1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,182 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,702 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,742 --> 00:00:28,862 Speaker 1: recorded on It's Sunday, the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety 4 00:00:28,862 --> 00:00:31,582 Speaker 1: three in Lennox Head in New South Wales, a laid 5 00:00:31,582 --> 00:00:34,462 Speaker 1: back coastal town full of families and people in search 6 00:00:34,502 --> 00:00:37,302 Speaker 1: of the quiet life away from the hustle and bustle. 7 00:00:38,502 --> 00:00:40,982 Speaker 1: Ron Win Winfield is getting her daughter's ten year old 8 00:00:40,982 --> 00:00:44,022 Speaker 1: Crystal and five year old Lauren ready for bed. It's 9 00:00:44,022 --> 00:00:46,942 Speaker 1: been a big weekend. Her Rex's husband has been in 10 00:00:46,982 --> 00:00:49,622 Speaker 1: Sydney on a construction job, so she has moved her 11 00:00:49,622 --> 00:00:52,662 Speaker 1: girls back into the family home. They've been staying in 12 00:00:52,662 --> 00:00:54,942 Speaker 1: a townhouse on the road out of town for seven 13 00:00:55,022 --> 00:00:58,742 Speaker 1: weeks since she filed for divorce, but as winter approaches, 14 00:00:59,142 --> 00:01:02,902 Speaker 1: it's been getting cold within their new walls. So here 15 00:01:02,942 --> 00:01:07,142 Speaker 1: she is taking a stand and reclaiming the Sandstone Crescent 16 00:01:07,182 --> 00:01:11,622 Speaker 1: property she once shared with John while he's away on business. Tonight, 17 00:01:12,262 --> 00:01:14,822 Speaker 1: John is on his way back to Lennox. His flight 18 00:01:14,902 --> 00:01:19,422 Speaker 1: touches down at six thirty pm. Bronwin has his belongings packed. 19 00:01:19,862 --> 00:01:23,102 Speaker 1: She has every intention of staying in their marital home 20 00:01:23,502 --> 00:01:26,022 Speaker 1: of fighting for the home she's raised her girls in. 21 00:01:27,222 --> 00:01:31,782 Speaker 1: But after John returns home, it's Bronwyn who leaves alone. 22 00:01:32,902 --> 00:01:36,622 Speaker 1: According to him, she needed a break and left into 23 00:01:36,662 --> 00:01:40,622 Speaker 1: an unknown person's car that very same night. That Sunday 24 00:01:41,462 --> 00:01:43,582 Speaker 1: is the last time the thirty one year old mother 25 00:01:43,622 --> 00:01:55,342 Speaker 1: of two is ever seen again. I'm Jemma Bath and 26 00:01:55,422 --> 00:01:59,302 Speaker 1: this is True Crime Conversations a Mama mea podcast exploring 27 00:01:59,302 --> 00:02:02,542 Speaker 1: the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people 28 00:02:02,582 --> 00:02:06,302 Speaker 1: who know the most about them. The disappearance of Bronwyn 29 00:02:06,342 --> 00:02:09,742 Speaker 1: Winfield was barely covered by the media in nineteen ninety three. 30 00:02:10,702 --> 00:02:13,742 Speaker 1: It took eleven days for John to actually report her 31 00:02:13,782 --> 00:02:17,222 Speaker 1: as missing after that Sunday night. Very little was done 32 00:02:17,222 --> 00:02:19,942 Speaker 1: in the way of a police investigation in those early days. 33 00:02:20,302 --> 00:02:22,742 Speaker 1: In fact, it would be years until her case was 34 00:02:22,782 --> 00:02:27,582 Speaker 1: actually taken seriously. A coronial inquest nearly a decade later 35 00:02:28,102 --> 00:02:32,022 Speaker 1: determined that Bronwin had likely been murdered. It went as 36 00:02:32,062 --> 00:02:35,662 Speaker 1: far as recommending John be prosecuted, but that never happened. 37 00:02:36,502 --> 00:02:40,382 Speaker 1: Bronwin's case is the focus of Headley Thomas's new podcast investigation. 38 00:02:41,222 --> 00:02:44,822 Speaker 1: You'll remember him from The Teacher's Pet. The investigation into 39 00:02:44,902 --> 00:02:48,382 Speaker 1: missing mother of two Lynette Simms, formerly known as Lynett 40 00:02:48,422 --> 00:02:52,142 Speaker 1: Dawson in Sydney. She vanished from her Bayview home in 41 00:02:52,262 --> 00:02:55,942 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, and her former husband, Chris Dawson, was 42 00:02:55,982 --> 00:02:59,822 Speaker 1: convicted of murder in twenty twenty two after Headley went 43 00:02:59,902 --> 00:03:03,742 Speaker 1: digging and brought the case back into the light. Now 44 00:03:04,222 --> 00:03:07,462 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, he's hopeful of getting some answers 45 00:03:07,502 --> 00:03:11,582 Speaker 1: for Bromwin's family. He's speaking to her friend, her family, 46 00:03:12,022 --> 00:03:15,222 Speaker 1: the police, and the last people who saw Bromwin before 47 00:03:15,262 --> 00:03:19,222 Speaker 1: she disappeared. He's currently in the midst of his investigation, 48 00:03:19,902 --> 00:03:22,102 Speaker 1: but Hedley joins us now to tell us about what 49 00:03:22,142 --> 00:03:33,942 Speaker 1: he's uncovered so far. So, you've spoken to lots of 50 00:03:33,982 --> 00:03:37,102 Speaker 1: people who know Bronwin Winfield by now, how would you 51 00:03:37,142 --> 00:03:38,582 Speaker 1: describe her? Who was she? 52 00:03:39,582 --> 00:03:43,342 Speaker 2: Bromwin was a young woman who was seeking from a 53 00:03:43,422 --> 00:03:47,102 Speaker 2: very early age the stability of family. She had grown 54 00:03:47,222 --> 00:03:51,982 Speaker 2: up in a family that became very dislocated. Her own 55 00:03:52,022 --> 00:03:56,622 Speaker 2: mother had serious mental health challenges when Bromwin was very 56 00:03:56,702 --> 00:04:01,102 Speaker 2: very young. She had postatal depression and she also had 57 00:04:01,182 --> 00:04:05,742 Speaker 2: what was described at the time as a schizo effective disorder. 58 00:04:06,502 --> 00:04:11,582 Speaker 2: It wasn't well understood in the nineteen sixties, and Barbara, 59 00:04:11,862 --> 00:04:16,822 Speaker 2: who is Bromlin's mum, ended up really just trying to 60 00:04:16,822 --> 00:04:20,702 Speaker 2: find her own way, no longer being the mother of 61 00:04:21,022 --> 00:04:26,062 Speaker 2: Bromwin and Andrew, so she went overseas and stayed overseas 62 00:04:26,102 --> 00:04:29,502 Speaker 2: with her own mother for some years while Bromlin was 63 00:04:29,542 --> 00:04:34,702 Speaker 2: being raised with her brother by their father and their 64 00:04:34,742 --> 00:04:39,702 Speaker 2: father's second wife, Jennifer. As a result, when Barbara came 65 00:04:39,782 --> 00:04:44,982 Speaker 2: back into their lives, Bromin was already about eleven years old, 66 00:04:45,342 --> 00:04:50,942 Speaker 2: Andy Andrew was nine, and Andy didn't know that he 67 00:04:51,262 --> 00:04:54,942 Speaker 2: had a biological mother who had been away all those years. 68 00:04:55,342 --> 00:05:00,342 Speaker 2: It's unclear whether Bromwin knew, but the recollection of other 69 00:05:00,382 --> 00:05:04,102 Speaker 2: people is that Bromwin did know in any event, when 70 00:05:04,182 --> 00:05:08,222 Speaker 2: Barbara returned from overseas and really wanted to play a 71 00:05:08,262 --> 00:05:12,222 Speaker 2: significant and important role in the lives of her children, 72 00:05:12,742 --> 00:05:16,222 Speaker 2: you know, she had been replaced by another woman who 73 00:05:16,262 --> 00:05:20,862 Speaker 2: had effectively been their mother, and we must have been 74 00:05:21,582 --> 00:05:28,422 Speaker 2: incredibly destabilizing for both children, and on the one hand, 75 00:05:28,822 --> 00:05:32,982 Speaker 2: natural surprise at realizing that they had not known of 76 00:05:32,982 --> 00:05:35,622 Speaker 2: their own mother for so long and then wanting to 77 00:05:36,022 --> 00:05:40,222 Speaker 2: understand how that happens, and their natural mother becoming part 78 00:05:40,262 --> 00:05:44,262 Speaker 2: of their lives, and their stepmother, who they had called mother, 79 00:05:44,782 --> 00:05:51,222 Speaker 2: perhaps feeling herself somewhat replaced. So I think these must 80 00:05:51,262 --> 00:05:57,942 Speaker 2: have contributed to Bromin's desires when she reached adulthood to 81 00:05:58,102 --> 00:06:03,342 Speaker 2: forego career, to forego travel, to really just focus on 82 00:06:03,742 --> 00:06:07,622 Speaker 2: trying to have the perfect family. She just wanted the 83 00:06:07,662 --> 00:06:12,662 Speaker 2: white picket fence, the perfect little home, happy marriage, and 84 00:06:12,862 --> 00:06:17,662 Speaker 2: healthy children. And she loved children. She adored kids. She 85 00:06:17,862 --> 00:06:22,462 Speaker 2: was by all accounts, a wonderful young mum and certainly 86 00:06:22,542 --> 00:06:26,782 Speaker 2: showed no evidence of having any mental health challenges, apart 87 00:06:26,982 --> 00:06:30,742 Speaker 2: from it has to be said she did have some 88 00:06:30,902 --> 00:06:35,822 Speaker 2: depression postnatal depression after the birth of her own first child. 89 00:06:37,022 --> 00:06:39,262 Speaker 1: That really sets the scene of her being a real 90 00:06:39,422 --> 00:06:42,622 Speaker 1: family woman mother. And she did have a bit of 91 00:06:42,662 --> 00:06:45,942 Speaker 1: an unusual setup there because she had two children. But 92 00:06:45,982 --> 00:06:49,862 Speaker 1: then she also brought in John, her husband's third daughter. 93 00:06:49,942 --> 00:06:52,742 Speaker 1: Didn't she can you help us understand the family unit? 94 00:06:52,942 --> 00:06:59,542 Speaker 2: In the nineties, so Bromwin had her first child, Crystal, 95 00:07:00,222 --> 00:07:06,342 Speaker 2: with her long term boyfriend, guy called Mark, and she 96 00:07:07,022 --> 00:07:10,862 Speaker 2: didn't marry Mark. She married a guy called Gary Bear 97 00:07:11,222 --> 00:07:16,462 Speaker 2: and that marriage was short lived. Then when she met John. 98 00:07:17,102 --> 00:07:20,742 Speaker 2: She had a child with John, Lauren, who was Bromin's 99 00:07:20,742 --> 00:07:25,342 Speaker 2: second child, but John also had a child from his 100 00:07:25,542 --> 00:07:30,702 Speaker 2: first marriage. John had been married twice before he met Bromin, 101 00:07:31,422 --> 00:07:37,662 Speaker 2: and he had Jody from his first wife, and John 102 00:07:37,782 --> 00:07:41,782 Speaker 2: and John's parents had been looking after Jody. Jody didn't 103 00:07:41,782 --> 00:07:45,822 Speaker 2: grow up with her own natural mother, and that was 104 00:07:45,862 --> 00:07:49,902 Speaker 2: a source of great regret for that woman, and we 105 00:07:50,022 --> 00:07:53,582 Speaker 2: will deal with that in the podcast. But Bromlin was 106 00:07:53,622 --> 00:07:56,662 Speaker 2: of the view when she and John got together that 107 00:07:56,782 --> 00:07:59,702 Speaker 2: Jody should become part of their family unit, that she 108 00:07:59,742 --> 00:08:02,662 Speaker 2: should no longer be living with her grandparents and being 109 00:08:02,742 --> 00:08:06,182 Speaker 2: raised with them. So she brought Jody into the family 110 00:08:06,222 --> 00:08:08,702 Speaker 2: home that she and John were trying to create in 111 00:08:08,982 --> 00:08:11,302 Speaker 2: the Shire in south of Sydney. 