1 00:00:14,773 --> 00:00:17,324 Speaker 1: I'm Laura Brodnik, host of the Spill, which is Mamma 2 00:00:17,324 --> 00:00:20,114 Speaker 1: Mia's daily entertainment and pop culture podcast. 3 00:00:20,323 --> 00:00:23,444 Speaker 2: And I'm Claire Murphy. I'm the host of True Crime Conversations, 4 00:00:23,524 --> 00:00:26,243 Speaker 2: which is our weekly true crime podcast, speaking to the 5 00:00:26,243 --> 00:00:29,083 Speaker 2: people who know the most about these crimes. Well, I 6 00:00:29,083 --> 00:00:31,473 Speaker 2: am the host when Gemma Bath is not on maternity leave, 7 00:00:31,524 --> 00:00:33,604 Speaker 2: and she will be returning, never fear. 8 00:00:34,094 --> 00:00:37,604 Speaker 2: But we know just how popular true crime is, whether 9 00:00:37,604 --> 00:00:39,473 Speaker 2: you listen to it on a podcast, whether you watch 10 00:00:39,473 --> 00:00:43,753 Speaker 2: it on your streaming service of choice. But what about 11 00:00:43,753 --> 00:00:47,193 Speaker 2: when crime meets drama? And that is what we are 12 00:00:47,193 --> 00:00:48,143 Speaker 2: talking about today. 13 00:00:48,474 --> 00:00:50,713 Speaker 1: Yes, that is what we're here to discuss. So, we 14 00:00:50,713 --> 00:00:53,994 Speaker 1: are talking about the new Disney Plus series, The Twisted 15 00:00:53,994 --> 00:00:56,474 Speaker 1: Tale of Amanda Knox. And if you're listening to this 16 00:00:56,474 --> 00:00:58,753 Speaker 1: through the spill feed, we have heard all of your comment. 17 00:00:59,393 --> 00:01:02,073 Speaker 1: that you want more true crime series and you want 18 00:01:02,073 --> 00:01:05,033 Speaker 1: to kind of dissect the actors and the production, the 19 00:01:05,033 --> 00:01:07,303 Speaker 1: behind the scenes facts, but you also want to know 20 00:01:07,634 --> 00:01:09,794 Speaker 1: what happened in the real life case and where those 21 00:01:09,794 --> 00:01:12,393 Speaker 1: people are now and why these stories were chosen to 22 00:01:12,393 --> 00:01:15,034 Speaker 1: be told in a dramatic fashion. So we're going to 23 00:01:15,034 --> 00:01:18,354 Speaker 1: be deep diving into that in today's episode. So Claire, 24 00:01:18,394 --> 00:01:21,223 Speaker 1: as our true crime expert, you're gonna take us through 25 00:01:21,223 --> 00:01:23,634 Speaker 1: the Amanda Knox case and what happened from the beginning. 26 00:01:23,833 --> 00:01:25,954 Speaker 1: Because I think for a lot of people like myself, 27 00:01:26,074 --> 00:01:28,873 Speaker 1: I have such a memory of watching this unfold on 28 00:01:28,873 --> 00:01:31,433 Speaker 1: TV at the time, but there's so much more to 29 00:01:31,433 --> 00:01:33,704 Speaker 1: this case, I think, and it became a lot more 30 00:01:34,034 --> 00:01:35,693 Speaker 1: in depth than a lot of people realize. 31 00:01:35,913 --> 00:01:39,344 Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you got your information about this case 32 00:01:39,344 --> 00:01:42,714 Speaker 2: from the news media, then that may have actually twisted 33 00:01:42,714 --> 00:01:44,714 Speaker 2: the way you might see it or view it. So 34 00:01:44,714 --> 00:01:46,074 Speaker 2: we're gonna get to the bottom of that as well. 35 00:01:46,113 --> 00:01:48,433 Speaker 2: But I'll step you through where this all began. 36 00:01:48,763 --> 00:01:51,594 Speaker 2: OK, so first thing I need to warn you is 37 00:01:51,594 --> 00:01:55,513 Speaker 2: that this case spans years. So it went on for 38 00:01:55,513 --> 00:01:58,274 Speaker 2: a really long time. So bear with us, there's a 39 00:01:58,274 --> 00:02:01,994 Speaker 2: little bit to get through. It started off in September 2007, 40 00:02:02,074 --> 00:02:05,433 Speaker 2: that is when Meredith Kercher, who was a British student, 41 00:02:05,674 --> 00:02:08,954 Speaker 2: she was spending a year studying abroad in Italy, and 42 00:02:08,954 --> 00:02:12,254 Speaker 2: she moved into a share accommodation, which is the villa 43 00:02:12,254 --> 00:02:16,513 Speaker 2: at 7 Via della Pergola in Perugia. And then later 44 00:02:16,513 --> 00:02:18,263 Speaker 2: that same month, just 10 days later, 45 00:02:18,573 --> 00:02:21,954 Speaker 2: Amanda Knox, who was an American student doing the same thing, 46 00:02:22,114 --> 00:02:24,554 Speaker 2: spending a year in Italy, she moved into the same address. 47 00:02:24,713 --> 00:02:27,114 Speaker 2: So there are 4 young girls living in this small 48 00:02:27,114 --> 00:02:30,823 Speaker 2: apartment or small villa. There are some boys living in 49 00:02:30,823 --> 00:02:33,664 Speaker 2: the flat downstairs. So they all share this villa together. 50 00:02:34,034 --> 00:02:38,924 Speaker 2: On October 25, Amanda meets a young Italian boy called Raffaele. Now, 51 00:02:38,954 --> 00:02:42,864 Speaker 2: they met at a concert, they are immediately in love. 52 00:02:43,233 --> 00:02:45,633 Speaker 2: They do that honeymoon period where they 53 00:02:45,687 --> 00:02:49,157 Speaker 2: Spent literally every minute of every day together. She then 54 00:02:49,157 --> 00:02:52,437 Speaker 2: starts staying at his house, essentially every night. She has 55 00:02:52,437 --> 00:02:54,306 Speaker 2: a job, so she goes and works at a bar, 56 00:02:54,437 --> 00:02:57,077 Speaker 2: a local bar, and she is studying as well, so 57 00:02:57,077 --> 00:02:59,836 Speaker 2: she's doing that too, but essentially her and Raffaeli now 58 00:02:59,836 --> 00:03:00,746 Speaker 2: become inseparable. 59 00:03:00,996 --> 00:03:02,957 Speaker 1: Yes. And in the show, it was depicted they had 60 00:03:02,957 --> 00:03:05,836 Speaker 1: only been together about a week before the events of 61 00:03:05,836 --> 00:03:07,836 Speaker 1: Meredith's murder took place. And I, I saw a lot 62 00:03:07,836 --> 00:03:10,036 Speaker 1: of feedback from the show of people thinking that that 63 00:03:10,036 --> 00:03:12,756 Speaker 1: was added into the story for extra dramatic effect, or 64 00:03:12,810 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: Make their relationship look more like a whirlwind. But they actually, 65 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: isn't that correct? They only were together really for one 66 00:03:18,799 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: week before their whole world blew up with these accusations. 67 00:03:21,399 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: Absolutely 68 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 2: true. So they literally spent a week together out in 69 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 2: the world as a new couple before they were thrown 70 00:03:27,679 --> 00:03:31,730 Speaker 2: into all of this drama. So, come November 1, so 71 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:37,319 Speaker 2: sometime after 8:30 p.m., Meredith Kercher was murdered in the 72 00:03:37,319 --> 00:03:39,730 Speaker 2: villa she shares with her flatmates. 73 00:03:40,314 --> 00:03:44,504 Speaker 2: Amanda and Raffaele are at Raffaele's apartment, and the two 74 00:03:44,504 --> 00:03:48,013 Speaker 2: of them both switched their phone off that night around 75 00:03:48,013 --> 00:03:52,213 Speaker 2: the same time that Meredith is murdered. Now, Amanda explains 76 00:03:52,213 --> 00:03:55,584 Speaker 2: that she had been messaging with her boss. She was 77 00:03:55,584 --> 00:03:57,543 Speaker 2: maybe gonna go into work that night, and he messaged 78 00:03:57,543 --> 00:04:00,213 Speaker 2: her to say that she didn't have to come in. 79 00:04:00,293 --> 00:04:02,463 Speaker 2: And she was like, Great. This means I get to 80 00:04:02,463 --> 00:04:04,754 Speaker 2: spend more time with my brand new, very handsome young 81 00:04:04,754 --> 00:04:06,023 Speaker 2: man boyfriend in his apartment. 82 00:04:06,463 --> 00:04:09,793 Speaker 2: And so they watched a movie and they ate some 83 00:04:09,793 --> 00:04:14,554 Speaker 2: food and they smoked a joint together, and Raffaele had 84 00:04:14,554 --> 00:04:16,633 Speaker 2: also turned his phone off because he didn't want to 85 00:04:16,633 --> 00:04:17,954 Speaker 2: speak to his dad. He spoke to his dad every 86 00:04:17,954 --> 00:04:19,713 Speaker 2: night on the phone. He's like, No, I want the 87 00:04:19,713 --> 00:04:21,743 Speaker 2: two of us to just spend uninterrupted time together. 88 00:04:22,694 --> 00:04:26,694 Speaker 2: This is very important, because police see that as in 89 00:04:26,694 --> 00:04:30,303 Speaker 2: this day and age where technology is used so frequently 90 00:04:30,653 --> 00:04:33,403 Speaker 2: to track us, to find out where we are, to 91 00:04:33,734 --> 00:04:37,134 Speaker 2: marry up locations to potential crimes, that if you turn 92 00:04:37,134 --> 00:04:40,053 Speaker 2: your phone off, it almost looks like an admission of guilt, 93 00:04:40,613 --> 00:04:42,653 Speaker 2: that you have done something wrong. So that is part 94 00:04:42,653 --> 00:04:43,764 Speaker 2: of the case against them. 95 00:04:44,164 --> 00:04:46,833 Speaker 2: She also sends a message to her boss before turning 96 00:04:46,833 --> 00:04:49,564 Speaker 2: her phone off that says, Thanks, I'll see you later. 97 00:04:50,433 --> 00:04:54,594 Speaker 2: That is interpreted by police very differently, had they not 98 00:04:54,594 --> 00:04:58,393 Speaker 2: been Italian, if English had been their first language, we 99 00:04:58,393 --> 00:05:00,314 Speaker 2: say that all the time. See you later. It's part 100 00:05:00,314 --> 00:05:04,423 Speaker 2: of our vernacular, but in Italy, it's taken more literally, 101 00:05:04,594 --> 00:05:05,724 Speaker 1: as if they had a plan. 102 00:05:05,784 --> 00:05:08,493 Speaker 1: To see each other later. And when we're watching the series, 103 00:05:08,574 --> 00:05:11,234 Speaker 1: you see Amanda trying to explain to the police that 104 00:05:11,234 --> 00:05:14,213 Speaker 1: it's just another form of saying goodbye and how quickly 105 00:05:14,213 --> 00:05:17,403 Speaker 1: that leads to her being implicated, because again, they're thinking 106 00:05:17,403 --> 00:05:19,694 Speaker 1: that she's making a plan to meet up with him. And, 107 00:05:19,893 --> 00:05:22,653 Speaker 1: and is he involved or did she leave the apartment. 108 00:05:22,764 --> 00:05:25,213 Speaker 2: And the fact that her boss is a certain nationality 109 00:05:25,213 --> 00:05:27,294 Speaker 2: also plays into this. We'll get to that in a second. 110 00:05:27,764 --> 00:05:30,414 Speaker 2: So, it's the next morning, Amanda's woken up, the night 111 00:05:30,414 --> 00:05:32,694 Speaker 2: before there'd been a spill or a leaking something at 112 00:05:32,694 --> 00:05:34,333 Speaker 2: Raffaele's house. She wants to go home, she needs to 113 00:05:34,333 --> 00:05:37,083 Speaker 2: get a mop cause he doesn't own one. Typical man. 114 00:05:37,254 --> 00:05:39,294 Speaker 2: And then she also wants to like have a shower 115 00:05:39,294 --> 00:05:42,764 Speaker 2: and just get changed, and she will later on explain 116 00:05:42,764 --> 00:05:44,963 Speaker 2: why she did that to Raffaele in a very beautiful, 117 00:05:45,094 --> 00:05:47,004 Speaker 2: lovely scene where she'd like, I just wanted to look 118 00:05:47,004 --> 00:05:49,653 Speaker 2: pretty for you and wear a dress. But so she 119 00:05:49,653 --> 00:05:52,414 Speaker 2: goes home and the front door is open. 120 00:05:52,944 --> 00:05:55,664 Speaker 2: Which is not unusual because the front door that they 121 00:05:55,664 --> 00:05:57,824 Speaker 2: had of this villa was a little bit dodgy. You 122 00:05:57,824 --> 00:06:00,574 Speaker 2: had to physically keylock it for it to stay shut. 123 00:06:00,863 --> 00:06:03,064 Speaker 2: And if you didn't do that, the wind would sometimes 124 00:06:03,064 --> 00:06:05,863 Speaker 2: just blow it open. So, Amanda's thinking, one of my 125 00:06:05,863 --> 00:06:07,664 Speaker 2: flatmates has just run down the street to grab something, 126 00:06:07,743 --> 00:06:09,863 Speaker 2: didn't think to key lock the door. It's blown open 127 00:06:09,863 --> 00:06:13,474 Speaker 2: by itself. So she steps inside. She walks through to 128 00:06:13,474 --> 00:06:16,064 Speaker 2: her own room, she goes to have a shower, she 129 00:06:16,064 --> 00:06:19,023 Speaker 2: steps out onto the bath mat and realizes there's some 130 00:06:19,023 --> 00:06:20,423 Speaker 2: blood on the bath mat. 131 00:06:21,264 --> 00:06:23,903 Speaker 2: She also notices a little bit of it on the 132 00:06:23,903 --> 00:06:27,984 Speaker 2: sink area too. Now, for anyone who's lived in a 133 00:06:27,984 --> 00:06:29,344 Speaker 2: share house full of women. 