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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to mummya out loud where women come to debrief.

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Speaker 2: I am Jesse Stevens, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Amelia Lester.

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Speaker 2: And here is what's on our agenda for today, Monday,

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Speaker 2: the fourteenth of July. Everyone's talking about Lena Dunham's new

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Speaker 2: show Too Much, which dropped on Netflix last week. And

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Speaker 2: the girl's creator is suddenly everywhere. So where has she been?

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Speaker 2: And have we finally stopped being weird about Lena Dunham.

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Speaker 3: We've also got some scurrellous gossip about a secret meeting

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Speaker 3: between Teen Charles and Team Harry. I was eating this

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Speaker 3: story up over the weekend. We want to know what

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Speaker 3: it means and also who tipped off the paps?

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Speaker 1: And you are not imagining it. Women really are posting

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Speaker 1: less on social media and they're lurking more so are

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Speaker 1: we heading towards posting zero?

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Speaker 2: But first, in case you missed it, if you find

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Speaker 2: yourself dreading mondays or finding them harder than any other

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Speaker 2: day of the week, it could be because of this

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Speaker 2: phenomenon called identity lag. Speaking to Mamma Mia, a psychologist

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Speaker 2: named doctor Marni Lishman said, the shift from weekend you

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Speaker 2: to work you can be very emotionally jarring. There is

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Speaker 2: also a concept called role fragmentation, which, according to Stylist,

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Speaker 2: is what happens when we spend the weekend exploring parts

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Speaker 2: of ourselves that sort of go they're not expressed during

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Speaker 2: the work week right, and then we turn up on

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Speaker 2: Monday and we have to transform right into our LinkedIn

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Speaker 2: selves immediately. There's this experience of sort of whiplash, Amelia,

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Speaker 2: do you relate.

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Speaker 1: I'm about to confess something which probably makes me sound horrible,

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Speaker 1: but I actually look forward to Monday's.

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Speaker 2: Because you like that identity more.

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Speaker 1: I find it easier to inhabit. So I have two children,

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Speaker 1: and on the weekend there's a lot of chaos and

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Speaker 1: a lot of noise, and we don't have routines, whereas

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Speaker 1: during the week I have routines, and I love that routine.

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Speaker 1: And I'm often very tired on Sunday nights. And I

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Speaker 1: remember when I had very little kids, people at work

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Speaker 1: would say to me, have a good weekend, and I

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Speaker 1: would hate them because I knew that my weekend might

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Speaker 1: be fulfilling but was not going to be fun or easy,

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Speaker 1: and now I feel that less. But even so, Monday

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Speaker 1: brings routine and normalcy and talking to people who are

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Speaker 1: rational and professional.

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Speaker 2: But you work with mea the people, how about you.

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Speaker 3: I really related to this because I think we all

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Speaker 3: wear a mask at work, and we should in many ways,

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Speaker 3: because you know, you shouldn't let it all hang out

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Speaker 3: at work. Also for me, sometimes I take my medication

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Speaker 3: during the work week, but then I didn't on this weekend,

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Speaker 3: and I did feel quite different. I do inher habit too,

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Speaker 3: sort of slightly different personas. But this morning I'm sort

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Speaker 3: of fighting off a cold over the weekend, and I

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Speaker 3: thought I didn't want to call in sick because I

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Speaker 3: knew Holly was away and all of that stuff, and

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Speaker 3: I wanted to do this show, but also I wanted

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Speaker 3: to inhabit this persona. I knew I could stay home

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Speaker 3: and continue with my weekend persona, which was unwashed hair. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but I wanted to lift and be in this persona.

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Speaker 2: Don't you reckon when you turn up on Monday, though,

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Speaker 2: I find it hard to get my head in the game,

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Speaker 2: like my head somewhere else, at least for the first

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Speaker 2: half a day. And then when you look around, there's

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Speaker 2: a sense of everyone's sort of cose playing work. I

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Speaker 2: found this. I remember when everyone came back to the

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Speaker 2: office after COVID, and I think identity lag can be

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Speaker 2: something that happens with significant life changes that you're still

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Speaker 2: People came back to the office and they were still

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Speaker 2: work from home identity, and you could see everyone kind

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Speaker 2: of cose playing, sitting there, working meetings, using lingo to

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Speaker 2: try and get themselves.

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Speaker 1: Kind of a lot with the mask back back.

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Speaker 3: After holidays or after Matt leave or any Yeah, starting

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Speaker 3: a new job, I always find you just sort of codsplaying,

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Speaker 3: trying to work out what your new identity is in

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Speaker 3: that workplace.

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Speaker 1: You could argue that the whole world's kind of going

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Speaker 1: through identity like post pandemic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's still happening.

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Speaker 3: I spent the weekend binging on all ten episodes of

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Speaker 3: Lena Dunham's new Netflix series Too Much. She's the writer,

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Speaker 3: of the creator, and the director. She also has a

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Speaker 3: supporting role in it, playing the sister of the main character,

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Speaker 3: but she's not the star of this show. The show

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Speaker 3: is semi autobiographical. It's about an American woman in her

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Speaker 3: thirties who leaves New York after a bad breakup to

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Speaker 3: move to London where she meets this musician and they

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Speaker 3: fall in love. It's a rom com. It's got a

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Speaker 3: phenomenal supporting cast. The main character is played by an

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Speaker 3: actress called Megan Stalta, who she plays Kayla in Hacks.

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Speaker 3: She's kind of the assistant. She looks a lot like Lena,

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Speaker 3: and she sort of acts a little bit like Hannah Horvath.

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Speaker 1: Thin Girls.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about too much on Friday Show,

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Speaker 3: but today we wanted to talk about Lena.

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Speaker 1: Girls was obviously her breakout hit.

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Speaker 3: She was only twenty five when she wrote and directed

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Speaker 3: and was the showrunner on that show, and she was

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Speaker 3: everywhere for the six seasons. That Girls was around six

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Speaker 3: or seven seasons. It was the sort of the mid

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Speaker 3: twenty tens, and we just wanted to have a little

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Speaker 3: bit of an explainer about her place in the culture

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Speaker 3: and why. You might remember she seemed to be so

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Speaker 3: controversial back then until she basically was so controversial she

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Speaker 3: imploded and disappeared. She's done a lot of things since then,

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Speaker 3: but she also did move to London about five years

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Speaker 3: ago and met this musician and got married and he's

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Speaker 3: the co creator of this show with her, and I

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Speaker 3: just wanted to recap because there's two kinds of people,

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Speaker 3: the ones who know all the law and who watch

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Speaker 3: Girls and who are huge fans, and then there are

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Speaker 3: those who didn't and who are a little bit foggy.

