0:12:38.782 --> 0:12:41.302 I haven't seen anyone frages, I'll make some plans, but 0:12:41.342 --> 0:12:43.582 instead we go I'm lonely, I'm sad, and I feel 0:12:43.622 --> 0:12:46.342 socially exhausted because I've been online. Yeah, so I'm going 0:12:46.382 --> 0:12:49.381 to cancel my plans, woh, canceled plans Like think culturally 0:12:49.822 --> 0:12:54.302 about how much now we celebrate introversion canceled plans. I 0:12:54.342 --> 0:12:56.662 don't have to go to Mum's boundaries, like all the 0:12:56.662 --> 0:12:58.982 things that where we're like, we want to build a 0:12:59.022 --> 0:13:01.742 little wall around ourselves. And I think it's because we 0:13:01.862 --> 0:13:03.822 just want to be alone with our phones, right, because 0:13:03.862 --> 0:13:06.302 it's easy, and that's what we really want. 0:13:06.182 --> 0:13:07.622 To do, and we can put it down when we 0:13:07.662 --> 0:13:08.422 feel that, yeah. 0:13:08.262 --> 0:13:09.302 Exact ways that we can't. 0:13:09.542 --> 0:13:12.782 So texting with a friend is not necessarily a conversation, 0:13:12.862 --> 0:13:14.342 even if you're doing it in real time. It's a 0:13:14.342 --> 0:13:17.022 series of monologues. But I think that it's not the 0:13:17.062 --> 0:13:20.142 same thing. We feel fatigued because you know, for example, 0:13:20.182 --> 0:13:22.261 I had a wedding to go to last week, and 0:13:23.342 --> 0:13:25.902 I was feeling, oh, I'm so tired because I knew 0:13:25.942 --> 0:13:27.582 it was going to take a lot of social energy 0:13:27.582 --> 0:13:29.622 and I don't have a lot of social energy. That 0:13:29.742 --> 0:13:33.062 muscle of small talk of all of those things you 0:13:33.102 --> 0:13:37.222 can't control has become very flabby for me. And yet 0:13:37.222 --> 0:13:40.342 when I went there, I had the most lovely conversations. 0:13:40.462 --> 0:13:43.022 I came back feeling so nourished. It's like eating a 0:13:43.022 --> 0:13:46.822 big nutritious meal instead of fuzz food five hundred. 0:13:46.502 --> 0:13:49.422 Percent that our phones and the internet is one part 0:13:49.422 --> 0:13:51.342 of the story, but not the whole story. So there 0:13:51.422 --> 0:13:53.782 was some research in this article and it's something that's 0:13:53.982 --> 0:13:56.942 replicated in Australia, which is that from the nineteen seventies 0:13:57.542 --> 0:14:02.502 governments have wound back on the creation of public spaces. Politically, 0:14:02.542 --> 0:14:06.182 we went from a focus on community and government provided 0:14:06.222 --> 0:14:10.822 services to going very neoliberal, very individualistic, and everyone was 0:14:10.902 --> 0:14:12.022 just in charge of themselves. 0:14:12.142 --> 0:14:15.062 And also everybody retreated to their televisions. It's really interesting 0:14:15.102 --> 0:14:17.382 how they say that in this article. They make the 0:14:17.422 --> 0:14:21.262 point that in that time we gained about six hours 0:14:21.262 --> 0:14:23.902 of leisure time a week because of various technological advances, 0:14:23.902 --> 0:14:26.062 and we gave them all to the TV. Yeah, and 0:14:26.102 --> 0:14:29.262 it's kind of like, now, you know, technology is making 0:14:29.302 --> 0:14:31.062 our life easier every day in lots of ways, and 0:14:31.062 --> 0:14:33.262 what do we do with those extra hours? We give 0:14:33.302 --> 0:14:34.022 them to our phone. 0:14:34.302 --> 0:14:34.662 Yeah. 0:14:34.782 --> 0:14:37.582 He wrote about though, was that the demographic that is 0:14:37.662 --> 0:14:41.222 sort of experiencing the most solitude and is choosing it 0:14:41.302 --> 0:14:45.262 is young men. And there was this brilliant term that 0:14:45.422 --> 0:14:48.422 a philosopher named Andrew Taggart came up with, which was 0:14:48.622 --> 0:14:51.382 secular monks. So no, how a monk goes about their 0:14:51.422 --> 0:14:55.142 life in a really disciplined way. I mean, ironically, monks 0:14:55.382 --> 0:14:58.622 are in a group and they have the community of worshiping. 0:14:58.862 --> 0:15:01.422 Didn't have a scitus to why they were doing that. 0:15:01.542 --> 0:15:03.102 Is it to watch porn and game? 0:15:03.262 --> 0:15:07.422 No? No, Basically he talks about and I've been served 0:15:07.502 --> 0:15:08.422 this in my algorithm. 0:15:08.662 --> 0:15:10.462 Have you ever been served with the morning routine of 0:15:10.502 --> 0:15:11.022 a young man. 0:15:11.222 --> 0:15:13.462 I've been served lots of morning routines. I don't think 0:15:13.502 --> 0:15:13.902 any men. 0:15:14.062 --> 0:15:16.422 Okay, the young man will get up and hill. We've 0:15:16.422 --> 0:15:19.822 talked about this before, have the cold plunge, do the exercise. 0:15:19.942 --> 0:15:22.062 In fact, this is very Brian Johnson, who we talk 0:15:22.102 --> 0:15:25.782 about on yesterday's Subscribe episode. But the morning routine is 0:15:26.102 --> 0:15:29.262 very controlled and very I have my breakfast and I 0:15:29.302 --> 0:15:30.462 have my vitamins and then I. 0:15:30.382 --> 0:15:31.102 Do my exercise. 