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Speaker 1: On January fifteenth, nineteen seventy four, fifteen year old Charlie

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Speaker 1: a Terror and two of his four siblings arrived home

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Speaker 1: in Wichita, Kansas. And immediately they know something's not right.

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Speaker 1: Their dog Lucky's outside, and that never happens. He went

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Speaker 1: in through the back door, saw his mum's purse flipped

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Speaker 1: up on the stove in the kitchen and things were

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Speaker 1: tossed around.

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Speaker 2: It's a mess.

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Speaker 1: He knows his mother would never willingly leave behind. She

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Speaker 1: was so neat and tidy. Is anyone home, Charlie yelled

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Speaker 1: to the eerily quiet house. The only response was one

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Speaker 1: of his siblings, who yelled for him from another room

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Speaker 1: to come quick, that it looked like their mom and

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Speaker 1: dad were playing a really awful trick on them.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't a trick.

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Speaker 1: Charlie's mother, Julie, was lying tied up on the bed,

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Speaker 1: his father Joseph, on the floor a belt wrapped around

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Speaker 1: his neck. In that instant, Charlie says, his heart was

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Speaker 1: ripped from his chest. After police arrived, they also found

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Speaker 1: two of Charlie's other siblings, little eleven year old Josephine

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Speaker 1: in the basement and nine year old Joey Junior in

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Speaker 1: another room. All four had been bound, tortured, and killed,

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Speaker 1: a mantra that would haunt the Wichita community for decades

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Speaker 1: to come by the man known as.

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Speaker 3: B t K.

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Speaker 1: The BTK Killer would eventually be revealed, but it would

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Speaker 1: come with taunts to police from the killer himself while

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Speaker 1: for decades he.

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Speaker 2: Remained a free man.

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Speaker 1: Once it all came undone, though his identity would shock everyone.

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Speaker 1: I'm Clare Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a

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Speaker 1: podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to

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Speaker 1: the people who know the most about them.

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Speaker 2: The BTK killer didn't.

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Speaker 1: Stop at the four members of the Ottera family, and

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Speaker 1: he wanted people to know about it. After three men

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Speaker 1: were taken into custody accused of the Otero family murders,

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Speaker 1: BTK decided it's time to let everyone know that they

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Speaker 1: had the wrong guys. He didn't want them taking credit

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Speaker 1: for his work, so he sent a letter to the

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Speaker 1: Wichita Eagle, a local newspaper, describing the four murders in detail.

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Speaker 1: In it, he claimed he did it all by himself,

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Speaker 1: with no one's help. He also explained that he struggled

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Speaker 1: sometimes with urges and that he had an alter ego

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Speaker 1: he referred to as the Monster. These letters would continue

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Speaker 1: as the bodies piled up. Twenty one year old Katherine

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Speaker 1: Bright was killed after the man broke into the home

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Speaker 1: she shared with her brother Kevin. He tried to strangle Kevin,

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Speaker 1: but Kevin fought back and ended up being shot in

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Speaker 1: the head. He miraculously somehow survived and sought help. Sadly,

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Speaker 1: his sister didn't make it, but when police arrived, the

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Speaker 1: killer was gone. Three years later, on March seventeen, nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy seven, five year old Stephen had been sent to

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Speaker 1: the shop to get a few things for his mum's

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Speaker 1: shit early Ryan, who was unwell. On his way, he

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Speaker 1: was intercepted by a man who convinced Stephen to let

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Speaker 1: him inside the house. Grown up Stephen, when the man

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Speaker 1: who would go on to murder his mother was eventually

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Speaker 1: caught and said to jail, would tell reporters that he

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Speaker 1: would carry the guilt of that day in.

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Speaker 2: His heart forever.

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Speaker 1: As the man locked him and his two siblings in

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Speaker 1: the bathroom, where they were forced to hear their mother's screams.

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Speaker 1: They did eventually escape through a window and alerted neighbors,

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Speaker 1: but by that time the killer was gone. In December

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven, Nancy Fox would become victim number seven.

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Speaker 1: A man believed to be the killer called police from

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Speaker 1: a phone box, alerting them to her body's location, and

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Speaker 1: this would become part of btk'smo He wanted people to

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Speaker 1: know what he'd done. Years would pass before btk's eighth

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Speaker 1: victim came across her killer, this one much closer to home.

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Speaker 1: His family would later find out that their father and

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Speaker 1: husband had killed their neighbor, Marine Hedge. But then BTK

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Speaker 1: seemed to go quiet. Police presumed he was either in

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Speaker 1: jail for another crime or dead, and so the people

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Speaker 1: of Wichita went back to feeling safe again. But it

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Speaker 1: wouldn't last years after. In March two thousand and four,

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Speaker 1: after the anniversary of his first killing, the media speculated

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Speaker 1: about the fate of the man who called himself BTK.

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Speaker 1: A month later, another letter arrived at the Wichita Eagle,

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Speaker 1: and this one included the driver's license of a young

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Speaker 1: woman that police didn't even realize was connected to the

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Speaker 1: BTK murders. And not only was it an unsolved homicide,

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Speaker 1: the nineteen eighty six murder of Vicki Weger happened in

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Speaker 1: the time that police thought he was dormant. More letters followed.

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Speaker 1: At tip off from the killer led a news team

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Speaker 1: to a serial box left under a sign on a

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Speaker 1: country road that had a barbie doll tied up like

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Speaker 1: his victims. Another victim, Dolores Davis, would bring the BTK

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Speaker 1: killers total to ten. Then BTK asked if he could

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Speaker 1: switch from writing letters that he believed could be traced

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Speaker 1: to sending police a floppy disc. He asked officers to

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Speaker 1: be honest when they responded about whether it would lead

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Speaker 1: them straight to him, asking for them to post in

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Speaker 1: the local paper that it would be fine, after which

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Speaker 1: BTK sent them that floppy disc, which investigators immediately linked

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Speaker 1: to being in use at a local church and library.