134 00:06:30,134 --> 00:06:32,403 Speaker 2: We know the blood sometimes is a part of our 135 00:06:32,403 --> 00:06:35,803 Speaker 2: day to day life. Was this menstrual blood? Did someone 136 00:06:35,803 --> 00:06:37,993 Speaker 2: cut themselves shaving? It's in the bathroom. 137 00:06:38,224 --> 00:06:40,354 Speaker 1: That's it. There's so many possibilities that it could be 138 00:06:40,354 --> 00:06:42,143 Speaker 1: so many people using that bathroom. 139 00:06:42,393 --> 00:06:44,643 Speaker 2: Exactly right. So she goes, Ooh, that's kind of gross, 140 00:06:44,764 --> 00:06:48,803 Speaker 2: but doesn't think that automatically jump to someone's been murdered 141 00:06:48,803 --> 00:06:52,523 Speaker 2: in the house. She does notice, though, that someone has 142 00:06:52,523 --> 00:06:54,683 Speaker 2: gone to the toilet. They have done a poo and 143 00:06:54,683 --> 00:06:55,923 Speaker 2: they haven't flushed it. 144 00:06:56,433 --> 00:06:59,923 Speaker 2: And that then is the first time she fully realizes 145 00:07:00,294 --> 00:07:03,534 Speaker 2: that something's not right. Which is interesting because if you 146 00:07:03,534 --> 00:07:05,574 Speaker 2: live in a house full of women, sometimes women can 147 00:07:05,574 --> 00:07:07,414 Speaker 2: be pretty gross, especially when it comes to menstrual blood, 148 00:07:07,453 --> 00:07:09,574 Speaker 2: but there are certain things that she knows her flatmates 149 00:07:09,574 --> 00:07:12,493 Speaker 2: just would not do, and that is leave an unflushed 150 00:07:12,493 --> 00:07:13,403 Speaker 2: poo in the toilet. 151 00:07:14,544 --> 00:07:20,303 Speaker 2: So she leaves, and she asks Raffaele to come back 152 00:07:20,623 --> 00:07:24,314 Speaker 2: to the house, and she's like, I don't understand what's happened. 153 00:07:24,863 --> 00:07:28,653 Speaker 2: She goes back inside, realizes that one of her other flatmates, 154 00:07:28,664 --> 00:07:31,373 Speaker 2: rooms has been broken into. So the window is broken 155 00:07:31,664 --> 00:07:34,384 Speaker 2: and there's glass on the ground. She's unsure if she's 156 00:07:34,384 --> 00:07:36,703 Speaker 2: been robbed because it's her flatmate's room, so she's not 157 00:07:36,703 --> 00:07:39,183 Speaker 2: sure if anything is missing, but she thinks someone has 158 00:07:39,183 --> 00:07:41,134 Speaker 2: maybe been in the house. And then when she goes 159 00:07:41,134 --> 00:07:42,384 Speaker 2: back past the bathroom, 160 00:07:42,963 --> 00:07:44,963 Speaker 2: It looks like the poo has been flushed. She doesn't 161 00:07:44,963 --> 00:07:46,523 Speaker 2: go in and have a look at it, but it 162 00:07:46,523 --> 00:07:48,363 Speaker 2: looks like it's been flushed, so she goes, Oh my God, 163 00:07:48,414 --> 00:07:50,083 Speaker 2: that person must have been in the house while I 164 00:07:50,083 --> 00:07:53,044 Speaker 2: was in the house. So she starts to really freak out. 165 00:07:53,164 --> 00:07:55,444 Speaker 2: Raffaele turns up and they have a look, and they 166 00:07:55,444 --> 00:07:58,514 Speaker 2: realize that Meredith, one of her flatmates, her door is locked. 167 00:07:58,844 --> 00:08:00,953 Speaker 2: They knock on it, they call her name, she doesn't answer, 168 00:08:01,044 --> 00:08:02,083 Speaker 2: they think she's not there. 169 00:08:02,433 --> 00:08:05,113 Speaker 2: But they're not sure what's going on. They call police, 170 00:08:05,484 --> 00:08:07,724 Speaker 2: but two officers do turn up, but they're not the 171 00:08:07,724 --> 00:08:11,234 Speaker 2: police they've actually called. Yes. And this is true. 2 172 00:08:11,234 --> 00:08:15,044 Speaker 2: of the fraud investigation police turn up because they have 173 00:08:15,044 --> 00:08:18,604 Speaker 2: found 2 mobile phones thrown into someone's back garden. 174 00:08:19,504 --> 00:08:22,664 Speaker 2: Now, they believe that the phones belong to one of 175 00:08:22,664 --> 00:08:25,743 Speaker 2: the other flatmates, not Meredith, but that is due to 176 00:08:25,743 --> 00:08:29,094 Speaker 2: a SIM card being shared amongst the girls. They actually 177 00:08:29,094 --> 00:08:32,893 Speaker 2: belong to Meredith, and so they've been taken from her 178 00:08:32,893 --> 00:08:35,514 Speaker 2: and thrown over the back fence of someone's property. So 179 00:08:35,514 --> 00:08:38,224 Speaker 2: these fraud cops turn up and they start to ask 180 00:08:38,224 --> 00:08:40,064 Speaker 2: them about the phones and they're like, Hang on, we 181 00:08:40,064 --> 00:08:42,104 Speaker 2: think someone's broken into our house. And so these guys 182 00:08:42,104 --> 00:08:43,984 Speaker 2: automatically become in charge of this crime scene. 183 00:08:45,083 --> 00:08:49,083 Speaker 2: They end up calling in investigators because when the other 184 00:08:49,083 --> 00:08:52,244 Speaker 2: flatmates come home, and they all realize that Meredith's door 185 00:08:52,244 --> 00:08:55,153 Speaker 2: is still locked, one of these guys kicks the door 186 00:08:55,153 --> 00:08:59,813 Speaker 2: open and finds a body. Now, Meredith, 187 00:09:00,383 --> 00:09:03,604 Speaker 2: Has been raped, she's had her throat cut. There is 188 00:09:03,604 --> 00:09:08,633 Speaker 2: blood everywhere. She's covered by her bedding. So you can 189 00:09:08,633 --> 00:09:11,523 Speaker 2: see in the crime scene photos that one of her 190 00:09:11,523 --> 00:09:13,563 Speaker 2: feet is sticking out, and you can see just the 191 00:09:13,563 --> 00:09:15,963 Speaker 2: top of her head, but there was a lot of blood. 192 00:09:16,443 --> 00:09:20,114 Speaker 2: And so that is when the homicide team is brought 193 00:09:20,114 --> 00:09:21,883 Speaker 2: in and they start to investigate. 194 00:09:22,833 --> 00:09:27,573 Speaker 2: Now, this is where we have to understand, watching the 195 00:09:27,573 --> 00:09:31,633 Speaker 2: twisted tale of Amanda Knox. This is told from Amanda's 196 00:09:31,633 --> 00:09:35,304 Speaker 2: perspective and not from the police's perspective. 197 00:09:35,753 --> 00:09:38,383 Speaker 2: The difference in the way that the Italian justice system 198 00:09:38,383 --> 00:09:40,893 Speaker 2: works is very different to, say, the American or the 199 00:09:40,893 --> 00:09:43,934 Speaker 2: Australian justice system. So the person who will be prosecuting 200 00:09:43,934 --> 00:09:47,693 Speaker 2: you in court is the same person who investigates the crime. 201 00:09:48,174 --> 00:09:50,974 Speaker 2: So Mignini, who is a real man, is a real character, 202 00:09:51,333 --> 00:09:53,403 Speaker 2: so he's a real person, the character in the show. 203 00:09:53,854 --> 00:09:57,164 Speaker 2: So he comes on board as like the lead investigator, 204 00:09:57,174 --> 00:09:59,094 Speaker 2: but he's also gonna be prosecuting this in court. 205 00:10:00,023 --> 00:10:03,253 Speaker 2: There is a detective who is also a real person, 206 00:10:03,383 --> 00:10:07,624 Speaker 2: a woman who takes an immediate dislike to Amanda. She's 207 00:10:07,624 --> 00:10:11,054 Speaker 2: one of the first to question her, and it's very 208 00:10:11,054 --> 00:10:15,463 Speaker 2: obvious that she distrusts Amanda's reaction to the crime. 209 00:10:16,143 --> 00:10:19,164 Speaker 2: And we can see this, it has been documented. Amanda 210 00:10:19,164 --> 00:10:22,684 Speaker 2: does stand outside with everybody else when the investigative team 211 00:10:22,684 --> 00:10:23,234 Speaker 2: comes in. 212 00:10:23,523 --> 00:10:25,794 Speaker 2: And she's with Raffaele, and you've got to remember they've 213 00:10:25,794 --> 00:10:28,994 Speaker 2: been together for days. They're still in the honeymoon period. 214 00:10:29,073 --> 00:10:32,403 Speaker 2: He's comforting her. She's like smiling and laughing with him, 215 00:10:32,434 --> 00:10:35,073 Speaker 2: and like, they're cuddling and kissing a little bit and 216 00:10:35,073 --> 00:10:38,344 Speaker 2: it all seems a little bit not right to the detectives. 217 00:10:38,594 --> 00:10:42,273 Speaker 2: They're like, if my flatmate, who I supposedly am quite 218 00:10:42,273 --> 00:10:44,034 Speaker 2: close to, even though we've only lived together for a 219 00:10:44,034 --> 00:10:48,554 Speaker 2: little while, if we are seeing it right, she's not 220 00:10:48,554 --> 00:10:52,713 Speaker 2: fazed by her roommate being brutally murdered in her home. 221 00:10:53,484 --> 00:10:56,804 Speaker 2: So, that is when things start to shift back to 222 00:10:56,804 --> 00:11:00,523 Speaker 2: the police station. They're all brought in for questioning. Meredith's friends, 223 00:11:00,643 --> 00:11:05,323 Speaker 2: the other roommates, Amanda and Raffaele, are questioned, and it 224 00:11:05,323 --> 00:11:09,083 Speaker 2: seems like at the beginning, they're already suspecting her. They 225 00:11:09,083 --> 00:11:11,443 Speaker 2: do ask her questions about her whereabouts, and they try 226 00:11:11,443 --> 00:11:14,484 Speaker 2: and find alibis. There is a lot because she's there 227 00:11:14,484 --> 00:11:17,963 Speaker 2: all day. And then it's noted that she's sitting in 228 00:11:17,963 --> 00:11:21,244 Speaker 2: Raffaele's lap in the waiting room in the police station. 229 00:11:21,724 --> 00:11:24,854 Speaker 2: And again, detectives are looking at this like this is 230 00:11:24,854 --> 00:11:27,374 Speaker 2: not the behavior of somebody whose friend has just been murdered. 231 00:11:28,374 --> 00:11:30,974 Speaker 2: Meredith's British friends are there, and they too are looking 232 00:11:30,974 --> 00:11:34,153 Speaker 2: at this thinking, why is she acting this way when 233 00:11:34,153 --> 00:11:37,013 Speaker 2: Meredith has just been brutally slain in their home that 234 00:11:37,013 --> 00:11:39,653 Speaker 2: they share together. So there's a lot of questions being 235 00:11:39,653 --> 00:11:42,643 Speaker 2: asked about why Amanda did not act a certain way 236 00:11:42,643 --> 00:11:44,294 Speaker 2: in the aftermath of Meredith's death. 237 00:11:45,094 --> 00:11:47,804 Speaker 2: And so then the questioning amps up a little bit 238 00:11:47,804 --> 00:11:49,883 Speaker 2: from detectives, and then they allow her to go home, 239 00:11:49,974 --> 00:11:53,083 Speaker 2: but it's already the next day almost, and she's exhausted, 240 00:11:53,253 --> 00:11:55,044 Speaker 2: and they tell her, You need to be back here 241 00:11:55,494 --> 00:11:57,773 Speaker 2: within a few hours. So she goes home, has a shower, 242 00:11:58,054 --> 00:11:59,573 Speaker 2: comes back again, doesn't go home, it's a crime scene, 243 00:11:59,614 --> 00:12:03,443 Speaker 2: she goes to Raffaele's has a shower, comes back. She's exhausted. 244 00:12:04,054 --> 00:12:07,684 Speaker 2: She has had very little sleep. She doesn't really know 245 00:12:07,684 --> 00:12:08,414 Speaker 2: what's going on. 246 00:12:09,224 --> 00:12:12,503 Speaker 2: And she's interrogated by police again and again and again. 247 00:12:12,963 --> 00:12:15,273 Speaker 2: And this is the interesting part of this whole thing 248 00:12:15,273 --> 00:12:15,963 Speaker 2: is that, 249 00:12:16,813 --> 00:12:20,484 Speaker 2: As I said, this drama series is told from Amanda's perspective. 250 00:12:21,374 --> 00:12:23,614 Speaker 2: What is also true is that police did not record 251 00:12:23,614 --> 00:12:27,573 Speaker 2: this interrogation. Yes. We will never know exactly what happened 252 00:12:27,573 --> 00:12:29,934 Speaker 2: in that room. There is no evidence to fall back on, 253 00:12:29,974 --> 00:12:32,614 Speaker 2: there is no video. Amanda at that time did not 254 00:12:32,614 --> 00:12:35,094 Speaker 2: speak great Italian. She's hearing all of this through an 255 00:12:35,094 --> 00:12:39,013 Speaker 2: interpreter at a time where she's tired, doesn't know what's 256 00:12:39,013 --> 00:12:39,414 Speaker 2: going on. 257 00:12:40,234 --> 00:12:45,013 Speaker 2: So her interpretation of it is that they essentially coerced 258 00:12:45,013 --> 00:12:48,693 Speaker 2: her into an admission of guilt. So this is a 259 00:12:48,693 --> 00:12:51,333 Speaker 2: little bit of what the interrogation sounds like from Amanda's 260 00:12:51,333 --> 00:12:53,534 Speaker 2: perspective in the twisted tale of Amanda Knox. 261 00:12:53,903 --> 00:12:53,953 Speaker 2: I don't remember 262 00:13:22,513 --> 00:13:22,614 Speaker 2: and brought him home and then he killed her. 263 00:13:25,153 --> 00:13:26,184 Speaker 1: Is that where you met Patrick. 264 00:13:34,633 --> 00:13:36,763 Speaker 1: I don't, you lying. 