112 00:08:11,942 --> 00:08:14,222 Speaker 1: Tell me about the first time you heard about Bromwyn 113 00:08:14,262 --> 00:08:14,982 Speaker 1: and her story. 114 00:08:16,022 --> 00:08:20,942 Speaker 2: I was sitting in the living room of a former 115 00:08:20,982 --> 00:08:26,342 Speaker 2: deputy state corner called Karl Milavanovitch, and Karl was someone 116 00:08:26,422 --> 00:08:29,062 Speaker 2: I was meeting for the first time a week before 117 00:08:29,182 --> 00:08:34,542 Speaker 2: Christmas twenty seventeen, and I had just been doing some 118 00:08:35,062 --> 00:08:41,262 Speaker 2: really exhausting, emotionally but also very affecting interviews with people 119 00:08:41,302 --> 00:08:44,862 Speaker 2: who knew Lynn. Lynn Dawson, who we now refer to 120 00:08:44,862 --> 00:08:49,622 Speaker 2: as LYNL. Sims. And we were rushing around because I 121 00:08:49,662 --> 00:08:52,982 Speaker 2: was doing these interviews for The Teacher's Pet in December 122 00:08:53,022 --> 00:08:56,462 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. We were still six months out from releasing 123 00:08:56,622 --> 00:09:00,302 Speaker 2: the first episode of that series, but I was trying 124 00:09:00,342 --> 00:09:03,022 Speaker 2: to do as many interviews as possible in a shorter 125 00:09:03,142 --> 00:09:06,022 Speaker 2: time as possible, And so we drove out there and 126 00:09:06,102 --> 00:09:09,422 Speaker 2: Carl welcomed us very warmly, and he was happy to 127 00:09:09,462 --> 00:09:12,382 Speaker 2: talk to us about the that he had run back 128 00:09:12,422 --> 00:09:18,262 Speaker 2: in two thousand and three into Lynette's presumed death, and 129 00:09:18,542 --> 00:09:22,142 Speaker 2: as a result of that inquest, Carl recommended that Chris 130 00:09:22,262 --> 00:09:26,982 Speaker 2: Awso be prosecuted for murder. He also made a ruling 131 00:09:27,222 --> 00:09:31,062 Speaker 2: that Lynnette was dead and had been dead since nineteen 132 00:09:31,062 --> 00:09:35,262 Speaker 2: eighty two, when she supposedly, according to Chris, went off 133 00:09:35,302 --> 00:09:37,422 Speaker 2: to start a new life or do whatever Chris said 134 00:09:37,462 --> 00:09:40,302 Speaker 2: it she was doing. He was peddling all sorts of 135 00:09:40,382 --> 00:09:44,142 Speaker 2: lies at that time. And Carl, in the course of 136 00:09:44,222 --> 00:09:48,982 Speaker 2: talking about Lynnette, he talked to me about his concerns 137 00:09:49,022 --> 00:09:53,902 Speaker 2: about a number of other missing women cases. And this 138 00:09:53,982 --> 00:09:57,542 Speaker 2: was in the context of Carl explaining that the police 139 00:09:57,582 --> 00:10:03,622 Speaker 2: investigation in Lynn's case was so poor. She was treated 140 00:10:03,982 --> 00:10:08,142 Speaker 2: just quite appallingly as a mother who didn't care about 141 00:10:08,142 --> 00:10:11,062 Speaker 2: her children, who didn't care about her home, her friend, family, 142 00:10:11,142 --> 00:10:14,902 Speaker 2: a job, and just took off run away mum. And 143 00:10:16,022 --> 00:10:20,262 Speaker 2: it was stupid. It was a reckless response by police, 144 00:10:20,902 --> 00:10:25,022 Speaker 2: possibly even corrupt at that time. But Karl made the 145 00:10:25,062 --> 00:10:30,582 Speaker 2: point that it wasn't that case alone that concerned him. 146 00:10:30,662 --> 00:10:34,822 Speaker 2: He had dealt with other missing mother, missing women cases 147 00:10:34,862 --> 00:10:39,022 Speaker 2: where the police response had been very, very shabby. And 148 00:10:39,262 --> 00:10:44,382 Speaker 2: he mentioned this case that he had done in lenox Head, 149 00:10:44,542 --> 00:10:48,382 Speaker 2: his mother from Sandstone Crescent, lenox Head, and he said 150 00:10:48,382 --> 00:10:51,702 Speaker 2: her name bronwin Winfield. He gave me a little summary 151 00:10:51,742 --> 00:10:54,062 Speaker 2: of it, and you know, I just made a mental 152 00:10:54,102 --> 00:10:57,342 Speaker 2: note then, and I think I googled it soon afterwards 153 00:10:57,342 --> 00:11:00,062 Speaker 2: and realized it was very little on the public record 154 00:11:00,102 --> 00:11:03,062 Speaker 2: about her. I was intrigued. I opened a folder on 155 00:11:03,142 --> 00:11:07,142 Speaker 2: my laptop wanting to revisit this case because I had 156 00:11:07,142 --> 00:11:09,662 Speaker 2: so much respect for Carl and his judgment. I thought 157 00:11:09,702 --> 00:11:12,342 Speaker 2: there must be so much much more to this. And 158 00:11:12,942 --> 00:11:16,142 Speaker 2: I couldn't do much at that time because I was 159 00:11:16,142 --> 00:11:20,942 Speaker 2: so busy trying to do more interviews and investigate leads 160 00:11:20,942 --> 00:11:23,782 Speaker 2: and so on for the Teacher's Pet. But as the 161 00:11:23,822 --> 00:11:28,902 Speaker 2: episodes from the Teacher's Pet began coming out, people who 162 00:11:28,982 --> 00:11:35,022 Speaker 2: were following Lynn's story and all the evidence of Crisp 163 00:11:35,582 --> 00:11:39,982 Speaker 2: having groom schoolgirls and having then murdered his wife in 164 00:11:40,062 --> 00:11:43,822 Speaker 2: cold blood. A number of people who knew Bronwin contacted 165 00:11:43,822 --> 00:11:47,062 Speaker 2: me out of the blue, just emailing me and saying, 166 00:11:47,782 --> 00:11:50,102 Speaker 2: you know, this is one that you may have time 167 00:11:50,142 --> 00:11:54,222 Speaker 2: to investigate one day as well. This story was very concerning. 168 00:11:54,382 --> 00:11:58,182 Speaker 2: This case was very concerning, and one of those people 169 00:11:58,262 --> 00:12:02,702 Speaker 2: was Matt Fordham, who was the senior police officer with 170 00:12:02,822 --> 00:12:06,982 Speaker 2: the legal degree who handled the inquest when Karl ran 171 00:12:07,022 --> 00:12:10,902 Speaker 2: the inquest in two thousand and two. So you know 172 00:12:10,942 --> 00:12:13,702 Speaker 2: that's the history of this. A year before Karl had 173 00:12:13,742 --> 00:12:17,982 Speaker 2: run Lin's in quest, had done Bromlin's and it was 174 00:12:18,062 --> 00:12:22,302 Speaker 2: one of a number of cases that concerned him because 175 00:12:22,902 --> 00:12:27,822 Speaker 2: there was no rational explanation for the disappearance of both 176 00:12:27,862 --> 00:12:30,662 Speaker 2: these women, these dedicated mothers. 177 00:12:31,942 --> 00:12:35,142 Speaker 1: All these years later, you've been able to actually dedicate 178 00:12:35,262 --> 00:12:40,822 Speaker 1: time to this case, to Bronwin's story. I think, knowing 179 00:12:40,862 --> 00:12:43,902 Speaker 1: so much about Linn's story and the Teacher's Pet, it 180 00:12:44,022 --> 00:12:47,462 Speaker 1: is very eerie how similar these cases are. Have you 181 00:12:47,582 --> 00:12:49,582 Speaker 1: found that while investigating them? 182 00:12:50,262 --> 00:12:55,462 Speaker 2: Yeah? I really have, And it's almost like parts of 183 00:12:55,502 --> 00:13:00,182 Speaker 2: them are a mirror image. One key difference is that 184 00:13:00,782 --> 00:13:05,902 Speaker 2: Bromlin had separated from her husband John. She wanted to 185 00:13:05,982 --> 00:13:10,542 Speaker 2: go her own way. She could no longer tolerate aspects 186 00:13:10,582 --> 00:13:14,382 Speaker 2: of his behavior. She felt like she was living almost 187 00:13:14,382 --> 00:13:17,422 Speaker 2: in a prison. The things that she would describe, which 188 00:13:17,462 --> 00:13:21,902 Speaker 2: we now know as very extreme coercive control, are set 189 00:13:21,942 --> 00:13:27,262 Speaker 2: out in her own writings. She was in longhand penning 190 00:13:27,782 --> 00:13:33,022 Speaker 2: so many points and recollections and aspects of her relationship, 191 00:13:33,062 --> 00:13:36,102 Speaker 2: a failing relationship with her husband that when we go 192 00:13:36,222 --> 00:13:39,302 Speaker 2: back now and read those and think about those, you 193 00:13:39,342 --> 00:13:42,782 Speaker 2: know it is a very powerful demonstration of a marriage 194 00:13:42,822 --> 00:13:46,982 Speaker 2: that is doomed because of the possessiveness and control of 195 00:13:47,342 --> 00:13:50,782 Speaker 2: one partner. That's how it's represented. Of course, there's always 196 00:13:50,822 --> 00:13:53,782 Speaker 2: two sides of the story, but we've not heard John's. 197 00:13:53,782 --> 00:13:57,742 Speaker 2: He's preferred to keep that to himself. But the similarities 198 00:13:57,822 --> 00:14:01,102 Speaker 2: in other ways are very clear. Let's think about the 199 00:14:01,142 --> 00:14:06,862 Speaker 2: fundamental similarities. The most obvious ones a young mother with 200 00:14:07,542 --> 00:14:13,902 Speaker 2: no addictions, with no other potential catastrophe in her life, 201 00:14:14,502 --> 00:14:17,102 Speaker 2: The sorts of things that could cause a young mother 202 00:14:17,222 --> 00:14:21,262 Speaker 2: to just lose her bearings suddenly disappears on the eve 203 00:14:21,302 --> 00:14:24,942 Speaker 2: of her going to see her lawyer about property settlement 204 00:14:25,022 --> 00:14:28,142 Speaker 2: matters relating to the fact that she separated from her 205 00:14:28,182 --> 00:14:31,182 Speaker 2: husband and she wants to get a divorce as soon 206 00:14:31,262 --> 00:14:34,622 Speaker 2: as lawfully possible, so she's got an appointment on a 207 00:14:34,662 --> 00:14:38,102 Speaker 2: Monday morning to see her lawyer. She's already had several 208 00:14:38,142 --> 00:14:42,142 Speaker 2: appointments with lawyers about the marriage that she wants to end, 209 00:14:43,182 --> 00:14:47,702 Speaker 2: and on a Sunday evening, the night before she sees 210 00:14:47,742 --> 00:14:51,062 Speaker 2: her husband for the first time in several weeks, he 211 00:14:51,142 --> 00:14:53,942 Speaker 2: comes up to the family home from Sydney, where he's 212 00:14:53,982 --> 00:14:57,742 Speaker 2: been working building a house. He goes to the house 213 00:14:57,782 --> 00:15:00,702 Speaker 2: that Bromwin has been living in with her children, the 214 00:15:00,782 --> 00:15:04,742 Speaker 2: house that John himself literally built with his bare hands, 215 00:15:05,862 --> 00:15:09,062 Speaker 2: and he agrees that they have an altercation that evening, 216 00:15:09,662 --> 00:15:13,342 Speaker 2: and he's the last person to ever see her, and 217 00:15:13,422 --> 00:15:17,102 Speaker 2: she doesn't touch her bank account. Ever, she doesn't have 218 00:15:17,182 --> 00:15:22,622 Speaker 2: any further contact with anybody. She certainly doesn't catch up 219 00:15:22,942 --> 00:15:26,182 Speaker 2: with any of the milestones or significant events in her 220 00:15:26,262 --> 00:15:29,102 Speaker 2: children's lives, their age ten and five at that time. 221 00:15:29,582 --> 00:15:32,742 Speaker 2: She doesn't turn up for work, doesn't reach out to 222 00:15:32,862 --> 00:15:38,662 Speaker 2: her mother, her brother, her other loved ones, and she's 223 00:15:38,742 --> 00:15:43,582 Speaker 2: just again written off as the mum who decided to 224 00:15:43,622 --> 00:15:48,302 Speaker 2: take off, leaving behind her children, not to mention leaving 225 00:15:48,342 --> 00:15:52,302 Speaker 2: behind the means by which she could support herself equity 226 00:15:52,502 --> 00:15:54,582 Speaker 2: in a house that was going to be sold, she 227 00:15:54,662 --> 00:15:58,822 Speaker 2: would have been entitled to perhaps half, maybe even more 228 00:15:58,862 --> 00:16:03,222 Speaker 2: because of her care for the children of this house. 