WEBVTT - Hedley Thomas Is Searching For Bronwyn 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:16.182 You're listening to a Mother Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.702 the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was 0:00:19.742 --> 0:00:28.862 recorded on It's Sunday, the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety 0:00:28.862 --> 0:00:31.582 three in Lennox Head in New South Wales, a laid 0:00:31.582 --> 0:00:34.462 back coastal town full of families and people in search 0:00:34.502 --> 0:00:37.302 of the quiet life away from the hustle and bustle. 0:00:38.502 --> 0:00:40.982 Ron Win Winfield is getting her daughter's ten year old 0:00:40.982 --> 0:00:44.022 Crystal and five year old Lauren ready for bed. It's 0:00:44.022 --> 0:00:46.942 been a big weekend. Her Rex's husband has been in 0:00:46.982 --> 0:00:49.622 Sydney on a construction job, so she has moved her 0:00:49.622 --> 0:00:52.662 girls back into the family home. They've been staying in 0:00:52.662 --> 0:00:54.942 a townhouse on the road out of town for seven 0:00:55.022 --> 0:00:58.742 weeks since she filed for divorce, but as winter approaches, 0:00:59.142 --> 0:01:02.902 it's been getting cold within their new walls. So here 0:01:02.942 --> 0:01:07.142 she is taking a stand and reclaiming the Sandstone Crescent 0:01:07.182 --> 0:01:11.622 property she once shared with John while he's away on business. Tonight, 0:01:12.262 --> 0:01:14.822 John is on his way back to Lennox. His flight 0:01:14.902 --> 0:01:19.422 touches down at six thirty pm. Bronwin has his belongings packed. 0:01:19.862 --> 0:01:23.102 She has every intention of staying in their marital home 0:01:23.502 --> 0:01:26.022 of fighting for the home she's raised her girls in. 0:01:27.222 --> 0:01:31.782 But after John returns home, it's Bronwyn who leaves alone. 0:01:32.902 --> 0:01:36.622 According to him, she needed a break and left into 0:01:36.662 --> 0:01:40.622 an unknown person's car that very same night. That Sunday 0:01:41.462 --> 0:01:43.582 is the last time the thirty one year old mother 0:01:43.622 --> 0:01:55.342 of two is ever seen again. I'm Jemma Bath and 0:01:55.422 --> 0:01:59.302 this is True Crime Conversations a Mama mea podcast exploring 0:01:59.302 --> 0:02:02.542 the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people 0:02:02.582 --> 0:02:06.302 who know the most about them. The disappearance of Bronwyn 0:02:06.342 --> 0:02:09.742 Winfield was barely covered by the media in nineteen ninety three. 0:02:10.702 --> 0:02:13.742 It took eleven days for John to actually report her 0:02:13.782 --> 0:02:17.222 as missing after that Sunday night. Very little was done 0:02:17.222 --> 0:02:19.942 in the way of a police investigation in those early days. 0:02:20.302 --> 0:02:22.742 In fact, it would be years until her case was 0:02:22.782 --> 0:02:27.582 actually taken seriously. A coronial inquest nearly a decade later 0:02:28.102 --> 0:02:32.022 determined that Bronwin had likely been murdered. It went as 0:02:32.062 --> 0:02:35.662 far as recommending John be prosecuted, but that never happened. 0:02:36.502 --> 0:02:40.382 Bronwin's case is the focus of Headley Thomas's new podcast investigation. 0:02:41.222 --> 0:02:44.822 You'll remember him from The Teacher's Pet. The investigation into 0:02:44.902 --> 0:02:48.382 missing mother of two Lynette Simms, formerly known as Lynett 0:02:48.422 --> 0:02:52.142 Dawson in Sydney. She vanished from her Bayview home in 0:02:52.262 --> 0:02:55.942 nineteen eighty two, and her former husband, Chris Dawson, was 0:02:55.982 --> 0:02:59.822 convicted of murder in twenty twenty two after Headley went 0:02:59.902 --> 0:03:03.742 digging and brought the case back into the light. Now 0:03:04.222 --> 0:03:07.462 in twenty twenty four, he's hopeful of getting some answers 0:03:07.502 --> 0:03:11.582 for Bromwin's family. He's speaking to her friend, her family, 0:03:12.022 --> 0:03:15.222 the police, and the last people who saw Bromwin before 0:03:15.262 --> 0:03:19.222 she disappeared. He's currently in the midst of his investigation, 0:03:19.902 --> 0:03:22.102 