265 00:13:46,263 --> 00:13:50,253 Speaker 1: It was Patrick. It's interesting listening to that and knowing 266 00:13:50,253 --> 00:13:53,414 Speaker 1: how much of a hand Amanda Knox had in not 267 00:13:53,414 --> 00:13:55,294 Speaker 1: just the creation of the show and the behind the 268 00:13:55,294 --> 00:13:58,693 Speaker 1: scenes of production. She's an executive producer, but she also 269 00:13:58,693 --> 00:14:01,573 Speaker 1: gave so much information to the writers and almost guided 270 00:14:01,573 --> 00:14:04,094 Speaker 1: them step by step of how she wanted each scene 271 00:14:04,094 --> 00:14:04,594 Speaker 1: to play out. 272 00:14:04,794 --> 00:14:06,823 Speaker 1: How it came from her memory, and then she even 273 00:14:06,823 --> 00:14:10,304 Speaker 1: helped write some of the episodes. And it's like they're 274 00:14:10,304 --> 00:14:13,313 Speaker 1: looking back on this very specific moment of media attention, 275 00:14:13,383 --> 00:14:16,424 Speaker 1: like those moments where she and Raffaele are outside the 276 00:14:16,424 --> 00:14:18,244 Speaker 1: house and they're hugging, and that's the moment where in 277 00:14:18,244 --> 00:14:20,383 Speaker 1: the series and in real life, we know the police 278 00:14:20,383 --> 00:14:21,503 Speaker 1: kind of turned against them. 279 00:14:21,943 --> 00:14:24,513 Speaker 1: And both of them have looked back on that time, 280 00:14:24,554 --> 00:14:26,244 Speaker 1: and I think you can see it come through the series, 281 00:14:26,364 --> 00:14:28,674 Speaker 1: because we're hearing it from Amanda's point of view, is 282 00:14:28,674 --> 00:14:31,273 Speaker 1: that she was quite shell shocked. And so she was 283 00:14:31,273 --> 00:14:33,794 Speaker 1: being very physical towards him because that's how she deals 284 00:14:33,794 --> 00:14:37,354 Speaker 1: with trauma. And he was almost clocking how it looked 285 00:14:37,354 --> 00:14:39,753 Speaker 1: to people around them, but he later on said in 286 00:14:39,753 --> 00:14:42,253 Speaker 1: his own memoir that he wrote about the situation that 287 00:14:42,253 --> 00:14:44,554 Speaker 1: he thought it was too cold to be pushing her 288 00:14:44,554 --> 00:14:47,114 Speaker 1: away in that moment where she 289 00:14:47,159 --> 00:14:49,789 Speaker 1: was wanting to be very affectionate, wanting to sit in 290 00:14:49,789 --> 00:14:52,188 Speaker 1: his lap. It was like a comfort thing. And even 291 00:14:52,188 --> 00:14:54,669 Speaker 1: scenes where you see her doing like leading integration, like 292 00:14:54,669 --> 00:14:56,989 Speaker 1: she does the splits in the waiting room and all 293 00:14:56,989 --> 00:14:58,869 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, that all really happened, but it's 294 00:14:58,869 --> 00:15:01,169 Speaker 1: all just like a fear response from her is what 295 00:15:01,169 --> 00:15:04,528 Speaker 1: she's saying. And as we get led into the interrogation, 296 00:15:04,789 --> 00:15:07,299 Speaker 1: it's really interesting because as you're saying, there's no film, 297 00:15:07,349 --> 00:15:09,708 Speaker 1: there's no video of that moment. Everyone who's in that 298 00:15:09,708 --> 00:15:12,429 Speaker 1: room has a different story. But the camera work 299 00:15:12,474 --> 00:15:15,153 Speaker 1: In the way that they shape it to the audience 300 00:15:15,153 --> 00:15:17,344 Speaker 1: is almost like you're supposed to see it so directly 301 00:15:17,344 --> 00:15:20,424 Speaker 1: through Amanda's eyes that like the camera frame keeps getting smaller, 302 00:15:20,503 --> 00:15:23,344 Speaker 1: the noises keep getting louder, they're getting repetitive. It's all 303 00:15:23,344 --> 00:15:25,813 Speaker 1: these kind of sensory tricks that laid over the mean 304 00:15:25,813 --> 00:15:28,304 Speaker 1: to each other, all these sensory tricks that are laid 305 00:15:28,304 --> 00:15:30,023 Speaker 1: over that are meant to almost like make you feel 306 00:15:30,023 --> 00:15:32,224 Speaker 1: as a viewer that you're being interrogated. So the idea 307 00:15:32,224 --> 00:15:34,583 Speaker 1: is like, your heart is supposed to start beating fast, 308 00:15:34,664 --> 00:15:37,143 Speaker 1: you're supposed to start getting in like a fight or 309 00:15:37,143 --> 00:15:37,664 Speaker 1: flight situation. 310 00:15:37,789 --> 00:15:40,249 Speaker 1: And so when she yells out Patrick's name at the end, 311 00:15:40,499 --> 00:15:43,309 Speaker 1: it's almost like this release of like wanting to know 312 00:15:43,309 --> 00:15:47,458 Speaker 1: the escape of how you're gonna wear that. Exactly, exactly, 313 00:15:47,469 --> 00:15:49,289 Speaker 1: because she's given them what they want in that moment. 314 00:15:49,338 --> 00:15:52,138 Speaker 1: So it's a really interesting twist of putting you in 315 00:15:52,138 --> 00:15:55,619 Speaker 1: Amanda's shoes. And I guess maybe that explains what happened 316 00:15:55,619 --> 00:15:57,698 Speaker 1: next if you're looking at the real crime. Yeah, 317 00:15:57,859 --> 00:16:01,018 Speaker 2: so you heard there she says it was Patrick and 318 00:16:01,018 --> 00:16:02,979 Speaker 2: Patrick is her boss at the bar. 319 00:16:03,693 --> 00:16:07,653 Speaker 2: Patrick Lumumba, who is an African man who has immigrated 320 00:16:07,653 --> 00:16:11,044 Speaker 2: to Italy, and he's opened this bar. Police had found 321 00:16:11,044 --> 00:16:16,523 Speaker 2: a hair in Meredith Kercher's bedroom, which matched an African man. 322 00:16:16,813 --> 00:16:20,094 Speaker 2: There was a young black man living in the apartment downstairs, 323 00:16:20,133 --> 00:16:22,383 Speaker 2: and he was terrified to hear that there was a 324 00:16:22,383 --> 00:16:24,013 Speaker 2: hair that potentially linked him. 325 00:16:24,463 --> 00:16:27,354 Speaker 2: But then they found out that the person that Amanda 326 00:16:27,354 --> 00:16:30,784 Speaker 2: had texted, I'll see you later, which they took literally, 327 00:16:31,273 --> 00:16:35,273 Speaker 2: that man was also of African origin, and so for them, 328 00:16:35,674 --> 00:16:38,184 Speaker 2: puzzle pieces started to click into place. 329 00:16:38,744 --> 00:16:41,063 Speaker 2: Amanda had obviously organized to meet this man at some 330 00:16:41,063 --> 00:16:44,263 Speaker 2: stage that night, and that man has hair that matches 331 00:16:44,263 --> 00:16:45,864 Speaker 2: the one that's on the scene. So it all makes 332 00:16:45,864 --> 00:16:48,974 Speaker 2: sense to them. So, she tells them that Patrick did it, 333 00:16:49,023 --> 00:16:52,573 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden the interrogation stops. And as 334 00:16:52,573 --> 00:16:54,184 Speaker 2: we know now, and what you do learn about in 335 00:16:54,184 --> 00:16:56,193 Speaker 2: the drama series and the documentary too that 336 00:16:56,244 --> 00:16:58,794 Speaker 2: Amanda Knox has made about this is that is a 337 00:16:58,794 --> 00:17:02,153 Speaker 2: very well-known interrogation technique. It is one that police have 338 00:17:02,153 --> 00:17:04,554 Speaker 2: been using for a very long time, and we've seen 339 00:17:04,554 --> 00:17:08,323 Speaker 2: cases be overturned, like the Central Park Five, for example, 340 00:17:08,554 --> 00:17:11,364 Speaker 2: the same interrogation technique was used on them, and they 341 00:17:11,364 --> 00:17:13,713 Speaker 2: falsely confessed to a murder that they did not commit. 342 00:17:14,193 --> 00:17:16,524 Speaker 2: And so we've seen it happen before, where if you 343 00:17:16,524 --> 00:17:19,634 Speaker 2: just layer on the pressure and you get people to 344 00:17:20,124 --> 00:17:23,354 Speaker 2: think that maybe then remembering something wrong, and then you 345 00:17:23,354 --> 00:17:26,234 Speaker 2: plant a seed that potentially it happened this way, like, 346 00:17:26,244 --> 00:17:29,364 Speaker 2: maybe you did leave the apartment that night, maybe you 347 00:17:29,364 --> 00:17:31,724 Speaker 2: did meet with Patrick, maybe you did go back to 348 00:17:31,724 --> 00:17:34,474 Speaker 2: your apartment and then they start to make you believe 349 00:17:34,474 --> 00:17:34,774 Speaker 2: under 350 00:17:34,828 --> 00:17:37,969 Speaker 2: Stress and duress that you are wrong and they are right. 351 00:17:38,178 --> 00:17:40,948 Speaker 2: And so to stop it, all you can do is admit. 352 00:17:41,099 --> 00:17:43,099 Speaker 2: And so that is what we're seeing play out from 353 00:17:43,099 --> 00:17:47,938 Speaker 2: Amanda's perspective now. The detectives, they say that it did 354 00:17:47,938 --> 00:17:50,418 Speaker 2: not play out like that, that that interrogation did not 355 00:17:50,418 --> 00:17:52,759 Speaker 2: happen like that. Also, Amanda claims she was hit in 356 00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:54,418 Speaker 2: the head a couple of times during it, which they 357 00:17:54,418 --> 00:17:55,418 Speaker 2: say did not happen. 358 00:17:55,913 --> 00:17:58,604 Speaker 2: And they say that at no stage did they plant 359 00:17:58,604 --> 00:18:01,394 Speaker 2: a seed that it was Patrick. Like, that came from her. 360 00:18:01,524 --> 00:18:04,803 Speaker 2: They said that they did not do that. So, we 361 00:18:04,803 --> 00:18:07,754 Speaker 2: can't know what the truth is in amongst all of that. So, 362 00:18:07,764 --> 00:18:11,594 Speaker 2: moving on, it's now November 19, so it's 18 days since. 363 00:18:11,953 --> 00:18:15,663 Speaker 2: Meredith's murder, and police announced that there is actually a 364 00:18:15,663 --> 00:18:19,494 Speaker 2: new suspect. They've arrested Patrick, Amanda and Raffaeli at this stage, 365 00:18:19,904 --> 00:18:23,333 Speaker 2: and they realized that a man who had been arrested 366 00:18:23,333 --> 00:18:27,974 Speaker 2: a few days before Meredith's murder for breaking into a kindergarten, essentially, 367 00:18:28,474 --> 00:18:32,563 Speaker 2: That he is actually the suspect linked to Meredith's murder. 368 00:18:32,683 --> 00:18:35,563 Speaker 2: His name is Rudy Guedey. He is also an African 369 00:18:35,563 --> 00:18:40,634 Speaker 2: immigrant into Italy, and he had a rap sheet, robberies, 370 00:18:41,004 --> 00:18:44,673 Speaker 2: various crimes against women, like, so he really fit the MO. 371 00:18:45,203 --> 00:18:48,234 Speaker 2: So when they figured out that Rudy was their guy, 372 00:18:48,563 --> 00:18:51,203 Speaker 2: they had to let Patrick go because his alibi stood 373 00:18:51,203 --> 00:18:55,004 Speaker 2: up and was checked, and they did manage to find 374 00:18:55,004 --> 00:18:57,083 Speaker 2: Rudy Gade at a train station and they arrest him. 375 00:18:57,583 --> 00:18:59,923 Speaker 2: Now, Amanda and Raffaele at this stage think, OK, they've 376 00:18:59,923 --> 00:19:03,033 Speaker 2: finally found the murderer. They will let us go. No, 377 00:19:03,224 --> 00:19:05,894 Speaker 2: that is not what happens now. And in fact, police 378 00:19:06,033 --> 00:19:10,374 Speaker 2: ramp up their involvement, and they create a narrative that 379 00:19:10,624 --> 00:19:15,594 Speaker 2: there was some kind of sexual nature to the crime. Obviously, 380 00:19:15,943 --> 00:19:18,904 Speaker 2: Meredith was raped, so that was already where they were 381 00:19:18,904 --> 00:19:19,504 Speaker 2: being led. 382 00:19:20,004 --> 00:19:23,614 Speaker 2: But they believed that it was more than just a 383 00:19:23,614 --> 00:19:28,453 Speaker 2: man breaking in and raping Meredith, that Amanda and Raffaele 384 00:19:28,453 --> 00:19:30,614 Speaker 2: were playing some kind of game, and they wanted to 385 00:19:30,614 --> 00:19:33,644 Speaker 2: involve Meredith, and she didn't want to, and that's why 386 00:19:34,014 --> 00:19:38,323 Speaker 2: she was killed. They also had been collecting DNA from 387 00:19:38,323 --> 00:19:39,783 Speaker 2: the scene, and 388 00:19:40,219 --> 00:19:42,219 Speaker 2: This is what will bring them unstuck later on down 389 00:19:42,219 --> 00:19:45,979 Speaker 2: the track. They filmed the entire thing. They find DNA 390 00:19:45,979 --> 00:19:48,619 Speaker 2: of Meredith's on a knife that has both Amanda and 391 00:19:48,619 --> 00:19:52,088 Speaker 2: Raffaele's DNA on it. Also, it was at Raffaele's apartment. 392 00:19:52,379 --> 00:19:55,818 Speaker 2: They also find some of Raffaele's DNA on a bra 393 00:19:55,818 --> 00:19:58,788 Speaker 2: strap that looks to have been broken off in some 394 00:19:58,788 --> 00:19:59,619 Speaker 2: kind of scuffle. 395 00:20:00,104 --> 00:20:02,754 Speaker 2: But as we'll later find out, those two were then 396 00:20:02,754 --> 00:20:07,114 Speaker 2: eventually thrown out. So Rudy Guede asks for a separate trial, 397 00:20:07,244 --> 00:20:10,803 Speaker 2: and he's fast tracked. So with, before Amanda and Raffaele 398 00:20:10,803 --> 00:20:13,884 Speaker 2: even make it to court, he is found guilty, sent 399 00:20:13,884 --> 00:20:17,913 Speaker 2: to jail, and sentenced. So, like, he's over and done with. 400 00:20:18,244 --> 00:20:21,443 Speaker 2: So then later, Amanda and Raffaele go to trial, and 401 00:20:21,443 --> 00:20:24,163 Speaker 2: at this stage is when the media really. 