WEBVTT - Are We Done Being Bitchy About Lena Dunham? 0:00:08.234 --> 0:00:10.914 You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 0:00:15.874 --> 0:00:19.274 Welcome to mummya out loud where women come to debrief. 0:00:19.434 --> 0:00:22.874 I am Jesse Stevens, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Amelia Lester. 0:00:23.194 --> 0:00:25.874 And here is what's on our agenda for today, Monday, 0:00:26.034 --> 0:00:29.634 the fourteenth of July. Everyone's talking about Lena Dunham's new 0:00:29.674 --> 0:00:33.153 show Too Much, which dropped on Netflix last week. And 0:00:33.193 --> 0:00:36.674 the girl's creator is suddenly everywhere. So where has she been? 0:00:36.754 --> 0:00:39.913 And have we finally stopped being weird about Lena Dunham. 0:00:40.114 --> 0:00:43.193 We've also got some scurrellous gossip about a secret meeting 0:00:43.233 --> 0:00:46.353 between Teen Charles and Team Harry. I was eating this 0:00:46.394 --> 0:00:49.074 story up over the weekend. We want to know what 0:00:49.153 --> 0:00:51.314 it means and also who tipped off the paps? 0:00:51.754 --> 0:00:55.194 And you are not imagining it. Women really are posting 0:00:55.273 --> 0:00:58.594 less on social media and they're lurking more so are 0:00:58.634 --> 0:01:00.674 we heading towards posting zero? 0:01:01.034 --> 0:01:03.354 But first, in case you missed it, if you find 0:01:03.354 --> 0:01:06.234 yourself dreading mondays or finding them harder than any other 0:01:06.314 --> 0:01:08.834 day of the week, it could be because of this 0:01:08.874 --> 0:01:13.674 phenomenon called identity lag. Speaking to Mamma Mia, a psychologist 0:01:13.834 --> 0:01:17.994 named doctor Marni Lishman said, the shift from weekend you 0:01:18.154 --> 0:01:21.514 to work you can be very emotionally jarring. There is 0:01:21.554 --> 0:01:26.074 also a concept called role fragmentation, which, according to Stylist, 0:01:26.194 --> 0:01:29.914 is what happens when we spend the weekend exploring parts 0:01:29.914 --> 0:01:32.834 of ourselves that sort of go they're not expressed during 0:01:32.834 --> 0:01:34.834 the work week right, and then we turn up on 0:01:34.874 --> 0:01:38.034 Monday and we have to transform right into our LinkedIn 0:01:38.234 --> 0:01:42.794 selves immediately. There's this experience of sort of whiplash, Amelia, 0:01:43.034 --> 0:01:43.794 do you relate. 0:01:44.914 --> 0:01:48.154 I'm about to confess something which probably makes me sound horrible, 0:01:48.194 --> 0:01:51.354 but I actually look forward to Monday's. 0:01:50.994 --> 0:01:52.554 Because you like that identity more. 0:01:53.994 --> 0:01:57.554 I find it easier to inhabit. So I have two children, 0:01:57.594 --> 0:02:00.634 and on the weekend there's a lot of chaos and 0:02:00.674 --> 0:02:04.634 a lot of noise, and we don't have routines, whereas 0:02:04.714 --> 0:02:08.474 during the week I have routines, and I love that routine. 0:02:08.633 --> 0:02:11.194 And I'm often very tired on Sunday nights. And I 0:02:11.194 --> 0:02:15.394 remember when I had very little kids, people at work 0:02:15.394 --> 0:02:17.594 would say to me, have a good weekend, and I 0:02:17.634 --> 0:02:20.994 would hate them because I knew that my weekend might 0:02:21.034 --> 0:02:24.354 be fulfilling but was not going to be fun or easy, 0:02:24.914 --> 0:02:28.594 and now I feel that less. But even so, Monday 0:02:28.634 --> 0:02:33.233 brings routine and normalcy and talking to people who are 0:02:33.954 --> 0:02:36.034 rational and professional. 