229 00:16:03,262 --> 00:16:06,062 Speaker 2: It was worth a quarter of a million dollars in 230 00:16:06,182 --> 00:16:11,422 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three. And I think that such a proposition 231 00:16:11,902 --> 00:16:14,382 Speaker 2: that a woman would just up and leave all of 232 00:16:14,422 --> 00:16:17,862 Speaker 2: that without warning, without anyone knowing of any such plan 233 00:16:17,942 --> 00:16:22,742 Speaker 2: to do so, is just so ridiculous. Anyone who thinks 234 00:16:23,102 --> 00:16:25,742 Speaker 2: that it should be taken seriously deserves to be checked 235 00:16:25,782 --> 00:16:28,502 Speaker 2: into an embarrassment clinic. I mean, it's just so stupid. 236 00:16:29,262 --> 00:16:32,982 Speaker 2: And yet that was the theory that the police adopted, 237 00:16:32,982 --> 00:16:38,902 Speaker 2: and they made some absolutely appalling errors early on when 238 00:16:38,942 --> 00:16:42,622 Speaker 2: they were being asked to investigatein as a missing person, 239 00:16:43,462 --> 00:16:47,662 Speaker 2: some errors that you could not fathom would be capable 240 00:16:47,822 --> 00:16:51,022 Speaker 2: of detectives with some seniority, And yet they did, and 241 00:16:51,062 --> 00:16:53,542 Speaker 2: they persuaded themselves that she'd just gone off. 242 00:16:53,902 --> 00:16:56,462 Speaker 1: Let's delve into some of those details. I want to 243 00:16:56,502 --> 00:17:00,142 Speaker 1: start with the marriage because Lennox is a small coastal town. 244 00:17:00,782 --> 00:17:04,542 Speaker 1: People talk, and by all accounts, it seems that Bronwin 245 00:17:04,702 --> 00:17:07,662 Speaker 1: was quite open with a lot of people about her 246 00:17:07,822 --> 00:17:10,462 Speaker 1: unhappiness in her marriage and what was going on and 247 00:17:10,662 --> 00:17:13,942 Speaker 1: sharing details. You mentioned a bit of coercive control, but 248 00:17:13,982 --> 00:17:16,782 Speaker 1: what else was happening in that marriage. 249 00:17:17,022 --> 00:17:20,902 Speaker 2: People who visited Bromwin at the house in Sandstone Crescent 250 00:17:21,742 --> 00:17:27,142 Speaker 2: were aware that she walked around as if on eggshells 251 00:17:27,262 --> 00:17:30,702 Speaker 2: while they were there, and that was because, in their opinion, 252 00:17:31,462 --> 00:17:35,902 Speaker 2: John didn't really want visitors at the house. Ever, He 253 00:17:35,942 --> 00:17:39,822 Speaker 2: didn't like seeing other people in his house, and he 254 00:17:39,942 --> 00:17:46,582 Speaker 2: was incredibly particular about any mess, so literally crumbs that 255 00:17:46,662 --> 00:17:50,622 Speaker 2: were spilled on the floor would have the potential of 256 00:17:50,702 --> 00:17:54,102 Speaker 2: setting him off. According to some of these people, Bromwin 257 00:17:54,262 --> 00:17:58,262 Speaker 2: used to cover the taps at the sink with a 258 00:17:58,342 --> 00:18:03,702 Speaker 2: tee tar when she was peeling potatoes so that the 259 00:18:03,742 --> 00:18:07,302 Speaker 2: starch and water and so on from the peeled potatoes 260 00:18:07,582 --> 00:18:11,822 Speaker 2: wouldn't actually jump onto the taps and potentially show up 261 00:18:11,862 --> 00:18:17,302 Speaker 2: as a little blemish. Now, that sounds like a personality 262 00:18:17,342 --> 00:18:20,302 Speaker 2: tray or disorder that you know lots of people have. 263 00:18:20,422 --> 00:18:24,222 Speaker 2: It doesn't make you a violent person. It doesn't make 264 00:18:24,262 --> 00:18:28,022 Speaker 2: you some unlikely or possibly capable of murdering your wife 265 00:18:28,102 --> 00:18:31,862 Speaker 2: and concealing for body for thirty one years. However, it 266 00:18:31,982 --> 00:18:35,542 Speaker 2: did produce a huge amount of tension in the relationship. 267 00:18:35,542 --> 00:18:39,902 Speaker 2: It meant that Bromwin couldn't actually have people over without 268 00:18:40,462 --> 00:18:44,902 Speaker 2: being very stressed. Her friend Deb Hall, who lived next door, 269 00:18:45,662 --> 00:18:49,182 Speaker 2: said that Bromwin would have friends who she would ask 270 00:18:49,262 --> 00:18:53,222 Speaker 2: Deb to host at her house. Dev didn't actually have 271 00:18:53,302 --> 00:18:55,382 Speaker 2: the same bonds with these people, and Deb was only 272 00:18:55,382 --> 00:18:58,342 Speaker 2: too happy to help, but Bromwin was terrified that she'd 273 00:18:58,422 --> 00:19:03,382 Speaker 2: upset John that could trigger him if he saw these friends. 274 00:19:03,822 --> 00:19:07,702 Speaker 2: Another good friend of Bromwin's was a woman called Bridgeta 275 00:19:08,142 --> 00:19:12,902 Speaker 2: in the Shire, and she described Vibed in the early 276 00:19:12,982 --> 00:19:16,062 Speaker 2: years of the relationship. When Bromin first started seeing John. 277 00:19:16,662 --> 00:19:19,702 Speaker 2: She described the sort of the light and the happiness 278 00:19:19,742 --> 00:19:24,102 Speaker 2: that she used to see in Bromen just diminishing and 279 00:19:24,142 --> 00:19:28,862 Speaker 2: being replaced by a sense of unease in Bromman and 280 00:19:29,142 --> 00:19:34,022 Speaker 2: Bromwin once told Brigida that she was reluctant to go 281 00:19:34,102 --> 00:19:37,142 Speaker 2: out driving and visiting Bridgeta, even though they had been 282 00:19:37,142 --> 00:19:40,942 Speaker 2: friends for so many years since high school, because John 283 00:19:40,982 --> 00:19:45,622 Speaker 2: would check how much fuel she'd used and try to 284 00:19:45,662 --> 00:19:49,582 Speaker 2: work out where she had gone. John's second wife, who 285 00:19:49,662 --> 00:19:52,662 Speaker 2: we referred to as d in the podcast, She told 286 00:19:52,702 --> 00:19:57,862 Speaker 2: me that John was not violent towards her, but their 287 00:19:57,862 --> 00:20:01,862 Speaker 2: marriage lasted just eighteen months, and she told me that 288 00:20:01,982 --> 00:20:06,782 Speaker 2: was because he was just extraordinarily possessive. They'd be walking 289 00:20:06,822 --> 00:20:10,222 Speaker 2: down the street together and she would be feeling the 290 00:20:10,222 --> 00:20:13,462 Speaker 2: same unshine and thinking how nice is this. They're probably 291 00:20:13,502 --> 00:20:17,622 Speaker 2: walking hand in hand, and she said that he would 292 00:20:17,702 --> 00:20:20,302 Speaker 2: then ask her why she was looking at a guy 293 00:20:20,342 --> 00:20:22,622 Speaker 2: a certain way, Why are you looking him? Why are 294 00:20:22,622 --> 00:20:24,542 Speaker 2: you staring at him? Do you like him? This kind 295 00:20:24,582 --> 00:20:29,942 Speaker 2: of obviously very jealous insecurity that would lead to disagreements 296 00:20:29,982 --> 00:20:31,902 Speaker 2: because she wasn't looking at anybody. 297 00:20:33,142 --> 00:20:35,502 Speaker 1: The early nineties was a very different time in terms 298 00:20:35,582 --> 00:20:40,302 Speaker 1: of what we thought domestic violence. Look like, we've come 299 00:20:40,342 --> 00:20:42,782 Speaker 1: a long way in the last twenty thirty years in 300 00:20:42,902 --> 00:20:45,662 Speaker 1: terms of knowing that it's not just physical, it's emotional, 301 00:20:45,662 --> 00:20:49,702 Speaker 1: it's financial, it's coercive, it's isolation. Do you think that 302 00:20:49,702 --> 00:20:53,662 Speaker 1: that contributed to everything going on that perhaps Bronwin and 303 00:20:53,742 --> 00:20:57,262 Speaker 1: her community didn't have a word for it. They didn't 304 00:20:57,382 --> 00:21:00,622 Speaker 1: understand what was going on or think it was as 305 00:21:00,662 --> 00:21:01,502 Speaker 1: bad as it was. 306 00:21:03,022 --> 00:21:07,382 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really interesting question because it's very hard 307 00:21:07,422 --> 00:21:11,342 Speaker 2: to put yourself in that place at that time. You know, 308 00:21:11,382 --> 00:21:14,022 Speaker 2: we're talking about the early nineteen nineties, and I think 309 00:21:14,062 --> 00:21:17,742 Speaker 2: we did have a lot of awareness about domestic violence. Certainly, 310 00:21:18,142 --> 00:21:22,942 Speaker 2: things like apprehended violence orders were part of the legal 311 00:21:22,982 --> 00:21:26,742 Speaker 2: system's response to concerns of women. So we should have 312 00:21:26,782 --> 00:21:30,902 Speaker 2: been becoming much better educated about these things. You know, 313 00:21:31,022 --> 00:21:35,302 Speaker 2: John emphatically denies wrongdoing, and no doubt he denies that 314 00:21:35,342 --> 00:21:38,102 Speaker 2: he ever lifted a finger against Bromlin, but she also 315 00:21:38,142 --> 00:21:42,262 Speaker 2: did confide to friends like Denise Barnard that he really 316 00:21:42,302 --> 00:21:46,582 Speaker 2: scared her. Bromman told Denise, and Denise told police, and 317 00:21:46,702 --> 00:21:50,662 Speaker 2: has told me that Bromwin said one day he had 318 00:21:50,662 --> 00:21:54,902 Speaker 2: put his hands around her throat and was acting in 319 00:21:54,942 --> 00:21:58,662 Speaker 2: a really threatening way. She was worried about choking, and 320 00:21:58,702 --> 00:22:01,382 Speaker 2: I think we know from the literature that this is 321 00:22:01,382 --> 00:22:07,022 Speaker 2: a very serious precursor to much worse events. 322 00:22:10,622 --> 00:22:14,262 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Jemma Bath. 323 00:22:14,862 --> 00:22:19,022 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Hedley Thomas about the disappearance of Bronwyn Winfield. 324 00:22:19,822 --> 00:22:23,142 Speaker 1: Up next, we find out why the DPP declined a 325 00:22:23,182 --> 00:22:27,222 Speaker 1: recommendation to charge the missing mother's ex husband with murder. 