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Speaker 3: They've heard of Lena Dunna, they've heard of Girls, but

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Speaker 3: they don't really know the details.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people have forgotten but know that Lena

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Speaker 2: Dunham was somewhat exiled, whether that was like a self

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Speaker 2: appointed exile or she was sort of passed out from Hollywood,

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Speaker 2: But I don't think people can remember the point at

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Speaker 2: which she was sort of what.

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Speaker 3: Did she do and who was she? Amelia for those

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Speaker 3: who were a bit vague.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I actually remember the very first time I

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Speaker 1: heard about Lena Dunham, and it was in twenty ten,

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Speaker 1: and I was working at the New Yorker magazine and

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Speaker 1: we had these ideas meetings every week and people would

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Speaker 1: bring ideas about things that people were talking about, pitched

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Speaker 1: them essentially as stories, and this extremely switched on, very

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Speaker 1: very cool young man came to the meeting and he

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Speaker 1: always had the best ideas, and he came to the meeting,

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Speaker 1: and he said, there's this young director called Lena Dunham,

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Speaker 1: and she has written and directed a movie called Tiny Furniture.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, that is such a strange name for

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Speaker 1: a movie, and because I am evidently not an especially

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Speaker 1: good magazine editor, I passed on that story, which is

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Speaker 1: sort of like when all those people passed on signing

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Speaker 1: the Beatles when they shopping their first album around. Because

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Speaker 1: very shortly after that she did become extremely famous, and

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Speaker 1: it's easy to forget quite how exciting it felt to

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Speaker 1: watch that ascent happen so Tiny Furniture it became very

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Speaker 1: famous very quickly because, in addition to being a very

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Speaker 1: interesting sort of movie about a woman coming of age

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Speaker 1: in New York, there was a sex scene which took

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Speaker 1: place in an abandoned tunnel in Brooklyn, Oh, And there

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Speaker 1: was this frank depiction of sex that we had never

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Speaker 1: seen before. I can't stress how revolutionary this was. It

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Speaker 1: was a sex scene in an abandoned tunnel. It was

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Speaker 1: not glamorous. The parts did not fit together like tetris,

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Speaker 1: which is often how we see sex scenes and certainly

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Speaker 1: used to see sex scenes on film. It felt very

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Speaker 1: real and gritty and quite literally dirty because it was

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Speaker 1: in an abandoned tunnel, and there was something incredibly exciting

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Speaker 1: about seeing a young woman's vision of sex, which is

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Speaker 1: sometimes profoundly and fulfilling. Sometimes it doesn't always in orgasms,

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Speaker 1: and in fact sometimes the man can be a real

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Speaker 1: jerk afterwards. And you hadn't really seen any of that

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Speaker 1: from a woman's point of view. So if I sound excited,

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Speaker 1: it was because it did feel like a new way

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Speaker 1: of thinking about young woman. Yeah. And so then unsurprisingly

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Speaker 1: shortly after that, she teamed up with Judd Apatow, who

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Speaker 1: was everywhere at the time the director of The Forty

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Speaker 1: year Old Virgin and This Is Forty and other movies

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Speaker 1: like that, sort of you could argue taking that same

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Speaker 1: no holds barred approach to men. He teamed up with

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Speaker 1: Lena Dunham, who was doing it for women's lives, and

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Speaker 1: then they made together Girls, which premiered, as you said me,

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Speaker 1: and when she was just twenty five and twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: everyone called Girls the millennial generation's answer to Sex and

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Speaker 1: the City. It was sort of everything Sex and the

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Speaker 1: City was, and it was also about four women in

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Speaker 1: New York. But these four women were really going through

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Speaker 1: messy struggles. It wasn't glamorous. They were not drinking cosmos

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Speaker 1: in bars. They were kind of like taking gin shops

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Speaker 1: in their sort of like hoveled apartments in Brooklyn. It

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Speaker 1: felt very different. It had lots of critical acclaim millions

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Speaker 1: of viewers. The second season was greenlit before the first

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Speaker 1: was even over. But then even as Girls was this

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Speaker 1: huge touchstone moment. Over the course of the six seasons

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Speaker 1: that it was on, I remember that you started to

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Speaker 1: feel Lena Dunham slipped down the mountain, as we so

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Speaker 1: often do the women, we build them up, and she

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Speaker 1: became the voice of her generation. People often quote this

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Speaker 1: line from the pilot of Girls, where her fictional character

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Speaker 1: Hannah Horvar says, I may not be the voice of

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Speaker 1: my generation, but I feel that I am a voice

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Speaker 1: of a generation. But in fact, over time she became

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Speaker 1: the voice of millennials.

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Speaker 3: Can we talk about her body though? And I, you know,

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Speaker 3: I just think we'd be remiss not to, because part

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Speaker 3: of what was so transgressive about that show and about

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Speaker 3: her starring in it, is that she didn't have the

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Speaker 3: kind of body we were used to seeing, even in

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Speaker 3: the sex scenes on sex and the City or on

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Speaker 3: shows like Friends, the female lead was always a side

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Speaker 3: zero and looked a certain way, and she didn't. And

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Speaker 3: it's so funny looking back now because like a lot

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Speaker 3: of people, I'm rewatching Girls and it's almost like when

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Speaker 3: you rewatch Bridget Jones and all of the talk about

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Speaker 3: how fat Rene Zellwiga was, and there was all this

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Speaker 3: talk about Lena Dunnam and how brave she was or

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Speaker 3: how shocking it was to see her having sex and

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Speaker 3: not talking about her body. Her body was incidental and

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Speaker 3: when you look back now, she'd be what a size

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Speaker 3: ten to twelve maybe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. There was even an episode of Girls where she

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Speaker 1: has this kind of sexy weekend with a stranger that

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Speaker 1: she meets and he's very, very handsome. Yes, And there

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Speaker 1: was this whole discourse because this is what we did

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Speaker 1: back then, where everyone was saying that it was an

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Speaker 1: unrealistic plot because he was too good looking for her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was this lightning rod in that she was

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Speaker 2: being criticized by the far right for being what they

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Speaker 2: saw as not conventionally attractive or to work or whatever.

