WEBVTT - Screw 'Slimming': A Mouthful of Radical Joy 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a Momma mea podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:25.367 that this podcast is recorded on. Circling a thumb over 0:00:25.407 --> 0:00:31.447 a perfectly smooth pebble, a mouthful of satin, sticky, sweet 0:00:31.527 --> 0:00:36.327 salty breeze, the slow smile of someone who gives them 0:00:36.367 --> 0:00:41.727 away rarely, the unfurling of a pointy green leaf to 0:00:41.807 --> 0:00:45.927 a tendril, a flower, a fruit, the fur sip of 0:00:46.007 --> 0:00:49.047 hot tea on a frigid, cold morning, a lick at 0:00:49.087 --> 0:00:52.647 the salt on a cocktail's rim, a hand that slides 0:00:52.687 --> 0:00:58.967 inside yours without hesitation, the perfect mango that time your 0:00:59.047 --> 0:01:02.727 mum said that was a good day, wasn't it. The 0:01:02.767 --> 0:01:05.567 giggle of someone with whom silliness is never an eg. 0:01:06.047 --> 0:01:09.167 The specific pain in your stomach from laughing so hard 0:01:09.367 --> 0:01:12.687 that breath can't be caught. The way birds fly in 0:01:12.727 --> 0:01:16.567 that particular pattern, and how your legs shudder in orgasm. 0:01:17.007 --> 0:01:19.207 I'll take my little joys where I can get them now. 0:01:19.367 --> 0:01:22.567 The small ones are where it's at. The big ones, 0:01:22.607 --> 0:01:25.567 the showy ones, the firework ones that you chase and 0:01:25.647 --> 0:01:29.287 imagine one day you'll catch and swallow so they'll spread 0:01:29.327 --> 0:01:32.167 to every corner of your life, setting it all glowing 0:01:33.087 --> 0:01:35.487 by mid You know that those are the ones that 0:01:35.567 --> 0:01:36.847 flame high. 0:01:36.527 --> 0:01:37.767 And burn out fast. 0:01:39.567 --> 0:01:42.687 It's the small ones that make a mid life worth living. 0:01:43.287 --> 0:01:49.007 A fresh prawn dipped in unfashionably pink sauce, a steaming 0:01:49.087 --> 0:01:51.687 bowl of soup, noodles with a side of pungent chili, 0:01:51.967 --> 0:01:56.247 a homemade cake with Smarties on top, mashed potato with 0:01:56.327 --> 0:02:00.287 a cold sliver of butter and a dusting of spiky saltflakes. 0:02:02.807 --> 0:02:06.047 The way you feel after an hour with your closest friend, 0:02:06.807 --> 0:02:10.647 sustained eye contact with my ridiculous dot, the light on 0:02:10.727 --> 0:02:15.967 the ocean at exactly five point thirty pm, airport arrivals, 0:02:16.967 --> 0:02:20.247 arms that wrap all the way around you, winning an 0:02:20.327 --> 0:02:25.287 unimportant argument, lying in bed with a happy child, lying 0:02:25.327 --> 0:02:32.207 in bed with a transporting book, lying in bed chocolate coffee, cream, 0:02:32.807 --> 0:02:35.647 stripped of shame and guilt. It's the little things that 0:02:35.687 --> 0:02:39.687 bring us pleasure. They nourish us completely. A good life 0:02:39.727 --> 0:02:44.047 is made up of those moments. They are life, fleeting, salty, 0:02:44.167 --> 0:02:47.967 spicy sweet. Looking back at it all, it's what we'll remember. 0:02:48.887 --> 0:02:53.647 How people made us feel, what we tasted, who we loved. 0:02:57.287 --> 0:03:02.367 My name is Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife, midfamily, 0:03:02.487 --> 0:03:06.727 mid meal. Often Generation X can be funny about food. 0:03:07.167 --> 0:03:10.327 We were down with hedonism before hangers became too high 0:03:10.367 --> 0:03:12.967 a price to pay. But we were also raised on 0:03:13.007 --> 0:03:16.407 a diet of cape moss, cigarettes and coffee. We were 0:03:16.447 --> 0:03:20.047 happy to talk openly about skipping meals, cutting carbs, cabbage, 0:03:20.047 --> 0:03:24.367 soup cleanses. We swam in a sea of celebrity diet tips, which, 0:03:24.407 --> 0:03:26.087 by the way, as someone who used to work on 0:03:26.127 --> 0:03:29.047 the magazines that ran those were often made up. I 0:03:29.047 --> 0:03:31.247 could tell you how many times a year Oprah Letta 0:03:31.287 --> 0:03:34.327 self eat potatoes, that posh spice would take the cherry 0:03:34.367 --> 0:03:37.047 tomatoes out of a salad, that the words guilty and 0:03:37.087 --> 0:03:40.247 pleasure were the only ones permitted to be synonymous with dessert. 