326 00:22:33,422 --> 00:22:37,782 Speaker 1: When Bronwyn decided to divorce John, she was starting to 327 00:22:37,862 --> 00:22:40,062 Speaker 1: try and create a new life for herself, wasn't she. 328 00:22:40,582 --> 00:22:45,382 Speaker 2: Yeah, In late March, Bromwin wanted to make that break 329 00:22:45,742 --> 00:22:47,822 Speaker 2: and she had very little in the way of money, 330 00:22:48,302 --> 00:22:50,582 Speaker 2: so it was always going to be difficult for her 331 00:22:50,622 --> 00:22:52,862 Speaker 2: to do this. She didn't have much in the way 332 00:22:52,902 --> 00:22:57,782 Speaker 2: of her own savings. She has told friends and she 333 00:22:57,822 --> 00:23:01,542 Speaker 2: has written down that she never believed that John would 334 00:23:01,622 --> 00:23:06,022 Speaker 2: allow her to take this house. I know from other 335 00:23:06,062 --> 00:23:09,862 Speaker 2: people who spoke to John at the time of the 336 00:23:09,902 --> 00:23:13,702 Speaker 2: separation between John and Broman that John told these people, 337 00:23:13,742 --> 00:23:17,622 Speaker 2: including a guy called Ian Lewis or Scruffy the concrete 338 00:23:17,942 --> 00:23:20,022 Speaker 2: He worked with johnn He employed John on a number 339 00:23:20,022 --> 00:23:22,262 Speaker 2: of jobs, and he told me that John had said 340 00:23:22,302 --> 00:23:25,702 Speaker 2: to Scruffy, I'm not going to lose another house. Scruffy. 341 00:23:26,142 --> 00:23:30,462 Speaker 2: I've had two previous marriages and I've lost out both times, 342 00:23:30,982 --> 00:23:32,782 Speaker 2: and I'm not going to lose this house. I'm not 343 00:23:32,822 --> 00:23:35,182 Speaker 2: going to lose this one. He loved Lennox Head. He 344 00:23:35,222 --> 00:23:40,262 Speaker 2: was a very committed surfer. Bromwin was prepared to make 345 00:23:40,302 --> 00:23:43,702 Speaker 2: the break, and she understood her rights, particularly after she'd 346 00:23:43,742 --> 00:23:47,862 Speaker 2: been to Sea lawyers in Ballina and in nearby Lisbon. 347 00:23:48,502 --> 00:23:53,662 Speaker 2: She knew that as the care for their children, and 348 00:23:53,782 --> 00:23:57,502 Speaker 2: Crystal was calling John dad, even though he was at 349 00:23:57,582 --> 00:24:01,422 Speaker 2: legally her stepfather, but John had wanted to have a 350 00:24:01,742 --> 00:24:05,822 Speaker 2: relationship with Crystal whereby she called him dad. Broman understood 351 00:24:06,102 --> 00:24:11,222 Speaker 2: that when the property settlement occurred, she would have certain 352 00:24:11,302 --> 00:24:14,222 Speaker 2: rights to the assets of the marriage, as she should, 353 00:24:14,902 --> 00:24:19,102 Speaker 2: remembering that Broman had Crystal before she met John, then 354 00:24:19,102 --> 00:24:24,342 Speaker 2: she had Lauren with John, and of course she effectively 355 00:24:25,302 --> 00:24:28,302 Speaker 2: moved Jody into the family home. So Bromin had been 356 00:24:28,342 --> 00:24:31,942 Speaker 2: a carer for those three girls. So she moved into 357 00:24:31,982 --> 00:24:36,742 Speaker 2: a rented flat in Lennox Head. It was not far 358 00:24:36,822 --> 00:24:40,342 Speaker 2: away from the family home, and you have to wonder 359 00:24:40,902 --> 00:24:45,182 Speaker 2: why did she have to move out? Usually in situations 360 00:24:45,382 --> 00:24:48,182 Speaker 2: where you know there's a family home and a marriage 361 00:24:48,182 --> 00:24:50,862 Speaker 2: breakdown and the mother is clearly going to be looking 362 00:24:50,942 --> 00:24:54,462 Speaker 2: after the children. Bearing in mind, Jody had moved to 363 00:24:54,502 --> 00:24:56,702 Speaker 2: Sydney and was working in a hair salon. By then 364 00:24:56,782 --> 00:25:00,942 Speaker 2: she was eighteen years old. The mother would usually stay 365 00:25:00,982 --> 00:25:04,542 Speaker 2: in the family home as the primary carer. It's almost 366 00:25:04,582 --> 00:25:08,022 Speaker 2: always the case that the father who unless he is 367 00:25:08,062 --> 00:25:10,782 Speaker 2: going to be the care of the children, would move about. 368 00:25:11,222 --> 00:25:14,542 Speaker 2: That didn't happen in this case, and it's unclear to 369 00:25:14,582 --> 00:25:18,662 Speaker 2: me why. Andy, who is Broman's brother, is adamant that 370 00:25:18,982 --> 00:25:21,622 Speaker 2: Bromlin was effectively forced out when she said she wanted 371 00:25:21,622 --> 00:25:24,862 Speaker 2: to separate. His view is that she was effectively kicked out, 372 00:25:25,062 --> 00:25:27,982 Speaker 2: and certainly the locks were changed soon afterwards by John. 373 00:25:28,542 --> 00:25:32,702 Speaker 2: So while Bromin was living in rented accommodation, no doubt 374 00:25:32,782 --> 00:25:36,502 Speaker 2: she was getting good legal advice weighing her options. She 375 00:25:36,582 --> 00:25:39,342 Speaker 2: was working part time in a little takeaway place down 376 00:25:39,502 --> 00:25:42,062 Speaker 2: near the beach front, trying to stay out of John's way. 377 00:25:42,622 --> 00:25:45,542 Speaker 2: He had moved to Sydney after some weeks and was 378 00:25:45,582 --> 00:25:49,062 Speaker 2: working on the house building it in the Shire, and 379 00:25:49,622 --> 00:25:53,942 Speaker 2: that's when Bromin decided that rather than paying all this 380 00:25:54,062 --> 00:25:57,982 Speaker 2: money in rent, she should move back into the family 381 00:25:57,982 --> 00:26:00,342 Speaker 2: home because it was vacant and. 382 00:26:00,222 --> 00:26:01,142 Speaker 1: It's hers as well. 383 00:26:01,382 --> 00:26:04,262 Speaker 2: And it's hers yeah, so nobody was living in it. 384 00:26:04,302 --> 00:26:08,102 Speaker 2: She had been paying rent downtown. She could not afford 385 00:26:08,142 --> 00:26:12,062 Speaker 2: to pay that rent, so we'll save that money and 386 00:26:12,142 --> 00:26:15,662 Speaker 2: move back in, and her brother was urging her to 387 00:26:15,702 --> 00:26:18,902 Speaker 2: do that. She got legal advice from her solicitor who 388 00:26:18,902 --> 00:26:21,422 Speaker 2: said that would be fine. You're entitled to it, and 389 00:26:21,462 --> 00:26:24,262 Speaker 2: so she did. On a Friday evening, a trailer came 390 00:26:24,382 --> 00:26:26,622 Speaker 2: up and she brought many of her belongings from the 391 00:26:26,622 --> 00:26:30,502 Speaker 2: townhouse back to her own house. She hadn't finished the 392 00:26:30,542 --> 00:26:33,182 Speaker 2: move and I think that's really interesting too. She had 393 00:26:33,222 --> 00:26:36,542 Speaker 2: a plan, a plan to empty the townhouse, to give 394 00:26:36,542 --> 00:26:40,182 Speaker 2: it back to little land Lady Shirley Taylor, and have 395 00:26:40,302 --> 00:26:43,102 Speaker 2: all of her things back in the family house, settle 396 00:26:43,102 --> 00:26:45,262 Speaker 2: her children and get them off to school on the Monday. 397 00:26:45,902 --> 00:26:50,622 Speaker 2: When she disappeared, the townhouse still had many boxes of 398 00:26:51,062 --> 00:26:55,502 Speaker 2: her contents, of her belongings, her personal goods. They were 399 00:26:55,542 --> 00:26:58,622 Speaker 2: just left there. She didn't go back for those after 400 00:26:58,702 --> 00:27:02,582 Speaker 2: she disappeared. She didn't ever go back to her own house. 401 00:27:02,742 --> 00:27:07,022 Speaker 2: It's just another, I think, powerful indicator that something else 402 00:27:07,102 --> 00:27:10,982 Speaker 2: happened to Bromwain that she didn't, as her husband has said, 403 00:27:11,502 --> 00:27:12,662 Speaker 2: leave of her own volition. 404 00:27:13,422 --> 00:27:16,222 Speaker 1: What does he say happened that evening when he arrived 405 00:27:16,262 --> 00:27:17,502 Speaker 1: back at Sandstone Crescent. 406 00:27:18,102 --> 00:27:22,262 Speaker 2: He says that he went from the airport at Ballina 407 00:27:22,982 --> 00:27:26,822 Speaker 2: to the police station, and at the police station on 408 00:27:26,862 --> 00:27:30,462 Speaker 2: the Sunday evening, he wanted to check whether there were 409 00:27:30,502 --> 00:27:33,742 Speaker 2: any orders that would have prevented him from approaching the house. 410 00:27:34,502 --> 00:27:38,742 Speaker 2: And we believe that's because Roman had had a conversation 411 00:27:38,902 --> 00:27:42,182 Speaker 2: with John's daughter Jody a couple of nights earlier, and 412 00:27:42,982 --> 00:27:46,462 Speaker 2: Jody has said in a police statement that Bromin said, look, 413 00:27:46,742 --> 00:27:49,422 Speaker 2: you know, your dad needs to be careful about coming 414 00:27:49,462 --> 00:27:51,982 Speaker 2: near me. I'm getting an order so that he can't 415 00:27:52,822 --> 00:27:55,902 Speaker 2: and they must have been related to John. I mean, 416 00:27:55,942 --> 00:27:58,422 Speaker 2: I'm speculating a little bit here and paraphrasing, but that 417 00:27:58,462 --> 00:28:01,062 Speaker 2: gives you the gist of it. So John certainly has 418 00:28:01,102 --> 00:28:03,502 Speaker 2: gone to the police station and they've said no, there's 419 00:28:03,542 --> 00:28:05,862 Speaker 2: no order here, and there was, and we don't know 420 00:28:06,262 --> 00:28:08,542 Speaker 2: whether it was in the process, whether it had been 421 00:28:08,542 --> 00:28:11,582 Speaker 2: held up. We're still trying to work that out. But 422 00:28:12,022 --> 00:28:15,582 Speaker 2: he went then from the police station to the home 423 00:28:15,742 --> 00:28:18,902 Speaker 2: of one of his daughter's friends and picked her up. 424 00:28:18,982 --> 00:28:21,942 Speaker 2: He wanted her to go with him to the house 425 00:28:22,382 --> 00:28:24,702 Speaker 2: when he knocked on the door. He knocked on the 426 00:28:24,742 --> 00:28:28,302 Speaker 2: door and this woman called Becky Maguire, she witnessed that 427 00:28:28,782 --> 00:28:33,942 Speaker 2: and Broman opened the front door and then John went in. 428 00:28:34,582 --> 00:28:37,982 Speaker 2: Broman had his two suitcases at the front door. Becky 429 00:28:38,062 --> 00:28:42,942 Speaker 2: Maguire then was driven home by John, and she says 430 00:28:42,942 --> 00:28:46,982 Speaker 2: that he apologized for disrupting her Sunday evening and then 431 00:28:47,022 --> 00:28:49,942 Speaker 2: he went back to the house. He then says that 432 00:28:50,182 --> 00:28:54,542 Speaker 2: the children were having their dinner and they were put 433 00:28:54,622 --> 00:28:57,422 Speaker 2: to bed. Crystal says that they usually went to bed 434 00:28:57,422 --> 00:29:01,142 Speaker 2: at about eight thirty pm. John says to some people 435 00:29:01,182 --> 00:29:03,142 Speaker 2: that they had a bit of a disagreement, but not 436 00:29:03,222 --> 00:29:07,822 Speaker 2: too heated. To someone else, he described it as an altercation. Crystal, 437 00:29:07,942 --> 00:29:10,862 Speaker 2: in her statement when she was sixteen years old, says 438 00:29:10,902 --> 00:29:14,102 Speaker 