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Speaker 1: When they checked who logged into those computers, one name

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Speaker 1: crossmatched Dennis Raider. Dennis Raider was employed by the city

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Speaker 1: as a compliance officer. He checked things like when properties

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Speaker 1: got overgrown weeds and caught stray dogs. He was married,

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Speaker 1: two kids, all living the quiet suburban life with family

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Speaker 1: trips to the Grand Canyon in pictures of the four

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Speaker 1: of them on the walls, but that evidence alone wasn't

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Speaker 1: enough to bring him in. One officer noted, though, that

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Speaker 1: his daughter, Kerry, had attended a local university, and he

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Speaker 1: wondered if she'd ever been checked at the medical facility.

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Speaker 2: He found she had. She'd done her perhaps mere there.

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Speaker 1: The lab handed over her DNA and it showed that

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Speaker 1: she was the daughter of the BTK killer, an unassuming

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Speaker 1: man in his fifties, the president of his local church association,

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Speaker 1: and a Scout leader. His family was shocked, his community

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Speaker 1: was shocked. The media, who'd been reporting on this monster

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Speaker 1: for thirty years, was shocked when in two thousand and five,

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Speaker 1: Dennis Raider was arrested and charged with the murders of

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Speaker 1: ten people. His daughter, Kerry is the only member of

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Speaker 1: her family who's spoken out about her father's crimes, defending

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Speaker 1: her family from those who believed they should have known,

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Speaker 1: especially when Dennis led police to his office filing cabinet,

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Speaker 1: where photos, drawings, and notebooks documenting the killings were stored

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Speaker 1: unlocked for anyone to access.

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Speaker 2: And when he stood up.

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Speaker 1: In court, he revisited every one of those murders, outlining

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Speaker 1: the details down to how he would have to change

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Speaker 1: tax Sometimes when strangulation didn't work, how his victims begged

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Speaker 1: for their lives, and how he would cruise around just

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Speaker 1: waiting for that feeling to come over him that this

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Speaker 1: was a perfect next one. He seemed proud of his crimes,

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Speaker 1: wanting to make sure everyone knew what he'd done. When

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Speaker 1: it came to delivering his final speech in court, the

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Speaker 1: victim's families finally got their moment in unison. They stood

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Speaker 1: and left the room, ensuring Dennis Raider would not get

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Speaker 1: the chance to revel in his murderous past in front

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Speaker 1: of them again.

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Speaker 2: Kerry wasn't there that day. She wanted to ensure that the.

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Speaker 1: Victim's families were able to go through this without their

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Speaker 1: story getting in the way. But many years later, she

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Speaker 1: broke her silence and wrote a book about her father's

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Speaker 1: crimes and the impact it's had on not just the victims' families,

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Speaker 1: but on hers too, and struggled to relate the man

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Speaker 1: she knew was her dad to.

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Speaker 2: The BTK Killer.

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Speaker 1: Her story is the focus of a new Netflix documentary

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Speaker 1: called My Father the BTK Killer, directed by Sky Borgman,

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Speaker 1: who also made Unknown Number. The story of Lauren Lacari

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Speaker 1: and her boyfriend Owen, who were trolled for more than

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Speaker 1: a year by her own mother. Sky spent two years

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Speaker 1: working alongside Carrie as she tries to work out whether

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Speaker 1: her father had any more victims and how she lives

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Speaker 1: with the shame of her father's actions. More than twenty

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Speaker 1: years later, Sky joins us, Now, how did you, first

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Speaker 1: of all, get into directing true crime documentaries?

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Speaker 2: What was that journey like for you?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I started out in the industry as a

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Speaker 3: director of photography, and I was sort of doing both

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Speaker 3: scripted and documentary work as a DP, and had always

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Speaker 3: loved real stories and real people and the opportunity to

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Speaker 3: kind of go and talk to people who I would

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Speaker 3: not normally in my everyday life get the opportunity to

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Speaker 3: talk to, and so more and more and more I

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Speaker 3: started doing documentaries and the crime element of the documentaries

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Speaker 3: really happened by chance. The first documentary I did that

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Speaker 3: got a lot of attention was called Abducted in Plain Sight,

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Speaker 3: And when I was making that documentary, I didn't really

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Speaker 3: even know that it was a true crime documentary or

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Speaker 3: that it would be thought about as a true crime documentary.

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Speaker 3: It was really a story about a family whose daughter

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Speaker 3: is abducted twice by their best friend and neighbor, and

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Speaker 3: I wanted to tell the complexity of the family dynamic

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Speaker 3: and of how a perpetrator can sort of implement himself

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Speaker 3: into people's lives and groom not just the victim, but

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Speaker 3: the parents and the family in a community. And so

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Speaker 3: that one got a lot of attention, and from that

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Speaker 3: moment on, really people started looking at me as a

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Speaker 3: director who deals with sensitive subject matter, who can craft

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Speaker 3: a pretty good story with some pretty good twists and turns,

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Speaker 3: and that kind of naturally led its way to the

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Speaker 3: true crime genre.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's something that seems to be a thread throughout

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Speaker 1: all of your documentaries is your ability to connect with

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Speaker 1: the victims and the victim's families and in the case

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Speaker 1: of BTK, the murderer's family too, which is often aside

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Speaker 1: we don't see when we know in the aftermath of

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Speaker 1: these terrible crimes, What is it do you think about

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Speaker 1: your approach and the way that you handle it that's

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Speaker 1: giving you this ability to really make that connection with

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Speaker 1: people comfortable enough to tell their stories to you the

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Speaker 1: way they do.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think it really is an unending curiosity

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Speaker 3: on my part to know about people, to hear people's stories,

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Speaker 3: to really listen to what they have to say without

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Speaker 3: sort of interrupting or trying to trying to force a narrative,

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Speaker 3: and to really hear their stories and have a willingness

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Speaker 3: to look at all the different layers that exist there.

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Speaker 3: And that's part of what I like so much about

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Speaker 3: what I do is just being able to sit with

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Speaker 3: people and talk about some of the things that are

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Speaker 3: kind of the deepest, darkest, most compelling parts of their lives,

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Speaker 3: and to be able to sit across from them and

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Speaker 3: have a camera rolling on that creates this really interesting

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Speaker 3: environment where they feel really listened to, and for that

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Speaker 3: I'm really grateful.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about Carrie.

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Speaker 1: She really is the focus of this current documentary, My Father,

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Speaker 1: the BTK Killer. She is a daughter of Dennis Raider,

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Speaker 1: who murdered at least ten people as far as we know.