0:15:31.182 --> 0:15:32.782 So als of that optimizing. 0:15:32.222 --> 0:15:34.902 Stuff, optimizing stuff. What you will never see in the 0:15:34.942 --> 0:15:39.702 morning routine is another person. So it's like even the exercise. 0:15:39.782 --> 0:15:41.662 And I've said this to Luca, I've watched it and 0:15:41.902 --> 0:15:43.742 as a lot of these men work from home as well, 0:15:43.742 --> 0:15:46.022 and I think when was the last time this person 0:15:46.782 --> 0:15:47.822 saw another person. 0:15:48.062 --> 0:15:48.182 Like. 0:15:48.542 --> 0:15:50.702 That's what I found fascinating about this is you think that's. 0:15:50.582 --> 0:15:53.662 Because women are inherently more social creatures and we have 0:15:54.302 --> 0:15:58.222 more caring responsibilities. So often the only time you'll get alone, 0:15:58.262 --> 0:16:00.222 the only time I get alone often is in my car. 0:16:00.782 --> 0:16:03.502 Often you're not even alone on the toilet when you're 0:16:03.782 --> 0:16:05.022 always got little kids in your house. 0:16:05.102 --> 0:16:05.542 This theory. 0:16:05.582 --> 0:16:07.022 I was listening to Trevor Noa the other day and 0:16:07.102 --> 0:16:10.142 he had the best serie, which is that women were 0:16:10.222 --> 0:16:12.222 pushed out of the workplace and into their homes for 0:16:12.382 --> 0:16:15.502 a lot of years, right, and they had to find 0:16:15.542 --> 0:16:18.822 a way to fill their time with connection, whether it 0:16:18.862 --> 0:16:22.182 was book clubs, whether it was coffee dates, whether it 0:16:22.222 --> 0:16:25.982 was being able to have a great conversation. Men haven't 0:16:26.022 --> 0:16:28.462 practiced that to the same degree like they're up. 0:16:28.462 --> 0:16:30.742 Until very recently, or they got it at work. 0:16:30.822 --> 0:16:32.542 They got it at work, which we do now too. 0:16:32.702 --> 0:16:35.662 Yes, And so women could easily go into the workplace 0:16:35.702 --> 0:16:37.742 when we were allowed because we were just kind of like, oh, 0:16:37.942 --> 0:16:40.102 our brains can do this. But men now have this 0:16:40.222 --> 0:16:43.022 whole region of their life that it's like, I'm not 0:16:43.102 --> 0:16:46.982 practiced in how to fill this and connect and do 0:16:47.262 --> 0:16:50.102 the things that maybe come a little bit more naturally 0:16:50.142 --> 0:16:52.142 to women, probably because we've also seen them in our 0:16:52.142 --> 0:16:55.822 mothers and our grandmothers and everything throughout generations. But I 0:16:55.862 --> 0:16:58.702 thought the point about young men was particularly poignant because 0:16:58.702 --> 0:17:01.182 we talk about loneliness, but I think that's a very 0:17:01.222 --> 0:17:06.182 different thing to choosing to be alone, which I'm seeing 0:17:06.222 --> 0:17:06.661 a lot of. 0:17:07.382 --> 0:17:09.462 They think they're okay, and from the outside, I go. 0:17:09.782 --> 0:17:12.101 It's interesting though, because one of the things I've always 0:17:12.622 --> 0:17:15.661 thought and said to people in my life, and I 0:17:15.702 --> 0:17:17.901 said to my kids, is you have to learn how 0:17:17.942 --> 0:17:19.502 to be happy with your own company. I think it's 0:17:19.542 --> 0:17:22.142 really important. I think that learning how to be alone 0:17:22.821 --> 0:17:25.422 is actually really conducive to you having a healthy life, 0:17:25.422 --> 0:17:28.381 because I know I and many many people around me 0:17:28.782 --> 0:17:31.742 with or without phone. This is not phone. I'm talking 0:17:31.782 --> 0:17:33.902 about real life. Like so maybe you've got your phone, 0:17:33.901 --> 0:17:36.502 maybe you haven't. But the point is is that people 0:17:36.661 --> 0:17:39.022 women in particular, have often been terrified of being alone, 0:17:39.061 --> 0:17:41.782 and because of that, they'll be in terrible relationships. They'll 0:17:41.782 --> 0:17:44.101 put up with friendships that are toxic, they'll put up 0:17:44.141 --> 0:17:45.621 with all kinds of things because they're like, I couldn't 0:17:45.621 --> 0:17:49.262 possibly be alone. Right, So I make it a point 0:17:49.341 --> 0:17:52.221 to say to my kids, you know, I went traveling alone. 0:17:52.502 --> 0:17:54.221 I moved across the world alone. I can walk into 0:17:54.262 --> 0:17:56.381 a restaurant alone, I can go to the movies alone. Like, 0:17:56.422 --> 0:17:58.181 I think it's good to learn how to be alone, 0:17:58.222 --> 0:18:01.861 because then you choose social connection when you want it. 0:18:01.901 --> 0:18:03.821 And I think that that's a good thing. But the 0:18:03.861 --> 0:18:06.862 problem with that is because now our lives have been 0:18:06.861 --> 0:18:09.061 redesigned that we do all want to be alone all 0:18:09.101 --> 0:18:11.341 the time. It's almost the flip, and now I'm like, 0:18:11.742 --> 0:18:14.061 you have to learn how to be around people that 0:18:14.141 --> 0:18:17.101 you don't particularly want to be around, like, because they 0:18:17.141 --> 0:18:20.542