2: that she could hear them arguing when she was in bed, 439 00:29:14,142 --> 00:29:17,422 Speaker 2: and that her mother was crying, and that her mother 440 00:29:17,942 --> 00:29:20,022 Speaker 2: said that she would see her girls in the morning, 441 00:29:20,942 --> 00:29:26,382 Speaker 2: and according to John, Bromlin decided that she needed to 442 00:29:26,502 --> 00:29:28,942 Speaker 2: have a bit of a break and that she told 443 00:29:29,022 --> 00:29:31,302 Speaker 2: him she wanted to go away for a few days 444 00:29:31,622 --> 00:29:35,342 Speaker 2: just to have some time because according to John, she'd 445 00:29:35,862 --> 00:29:37,742 Speaker 2: been with the kids all this time and so on. 446 00:29:38,182 --> 00:29:40,502 Speaker 2: So he says that she went into the bedroom and 447 00:29:40,542 --> 00:29:45,462 Speaker 2: she made a phone call or two, and that at 448 00:29:45,502 --> 00:29:49,982 Speaker 2: about nine to thirty pm, a car drew up and 449 00:29:50,142 --> 00:29:54,662 Speaker 2: Bromlin went outside and got into the car, and the 450 00:29:54,702 --> 00:29:58,262 Speaker 2: car drove away, and he didn't see the car, so 451 00:29:58,302 --> 00:30:01,222 Speaker 2: he doesn't know what kind of car it was, and 452 00:30:01,502 --> 00:30:03,822 Speaker 2: he certainly doesn't know who was driving it or who 453 00:30:03,862 --> 00:30:07,462 Speaker 2: she called. And that's the last time John says he 454 00:30:07,502 --> 00:30:08,182 Speaker 2: saw his wife. 455 00:30:08,782 --> 00:30:11,862 Speaker 1: And then later that evening he says he drove the 456 00:30:11,902 --> 00:30:12,822 Speaker 1: girls to Sydney. 457 00:30:13,542 --> 00:30:17,982 Speaker 2: Yes, so he says that he decided that he should 458 00:30:18,022 --> 00:30:21,422 Speaker 2: go to Sydney, but he'd flown from Sydney to Balana, 459 00:30:21,542 --> 00:30:24,462 Speaker 2: so at that time of night there were no flights. 460 00:30:25,142 --> 00:30:27,862 Speaker 2: He packed up the car, but he didn't put much 461 00:30:27,902 --> 00:30:31,222 Speaker 2: in the car because when they got to Sydney, Bromwin's 462 00:30:31,302 --> 00:30:35,342 Speaker 2: brother and sister in law on the Monday afternoon saw John. 463 00:30:35,422 --> 00:30:38,902 Speaker 2: He came to their house and the kid's clothes were 464 00:30:38,942 --> 00:30:42,262 Speaker 2: sort of thrown into pillowcases. But the clothes that were 465 00:30:42,302 --> 00:30:45,182 Speaker 2: packed were not really clothes you would pack for the 466 00:30:45,262 --> 00:30:47,822 Speaker 2: onset of winter burying in mind the kids would you 467 00:30:47,902 --> 00:30:50,102 Speaker 2: to be in school on the Monday, not in Sydney. 468 00:30:50,582 --> 00:30:53,142 Speaker 2: He says that he got fueled at eleven oh six 469 00:30:53,182 --> 00:30:55,942 Speaker 2: pm and he kept the receipt for that fuel for 470 00:30:56,622 --> 00:30:59,022 Speaker 2: years and years in his wallet, and when people would 471 00:30:59,062 --> 00:31:02,062 Speaker 2: ask him about what happened to Bromwin, he would often 472 00:31:02,102 --> 00:31:05,702 Speaker 2: flourish this receipt, as he did when he got to Sydney, 473 00:31:05,702 --> 00:31:07,822 Speaker 2: as he did five years later when he met the 474 00:31:07,862 --> 00:31:11,862 Speaker 2: detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor, who i'd take this case very 475 00:31:11,902 --> 00:31:15,582 Speaker 2: seriously in nineteen ninety eight when he heard about it. 476 00:31:16,382 --> 00:31:19,662 Speaker 2: And you know, it's always been puzzling for people why 477 00:31:20,342 --> 00:31:23,942 Speaker 2: John has been so wedded to this receipt showing his 478 00:31:24,062 --> 00:31:27,462 Speaker 2: purchase of fuel at eleven oh six pm in Ballina 479 00:31:27,622 --> 00:31:30,262 Speaker 2: on the Sunday night. But he says he drove through 480 00:31:30,302 --> 00:31:34,902 Speaker 2: the night and arrived the next morning in Sydney. And 481 00:31:35,222 --> 00:31:40,142 Speaker 2: he was in Sydney for about eleven days until Roman's 482 00:31:40,182 --> 00:31:43,142 Speaker 2: brother very strongly insisted to him that he had to 483 00:31:43,182 --> 00:31:46,062 Speaker 2: go back up to Lennex, put the kids back into 484 00:31:46,102 --> 00:31:49,822 Speaker 2: school and report Bromwn missing. And he was becoming very 485 00:31:49,822 --> 00:31:51,582 Speaker 2: concerned about what had happened to his sister. 486 00:31:52,622 --> 00:31:56,542 Speaker 1: Hearing that story, it sounds very bizarre, But the police 487 00:31:56,582 --> 00:32:00,262 Speaker 1: didn't really question it in nineteen ninety three, did they not. 488 00:32:00,342 --> 00:32:03,622 Speaker 2: In the way that you would have expected, given the 489 00:32:03,702 --> 00:32:07,222 Speaker 2: fact that, as Glenn Taylor said, there were red flags 490 00:32:07,302 --> 00:32:12,102 Speaker 2: flapping everywhere. I mean, broman had even telephone her solicitor 491 00:32:12,262 --> 00:32:16,742 Speaker 2: on a Sunday at home because she was concerned that 492 00:32:16,822 --> 00:32:20,302 Speaker 2: her husband was returning to the family home that day. 493 00:32:21,142 --> 00:32:23,502 Speaker 2: She had told people she was very scared of him. 494 00:32:23,942 --> 00:32:29,022 Speaker 2: One of her friends in lewis the man we referred 495 00:32:28,982 --> 00:32:32,062 Speaker 2: to as Scruffy because everybody else does in Lennox. He 496 00:32:32,182 --> 00:32:35,022 Speaker 2: spoke to Bromlin about Bromin's decision to move back into 497 00:32:35,022 --> 00:32:38,782 Speaker 2: the family home and he said to her, Bromlin, I 498 00:32:38,822 --> 00:32:41,782 Speaker 2: don't think that's such a good idea. John's going to 499 00:32:42,022 --> 00:32:45,702 Speaker 2: lose it. He's not going to like that. They knew 500 00:32:46,422 --> 00:32:51,582 Speaker 2: his temperament. Scruffy describes him in this way. He says, 501 00:32:51,622 --> 00:32:55,462 Speaker 2: still waters run deep. John doesn't show much, but there's 502 00:32:55,502 --> 00:32:59,382 Speaker 2: a lot going on beneath the surface. And Scruffy was 503 00:32:59,422 --> 00:33:03,782 Speaker 2: concerned for Bromin when she told him days before that 504 00:33:03,902 --> 00:33:05,742 Speaker 2: she was going to move back into the family home 505 00:33:05,742 --> 00:33:10,382 Speaker 2: because John was away. So you're right, Why would such 506 00:33:11,342 --> 00:33:16,422 Speaker 2: a case have been treated with such naive disdain as 507 00:33:16,422 --> 00:33:18,702 Speaker 2: a woman just taking off to do her own thing 508 00:33:18,782 --> 00:33:21,862 Speaker 2: for a while, when it was very obvious to police 509 00:33:22,302 --> 00:33:25,982 Speaker 2: over the ensuing weeks that she wasn't touching her bank accounts, 510 00:33:26,702 --> 00:33:30,422 Speaker 2: she hadn't been in contact with anybody, she hadn't been 511 00:33:30,462 --> 00:33:34,022 Speaker 2: back to the house. But then they then misled themselves, 512 00:33:34,222 --> 00:33:38,422 Speaker 2: the police. They determined on the most ridiculous piece of 513 00:33:38,462 --> 00:33:42,702 Speaker 2: evidence imaginable, that she had actually gone back into the 514 00:33:42,742 --> 00:33:47,102 Speaker 2: house after John had left the house with the children. 515 00:33:47,262 --> 00:33:51,302 Speaker 2: And once they'd satisfied themselves of this, notwithstanding that it 516 00:33:51,342 --> 00:33:56,142 Speaker 2: was completely ludicrous, they i think believed that Brombin was 517 00:33:56,182 --> 00:33:58,382 Speaker 2: alive and was just playing cat and mouse. 518 00:33:58,862 --> 00:34:01,542 Speaker 1: So what was that piece of evidence which cemented that 519 00:34:01,582 --> 00:34:02,582 Speaker 1: belief for police? 520 00:34:03,142 --> 00:34:06,822 Speaker 2: The police got the phone bills, the phone account and 521 00:34:06,862 --> 00:34:09,382 Speaker 2: back then it was Telecom and we used to get 522 00:34:09,422 --> 00:34:13,062 Speaker 2: these printed bills and they would print out STD calls 523 00:34:13,302 --> 00:34:16,782 Speaker 2: and it's a weird name, I know, stands for subscriber 524 00:34:16,862 --> 00:34:21,342 Speaker 2: trunk dialing, and that's the long distance telephone call that 525 00:34:21,382 --> 00:34:23,662 Speaker 2: you could make from your landline. Back in the day. 526 00:34:24,222 --> 00:34:28,022 Speaker 2: Most people wouldn't have had mobile phones in ninety three. 527 00:34:28,102 --> 00:34:30,302 Speaker 2: They were probably just darting to come out, but it 528 00:34:30,302 --> 00:34:33,342 Speaker 2: wouldn't have been very widely used. On the phone bill. 529 00:34:33,382 --> 00:34:36,022 Speaker 2: There was also evidence of a number of calls being 530 00:34:36,062 --> 00:34:39,742 Speaker 2: made to a number that started with zero zero five five, 531 00:34:40,582 --> 00:34:43,702 Speaker 2: and back in the day those zero zero five five 532 00:34:43,822 --> 00:34:49,462 Speaker 2: numbers were information related telephone calls. They were services, so 533 00:34:49,542 --> 00:34:52,582 Speaker 2: if you wanted to check football results, for example, you 534 00:34:52,622 --> 00:34:55,582 Speaker 2: could bring that number. People weren't just going to the 535 00:34:55,622 --> 00:34:58,822 Speaker 2: internet just to check stuff out there. The zero zero 536 00:34:58,942 --> 00:35:03,462 Speaker 2: five to five number appeared on the telephone bill as 537 00:35:03,502 --> 00:35:08,382 Speaker 2: having been called at two thirteen pm on Sunday, sixteen January, 538 00:35:09,022 --> 00:35:11,942 Speaker 2: and that makes sense because Bromwin was in the house 539 00:35:12,142 --> 00:35:16,142 Speaker 2: on that day. John was still in Sydney, he would 540 00:35:16,222 --> 00:35:20,302 Speaker 2: soon be boarding a flight to Ballona and the zero 541 00:35:20,422 --> 00:35:24,262 Speaker 2: zero five to five corps, this particular one was checking 542 00:35:24,262 --> 00:35:28,742 Speaker 2: a lot of results. Bromwin didn't have much money, she 543 00:35:28,942 --> 00:35:33,022 Speaker 2: was trying to make ends meet and no doubt had 544 00:35:33,062 --> 00:35:35,742 Speaker 2: taken a lot of ticket and was checking to see 545 00:35:35,742 --> 00:35:39,182 Speaker 2: whether she'd got lucky. However, when the police got that 546 00:35:39,302 --> 00:35:43,342 Speaker 2: bill all the details from it from Telecom now Telstra, 547 00:35:44,342 --> 00:35:50,382 Speaker 2: for some bizarre reason, they mixed up PM and AM 548 00:35:50,862 --> 00:35:54,462 Speaker 2: and determined that Bromwin was checking a lot of results 549 00:35:54,462 --> 00:36:00,142 Speaker 2: at two thirteen am on Monday morning, and the police 550 00:36:00,462 --> 00:36:04,102 Speaker 2: had evidence from John that he was on the road 551 00:36:04,102 --> 00:36:08,022 Speaker 2: to Sydney and had a received for fuel having been 552 00:36:08,022 --> 00:36:11,942 Speaker 2: purchased at eleven oh six pm that night before. So 553 00:36:12,902 --> 00:36:15,302 Speaker 2: the conclusion that the police drew from this, which they 554 00:36:15,302 --> 00:36:19,462 Speaker 2: put in writing in their own internal reports and running 555 00:36:19,462 --> 00:36:22,222 Speaker 2: sheets and so on, was that the MP or missing 556 00:36:22,222 --> 00:36:26,782 Speaker 2: person Bromwin Winfield, had become aware that her husband had 557 00:36:27,102 --> 00:36:29,782 Speaker 2: left the house with the children, and so had returned 558 00:36:29,822 --> 00:36:33,342 Speaker 2: to the house at two thirteen in the morning to 559 00:36:33,822 --> 00:36:35,622 Speaker 2: ring a number to check her a lot of results, 560 00:36:35,662 --> 00:36:36,502 Speaker 2: and then left again. 