0:02:36.234 --> 0:02:39.714 But you work with mea the people, how about you. 0:02:40.634 --> 0:02:43.074 I really related to this because I think we all 0:02:43.114 --> 0:02:47.194 wear a mask at work, and we should in many ways, 0:02:47.194 --> 0:02:49.674 because you know, you shouldn't let it all hang out 0:02:49.714 --> 0:02:52.834 at work. Also for me, sometimes I take my medication 0:02:52.954 --> 0:02:55.594 during the work week, but then I didn't on this weekend, 0:02:56.354 --> 0:03:00.554 and I did feel quite different. I do inher habit too, 0:03:00.634 --> 0:03:05.034 sort of slightly different personas. But this morning I'm sort 0:03:05.034 --> 0:03:07.794 of fighting off a cold over the weekend, and I 0:03:07.834 --> 0:03:10.314 thought I didn't want to call in sick because I 0:03:10.394 --> 0:03:13.314 knew Holly was away and all of that stuff, and 0:03:13.394 --> 0:03:15.514 I wanted to do this show, but also I wanted 0:03:15.554 --> 0:03:18.594 to inhabit this persona. I knew I could stay home 0:03:19.114 --> 0:03:25.954 and continue with my weekend persona, which was unwashed hair. Yeah, 0:03:26.034 --> 0:03:28.914 but I wanted to lift and be in this persona. 0:03:28.994 --> 0:03:31.714 Don't you reckon when you turn up on Monday, though, 0:03:31.914 --> 0:03:33.394 I find it hard to get my head in the game, 0:03:33.434 --> 0:03:35.594 like my head somewhere else, at least for the first 0:03:35.994 --> 0:03:38.754 half a day. And then when you look around, there's 0:03:38.754 --> 0:03:41.514 a sense of everyone's sort of cose playing work. I 0:03:41.594 --> 0:03:43.434 found this. I remember when everyone came back to the 0:03:43.434 --> 0:03:45.994 office after COVID, and I think identity lag can be 0:03:46.074 --> 0:03:49.634 something that happens with significant life changes that you're still 0:03:49.634 --> 0:03:51.874 People came back to the office and they were still 0:03:51.914 --> 0:03:55.634 work from home identity, and you could see everyone kind 0:03:55.714 --> 0:04:00.074 of cose playing, sitting there, working meetings, using lingo to 0:04:00.074 --> 0:04:01.154 try and get themselves. 0:04:01.234 --> 0:04:03.434 Kind of a lot with the mask back back. 0:04:03.474 --> 0:04:07.434 After holidays or after Matt leave or any Yeah, starting 0:04:07.434 --> 0:04:09.674 a new job, I always find you just sort of codsplaying, 0:04:09.754 --> 0:04:12.034 trying to work out what your new identity is in 0:04:12.074 --> 0:04:12.794 that workplace. 0:04:12.954 --> 0:04:14.834 You could argue that the whole world's kind of going 0:04:14.874 --> 0:04:16.594 through identity like post pandemic. 0:04:17.034 --> 0:04:18.634 Yeah, I think it's still happening. 0:04:19.394 --> 0:04:22.434 I spent the weekend binging on all ten episodes of 0:04:22.514 --> 0:04:25.873 Lena Dunham's new Netflix series Too Much. She's the writer, 0:04:25.914 --> 0:04:28.753 of the creator, and the director. She also has a 0:04:29.034 --> 0:04:32.473 supporting role in it, playing the sister of the main character, 0:04:32.753 --> 0:04:35.313 but she's not the star of this show. The show 0:04:35.594 --> 0:04:39.914 is semi autobiographical. It's about an American woman in her 0:04:39.953 --> 0:04:42.633 thirties who leaves New York after a bad breakup to 0:04:42.714 --> 0:04:45.594 move to London where she meets this musician and they 0:04:45.594 --> 0:04:48.313 fall in love. It's a rom com. It's got a 0:04:48.354 --> 0:04:53.034 phenomenal supporting cast. The main character is played by an 0:04:53.073 --> 0:04:56.833 actress called Megan Stalta, who she plays Kayla in Hacks. 0:04:56.993 --> 0:05:00.794 She's kind of the assistant. She looks a lot like Lena, 0:05:00.914 --> 0:05:03.674 and she sort of acts a little bit like Hannah Horvath. 0:05:03.794 --> 0:05:04.474 Thin Girls. 0:05:05.193 --> 0:05:07.873 We're going to talk about too much on Friday Show, 0:05:08.154 --> 0:05:10.474 but today we wanted to talk about Lena. 0:05:11.113 --> 0:05:13.873 Girls was obviously her breakout hit. 0:05:13.953 --> 0:05:16.274 She was only twenty five when she wrote and directed 0:05:16.873 --> 0:05:20.633 and was the showrunner on that show, and she was 0:05:20.714 --> 0:05:24.034 everywhere for the six seasons. That Girls was around six 0:05:24.154 --> 0:05:26.433 or seven seasons. It was the sort of the mid 0:05:26.794 --> 0:05:30.313 twenty tens, and we just wanted to have a little 0:05:30.354 --> 0:05:34.034 bit of an explainer about her place in the