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Speaker 1: What was that like to sit down with Carrie and

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Speaker 1: really get the perspective of someone whose family member is

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Speaker 1: the criminal in this case, rather than speaking to say,

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Speaker 1: the victims' families.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. Kry and I spent a lot of

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Speaker 3: time together, so it went beyond just kind of one

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Speaker 3: sit down interview with one person, and this story is

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Speaker 3: really hers to tell. I mean, she I think represents

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Speaker 3: a sliver of victims whose stories aren't told that often,

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Speaker 3: or even who aren't really thought about as being victims

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Speaker 3: because they're family members. And so I really wanted to

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Speaker 3: talk to her and find out what it was like

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Speaker 3: to be the daughter of Dennis Raider and what it

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Speaker 3: is that she does. And Carrie specifically is incredibly active

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Speaker 3: in advocating for other people, and she has found her

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Speaker 3: pathway forward by trying to really advocate for others expose

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Speaker 3: kind of what it is like to be the daughter

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Speaker 3: of a serial killer or the family member of a perpetrator.

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Speaker 3: And so she's taken this step of being incredibly public

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Speaker 3: for a lot of different reactions. Right, some people think

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Speaker 3: she's amazing, some people think she's horrible because she's profiting

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Speaker 3: off of her father's name, and so she's gotten such

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Speaker 3: incredible sort of divisive reactions, and so I just really

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Speaker 3: appreciate what she's been through. I didn't when we first

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Speaker 3: started making this film. I didn't realize the negative sort

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Speaker 3: of backlash that she's gotten her entire life since her

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Speaker 3: father was arrested. Really, so it's from two thousand and

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Speaker 3: five how negatively some people reach out to her online,

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Speaker 3: and I was so surprised by that and really wanted

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Speaker 3: to put that forward so that maybe people will have

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Speaker 3: a little bit more insight into what it's like to

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Speaker 3: be the daughter of a serial killer.

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Speaker 1: There's a really interesting moment in the documentary where you

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Speaker 1: follow her back to where her home was that she

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Speaker 1: shared with her father at the time where he was

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Speaker 1: committing these murders. It's been demolished now so that she

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Speaker 1: says people can't profit from taking pieces of a serial

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Speaker 1: killer's home. But you can see the reaction from the

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Speaker 1: neighbors is really quite shocking. Like you would think that

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Speaker 1: the people that she grew up and around would be

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Speaker 1: supportive of her, but they were very much not so very.

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Speaker 3: Much not so they really did not like us coming

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Speaker 3: to the property. I would imagine that we're not the

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Speaker 3: first people to come there, that there are many many

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Speaker 3: people who drive by, who get out, take pictures, who

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Speaker 3: do various different things. So I can imagine that it's

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Speaker 3: quite a burden on the neighborhood. What's interesting to me

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Speaker 3: about what she says is that she says, you don't

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Speaker 3: have to live with us every day, and it's just

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Speaker 3: so wrong because I mean, Carrie does have to live

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Speaker 3: with us every day, maybe not people showing up to

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Speaker 3: a doorstep, but she has to live with who her

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Speaker 3: father was every day. And so it is it is

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Speaker 3: really interesting that interaction that we had.

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Speaker 1: Can we talk about Dennis Ryder he started his healing

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Speaker 1: spree in the early nineteen seventies. Do we get an

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Speaker 1: understanding really as to what started him down this path

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Speaker 1: because it seems just from looking at him and his

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Speaker 1: life that it kind of came out of nowhere.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's what it seems. It seems that it

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Speaker 3: came out of nowhere. There are there are various different

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Speaker 3: psychologists who have sort of made their thoughts and feelings

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Speaker 3: about where Dennis came from or how he got to

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Speaker 3: be who he was, you know, open to the public.

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Speaker 3: But really we don't know. I mean, we know a

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Speaker 3: little bit about his history, but we don't have a

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Speaker 3: really clear insight of Like, I don't think there was

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Speaker 3: one specific thing that sort of happened to him that

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Speaker 3: led him on this path.

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Speaker 1: Do you think what makes his crimes so much more

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Speaker 1: shocking is just how normal he seemed from the outside,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that he wasn't some creepy loaner in

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Speaker 1: abasement somewhere.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's a lot easier to think

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Speaker 3: of them as creeps in the basement who are sort

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Speaker 3: of unknown to us. And I do think that his

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Speaker 3: crimes and his ability to sort of separate that BTK

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Speaker 3: killer and himself as Denis Raider, the father, the family man,

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Speaker 3: that the church goer, the scout leader, you know, that

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Speaker 3: is terrifying. And I think it is because we think

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Speaker 3: we know who our family is, we think we know

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Speaker 3: who our friends are, and to have this man sort

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Speaker 3: of representative that maybe we don't know exactly who who

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Speaker 3: we're living with or who our neighbor is, that's a

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Speaker 3: scary thought.

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Speaker 1: I think what's also so wild is just how much

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Speaker 1: evidence was laying around ready to be discovered when you,

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Speaker 1: you know, discover that he had a kill kid kind

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Speaker 1: of stashed in the front hallway, you know, with gaffetape

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Speaker 1: and rope and various ow the implements, and it just

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Speaker 1: seems like he was so blase about keeping so much evidence.

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Speaker 1: Like I guess that's why people maybe don't believe that

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Speaker 1: his family didn't realize what he was doing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I also kind of wonder, like if I

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Speaker 3: think about myself and I'm like, if there was a

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Speaker 3: locked cabinet, I would be super suspicious, Like in my household,

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Speaker 3: I what's locked up in that cabinet, Whereas there's just

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Speaker 3: a closet with a bunch of crap in it that

305
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Speaker 3: I need to go out, and I'm like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 3: You've got to clean this closet. I'm not super suspicious

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Speaker 3: about that. So I think you're right. I think it

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Speaker 3: is part of the reason why people think that Carrie's

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Speaker 3: mom or Carrie herself may have known something, But I

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Speaker 3: don't think they had any reason to. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: think that Dennis went away to work, he came home

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Speaker 3: for dinner, they went on family vacations together. Like the

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Speaker 3: man that he presented himself to be to his family

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Speaker 3: was was a dad who arguably had some emotional outbursts,

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Speaker 3: had some fits of anger, but was also oh loving

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Speaker 3: dad and would take them to do really normal things together.