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Speaker 2: But then I think she pissed the left off to

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Speaker 2: the same degree, and often because the show was criticized

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Speaker 2: for not being diverse. It was very white. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: maybe self aware about class that show. It wasn't possible

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Speaker 2: for it to be all things.

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Speaker 3: To all people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, shall we get into some of the controversies. I

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Speaker 1: see some of the things that tipped her down the mountain,

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Speaker 1: because there's a couple of interesting ones to revisit. I think. So,

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Speaker 1: she had a huge memoir deal with Random House in

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Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. Her memoir came out and they had paid

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Speaker 1: three point five million dollars for it, So there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of excitement about that when it came out.

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Speaker 1: And in it she talks about being curious about her

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Speaker 1: siblings Vagina when her sibling was a toddler. She talks

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Speaker 1: about opening it and putting some stones in there, some

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Speaker 1: pebbles in there, and also trying to kiss her sibling

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Speaker 1: on the lips when she.

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Speaker 3: Was changing her siblings naprsing, and she was My memory

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Speaker 3: is that she was only seven. No, she was seven

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Speaker 3: and her sibling was like three.

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Speaker 1: A toddler. Yes, So the alt right, which was rising

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Speaker 1: at the time, because we didn't even really have the

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Speaker 1: phrase back then, I think we probably would have described

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Speaker 1: them as sort of conservative provocateurs. But this rising alt

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Speaker 1: right really seized on these anecdotes as evidence that Lena

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Speaker 1: Dunham was a sexual predator. And it might sound a

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Speaker 1: bit absurd now because her siblings spoke out and said

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Speaker 1: this was not a problem and she was a toddler,

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Speaker 1: but it made no difference. That was really the start

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Speaker 1: of her fall from grace.

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Speaker 3: You know, you would never put that in a book now, right,

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Speaker 3: because it was those early years of when things were

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Speaker 3: being weaponized offhanded comments, and Lena Dunham was very unfiltered.

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Speaker 3: Her character was as well, but she was then called

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Speaker 3: to sort of as the voice of her generation to

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Speaker 3: speak about all these different things and girls was it

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Speaker 3: was back when there was more of a monoculture.

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Speaker 1: Everybody would watch it and.

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Speaker 3: Every week there would be these big discussions, and it

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Speaker 3: was also the rise of women's websites and blogs like Jezebel,

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Speaker 3: so everything would be sort of picked apart every Now.

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Speaker 2: There was this quote by Kevin Fallon where he said

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Speaker 2: it was the discourse apocalypse, which I think is a

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Speaker 2: really good description of that hot tame of that time,

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Speaker 2: and the book I think fits into this. What's worth

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Speaker 2: acknowledging is that it was absolute cultural saturation because while

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Speaker 2: there was girls, there was also the memoir, the personal essay,

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Speaker 2: which you know has disappeared people do not.

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Speaker 1: Well, and that was part of her breakthrough, was that

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Speaker 1: disclosure and women talking frankly about these most private things

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Speaker 1: was seen as a liberation rather than sort of a liability.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there was Lenny Letter, There was Women

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Speaker 2: of the Hour, there was interviews, there was social media

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Speaker 2: early on everywhere.

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Speaker 3: She's incredibly prolific, and it's interesting strife is set at

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Speaker 3: this time too, very deliberately because it was the beginning.

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Speaker 3: It was the rise of women's media and a lot

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Speaker 3: of women's voices in the media, like Lena Dunham. But

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Speaker 3: it was also the beginning of cancel culture, when the

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Speaker 3: left started to be very censorious of particularly outspoken women.

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Speaker 1: And let's get to that, but also the idea of

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Speaker 1: so we've talked about why the right kind of seized

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Speaker 1: on her. She was a messy woman who was also

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Speaker 1: in their viewer, sexual predator. On the left, there was

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Speaker 1: also this rising sort of criticism of her. You mentioned

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Speaker 1: Lenny Letter, that was her newsletter, and that was also

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Speaker 1: she has always been ahead of her time, podcasting Before

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Speaker 1: a Time newsletter Right Before a Time, And in this newsletter,

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Speaker 1: Lenny Letter, she wrote an essay once, a personal essay

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Speaker 1: about going to the met Gala, and she wrote that

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Speaker 1: she was sitting next to this football player called Odell

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Speaker 1: Beckham Junior, and I'm just going to quote from it.

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Speaker 1: It was like we were forced to be together. And

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Speaker 1: he literally was scrolling Instagram rather than have to look

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Speaker 1: at a woman in a bow tie because Lena had

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Speaker 1: worn a bow tie to this met gala. I was like,

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Speaker 1: this should be called the Metropolitan Museum of getting rejected

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Speaker 1: by athletes. So the whole point was how fat and

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Speaker 1: ugly she felt sitting next to Adell Beckham Junior, who

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Speaker 1: was not interested in talking to her. This was at

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Speaker 1: the time when intersectionality not a new concept, but one

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Speaker 1: which was rising in value and in prominence. At the time,

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Speaker 1: people felt like a white woman was saying that she

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Speaker 1: was entitled to attention and affection from a black man,

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Speaker 1: and that was a real lightning bolt moment.

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Speaker 3: Do you think would you say, Amelia that it's when

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Speaker 3: Because she's always done a lot of personal disclosure, and

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Speaker 3: so her authors and artists since the beginning of creativity,

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Speaker 3: but it was the time when the personal was being

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Speaker 3: very politicized. So everything she would say personally, whether it

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Speaker 3: was about playing doctors with her sibling or this personal

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Speaker 3: experience of how she felt next to this man, suddenly

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Speaker 3: everything was taken and overlaid with this political context that

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Speaker 3: was often used to cancel her.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm quite literally political because the other thing I'm

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Speaker 1: going to throw into this heady cauldron of cancel culture

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Speaker 1: is Hillary Clinton. So twenty sixteen, she starts basically part

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Speaker 1: time to full time campaigning for Hillary Clinton's presidential run.