but Hedley joins us now to tell us about what 0:03:22.142 --> 0:03:33.942 he's uncovered so far. So, you've spoken to lots of 0:03:33.982 --> 0:03:37.102 people who know Bronwin Winfield by now, how would you 0:03:37.142 --> 0:03:38.582 describe her? Who was she? 0:03:39.582 --> 0:03:43.342 Bromwin was a young woman who was seeking from a 0:03:43.422 --> 0:03:47.102 very early age the stability of family. She had grown 0:03:47.222 --> 0:03:51.982 up in a family that became very dislocated. Her own 0:03:52.022 --> 0:03:56.622 mother had serious mental health challenges when Bromwin was very 0:03:56.702 --> 0:04:01.102 very young. She had postatal depression and she also had 0:04:01.182 --> 0:04:05.742 what was described at the time as a schizo effective disorder. 0:04:06.502 --> 0:04:11.582 It wasn't well understood in the nineteen sixties, and Barbara, 0:04:11.862 --> 0:04:16.822 who is Bromlin's mum, ended up really just trying to 0:04:16.822 --> 0:04:20.702 find her own way, no longer being the mother of 0:04:21.022 --> 0:04:26.062 Bromwin and Andrew, so she went overseas and stayed overseas 0:04:26.102 --> 0:04:29.502 with her own mother for some years while Bromlin was 0:04:29.542 --> 0:04:34.702 being raised with her brother by their father and their 0:04:34.742 --> 0:04:39.702 father's second wife, Jennifer. As a result, when Barbara came 0:04:39.782 --> 0:04:44.982 back into their lives, Bromin was already about eleven years old, 0:04:45.342 --> 0:04:50.942 Andy Andrew was nine, and Andy didn't know that he 0:04:51.262 --> 0:04:54.942 had a biological mother who had been away all those years. 0:04:55.342 --> 0:05:00.342 It's unclear whether Bromwin knew, but the recollection of other 0:05:00.382 --> 0:05:04.102 people is that Bromwin did know in any event, when 0:05:04.182 --> 0:05:08.222 Barbara returned from overseas and really wanted to play a 0:05:08.262 --> 0:05:12.222 significant and important role in the lives of her children, 0:05:12.742 --> 0:05:16.222 you know, she had been replaced by another woman who 0:05:16.262 --> 0:05:20.862 had effectively been their mother, and we must have been 0:05:21.582 --> 0:05:28.422 incredibly destabilizing for both children, and on the one hand, 0:05:28.822 --> 0:05:32.982 natural surprise at realizing that they had not known of 0:05:32.982 --> 0:05:35.622 their own mother for so long and then wanting to 0:05:36.022 --> 0:05:40.222 understand how that happens, and their natural mother becoming part 0:05:40.262 --> 0:05:44.262 of their lives, and their stepmother, who they had called mother, 0:05:44.782 --> 0:05:51.222 perhaps feeling herself somewhat replaced. So I think these must 0:05:51.262 --> 0:05:57.942 have contributed to Bromin's desires when she reached adulthood to 0:05:58.102 --> 0:06:03.342 forego career, to forego travel, to really just focus on 0:06:03.742 --> 0:06:07.622 trying to have the perfect family. She just wanted the 0:06:07.662 --> 0:06:12.662 white picket fence, the perfect little home, happy marriage, and 0:06:12.862 --> 0:06:17.662 healthy children. And she loved children. She adored kids. She 0:06:17.862 --> 0:06:22.462 was by all accounts, a wonderful young mum and certainly 0:06:22.542 --> 0:06:26.782 showed no evidence of having any mental health challenges, apart 0:06:26.982 --> 0:06:30.742 from it has to be said she did have some 0:06:30.902 --> 0:06:35.822 depression postnatal depression after the birth of her own first child. 0:06:37.022 --> 0:06:39.262 That really sets the scene of her being a real 0:06:39.422 --> 0:06:42.622 family woman mother. And she did have a bit of 0:06:42.662 --> 0:06:45.942 an unusual setup there because she had two children. But 0:06:45.982 --> 0:06:49.862 then she also brought in John, her husband's third daughter. 