culture 0:05:34.113 --> 0:05:36.513 and why. You might remember she seemed to be so 0:05:36.633 --> 0:05:40.674 controversial back then until she basically was so controversial she 0:05:40.953 --> 0:05:44.994 imploded and disappeared. She's done a lot of things since then, 0:05:45.034 --> 0:05:47.713 but she also did move to London about five years 0:05:47.714 --> 0:05:51.113 ago and met this musician and got married and he's 0:05:51.154 --> 0:05:53.753 the co creator of this show with her, and I 0:05:53.834 --> 0:05:56.153 just wanted to recap because there's two kinds of people, 0:05:56.193 --> 0:05:58.474 the ones who know all the law and who watch 0:05:58.553 --> 0:06:00.873 Girls and who are huge fans, and then there are 0:06:00.914 --> 0:06:03.034 those who didn't and who are a little bit foggy. 0:06:03.073 --> 0:06:04.873 They've heard of Lena Dunna, they've heard of Girls, but 0:06:04.914 --> 0:06:06.394 they don't really know the details. 0:06:06.553 --> 0:06:09.913 A lot of people have forgotten but know that Lena 0:06:09.993 --> 0:06:13.073 Dunham was somewhat exiled, whether that was like a self 0:06:13.113 --> 0:06:17.473 appointed exile or she was sort of passed out from Hollywood, 0:06:17.474 --> 0:06:19.914 But I don't think people can remember the point at 0:06:19.914 --> 0:06:22.074 which she was sort of what. 0:06:22.073 --> 0:06:24.753 Did she do and who was she? Amelia for those 0:06:24.794 --> 0:06:26.033 who were a bit vague. 0:06:26.354 --> 0:06:28.993 Yeah, So I actually remember the very first time I 0:06:29.073 --> 0:06:31.474 heard about Lena Dunham, and it was in twenty ten, 0:06:31.714 --> 0:06:34.633 and I was working at the New Yorker magazine and 0:06:35.034 --> 0:06:37.514 we had these ideas meetings every week and people would 0:06:37.513 --> 0:06:40.393 bring ideas about things that people were talking about, pitched 0:06:40.393 --> 0:06:44.753 them essentially as stories, and this extremely switched on, very 0:06:44.834 --> 0:06:48.273 very cool young man came to the meeting and he 0:06:48.313 --> 0:06:50.193 always had the best ideas, and he came to the meeting, 0:06:50.234 --> 0:06:53.873 and he said, there's this young director called Lena Dunham, 0:06:54.354 --> 0:06:57.953 and she has written and directed a movie called Tiny Furniture. 0:06:57.993 --> 0:06:59.553 And I thought, that is such a strange name for 0:06:59.633 --> 0:07:03.794 a movie, and because I am evidently not an especially 0:07:03.794 --> 0:07:07.073 good magazine editor, I passed on that story, which is 0:07:07.234 --> 0:07:09.354 sort of like when all those people passed on signing 0:07:09.354 --> 0:07:13.114 the Beatles when they shopping their first album around. Because 0:07:13.234 --> 0:07:16.434 very shortly after that she did become extremely famous, and 0:07:16.554 --> 0:07:19.833 it's easy to forget quite how exciting it felt to 0:07:19.953 --> 0:07:23.914 watch that ascent happen so Tiny Furniture it became very 0:07:23.953 --> 0:07:26.674 famous very quickly because, in addition to being a very 0:07:26.714 --> 0:07:28.914 interesting sort of movie about a woman coming of age 0:07:28.914 --> 0:07:31.154 in New York, there was a sex scene which took 0:07:31.194 --> 0:07:35.114 place in an abandoned tunnel in Brooklyn, Oh, And there 0:07:35.154 --> 0:07:37.674 was this frank depiction of sex that we had never 0:07:37.714 --> 0:07:42.234 seen before. I can't stress how revolutionary this was. It 0:07:42.274 --> 0:07:44.713 was a sex scene in an abandoned tunnel. It was 0:07:44.714 --> 0:07:48.794 not glamorous. The parts did not fit together like tetris, 0:07:48.794 --> 0:07:51.554 which is often how we see sex scenes and certainly 0:07:51.634 --> 0:07:54.674 used to see sex scenes on film. It felt very 0:07:54.874 --> 0:07:58.194 real and gritty and quite literally dirty because it was 0:07:58.234 --> 0:08:01.754 in an abandoned tunnel, and there was something incredibly exciting 0:08:01.794 --> 0:08:05.594 about seeing a young woman's vision of