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Speaker 1: And there was that whole idea around them that this

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Speaker 1: was going to be Hillary Clinton breaking the glass ceiling

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Speaker 1: in her pants suit. Remember pants suit Nation. This idea

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Speaker 1: of women felt jubilant that finally they were going to

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Speaker 1: get a woman in the Oval office, and Lena really

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Speaker 1: spent the year campaigning for her. Along the way, while

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Speaker 1: she was on the campaign trail, she said that she

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Speaker 1: was she had an abortion, another reason why the left

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Speaker 1: did not love her, And of course the left didn't

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Speaker 1: really love Hillary Clinton. She was a centrist candidate who

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Speaker 1: happened to be running for the left.

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Speaker 3: But I know what she was trying to say like

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Speaker 3: that is just such an example of how the conversation changed.

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Speaker 3: So as part of her podcast, she'd done an episode

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Speaker 3: about abortion, and someone asked her in an interview, have

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Speaker 3: you ever had an abortion? And she said, no, I

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Speaker 3: wish I had. But taken out of context, what she

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Speaker 3: was trying to say is she was trying to be silly.

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Speaker 1: And you know, self, step.

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Speaker 2: Think that what you're speaking to as well is that

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Speaker 2: we didn't know how to take her because she was

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Speaker 2: this character, this classic to uncouple Hannah Horvath from Lena Dunham,

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Speaker 2: I still think we don't quite know how to do that, and.

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Speaker 1: That's why she's cast someone else as in this new exactly.

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Speaker 2: And I think that activists now almost have to adopt

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Speaker 2: this earnest tone because if you are an activist, if

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Speaker 2: you have something very serious to say about the world,

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Speaker 2: you can never joke. So she would clumsily say things,

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Speaker 2: she would joke about something that.

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Speaker 1: Was very seriously because she's very funny.

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Speaker 2: She's very funny, and girl was very funny, brilliant writer,

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Speaker 2: and so she'd say things tongue in cheek, even on

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Speaker 2: girls that were then weaponized because we were like, well,

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Speaker 2: what are you about? Are you a feminist or are

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Speaker 2: you And it's how feminism became this like stick to

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Speaker 2: beat women with, because sometimes she did and she did

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Speaker 2: make real mistakes. Like I think it was just after

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Speaker 2: the Me Too movement when someone was accused.

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Speaker 1: Of Yeah, we should just talk briefly about that, because

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Speaker 1: that was I think the fine or nail in the

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Speaker 1: coffin Fellina Dunham. The left and the right just couldn't

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Speaker 1: handle her anymore. So what happened was in November twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, during the metre movement, there was a girl's

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Speaker 1: writer named Mary Miller a man, and an actress named

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Speaker 1: Aurora Perry No accused him of sexually assaulting her. This

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Speaker 1: was back in twenty twelve, but the allegation came out

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Speaker 1: in November twenty seventeen. Dunham responded to the accusations and

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Speaker 1: she said, Nope, I know him. He did not do this.

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Speaker 1: She said. While our first instinct is to listen to

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Speaker 1: every woman's story, our insider knowledge makes us confident that

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Speaker 1: this accusation is one of the three percent of assault

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Speaker 1: cases that are misreported every year. Now I remember reading

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Speaker 1: that on Instagram, do you I do I think. I

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Speaker 1: talked about it at the time, and I was devastated

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Speaker 1: because it just felt like a real betrayal. And I

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Speaker 1: don't identify with either the far left or the far right,

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Speaker 1: but to me, she lost me in that moment. I

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Speaker 1: have to appear right. She lost me and I was

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Speaker 1: a huge fan of hers. So then after that she

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Speaker 1: went very much to ground. She basically left public eye.

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Speaker 1: There were some health reasons for that. She had a hysterectomy,

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Speaker 1: Judah endometriosis, and she wrote about that very beautiful lest

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Speaker 1: for US Vogue. She also was diagnosed with Ella's dwan

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Speaker 1: Lows syndrome, and so she does now identify and describe

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Speaker 1: herself as chronically ill. She moved to London in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one. She went to rehab. She went to rehab.

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Speaker 3: She was addicted to prescription medication and she broke up

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Speaker 3: a long term relationship through almost the entirety of girls.

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Speaker 1: She was dating Jack Antonoff.

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Speaker 3: Who's Taylor Swift's co collaborator, Lord's collaborator Margaret Qually. He's

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Speaker 3: married to Margaret Qually, and that was a very defining

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Speaker 3: relationship obviously in her life at a very defining time.

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Speaker 1: In her life, and.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of biographical similarities. There's a character

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Speaker 3: very similar to him in Too Much, which is which

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Speaker 3: is also very interesting. But she's also very good friends

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Speaker 3: with Taylor Swift, who she no doubt met through her

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Speaker 3: relationship with Jack Antonoff and who she remains friends with

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Speaker 3: to this day. Taylor Swift was actually at her wedding too.

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Speaker 3: She was a brise man, yeah to this musician Loue Felder,

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Speaker 3: who's her co creator on Too Much. And she was

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Speaker 3: part of remember that whole squad, Yeah, with the nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty nine tour. It was all of these supermodels and

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Speaker 3: Lena Dunham And she spoke afterwards, even though she's still

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Speaker 3: friends with Taylor, how that wasn't very good for her

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Speaker 3: self esteem.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it wasn't very good for Taylor's self esteem either.

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Speaker 1: They both suffered from eating disorders around that time that

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Speaker 1: they've spoken about. She moved to London. She did make

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Speaker 1: some films, none of them really hit. And now there's

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Speaker 1: this She.

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Speaker 3: Has a I think it's a fifty five million dollar

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Speaker 3: deal with Netflix, so she's made Too Much, which is

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Speaker 3: a ten episode series which I assume will go to

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Speaker 3: a second season because I think it's been pretty well received.

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Speaker 3: She's also currently directing I think it's a rom com

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Speaker 3: with Natalie Portman in New York.

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Speaker 1: Called Good Sex.

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Speaker 3: She's got a ton of different projects on the boil.

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Speaker 3: I think she's so talented, like crazy talented. She's like

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Speaker 3: one of the most talented creators of our generation.