0:06:49.942 --> 0:06:52.742 Didn't she can you help us understand the family unit? 0:06:52.942 --> 0:06:59.542 In the nineties, so Bromwin had her first child, Crystal, 0:07:00.222 --> 0:07:06.342 with her long term boyfriend, guy called Mark, and she 0:07:07.022 --> 0:07:10.862 didn't marry Mark. She married a guy called Gary Bear 0:07:11.222 --> 0:07:16.462 and that marriage was short lived. Then when she met John. 0:07:17.102 --> 0:07:20.742 She had a child with John, Lauren, who was Bromin's 0:07:20.742 --> 0:07:25.342 second child, but John also had a child from his 0:07:25.542 --> 0:07:30.702 first marriage. John had been married twice before he met Bromin, 0:07:31.422 --> 0:07:37.662 and he had Jody from his first wife, and John 0:07:37.782 --> 0:07:41.782 and John's parents had been looking after Jody. Jody didn't 0:07:41.782 --> 0:07:45.822 grow up with her own natural mother, and that was 0:07:45.862 --> 0:07:49.902 a source of great regret for that woman, and we 0:07:50.022 --> 0:07:53.582 will deal with that in the podcast. But Bromlin was 0:07:53.622 --> 0:07:56.662 of the view when she and John got together that 0:07:56.782 --> 0:07:59.702 Jody should become part of their family unit, that she 0:07:59.742 --> 0:08:02.662 should no longer be living with her grandparents and being 0:08:02.742 --> 0:08:06.182 raised with them. So she brought Jody into the family 0:08:06.222 --> 0:08:08.702 home that she and John were trying to create in 0:08:08.982 --> 0:08:11.302 the Shire in south of Sydney. 0:08:11.942 --> 0:08:14.222 Tell me about the first time you heard about Bromwyn 0:08:14.262 --> 0:08:14.982 and her story. 0:08:16.022 --> 0:08:20.942 I was sitting in the living room of a former 0:08:20.982 --> 0:08:26.342 deputy state corner called Karl Milavanovitch, and Karl was someone 0:08:26.422 --> 0:08:29.062 I was meeting for the first time a week before 0:08:29.182 --> 0:08:34.542 Christmas twenty seventeen, and I had just been doing some 0:08:35.062 --> 0:08:41.262 really exhausting, emotionally but also very affecting interviews with people 0:08:41.302 --> 0:08:44.862 who knew Lynn. Lynn Dawson, who we now refer to 0:08:44.862 --> 0:08:49.622 as LYNL. Sims. And we were rushing around because I 0:08:49.662 --> 0:08:52.982 was doing these interviews for The Teacher's Pet in December 0:08:53.022 --> 0:08:56.462 twenty seventeen. We were still six months out from releasing 0:08:56.622 --> 0:09:00.302 the first episode of that series, but I was trying 0:09:00.342 --> 0:09:03.022 to do as many interviews as possible in a shorter 0:09:03.142 --> 0:09:06.022 time as possible, And so we drove out there and 0:09:06.102 --> 0:09:09.422 Carl welcomed us very warmly, and he was happy to 0:09:09.462 --> 0:09:12.382 talk to us about the that he had run back 0:09:12.422 --> 0:09:18.262 in two thousand and three into Lynette's presumed death, and 0:09:18.542 --> 0:09:22.142 as a result of that inquest, Carl recommended that Chris 0:09:22.262 --> 0:09:26.982 Awso be prosecuted for murder. He also made a ruling 0:09:27.222 --> 0:09:31.062 that Lynnette was dead and had been dead since nineteen 0:09:31.062 --> 0:09:35.262 eighty two, when she supposedly, according to Chris, went off 0:09:35.302 --> 0:09:37.422 to start a new life or do whatever Chris said 0:09:37.462 --> 0:09:40.302 it she was doing. He was peddling all sorts of 0:09:40.382 --> 0:09:44.142 lies at that time. And Carl, in the course of 0:09:44.222 --> 0:09:48.982 talking about Lynnette, he talked to me about his concerns 0:09:49.022 --> 0:09:53.902 about a number of other missing women cases. And this 0:09:53.982 --> 0:09:57.542 was in the context of Carl explaining that the police 0:09:57.582 --> 0:10:03.622 investigation in Lynn's case was so poor. She was treated 0:10:03.982 --> 0:10:08.142 just quite appallingly as a mother who didn't care about 0:10:08.142 --> 0:10:11.062 her children, who didn't care about her home, her friend, family, 0:10:11.142 --> 0:10:14.902 a job, and just took off run away mum. And 0:10:16.022 --> 0:10:20.262 it was stupid. It was a reckless response by police, 0:10:20.902 --> 0:10:25.022 possibly even corrupt at that time. But Karl made the 0:10:25.062 --> 0:10:30.582 point that it wasn't that case alone that concerned him. 0:10:30.662 --> 0:10:34.822 He had dealt with other missing mother, missing women cases 0:10:34.862 --> 0:10:39.022 where the police response had been very, very shabby. And 0:10:39.262 --> 0:10:44.382 he mentioned this case that he had done in