0:03:40.927 --> 0:03:44.447 But also, we're busy on learning all of this because 0:03:44.487 --> 0:03:47.487 if like me, you love food and what you're gonna 0:03:47.527 --> 0:03:49.847 eat next and when and what is one of the 0:03:49.847 --> 0:03:52.687 things you think about the most, you know that the 0:03:52.807 --> 0:03:55.407 joy and pleasure and nourishment it brings to a life 0:03:55.567 --> 0:03:57.927 is not nothing. In fact, it might just be one 0:03:57.967 --> 0:04:00.447 of the most important things of all. So I'm talking 0:04:00.567 --> 0:04:04.287 food and the absolute necessity of small joys today with 0:04:04.447 --> 0:04:09.007 Virginia Treoli. Now, obviously I could be talking to Virginia 0:04:09.007 --> 0:04:11.527 a lot of different things. She's one of the most 0:04:11.607 --> 0:04:15.847 highly regarded journalists and broadcasters in Australia. She's a two 0:04:15.887 --> 0:04:19.167 time Walkley Award winner, and her voice on radio on 0:04:19.207 --> 0:04:22.047 television has lent authority and comfort to some of the 0:04:22.087 --> 0:04:25.487 most difficult moments we've lived through as a nation, which 0:04:25.527 --> 0:04:29.007 might be why today we're talking about joy. Because when 0:04:29.047 --> 0:04:31.567 you've lived till men and you have, as Virginia articulates 0:04:31.567 --> 0:04:35.087 in her new book, experienced an ordinary or extraordinary amount 0:04:35.127 --> 0:04:39.167 of loss, disappointment, fear, struggle, you know that it's life's 0:04:39.207 --> 0:04:42.407 little things that actually gets us through. That's what the 0:04:42.447 --> 0:04:44.807 book A Bit on the Side is about, because for 0:04:44.927 --> 0:04:47.247 her and for me, it has to be said, food 0:04:47.367 --> 0:04:49.887 is a part of that joy, and allowing yourself to 0:04:50.007 --> 0:04:52.647 lean into the small pleasures that make a life without 0:04:52.647 --> 0:04:56.807 guilt or shame is a radical act, really, particularly for women, 0:04:57.007 --> 0:04:59.967 when we've been taught that self sacrifice and deprivation is 0:05:00.007 --> 0:05:05.087 really our life. Slot So here's Virginia Trioli and me 0:05:05.327 --> 0:05:08.687 talking about food, but also really about love and hard 0:05:08.727 --> 0:05:12.167 fought pair parenthood and step parenthood and losing your own 0:05:12.247 --> 0:05:15.367 parents and wisdom and age and work and friendship and 0:05:15.367 --> 0:05:18.527 pleasure and letting go and those times when you just 0:05:18.607 --> 0:05:29.367 have to grow up, apologize and eat a shit sandwich. Virginia, 0:05:28.567 --> 0:05:30.807 I adored your book. 0:05:31.007 --> 0:05:31.927 Oh I'm so glad. 0:05:32.047 --> 0:05:33.847 And it's probably because it dips into two of my 0:05:34.047 --> 0:05:36.447 very favorite things and my obsessions, which is food. I 0:05:36.527 --> 0:05:41.207 am very interested in food. Good to hear and also 0:05:41.727 --> 0:05:44.447 just the sort of it's not a book that's kind 0:05:44.487 --> 0:05:46.327 of you're not trying to be a guru and pass 0:05:46.367 --> 0:05:48.367 off life wisdom in that way, but there are just 0:05:48.527 --> 0:05:52.167 really beautiful nuggets of wisdom studded through this book in 0:05:52.207 --> 0:05:55.447 an understated way that just absolutely punched me in the 0:05:55.447 --> 0:05:56.207 guts at times. 0:05:56.207 --> 0:05:58.527 I have to tell you, I'm happy to hear that 0:05:58.567 --> 0:06:01.207 as songs that you won't left with any major bruising. 