sex, which is 0:08:05.634 --> 0:08:10.674 sometimes profoundly and fulfilling. Sometimes it doesn't always in orgasms, 0:08:10.794 --> 0:08:12.914 and in fact sometimes the man can be a real 0:08:13.034 --> 0:08:15.234 jerk afterwards. And you hadn't really seen any of that 0:08:15.274 --> 0:08:18.114 from a woman's point of view. So if I sound excited, 0:08:18.154 --> 0:08:20.714 it was because it did feel like a new way 0:08:20.754 --> 0:08:25.514 of thinking about young woman. Yeah. And so then unsurprisingly 0:08:25.554 --> 0:08:28.194 shortly after that, she teamed up with Judd Apatow, who 0:08:28.314 --> 0:08:30.394 was everywhere at the time the director of The Forty 0:08:30.434 --> 0:08:33.713 year Old Virgin and This Is Forty and other movies 0:08:33.794 --> 0:08:36.434 like that, sort of you could argue taking that same 0:08:36.834 --> 0:08:39.754 no holds barred approach to men. He teamed up with 0:08:39.834 --> 0:08:42.634 Lena Dunham, who was doing it for women's lives, and 0:08:42.674 --> 0:08:45.754 then they made together Girls, which premiered, as you said me, 0:08:45.834 --> 0:08:47.754 and when she was just twenty five and twenty twelve, 0:08:48.354 --> 0:08:51.434 everyone called Girls the millennial generation's answer to Sex and 0:08:51.474 --> 0:08:53.514 the City. It was sort of everything Sex and the 0:08:53.554 --> 0:08:56.434 City was, and it was also about four women in 0:08:56.474 --> 0:08:59.994 New York. But these four women were really going through 0:09:00.074 --> 0:09:03.953 messy struggles. It wasn't glamorous. They were not drinking cosmos 0:09:03.994 --> 0:09:07.114 in bars. They were kind of like taking gin shops 0:09:07.434 --> 0:09:10.474 in their sort of like hoveled apartments in Brooklyn. It 0:09:10.514 --> 0:09:13.714 felt very different. It had lots of critical acclaim millions 0:09:13.714 --> 0:09:16.074 of viewers. The second season was greenlit before the first 0:09:16.154 --> 0:09:19.714 was even over. But then even as Girls was this 0:09:19.794 --> 0:09:22.914 huge touchstone moment. Over the course of the six seasons 0:09:22.914 --> 0:09:25.754 that it was on, I remember that you started to 0:09:25.874 --> 0:09:28.594 feel Lena Dunham slipped down the mountain, as we so 0:09:28.794 --> 0:09:30.874 often do the women, we build them up, and she 0:09:31.034 --> 0:09:34.394 became the voice of her generation. People often quote this 0:09:34.514 --> 0:09:37.194 line from the pilot of Girls, where her fictional character 0:09:37.234 --> 0:09:39.994 Hannah Horvar says, I may not be the voice of 0:09:40.114 --> 0:09:42.594 my generation, but I feel that I am a voice 0:09:42.594 --> 0:09:45.314 of a generation. But in fact, over time she became 0:09:45.314 --> 0:09:46.434 the voice of millennials. 0:09:47.114 --> 0:09:49.674 Can we talk about her body though? And I, you know, 0:09:49.754 --> 0:09:52.554 I just think we'd be remiss not to, because part 0:09:52.594 --> 0:09:55.274 of what was so transgressive about that show and about 0:09:55.274 --> 0:09:57.874 her starring in it, is that she didn't have the 0:09:57.954 --> 0:10:00.034 kind of body we were used to seeing, even in 0:10:00.034 --> 0:10:02.434 the sex scenes on sex and the City or on 0:10:02.514 --> 0:10:07.114 shows like Friends, the female lead was always a side 0:10:07.274 --> 0:10:10.794 zero and looked a certain way, and she didn't. And 0:10:11.274 --> 0:10:13.474 it's so funny looking back now because like a lot 0:10:13.474 --> 0:10:16.754 of people, I'm rewatching Girls and it's almost like when 0:10:16.754 --> 0:10:19.314 you rewatch Bridget Jones and all of the talk about 0:10:19.354 --> 0:10:23.514 how fat Rene Zellwiga was, and there was all this 0:10:23.634 --> 0:10:26.154 talk about Lena Dunnam and how brave she was or 0:10:26.194 --> 0:10:30.234 how shocking it was to see her having sex and 0:10:30.314 --> 0:10:33.314 not talking about her body. Her body was incidental and 0:10:33.354 --> 0:10:35.794 when you look back now, she'd be what a size 0:10:35.834 --> 0:10:36.914 ten to twelve maybe. 