lenox Head, 0:10:44.542 --> 0:10:48.382 his mother from Sandstone Crescent, lenox Head, and he said 0:10:48.382 --> 0:10:51.702 her name bronwin Winfield. He gave me a little summary 0:10:51.742 --> 0:10:54.062 of it, and you know, I just made a mental 0:10:54.102 --> 0:10:57.342 note then, and I think I googled it soon afterwards 0:10:57.342 --> 0:11:00.062 and realized it was very little on the public record 0:11:00.102 --> 0:11:03.062 about her. I was intrigued. I opened a folder on 0:11:03.142 --> 0:11:07.142 my laptop wanting to revisit this case because I had 0:11:07.142 --> 0:11:09.662 so much respect for Carl and his judgment. I thought 0:11:09.702 --> 0:11:12.342 there must be so much much more to this. And 0:11:12.942 --> 0:11:16.142 I couldn't do much at that time because I was 0:11:16.142 --> 0:11:20.942 so busy trying to do more interviews and investigate leads 0:11:20.942 --> 0:11:23.782 and so on for the Teacher's Pet. But as the 0:11:23.822 --> 0:11:28.902 episodes from the Teacher's Pet began coming out, people who 0:11:28.982 --> 0:11:35.022 were following Lynn's story and all the evidence of Crisp 0:11:35.582 --> 0:11:39.982 having groom schoolgirls and having then murdered his wife in 0:11:40.062 --> 0:11:43.822 cold blood. A number of people who knew Bronwin contacted 0:11:43.822 --> 0:11:47.062 me out of the blue, just emailing me and saying, 0:11:47.782 --> 0:11:50.102 you know, this is one that you may have time 0:11:50.142 --> 0:11:54.222 to investigate one day as well. This story was very concerning. 0:11:54.382 --> 0:11:58.182 This case was very concerning, and one of those people 0:11:58.262 --> 0:12:02.702 was Matt Fordham, who was the senior police officer with 0:12:02.822 --> 0:12:06.982 the legal degree who handled the inquest when Karl ran 0:12:07.022 --> 0:12:10.902 the inquest in two thousand and two. So you know 0:12:10.942 --> 0:12:13.702 that's the history of this. A year before Karl had 0:12:13.742 --> 0:12:17.982 run Lin's in quest, had done Bromlin's and it was 0:12:18.062 --> 0:12:22.302 one of a number of cases that concerned him because 0:12:22.902 --> 0:12:27.822 there was no rational explanation for the disappearance of both 0:12:27.862 --> 0:12:30.662 these women, these dedicated mothers. 0:12:31.942 --> 0:12:35.142 All these years later, you've been able to actually dedicate 0:12:35.262 --> 0:12:40.822 time to this case, to Bronwin's story. I think, knowing 0:12:40.862 --> 0:12:43.902 so much about Linn's story and the Teacher's Pet, it 0:12:44.022 --> 0:12:47.462 is very eerie how similar these cases are. Have you 0:12:47.582 --> 0:12:49.582 found that while investigating them? 0:12:50.262 --> 0:12:55.462 Yeah? I really have, And it's almost like parts of 0:12:55.502 --> 0:13:00.182 them are a mirror image. One key difference is that 0:13:00.782 --> 0:13:05.902 Bromlin had separated from her husband John. She wanted to 0:13:05.982 --> 0:13:10.542 go her own way. She could no longer tolerate aspects 0:13:10.582 --> 0:13:14.382 of his behavior. She felt like she was living almost 0:13:14.382 --> 0:13:17.422 in a prison. The things that she would describe, which 0:13:17.462 --> 0:13:21.902 we now know as very extreme coercive control, are set 0:13:21.942 --> 0:13:27.262 out in her own writings. She was in longhand penning 0:13:27.782 --> 0:13:33.022 so many points and recollections and aspects of her relationship, 0:13:33.062 --> 0:13:36.102 a failing relationship with her husband that when we go 0:13:36.222 --> 0:13:39.302 back now and read those and think about those, you 0:13:39.342 --> 0:13:42.782 know it is a very powerful demonstration of a marriage 0:13:42.822 --> 0:13:46.982 that is doomed because of the possessiveness and control of 0:13:47.342 --> 0:13:50.782 one partner. That's how it's represented. Of course, there's always 0:13:50.822 --> 0:13:53.782 two sides of the story, but we've not heard John's. 0:13:53.782 --> 0:13:57.742 He's preferred to keep that to himself. But the similarities 0:13:57.822 --> 0:14:01.102 in other ways are very clear. Let's think about the 0:14:01.142 --> 0:14:06.862 fundamental similarities. The most obvious