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Speaker 2: She's a beautiful writer, and I suppose you can compare

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Speaker 2: her almost to a bo Burnham. He's a male comedian

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Speaker 2: of the same sort of age, and he does something

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Speaker 2: really interesting, which is he releases a special, whether it's

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Speaker 2: stand up, whether it's on Netflix, like Inside, and then

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Speaker 2: he disappears for years. Is that a privilege that's afforded

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Speaker 2: to men. I don't know, but I was thinking about, like,

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Speaker 2: you're Jerry Seinfeld, You're Larry David, You're Ricky Gervais. I

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Speaker 2: think that men are allowed to create, star in develop

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Speaker 2: these personas who are imperfect and funny and play with

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Speaker 2: that in a way that we don't allow women to.

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Speaker 2: I think there was a lot of misogyny, a lot

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Speaker 2: of fat phobia in our treatment of Lena Dunham. I

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Speaker 2: just think it's very interesting that she's been invited back

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Speaker 2: to the party.

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Speaker 1: And what I'm so glad she has. What I'm loving

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Speaker 1: about this is that jen Z seems to be able

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Speaker 1: to rediscover her and girls without bringing the subsequent baggage

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Speaker 1: to it. They can appreciate it as the brilliant show

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Speaker 1: it was and celebrate her storytelling capacity without then having

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Speaker 1: to assume that she has to mean something politically to them.

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Speaker 3: So we'll be talking more about too much. If you

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00:22:22,754 --> 00:22:25,474
Speaker 3: want to get it into your eyes, it's on Netflix

435
00:22:25,554 --> 00:22:26,074
Speaker 3: at the moment.

436
00:22:26,114 --> 00:22:28,074
Speaker 1: You can watch all ten episodes.

437
00:22:28,274 --> 00:22:31,313
Speaker 2: In a moment. An inconvenient truth about alcohol and what

438
00:22:31,434 --> 00:22:38,394
Speaker 2: we're meant to actually do about it. Should Australia mandate

439
00:22:38,514 --> 00:22:42,474
Speaker 2: cancer warnings on alcohol? And how much labels on anything

440
00:22:42,634 --> 00:22:43,474
Speaker 2: really even matter?

441
00:22:44,154 --> 00:22:44,234
Speaker 1: So?

442
00:22:44,354 --> 00:22:47,034
Speaker 2: In January of this year, the United States Office of

443
00:22:47,074 --> 00:22:51,674
Speaker 2: the Surgeon General recommended that warnings about alcohol's cancer risks

444
00:22:51,954 --> 00:22:56,754
Speaker 2: be displayed on drink packaging. We are, as often cited,

445
00:22:56,834 --> 00:22:58,914
Speaker 2: much to Maya's disappointment, not doctors.

446
00:22:59,114 --> 00:22:59,954
Speaker 1: We're not. Man, we're not.

447
00:23:00,314 --> 00:23:00,634
Speaker 3: You're not.

448
00:23:01,114 --> 00:23:03,954
Speaker 2: But according to a study in The Lancet, alcohol is

449
00:23:04,034 --> 00:23:08,434
Speaker 2: responsible for five thousand, eight hundred new cancer cases per

450
00:23:08,554 --> 00:23:11,314
Speaker 2: year in Australia. That is more than I would have assumed.

451
00:23:11,914 --> 00:23:14,514
Speaker 2: It has been found that any level of alcohol use

452
00:23:14,634 --> 00:23:18,314
Speaker 2: increases the risk for several types of cancers. Now we're

453
00:23:18,314 --> 00:23:20,553
Speaker 2: going to leave the medical studies to the side, because

454
00:23:20,714 --> 00:23:24,434
Speaker 2: the question is how best to communicate this information given

455
00:23:24,514 --> 00:23:27,234
Speaker 2: a lot of Australians actually aren't aware of the risk.

456
00:23:27,834 --> 00:23:30,874
Speaker 2: So in Australia and the US there are warnings on alcohol,

457
00:23:30,994 --> 00:23:35,514
Speaker 2: about its impacts on unborn children and about operating heavy machinery.

458
00:23:35,594 --> 00:23:39,594
Speaker 2: Right did you know the pregnancy warning labels only became

459
00:23:39,634 --> 00:23:41,674
Speaker 2: mandatory in twenty twenty three in Australia.

460
00:23:41,794 --> 00:23:42,474
Speaker 1: Did not know that?

461
00:23:42,794 --> 00:23:43,954
Speaker 2: I thought they'd always been there.

462
00:23:43,994 --> 00:23:46,234
Speaker 1: Is that the one with the picture of the pregnant woman? Yes?

463
00:23:46,354 --> 00:23:46,714
Speaker 1: I think so.

464
00:23:46,914 --> 00:23:50,234
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Ireland is the first country to have a

465
00:23:50,274 --> 00:23:53,314
Speaker 2: mandatory cancer label on alcohol. It hasn't come in yet,

466
00:23:53,314 --> 00:23:56,834
Speaker 2: but they've made the sort of policy and Australian health

467
00:23:56,834 --> 00:24:00,154
Speaker 2: bodies want us to follow suit. My question is do

468
00:24:00,194 --> 00:24:04,074
Speaker 2: we reckon that labels make that much of a difference, Amelia,

469
00:24:04,074 --> 00:24:04,554
Speaker 2: What do you think?

470
00:24:04,674 --> 00:24:08,114
Speaker 1: I went on a real journey here because my instinct

471
00:24:08,194 --> 00:24:10,474
Speaker 1: was to say, no, they're white noise and we tune

472
00:24:10,474 --> 00:24:14,513
Speaker 1: them out and we want the drink. But then I

473
00:24:14,554 --> 00:24:17,434
Speaker 1: read about California. So when you go to California, you

474
00:24:17,474 --> 00:24:21,914
Speaker 1: see labels everywhere. They're on like everything from pleather jackets

475
00:24:21,954 --> 00:24:24,714
Speaker 1: to drink cans, like like soda cans.

476
00:24:25,554 --> 00:24:26,674
Speaker 2: What kind of labels?

477
00:24:26,754 --> 00:24:31,074
Speaker 1: Subway seats there are these huge labels that say, essentially,

478
00:24:31,154 --> 00:24:35,634
Speaker 1: this product may cause cancer. I cannot stress how widespread

479
00:24:35,714 --> 00:24:37,474
Speaker 1: these labels are. But what do you like on a

480
00:24:37,514 --> 00:24:38,274
Speaker 1: subway seat?