0:10:37.634 --> 0:10:40.074 Yeah. There was even an episode of Girls where she 0:10:40.474 --> 0:10:43.474 has this kind of sexy weekend with a stranger that 0:10:43.554 --> 0:10:47.154 she meets and he's very, very handsome. Yes, And there 0:10:47.234 --> 0:10:49.674 was this whole discourse because this is what we did 0:10:49.754 --> 0:10:52.874 back then, where everyone was saying that it was an 0:10:52.954 --> 0:10:56.794 unrealistic plot because he was too good looking for her. 0:10:57.114 --> 0:10:59.713 Yeah, she was this lightning rod in that she was 0:10:59.754 --> 0:11:04.074 being criticized by the far right for being what they 0:11:04.154 --> 0:11:08.234 saw as not conventionally attractive or to work or whatever. 0:11:08.754 --> 0:11:12.234 But then I think she pissed the left off to 0:11:12.314 --> 0:11:16.434 the same degree, and often because the show was criticized 0:11:16.554 --> 0:11:21.274 for not being diverse. It was very white. It wasn't 0:11:21.274 --> 0:11:25.114 maybe self aware about class that show. It wasn't possible 0:11:25.154 --> 0:11:26.434 for it to be all things. 0:11:26.154 --> 0:11:26.674 To all people. 0:11:26.754 --> 0:11:28.554 Yeah, shall we get into some of the controversies. I 0:11:28.594 --> 0:11:30.594 see some of the things that tipped her down the mountain, 0:11:30.594 --> 0:11:34.234 because there's a couple of interesting ones to revisit. I think. So, 0:11:34.274 --> 0:11:37.474 she had a huge memoir deal with Random House in 0:11:37.554 --> 0:11:40.634 twenty fourteen. Her memoir came out and they had paid 0:11:40.634 --> 0:11:42.594 three point five million dollars for it, So there was 0:11:42.594 --> 0:11:45.034 a lot of excitement about that when it came out. 0:11:45.674 --> 0:11:48.354 And in it she talks about being curious about her 0:11:48.394 --> 0:11:51.953 siblings Vagina when her sibling was a toddler. She talks 0:11:51.954 --> 0:11:54.554 about opening it and putting some stones in there, some 0:11:54.594 --> 0:11:57.154 pebbles in there, and also trying to kiss her sibling 0:11:57.194 --> 0:11:58.274 on the lips when she. 0:11:58.274 --> 0:12:01.354 Was changing her siblings naprsing, and she was My memory 0:12:01.394 --> 0:12:03.874 is that she was only seven. No, she was seven 0:12:03.914 --> 0:12:05.474 and her sibling was like three. 0:12:05.354 --> 0:12:09.114 A toddler. Yes, So the alt right, which was rising 0:12:09.154 --> 0:12:11.674 at the time, because we didn't even really have the 0:12:11.714 --> 0:12:14.074 phrase back then, I think we probably would have described 0:12:14.114 --> 0:12:17.674 them as sort of conservative provocateurs. But this rising alt 0:12:17.794 --> 0:12:22.194 right really seized on these anecdotes as evidence that Lena 0:12:22.274 --> 0:12:25.234 Dunham was a sexual predator. And it might sound a 0:12:25.234 --> 0:12:28.074 bit absurd now because her siblings spoke out and said 0:12:28.074 --> 0:12:30.434 this was not a problem and she was a toddler, 0:12:30.474 --> 0:12:33.034 but it made no difference. That was really the start 0:12:33.194 --> 0:12:34.314 of her fall from grace. 0:12:34.514 --> 0:12:36.754 You know, you would never put that in a book now, right, 0:12:36.914 --> 0:12:40.714 because it was those early years of when things were 0:12:40.714 --> 0:12:45.834 being weaponized offhanded comments, and Lena Dunham was very unfiltered. 0:12:45.874 --> 0:12:48.994 Her character was as well, but she was then called 0:12:48.994 --> 0:12:50.954 to sort of as the voice of her generation to 0:12:50.994 --> 0:12:53.954 speak about all these different things and girls was it 0:12:54.034 --> 0:12:56.074 was back when there was more of a monoculture. 