ones a young mother with 0:14:07.542 --> 0:14:13.902 no addictions, with no other potential catastrophe in her life, 0:14:14.502 --> 0:14:17.102 The sorts of things that could cause a young mother 0:14:17.222 --> 0:14:21.262 to just lose her bearings suddenly disappears on the eve 0:14:21.302 --> 0:14:24.942 of her going to see her lawyer about property settlement 0:14:25.022 --> 0:14:28.142 matters relating to the fact that she separated from her 0:14:28.182 --> 0:14:31.182 husband and she wants to get a divorce as soon 0:14:31.262 --> 0:14:34.622 as lawfully possible, so she's got an appointment on a 0:14:34.662 --> 0:14:38.102 Monday morning to see her lawyer. She's already had several 0:14:38.142 --> 0:14:42.142 appointments with lawyers about the marriage that she wants to end, 0:14:43.182 --> 0:14:47.702 and on a Sunday evening, the night before she sees 0:14:47.742 --> 0:14:51.062 her husband for the first time in several weeks, he 0:14:51.142 --> 0:14:53.942 comes up to the family home from Sydney, where he's 0:14:53.982 --> 0:14:57.742 been working building a house. He goes to the house 0:14:57.782 --> 0:15:00.702 that Bromwin has been living in with her children, the 0:15:00.782 --> 0:15:04.742 house that John himself literally built with his bare hands, 0:15:05.862 --> 0:15:09.062 and he agrees that they have an altercation that evening, 0:15:09.662 --> 0:15:13.342 and he's the last person to ever see her, and 0:15:13.422 --> 0:15:17.102 she doesn't touch her bank account. Ever, she doesn't have 0:15:17.182 --> 0:15:22.622 any further contact with anybody. She certainly doesn't catch up 0:15:22.942 --> 0:15:26.182 with any of the milestones or significant events in her 0:15:26.262 --> 0:15:29.102 children's lives, their age ten and five at that time. 0:15:29.582 --> 0:15:32.742 She doesn't turn up for work, doesn't reach out to 0:15:32.862 --> 0:15:38.662 her mother, her brother, her other loved ones, and she's 0:15:38.742 --> 0:15:43.582 just again written off as the mum who decided to 0:15:43.622 --> 0:15:48.302 take off, leaving behind her children, not to mention leaving 0:15:48.342 --> 0:15:52.302 behind the means by which she could support herself equity 0:15:52.502 --> 0:15:54.582 in a house that was going to be sold, she 0:15:54.662 --> 0:15:58.822 would have been entitled to perhaps half, maybe even more 0:15:58.862 --> 0:16:03.222 because of her care for the children of this house. 0:16:03.262 --> 0:16:06.062 It was worth a quarter of a million dollars in 0:16:06.182 --> 0:16:11.422 nineteen ninety three. And I think that such a proposition 0:16:11.902 --> 0:16:14.382 that a woman would just up and leave all of 0:16:14.422 --> 0:16:17.862 that without warning, without anyone knowing of any such plan 0:16:17.942 --> 0:16:22.742 to do so, is just so ridiculous. Anyone who thinks 0:16:23.102 --> 0:16:25.742 that it should be taken seriously deserves to be checked 0:16:25.782 --> 0:16:28.502 into an embarrassment clinic. I mean, it's just so stupid. 0:16:29.262 --> 0:16:32.982 And yet that was the theory that the police adopted, 0:16:32.982 --> 0:16:38.902 and they made some absolutely appalling errors early on when 0:16:38.942 --> 0:16:42.622 they were being asked to investigatein as a missing person, 0:16:43.462 --> 0:16:47.662 some errors that you could not fathom would be capable 0:16:47.822 --> 0:16:51.022 of detectives with some seniority, And yet they did, and 0:16:51.062 --> 0:16:53.542 they persuaded themselves that she'd just gone off. 0:16:53.902 --> 0:16:56.462 Let's delve into some of those details. I want to 0:16:56.502 --> 0:17:00.142 start with the marriage because Lennox is a small coastal town. 0:17:00.782 --> 0:17:04.542 People talk, and by all accounts, it seems that Bronwin 0:17:04.702 --> 0:17:07.662 was quite open with a lot of people about her 0:17:07.822 --> 0:17:10.462 unhappiness in her marriage and what was going on and 0:17:10.662 --> 0:17:13.942 sharing details. You mentioned a bit of coercive control, but 0:17:13.982 --> 0:17:16.782 what else was happening in that marriage. 