0:06:00.927 --> 0:06:03.647 No, no major bruising. It was like foraging with a 0:06:03.647 --> 0:06:05.927 basket and you're like, Oh, that's a restaurant recommendation that 0:06:05.927 --> 0:06:07.807 I'm going to put on my wish list. That's a 0:06:07.847 --> 0:06:10.207 recipe I'm going to make green beans. I'm going to 0:06:10.287 --> 0:06:14.127 make those asap. Excellent and the cocktail, the Friday night 0:06:14.167 --> 0:06:19.727 fog perfect folded over yumen next to it, and then 0:06:19.767 --> 0:06:22.727 also these little bits of wisdom. So I wanted to 0:06:22.767 --> 0:06:25.607 start out conversation with some of those life lessons, because, 0:06:25.927 --> 0:06:29.407 as I say, you're not playing guru, but there's kind 0:06:29.407 --> 0:06:30.607 of a point of why it is. 0:06:30.887 --> 0:06:34.047 A bit on the side that's right, yes, and you're right. 0:06:34.207 --> 0:06:36.327 Sometimes the main course of your life can be a 0:06:36.367 --> 0:06:40.607 hard going and unappetizing thing. Sometimes it can be absolute rubbish. 0:06:40.767 --> 0:06:45.487 Your working life, your family, global catastrophes, personal tragedies, both 0:06:45.607 --> 0:06:48.807 ordinary and unexpected, all of it. You can have so 0:06:48.927 --> 0:06:51.807 little control over any of it, and the only choices 0:06:51.847 --> 0:06:54.247 you do seem to have are often rather small ones, 0:06:54.767 --> 0:06:58.567 minor seemingly insubstantial decisions that may add a bit of 0:06:58.607 --> 0:07:02.687 pleasure to a dense and demanding situation, just enough joy 0:07:02.967 --> 0:07:05.887 to get you across the line. Little bits on the side, 0:07:06.327 --> 0:07:08.647 this is wisdom. Tell me how you came to it. 0:07:09.407 --> 0:07:11.207 I think I came to it the same way as 0:07:11.447 --> 0:07:14.927 many of us come to it, through age and life, 0:07:14.967 --> 0:07:18.487 but also given the particularities of the last few years 0:07:19.167 --> 0:07:22.407 and the last decade, has made more and more sense 0:07:22.647 --> 0:07:25.127 of a thing that it turns out, and I realized 0:07:25.127 --> 0:07:27.967 when writing it has been a personal philosophy for me 0:07:28.767 --> 0:07:32.567 at the table and in the kitchen and serving food 0:07:32.567 --> 0:07:34.367 to people, because that's where my eyes have always gone to, 0:07:34.407 --> 0:07:36.287 the little bits on the side. And then it made 0:07:36.367 --> 0:07:39.687 more and more sense as the bigger picture got worse 0:07:39.727 --> 0:07:42.287 and worse, and it was something that I can't turn 0:07:42.327 --> 0:07:45.327 my eyes away from, and my entire working life has 0:07:45.367 --> 0:07:49.007 been engaged fully with it. All those years that I 0:07:49.047 --> 0:07:51.247 was working on news breakfast and getting up at half 0:07:51.287 --> 0:07:53.927 past two in the morning and having make up artists 0:07:54.007 --> 0:07:56.607 dabit my eyes at four a. You haven't lived until 0:07:56.647 --> 0:08:01.287 they've experienced that, and Michael Roland and I increasingly and 0:08:01.327 --> 0:08:04.887 repeatedly standing at what we came to call the wall 0:08:04.927 --> 0:08:08.527 of death, because on the really big mornings when we 0:08:08.567 --> 0:08:11.887 had awful, horrible breaking news, we would stand up from 0:08:11.927 --> 0:08:14.007 the desk and stand in front of a big plasma 0:08:14.047 --> 0:08:17.127 screen and break the news to the audience that another 0:08:17.167 --> 0:08:20.407 plane had gone down or that there was another terrorist attack. 0:08:20.887 --> 0:08:23.607 The accumulation of all of that and realizing that really 0:08:23.607 --> 0:08:28.407 the big picture was beyond my control made me realize 0:08:28.487 --> 0:08:31.847 that I had an eye for the smaller nuggets, for 0:08:32.407 --> 0:08:35.527 the glimmers, as I think people call them now, and 0:08:35.647 --> 0:08:38.287 it just made total sense to me that that was 0:08:38.327 --> 0:08:40.767 how I was living my life. I was living in 0:08:40.767 --> 0:08:43.007 the city that was the worst lockdown in the country. 