0:12:56.274 --> 0:12:57.434 Everybody would watch it and. 0:12:57.394 --> 0:13:00.154 Every week there would be these big discussions, and it 0:13:00.194 --> 0:13:03.514 was also the rise of women's websites and blogs like Jezebel, 0:13:03.834 --> 0:13:06.794 so everything would be sort of picked apart every Now. 0:13:06.954 --> 0:13:09.674 There was this quote by Kevin Fallon where he said 0:13:09.714 --> 0:13:12.154 it was the discourse apocalypse, which I think is a 0:13:12.194 --> 0:13:14.634 really good description of that hot tame of that time, 0:13:14.714 --> 0:13:17.874 and the book I think fits into this. What's worth 0:13:17.914 --> 0:13:21.354 acknowledging is that it was absolute cultural saturation because while 0:13:21.354 --> 0:13:24.314 there was girls, there was also the memoir, the personal essay, 0:13:24.354 --> 0:13:27.234 which you know has disappeared people do not. 0:13:27.354 --> 0:13:29.914 Well, and that was part of her breakthrough, was that 0:13:30.194 --> 0:13:34.554 disclosure and women talking frankly about these most private things 0:13:35.034 --> 0:13:38.194 was seen as a liberation rather than sort of a liability. 0:13:38.314 --> 0:13:40.954 Yeah, and then there was Lenny Letter, There was Women 0:13:40.954 --> 0:13:43.114 of the Hour, there was interviews, there was social media 0:13:44.314 --> 0:13:45.674 early on everywhere. 0:13:45.674 --> 0:13:48.914 She's incredibly prolific, and it's interesting strife is set at 0:13:48.914 --> 0:13:51.914 this time too, very deliberately because it was the beginning. 0:13:52.034 --> 0:13:54.754 It was the rise of women's media and a lot 0:13:54.754 --> 0:13:57.554 of women's voices in the media, like Lena Dunham. But 0:13:57.594 --> 0:14:00.514 it was also the beginning of cancel culture, when the 0:14:00.674 --> 0:14:05.953 left started to be very censorious of particularly outspoken women. 0:14:06.194 --> 0:14:08.194 And let's get to that, but also the idea of 0:14:08.274 --> 0:14:10.514 so we've talked about why the right kind of seized 0:14:10.554 --> 0:14:12.994 on her. She was a messy woman who was also 0:14:13.034 --> 0:14:15.874 in their viewer, sexual predator. On the left, there was 0:14:15.914 --> 0:14:19.554 also this rising sort of criticism of her. You mentioned 0:14:19.594 --> 0:14:22.034 Lenny Letter, that was her newsletter, and that was also 0:14:22.194 --> 0:14:24.834 she has always been ahead of her time, podcasting Before 0:14:24.834 --> 0:14:28.234 a Time newsletter Right Before a Time, And in this newsletter, 0:14:28.314 --> 0:14:30.994 Lenny Letter, she wrote an essay once, a personal essay 0:14:31.114 --> 0:14:33.994 about going to the met Gala, and she wrote that 0:14:34.074 --> 0:14:36.794 she was sitting next to this football player called Odell 0:14:36.874 --> 0:14:39.794 Beckham Junior, and I'm just going to quote from it. 0:14:39.794 --> 0:14:41.994 It was like we were forced to be together. And 0:14:42.074 --> 0:14:45.314 he literally was scrolling Instagram rather than have to look 0:14:45.354 --> 0:14:47.874 at a woman in a bow tie because Lena had 0:14:47.874 --> 0:14:50.514 worn a bow tie to this met gala. I was like, 0:14:50.674 --> 0:14:53.754 this should be called the Metropolitan Museum of getting rejected 0:14:53.794 --> 0:14:56.594 by athletes. So the whole point was how fat and 0:14:56.714 --> 0:14:59.074 ugly she felt sitting next to Adell Beckham Junior, who 0:14:59.114 --> 0:15:01.514 was not interested in talking to her. This was at 0:15:01.554 --> 0:15:04.474 the time when intersectionality not a new concept, but one 0:15:04.474 --> 0:15:07.674 which was rising in value and in prominence. At the time, 0:15:08.034 --> 0:15:11.394 people felt like a white woman was saying that she 0:15:11.554 --> 0:15:15.314 was entitled to attention and affection from a black man, 0:15:15.714 --> 0:15:18.314 and that was a real lightning bolt moment. 