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Speaker 1: What's it like for you, and not just in this case,

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Speaker 1: but in others that you've covered, because you would have

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Speaker 1: to sift through quite a bit of actual evidence. I

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Speaker 1: mean crime scene photographs, looking through the actual interviews that

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Speaker 1: Dennis gave to police and listening to the things that

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Speaker 1: he said. And something that's different about the US as

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Speaker 1: opposed to hear is that cameras aren't generally allowed in

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Speaker 1: the courtroom here, and very rarely do we ever see

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Speaker 1: the person who's been charged with any crime.

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Speaker 2: We might see a judge in that, but never anyone else.

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Speaker 1: So to watch back Dennis raided describe his crimes in

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Speaker 1: such intimate detail, but in a way that seems like

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Speaker 1: he was just reading off a list. What's it like

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Speaker 1: for you to go through all of that? Does that

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Speaker 1: impact you at all? To expose yourself to all of

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Speaker 1: that evidence?

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's definitely disturbing, and I think that's I

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Speaker 3: think there's always safeguards that I take for myself that

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Speaker 3: I try to implement for my team. I'm not the

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Speaker 3: only one looking at all of this stuff. You know,

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Speaker 3: they're editors, there are producers, there are story folks, there

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Speaker 3: are assistant editors who are looking through this and having

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Speaker 3: to gather things. So it really is just just trying

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Speaker 3: to create an open environment to say, hey, if you

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Speaker 3: need to take a break, we'll take a break somebody

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Speaker 3: else can take over. It is impacting stuff, and I

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Speaker 3: think it's really important to set those limits, set those

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Speaker 3: boundaries to make everybody feel like they can take a

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Speaker 3: break if they need to, and for me myself to

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Speaker 3: sort of be able to walk away if I need

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Speaker 3: to and just say, hey, can you take over for

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Speaker 3: this for a little bit, and then I'll be able

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Speaker 3: to come back to it in a day or two.

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Speaker 1: What's it like for the people that you speak to?

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Speaker 1: I mean, in this instance, you speak to police officers

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Speaker 1: who were there and investigating at the time. You speak

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Speaker 1: to news anchors who were the recipients of some of

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Speaker 1: the letters that BTK wrote during his time taunting them

355
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Speaker 1: and telling them about other victims. How is the experience

356
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Speaker 1: for those people? Is they're a little bit of I mean,

357
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Speaker 1: Carrie often speaks about what a release it's been for

358
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Speaker 1: her to be able to just tell the story and

359
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Speaker 1: get it out. Do other people feel the same way

360
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Speaker 1: when they sit down and talk about these awful things

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Speaker 1: in times of their lives.

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Speaker 3: I think some people feel some relief, and I think

363
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Speaker 3: others because they've asked to do it for many years.

364
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Speaker 3: I think about Larry Hadiberg and I think about Susan

365
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Speaker 3: Peters and I really respect them because they spent their

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Speaker 3: life really or a large part of their professional career

367
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Speaker 3: talking about this man, and so I can imagine they

368
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Speaker 3: get to a point now where they're just like another

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Speaker 3: BTK dog. I don't know if I really want to

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Speaker 3: do this, and maybe they felt a little bit that way,

371
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Speaker 3: but they did specifically say that our perspective and sort

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Speaker 3: of telling this story really from Carrie's experience was something

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Speaker 3: that was really powerful to them and what really had

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Speaker 3: them on board to talk and tell their stories.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like you get to know the person

376
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Speaker 1: behind the crimes a little better after you finish a

377
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Speaker 1: documentary like this? Like do you have an understanding of

378
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Speaker 1: Dennis Raider's motivations or even just a way he acted

379
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Speaker 1: in the aftermath of being caught in that he was

380
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Speaker 1: very open about where all the evidence was, took police through,

381
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Speaker 1: it explained everything, Like do you get a better understanding

382
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Speaker 1: of who that man is after you make a documentary

383
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Speaker 1: like this?

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Speaker 3: I think I'd get a better understanding of the events

385
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Speaker 3: of the documentary, of the or of the story, or

386
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Speaker 3: of the crimes, of the impact that it had on

387
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Speaker 3: various different people. I don't know that I necessarily have

388
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Speaker 3: a better understanding of why a serial killer does what

389
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Speaker 3: they do, and I don't know that we'll ever have

390
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 3: a complete understanding. I mean, we can look at history,

391
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,639
Speaker 3: we can look sort of forensically at things, and we

392
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 3: can make guesses, but Dennis Raider has not really been

393
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 3: able to articulate in a way that I can understand

394
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Speaker 3: why he did the things that he did. So yes

395
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 3: and no, I mean I can understand the circumstances. I

396
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,640
Speaker 3: can understand the various different points, but not the motivation

397
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Speaker 3: behind it.

398
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Speaker 1: Kerrie talks about going in and sitting with her dad

399
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Speaker 1: when police essentially ask her to almost investigate another couple

400
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Speaker 1: of murders that they think may be connected to BTK,

401
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 1: and she says that he really made it like gas

402
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,160
Speaker 1: lighting for her, and that he was essentially saying she'd

403
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Speaker 1: brought this all on herself and she was the one

404
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,680
Speaker 1: responsible for how she felt in this situation. Does that

405
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Speaker 1: kind of go some way to really explaining who this

406
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,640
Speaker 1: man is? Once all of the family man, good citizen

407
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 1: stuff kind of falls away that realistically, there's a sociopath

408
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 1: kind of living behind that facade.

409
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Speaker 3: It's possible. Look, I'm not a psychiatrist. I can't exactly

410
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 3: diagnose Dennis Reader, but I think he's a master manipulator,

411
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Speaker 3: and I think that he as he has been at

412
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 3: least two different men with Carrie, and that's who she

413
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 3: experiences in the prison cell with him, is she sees

414
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 3: that he can flip between who she knows as her

415
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 3: father and who she hasn't spoken to in a very

416
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 3: long time, and so she's able to go back in

417
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Speaker 3: and see this man, this older man, sitting there and

418
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 3: she can recognize her father and him, and then she

419
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,959
Speaker 3: sees him sort of switch and turn into a killer.