561 00:36:38,102 --> 00:36:41,062 Speaker 1: I shouldn't laugh, but it just feels a bit ridiculous. 562 00:36:41,102 --> 00:36:46,422 Speaker 2: Like you said earlier, it's preposterous, just unbelievable that you 563 00:36:46,542 --> 00:36:53,742 Speaker 2: could screw up something so fundamental so badly, and that 564 00:36:53,862 --> 00:36:58,942 Speaker 2: leads the police down the wrong path because in their minds, 565 00:36:59,542 --> 00:37:03,822 Speaker 2: Bromwin is returning to her home when her husband's not there, 566 00:37:04,022 --> 00:37:04,982 Speaker 2: so she must be alive. 567 00:37:17,822 --> 00:37:19,902 Speaker 1: I want to skip through a bit of the police 568 00:37:19,902 --> 00:37:22,742 Speaker 1: investigation side of things, because we know the nineteen ninety 569 00:37:22,742 --> 00:37:25,702 Speaker 1: three investigation didn't really go anywhere, but it was picked 570 00:37:25,782 --> 00:37:27,942 Speaker 1: up again in nineteen ninety eight, and it did go 571 00:37:28,102 --> 00:37:31,662 Speaker 1: somewhere into an inquest in two thousand and two that 572 00:37:31,782 --> 00:37:35,022 Speaker 1: determined that Bronwin died at the time of her disappearance. 573 00:37:35,782 --> 00:37:38,222 Speaker 1: But the DPP never picked that up. They never decided 574 00:37:38,222 --> 00:37:42,822 Speaker 1: to prosecute anyone after hearing those inquest findings. And then 575 00:37:42,862 --> 00:37:45,742 Speaker 1: you pick up the case in twenty twenty four, and 576 00:37:45,782 --> 00:37:49,542 Speaker 1: we still don't have answers. When you did come into 577 00:37:49,582 --> 00:37:52,902 Speaker 1: this story at that point, what did you surmise that 578 00:37:52,982 --> 00:37:55,582 Speaker 1: the case had been forgotten all these years, that it 579 00:37:55,622 --> 00:37:58,622 Speaker 1: was just put into a too hard basket? Why are 580 00:37:58,662 --> 00:37:59,542 Speaker 1: we in this position? 581 00:38:00,062 --> 00:38:02,622 Speaker 2: Well, as a result of me hearing about it from 582 00:38:02,702 --> 00:38:06,502 Speaker 2: Carl in twenty seventeen and then over the last seven 583 00:38:06,662 --> 00:38:11,662 Speaker 2: years making progress getting to know Bronwin's brother and others involved, 584 00:38:12,022 --> 00:38:15,102 Speaker 2: including the detective Glenn Taylor, who was on the case 585 00:38:15,422 --> 00:38:18,102 Speaker 2: from nineteen ninety eight and helped prepare a brief of 586 00:38:18,142 --> 00:38:21,262 Speaker 2: evidence that went to the coroner. I became aware that 587 00:38:21,982 --> 00:38:24,982 Speaker 2: after the appalling nineteen ninety three investigation, a febit of 588 00:38:25,062 --> 00:38:29,382 Speaker 2: work was done and Glenn Taylor ran a comprehensive investigation 589 00:38:30,142 --> 00:38:34,422 Speaker 2: and then detectives from the Unsold Homicide Unit of the 590 00:38:34,422 --> 00:38:38,822 Speaker 2: New South Wales Police had another look in two thousand 591 00:38:38,862 --> 00:38:42,342 Speaker 2: and nine twenty ten, they picked it up again and 592 00:38:42,382 --> 00:38:45,662 Speaker 2: they made a further submission to the office of the 593 00:38:45,662 --> 00:38:50,582 Speaker 2: New South Wales DPP seeking to have John Winfield prosecuted 594 00:38:50,622 --> 00:38:53,902 Speaker 2: for murder because there's no point police charging anybody if 595 00:38:53,902 --> 00:38:56,262 Speaker 2: the DPP is not prepared to run a case. So 596 00:38:57,262 --> 00:39:02,542 Speaker 2: you had in two thousand and three, after Karl Milavanovitch's finding, 597 00:39:03,462 --> 00:39:06,662 Speaker 2: the DPP in New South Wales saying no, there's no 598 00:39:06,702 --> 00:39:10,102 Speaker 2: evidence of any crime and we're not going to prosecute. 599 00:39:10,622 --> 00:39:15,222 Speaker 2: And when Roman's brother followed up with the DPP's office, 600 00:39:15,302 --> 00:39:18,782 Speaker 2: he received a less the written by Nicholas Cowdery the DPP, 601 00:39:19,542 --> 00:39:24,542 Speaker 2: and mister Cawtery said that innuendo rumor can't be a 602 00:39:24,542 --> 00:39:29,422 Speaker 2: substitute for hard evidence and he was unable to authorize 603 00:39:29,422 --> 00:39:32,502 Speaker 2: the prosecution of this case because of the lack of evidence. 604 00:39:32,502 --> 00:39:35,542 Speaker 2: So that was the two thousand and three ruling by 605 00:39:35,582 --> 00:39:38,062 Speaker 2: the office of the DPP. We know that the police 606 00:39:38,062 --> 00:39:40,302 Speaker 2: made a further submission as a result of the Unsolved 607 00:39:40,342 --> 00:39:45,542 Speaker 2: Homicide Humans efforts, and that was also declined by the DPP, 608 00:39:46,222 --> 00:39:49,702 Speaker 2: But I don't believe that we should see that as 609 00:39:50,102 --> 00:39:53,902 Speaker 2: the final word. The same office of the DPP, indeed 610 00:39:53,942 --> 00:39:59,822 Speaker 2: the same DPP himself, Nicholas Cowdery, repeatedly refused to prosecute 611 00:39:59,862 --> 00:40:04,262 Speaker 2: wife killer Chris Dawson. Now, the first time that Chris 612 00:40:04,342 --> 00:40:10,262 Speaker 2: Dawson was prosecuted after the podcast and a renewed investigation 613 00:40:10,462 --> 00:40:14,862 Speaker 2: by New South Wales Police, a judge, acting alone said, 614 00:40:15,022 --> 00:40:18,822 Speaker 2: I have no doubt about his guilt. So I think 615 00:40:18,822 --> 00:40:23,702 Speaker 2: there's a lesson here for journalists, for citizens, for society. 616 00:40:24,222 --> 00:40:29,102 Speaker 2: DPPs don't get everything right, and we shouldn't just accept 617 00:40:29,382 --> 00:40:34,262 Speaker 2: the view. Given that the view is reached often in secrecy, 618 00:40:34,302 --> 00:40:38,422 Speaker 2: we don't understand what thought process, what reasoning has gone 619 00:40:38,462 --> 00:40:42,342 Speaker 2: into the consideration of a brief of evidence. We only 620 00:40:42,422 --> 00:40:47,102 Speaker 2: know that we get a very brief explanation, such as 621 00:40:47,582 --> 00:40:51,502 Speaker 2: there was insufficient evidence, there's no body, And I think 622 00:40:51,542 --> 00:40:54,822 Speaker 2: it's incumbent on journalists, particularly in cases that are as 623 00:40:54,822 --> 00:40:59,902 Speaker 2: deeply suspicious as this one, to challenge and see if 624 00:40:59,942 --> 00:41:02,622 Speaker 2: there's more that can be gathered that could lead to 625 00:41:02,822 --> 00:41:04,542 Speaker 2: a sensible review of the evidence. 626 00:41:05,222 --> 00:41:07,662 Speaker 1: Well, that leads us into your investigation, because that's what 627 00:41:07,702 --> 00:41:12,262 Speaker 1: you've been doing, uncovering more evidence. And I guess the 628 00:41:12,262 --> 00:41:15,742 Speaker 1: biggest bombshell in your investigation was dropped only recently. A 629 00:41:15,742 --> 00:41:19,182 Speaker 1: few days ago. You had an incredible person come forward 630 00:41:19,302 --> 00:41:21,742 Speaker 1: and give you quite mind blowing evidence. Can you talk 631 00:41:21,822 --> 00:41:25,382 Speaker 1: us through what the former Lenox resident and former nurse 632 00:41:25,742 --> 00:41:28,382 Speaker 1: told you that she saw on the night Bronwyn disappeared. 633 00:41:29,262 --> 00:41:32,422 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can. Her name is Judy and she lived 634 00:41:32,542 --> 00:41:35,942 Speaker 2: very close to Bromwin and John Winfield in Lenox Head 635 00:41:36,382 --> 00:41:40,182 Speaker 2: at the time of Bromwin's disappearance. And as you say, 636 00:41:40,262 --> 00:41:42,662 Speaker 2: she's a nurse. She's living in a house with her 637 00:41:42,662 --> 00:41:45,822 Speaker 2: two teenage children. She was also pregnant and she was 638 00:41:45,862 --> 00:41:51,102 Speaker 2: worrying about a miscarriage. And because of her concerns, she says, 639 00:41:51,102 --> 00:41:55,342 Speaker 2: she was up late at night sitting on a balcony 640 00:41:55,422 --> 00:41:58,542 Speaker 2: that overlooked the street. This is Granite Street that runs 641 00:41:58,582 --> 00:42:03,062 Speaker 2: at right angles to Sandstone Crescent where John Bromwin lived, 642 00:42:03,742 --> 00:42:07,142 Speaker 2: and from her vantage points she could see down onto 643 00:42:07,182 --> 00:42:11,302 Speaker 2: the road and she could see in daylight hours into 644 00:42:11,342 --> 00:42:14,582 Speaker 2: the passing cars. She could actually see inside the cars. 645 00:42:15,062 --> 00:42:19,142 Speaker 2: And her friend Kerry McClain, who would visit her, confirmed this. 646 00:42:19,342 --> 00:42:21,582 Speaker 2: Told me that they would often sit out there and 647 00:42:21,742 --> 00:42:24,022 Speaker 2: would be able to see inside as they're having a 648 00:42:24,022 --> 00:42:26,342 Speaker 2: cup of tea and a catch up. They would just 649 00:42:26,382 --> 00:42:28,382 Speaker 2: be looking down. The cars would get past and you 650 00:42:28,382 --> 00:42:31,222 Speaker 2: can see inside them. So that bit we know. But 651 00:42:31,302 --> 00:42:37,502 Speaker 2: at night around midnight. Judy says that the Windfield family 652 00:42:37,662 --> 00:42:42,462 Speaker 2: sedan the Ford Falcon, grow very slowly along Grounde Street 653 00:42:42,502 --> 00:42:47,462 Speaker 2: and she saw the headlights approaching, and unusually, the car 654 00:42:47,542 --> 00:42:52,062 Speaker 2: interior was bathed in light because the interior light had 655 00:42:52,102 --> 00:42:55,702 Speaker 2: been left on for some reason. It was on, and 656 00:42:56,342 --> 00:43:00,462 Speaker 2: Judy says that the driver was John Winfield, and that 657 00:43:00,622 --> 00:43:04,262 Speaker 2: in the back seat there was what looked like a 658 00:43:04,342 --> 00:43:07,662 Speaker 2: body wrapped in a sheet. She's described it as looking 659 00:43:07,742 --> 00:43:10,582 Speaker 2: like a mummy, like an ancient Egyptian mummy, because was 660 00:43:10,622 --> 00:43:15,222 Speaker 2: wrapped tightly. The body, if that's what it was, was 661 00:43:15,702 --> 00:43:19,902 Speaker 2: in a seated position with the head which she couldn't 662 00:43:19,942 --> 00:43:23,982 Speaker 2: see because it was wrapped. And again I'm surmising that 663 00:43:24,022 --> 00:43:26,822 Speaker 2: it's a head based on her description, kind of pushed 664 00:43:26,822 --> 00:43:30,382 Speaker 2: into the corner of the back seat where it meets 665 00:43:30,902 --> 00:43:35,222 Speaker 2: the back door behind the front passenger seat, and the 666 00:43:35,342 --> 00:43:40,862 Speaker 2: feet are going through to the center console. And Judy 667 00:43:40,902 --> 00:43:44,022 Speaker 2: has been haunted by this image that she says she 668 00:43:44,142 --> 00:43:47,702 Speaker 2: saw about two weeks after her birthday. Her birthday is 669 00:43:47,742 --> 00:43:54,502 Speaker 2: May one, and John Winfield returned to Lenox Head on 670 00:43:54,582 --> 00:43:58,502 Speaker 2: May sixteen. He hadn't been living in Lenox Head for 671 00:43:58,662 --> 00:44:02,502 Speaker 2: several weeks. Prior to May sixteen, and his evidence is 672 00:44:02,502 --> 00:44:06,782 Speaker 2: that he left Lennox Head on the evening of May sixteen, 673 00:44:06,902 --> 00:44:09,662 Speaker 2: so it has to be May sixteen if she's positively 674 00:44:09,702 --> 00:44:14,982 Speaker 2: identified that she has seen this. And Judy had a 675 00:44:15,102 --> 00:44:20,222 Speaker 2: lantern on the balustrade thing that was on the balcony there, 676 00:44:20,262 --> 00:44:23,782 Speaker 2: and she said that this light must have attracted John's 677 00:44:23,782 --> 00:44:28,182 Speaker 2: attention because she says he looked up, and whether or 678 00:44:28,262 --> 00:44:31,822 Speaker 2: not he saw her up there, it's unclear, but he 679 00:44:31,862 --> 00:44:34,582 Speaker 2: looked up, and she says he was driving so slowly, 680 00:44:34,742 --> 00:44:38,062 Speaker 2: and she was so sure of what she saw, so 681 00:44:38,222 --> 00:44:42,182 Speaker 2: concerned that what she saw, and she's very adamant about it, 682 00:44:42,182 --> 00:44:45,022 Speaker 2: and she gets quite teary talking about it, because it's 683 00:44:45,022 --> 00:44:48,542 Speaker 2: clear she didn't want to see this. So this image 684 00:44:48,582 --> 00:44:51,342 Speaker 2: from thirty one years ago, you know, is edged in 685 00:44:51,382 --> 00:44:56,022 Speaker 2: her mind. She had a lot on she'd recently had 686 00:44:56,062 --> 00:44:57,942 Speaker 2: to give up her job, she was worried about how 687 00:44:57,982 --> 00:45:00,462 Speaker 2: she was going to support her children, she didn't know 688 00:45:00,462 --> 00:45:03,102 Speaker 2: whether she was going to miscarry the one on the way, 689 00:45:03,782 --> 00:45:08,862 Speaker 2: she was going through breakdown of her marriage, and had 690 00:45:08,862 --> 00:45:12,142 Speaker 2: her own health challenges in her life at that time. 691 00:45:12,822 --> 00:45:16,422 Speaker 2: She says that when she was told by neighbors in 692 00:45:16,462 --> 00:45:20,742 Speaker 2: the street that Bromwin had been reported missing because it 693 00:45:20,782 --> 00:45:22,502 Speaker 2: was obviously there was a bit of a police presence. 694 00:45:22,542 --> 00:45:25,822 Speaker 2: A couple of weeks later, detectives turning up at the 695 00:45:25,862 --> 00:45:29,902 Speaker 2: neighbor's house, Devin Murray Nolan, and also at John's house 696 00:45:29,942 --> 00:45:32,462 Speaker 2: to chat to him. She asked the neighbor what's going 697 00:45:32,502 --> 00:45:34,502 Speaker 2: on and they said, oh, Bromin's been reted missing and 698 00:45:34,502 --> 00:45:37,022 Speaker 2: that's when she thought, oh my god, and she went 699 00:45:37,062 --> 00:45:39,182 Speaker 2: to baal on a police to report it. She says 700 00:45:39,182 --> 00:45:41,222 Speaker 2: she was taken behind the counter of the police station 701 00:45:42,102 --> 00:45:45,382 Speaker 2: and they didn't take a statement from her. She says, 702 00:45:45,382 --> 00:45:48,582 Speaker 2: they couldn't have been less interested. And you know, this 703 00:45:48,702 --> 00:45:51,902 Speaker 2: is just speculation, Jemmy, but I wonder whether it's because 704 00:45:52,422 --> 00:45:55,982 Speaker 2: the police thought, yeah, you know, as she's pregnant and 705 00:45:56,022 --> 00:45:59,822 Speaker 2: she got all her marbles. We already know that Bromwin's 706 00:46:00,422 --> 00:46:03,542 Speaker 2: come back to the house because we've got evidence of 707 00:46:03,582 --> 00:46:05,902 Speaker 2: her making a phone call and checking her lot owe numbers, 708 00:46:06,422 --> 00:46:09,942 Speaker 2: and John has shown us evidence that he's on the road. 709 00:46:10,542 --> 00:46:12,822 Speaker 2: So yeah, it can't be right, I mean, is that 710 00:46:12,942 --> 00:46:17,662 Speaker 2: possible that they've just discounted her version because they preferred his. 711 00:46:18,542 --> 00:46:20,662 Speaker 2: We don't know it's probably going to be impossible to 712 00:46:20,702 --> 00:46:25,542 Speaker 2: find out. I do know, though, that Judy confided what 713 00:46:25,702 --> 00:46:29,902 Speaker 2: she saw to some friends, some people who were close 714 00:46:29,942 --> 00:46:33,262 Speaker 2: to her. She confided it to a woman called Kerry McLain, 715 00:46:33,982 --> 00:46:37,662 Speaker 2: and that's how I knew about Judy and her account 716 00:46:37,822 --> 00:46:42,742 Speaker 2: before Judy contacted me. Kerry McClain her friend from Ballina 717 00:46:42,982 --> 00:46:46,142 Speaker 2: who hadn't seen Judy for years, they'd lost touch. Judy 718 00:46:46,182 --> 00:46:48,782 Speaker 2: had contacted me eighteen months ago to tell me about 719 00:46:48,822 --> 00:46:52,982 Speaker 2: her friend who had witnessed this and had been really 720 00:46:52,982 --> 00:46:56,582 Speaker 2: concerned about it. And when I telephoned Kerry earlier this year, 721 00:46:56,822 --> 00:47:00,462 Speaker 2: when I started properly investigating Bromin's case for the first 722 00:47:00,542 --> 00:47:03,622 Speaker 2: time and trying to do interviews and following up all 723 00:47:03,622 --> 00:47:05,702 Speaker 2: the emails and leads that I've been keeping over the 724 00:47:05,742 --> 00:47:09,422 Speaker 2: previous six and a half years, Kerry agreed to do 725 00:47:09,422 --> 00:47:11,702 Speaker 2: an interview with me, and she talked in the interview 726 00:47:11,782 --> 00:47:15,062 Speaker 2: about what Judy had told Carry over the years about this, 727 00:47:15,382 --> 00:47:18,062 Speaker 2: and Carry said I was so concerned about it that 728 00:47:18,222 --> 00:47:20,862 Speaker 2: I Kerrie also contacted the police and said, you need 729 00:47:20,902 --> 00:47:23,622 Speaker 2: to talk to my friend Judy Willer brands. Her name 730 00:47:23,662 --> 00:47:26,142 Speaker 2: now is Judy Singing. She had a lot going on 731 00:47:26,182 --> 00:47:30,782 Speaker 2: in her life. I think she reported it to police, 732 00:47:31,102 --> 00:47:33,822 Speaker 2: but I wasn't there. I don't know. Please follow up 733 00:47:33,822 --> 00:47:37,062 Speaker 2: with her because this case is unsolved, and Carrie says 734 00:47:37,102 --> 00:47:40,502 Speaker 2: she never heard back from the police herself, and it 735 00:47:40,622 --> 00:47:44,302 Speaker 2: seems Judy wasn't contacted either by police. Judy probably didn't 736 00:47:44,302 --> 00:47:47,622 Speaker 2: know Kerry had even done that. But when Judy contacted 737 00:47:47,622 --> 00:47:50,862 Speaker 2: me on June nine by email, as soon as her 738 00:47:50,902 --> 00:47:54,102 Speaker 2: email arrived in my inbox, I had an understanding about 739 00:47:54,102 --> 00:47:56,702 Speaker 2: what it would be about, even though she didn't say 740 00:47:56,822 --> 00:48:01,782 Speaker 2: in the email. She just said I saw him leaving 741 00:48:01,822 --> 00:48:05,342 Speaker 2: on the night prob and disappeared the interior light was on. 742 00:48:05,862 --> 00:48:09,262 Speaker 2: But I, because of the background I had from having 743 00:48:09,502 --> 00:48:13,062 Speaker 2: talked to Carrie's six months earlier, you know, I appreciated 744 00:48:13,142 --> 00:48:15,222 Speaker 2: the significance of this, and I had been trying to 745 00:48:15,302 --> 00:48:18,102 Speaker 2: find Judy, but because of the moves and changing her name, 746 00:48:18,222 --> 00:48:19,502 Speaker 2: she was living with her doeler, she was a bit 747 00:48:19,542 --> 00:48:21,662 Speaker 2: hard to track down, and I didn't tell her for 748 00:48:21,702 --> 00:48:24,982 Speaker 2: some time that I already knew all about her from Kerrie. 749 00:48:25,262 --> 00:48:27,662 Speaker 2: She was quite surprised, but then she wasn't because she 750 00:48:27,702 --> 00:48:30,422 Speaker 2: said she confided this to a number of people, and 751 00:48:30,502 --> 00:48:34,302 Speaker 2: I spoke to Kerry about her veracity, her credibility. Kerrie 752 00:48:34,302 --> 00:48:37,102 Speaker 2: told me that Judy was a very reliable person. She 753 00:48:37,262 --> 00:48:39,822 Speaker 2: would not tell tall stories. She was highly credible. She 754 00:48:39,902 --> 00:48:43,702 Speaker 2: was a career nurse, a very dedicated mother herself. And 755 00:48:43,782 --> 00:48:47,062 Speaker 2: I found that too when I spoke to her at length, 756 00:48:47,142 --> 00:48:50,782 Speaker 2: initially over the telephone in recorded interviews and then I 757 00:48:50,822 --> 00:48:55,782 Speaker 2: met her in northern New South Wales. She's, I believe, 758 00:48:56,382 --> 00:48:59,742 Speaker 2: a woman who's sincerely sure of what she says she saw. 759 00:49:00,782 --> 00:49:04,662 Speaker 1: What's the reaction been so far to the podcast? Police 760 00:49:04,702 --> 00:49:06,742 Speaker 1: taking your evidence seriously? 761 00:49:07,342 --> 00:49:10,702 Speaker 2: I believe that they are. They wasted no time in 762 00:49:10,742 --> 00:49:12,942 Speaker 2: wanting to reach Judy sing So within a couple of 763 00:49:12,942 --> 00:49:17,182 Speaker 2: hours of the episode seven dropping, I got an email 764 00:49:17,302 --> 00:49:22,222 Speaker 2: from an Assistant Commissioner of Police, Mick Fitzgerald, seeking duty's 765 00:49:22,262 --> 00:49:26,502 Speaker 2: contact details. I handed those over immediately. I'm sure that 766 00:49:26,902 --> 00:49:29,662 Speaker 2: they're going to get a very detailed statement from her. 767 00:49:30,302 --> 00:49:34,982 Speaker 1: Obviously, with the Teacher's pet with Lynette Simms's case, there 768 00:49:35,062 --> 00:49:39,102 Speaker 1: was an ending, there was justice. We've got someone behind bars. 769 00:49:39,822 --> 00:49:42,102 Speaker 1: Are you putting pressure on yourself this time to see 770 00:49:42,142 --> 00:49:43,142 Speaker 1: a similar outcome? 