402 00:20:24,333 --> 00:20:26,644 Speaker 2: Starts to sink its teeth into this story. Back in 403 00:20:26,644 --> 00:20:29,323 Speaker 2: the day, it was MySpace. They'd trolled through Amanda's MySpace 404 00:20:29,323 --> 00:20:32,394 Speaker 2: and found every picture that made her look even vaguely bad. 405 00:20:32,644 --> 00:20:36,264 Speaker 2: And they start referring to her by a nickname, Foxy Knoxy, 406 00:20:36,364 --> 00:20:38,923 Speaker 2: which sounds terrible, but it was actually a nickname given 407 00:20:38,923 --> 00:20:40,994 Speaker 2: to her when she was playing soccer as a child. 408 00:20:41,323 --> 00:20:43,683 Speaker 2: And they made her into this kind of vixen character 409 00:20:43,683 --> 00:20:45,963 Speaker 2: who obviously was doing this for some kind of sexual 410 00:20:45,963 --> 00:20:49,283 Speaker 2: gratification and then turned on Meredith in the moment. So 411 00:20:49,283 --> 00:20:53,844 Speaker 2: if we fast forward now to December 4, 2009, 412 00:20:54,364 --> 00:20:57,354 Speaker 2: The jury finds Amanda and Raffaeli guilty, which comes as 413 00:20:57,354 --> 00:21:00,354 Speaker 2: a real shock to everybody because the way that that 414 00:21:00,354 --> 00:21:04,154 Speaker 2: case was handled, the prosecutors didn't hand over a lot 415 00:21:04,154 --> 00:21:07,073 Speaker 2: of the evidence until very late. They didn't have a 416 00:21:07,073 --> 00:21:09,474 Speaker 2: chance to refute a lot of it. They were really 417 00:21:09,474 --> 00:21:11,713 Speaker 2: kind of flying by the seat of their pants at 418 00:21:11,713 --> 00:21:15,033 Speaker 2: a lot of these junctures of the trial, and they're 419 00:21:15,033 --> 00:21:16,663 Speaker 2: found guilty and they're sent off to prison. 420 00:21:17,453 --> 00:21:20,533 Speaker 2: And the two of them are so shell shocked, they 421 00:21:20,533 --> 00:21:24,894 Speaker 2: don't really know what to do. Amanda claims then that's 422 00:21:24,894 --> 00:21:30,094 Speaker 2: when she really started to research her own investigation, and 423 00:21:30,413 --> 00:21:32,774 Speaker 2: by this stage, she's becoming more fluent in Italian, so 424 00:21:32,774 --> 00:21:35,573 Speaker 2: she can read documentation better and she can understand the 425 00:21:35,573 --> 00:21:36,573 Speaker 2: processes a bit better. 426 00:21:37,134 --> 00:21:39,154 Speaker 2: But the media has really sunk its teeth into the 427 00:21:39,154 --> 00:21:42,124 Speaker 2: point where every little thing is being leaked of hers 428 00:21:42,124 --> 00:21:45,303 Speaker 2: to the press. So, for example, and this is true 429 00:21:45,303 --> 00:21:48,274 Speaker 2: in the drama, when she was admitted into prison, they 430 00:21:48,274 --> 00:21:51,474 Speaker 2: took a blood test and they falsely found her positive 431 00:21:51,474 --> 00:21:54,474 Speaker 2: for HIV. And she was told, basically, that's it, you 432 00:21:54,474 --> 00:21:57,953 Speaker 2: have HIV and, you know, in the early 2000s, we 433 00:21:57,953 --> 00:22:00,624 Speaker 2: didn't treat it as well as what we do in 2025. 434 00:22:00,634 --> 00:22:02,713 Speaker 2: It was a terrifying diagnosis then. 435 00:22:03,043 --> 00:22:04,673 Speaker 2: But she was kind of just told, Oh, yep, that's it. 436 00:22:04,754 --> 00:22:06,533 Speaker 2: And then to write a list of men that she 437 00:22:06,533 --> 00:22:09,224 Speaker 2: potentially had sexual contact with so that they can be contacted. 438 00:22:09,553 --> 00:22:12,833 Speaker 2: That list was then stolen from her cell and given 439 00:22:12,833 --> 00:22:15,423 Speaker 2: to the media to paint another picture of just how 440 00:22:15,634 --> 00:22:20,553 Speaker 2: immoral that this young American girl was. Eventually, there is 441 00:22:20,553 --> 00:22:25,663 Speaker 2: an appeal. So, 2011, they go back to court on appeal. 442 00:22:25,913 --> 00:22:29,043 Speaker 2: This is when the DNA evidence becomes crucial. So, 443 00:22:29,624 --> 00:22:34,303 Speaker 2: They watched the video of how the DNA collection process 444 00:22:34,303 --> 00:22:38,703 Speaker 2: was handled, and you can see in the investigation's own 445 00:22:38,703 --> 00:22:41,583 Speaker 2: video evidence that they handled it incorrectly. So just as 446 00:22:41,583 --> 00:22:44,254 Speaker 2: an example, that bra strap that we spoke about before, 447 00:22:44,463 --> 00:22:47,144 Speaker 2: in the first video evidence, we can see it's underneath 448 00:22:47,144 --> 00:22:50,423 Speaker 2: Meredith's pillow, and then by the next time that they 449 00:22:50,423 --> 00:22:52,864 Speaker 2: collect that evidence, it's on the floor under the corner 450 00:22:52,864 --> 00:22:53,413 Speaker 2: of a rug. 451 00:22:53,543 --> 00:22:56,144 Speaker 1: So it's been contaminated in the drama. 452 00:22:56,303 --> 00:22:58,573 Speaker 1: And there's a question of like, how much is it 453 00:22:58,573 --> 00:23:01,173 Speaker 1: being contaminated? And the person says, like, it doesn't actually 454 00:23:01,173 --> 00:23:03,663 Speaker 1: matter because the fact that it's been moved and handled 455 00:23:04,094 --> 00:23:05,494 Speaker 1: already makes that invisible 456 00:23:05,494 --> 00:23:06,344 Speaker 1: evidence. Exactly 457 00:23:06,344 --> 00:23:09,203 Speaker 2: right. And you can see, and in the original trial, 458 00:23:09,394 --> 00:23:10,894 Speaker 2: they looked at that bra strap that obviously it had 459 00:23:10,894 --> 00:23:14,844 Speaker 2: been forcefully pulled apart and like the the prongs were 460 00:23:14,844 --> 00:23:17,293 Speaker 2: pulled apart. But really, what had happened is it's obviously 461 00:23:17,293 --> 00:23:19,053 Speaker 2: been stood on while it's on the floor, and you 462 00:23:19,053 --> 00:23:21,774 Speaker 2: can see that in the evidence between when you first 463 00:23:21,774 --> 00:23:23,053 Speaker 2: see it and when you second see it. 464 00:23:23,394 --> 00:23:25,254 Speaker 2: And then as far as the DNA on the knife 465 00:23:25,254 --> 00:23:28,654 Speaker 2: is concerned, there was so little trace evidence that they 466 00:23:28,654 --> 00:23:32,134 Speaker 2: had to override the DNA testing machine in order for 467 00:23:32,134 --> 00:23:35,303 Speaker 2: it to register. And they were questioned in court about that, 468 00:23:35,323 --> 00:23:37,654 Speaker 2: and they said, if you didn't override that machine, would 469 00:23:37,654 --> 00:23:40,413 Speaker 2: it have found trace DNA of all three of them, 470 00:23:40,494 --> 00:23:43,173 Speaker 2: and they said, probably not, of Meredith's DNA. 471 00:23:43,734 --> 00:23:46,094 Speaker 2: So, and also they found that the knife had been 472 00:23:46,094 --> 00:23:49,183 Speaker 2: transported in a box that had had other things in it, 473 00:23:49,303 --> 00:23:51,764 Speaker 2: so it was, it was poorly handled, so they were 474 00:23:52,063 --> 00:23:56,303 Speaker 2: acquitted after that. Amanda goes home to the US, Raffaele 475 00:23:56,303 --> 00:23:57,413 Speaker 2: attempts to get on with his life. 476 00:23:58,024 --> 00:24:02,864 Speaker 2: Amanda and Raffaele again, are brought to trial in Italy. 477 00:24:02,943 --> 00:24:06,344 Speaker 2: They decide to re-prosecute them. They are found guilty, the 478 00:24:06,344 --> 00:24:09,134 Speaker 2: next time around. Amanda does not return to Italy from 479 00:24:09,134 --> 00:24:12,344 Speaker 2: the US. Raffaele does eventually return to Italy to try 480 00:24:12,344 --> 00:24:14,024 Speaker 2: and defend himself, and then. 481 00:24:14,114 --> 00:24:17,833 Speaker 2: Then there is another appeal on that, and they do 482 00:24:17,833 --> 00:24:21,673 Speaker 2: then acquit them, and that's it. Case closed. So this 483 00:24:21,673 --> 00:24:24,514 Speaker 2: goes on for quite a few years. But as we 484 00:24:24,514 --> 00:24:27,344 Speaker 2: can see, there is a lot of truth in the drama, 485 00:24:27,543 --> 00:24:30,114 Speaker 2: the way that it's depicted, but also we can never know. 486 00:24:30,923 --> 00:24:33,163 Speaker 2: What exactly happened in some of these situations because it 487 00:24:33,163 --> 00:24:34,644 Speaker 2: is not documented. Yeah, 488 00:24:34,803 --> 00:24:36,803 Speaker 1: so it's very much from her point of view and 489 00:24:36,803 --> 00:24:38,963 Speaker 1: her experience and and her take on it. So in 490 00:24:38,963 --> 00:24:40,844 Speaker 1: that case, it's not meant to be, I don't think, 491 00:24:40,963 --> 00:24:44,004 Speaker 1: watched as a factual program. It's more there to just 492 00:24:44,004 --> 00:24:46,193 Speaker 1: see it through her eyes. And for a lot of people, 493 00:24:46,244 --> 00:24:48,524 Speaker 1: they're coming to this story for nearly the first time 494 00:24:48,524 --> 00:24:49,724 Speaker 1: through this drama. Yeah. 495 00:24:49,844 --> 00:24:52,244 Speaker 2: And if you were, like I said, understanding it from 496 00:24:52,244 --> 00:24:56,634 Speaker 2: just media reports, the way that she was portrayed was interesting, 497 00:24:56,844 --> 00:24:59,644 Speaker 2: that she had become this kind of demon. 498 00:25:00,087 --> 00:25:04,207 Speaker 2: Girl, this American demon sexual deviant that they really painted 499 00:25:04,207 --> 00:25:06,526 Speaker 2: her as, and it was, it was widely believed in 500 00:25:06,526 --> 00:25:09,886 Speaker 2: the press that she was some kind of awful murderer 501 00:25:09,886 --> 00:25:11,557 Speaker 2: who was in it for sexual pleasure. 502 00:25:11,727 --> 00:25:13,807 Speaker 1: Yes, that she was like a sex crazed maniac. And 503 00:25:13,807 --> 00:25:15,687 Speaker 1: to be honest, like I do understand, I mean, I 504 00:25:15,687 --> 00:25:19,047 Speaker 1: don't understand of obviously the, the horrific side of this, 505 00:25:19,057 --> 00:25:22,246 Speaker 1: of like taking a murder investigation and and demonizing someone 506 00:25:22,246 --> 00:25:24,286 Speaker 1: who at that stage hadn't been found guilty and was 507 00:25:24,286 --> 00:25:26,886 Speaker 1: later acquitted. But I do understand because it's like a 508 00:25:26,886 --> 00:25:28,396 Speaker 1: perfect storm of everything. 509 00:25:28,660 --> 00:25:31,370 Speaker 1: That the media in some parts thrives on, but also 510 00:25:31,370 --> 00:25:35,170 Speaker 1: what consumers want. Like, nothing sells better and nothing gets 511 00:25:35,170 --> 00:25:38,809 Speaker 1: better numbers or more attention than a beautiful young woman, 512 00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:42,050 Speaker 1: especially a beautiful young white woman at the center of 513 00:25:42,050 --> 00:25:45,849 Speaker 1: some sort of very intense and gruesome crime. It's like 514 00:25:45,849 --> 00:25:48,569 Speaker 1: all of these different facets of society coming together. And 515 00:25:48,569 --> 00:25:48,729 Speaker 2: who 516 00:25:48,729 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: doesn't respond in the moment like we would expect someone to. 517 00:25:51,729 --> 00:25:53,489 Speaker 2: And she does kind of explain that she has a 518 00:25:53,489 --> 00:25:55,849 Speaker 2: bit of a weird personality and she doesn't always act 519 00:25:55,849 --> 00:25:57,540 Speaker 2: in a way that people understand and 520 00:25:57,783 --> 00:25:59,774 Speaker 2: And as we know now, with, you know, people being 521 00:25:59,774 --> 00:26:02,484 Speaker 2: on spectrums, like, we understand not everyone reacts the same. 522 00:26:02,933 --> 00:26:04,963 Speaker 2: So it is really interesting, but also too, I read 523 00:26:04,963 --> 00:26:07,894 Speaker 2: an article by an Italian journalist who was like, everyone 524 00:26:07,894 --> 00:26:10,293 Speaker 2: said the Italian media was out to get her and 525 00:26:10,293 --> 00:26:14,083 Speaker 2: demonize her, and that is partly true. But it was 526 00:26:14,774 --> 00:26:17,654 Speaker 2: more the American press and others who picked up on 527 00:26:17,654 --> 00:26:18,774 Speaker 2: that and ran with it. Oh, 528 00:26:18,813 --> 00:26:21,213 Speaker 1: absolutely. And we know from like, looking back at the 529 00:26:21,213 --> 00:26:24,854 Speaker 1: coverage that so many American news outlets sent whole news teams, 530 00:26:24,974 --> 00:26:26,173 Speaker 1: camera people, reporters. 