0:08:43.807 --> 0:08:48.447 All plans disappeared, and I realized that a diary and 0:08:48.487 --> 0:08:51.087 the idea of plans is rather like a garden. If 0:08:51.087 --> 0:08:53.567 you don't have anything planted in there, if you haven't 0:08:53.567 --> 0:08:55.567 put some seeds in for that catch up with the 0:08:55.607 --> 0:09:00.407 girls in September and that destination wedding next year, nothing grows. 0:09:00.927 --> 0:09:03.167 And it was a time where nothing grew. You could 0:09:03.167 --> 0:09:05.567 open your diary and it was just barren earth from 0:09:05.607 --> 0:09:09.447 here to next year. And so it may be a 0:09:09.487 --> 0:09:13.367 seeker of small joys critical actually, if you weren't to 0:09:13.407 --> 0:09:15.327 fall over the edge. It was critical. 0:09:15.167 --> 0:09:19.927 Because obviously, in your profession, turning away from the news cycle, 0:09:20.047 --> 0:09:22.647 which is the advice were often given when we're facing 0:09:22.687 --> 0:09:25.287 overwhelming anxiety, was not an option, as you just said, 0:09:25.967 --> 0:09:28.647 and you write quite beautifully in the book about the 0:09:28.727 --> 0:09:33.327 time during Melbourne's lockdowns when you were driving to Present 0:09:33.647 --> 0:09:38.167 radio every morning and the streets were deserted, and you 0:09:38.247 --> 0:09:43.167 and your team would talk about food. 0:09:42.447 --> 0:09:44.167 Which talks about foods so much. 0:09:44.087 --> 0:09:47.567 Which turns us to those small joys, I suppose, and 0:09:47.607 --> 0:09:49.287 that it was a call from a listener that was 0:09:49.327 --> 0:09:52.807 sort of began to really form this book for you. Right. 0:09:53.167 --> 0:09:55.567 A woman called Mary called in and she was very anxious. 0:09:55.687 --> 0:09:57.847 I love how you say in this book how and 0:09:57.887 --> 0:09:59.407 I think that a lot of us who work I 0:09:59.407 --> 0:10:01.927 mean obviously very very different world, but a lot of 0:10:01.967 --> 0:10:05.927 us who work in a connection business that sounds that 0:10:06.007 --> 0:10:07.887 sounds terrible, but well in the media. 0:10:07.727 --> 0:10:08.367 No, that works. 0:10:08.447 --> 0:10:11.007 During that time, you right, I felt like the most 0:10:11.087 --> 0:10:16.047 underqualified psychologist in Melbourne, but we were in different ways 0:10:16.047 --> 0:10:18.927 the connectors. For we were during that time the. 0:10:18.927 --> 0:10:24.127 Most underqualified but overbooked. I forever had you know, clients 0:10:24.407 --> 0:10:27.647 in my book wanting my attention, and I had no qualifications, 0:10:27.887 --> 0:10:29.807 and I kept waiting for the experts to turn up 0:10:29.807 --> 0:10:32.007 but tap me on the shoulder and say we'll take 0:10:32.007 --> 0:10:33.847 it from here. And they never did. 0:10:34.407 --> 0:10:36.647 And a woman called Mary called you and she was 0:10:37.167 --> 0:10:39.807 obviously feeling very anxious, and you found yourself guiding her. 0:10:40.207 --> 0:10:41.887 Tell me a little bit about that moment and how 0:10:41.927 --> 0:10:43.607 it kind of informed your idea. 0:10:43.687 --> 0:10:45.567 It did. It crystallize a lot of things because we 0:10:45.607 --> 0:10:48.327 had a regular wonderful segment So Young for years, our 0:10:48.407 --> 0:10:52.087 talkback legal segment where David Whiting, who's kind of like 0:10:52.167 --> 0:10:55.247 Rumpole of the Bailey, and he would offer legal advice. 0:10:55.527 --> 0:10:57.887 But in this conversation, she was calling it for legal 0:10:57.887 --> 0:11:00.247 advice because she'd been to a local supermarket or in 0:11:00.287 --> 0:11:03.567 the very early days, distancing rules had been brought in, 0:11:04.007 --> 0:11:06.847 and she was furious because no one was observing the 0:11:06.927 --> 0:11:09.927 distancing rules and she'd been thrown out of the supermarket 0:11:09.927 --> 0:11:11.607 by the police, and she wanted to know, what am 0:11:11.607 --> 0:11:12.607 I rights here? What can I do? 0:11:13.087 --> 0:11:13.287 Well? 0:11:13.287 --> 0:11:16.287 What happened? Okay, well, they weren't observing the distancing rules. 