0:15:18.554 --> 0:15:20.674 Do you think would you say, Amelia that it's when 0:15:20.794 --> 0:15:24.114 Because she's always done a lot of personal disclosure, and 0:15:24.434 --> 0:15:28.914 so her authors and artists since the beginning of creativity, 0:15:29.514 --> 0:15:32.074 but it was the time when the personal was being 0:15:32.194 --> 0:15:36.594 very politicized. So everything she would say personally, whether it 0:15:36.634 --> 0:15:40.514 was about playing doctors with her sibling or this personal 0:15:40.594 --> 0:15:43.634 experience of how she felt next to this man, suddenly 0:15:43.914 --> 0:15:48.074 everything was taken and overlaid with this political context that 0:15:48.194 --> 0:15:51.034 was often used to cancel her. 0:15:51.394 --> 0:15:54.154 Well, I'm quite literally political because the other thing I'm 0:15:54.194 --> 0:15:57.474 going to throw into this heady cauldron of cancel culture 0:15:57.594 --> 0:16:02.874 is Hillary Clinton. So twenty sixteen, she starts basically part 0:16:02.874 --> 0:16:06.594 time to full time campaigning for Hillary Clinton's presidential run. 0:16:07.154 --> 0:16:10.114 And there was that whole idea around them that this 0:16:10.234 --> 0:16:12.994 was going to be Hillary Clinton breaking the glass ceiling 0:16:13.474 --> 0:16:16.714 in her pants suit. Remember pants suit Nation. This idea 0:16:16.754 --> 0:16:19.674 of women felt jubilant that finally they were going to 0:16:19.674 --> 0:16:23.114 get a woman in the Oval office, and Lena really 0:16:23.154 --> 0:16:25.874 spent the year campaigning for her. Along the way, while 0:16:25.914 --> 0:16:27.714 she was on the campaign trail, she said that she 0:16:27.834 --> 0:16:30.634 was she had an abortion, another reason why the left 0:16:30.674 --> 0:16:32.594 did not love her, And of course the left didn't 0:16:32.594 --> 0:16:35.234 really love Hillary Clinton. She was a centrist candidate who 0:16:35.234 --> 0:16:37.194 happened to be running for the left. 0:16:37.434 --> 0:16:39.354 But I know what she was trying to say like 0:16:39.394 --> 0:16:43.554 that is just such an example of how the conversation changed. 0:16:43.594 --> 0:16:46.034 So as part of her podcast, she'd done an episode 0:16:46.074 --> 0:16:50.714 about abortion, and someone asked her in an interview, have 0:16:50.794 --> 0:16:53.074 you ever had an abortion? And she said, no, I 0:16:53.114 --> 0:16:55.834 wish I had. But taken out of context, what she 0:16:55.874 --> 0:16:59.314 was trying to say is she was trying to be silly. 0:16:59.354 --> 0:17:01.114 And you know, self, step. 0:17:00.954 --> 0:17:03.154 Think that what you're speaking to as well is that 0:17:03.234 --> 0:17:06.033 we didn't know how to take her because she was 0:17:06.114 --> 0:17:13.194 this character, this classic to uncouple Hannah Horvath from Lena Dunham, 0:17:13.194 --> 0:17:16.754 I still think we don't quite know how to do that, and. 0:17:16.234 --> 0:17:19.874 That's why she's cast someone else as in this new exactly. 0:17:20.514 --> 0:17:24.634 And I think that activists now almost have to adopt 0:17:24.714 --> 0:17:27.994 this earnest tone because if you are an activist, if 0:17:27.994 --> 0:17:29.954 you have something very serious to say about the world, 0:17:29.994 --> 0:17:33.794 you can never joke. So she would clumsily say things, 0:17:33.914 --> 0:17:35.434 she would joke about something that. 0:17:35.434 --> 0:17:37.194 Was very seriously because she's very funny. 0:17:37.234 --> 0:17:39.594 She's very funny, and girl was very funny, brilliant writer, 0:17:39.794 --> 0:17:41.994 and so she'd say things tongue in cheek, even on 0:17:42.114 --> 0:17:44.954 girls that were then weaponized because we were like, well, 0:17:44.994 --> 0:17:47.194 what are you about? Are you a feminist or are 0:17:47.234 --> 0:17:50.954 you And it's how feminism became this like stick to 0:17:50.994 --> 0:17:55.114 beat women with, because sometimes she did and she did 0:17:55.154 --> 0:17:56.994 make real mistakes. Like I think it was just after 0:17:57.034 --> 0:17:59.994 the Me Too movement when someone was accused. 0:17:59.514 --> 0:18:02.354 Of Yeah, we should just talk briefly about that, because 0:18:02.394 --> 0:18:05.114 that was I think the fine or nail in the 0:18:05.154 --> 0:18:08.274 coffin Fellina Dunham. The left and the right just couldn't 0:18:08.274 --> 0:18:12.114 handle her anymore. So what happened was in November twenty seventeen. 