531 00:26:26,453 --> 00:26:28,604 Speaker 1: Over there, who were there for months at a time, 532 00:26:28,854 --> 00:26:31,453 Speaker 1: camped in front of the crime scene, camped outside of 533 00:26:31,453 --> 00:26:35,094 Speaker 1: the prison, the courthouse, following Amanda's family around and people 534 00:26:35,094 --> 00:26:36,894 Speaker 1: involved in the story. And a lot of the story 535 00:26:36,894 --> 00:26:39,413 Speaker 1: came from just images that they would capture of her 536 00:26:39,413 --> 00:26:42,533 Speaker 1: going in and out of different court proceedings, and not 537 00:26:42,533 --> 00:26:44,254 Speaker 1: just what was in the courtroom at the time. And 538 00:26:44,254 --> 00:26:46,053 Speaker 1: if you look at just the pictures and the videos 539 00:26:46,053 --> 00:26:48,053 Speaker 1: at the time, I mean, I know we're looking through 540 00:26:48,053 --> 00:26:49,654 Speaker 1: it through a lens of like, the story we were 541 00:26:49,654 --> 00:26:51,844 Speaker 1: being fed at the time, but she does look very guilty, 542 00:26:52,014 --> 00:26:54,484 Speaker 1: if you look at just the media coverage. She does 543 00:26:54,484 --> 00:26:54,854 Speaker 1: look like 544 00:26:55,014 --> 00:26:58,453 Speaker 1: Vixen who orchestrated to kill someone because of the pictures 545 00:26:58,453 --> 00:27:01,413 Speaker 1: they chose to run because of the videos they showed, 546 00:27:01,453 --> 00:27:04,224 Speaker 1: and because she wasn't acting like a perfect victim of 547 00:27:04,224 --> 00:27:05,854 Speaker 1: how you would expect someone in that situation 548 00:27:05,854 --> 00:27:06,463 Speaker 1: to react. 549 00:27:06,573 --> 00:27:09,043 Speaker 2: Yeah. And it is really interesting to watch this drama, 550 00:27:09,894 --> 00:27:11,754 Speaker 2: understanding the true crime behind it, because a lot of 551 00:27:11,754 --> 00:27:14,173 Speaker 2: it is factual. Like a lot of it is, and 552 00:27:14,173 --> 00:27:18,854 Speaker 2: their recreation of the crime scene, the court proceedings weren't 553 00:27:18,854 --> 00:27:21,333 Speaker 2: recorded either, so we don't know exactly, they were behind 554 00:27:21,333 --> 00:27:23,083 Speaker 2: closed doors, so we don't know exactly what happened there. 555 00:27:23,094 --> 00:27:23,423 Speaker 2: But 556 00:27:23,734 --> 00:27:27,083 Speaker 2: There were photographers in the courtroom that captured these moments too, and, 557 00:27:27,183 --> 00:27:31,014 Speaker 2: and they really recreated some of that incredibly well to 558 00:27:31,014 --> 00:27:33,413 Speaker 2: the point where when I was looking at some photos, 559 00:27:33,494 --> 00:27:34,894 Speaker 2: I had to stop myself and go, Hang on, is 560 00:27:34,894 --> 00:27:37,494 Speaker 2: that the real Amanda Knox, or is that the actress 561 00:27:37,494 --> 00:27:38,624 Speaker 2: playing Amanda Knox? Because they 562 00:27:38,668 --> 00:27:42,818 Speaker 2: I did a really faithful recreation of her outfits, the 563 00:27:42,818 --> 00:27:46,609 Speaker 2: apartment inside the apartment, which was really quite incredible. I 564 00:27:46,609 --> 00:27:48,979 Speaker 2: scrolled through the crime scene photos myself and had a 565 00:27:48,979 --> 00:27:51,499 Speaker 2: look at what it really looked like, and it really does. 566 00:27:51,578 --> 00:27:53,578 Speaker 2: They've done a very faithful job at recreating it. 567 00:27:53,854 --> 00:27:56,274 Speaker 1: And that's part of the reason getting into like, why 568 00:27:56,274 --> 00:27:58,644 Speaker 1: this TV show exists, is that they wanted to be 569 00:27:58,644 --> 00:28:00,604 Speaker 1: really faithful to the story. And obviously, there's a lot 570 00:28:00,604 --> 00:28:03,364 Speaker 1: of back and forth over whether the TV show should 571 00:28:03,364 --> 00:28:06,323 Speaker 1: exist or not. Like, even people who don't have any 572 00:28:06,323 --> 00:28:10,354 Speaker 1: thoughts on whether or not she's guilty or what happened 573 00:28:10,683 --> 00:28:13,124 Speaker 1: have a bit of an issue of, one, a story 574 00:28:13,124 --> 00:28:14,683 Speaker 1: like this being dredged up, but two, 575 00:28:14,823 --> 00:28:16,923 Speaker 1: If it was even necessary to put it into like 576 00:28:16,923 --> 00:28:20,974 Speaker 1: the entertainment drama space. Because since Amanda Knox was acquitted 577 00:28:20,974 --> 00:28:24,813 Speaker 1: that final time, she's written two different memoirs, she's done 578 00:28:24,813 --> 00:28:27,874 Speaker 1: a podcast, there's so many documentaries, some that she's out 579 00:28:27,874 --> 00:28:30,533 Speaker 1: of hand, and some that she hasn't. She's done well 580 00:28:30,533 --> 00:28:33,933 Speaker 1: over 100 interviews at this stage just because she's done 581 00:28:33,933 --> 00:28:34,474 Speaker 1: so many, 582 00:28:34,734 --> 00:28:35,693 Speaker 2: including here at Mamma Mia. 583 00:28:35,793 --> 00:28:37,783 Speaker 2: Which we'll play a little bit off in a minute. Yes, exactly. 584 00:28:37,864 --> 00:28:40,783 Speaker 1: Like she has really told her story. So a lot 585 00:28:40,783 --> 00:28:43,344 Speaker 1: of people were thinking like, why go back for like 586 00:28:43,344 --> 00:28:46,384 Speaker 1: another sip from the well to this story? So there's 587 00:28:46,384 --> 00:28:48,703 Speaker 1: a lot of questions and commentary around whether or not 588 00:28:48,703 --> 00:28:51,254 Speaker 1: this TV show should have been made and should it exist. 589 00:28:51,533 --> 00:28:52,984 Speaker 1: I think we both have strong feelings on that, and 590 00:28:52,984 --> 00:28:54,984 Speaker 1: there's a lot of strong feelings from the public, which 591 00:28:54,984 --> 00:28:56,413 Speaker 1: is what we're gonna get into next. 592 00:28:58,203 --> 00:29:01,083 Speaker 1: So you say the Amanda Knox case so closely now, 593 00:29:01,144 --> 00:29:03,364 Speaker 1: you've watched the full drama series. I know you've seen 594 00:29:03,364 --> 00:29:05,644 Speaker 1: all of the commentary from people who've watched it and 595 00:29:05,644 --> 00:29:08,203 Speaker 1: from the families involved. What's your thought on whether or 596 00:29:08,203 --> 00:29:09,884 Speaker 1: not this TV show should exist? 597 00:29:09,963 --> 00:29:12,134 Speaker 2: I'm so conflicted. Yeah, 598 00:29:12,283 --> 00:29:15,644 Speaker 1: me too. Isn't that interesting? Even after everything we've consumed, 599 00:29:15,724 --> 00:29:17,163 Speaker 1: usually at this stage of the game, I would have 600 00:29:17,163 --> 00:29:19,203 Speaker 1: a very clear view of whether or not. 601 00:29:19,308 --> 00:29:22,019 Speaker 1: Not something like this should have been made, but like 602 00:29:22,019 --> 00:29:23,099 Speaker 1: everything else with this story, it's like 603 00:29:23,099 --> 00:29:23,889 Speaker 1: very complex. 604 00:29:23,979 --> 00:29:27,649 Speaker 2: It is. And I think the biggest thing is that 605 00:29:28,099 --> 00:29:31,499 Speaker 2: this will never be Meredith Kercher's story. And that is 606 00:29:31,499 --> 00:29:34,029 Speaker 2: what is touched on a little bit in the twisted 607 00:29:34,029 --> 00:29:37,139 Speaker 2: tale of Amanda Knox, that it should be about a 608 00:29:37,139 --> 00:29:41,058 Speaker 2: beautiful young woman whose life was cut tragically short. And 609 00:29:41,058 --> 00:29:43,418 Speaker 2: it should be about the man who did that to 610 00:29:43,418 --> 00:29:46,499 Speaker 2: her and the fact that he is spending his life 611 00:29:46,499 --> 00:29:48,698 Speaker 2: behind bars, although I believe he's been released now. So, 612 00:29:49,323 --> 00:29:51,803 Speaker 2: Why is it never about Meredith? Why is it always 613 00:29:51,803 --> 00:29:55,724 Speaker 2: about Amanda? And she acknowledges that, and she acknowledges that 614 00:29:55,724 --> 00:29:59,323 Speaker 2: Meredith is now essentially her story. But for the family 615 00:29:59,323 --> 00:30:02,083 Speaker 2: of Meredith, like, I can fully understand why they have 616 00:30:02,083 --> 00:30:03,874 Speaker 2: responded the way they have. Like, why are we doing 617 00:30:03,874 --> 00:30:06,323 Speaker 2: this again? Why do we keep talking about this story 618 00:30:06,323 --> 00:30:07,764 Speaker 2: like this is Amanda's story? 619 00:30:08,553 --> 00:30:11,683 Speaker 2: But also, if you put yourself in Amanda's shoes and 620 00:30:11,683 --> 00:30:14,594 Speaker 2: someone falsely accused me of murder, sent me to prison, 621 00:30:14,644 --> 00:30:18,803 Speaker 2: and really dragged my name through the mud for years 622 00:30:18,803 --> 00:30:21,663 Speaker 2: and years and years, a legacy that she still lives 623 00:30:21,663 --> 00:30:24,844 Speaker 2: with to this day, there are still legions of people 624 00:30:24,844 --> 00:30:27,563 Speaker 2: who do not believe her. They believe that she is guilty. 625 00:30:28,313 --> 00:30:31,364 Speaker 2: And they will tell her. And there is a part 626 00:30:31,364 --> 00:30:34,484 Speaker 2: in the series where she starts to like, understand the 627 00:30:34,484 --> 00:30:37,754 Speaker 2: new technology that she's come back into the world to see, 628 00:30:37,764 --> 00:30:38,244 Speaker 2: and 629 00:30:38,604 --> 00:30:42,364 Speaker 2: The messages she starts to get are pretty intense, and, 630 00:30:42,413 --> 00:30:44,813 Speaker 2: you know, there were death threats and, you know, telling 631 00:30:44,813 --> 00:30:47,453 Speaker 2: her to take her own life. And like, that's an 632 00:30:47,453 --> 00:30:50,094 Speaker 2: intense thing to deal with all the time. So would I, 633 00:30:50,104 --> 00:30:52,974 Speaker 2: in Amanda's shoes, want to keep telling my story so 634 00:30:52,974 --> 00:30:57,203 Speaker 2: that people understand me better and who understand the situation better, 635 00:30:57,693 --> 00:31:00,854 Speaker 2: I guess I get it from her perspective and wanting 636 00:31:00,854 --> 00:31:02,693 Speaker 2: to set the record straight over and over and over 637 00:31:02,693 --> 00:31:05,693 Speaker 2: when people still don't believe you. Like, I really understand that. 638 00:31:06,303 --> 00:31:10,004 Speaker 2: But I just, I feel for Meredith's family whose story 639 00:31:10,004 --> 00:31:15,404 Speaker 2: just gets overlooked, misunderstood, and there are still people even 640 00:31:15,404 --> 00:31:17,974 Speaker 2: in Meredith's family who aren't sure what they believe either. 641 00:31:18,404 --> 00:31:21,844 Speaker 2: So to see Amanda also profiting from this, like, that's 642 00:31:21,844 --> 00:31:24,173 Speaker 2: hard for them to see and hard for them to take. 643 00:31:24,244 --> 00:31:28,124 Speaker 2: So I'm still really conflicted. I get it, but I 644 00:31:28,124 --> 00:31:31,364 Speaker 2: don't want to see Meredith again become the victim. 645 00:31:31,813 --> 00:31:33,803 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the difficult thing of watching it is 646 00:31:33,803 --> 00:31:37,043 Speaker 1: that Meredith Kercher's family were contacted in the lead up 647 00:31:37,043 --> 00:31:39,364 Speaker 1: to the show, like before it went into production, and 648 00:31:39,364 --> 00:31:41,134 Speaker 1: they told production they wanted nothing to do with it, 649 00:31:41,163 --> 00:31:43,563 Speaker 1: which was expected, so they pushed on ahead without it. 650 00:31:43,803 --> 00:31:46,234 Speaker 1: But it was more so when the show was released 651 00:31:46,234 --> 00:31:48,274 Speaker 1: and the fact that it's been coming out weekly, and 652 00:31:48,274 --> 00:31:50,563 Speaker 1: even the lead up to that with Amanda, like, releasing 653 00:31:50,563 --> 00:31:52,864 Speaker 1: a podcast and, and doing a lot of press around 654 00:31:52,864 --> 00:31:55,563 Speaker 1: that and seeing all those headlines come up again. And 655 00:31:55,563 --> 00:31:58,244 Speaker 1: the response from the family was always, Please don't do this, 656 00:31:58,443 --> 00:32:00,484 Speaker 1: please don't drag this up again, please don't drag her 657 00:32:00,484 --> 00:32:01,683 Speaker 1: name in front of the world again. 658 00:32:01,943 --> 00:32:04,014 Speaker 1: And it's something that Amanda Knox does talk about quite 659 00:32:04,014 --> 00:32:06,333 Speaker 1: a bit. And something I always, when I'm watching interviews 660 00:32:06,333 --> 00:32:08,063 Speaker 1: with her, find interesting is that she'll often say to 661 00:32:08,063 --> 00:32:10,933 Speaker 1: the interviewer, You know my name, and you know Meredith's name, 662 00:32:11,014 --> 00:32:12,654 Speaker 1: but do you know the name of the man who 663 00:32:12,654 --> 00:32:14,894 Speaker 1: actually committed the crime? And a lot of the time 664 00:32:14,894 --> 00:32:18,094 Speaker 1: people don't know his name, and they don't know his 665 00:32:18,094 --> 00:32:20,533 Speaker 1: story or his face or anything because he's not a 666 00:32:20,533 --> 00:32:23,244 Speaker 1: young woman and that's not an exciting part of the case. 667 00:32:23,533 --> 00:32:25,453 Speaker 1: But in terms of why they made it, Amanda Knox 668 00:32:25,453 --> 00:32:27,453 Speaker 1: has always said that it's because she gave birth to 669 00:32:27,453 --> 00:32:28,014 Speaker 1: a daughter and 670 00:32:28,063 --> 00:32:30,854 Speaker 1: And then suddenly she realized that her daughter would be 671 00:32:30,854 --> 00:32:33,734 Speaker 1: growing up in a world where so many people still 672 00:32:33,734 --> 00:32:35,933 Speaker 1: thought she was guilty of murder and that she's 673 00:32:35,933 --> 00:32:36,913 Speaker 2: inheriting a legacy. 