0:11:16.327 --> 0:11:18.927 So I went home and I got the old bless 0:11:19.087 --> 0:11:23.207 and I got some masking tape and scissors, and I 0:11:23.327 --> 0:11:26.687 started marking out crosses on the floor at one and 0:11:26.727 --> 0:11:29.927 a half meter distances. And I could just hear the 0:11:29.967 --> 0:11:34.527 audience going, oh God, get her off, what a lunatic. 0:11:34.687 --> 0:11:36.967 Oh Karen, you know, and then the text me to 0:11:37.047 --> 0:11:40.047 just start coming through reflecting that. But as she's talking 0:11:40.047 --> 0:11:42.327 and David was about to launch into, you know, her 0:11:42.487 --> 0:11:46.247 legal rights or lack of therefore, I just jumped in 0:11:46.247 --> 0:11:49.567 and I just said, how are your anxiety levels, and 0:11:49.607 --> 0:11:52.287 she just fell apart. She just burst into tears. She 0:11:52.327 --> 0:11:55.647 had an elderly mum at home who was dealing with cancer, 0:11:56.047 --> 0:11:58.367 and so anything brought home to her because she was 0:11:58.367 --> 0:12:00.727 in the middle of treatment, she was immune suppressed, you know, 0:12:00.807 --> 0:12:03.007 could have taken her out. She had a sister who 0:12:03.127 --> 0:12:06.367 was clearly struggling, and so she Mary had full time 0:12:06.407 --> 0:12:09.327 care for her sister's daughter, for her niece, and she 0:12:09.367 --> 0:12:12.527 had her troubles as well, and she had her own life. 0:12:12.567 --> 0:12:14.887 And she said, you know, and I'm just so anxious, 0:12:14.927 --> 0:12:17.567 and I said, yeah, of course you are. You know, 0:12:17.687 --> 0:12:20.927 go home, look after yourselves. You cannot look after anybody else, 0:12:21.247 --> 0:12:24.407 you know, go home, focus on your own, focus on yourself. 0:12:24.447 --> 0:12:26.367 And I did. I felt like, you know, a totally 0:12:26.447 --> 0:12:29.727 underqualified person to be giving out this sort of life advice. 0:12:29.767 --> 0:12:32.847 But that's where we found ourselves. We found ourselves really 0:12:33.367 --> 0:12:37.407 peeled and proximate, really close to each other, leaning on 0:12:37.447 --> 0:12:39.927 each other in ways that we never thought we would 0:12:40.167 --> 0:12:43.927 or wanted to, leaning on strangers, being angered by each 0:12:43.927 --> 0:12:47.007 other by strangers, and this was the place that we 0:12:47.007 --> 0:12:48.207 were in for so long. 0:12:48.967 --> 0:12:52.327 Your love of food has been pretty much lifelong, it 0:12:52.327 --> 0:12:55.807 seems In this book, you talk about cooking with your mother, 0:12:56.367 --> 0:12:58.447 one of seven, You were one of seven, one of 0:12:58.447 --> 0:13:00.607 seven kids, and you write about I think you say, 0:13:00.647 --> 0:13:03.487 she's a very calm and capable woman, but that was 0:13:03.527 --> 0:13:05.047 a lot to deal with. And you're saying that the 0:13:05.087 --> 0:13:07.247 moments of cooking together in the kitchen were a moment 0:13:07.287 --> 0:13:09.807 of calm and connection. Yes, which I'm in awe of 0:13:09.887 --> 0:13:11.727 the fact that cooking for seven can be a moment 0:13:11.727 --> 0:13:16.367 of Clearly she was and then you obviously became sort 0:13:16.407 --> 0:13:19.447 of your eyes were open to all kinds of food, 0:13:19.447 --> 0:13:22.727 from travel, from going to Italy, which obviously is where 0:13:22.727 --> 0:13:25.567 your heritage is, and traveling around. What I love about 0:13:25.567 --> 0:13:27.887 this book in particular is it drips with all this 0:13:28.087 --> 0:13:31.727 love for food and bread and meat and sources and off. 0:13:32.247 --> 0:13:35.007 But there's no you don't in this book at all 0:13:35.047 --> 0:13:38.087 address It's not like