0:18:12.314 --> 0:18:15.554 So yeah, during the metre movement, there was a girl's 0:18:15.594 --> 0:18:19.034 writer named Mary Miller a man, and an actress named 0:18:19.074 --> 0:18:22.553 Aurora Perry No accused him of sexually assaulting her. This 0:18:22.674 --> 0:18:24.994 was back in twenty twelve, but the allegation came out 0:18:25.034 --> 0:18:28.833 in November twenty seventeen. Dunham responded to the accusations and 0:18:28.834 --> 0:18:31.754 she said, Nope, I know him. He did not do this. 0:18:31.954 --> 0:18:34.074 She said. While our first instinct is to listen to 0:18:34.154 --> 0:18:38.874 every woman's story, our insider knowledge makes us confident that 0:18:38.914 --> 0:18:41.354 this accusation is one of the three percent of assault 0:18:41.394 --> 0:18:44.874 cases that are misreported every year. Now I remember reading 0:18:44.874 --> 0:18:46.954 that on Instagram, do you I do I think. I 0:18:46.994 --> 0:18:49.594 talked about it at the time, and I was devastated 0:18:50.034 --> 0:18:53.474 because it just felt like a real betrayal. And I 0:18:53.514 --> 0:18:56.674 don't identify with either the far left or the far right, 0:18:57.114 --> 0:18:59.674 but to me, she lost me in that moment. I 0:18:59.754 --> 0:19:02.194 have to appear right. She lost me and I was 0:19:02.194 --> 0:19:04.313 a huge fan of hers. So then after that she 0:19:04.394 --> 0:19:08.034 went very much to ground. She basically left public eye. 0:19:08.274 --> 0:19:10.874 There were some health reasons for that. She had a hysterectomy, 0:19:10.954 --> 0:19:14.273 Judah endometriosis, and she wrote about that very beautiful lest 0:19:14.794 --> 0:19:18.034 for US Vogue. She also was diagnosed with Ella's dwan 0:19:18.074 --> 0:19:21.874 Lows syndrome, and so she does now identify and describe 0:19:21.874 --> 0:19:24.914 herself as chronically ill. She moved to London in twenty 0:19:24.954 --> 0:19:27.394 twenty one. She went to rehab. She went to rehab. 0:19:27.434 --> 0:19:31.634 She was addicted to prescription medication and she broke up 0:19:31.674 --> 0:19:34.634 a long term relationship through almost the entirety of girls. 0:19:34.674 --> 0:19:36.593 She was dating Jack Antonoff. 0:19:36.034 --> 0:19:42.754 Who's Taylor Swift's co collaborator, Lord's collaborator Margaret Qually. He's 0:19:42.794 --> 0:19:46.634 married to Margaret Qually, and that was a very defining 0:19:46.954 --> 0:19:49.914 relationship obviously in her life at a very defining time. 0:19:49.954 --> 0:19:51.553 In her life, and. 0:19:51.674 --> 0:19:55.553 There are a lot of biographical similarities. There's a character 0:19:55.634 --> 0:19:59.034 very similar to him in Too Much, which is which 0:19:59.074 --> 0:20:01.994 is also very interesting. But she's also very good friends 0:20:01.994 --> 0:20:04.914 with Taylor Swift, who she no doubt met through her 0:20:04.954 --> 0:20:07.354 relationship with Jack Antonoff and who she remains friends with 0:20:07.714 --> 0:20:10.154 to this day. Taylor Swift was actually at her wedding too. 0:20:10.314 --> 0:20:13.234 She was a brise man, yeah to this musician Loue Felder, 0:20:13.274 --> 0:20:16.434 who's her co creator on Too Much. And she was 0:20:16.514 --> 0:20:19.793 part of remember that whole squad, Yeah, with the nineteen 0:20:19.874 --> 0:20:23.434 eighty nine tour. It was all of these supermodels and 0:20:23.554 --> 0:20:26.274 Lena Dunham And she spoke afterwards, even though she's still 0:20:26.314 --> 0:20:29.553 friends with Taylor, how that wasn't very good for her 0:20:30.194 --> 0:20:30.834 self esteem. 0:20:30.874 --> 0:20:33.034 Oh, it wasn't very good for Taylor's self esteem either. 0:20:33.234 --> 0:20:35.594 They both suffered from eating disorders around that time that 0:20:35.634 --> 0:20:39.714 they've spoken about. She moved to London. She did make 0:20:39.794 --> 0:20:43.354 some films, none of them really hit. And now there's 0:20:43.434 --> 0:20:44.234