481
00:24:38,354 --> 00:24:40,114
Speaker 3: Yes, because of the plastic that's used.

482
00:24:40,154 --> 00:24:42,273
Speaker 1: Because of the plastics. So there was this law in

483
00:24:42,354 --> 00:24:46,273
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six which basically identified nine hundred chemicals that

484
00:24:46,354 --> 00:24:49,154
Speaker 1: could be carcinogenic. So it was a pretty low bar,

485
00:24:49,834 --> 00:24:53,714
Speaker 1: and they decided to slap these giant labels on any

486
00:24:53,834 --> 00:24:57,394
Speaker 1: product that contain these chemicals. We're talking big labels too.

487
00:24:57,474 --> 00:24:59,553
Speaker 2: See my response to that, I imagine that if I

488
00:24:59,674 --> 00:25:02,394
Speaker 2: lived in that context, I would stop seeing it. And

489
00:25:02,594 --> 00:25:04,834
Speaker 2: I'm feeling this already, that there's a new study every

490
00:25:04,874 --> 00:25:07,594
Speaker 2: day about a new castinogen, and I just have to go, Okay,

491
00:25:07,634 --> 00:25:09,314
Speaker 2: everything's carcinogenic. I'm not taking it.

492
00:25:09,394 --> 00:25:11,874
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I assume too, because as a consumer,

493
00:25:12,034 --> 00:25:13,513
Speaker 1: what can you do about it? So you get a

494
00:25:13,554 --> 00:25:15,354
Speaker 1: car seat, for instance, you rent a car and you

495
00:25:15,354 --> 00:25:17,354
Speaker 1: get a car seat, and on the car seat is

496
00:25:17,394 --> 00:25:19,874
Speaker 1: a giant label that says that the car seat that,

497
00:25:19,954 --> 00:25:21,874
Speaker 1: by the way, you are legally mandated to put in

498
00:25:21,914 --> 00:25:24,514
Speaker 1: the car and news may cause cancer. And you think

499
00:25:24,514 --> 00:25:27,314
Speaker 1: to yourself, well, that's unfortunate because I have to use it. Yeah,

500
00:25:27,874 --> 00:25:32,154
Speaker 1: but it turns out that they've had this unexpected consequence

501
00:25:32,194 --> 00:25:34,554
Speaker 1: that no one was really thinking about. So there was

502
00:25:34,594 --> 00:25:36,874
Speaker 1: a recent study done that said, let's look into what

503
00:25:37,194 --> 00:25:40,234
Speaker 1: sort of effects these labels have had, and they talked

504
00:25:40,234 --> 00:25:43,074
Speaker 1: to both consumers and to companies. And you're right about

505
00:25:43,074 --> 00:25:45,954
Speaker 1: the consumers because again, using the car seat example, there's

506
00:25:45,994 --> 00:25:47,594
Speaker 1: nothing I can really do about it. I have to

507
00:25:47,674 --> 00:25:49,994
Speaker 1: use the car seat unless they fashioned one out of bamboo,

508
00:25:50,034 --> 00:25:52,553
Speaker 1: which I don't think would be legal. Legal. Yeah, So

509
00:25:52,594 --> 00:25:55,234
Speaker 1: they are the companies. And it turns out that eighty

510
00:25:55,274 --> 00:25:58,674
Speaker 1: percent of the companies that this survey interviewed said that

511
00:25:58,714 --> 00:26:01,634
Speaker 1: the law had prompted them to reformulate their products. So

512
00:26:01,674 --> 00:26:04,273
Speaker 1: think about, for instance, nail polish remover, like, yes, you

513
00:26:04,314 --> 00:26:06,714
Speaker 1: can make it with the carcinogenic substance, or you can

514
00:26:06,754 --> 00:26:10,154
Speaker 1: try and something else that maybe doesn't cause cancer. And

515
00:26:10,274 --> 00:26:12,033
Speaker 1: so what I think is fascinating about this in the

516
00:26:12,034 --> 00:26:14,794
Speaker 1: context of this debate about Australia and the labels and alcohol,

517
00:26:15,514 --> 00:26:19,234
Speaker 1: is that obviously you know something either has alcohol or

518
00:26:19,274 --> 00:26:21,553
Speaker 1: it doesn't. It's a little bit different. But on the

519
00:26:21,554 --> 00:26:24,073
Speaker 1: other hand, I think we are seeing a trend towards

520
00:26:24,114 --> 00:26:29,154
Speaker 1: people wanting lower alcohol beverages or maybe even those fancy

521
00:26:29,194 --> 00:26:32,914
Speaker 1: non alcoholic beverages that people are increasingly using for mocktails

522
00:26:33,154 --> 00:26:36,833
Speaker 1: and as a substitute in social events. So I wonder

523
00:26:36,954 --> 00:26:39,834
Speaker 1: if it is going to prompt companies to innovate more

524
00:26:39,954 --> 00:26:42,914
Speaker 1: to make lower alcohols or no alcohols, like a phoney

525
00:26:42,914 --> 00:26:45,074
Speaker 1: Negroni for instance. That could be a positive.

526
00:26:45,234 --> 00:26:47,874
Speaker 2: This is also being discussed in the US around highly

527
00:26:47,954 --> 00:26:51,274
Speaker 2: processed food and wanting to have clear labels about what's

528
00:26:51,314 --> 00:26:54,754
Speaker 2: in the food, and it has been adopted in places

529
00:26:54,754 --> 00:26:57,874
Speaker 2: in South America and apparently has had an impact on

530
00:26:58,674 --> 00:27:02,274
Speaker 2: firstly the knowledge and secondly the choice whether or not

531
00:27:02,474 --> 00:27:05,154
Speaker 2: to buy it. I think Australia has sort of messed

532
00:27:05,154 --> 00:27:07,434
Speaker 2: this up a bit with the Health Star rating because

533
00:27:07,474 --> 00:27:09,514
Speaker 2: I've started to ignore that. Do you actually take any

534
00:27:09,554 --> 00:27:10,634
Speaker 2: notice of the health Star rating?

535
00:27:10,754 --> 00:27:10,794
Speaker 4: No?

536
00:27:11,354 --> 00:27:13,954
Speaker 1: And in fact, my child looks at the snack and

537
00:27:13,994 --> 00:27:16,954
Speaker 1: it has one star, and yes, well, it's got a star.