guilty pleasures. You don't talk about 0:13:38.087 --> 0:13:41.967 it in terms of you know, I shouldn't. There's no rules, 0:13:42.007 --> 0:13:45.447 there's no diet talk. And that is no small thing 0:13:45.487 --> 0:13:48.207 when it comes to women and food, especially gen X women, 0:13:48.407 --> 0:13:51.447 because we kind of were brought up in an era 0:13:51.487 --> 0:13:53.247 where it was talked about a lot, you know, like 0:13:54.167 --> 0:13:57.567 absolute our weight our food, as we've found it so 0:13:57.687 --> 0:14:01.007 refreshing good that there is none of that in this book. 0:14:01.127 --> 0:14:02.127 Was it really deliberate? 0:14:02.767 --> 0:14:05.087 I actually didn't have to think about that for once, 0:14:05.127 --> 0:14:08.687 because yes, you're quite right, that's a narrative that I've 0:14:08.767 --> 0:14:12.727 learned to. We'll never leave my head, right, And I 0:14:12.847 --> 0:14:16.447 hear all the great actresses of our times talking about that, 0:14:16.527 --> 0:14:19.447 about oh the wasted space in my mind. If I 0:14:19.447 --> 0:14:21.207 could just get rid of it, to stop thinking about 0:14:21.207 --> 0:14:23.647 the size of my stomach. It's actually easier for me 0:14:24.167 --> 0:14:26.687 just to accept that it lives there, because like you, 0:14:27.127 --> 0:14:28.887 and a friend of mine reminded me of this the 0:14:28.927 --> 0:14:32.167 other day. We were swapping photographs of outfits and I said, 0:14:32.207 --> 0:14:33.967 I don't know what you think about this one, and 0:14:34.007 --> 0:14:36.607 she said, oh god, she said, are we ever going 0:14:36.647 --> 0:14:39.167 to get out of our heads? That phrase that we 0:14:39.167 --> 0:14:42.367 were taught so young and has never left us. But 0:14:42.447 --> 0:14:46.287 is it slimming? Is it slimming? Oh it's not slimming. 0:14:46.447 --> 0:14:50.487 Oh that's slimming. And I know that Jesse would just 0:14:50.487 --> 0:14:53.047 you know, roll her eyes hearing this and slap her 0:14:53.087 --> 0:14:56.567 forhead and then slap me. But I'm sorry, that's just 0:14:56.607 --> 0:14:58.407 a mantra that is just in my DNA. 0:14:58.647 --> 0:15:01.687 Jen Zad's and millennials think that our generation was more 0:15:01.727 --> 0:15:04.407 firmly marinated in diet culture, so it's just in our 0:15:04.927 --> 0:15:07.087 it is. Pause. But I always say to her, and 0:15:07.127 --> 0:15:08.767 I wonder if you I mean, I know, obviously you've 0:15:08.767 --> 0:15:10.487 got a young but he's probably a little young for 0:15:10.527 --> 0:15:12.447 this yet. But I would say to her, I don't 0:15:12.527 --> 0:15:14.447 know that it's gone away. For the young women I 0:15:14.487 --> 0:15:16.647 work with, they just don't talk about it. So they 0:15:16.647 --> 0:15:20.127 would never say to somebody, oh, that's really flattery. 0:15:19.727 --> 0:15:21.807 And slimmery, really slimmery, you'll ever say that? 0:15:22.527 --> 0:15:26.007 But on Instagram theil anyway. Was it a deliberate choice 0:15:26.007 --> 0:15:28.367 to shush that voice when you're writing about this pleasure? 0:15:28.607 --> 0:15:29.047 Or have you? 0:15:29.487 --> 0:15:29.527 Do? 0:15:29.567 --> 0:15:32.407 You think you've got quite a healthy, evolved attitude to that. 0:15:32.447 --> 0:15:34.367 In terms of food, I think I pitch backwards and 0:15:34.367 --> 0:15:37.607 fours as anybody does. And I absolutely have my days 0:15:37.767 --> 0:15:40.527 of self loathing, no question, and also my days where 0:15:40.527 --> 0:15:42.687 I say it to myself, well that'll do okay, we 0:15:42.807 --> 0:15:45.087 really are just doing some grilled chicken for a copp 0:15:45.087 --> 0:15:48.207 of days here because you've been hard at it. But 0:15:48.487 --> 0:15:52.087 in writing this book, no, that never entered my mind 0:15:52.167 --> 0:15:56.847 because this is a book about food and memory as well. 0:15:57.367 --> 0:16:00.567 And you know, Mussel