420
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Speaker 3: And so I think that's a really interesting thing for

421
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 3: Carrie to experience, and I know she walked out of

422
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 3: that sort of having a little bit of an understanding

423
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Speaker 3: of how he could be these two different men while

424
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Speaker 3: she was growing up, and who he is now is

425
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 3: still representative of who he was back then.

426
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Speaker 1: What's really hard to watch is her talk through the

427
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 1: diary entries that he's made, essentially documenting all his crimes

428
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Speaker 1: and not just the murders, but you know, still people

429
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: and you know, thinking about stalking people, and her name

430
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: comes up in those diaries, that's really hard to watch.

431
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: Was that hard for you to listen to Carrie talk

432
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Speaker 1: about the fact that she may, as a child been

433
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Speaker 1: a victim of his also and just doesn't remember.

434
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's also a very new revelation for Carrie. I mean,

435
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 3: let's remember that she's had quite a few years to

436
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 3: process as much as she can. I'm not saying that

437
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 3: she's ever going to be fully able to process what

438
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 3: her father did, but she's had a number of years

439
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 3: to go through it, to process as much as she

440
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 3: can the murders that happened. And it's been a very

441
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 3: recent thing where she finds her name in these documents

442
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 3: in these you know, three spiral notebooks that her father kept,

443
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 3: and knows his code words and knows what he uses,

444
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 3: and knows how he writes and puts that together with

445
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,479
Speaker 3: sexual abuse, and I think it's been sort of tugging

446
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 3: at some of her memories and really she started to question,

447
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,679
Speaker 3: like did it happen? Did I forge get about it?

448
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 3: And I think she's been doing a lot of work

449
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 3: in that area.

450
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 1: It's really interesting the correspondence that he kept and sent

451
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,959
Speaker 1: out to various media outlets and police and there's this

452
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: one moment in the documentary where Carrie's mum, Dennis's wife

453
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: made a comment that, oh, he seems to write like you,

454
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 1: because they're broadcasting this on news services over and over

455
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,199
Speaker 1: and everyone's got an understanding of what this man is saying, Like,

456
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: it seems like there was this one moment where things

457
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 1: could have gone so differently had that been explored further.

458
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: But the police say they believe if she had pushed

459
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: that she would no longer be with us.

460
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I agree with that, and I think

461
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 3: it's something to say, you know, oh, it's writing looks

462
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 3: as like chicken scratchy as yours does. And another thing

463
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 3: to sort of start putting an actual investigative timeline together

464
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 3: charity in your husband's movements and where he is and

465
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 3: when these crimes are, how happening, and putting those two

466
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 3: things together was something that she just never did.

467
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: That is something really that Carrie does now though, right

468
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: so retrospectively, she's really going back in time to see

469
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: if she can find other victims.

470
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and she actually goes back. She's searching for

471
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 3: some kind of meaning, I think, or some sort of

472
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 3: reason for why he did what he did. And so

473
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 3: she does that she's done that many many years ago,

474
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 3: where she put a timeline together of his crimes and

475
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: then also from her memories like where she was, what

476
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 3: was happening, and points to certain events that were kind

477
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 3: of happening in her life, and also just recollections of

478
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 3: how her father was acting before and after and is

479
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 3: able to kind of piece together this emotional sort of

480
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 3: family timeline that really coincides with the crime timeline that

481
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 3: her father existed on.

482
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: Now, well, you were really successful in bringing in Carrie

483
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: and those other people to talk about this crime. It

484
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 1: does mention that none of the families of the victims

485
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: wanted to speak about this. What's that delicate process like

486
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: reaching out to people who've lost a loved one in

487
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: a tragic way such as this. It must be a

488
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: very tough thing to do to reach out to people

489
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 1: and ask if they want to speak about this kind

490
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: of thing.

491
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's tough, and it really is up to them

492
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 3: on whether or not they want to speak about this

493
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 3: or not. I mean, I think that people feel sometimes

494
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 3: that they do want to come forward and speak about

495
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 3: what they've been through. With a lot of the families,

496
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 3: I think of Dennis Reader's victims. They have spoken publicly

497
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 3: this in the film, some of the archive that we have,

498
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 3: and sometimes they feel like they just want to leave

499
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 3: this in the past and don't want to talk about

500
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 3: this anymore. So I think it's a very individual thing

501
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 3: for each and every person that participates in a documentary.

502
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: There is quite a bit of archival footage in this one,

503
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: and some of those people, as you mentioned, do speak.

504
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: How long does it take you to comb through archives

505
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 1: like that and find all of this and bring it

506
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: all together, because there is in this case in particular,

507
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: there was just such a volume of it, both from

508
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: Dennis Raider himself and from the news reports at the time.

509
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a lot. I mean, it's a lot to

510
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 3: come through the footage. It's also a lot to find

511
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 3: the footage, and you know there are sometimes you can

512
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: find it really easily, but it's a big process where

513
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 3: you're reaching out to new stations who were covering the

514
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 3: crimes when they were happening, then news stations who are

515
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 3: covering Dennis Raider's arrest in two thousand and five, and

516
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 3: so there's a lot more news coverage in two thousand

517
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 3: and five than there is necessarily from the seventies, eighties,

518
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 3: and nineties when these crimes were happening, and before even

519
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 3: they were linked together. So it's an incredibly large undertaking

520
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 3: to find all of this archive, and then a lot

521
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,719
Speaker 3: of work spent sort of calling through it and finding

522
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 3: those moments that really do help to sort of lift

523
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 3: our story up or speak to the moments in our

524
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 3: story when we're near that archival to kind of really

525
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 3: cut through and to the heart of the matter.

526
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy,

527
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with director sky Borgman about the infamous BTK killer.

528
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: Up next, Sky shares carries reaction to the intrusive way

529
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: that her father was discovered by the police, and we

530
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: dive into Skuy's other popular documentary, Non Number.

531
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: What do you think we learn from this documentary? Sky?

532
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: I feel like when we're watching true crime, we're seeking

533
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,479
Speaker 1: answers to something, and maybe it's more a sense of

534
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: security in that we're looking for ways to avoid ourselves

535
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: becoming victims in these situations. But what do you think

536
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: we learn from this documentary in particular, and maybe from

537
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: watching true crime in general.