538
00:27:17,274 --> 00:27:19,234
Speaker 2: It's got a star. And what a lot of people

539
00:27:19,234 --> 00:27:21,634
Speaker 2: don't know about your health star rating is that it's

540
00:27:21,634 --> 00:27:23,793
Speaker 2: been compared to other foods in the same category. So

541
00:27:23,834 --> 00:27:26,674
Speaker 2: you're not comparing yoga and chips. You're comparing chips and chips.

542
00:27:26,834 --> 00:27:29,354
Speaker 2: So your four star actually isn't healthy, right.

543
00:27:29,394 --> 00:27:30,834
Speaker 1: So it's interesting. I didn't know that.

544
00:27:30,954 --> 00:27:32,954
Speaker 2: So there are some labels that I've stopped seeing. But

545
00:27:32,994 --> 00:27:36,313
Speaker 2: the difference with alcohol, I was thinking, is most of

546
00:27:36,314 --> 00:27:39,794
Speaker 2: the context in which I consume alcohol, I have absolutely

547
00:27:39,834 --> 00:27:43,314
Speaker 2: no proximity to the label. So I am at a bar,

548
00:27:43,594 --> 00:27:45,954
Speaker 2: a restaurant, even if I'm at work and someone pours

549
00:27:45,954 --> 00:27:47,634
Speaker 2: me a drink, I'm at dinner and someone pours me

550
00:27:47,674 --> 00:27:50,554
Speaker 2: a drink. My behavior around alcohol is that I don't

551
00:27:50,594 --> 00:27:54,074
Speaker 2: generally have it in my house. But I wonder if

552
00:27:54,114 --> 00:27:57,914
Speaker 2: that's going to make any difference if it's being poured

553
00:27:57,954 --> 00:28:00,674
Speaker 2: at a venue. Whereas with cigarettes, for example, where we

554
00:28:00,714 --> 00:28:03,234
Speaker 2: know that the label had made a big difference, there's

555
00:28:03,274 --> 00:28:05,994
Speaker 2: no such thing as getting a cigarette as distinct from

556
00:28:06,034 --> 00:28:08,634
Speaker 2: its packaging, you know what I mean? Like alcohol exists

557
00:28:08,674 --> 00:28:12,034
Speaker 2: is a very specific type of consumer good in that

558
00:28:12,114 --> 00:28:14,794
Speaker 2: often it's not linked to its packaging, so I would

559
00:28:14,834 --> 00:28:18,554
Speaker 2: never see that label, Like do you read labels on things?

560
00:28:18,954 --> 00:28:19,073
Speaker 1: Like?

561
00:28:19,114 --> 00:28:21,434
Speaker 3: I don't read the fine print, But if it's an

562
00:28:21,514 --> 00:28:25,394
Speaker 3: actual label, yeah, I mean I do. I guess I

563
00:28:25,514 --> 00:28:28,714
Speaker 3: do if it's warning me of something. I'm also a

564
00:28:28,714 --> 00:28:31,394
Speaker 3: little bit wary, you know. I like being educated. I

565
00:28:31,554 --> 00:28:34,834
Speaker 3: like knowing so that I've got choice. I think that

566
00:28:34,874 --> 00:28:37,274
Speaker 3: a lot of people don't know the connection between alcohol

567
00:28:37,354 --> 00:28:41,114
Speaker 3: and cancer. Everyone knows the connection between cigarettes and cancer.

568
00:28:41,674 --> 00:28:44,634
Speaker 3: But I don't think that's a bad thing.

569
00:28:45,034 --> 00:28:49,714
Speaker 2: I wonder too, if the cigarettes and the alcohol. So,

570
00:28:49,834 --> 00:28:52,154
Speaker 2: for example, the two messages on alcohol at the moment

571
00:28:52,194 --> 00:28:55,354
Speaker 2: are about pregnancy and unbond baby and operating heavy machinery.

572
00:28:55,434 --> 00:28:55,594
Speaker 1: Right.

573
00:28:56,274 --> 00:28:59,674
Speaker 2: There is enormous stigma about those two things, and the

574
00:28:59,794 --> 00:29:03,554
Speaker 2: stigma I think comes from it impacting another person.

575
00:29:03,914 --> 00:29:04,554
Speaker 1: Ah, that's fair.

576
00:29:04,714 --> 00:29:07,274
Speaker 2: So if I sit there at the pub and my

577
00:29:07,314 --> 00:29:09,794
Speaker 2: friend has had four drinks and picks up their car

578
00:29:09,874 --> 00:29:12,794
Speaker 2: keys horrified, you simply wouldn't let it happen. And that's

579
00:29:12,874 --> 00:29:15,034
Speaker 2: been a change in a generation. That's been a really

580
00:29:15,154 --> 00:29:17,274
Speaker 2: positive thing. Same with drinking. The idea that you would

581
00:29:17,634 --> 00:29:19,634
Speaker 2: if a heavily pregnant person was sitting there with the

582
00:29:19,634 --> 00:29:22,354
Speaker 2: bottle of wine in front of her, you'd get looks.

583
00:29:23,274 --> 00:29:26,434
Speaker 2: But cancer impacts you, and so I wonder if there

584
00:29:26,434 --> 00:29:29,794
Speaker 2: will ever be the same amount of stigma around that

585
00:29:30,234 --> 00:29:33,794
Speaker 2: even with cigarettes. My issue with people smoking in public

586
00:29:33,874 --> 00:29:37,274
Speaker 2: is the passive smoke of like it impacting people around them,

587
00:29:37,274 --> 00:29:37,794
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.

588
00:29:37,914 --> 00:29:40,394
Speaker 3: I'd be interested to know whether the because obviously the

589
00:29:40,394 --> 00:29:44,034
Speaker 3: photos that are on cigarette packets are extreme and they're

590
00:29:44,034 --> 00:29:46,594
Speaker 3: not like your regular warning label. They're very, very graphic.

591
00:29:47,314 --> 00:29:50,634
Speaker 3: I know that some people have actually black humor, name

592
00:29:50,874 --> 00:29:54,674
Speaker 3: the people and name the photos, and there's a sort

593
00:29:54,674 --> 00:29:57,594
Speaker 3: of a oh, this is Jerry with the lungs, or

594
00:29:57,634 --> 00:30:00,274
Speaker 3: this is you know, Jane with the fingers, whatever it is.