Proust was right that that is 0:16:00.607 --> 0:16:04.567 the most powerful sense, taste and smell and memory and 0:16:04.607 --> 0:16:07.727 the way it just triggers the strongest feelings for you. 0:16:07.727 --> 0:16:10.647 You know, your first clear the very first time you 0:16:10.687 --> 0:16:13.127 went to Paris, your first bowl of pasta, the very 0:16:13.127 --> 0:16:15.647 first time you went to Italy. I never knew it 0:16:15.687 --> 0:16:18.567 could taste taste like this. This is how it's supposed 0:16:18.607 --> 0:16:20.447 to taste, and you spend the rest of your life 0:16:20.447 --> 0:16:23.607 trying to repeat that experience. So, because I'm talking about 0:16:24.007 --> 0:16:28.447 very powerful food memory connections for me and experiences, none 0:16:28.487 --> 0:16:30.007 of them are associated with guilty. 0:16:30.167 --> 0:16:33.927 Yes, and it's also I hope this isn't a judgy 0:16:34.007 --> 0:16:37.047 word these days, but it's also real food, like this 0:16:37.127 --> 0:16:41.647 is our food, cooked with love, with great ingredients. And yes, 0:16:41.727 --> 0:16:42.927 some of it's got a lot of cream in it, 0:16:42.967 --> 0:16:49.687 but anyway, who has olive oil. I know I'll be 0:16:49.727 --> 0:16:51.927 back with Virginia Trioli in a moment when she's going 0:16:52.007 --> 0:16:54.087 to tell me about that time she did have to 0:16:54.087 --> 0:17:01.447 eat the shit sandwich, the first little break. The book's 0:17:01.447 --> 0:17:04.647 about food, Virginia, But then it's also about life lessons, 0:17:04.687 --> 0:17:06.967 as I've said, and the one about the shit sandwich 0:17:07.047 --> 0:17:11.047 is really interesting because it's about copying to things, owning them, 0:17:11.047 --> 0:17:14.207 and apologizing when you need to. And I want you 0:17:14.247 --> 0:17:16.887 to tell me about the experience that you describe in 0:17:16.927 --> 0:17:20.767 the book about your first and worst shit sandwich. 0:17:20.927 --> 0:17:23.407 I mean, I've had a few, right, and I don't 0:17:23.527 --> 0:17:26.167 expect them to stop being served to me for the 0:17:26.207 --> 0:17:27.887 rest of my life. I think they all keep coming. 0:17:28.167 --> 0:17:30.407 But the biggest one, it was one of my own making, 0:17:31.007 --> 0:17:33.927 was when I was caught on air doing the twirly 0:17:34.127 --> 0:17:38.887 looney face finger to barneyby Joyce, who was he was 0:17:38.927 --> 0:17:40.127 not a sentence and then he was a member of 0:17:40.167 --> 0:17:44.927 Parliament and a minister, and the camera cut back to 0:17:44.967 --> 0:17:48.167 me before I knew it was going to and I 0:17:48.247 --> 0:17:51.527 was mugging for the crew and for everyone in the studio. 0:17:51.847 --> 0:17:53.767 I was high as a cart and silly as it wi. 0:17:53.807 --> 0:17:57.407 All that day. I just returned from another like what 0:17:57.527 --> 0:18:00.447 felt like round one hundred and fifty two of IVF 0:18:00.567 --> 0:18:03.567 to try and get pregnant yet again. And we had 0:18:03.607 --> 0:18:07.327 an embryo that worked, and it had been planted, and 0:18:07.367 --> 0:18:08.887 this time maybe it was going to work, and I 0:18:09.047 --> 0:18:11.367 was hire as a cart and I was being really 0:18:11.407 --> 0:18:15.287 ridiculous and unprofessional all that morning, and the camera caught me. 0:18:16.127 --> 0:18:19.527 And I remember in that moment just thinking, I've just 0:18:19.607 --> 0:18:23.607 killed my career dead. I've killed it. The ABC was 0:18:23.607 --> 0:18:24.927 at that you know in this from time to time, 0:18:24.967 --> 0:18:27.207 but that time was really locked in, you know, yet 0:18:27.247 --> 0:18:29.767 another cultural battle, if you like. We were under attack by 0:18:29.767 --> 0:18:32.127 the Coalition government at that time. Everyone was on the 0:18:32.167 --> 0:18:37.167 lookout for perceived, real or bias, and that was seized 0:18:37.247 --> 0:18:38.487 upon as an example of that. 0:18:38.887 --> 0:18:41.007 Did you realize it in the moment that it had 0:18:41.047 --> 0:18:44.247 gone to air? Yes, yes, because I could see them, 0:18:44.247 --> 0:18:44.687 I could. 