538
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 3: I think you're totally right that in true crime in general,

539
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 3: we're looking for ways to protect ourselves, and especially because

540
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 3: a large percentage of the audiences are women, and we

541
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 3: have to be thinking all the time about how we

542
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 3: protect ourselves from this particular documentary. What I'd love for

543
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 3: people to walk away with is a sense of compassion,

544
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 3: I think, for in a sense of understanding that like

545
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 3: somebody can be a victim and they don't necessarily have

546
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 3: to be fit into this sort of victim shaped whole

547
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 3: I guess, or this victim shaped size, and that there

548
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 3: are many victims and the ripples are very far reaching,

549
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 3: and that Carrie herself was victimized by her dad simply

550
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 3: by being his daughter and by learning of the horrible

551
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 3: things that he did, and even Carrie's friends are victims,

552
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 3: and so it's sort of broadening our perspective on who's

553
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 3: affected and how people are affected, who are surrounding and

554
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 3: sort of in the hemisphere of any particular crime.

555
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: The think.

556
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: The thing that stands out about Dennis Ryder too is

557
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: that eventually, when he is found out, he's found out

558
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: in a way that is so intrusive to Carrie in

559
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: that police have acted accessed the DNA from her, perhapsmea

560
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: in order to link it to him. It feels incredibly

561
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: illegal to do that because Carrie is not the person

562
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: who is being investigated at this point, Like, does she

563
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: have any recourse to say, like this is, like, how

564
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: can you access my medical records in order for you

565
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: to you know, link me to my dad and to

566
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: these murders? Like that feels like the most intrusive way

567
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: to find DNA.

568
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 3: I think it is, too, And Carrie has moments of

569
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 3: feeling that way, and then she also has moments of

570
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 3: feeling that that really was such a critical element in

571
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 3: inconclusively or conclusively finding a link to Dennis Reader. And

572
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 3: so so she does have a bit of a push

573
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 3: and to pull when it comes to that. She's very

574
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 3: much behind law enforcement. She accepts the decision that they

575
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 3: made to go into to get her DNA, but it

576
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 3: is an intrusive act. So she has both of those

577
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 3: feelings simultaneously.

578
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: Scott, I'd like to switch over and talk a little

579
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: bit about Unknown Number. Now, what's the response been like

580
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: to that documentary? It was at one point the most

581
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: watched documentary here in Australia on Netflix, and the absolute

582
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: avalanche of opinion that came after that was pretty intense.

583
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: What was the experience like for you after that actually

584
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: went to air, because a lot of people have a

585
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: lot to say about Kendra in the aftermath of this.

586
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was really interesting because Unknown Number was certainly

587
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 3: a film that sparked a chord with a lot of people.

588
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 3: And I think the people understanding that a mother was

589
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 3: doing this to her daughter were just outraged, and they

590
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: should be outraged. I mean, it's an outrageous thing that

591
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 3: a mother could do this to her own daughter. So

592
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 3: I understand how people feel that way. I felt that

593
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 3: way as well, and so I think that all of

594
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 3: the different feelings out there that came from Unknown Number

595
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: are a good thing because part of what I love

596
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 3: to do in my work is start a conversation, and

597
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 3: there were so many people after that film talking about

598
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 3: that film and talking about many different elements of that film,

599
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 3: and so in so many regards, I think it's really

600
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 3: a great thing to get people talking.

601
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: Was it quite intentional from you in making Unknown Number

602
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: to have Kendra appear as if she was a concerned

603
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: mum to start with before it's revealed that she's the

604
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: one actually committing the crime. Because as you go into

605
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: that documentary. You see her as this kind of you know,

606
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: concerned mother who's worried about her daughter and who's doing

607
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: everything she can to help her discover who's behind this

608
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,479
Speaker 1: and what's happening, Like, was it intentional to kind of

609
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: put her forward before the sort of shock that she

610
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: was behind it in the same way that her own

611
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: friends and family were quite shocked by.

612
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 3: I mean, it really was led by Kendra's interview. You know,

613
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: when we sat down to talk to her, which was

614
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 3: very late in the process because she had been incarcerated

615
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 3: for a lot of the filming and the editing of

616
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 3: the project, and so we got an interview with her

617
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 3: very late, and we didn't exactly know what she was

618
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 3: going to say, and so we sat down and when

619
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: I was talking to her, it became very clear that

620
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 3: her stance is that she didn't start sending these messages

621
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 3: until much later. It's still unclear to me when she

622
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: sort of takes responsibility for starting those messages, but she

623
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 3: absolutely believes that she started them later. That's what she's

624
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 3: telling everybody at least. And so when she was talking

625
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 3: about the school and how they handled things and she

626
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 3: was living in that reality, it started becoming something that

627
00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 3: I thought was an interesting story point in this manipulation

628
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 3: that happens, especially from her in that story point was

629
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 3: keenly felt when it's revealed that she was the one

630
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 3: sending the text messages.

631
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: How do you convince someone like Kendra to sit down

632
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: and tell their story when like, it's a pretty terrible

633
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: thing that she's done and she has sort of taken

634
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: responsibility for it, maybe not completely, but how do you

635
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 1: convince someone to discuss their own and she like it

636
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: seems like such a shameful thing to have done, Like,

637
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: how do you convince her to talk about that?

638
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 3: You know, we started reaching out to Kendra's very early on,

639
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 3: and we were writing her letters. And I don't know

640
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 3: what it is ultimately or why ultimately Kendra decided to

641
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 3: be a part of the documentary. There's part of me

642
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 3: that thinks she wanted to tell her story from her mouth.

643
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 3: There's part of me that feels like she may have

644
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 3: done it for Lauren. I don't really know why she

645
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 3: ended up doing it. I know that we reached out

646
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 3: many times and and sort of said we wanted to

647
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 3: sit down and hear what her perspective was on everything

648
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: that happened, and I think perhaps that's what she wanted.

649
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,760
Speaker 1: So the moment in the documentary that I think many

650
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: of us talk about it, In.

651
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: Fact, I was just chatting to my sister about.

652
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: It the other day, was when the police come to

653
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: tell Lauren that it's her mum sending those messages, that

654
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: they don't separate them, and that she's there hugging and

655
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 1: touching her daughter like she's worried about her when she

656
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: was the one doing the crime. It's such a shocking

657
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: thing to see. Were you shocked by that when you

658
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: watch that?