0:17:17.022 --> 0:17:20.902 People who visited Bromwin at the house in Sandstone Crescent 0:17:21.742 --> 0:17:27.142 were aware that she walked around as if on eggshells 0:17:27.262 --> 0:17:30.702 while they were there, and that was because, in their opinion, 0:17:31.462 --> 0:17:35.902 John didn't really want visitors at the house. Ever, He 0:17:35.942 --> 0:17:39.822 didn't like seeing other people in his house, and he 0:17:39.942 --> 0:17:46.582 was incredibly particular about any mess, so literally crumbs that 0:17:46.662 --> 0:17:50.622 were spilled on the floor would have the potential of 0:17:50.702 --> 0:17:54.102 setting him off. According to some of these people, Bromwin 0:17:54.262 --> 0:17:58.262 used to cover the taps at the sink with a 0:17:58.342 --> 0:18:03.702 tee tar when she was peeling potatoes so that the 0:18:03.742 --> 0:18:07.302 starch and water and so on from the peeled potatoes 0:18:07.582 --> 0:18:11.822 wouldn't actually jump onto the taps and potentially show up 0:18:11.862 --> 0:18:17.302 as a little blemish. Now, that sounds like a personality 0:18:17.342 --> 0:18:20.302 tray or disorder that you know lots of people have. 0:18:20.422 --> 0:18:24.222 It doesn't make you a violent person. It doesn't make 0:18:24.262 --> 0:18:28.022 you some unlikely or possibly capable of murdering your wife 0:18:28.102 --> 0:18:31.862 and concealing for body for thirty one years. However, it 0:18:31.982 --> 0:18:35.542 did produce a huge amount of tension in the relationship. 0:18:35.542 --> 0:18:39.902 It meant that Bromwin couldn't actually have people over without 0:18:40.462 --> 0:18:44.902 being very stressed. Her friend Deb Hall, who lived next door, 0:18:45.662 --> 0:18:49.182 said that Bromwin would have friends who she would ask 0:18:49.262 --> 0:18:53.222 Deb to host at her house. Dev didn't actually have 0:18:53.302 --> 0:18:55.382 the same bonds with these people, and Deb was only 0:18:55.382 --> 0:18:58.342 too happy to help, but Bromwin was terrified that she'd 0:18:58.422 --> 0:19:03.382 upset John that could trigger him if he saw these friends. 0:19:03.822 --> 0:19:07.702 Another good friend of Bromwin's was a woman called Bridgeta 0:19:08.142 --> 0:19:12.902 in the Shire, and she described Vibed in the early 0:19:12.982 --> 0:19:16.062 years of the relationship. When Bromin first started seeing John. 0:19:16.662 --> 0:19:19.702 She described the sort of the light and the happiness 0:19:19.742 --> 0:19:24.102 that she used to see in Bromen just diminishing and 0:19:24.142 --> 0:19:28.862 being replaced by a sense of unease in Bromman and 0:19:29.142 --> 0:19:34.022 Bromwin once told Brigida that she was reluctant to go 0:19:34.102 --> 0:19:37.142 out driving and visiting Bridgeta, even though they had been 0:19:37.142 --> 0:19:40.942 friends for so many years since high school, because John 0:19:40.982 --> 0:19:45.622 would check how much fuel she'd used and try to 0:19:45.662 --> 0:19:49.582 work out where she had gone. John's second wife, who 0:19:49.662 --> 0:19:52.662 we referred to as d in the podcast, She told 0:19:52.702 --> 0:19:57.862 me that John was not violent towards her, but their 0:19:57.862 --> 0:20:01.862 marriage lasted just eighteen months, and she told me that 0:20:01.982 --> 0:20:06.782 was because he was just extraordinarily possessive. They'd be walking 0:20:06.822 --> 0:20:10.222 down the street together and she would be feeling the 0:20:10.222 --> 0:20:13.462 same unshine and thinking how nice is this. They're probably 0:20:13.502 --> 0:20:17.622 walking hand in hand, and she said that he would 0:20:17.702 --> 0:20:20.302 then ask her why she was looking at a guy 0:20:20.342 --> 0:20:22.622 a certain way, Why are you looking him? Why are 0:20:22.622 --> 0:20:24.542 you staring at him? Do you like him? This kind 0:20:24.582 --> 0:20:29.942 of obviously very jealous insecurity that would lead to disagreements 0:20:29.982 --> 0:20:31.902 because she wasn't looking at anybody. 