674 00:32:37,293 --> 00:32:39,793 Speaker 1: Exactly. And it's almost like reading between the lines of 675 00:32:39,793 --> 00:32:43,423 Speaker 1: listening to Amanda speak about this is that it's almost 676 00:32:43,423 --> 00:32:46,053 Speaker 1: like her last ditch effort to clear her name through 677 00:32:46,053 --> 00:32:48,213 Speaker 1: drama because she knows how much, especially at this point 678 00:32:48,213 --> 00:32:50,094 Speaker 1: in time right now, how much the world responds to 679 00:32:50,094 --> 00:32:52,713 Speaker 1: drama in a way that we sometimes don't respond to 680 00:32:52,713 --> 00:32:54,014 Speaker 1: an interview or an article. 681 00:32:54,514 --> 00:32:58,234 Speaker 1: So she's written the memoirs, she's done press tours so 682 00:32:58,234 --> 00:33:00,833 Speaker 1: many times over the years, she's done the podcast, so 683 00:33:00,833 --> 00:33:02,594 Speaker 1: many people have released information about it. 684 00:33:03,024 --> 00:33:05,803 Speaker 1: And yet she only saw a drama as the way 685 00:33:05,803 --> 00:33:09,323 Speaker 1: to clear her name, essentially. And maybe it's because she 686 00:33:09,323 --> 00:33:12,524 Speaker 1: could have complete control over the narrative that in a way, 687 00:33:12,563 --> 00:33:15,004 Speaker 1: you can't have with even a memoir or something, because 688 00:33:15,004 --> 00:33:16,923 Speaker 1: a memoir, you're just reading the same voice all the 689 00:33:16,923 --> 00:33:19,154 Speaker 1: way through. With the TV show, you're seeing all of 690 00:33:19,154 --> 00:33:22,004 Speaker 1: these actors relive those moments. And like we're saying, it 691 00:33:22,004 --> 00:33:24,683 Speaker 1: was very sensory heavy show. So you almost feel like 692 00:33:24,683 --> 00:33:24,904 Speaker 1: you've 693 00:33:24,957 --> 00:33:27,307 Speaker 1: Gone through it with her. And so that idea was 694 00:33:27,307 --> 00:33:29,626 Speaker 1: like people would watch the show and it's so through 695 00:33:29,626 --> 00:33:32,097 Speaker 1: her eyes that you would come out of it believing her. 696 00:33:32,467 --> 00:33:35,067 Speaker 1: And the subtext I think of all her interviews is 697 00:33:35,067 --> 00:33:38,156 Speaker 1: that she thought that was worth bringing it up again, 698 00:33:38,347 --> 00:33:40,776 Speaker 1: as like one last attempt to clear her name. 699 00:33:41,506 --> 00:33:44,746 Speaker 2: And we are seeing this real moment for these stories 700 00:33:44,746 --> 00:33:46,927 Speaker 2: being told in this manner. So 701 00:33:46,979 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 2: Like the Menendez brothers, for example, I had reported on 702 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,890 Speaker 2: their story as a journalist, many times over the years 703 00:33:53,890 --> 00:33:58,530 Speaker 2: as they've kind of attempted to be free. And I 704 00:33:58,530 --> 00:34:02,530 Speaker 2: had a very pre-formed opinion of whether I thought what 705 00:34:02,530 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 2: they did was done purely for greed, which is what 706 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,890 Speaker 2: they'd been positioned as in the media and by the prosecution. 707 00:34:09,274 --> 00:34:13,933 Speaker 2: And then when you see their stories dramatized, and you 708 00:34:13,933 --> 00:34:15,974 Speaker 2: understand a little bit more about what was going on 709 00:34:15,974 --> 00:34:19,454 Speaker 2: behind closed doors, and you understand that, you know, maybe 710 00:34:19,454 --> 00:34:22,404 Speaker 2: as children, they were abused, and so, you know, you 711 00:34:22,404 --> 00:34:24,973 Speaker 2: understand the crime a little bit better, and now there 712 00:34:24,973 --> 00:34:26,993 Speaker 2: are calls for their freedom, even though they are not 713 00:34:26,993 --> 00:34:30,493 Speaker 2: free as of us recording this podcast. But I can 714 00:34:30,493 --> 00:34:32,773 Speaker 2: understand why Amanda might want to also be a part 715 00:34:32,773 --> 00:34:36,134 Speaker 2: of this moment where people are reclaiming their own narrative. 716 00:34:36,664 --> 00:34:38,854 Speaker 2: Especially when it's through a drama that can take you 717 00:34:39,104 --> 00:34:41,664 Speaker 2: to the place and the time and can put you 718 00:34:41,664 --> 00:34:44,624 Speaker 2: in the situation. And like, if I was 20 in 719 00:34:44,624 --> 00:34:48,384 Speaker 2: a foreign country where I don't speak the language, was 720 00:34:48,384 --> 00:34:53,233 Speaker 2: accused of a terrible, terrible crime, and have no family support, 721 00:34:53,473 --> 00:34:56,813 Speaker 2: and not understand what's happening to me, and finding myself 722 00:34:56,813 --> 00:35:00,904 Speaker 2: in jail, not even understanding what I've signed, because the 723 00:35:00,904 --> 00:35:02,614 Speaker 2: truth of the matter is she signed a document. 724 00:35:02,964 --> 00:35:05,134 Speaker 2: And she didn't even fully understand what it was she 725 00:35:05,134 --> 00:35:09,934 Speaker 2: was signing. And so, to put myself in that position, like, 726 00:35:10,003 --> 00:35:13,233 Speaker 2: that would be terrifying. And I don't think you get that, 727 00:35:13,253 --> 00:35:15,414 Speaker 2: you're right. When you listen to her speak on a 728 00:35:15,414 --> 00:35:18,174 Speaker 2: podcast or you read her memoir, it doesn't put you 729 00:35:18,174 --> 00:35:20,533 Speaker 2: in the time and place, and it doesn't make you 730 00:35:20,533 --> 00:35:23,333 Speaker 2: experience that alongside her. And I think it's actually kind 731 00:35:23,333 --> 00:35:26,174 Speaker 2: of smart because I did legitimately change my view. 732 00:35:26,326 --> 00:35:27,197 Speaker 2: In this case, after 733 00:35:27,197 --> 00:35:29,316 Speaker 1: watching this. Yeah, yeah, to an extent. And again, it's 734 00:35:29,316 --> 00:35:31,146 Speaker 1: just nothing kind of pulls you in like a drama. 735 00:35:31,197 --> 00:35:32,957 Speaker 1: It's like we saw this year with Apple cider vinegar 736 00:35:32,957 --> 00:35:35,187 Speaker 1: and Belle Gibson. Like, a lot of people knew that story. 737 00:35:35,437 --> 00:35:37,677 Speaker 1: They knew that she had lied about having cancer, but 738 00:35:37,677 --> 00:35:40,437 Speaker 1: there was this renewed kind of rally behind the victims 739 00:35:40,437 --> 00:35:43,306 Speaker 1: and the journalists involved and everything worldwide, in a way 740 00:35:43,306 --> 00:35:45,836 Speaker 1: that hadn't happened, even when we saw Belle Gibson giving 741 00:35:45,836 --> 00:35:48,556 Speaker 1: these interviews. And I think with the drama too, it's 742 00:35:48,556 --> 00:35:49,636 Speaker 1: so many elements of you. 743 00:35:49,709 --> 00:35:52,489 Speaker 1: To control it, but also like the choice of actress, 744 00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:55,649 Speaker 1: like with Grace Van Patten, who gives this very kind 745 00:35:55,649 --> 00:35:59,860 Speaker 1: of vulnerable performance, and she's acting in a way that 746 00:35:59,860 --> 00:36:01,820 Speaker 1: we didn't, at least in the clips we saw, and 747 00:36:01,820 --> 00:36:03,860 Speaker 1: this was like a very strategic thing from the production 748 00:36:03,860 --> 00:36:06,419 Speaker 1: team from her, because she's meant to be playing a 749 00:36:06,419 --> 00:36:09,020 Speaker 1: woman who's been thrust into this, and so we don't 750 00:36:09,020 --> 00:36:11,459 Speaker 1: see her acting for the cameras in the way that 751 00:36:11,459 --> 00:36:12,939 Speaker 1: people think Amanda Knox did. 752 00:36:13,513 --> 00:36:16,634 Speaker 1: And a lot of effort went into casting the exact 753 00:36:16,634 --> 00:36:19,394 Speaker 1: right person for that role, which you can imagine because 754 00:36:19,394 --> 00:36:21,233 Speaker 1: they didn't want to cast an actress who might be 755 00:36:21,233 --> 00:36:24,204 Speaker 1: almost painted with the same brush that Amanda Knox is. Like, 756 00:36:24,404 --> 00:36:26,914 Speaker 1: is she seen as a sexualized actress? What other roles 757 00:36:26,914 --> 00:36:29,473 Speaker 1: has she played? Will she come across as like, not 758 00:36:29,473 --> 00:36:32,194 Speaker 1: sympathetic and vulnerable enough? And so there was this real 759 00:36:32,194 --> 00:36:35,154 Speaker 1: call to find a very vulnerable looking actress, which I 760 00:36:35,154 --> 00:36:36,654 Speaker 1: think Grace Van Patten, who most people 761 00:36:36,706 --> 00:36:38,605 Speaker 1: I know from the TV show Tell Me Lies is 762 00:36:38,855 --> 00:36:41,256 Speaker 1: kind of almost known for being that type of character 763 00:36:41,256 --> 00:36:44,385 Speaker 1: actress where she often plays the more subdued, kind of 764 00:36:44,385 --> 00:36:47,406 Speaker 1: almost victim character. And it was meant to be Margaret 765 00:36:47,406 --> 00:36:50,016 Speaker 1: Crawley originally. She was attached and they moved her out 766 00:36:50,016 --> 00:36:51,976 Speaker 1: and put her into this role. But I think the 767 00:36:51,976 --> 00:36:54,775 Speaker 1: other interesting thing is who else is involved behind the 768 00:36:54,775 --> 00:36:56,815 Speaker 1: scenes of this production, which is Monica Lewinsky, 769 00:36:56,936 --> 00:36:58,855 Speaker 2: which was a real surprise when I saw them sitting 770 00:36:58,855 --> 00:36:59,936 Speaker 2: on an American TV. 771 00:37:00,238 --> 00:37:01,917 Speaker 2: Show on the couch next to each other. I'm like, Oh, 772 00:37:01,958 --> 00:37:03,998 Speaker 2: that's an interesting lineup of guests, and didn't realize they 773 00:37:03,998 --> 00:37:06,248 Speaker 2: were talking about the exact same their co-project 774 00:37:06,248 --> 00:37:09,278 Speaker 1: they've been working on. So they met in 2017. They 775 00:37:09,278 --> 00:37:12,278 Speaker 1: were both speaking at an event, and Amanda said that 776 00:37:12,278 --> 00:37:14,958 Speaker 1: she was like getting quite overcome and quite stressed about 777 00:37:14,958 --> 00:37:18,107 Speaker 1: publicly speaking, but also just everything about reliving her story 778 00:37:18,107 --> 00:37:20,397 Speaker 1: over and over again. And she said she went to 779 00:37:20,397 --> 00:37:22,498 Speaker 1: the green room and she was stressing out, and Monica 780 00:37:22,498 --> 00:37:23,278 Speaker 1: Lewinsky came in. 781 00:37:23,409 --> 00:37:27,580 Speaker 1: And they very instantly bonded, shared stories. Monica Lewinsky was 782 00:37:27,580 --> 00:37:30,540 Speaker 1: giving her tips on how to do this next part 783 00:37:30,540 --> 00:37:33,379 Speaker 1: of being in the public eye. I've spent the majority 784 00:37:33,379 --> 00:37:36,459 Speaker 1: of my adult life, uh, feeling like no one cared 785 00:37:36,459 --> 00:37:38,979 Speaker 1: what I had to say, and, um, anything I did 786 00:37:38,979 --> 00:37:41,820 Speaker 1: say was always twisted against me, and then I find 787 00:37:41,820 --> 00:37:44,619 Speaker 1: myself invited to go give a talk for the first 788 00:37:44,619 --> 00:37:46,649 Speaker 1: time ever, and I'm utterly terrified. 789 00:37:48,063 --> 00:37:50,374 Speaker 1: I also learned that someone else is going to be 790 00:37:50,374 --> 00:37:53,773 Speaker 1: speaking at this uh this event and it happens to 791 00:37:53,773 --> 00:37:58,053 Speaker 1: be the one and only Monica Lewinsky whose Vanity Fair 792 00:37:58,053 --> 00:38:02,374 Speaker 1: articles and whose TED Talks have given me hope that 793 00:38:02,374 --> 00:38:05,414 Speaker 1: there might be a path forward in my life. And 794 00:38:05,414 --> 00:38:09,043 Speaker 1: so I asked the organizer if I could please, please, 795 00:38:09,094 --> 00:38:14,214 Speaker 1: please meet her. I think Amanda was the highlight of 796 00:38:14,214 --> 00:38:17,454 Speaker 1: that event that day, and people were so 797 00:38:18,624 --> 00:38:21,533 Speaker 1: I think they were just so impressed by you, which 798 00:38:21,533 --> 00:38:23,573 Speaker 1: I was when we first met and I had so 799 00:38:23,573 --> 00:38:28,654 Speaker 1: much compassion for you and um and it really was 800 00:38:28,654 --> 00:38:30,533 Speaker 1: kind of the beginning of 801 00:38:30,904 --> 00:38:33,783 Speaker 1: Us knowing each other. Monica Lewinsky, for anyone who doesn't know, 802 00:38:33,904 --> 00:38:36,854 Speaker 1: in the late 1990s was working in the White House 803 00:38:36,854 --> 00:38:39,543 Speaker 1: and said that she had had an affair with then 804 00:38:39,543 --> 00:38:42,464 Speaker 1: President Bill Clinton and was absolutely, there's no other way 805 00:38:42,464 --> 00:38:45,614 Speaker 1: to put it, slut shamed. And, and painted to be 806 00:38:45,614 --> 00:38:47,573 Speaker 1: a liar and all of these things. 