659
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean watching that body cam footage is I

660
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: have so many different emotions when watching it. I look

661
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 3: at how Lauren's reacting. I look at how Kendra is

662
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 3: sort of clinging to Lauren. I look at how the

663
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 3: cops don't separate than so many different elements. When Sean

664
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 3: comes in, you know how he responds to the situation.

665
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 3: What's interesting to me is, like a lot of people said,

666
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 3: I don't understand why he wasn't more mad, or why

667
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 3: Lauren wasn't more mad, or why people weren't more mad.

668
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 3: And it's always curious to me because I don't know

669
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 3: that we have the right to tell people how they're

670
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 3: supposed to feel. And I can imagine in a place

671
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 3: of shock or learning something so outside of what you

672
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 3: think is normal, I don't know how you're supposed to react.

673
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 3: I don't know that anybody can prescribe how you're supposed

674
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 3: to react. So that body cam was was really fascinating,

675
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 3: and every single time I watched it, I would see

676
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 3: something different, and so I think, I think it's I

677
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 3: could go back and revisit it over and over and

678
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 3: over again and see something different.

679
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: Lauren's roll in this too, is really interesting because you

680
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: speak to her on two different occasions, and she seems

681
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: to be two different people in those interviews.

682
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 2: So the first one, she's obviously.

683
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: Still trying to process what her mom has done to

684
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: her in jail at that time, and so she's still

685
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: very much like, I love my mom and I want

686
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: to have a relationship with my mom and then let

687
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: her on down the track. She seems to have finally

688
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,959
Speaker 1: at least semi processed what's happened, and she's a little

689
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: bit stronger, and she's a little bit like, I don't

690
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: know if I can have a relationship with my mom.

691
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: It's really interesting to watch her sort of progress over

692
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 1: that time. Was that an interesting process for you watching

693
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: her kind of shift from one to the other.

694
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 3: It's definitely interesting. And I think you know she even

695
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 3: from the time when we did our first interview and

696
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 3: the first time I talked to her, which had been

697
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 3: months before that, you know, she's growing up and she's

698
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 3: hearing all the things that everybody is saying about her mom.

699
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 3: She's living with her dad, away from her mom. She

700
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 3: still got contact with her mom while she's in prison,

701
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,919
Speaker 3: but she's formulating all these thoughts and ideas and opinions,

702
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 3: and she's in a very complex place. I mean, she

703
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 3: wants her mother as any young woman would want her mother,

704
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 3: but she also understands that her mom did something to

705
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 3: her that it's up to Lauren whether or not she

706
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 3: can move into a relationship that's undoubtedly going to be

707
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 3: very different than what her relationship was before. But it

708
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 3: really is up to Lauren, and she gets to feel

709
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 3: however she wants to feel. She gets to love her

710
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 3: mom if she wants to, and she gets to never

711
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 3: see her again if she wants to. So that's completely

712
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 3: up to Lauren.

713
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: General was thinking about you guys making unknown number is

714
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: having to read through I don't know how many tens

715
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,919
Speaker 1: of thousands of text messages and then having to make

716
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 1: the decision about which ones you include and which ones

717
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: you don't. Was there a process for you guys behind

718
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: the scenes where you filtered out the ones that you

719
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: were and weren't going to use, because like the sheer

720
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: volume of content you had to choose from there would

721
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: have been immense.

722
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were a lot of text messages, and we

723
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 3: I mean a huge part of the process was sort

724
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 3: of cataloging the text messages when they happened, who they

725
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 3: were going to, who was receiving them, who wasn't, you know,

726
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 3: which ones were group messages, which ones weren't, and so

727
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 3: there was a lot of that, so we could kind

728
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 3: of see the story told in text messages, only you know,

729
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 3: in the progression of the text messages. And then there

730
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 3: were a lot of messages that were just that sort

731
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 3: of just tipped into being a little bit too graphic,

732
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 3: that felt gratuitous in a way that it was just say,

733
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 3: we just don't need to use those. Our stories are

734
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 3: coming our stories coming through with the messages that we

735
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 3: have in a perfectly fine way. And so there's always

736
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 3: that editing process that's happening, and especially that was happening.

737
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 3: And look if names were mentioned in the text messages,

738
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 3: that were people that we weren't talking to, like, we

739
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 3: were always very conscientious about that.

740
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,959
Speaker 1: Next, Sky talks about her conversation with Kendra and whether

741
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: Kendra feels remorse for the lives.

742
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 2: And relationships she ruined. What's wild I think too about

743
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 2: this story.

744
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 1: I mean, aside from the fact that Kendra did what

745
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: she did, is just how many people got caught up

746
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: in the web of it all. And I feel like

747
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 1: this is something that we're probably going to be dealing

748
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 1: with more and more as technology is so invasive. But

749
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: you see how this ruined relationships and lives of so

750
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: many young people involved in this. When you were talking

751
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: to Kendri, did she ever seem remorseful at all the

752
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: other people that got caught up in all of this?

753
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, she definitely seemed a little bit remorseful. But I mean,

754
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 3: Kendra is such an unreliable narrator. You know that you

755
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 3: don't know that she understands the full extent of what

756
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 3: she did or the impact of what she did and

757
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 3: how that had an impact on Owen and Chloe and

758
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 3: all of the people involved in this, I don't know

759
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 3: that she has a full realization of what that impact

760
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 3: truly was.

761
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: The impact then also extends not just to those kids,

762
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: with those kids' families as well, it seems like in

763
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: the documentary. And it's hard when you don't have that

764
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: full immersed backstory because Chloe's parents, for example, are really angry,

765
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: and they came across as pretty unfeeling and not understanding,

766
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: and I guess they've copped a little bit of, you know,

767
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: flack from how sort of mad they seemed about the

768
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,879
Speaker 1: whole thing. But it's like you have to take into

769
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: account so many different emotions when you're speaking to those people.

770
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 1: Do you ever speak to them in the aftermath of

771
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 1: their interviews and let them know like how people might

772
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: take some of the things that they've said.