0:20:33.142 --> 0:20:35.502 The early nineties was a very different time in terms 0:20:35.582 --> 0:20:40.302 of what we thought domestic violence. Look like, we've come 0:20:40.342 --> 0:20:42.782 a long way in the last twenty thirty years in 0:20:42.902 --> 0:20:45.662 terms of knowing that it's not just physical, it's emotional, 0:20:45.662 --> 0:20:49.702 it's financial, it's coercive, it's isolation. Do you think that 0:20:49.702 --> 0:20:53.662 that contributed to everything going on that perhaps Bronwin and 0:20:53.742 --> 0:20:57.262 her community didn't have a word for it. They didn't 0:20:57.382 --> 0:21:00.622 understand what was going on or think it was as 0:21:00.662 --> 0:21:01.502 bad as it was. 0:21:03.022 --> 0:21:07.382 Yeah, it's a really interesting question because it's very hard 0:21:07.422 --> 0:21:11.342 to put yourself in that place at that time. You know, 0:21:11.382 --> 0:21:14.022 we're talking about the early nineteen nineties, and I think 0:21:14.062 --> 0:21:17.742 we did have a lot of awareness about domestic violence. Certainly, 0:21:18.142 --> 0:21:22.942 things like apprehended violence orders were part of the legal 0:21:22.982 --> 0:21:26.742 system's response to concerns of women. So we should have 0:21:26.782 --> 0:21:30.902 been becoming much better educated about these things. You know, 0:21:31.022 --> 0:21:35.302 John emphatically denies wrongdoing, and no doubt he denies that 0:21:35.342 --> 0:21:38.102 he ever lifted a finger against Bromlin, but she also 0:21:38.142 --> 0:21:42.262 did confide to friends like Denise Barnard that he really 0:21:42.302 --> 0:21:46.582 scared her. Bromman told Denise, and Denise told police, and 0:21:46.702 --> 0:21:50.662 has told me that Bromwin said one day he had 0:21:50.662 --> 0:21:54.902 put his hands around her throat and was acting in 0:21:54.942 --> 0:21:58.662 a really threatening way. She was worried about choking, and 0:21:58.702 --> 0:22:01.382 I think we know from the literature that this is 0:22:01.382 --> 0:22:07.022 a very serious precursor to much worse events. 0:22:10.622 --> 0:22:14.262 You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Jemma Bath. 0:22:14.862 --> 0:22:19.022 I'm speaking with Hedley Thomas about the disappearance of Bronwyn Winfield. 0:22:19.822 --> 0:22:23.142 Up next, we find out why the DPP declined a 0:22:23.182 --> 0:22:27.222 recommendation to charge the missing mother's ex husband with murder. 0:22:33.422 --> 0:22:37.782 When Bronwyn decided to divorce John, she was starting to 0:22:37.862 --> 0:22:40.062 try and create a new life for herself, wasn't she. 0:22:40.582 --> 0:22:45.382 Yeah, In late March, Bromwin wanted to make that break 0:22:45.742 --> 0:22:47.822 and she had very little in the way of money, 0:22:48.302 --> 0:22:50.582 so it was always going to be difficult for her 0:22:50.622 --> 0:22:52.862 to do this. She didn't have much in the way 0:22:52.902 --> 0:22:57.782 of her own savings. She has told friends and she 0:22:57.822 --> 0:23:01.542 has written down that she never believed that John would 0:23:01.622 --> 0:23:06.022 allow her to take this house. I know from other 0:23:06.062 --> 0:23:09.862 people who spoke to John at the time of the 0:23:09.902 --> 0:23:13.702 separation between John and Broman that John told these people, 0:23:13.742 --> 0:23:17.622 including a guy called Ian Lewis or Scruffy the concrete 0:23:17.942 --> 0:23:20.022 He worked with johnn He employed John on a number 0:23:20.022 --> 0:23:22.262 of jobs, and he told me that John had said 0:23:22.302 --> 0:23:25.702 to Scruffy, I'm not going to lose another house. Scruffy. 0:23:26.142 --> 0:23:30.462 I've had two previous marriages and I've lost out both times, 0:23:30.982 --> 0:23:32.782 and I'm not going to lose this house. I'm not 0:23:32.822 --> 0:23:35.182 going to lose this one. He loved Lennox Head. He 0:23:35.222 --> 0:23:40.262 was a very committed surfer. Bromwin was prepared to make 0:23:40.302 --> 0:23:43.702 the break, and she understood her rights, particularly after she'd 0:23:43.742 --> 0:23:47.862 been to Sea lawyers in Ballina and in nearby Lisbon. 