0:18:44.487 --> 0:18:49.247 See the monitor and it was I was I remember 0:18:49.487 --> 0:18:52.807 the entire studio just stopped. We all saw it and 0:18:52.847 --> 0:18:55.447 there was absolutely no way around it. 0:18:56.087 --> 0:18:58.607 So what was the advice for how to deal with that? 0:18:58.687 --> 0:19:01.407 And how did you decide you knew you had to 0:19:01.447 --> 0:19:01.927 deal with it. 0:19:02.447 --> 0:19:05.247 I came out of the studio just knowing that there 0:19:05.327 --> 0:19:07.207 was one thing to do here, and that was to 0:19:07.247 --> 0:19:11.007 pick up the phone immediately until apologized to varnerby Joyce. 0:19:12.247 --> 0:19:14.847 There was a slight suggestion from another quarter that maybe 0:19:14.887 --> 0:19:16.927 it be handled another way, and I remember there was 0:19:16.967 --> 0:19:20.127 a little voice in sign be going don't don't. It 0:19:20.207 --> 0:19:23.047 seems an easy option, an easy way out. Don't take it. 0:19:23.927 --> 0:19:27.087 And I rang for some editorial advice from our head 0:19:27.127 --> 0:19:30.087 of Editoral Standards, Alan Sunderland, who's one of the most 0:19:30.487 --> 0:19:33.407 calm under fire people you'll ever meet, who said, well, 0:19:33.487 --> 0:19:36.167 you just call him and you apologize. And I did, 0:19:36.487 --> 0:19:39.287 and he accepted my apology straight away, and he laughed 0:19:39.287 --> 0:19:41.247 about it and said, yes, sometimes I do say things 0:19:41.287 --> 0:19:43.567 are a bit ridiculous, which is awfully gracious of him. 0:19:43.807 --> 0:19:46.527 I think he accepted my apology before he'd actually seen 0:19:46.567 --> 0:19:49.447 the replay. I think he recruited that in time. I 0:19:49.487 --> 0:19:51.727 didn't call you back then They're like, hang on a minute, 0:19:51.847 --> 0:19:54.167 I don't know you were doing that. And I know 0:19:54.247 --> 0:19:56.807 he was crossing me for a long time afterwards. But 0:19:56.927 --> 0:20:00.367 then then the shit storm began, because of course it 0:20:00.447 --> 0:20:03.607 was all over the media. The news limited papers had 0:20:03.607 --> 0:20:06.607 a field day with me for weeks and weeks and weeks. 0:20:06.967 --> 0:20:09.207 I had people calling for my head and my resignation. 0:20:09.327 --> 0:20:12.407 And I did one smart thing. I just did not 0:20:12.447 --> 0:20:14.287 look at any of it. I made sure I didn't 0:20:14.287 --> 0:20:15.927 read it. I didn't see it, because I'm the kind 0:20:15.927 --> 0:20:17.807 of person that if it's in my head, I'll it'll 0:20:17.807 --> 0:20:19.287 never leave me. I won't get it out. 0:20:19.727 --> 0:20:21.447 And that's very disciplined. It's hard to do. 0:20:21.607 --> 0:20:23.087 Had to had to do it. I just knew I 0:20:23.127 --> 0:20:24.727 had to do that. And then the next day I 0:20:24.807 --> 0:20:27.847 made three apologies on air, one in the six o'clock hour, 0:20:27.927 --> 0:20:29.287 one in the sex o'clock hour, one in the eight 0:20:29.287 --> 0:20:32.207 o'clock out And for each apology, I remember my co 0:20:32.287 --> 0:20:34.327 host would get up and leave the couch and go 0:20:34.367 --> 0:20:37.047 and stand over there behind the camera while I sat 0:20:37.127 --> 0:20:39.127 on the couch all my and I never felt so 0:20:39.207 --> 0:20:42.527 alone in all my life, and read out my apology again. 0:20:42.767 --> 0:20:44.847 But I just how do you eat a shit sandwich? 0:20:44.927 --> 0:20:48.127 You eat it, you eat it, and you don't complain 0:20:48.167 --> 0:20:48.607 about it. 0:20:48.607 --> 0:20:52.087 It's interesting because it doesn't feel that there's a lot 0:20:52.087 --> 0:20:53.967 in our culture at the minute of trying to avoid 0:20:54.007 --> 0:20:54.847