773
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 3: I mean, look, I think the Wilsons are a perfect

774
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 3: example of that. I mean, they what they went through

775
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 3: made them mad, and they were angry at it, and

776
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 3: they wanted to talk about that, and so we gave

777
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 3: them this place to talk about that. And I think that,

778
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 3: you know, they I don't know, do they regret it,

779
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 3: I don't know, But I think that They were very

780
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,879
Speaker 3: much in this line of emotion, and what they said

781
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 3: in the documentary was very truthful.

782
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: Do you ever think about because they're people who tell

783
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 1: their stories and who then eventually do regret telling their stories.

784
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: Is that a tough thing to kind of juggle when

785
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 1: you are sitting people down to talk about some pretty

786
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 1: intimate times in their lives or some pretty shocking times

787
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: of their lives, and there's like a real responsibility to

788
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: make sure those people don't.

789
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: Regret what they say eventually.

790
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 3: I mean, there is a huge responsibility, and I think

791
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 3: the responsibility is what we all feel when we go

792
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 3: out and do these types of stories. And to me,

793
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 3: this responsibility lies and sort of giving people a place

794
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 3: to tell their story. I was very interested in hearing

795
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 3: from the young adults in this movie and giving them

796
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 3: their voice, and they were very committed to telling a

797
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 3: story about what cyber bullying is like, how it is

798
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 3: just such a crushing sort of feeling, and how it's

799
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 3: ever present and it's surrounding them. It's not like they

800
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 3: can go home from school and they're not bullied anymore.

801
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 3: It's like on their phone and it's just popping up,

802
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 3: popping up, popping up, popping up, and to really sort

803
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 3: of give them the place to tell the story of

804
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 3: how this happened. And for that, I think they did

805
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 3: an amazing job. I think they're really brave kids, and

806
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 3: I think that they told the story in their own words.

807
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: That's the thing too, when we talk about cyberbullying, often

808
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: it's a lot of adults having conversations up the chain.

809
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 1: We don't often hear unless it goes to the extreme extreme,

810
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: which in this case obviously it did. But we don't

811
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: often hear from the kids who are dealing with it

812
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: every single day.

813
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 3: No, we don't. And that's what I thought was so

814
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 3: amazing about these kids who were telling this story. And

815
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 3: it's from so many different perspective. It's about who would

816
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 3: actually happened to, which is Lauren and Owen, and these

817
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 3: messages were coming to them, but then sort of it

818
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 3: sort of seeps out and this target starts getting painted

819
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 3: on to Chloe, and so now it's affecting Chloe, and

820
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 3: then Chloe's circle of friends, and now it's affecting all

821
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 3: of her circle of friends, and then it's Owens starts

822
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 3: seeing somebody else and it goes to her, and then

823
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 3: you know, this very small community, is everybody's talking about it,

824
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 3: everybody's pointing fingers, and there's this unrest in this community,

825
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 3: and so it's seeping out into this community. And so

826
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 3: this one couple that these cyber messages were targeted at

827
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 3: all of a sudden is affecting everybody. And that's what happens.

828
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 3: And that's how this is so such an invasive kind

829
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 3: of bullying. And it really is the kids who wanted

830
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 3: to come forward and tell their story from their perspective.

831
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 3: And that's what I think is part of the most

832
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 3: amazing thing about this documentary.

833
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: How do you keep your own feelings from interfering in

834
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: the documentaries that you're making, Because I mean, we all

835
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: had thoughts and feelings after watching Unknown Number, but you're

836
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: in the midst of it and making it. And we

837
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: sometimes get this on this show too, when we allow

838
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 1: people to tell their stories and people say, who I

839
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: didn't you hold them more accountable for the things that

840
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 1: they said, And our response is always, well, it's not

841
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: our story to tell. We're just kind of the conduit

842
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: to bring you the story. So how do you keep

843
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: your feelings and emotions about these people's behavior out of

844
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: your narrative when you're trying to tell the story.

845
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, it's surrounding myself with a really great

846
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 3: team of people who are really good sounding boards, and

847
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 3: that exists sort of in the immediate circle where we're

848
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 3: really talking to each other about how this lands, this

849
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 3: is what's happening, how this is feeling, goes to the

850
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 3: production company level, goes to the network level, and so

851
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 3: it's really sort of asking people the tough questions and

852
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 3: asking ourselves the tough questions, and having a group around,

853
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 3: a really dedicated, solid team that has the best interest

854
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 3: of everybody at heart, and that also knows what kind

855
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 3: of context we need to put out there for telling

856
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 3: the hard truths and for putting the hard things forward.

857
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: Are you still in contact with people that you've made

858
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: these documentaries with?

859
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 3: I know.

860
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: I spoke to another true crime documentary maker a few

861
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: years ago, and he said that he's got long term

862
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 1: relationships with these people, and especially for those who've still

863
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: got ongoing cases, they often check in and check on progress.

864
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 1: Do you have long term relationships with the people you

865
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: end up making these stories about with.

866
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,479
Speaker 3: Some of them, yes, and with others no. I mean,

867
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 3: and again it really it's a really individual thing. I've

868
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 3: talked to somebody just the other week that I made

869
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 3: a film with years ago, and with other people, I

870
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 3: think it can be the end of the journey for them.

871
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 3: These shows, they're like, this is the last I'm going

872
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 3: to speak of it. This is my sort of putting

873
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 3: the lid on the box and me walking away. And so,

874
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 3: you know, sometimes I feel like that's that's how people respond,

875
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 3: and other times people have a very cathartic sort of

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00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 3: experience and want to maintain a relationship, and so both

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Speaker 3: of those things are true.

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00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 1: Thank you to Skuy for helping us tell this story.

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Speaker 1: You can stream My Father, The BTK Killer, and Unknown

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00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: Number The High School Catfish now on Netflix.

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00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 2: If you want to see images from this.

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00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 1: Story, head to our Instagram page at True Crime Conversations,

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00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: give us a follow and have a look at our case.

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00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 2: Explainers as well.

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Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please review our show on

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00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or leave a comment on Spotify. True Crime

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Speaker 1: Conversations is hosted by me Claire Murphy. Our senior producer

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00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: is Talie Blackman.

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Speaker 2: The group executive producer.

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00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 1: Is a Laria Brophy, and there's been audio designed by

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Speaker 1: Jacob Brown.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening.

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Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.

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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on