0:23:48.502 --> 0:23:53.662 She knew that as the care for their children, and 0:23:53.782 --> 0:23:57.502 Crystal was calling John dad, even though he was at 0:23:57.582 --> 0:24:01.422 legally her stepfather, but John had wanted to have a 0:24:01.742 --> 0:24:05.822 relationship with Crystal whereby she called him dad. Broman understood 0:24:06.102 --> 0:24:11.222 that when the property settlement occurred, she would have certain 0:24:11.302 --> 0:24:14.222 rights to the assets of the marriage, as she should, 0:24:14.902 --> 0:24:19.102 remembering that Broman had Crystal before she met John, then 0:24:19.102 --> 0:24:24.342 she had Lauren with John, and of course she effectively 0:24:25.302 --> 0:24:28.302 moved Jody into the family home. So Bromin had been 0:24:28.342 --> 0:24:31.942 a carer for those three girls. So she moved into 0:24:31.982 --> 0:24:36.742 a rented flat in Lennox Head. It was not far 0:24:36.822 --> 0:24:40.342 away from the family home, and you have to wonder 0:24:40.902 --> 0:24:45.182 why did she have to move out? Usually in situations 0:24:45.382 --> 0:24:48.182 where you know there's a family home and a marriage 0:24:48.182 --> 0:24:50.862 breakdown and the mother is clearly going to be looking 0:24:50.942 --> 0:24:54.462 after the children. Bearing in mind, Jody had moved to 0:24:54.502 --> 0:24:56.702 Sydney and was working in a hair salon. By then 0:24:56.782 --> 0:25:00.942 she was eighteen years old. The mother would usually stay 0:25:00.982 --> 0:25:04.542 in the family home as the primary carer. It's almost 0:25:04.582 --> 0:25:08.022 always the case that the father who unless he is 0:25:08.062 --> 0:25:10.782 going to be the care of the children, would move about. 0:25:11.222 --> 0:25:14.542 That didn't happen in this case, and it's unclear to 0:25:14.582 --> 0:25:18.662 me why. Andy, who is Broman's brother, is adamant that 0:25:18.982 --> 0:25:21.622 Bromlin was effectively forced out when she said she wanted 0:25:21.622 --> 0:25:24.862 to separate. His view is that she was effectively kicked out, 0:25:25.062 --> 0:25:27.982 and certainly the locks were changed soon afterwards by John. 0:25:28.542 --> 0:25:32.702 So while Bromin was living in rented accommodation, no doubt 0:25:32.782 --> 0:25:36.502 she was getting good legal advice weighing her options. She 0:25:36.582 --> 0:25:39.342 was working part time in a little takeaway place down 0:25:39.502 --> 0:25:42.062 near the beach front, trying to stay out of John's way. 0:25:42.622 --> 0:25:45.542 He had moved to Sydney after some weeks and was 0:25:45.582 --> 0:25:49.062 working on the house building it in the Shire, and 0:25:49.622 --> 0:25:53.942 that's when Bromin decided that rather than paying all this 0:25:54.062 --> 0:25:57.982 money in rent, she should move back into the family 0:25:57.982 --> 0:26:00.342 home because it was vacant and. 0:26:00.222 --> 0:26:01.142 It's hers as well. 0:26:01.382 --> 0:26:04.262 And it's hers yeah, so nobody was living in it. 0:26:04.302 --> 0:26:08.102 She had been paying rent downtown. She could not afford 0:26:08.142 --> 0:26:12.062 to pay that rent, so we'll save that money and 0:26:12.142 --> 0:26:15.662 move back in, and her brother was urging her to 0:26:15.702 --> 0:26:18.902 do that. She got legal advice from her solicitor who 0:26:18.902 --> 0:26:21.422 said that would be fine. You're entitled to it, and 0:26:21.462 --> 0:26:24.262 so she did. On a Friday evening, a trailer came 0:26:24.382 --> 0:26:26.622 up and she brought many of her belongings from the 0:26:26.622 --> 0:26:30.502 townhouse back to her own house. She hadn't finished the 0:26:30.542 --> 0:26:33.182 move and I think that's really interesting too. She had 0:26:33.222 --> 0:26:36.542 a plan, a plan to empty the townhouse, to give 0:26:36.542 --> 0:26:40.182 it back to little land Lady Shirley Taylor, and have 0:26:40.302 --> 0:26:43.102 all of her things back in the family house, settle 0:26:43.102 --> 0:26:45.262 her children and get them off to school on the Monday. 0:26:45.902 --> 0:26:50.622 When she disappeared, the townhouse still had many boxes of 0:26:51.062 --> 0:26:55.502 her contents, of her belongings, her personal goods. They were 0:26:55.542 --> 0:26:58.622 just left there. She didn't go back for those after 0:26:58.702 --> 0:27:02.582 she disappeared. She didn't ever go back to her own house. 0:27:02.742 --> 0:27:07.022