807 00:38:47,743 --> 00:38:48,543 Speaker 2: She seduced the 808 00:38:48,543 --> 00:38:49,214 Speaker 2: president 809 00:38:49,214 --> 00:38:53,184 Speaker 1: and became not just a huge villain and this hatred 810 00:38:53,184 --> 00:38:55,344 Speaker 1: of the world, but also just became 811 00:38:55,389 --> 00:38:58,739 Speaker 1: a mockery and, and just basically the entire world turned 812 00:38:58,739 --> 00:39:01,100 Speaker 1: against her. And you talk about people being canceled, but 813 00:39:01,100 --> 00:39:03,419 Speaker 1: they don't really get canceled, but she was really canceled. 814 00:39:03,649 --> 00:39:07,439 Speaker 2: Like a lot of jokes for like decades after that occurred. 815 00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:11,629 Speaker 2: And she has been the epitome of reclaiming the narrative. 816 00:39:12,219 --> 00:39:15,300 Speaker 2: And that's where social media has actually been the most 817 00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:18,820 Speaker 2: amazing thing for some people because she took to then Twitter, 818 00:39:18,860 --> 00:39:19,979 Speaker 2: which is now X, and 819 00:39:20,025 --> 00:39:23,446 Speaker 2: And we finally got to know who Monica Lewinsky actually 820 00:39:23,446 --> 00:39:28,926 Speaker 2: is and is not just this vixen intern who happened to, 821 00:39:29,095 --> 00:39:30,845 Speaker 2: you know, seduce the most powerful man in the world. 822 00:39:31,095 --> 00:39:33,565 Speaker 1: Because it did come out that she was telling the truth. 823 00:39:34,295 --> 00:39:38,375 Speaker 2: Yeah, and she also has had a hand in documentaries 824 00:39:38,375 --> 00:39:41,375 Speaker 2: about that situation where she has been actually asked about 825 00:39:41,375 --> 00:39:44,535 Speaker 2: those experiences and has told them exactly what happened. 826 00:39:44,844 --> 00:39:48,333 Speaker 2: And so she's been able to really turn around, being 827 00:39:48,333 --> 00:39:51,174 Speaker 2: the butt of every late night host joke for a 828 00:39:51,174 --> 00:39:54,293 Speaker 2: long time. And she talks about her mom sitting next 829 00:39:54,293 --> 00:39:57,243 Speaker 2: to her bed and like begging her not to take 830 00:39:57,243 --> 00:39:59,444 Speaker 2: her own life because of just how bad it got 831 00:39:59,444 --> 00:40:02,333 Speaker 2: for her in the late 90s and early 2000s. And 832 00:40:02,333 --> 00:40:05,894 Speaker 2: so she is now thriving because she's been able to 833 00:40:05,894 --> 00:40:08,854 Speaker 2: tell her story and be believed. So that's, it makes 834 00:40:08,854 --> 00:40:11,553 Speaker 2: sense now that the two of them are working together on. 835 00:40:12,249 --> 00:40:14,678 Speaker 1: And that's why Monica wanted to be involved in the 836 00:40:14,678 --> 00:40:18,348 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox in the televised version of her story. She said, 837 00:40:18,398 --> 00:40:21,438 Speaker 1: I can't relate to being falsely accused of a crime 838 00:40:21,438 --> 00:40:23,678 Speaker 1: like that because of her was a different situation. It 839 00:40:23,678 --> 00:40:25,918 Speaker 1: was more of a situation of public shaming. And she's like, 840 00:40:25,989 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: and I can't relate to being falsely in prison, but 841 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,678 Speaker 1: I do know what it's like to have the world 842 00:40:29,678 --> 00:40:31,908 Speaker 1: turn against you and have your story not be your own. 843 00:40:32,079 --> 00:40:35,839 Speaker 1: And I think even though she had hard evidence to 844 00:40:35,839 --> 00:40:37,999 Speaker 1: show that what she said about the president and everything 845 00:40:37,999 --> 00:40:39,549 Speaker 1: that happened to her afterwards was true. 846 00:40:40,104 --> 00:40:41,944 Speaker 1: A lot of people still saw her, as you're saying, 847 00:40:41,954 --> 00:40:44,063 Speaker 1: in a different light. So when they did the Monica 848 00:40:44,063 --> 00:40:47,704 Speaker 1: Lewinsky TV series, when Beanie Feldstein played her, it's again, 849 00:40:47,783 --> 00:40:50,344 Speaker 1: that whole thing of drama, reshaping a narrative in the 850 00:40:50,344 --> 00:40:53,823 Speaker 1: way that factual information can't was that brought a whole 851 00:40:53,823 --> 00:40:56,063 Speaker 1: new audience over to her side. So I think that's 852 00:40:56,063 --> 00:40:58,654 Speaker 1: why she was so instrumental on this Amanda Knox series 853 00:40:58,654 --> 00:41:01,694 Speaker 1: of being an executive producer and being able to say, like, 854 00:41:01,904 --> 00:41:03,753 Speaker 1: tell this part of the story, or don't tell this part, 855 00:41:03,773 --> 00:41:05,854 Speaker 1: or even, like, we don't know the extent of it, 856 00:41:05,864 --> 00:41:06,743 Speaker 1: but I think she would even be. 857 00:41:06,939 --> 00:41:09,030 Speaker 1: coaching her through the press around it and everything to 858 00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:11,590 Speaker 1: sort of shape it as like the perfect kind of 859 00:41:11,590 --> 00:41:14,949 Speaker 1: reclaiming of her story. Because in the series, Amanda does 860 00:41:14,949 --> 00:41:17,750 Speaker 1: become this strong hero. Like, she almost becomes like a 861 00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:20,469 Speaker 1: young adult, like a Katniss Everdeen or something towards the end, 862 00:41:20,479 --> 00:41:22,389 Speaker 1: and off you felt that it was done in a 863 00:41:22,389 --> 00:41:25,830 Speaker 1: very careful way for her to at first be a victim, 864 00:41:25,869 --> 00:41:28,580 Speaker 1: and then they kind of made her into this heroine, like, 865 00:41:28,709 --> 00:41:30,750 Speaker 1: she's not just clearing her own name, but she's standing 866 00:41:30,750 --> 00:41:31,780 Speaker 1: up against the system. 867 00:41:31,879 --> 00:41:33,429 Speaker 2: She's becoming an advocate for people who've been. 868 00:41:33,966 --> 00:41:36,275 Speaker 1: And she's walking into the courtroom and saying, like, I 869 00:41:36,275 --> 00:41:37,956 Speaker 1: speak the language. I do this, I've done the work. 870 00:41:38,035 --> 00:41:40,355 Speaker 1: And then we see her coming back into the prison 871 00:41:40,355 --> 00:41:42,916 Speaker 1: and everyone applauding for her and cheering for her and 872 00:41:42,916 --> 00:41:45,635 Speaker 1: her being seen as this savior. OK, 873 00:41:45,756 --> 00:41:45,956 Speaker 2: hold 874 00:41:45,956 --> 00:41:50,035 Speaker 2: that thought, Laura Brodnick, because I think what really shook 875 00:41:50,035 --> 00:41:52,585 Speaker 2: me a little bit watching this is that break from 876 00:41:52,585 --> 00:41:56,345 Speaker 2: reality into fantasy that happens quite regularly throughout the entire series. 877 00:41:56,436 --> 00:41:58,835 Speaker 2: I want to get your take on exactly why that 878 00:41:58,835 --> 00:42:00,635 Speaker 2: is and what is happening next. 879 00:42:02,583 --> 00:42:05,434 Speaker 2: So, as we mentioned just before the break, then, if 880 00:42:05,434 --> 00:42:08,013 Speaker 2: you're watching this series, you would have noticed that sometimes 881 00:42:08,013 --> 00:42:11,594 Speaker 2: it's Amanda telling her story and she does a little 882 00:42:11,594 --> 00:42:14,513 Speaker 2: bit of that via narration, which I know some people despise. 883 00:42:14,634 --> 00:42:15,553 Speaker 2: I actually quite like it. 884 00:42:15,954 --> 00:42:20,394 Speaker 2: But then it'll cut to really fanciful scenes. In one, 885 00:42:20,684 --> 00:42:22,884 Speaker 2: she's a child and her teddy bears are applauding her 886 00:42:22,884 --> 00:42:27,793 Speaker 2: for performing a little at home dance, and often it's like, 887 00:42:27,803 --> 00:42:30,273 Speaker 2: there's one in a library where she's like floating around 888 00:42:30,273 --> 00:42:32,753 Speaker 2: on the ladder that goes up and rolls around. Like, 889 00:42:32,763 --> 00:42:36,013 Speaker 2: it just, it's this weird pull from reality into fantasy. 890 00:42:36,164 --> 00:42:36,684 Speaker 2: What is that 891 00:42:36,684 --> 00:42:37,114 Speaker 2: about? 892 00:42:37,563 --> 00:42:40,083 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting to bring up because that is the 893 00:42:40,083 --> 00:42:42,083 Speaker 1: part of the show that a lot of critics and 894 00:42:42,083 --> 00:42:44,073 Speaker 1: viewers had the most issue with. 895 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 1: Because a lot of what people gave the show a 896 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,881 Speaker 1: pass for is the fact that they said Amanda was 897 00:42:49,881 --> 00:42:53,121 Speaker 1: trying to tell her story and also honor Meredith's story, 898 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:54,881 Speaker 1: and we see a bit of a montage of Meredith 899 00:42:54,881 --> 00:42:56,881 Speaker 1: at the end as a sort of like, just remember, 900 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: she's at the center of this. But a lot of 901 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,131 Speaker 1: people feel that that feels very disingenuous when they also 902 00:43:02,131 --> 00:43:04,361 Speaker 1: added these fantasy elements to it. But it was a 903 00:43:04,361 --> 00:43:07,361 Speaker 1: very specific choice because Amanda Knox and the team said 904 00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:11,031 Speaker 1: that they wanted to add all these facets of magical realism. 905 00:43:11,170 --> 00:43:12,750 Speaker 1: And magical realism, if you're not 906 00:43:12,808 --> 00:43:14,558 Speaker 1: Across the whole fantasy kind of world. Like we have 907 00:43:14,558 --> 00:43:17,518 Speaker 1: high fantasy, which is a whole world being recreated with 908 00:43:17,518 --> 00:43:21,077 Speaker 1: its whole different ways of being in its own rules. 909 00:43:21,087 --> 00:43:23,758 Speaker 1: And then you have more of like fantasy, which is 910 00:43:23,758 --> 00:43:26,278 Speaker 1: very kind of old school, like a whole world that's 911 00:43:26,278 --> 00:43:29,107 Speaker 1: touched by magic, and then you have magical realism, which 912 00:43:29,107 --> 00:43:31,518 Speaker 1: is a story that takes place in our world as 913 00:43:31,518 --> 00:43:34,778 Speaker 1: it is now, and there's one tiny string of magic, 914 00:43:34,788 --> 00:43:36,558 Speaker 1: and that's what we kind of see from Amanda's point 915 00:43:36,558 --> 00:43:38,998 Speaker 1: of view. And they wanted to do that. It's interesting 916 00:43:38,998 --> 00:43:40,877 Speaker 1: because at the top of the series, you almost feel 917 00:43:40,877 --> 00:43:41,238 Speaker 1: like you're 918 00:43:41,284 --> 00:43:44,395 Speaker 1: Watching like a bit of an Italian kind of romantic drama. 919 00:43:44,475 --> 00:43:46,915 Speaker 1: And that's very deliberate from them because they wanted to 920 00:43:46,915 --> 00:43:49,705 Speaker 1: show that it's all about putting you in Amanda's mind. 921 00:43:49,915 --> 00:43:51,945 Speaker 1: And in her mind, at the start of the show, 922 00:43:52,074 --> 00:43:54,544 Speaker 1: when we meet her, she is a young woman in Italy, 923 00:43:54,754 --> 00:43:57,794 Speaker 1: having adventure and having a new romance and how intoxicating 924 00:43:57,794 --> 00:44:00,764 Speaker 1: that is. And they wanted to show that as the 925 00:44:00,764 --> 00:44:03,235 Speaker 1: story went along, those moments where you see the teddy 926 00:44:03,235 --> 00:44:05,754 Speaker 1: bears applauding her or her floating. One is that they're 927 00:44:05,754 --> 00:44:08,274 Speaker 1: trying to make a little homage to some movies, like 928 00:44:08,274 --> 00:44:09,675 Speaker 1: an Amelie or a pulp fiction. 929 00:44:10,271 --> 00:44:13,711 Speaker 2: Emily that her and Raffaeli watched the night of Meredith's murder, 930 00:44:13,791 --> 00:44:16,152 Speaker 1: which apparently is the movie they watched that night. And 931 00:44:16,152 --> 00:44:18,271 Speaker 1: there's a kind of a few fanciful scenes in that movie, 932 00:44:18,312 --> 00:44:21,271 Speaker 1: but they took it the next step higher. And this 933 00:44:21,271 --> 00:44:23,312 Speaker 1: is where I think maybe I take issue with some critics, 934 00:44:23,352 --> 00:44:25,781 Speaker 1: is like, you can't have a story that is about 935 00:44:26,112 --> 00:44:28,632 Speaker 1: telling this huge truth that's based on a rape and 936 00:44:28,632 --> 00:44:32,191 Speaker 1: murder and frame yourself as Emily. Like they're two very 937 00:44:32,191 --> 00:44:33,981 Speaker 1: different methods of storytelling 938 00:44:33,981 --> 00:44:34,872 Speaker 2: clashed. 