771 00:49:43,782 --> 00:49:46,582 Speaker 2: I don't feel like I'm putting pressure on myself. But 772 00:49:46,662 --> 00:49:50,062 Speaker 2: I hope that if the evidence puts pressure on those 773 00:49:50,822 --> 00:49:55,462 Speaker 2: who should be reviewing a case that was always deeply suspicious. 774 00:49:55,902 --> 00:49:59,622 Speaker 2: But that's a good thing. I can't force an outcome. 775 00:50:00,102 --> 00:50:04,262 Speaker 2: I can only be the messenger in showing things that 776 00:50:04,302 --> 00:50:09,742 Speaker 2: have happened, evidence that perhaps was not properly considered, facts 777 00:50:10,062 --> 00:50:14,582 Speaker 2: and d guitars that make no sense. I don't believe 778 00:50:15,382 --> 00:50:23,422 Speaker 2: that mothers just willfully, without any extreme events in their lives, 779 00:50:24,182 --> 00:50:28,982 Speaker 2: walk out without any warning on their young children. I 780 00:50:29,022 --> 00:50:33,062 Speaker 2: don't believe that that happens unless there's some intervening event. 781 00:50:33,742 --> 00:50:38,702 Speaker 2: Of course, there will be cases of women with very 782 00:50:38,902 --> 00:50:45,102 Speaker 2: serious personal issues, perhaps addictions or other external events that 783 00:50:45,982 --> 00:50:49,782 Speaker 2: have distorted their judgment and cause them to do something extreme, 784 00:50:50,422 --> 00:50:55,862 Speaker 2: but they're very, very rare, and they're different to what 785 00:50:55,902 --> 00:50:59,862 Speaker 2: we're talking about here. Bromwin didn't have any of those issues. 786 00:51:00,502 --> 00:51:04,102 Speaker 2: She had appointments and plans, and I just think we 787 00:51:04,262 --> 00:51:07,182 Speaker 2: have to go back to our common sense and our 788 00:51:07,782 --> 00:51:11,862 Speaker 2: understanding of the incredible bond that young mothers have with 789 00:51:11,942 --> 00:51:15,662 Speaker 2: their children and ask ourselves, does this past the smell test? 790 00:51:15,702 --> 00:51:17,142 Speaker 2: Does this seemed plausible? 791 00:51:17,942 --> 00:51:20,422 Speaker 1: I'm talking to you in the midst of this investigation, 792 00:51:20,982 --> 00:51:24,502 Speaker 1: You're still uncoveringly, You're still talking to people, You're still 793 00:51:24,502 --> 00:51:28,902 Speaker 1: putting out episodes. I spoke to you after the Teacher's Pet, 794 00:51:28,982 --> 00:51:32,702 Speaker 1: after everything had died down, and you, in retrospect, spoke 795 00:51:32,742 --> 00:51:35,622 Speaker 1: about how hard it was, the strains on your marriage, 796 00:51:35,742 --> 00:51:39,702 Speaker 1: the strains on your time, the lack of sleep. Do 797 00:51:39,782 --> 00:51:42,902 Speaker 1: you feel like that's happening again or are you able 798 00:51:42,942 --> 00:51:47,062 Speaker 1: to put a bit more boundary around your investigation this time? 799 00:51:47,142 --> 00:51:51,182 Speaker 2: Well, where's my wife? You're still here, you know, you 800 00:51:51,262 --> 00:51:56,782 Speaker 2: know the marriage is solid. Other strains certainly are always present, 801 00:51:57,142 --> 00:52:02,262 Speaker 2: and you can't do this without making very heavy commitment. 802 00:52:02,582 --> 00:52:06,222 Speaker 2: But you know there's an end point and if you 803 00:52:06,422 --> 00:52:09,702 Speaker 2: just put your head down and sold your on, you know, 804 00:52:09,782 --> 00:52:13,142 Speaker 2: you reach it and then you can step back and 805 00:52:13,342 --> 00:52:16,062 Speaker 2: leave it to others. I think that this is a 806 00:52:16,102 --> 00:52:20,982 Speaker 2: really important case, and these cases, as they become better 807 00:52:21,062 --> 00:52:26,102 Speaker 2: understood by the general public and as listeners delve into 808 00:52:26,102 --> 00:52:29,262 Speaker 2: the details and appreciate what's gone on and the dynamics 809 00:52:29,262 --> 00:52:33,662 Speaker 2: of relationships and also how the criminal justice system works 810 00:52:33,702 --> 00:52:39,222 Speaker 2: and sometimes sadly doesn't work. There's an impact on many 811 00:52:39,262 --> 00:52:45,262 Speaker 2: other cases that are potentially just waiting to be properly understood. 812 00:52:45,622 --> 00:52:52,422 Speaker 2: There's an awareness that leads to those cases hopefully being renewed, 813 00:52:53,062 --> 00:52:57,942 Speaker 2: hopefully getting the attention of people other than myself, people 814 00:52:57,942 --> 00:53:01,222 Speaker 2: who will look at those cases with fresh eyes and 815 00:53:01,542 --> 00:53:04,422 Speaker 2: maybe give some justice to the victims and their families. 816 00:53:05,262 --> 00:53:08,742 Speaker 1: Well, you're only one man, one journalist, one team. You're 817 00:53:08,742 --> 00:53:11,342 Speaker 1: obviously looking into Bronwin's story. You've looked into Lynn's story 818 00:53:11,422 --> 00:53:15,502 Speaker 1: and quite a few other women's stories. But I can't 819 00:53:15,502 --> 00:53:18,342 Speaker 1: help but think how many other cases there are out 820 00:53:18,342 --> 00:53:22,062 Speaker 1: there that are similar, where it's women that have gone 821 00:53:22,062 --> 00:53:25,302 Speaker 1: missing and something potentially more has happened and it hasn't 822 00:53:25,302 --> 00:53:27,622 Speaker 1: been investigated. Do you think about that a lot? 823 00:53:28,142 --> 00:53:30,622 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do, Jemma, And what I hope is that 824 00:53:30,742 --> 00:53:37,022 Speaker 2: many many more media organizations and journalists will dedicate resources 825 00:53:37,062 --> 00:53:41,942 Speaker 2: to investigating those I get now dozens of emails a 826 00:53:41,982 --> 00:53:45,702 Speaker 2: week from people asking me to address a range of 827 00:53:45,822 --> 00:53:49,382 Speaker 2: terrible crimes. They're not all missing women, but a number 828 00:53:49,382 --> 00:53:53,502 Speaker 2: of them are. But I can't find enough time to 829 00:53:53,582 --> 00:54:00,022 Speaker 2: dedicate to Romlin's investigation, let alone picking up so many others. 830 00:54:00,542 --> 00:54:04,462 Speaker 2: You can only really do one, maybe one and a 831 00:54:04,502 --> 00:54:08,982 Speaker 2: half a year, and do them well. So it would 832 00:54:08,982 --> 00:54:13,622 Speaker 2: be good if many more journalists were doing these, because 833 00:54:13,782 --> 00:54:17,662 Speaker 2: I'm sure we would see more outcomes that have been 834 00:54:17,702 --> 00:54:18,822 Speaker 2: denied the families. 835 00:54:19,382 --> 00:54:22,982 Speaker 1: And lastly, I just wanted to check. Obviously, you're getting 836 00:54:22,982 --> 00:54:25,782 Speaker 1: to know Bromwyn's family, You've gotten to know them very well, 837 00:54:26,582 --> 00:54:29,342 Speaker 1: and what are they hoping to see from this investigation. 838 00:54:30,142 --> 00:54:34,062 Speaker 2: Well, it depends on which part of Bromin's family you're from. 839 00:54:34,302 --> 00:54:39,182 Speaker 2: Bromwin's eldest daughter, Crystal, is I think in a very 840 00:54:39,182 --> 00:54:42,702 Speaker 2: difficult place where she wants to maintain a relationship with 841 00:54:42,742 --> 00:54:46,222 Speaker 2: her sister, and her sister has a very strong belief 842 00:54:46,302 --> 00:54:50,022 Speaker 2: in the innocence of her father. And then you have 843 00:54:50,422 --> 00:54:55,222 Speaker 2: Bromlin's brother Andy and his wife Michelle, and Bromlin's cousins 844 00:54:55,342 --> 00:54:58,942 Speaker 2: who have been very very sure for a long time 845 00:54:59,222 --> 00:55:03,022 Speaker 2: that the coroner, Karl Millavanovitch got it right and that 846 00:55:03,142 --> 00:55:06,142 Speaker 2: John should have been prosecuted for murder. And of course 847 00:55:06,302 --> 00:55:10,902 Speaker 2: John's eldest daughter, Jodie, who wasn't related to Bromin, she 848 00:55:11,302 --> 00:55:15,142 Speaker 2: believes emphatically and her father too, so you know, there 849 00:55:15,182 --> 00:55:17,902 Speaker 2: is quite a bit of division there. I don't have 850 00:55:17,982 --> 00:55:24,102 Speaker 2: direct contact with John's youngest daughter, nor with his oldest 851 00:55:24,182 --> 00:55:27,502 Speaker 2: daughter but I have had contact with Crystal and I've 852 00:55:27,702 --> 00:55:33,662 Speaker 2: completely respected her wish to remain detached from the podcast. 853 00:55:33,742 --> 00:55:36,182 Speaker 2: There's been no pressure at all from me on her 854 00:55:36,622 --> 00:55:40,662 Speaker 2: to be part of it. Her family, her uncle Andy 855 00:55:40,822 --> 00:55:44,222 Speaker 2: is keeping her briefed, and her Auntie Kim, who is 856 00:55:44,342 --> 00:55:47,942 Speaker 2: Bromin's half sister, is also keeping her up to speed 857 00:55:47,942 --> 00:55:50,942 Speaker 2: with everything. I hope. I don't know exactly what they're 858 00:55:50,942 --> 00:55:54,462 Speaker 2: briefing her on, but these podcasts and the very rawness 859 00:55:54,462 --> 00:55:57,302 Speaker 2: of the detail that comes out, it must be incredibly 860 00:55:57,342 --> 00:56:00,782 Speaker 2: disruptive for families, you know, and I feel for those 861 00:56:00,822 --> 00:56:04,382 Speaker 2: who are affected by it from all sides of the family. 862 00:56:04,982 --> 00:56:07,982 Speaker 1: But sometimes it seems you need a disruption like this 863 00:56:08,742 --> 00:56:10,742 Speaker 1: to be able to push for just us. 864 00:56:11,462 --> 00:56:15,542 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, I think that if Bromwin did 865 00:56:15,702 --> 00:56:19,502 Speaker 2: meet with foul play, then it is a terrible thing, 866 00:56:20,382 --> 00:56:25,262 Speaker 2: and it's made worse by the characterization of Bromwin as 867 00:56:25,342 --> 00:56:31,022 Speaker 2: a reckless, uncaring mother. She was anything but everybody. Everybody 868 00:56:31,102 --> 00:56:34,262 Speaker 2: who I've talked to tells me how committed she was. 869 00:56:34,342 --> 00:56:37,942 Speaker 2: She was, like Lynn, lived for her kids, would do 870 00:56:37,982 --> 00:56:38,862 Speaker 2: anything for them. 871 00:56:38,982 --> 00:56:44,062 Speaker 1: Now we've just got to find out what happened to her. 872 00:56:47,142 --> 00:56:49,942 Speaker 1: Thanks to Headley Thomas for assisting us to tell this story. 873 00:56:50,502 --> 00:56:53,622 Speaker 1: You can find the Bronwin podcast linked in our show notes. 874 00:56:54,342 --> 00:56:57,462 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Muma Meer podcast hosted and 875 00:56:57,462 --> 00:57:01,422 Speaker 1: produced by me Jemma Bass, with audio design by Scott Stronik. 876 00:57:01,902 --> 00:57:16,222 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Lift Proud