939 00:44:35,021 --> 00:44:35,671 Speaker 1: It's jarring, 940 00:44:35,681 --> 00:44:38,152 Speaker 2: isn't it? It is jarring and it's, it's. 941 00:44:38,348 --> 00:44:40,269 Speaker 2: Hard, especially when you're looking at it from a true 942 00:44:40,269 --> 00:44:43,388 Speaker 2: crime perspective, because, like, you are, as you said earlier, 943 00:44:43,628 --> 00:44:46,628 Speaker 2: pulled into this world, which is really intense and it 944 00:44:46,628 --> 00:44:49,029 Speaker 2: feels like you're being interrogated or you're in prison with 945 00:44:49,029 --> 00:44:52,628 Speaker 2: her and you're so, like, you lose all hope at 946 00:44:52,628 --> 00:44:55,229 Speaker 2: some stages, and then, you know, it's all like butterflies 947 00:44:55,229 --> 00:44:57,618 Speaker 2: and fairies, and it feels like, oh my God, where 948 00:44:57,618 --> 00:44:59,219 Speaker 2: is my brain now supposed to take 949 00:44:59,219 --> 00:44:59,509 Speaker 2: that? 950 00:44:59,589 --> 00:45:01,428 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I would have probably maybe liked it more 951 00:45:01,428 --> 00:45:04,698 Speaker 1: as a storytelling device if maybe you can see her 952 00:45:04,698 --> 00:45:06,628 Speaker 1: from the beginning to the end as she's in prison. 953 00:45:06,716 --> 00:45:09,426 Speaker 1: For so many years, if you maybe saw her start 954 00:45:09,426 --> 00:45:11,956 Speaker 1: to lose her grip on reality as the show goes 955 00:45:11,956 --> 00:45:15,625 Speaker 1: along and she starts having some sort of illusion to that. Yeah, 956 00:45:15,746 --> 00:45:17,585 Speaker 1: maybe something, cause like, you do hear of people in 957 00:45:17,585 --> 00:45:20,506 Speaker 1: these situations that things like that happen, that their mental 958 00:45:20,506 --> 00:45:24,936 Speaker 1: state becomes so intensified that they do start hallucinating or 959 00:45:25,426 --> 00:45:28,585 Speaker 1: recreating stories. But the way it's threaded through, it's to 960 00:45:28,585 --> 00:45:31,466 Speaker 1: show that she's almost an otherworldly being, and they're trying 961 00:45:31,466 --> 00:45:33,585 Speaker 1: to show that she has this very fanciful mind. She's 962 00:45:33,585 --> 00:45:35,146 Speaker 1: not like other people, which is why 963 00:45:35,193 --> 00:45:36,943 Speaker 1: She didn't react in a certain way. So it all 964 00:45:36,943 --> 00:45:39,653 Speaker 1: comes that full circle of trying to show her innocence. 965 00:45:39,943 --> 00:45:41,542 Speaker 1: But I think it comes across as a little messy 966 00:45:41,542 --> 00:45:44,222 Speaker 1: and a little self-indulgent, and self-indulgent is what a lot 967 00:45:44,222 --> 00:45:45,282 Speaker 1: of people have labeled the 968 00:45:45,282 --> 00:45:45,462 Speaker 1: series. 969 00:45:45,542 --> 00:45:47,863 Speaker 2: And you really can't be self-indulgent when you're trying to 970 00:45:47,863 --> 00:45:50,062 Speaker 2: tell your story in the midst of the murder of 971 00:45:50,062 --> 00:45:53,103 Speaker 2: someone who you called a friend. Like, that is hard. Yeah, 972 00:45:53,262 --> 00:45:55,982 Speaker 1: it's, it's almost the thing is, like, they did what 973 00:45:55,982 --> 00:45:58,052 Speaker 1: they set out to do, which I find the interesting 974 00:45:58,052 --> 00:45:59,982 Speaker 1: thing too. Like, I find it difficult to sit down 975 00:45:59,982 --> 00:46:02,502 Speaker 1: and watch a series like this and say, but you 976 00:46:02,502 --> 00:46:03,583 Speaker 1: should have told this or you should. 977 00:46:03,820 --> 00:46:06,580 Speaker 1: told that. Like, it's the Amanda Knox story is kind 978 00:46:06,580 --> 00:46:08,260 Speaker 1: of what it's meant to be. What I think we 979 00:46:08,260 --> 00:46:10,619 Speaker 1: need is we need someone to go and make more 980 00:46:10,619 --> 00:46:14,100 Speaker 1: of a Meredith Kerch story, which, to be honest, I 981 00:46:14,100 --> 00:46:15,619 Speaker 1: don't think I've seen anything. I know a lot about 982 00:46:15,619 --> 00:46:19,010 Speaker 1: her life, but I don't think there's anything that's attributed 983 00:46:19,010 --> 00:46:21,629 Speaker 1: completely to her where we would see a dramatization of like, 984 00:46:21,860 --> 00:46:23,719 Speaker 1: her childhood, her life, her and even 985 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,229 Speaker 2: in this, we don't even see a dramatization of her murder. 986 00:46:26,619 --> 00:46:28,540 Speaker 2: We only see Amanda turn up after the 987 00:46:28,540 --> 00:46:29,010 Speaker 2: fact. 988 00:46:29,340 --> 00:46:31,459 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I guess like the thinking from the writer's 989 00:46:31,459 --> 00:46:32,100 Speaker 1: team is that they 990 00:46:32,146 --> 00:46:34,376 Speaker 1: Didn't want to, they obviously have to use her name 991 00:46:34,376 --> 00:46:36,066 Speaker 1: in her story because it's so wrapped up in Amanda, 992 00:46:36,136 --> 00:46:38,457 Speaker 1: but they didn't want it to be overly gory and 993 00:46:38,457 --> 00:46:42,086 Speaker 1: see that as kind of like a voyeurism into her murder, 994 00:46:42,177 --> 00:46:44,257 Speaker 1: which so much of true crime can be if done 995 00:46:44,257 --> 00:46:45,177 Speaker 1: the wrong way. It can 996 00:46:45,177 --> 00:46:47,737 Speaker 2: be, but also, like, when we're talking about the rape 997 00:46:47,737 --> 00:46:50,937 Speaker 2: and murder of a young woman, it feels like that 998 00:46:50,937 --> 00:46:54,007 Speaker 2: should be given a bit more gravitas than it has. Like, 999 00:46:54,017 --> 00:46:57,727 Speaker 2: it wasn't, we weren't given a moment to mourn Meredith 1000 00:46:57,727 --> 00:47:00,207 Speaker 2: at all during this whole thing. And maybe that's the point, 1001 00:47:00,257 --> 00:47:00,576 Speaker 2: because a 1002 00:47:00,624 --> 00:47:03,733 Speaker 2: Amanda also wasn't given an opportunity to mourn her friend. Like, 1003 00:47:03,773 --> 00:47:06,573 Speaker 2: maybe that's the reason for that. But myself as, you know, 1004 00:47:06,694 --> 00:47:11,134 Speaker 2: the voyeur looking in on this, I felt like Meredith 1005 00:47:11,134 --> 00:47:14,094 Speaker 2: was this kind of otherworldly character who you never really 1006 00:47:14,094 --> 00:47:14,454 Speaker 2: get to 1007 00:47:14,454 --> 00:47:14,803 Speaker 2: know. 1008 00:47:14,934 --> 00:47:17,973 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's like a faceless victim, almost in a story 1009 00:47:17,973 --> 00:47:20,694 Speaker 1: that is about the end of her life, but also 1010 00:47:20,694 --> 00:47:22,253 Speaker 1: her life and her, and I know there's sometimes like 1011 00:47:22,253 --> 00:47:24,333 Speaker 1: in the, they do like cut to looking at her 1012 00:47:24,333 --> 00:47:26,454 Speaker 1: family members and cut to looking at her friends. And 1013 00:47:26,454 --> 00:47:27,813 Speaker 1: so you get, you get a little bit of her 1014 00:47:27,813 --> 00:47:28,973 Speaker 1: life through their reaction. 1015 00:47:29,293 --> 00:47:31,723 Speaker 1: But not a lot. And I guess it's also at 1016 00:47:31,723 --> 00:47:34,434 Speaker 1: the top of the show, because it's told through Amanda's perspective, 1017 00:47:34,444 --> 00:47:37,124 Speaker 1: and though it's dramatized, it very much shows her and 1018 00:47:37,124 --> 00:47:40,644 Speaker 1: Meredith becoming friends and this closeness between them, which if 1019 00:47:40,644 --> 00:47:44,964 Speaker 1: you listen to any of Meredith's friends or family, they 1020 00:47:44,964 --> 00:47:47,243 Speaker 1: say that they weren't close friends, they didn't get along, 1021 00:47:47,354 --> 00:47:50,803 Speaker 1: that um, Meredith felt very uneasy about her. And something 1022 00:47:50,803 --> 00:47:52,644 Speaker 1: about that I find almost more troubling. 1023 00:47:53,083 --> 00:47:56,374 Speaker 1: Because not showing the murder and the impact of the 1024 00:47:56,374 --> 00:47:59,813 Speaker 1: rape is definitely not the best choice, but also rewriting 1025 00:47:59,813 --> 00:48:00,523 Speaker 1: this woman. 1026 00:48:00,983 --> 00:48:03,823 Speaker 1: To have this friendship she didn't have to make the 1027 00:48:03,823 --> 00:48:07,263 Speaker 1: character of Amanda look more sympathetic, is also a disservice 1028 00:48:07,263 --> 00:48:08,864 Speaker 1: to her, I think. Cause you're 1029 00:48:08,864 --> 00:48:11,503 Speaker 2: just. But again, this is from Amanda's perspective, and 1030 00:48:11,503 --> 00:48:11,743 Speaker 1: she 1031 00:48:11,743 --> 00:48:14,583 Speaker 1: says they were friends, yeah. So that, that's the hard 1032 00:48:14,583 --> 00:48:16,704 Speaker 1: I think, the blurring line of I almost wish they 1033 00:48:16,704 --> 00:48:18,904 Speaker 1: had made it a bit more, almost a bit more 1034 00:48:18,904 --> 00:48:22,293 Speaker 1: fanciful and a bit more of a series rather than 1035 00:48:22,293 --> 00:48:24,743 Speaker 1: like a beat by beat retelling of an event, because 1036 00:48:24,743 --> 00:48:27,303 Speaker 1: it makes it even harder to kind of separate fact 1037 00:48:27,303 --> 00:48:28,864 Speaker 1: and fiction because it's so meshed 1038 00:48:28,864 --> 00:48:30,023 Speaker 2: together. It is really mesh. 1039 00:48:30,164 --> 00:48:32,543 Speaker 2: Together. And if you do want the answer to this question, 1040 00:48:32,753 --> 00:48:36,674 Speaker 2: did Amanda return to Italy many years later, after she'd 1041 00:48:36,674 --> 00:48:39,154 Speaker 2: married Christopher Robinson and had a little baby girl, who 1042 00:48:39,154 --> 00:48:42,503 Speaker 2: we talked about earlier, to meet with Mignini, who is, 1043 00:48:42,874 --> 00:48:45,473 Speaker 2: she calls him my prosecutor, who, the man who investigated 1044 00:48:45,473 --> 00:48:48,793 Speaker 2: and then prosecuted the case. Yes, she did do that. 1045 00:48:49,154 --> 00:48:51,233 Speaker 2: She did return to Italy, she did have a conversation 1046 00:48:51,233 --> 00:48:54,414 Speaker 2: with him. We only know from Amanda's perspective what that 1047 00:48:54,414 --> 00:48:56,594 Speaker 2: conversation looks like. And then there is a scene at 1048 00:48:56,594 --> 00:48:59,434 Speaker 2: the end, which makes it look like Mignini. 1049 00:48:59,533 --> 00:49:03,043 Speaker 2: Goes to confession. We don't know if that's true. But 1050 00:49:03,043 --> 00:49:06,523 Speaker 2: the priest who Amanda spoke to in jail and who 1051 00:49:06,523 --> 00:49:09,844 Speaker 2: also happened to be Mignini's childhood priest, and who helped 1052 00:49:09,844 --> 00:49:12,154 Speaker 2: bring them together at the end, he's a real person. 1053 00:49:12,404 --> 00:49:16,364 Speaker 2: And so maybe that did happen. Maybe that did. Who knows? 1054 00:49:16,523 --> 00:49:18,273 Speaker 2: But yeah, there's a lot of blurring of lines here, 1055 00:49:18,404 --> 00:49:19,604 Speaker 2: but you just got to remember when you're going to 1056 00:49:19,604 --> 00:49:23,194 Speaker 2: watch this, it is from Amanda's perspective. It's her narrative, 1057 00:49:23,323 --> 00:49:26,083 Speaker 2: it's her story. It's not Meredith's story. That's a story 1058 00:49:26,083 --> 00:49:26,444 Speaker 2: we're still 1059 00:49:26,444 --> 00:49:27,073 Speaker 2: yet to hear. 1060 00:49:27,283 --> 00:49:28,854 Speaker 1: And Amanda has actually addressed 1061 00:49:28,904 --> 00:49:32,214 Speaker 1: What her relationship with Meredith Kercher's family looks like now 1062 00:49:32,214 --> 00:49:35,614 Speaker 1: on Mamma Mia's No Filter podcast, talking to Kate Lanbrook and, 1063 00:49:35,723 --> 00:49:38,364 Speaker 1: and kind of explaining where she sits with the family now. 1064 00:49:38,533 --> 00:49:38,894 Speaker 2: Thanks so 1065 00:49:38,894 --> 00:49:42,573 Speaker 2: much for listening to this very special crossover episode of 1066 00:49:42,573 --> 00:49:45,293 Speaker 2: the Spiel and True Crime Conversations. The spiel is produced 1067 00:49:45,293 --> 00:49:48,493 Speaker 2: by Monisha Iswaran, and True Crime Conversations is produced by 1068 00:49:48,493 --> 00:49:51,493 Speaker 2: Talie Blackman. Audio production for this episode was done by 1069 00:49:51,493 --> 00:49:54,894 Speaker 2: Scott Stronick with video production by Julian Rosario. Bye. We 1070 00:49:54,894 --> 00:49:55,854 Speaker 2: should do this again one day. 1071 00:49:55,973 --> 00:49:58,063 Speaker 1: We should. Stay tuned for another crossover. 1072 00:50:02,414 --> 00:50:02,424 Speaker 1: Yeah.