595
00:30:01,434 --> 00:30:03,394
Speaker 3: But it would be probably hard to measure that because

596
00:30:03,434 --> 00:30:05,994
Speaker 3: over the same period of time, the price of cigarettes

597
00:30:06,034 --> 00:30:07,394
Speaker 3: has gone up a huge.

598
00:30:07,354 --> 00:30:08,514
Speaker 2: And advertising was pulled.

599
00:30:08,634 --> 00:30:11,074
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is a different kind of detern.

600
00:30:11,114 --> 00:30:13,434
Speaker 1: I think that's a really interesting point. You make me out.

601
00:30:13,434 --> 00:30:15,434
Speaker 1: I'm a bit stuck on it, the idea that we

602
00:30:15,554 --> 00:30:21,634
Speaker 1: all now understand that cigarettes cause cancer. We read articles

603
00:30:21,674 --> 00:30:25,834
Speaker 1: just constantly telling us about the direct links between alcohol

604
00:30:25,914 --> 00:30:27,794
Speaker 1: and cancer. Why do you think it's been so hard

605
00:30:27,834 --> 00:30:29,954
Speaker 1: for us to internalize that as a society.

606
00:30:30,314 --> 00:30:33,474
Speaker 3: I think that alcohol is so much part of our

607
00:30:34,114 --> 00:30:41,194
Speaker 3: culture and so connected to celebrations, whereas they don't have

608
00:30:41,234 --> 00:30:43,594
Speaker 3: a celebratory cigarette. I mean, you know, there used to

609
00:30:43,594 --> 00:30:45,914
Speaker 3: be that cliche after really good sex, you know, people

610
00:30:45,954 --> 00:30:48,874
Speaker 3: would say, I feel like a cigarette. But it's not like, Oh,

611
00:30:49,034 --> 00:30:51,074
Speaker 3: it's you've got a promotion at work, let's all have

612
00:30:51,154 --> 00:30:51,874
Speaker 3: a cigarette.

613
00:30:52,714 --> 00:30:56,194
Speaker 1: There's never been that row and it's your one cigarette

614
00:30:56,234 --> 00:30:56,834
Speaker 1: a week. Yeah.

615
00:30:56,954 --> 00:31:00,554
Speaker 2: That smoking I think was that widespread in say my parents' generation,

616
00:31:00,674 --> 00:31:02,914
Speaker 2: like it was something that everyone did, and you see

617
00:31:02,954 --> 00:31:05,714
Speaker 2: it even in films. It's like the easiest way for

618
00:31:05,794 --> 00:31:08,554
Speaker 2: them to sit to wait themselves. Within the context of

619
00:31:08,594 --> 00:31:11,114
Speaker 2: the seventies is that everyone has a cigarette in I've.

620
00:31:10,914 --> 00:31:14,274
Speaker 3: Seen a lot more smoking in popular culture, like on

621
00:31:14,474 --> 00:31:17,634
Speaker 3: and just like that, for example, the way same as smokes,

622
00:31:17,634 --> 00:31:19,314
Speaker 3: the way carry sometimes smokes.

623
00:31:19,354 --> 00:31:22,394
Speaker 1: There's also been this wishful thinking about the idea that

624
00:31:22,514 --> 00:31:25,754
Speaker 1: young people are going to understand just how bad alcohol

625
00:31:25,954 --> 00:31:28,754
Speaker 1: is and not drink, And there's been this rising trend

626
00:31:28,754 --> 00:31:31,874
Speaker 1: of articles about how gen z have rejected alcohol as

627
00:31:31,874 --> 00:31:35,434
Speaker 1: a social lubricant in the way that past generations loved it.

628
00:31:35,434 --> 00:31:37,954
Speaker 1: It turns out that really was just wishful thinking. A

629
00:31:37,994 --> 00:31:40,754
Speaker 1: new report and the Financial Times says that seventy three

630
00:31:40,794 --> 00:31:44,234
Speaker 1: percent of Gen Z admitted to consuming alcohol in the

631
00:31:44,274 --> 00:31:46,954
Speaker 1: past six months. And so it turns out the reason

632
00:31:46,994 --> 00:31:49,354
Speaker 1: why they weren't drinking was because they weren't in the

633
00:31:49,394 --> 00:31:51,674
Speaker 1: workforce and they didn't have money to spend on alcohol.

634
00:31:51,834 --> 00:31:54,394
Speaker 1: But now that they're aging into the workforce and earning

635
00:31:54,394 --> 00:31:56,794
Speaker 1: real money, it turns out that they like a drink

636
00:31:56,874 --> 00:31:59,634
Speaker 1: just as much as any other generation. I think it's

637
00:31:59,674 --> 00:32:02,114
Speaker 1: time for a bit of scurrillous gossip, just to lighten

638
00:32:02,114 --> 00:32:05,314
Speaker 1: the mood here a little bit. Prince Harry and King

639
00:32:05,434 --> 00:32:08,994
Speaker 1: Charles may be working towards making amends, and I am

640
00:32:09,154 --> 00:32:11,954
Speaker 1: so relieved. I've been very worried about this.

641
00:32:12,114 --> 00:32:13,794
Speaker 2: What do we know about this? Because I saw the

642
00:32:13,834 --> 00:32:16,754
Speaker 2: headlines over the weekend, what steps have been taken?

643
00:32:16,834 --> 00:32:19,914
Speaker 1: It's actually not even that scurrilous. There's photos. So the

644
00:32:19,954 --> 00:32:22,554
Speaker 1: Mail on Sunday had the scoop. They said that the

645
00:32:22,594 --> 00:32:25,234
Speaker 1: Monarch and the Duke of Sussex's aides met for a

646
00:32:25,274 --> 00:32:28,714
Speaker 1: secret peace summit in London last week and there were

647
00:32:28,714 --> 00:32:32,394
Speaker 1: photos in fact of these high level officials leaving the meeting.

648
00:32:32,674 --> 00:32:35,194
Speaker 1: So It took place at a place called the Royal

649
00:32:35,354 --> 00:32:38,874
Speaker 1: Overseas League. That is a private members club that was

650
00:32:38,914 --> 00:32:43,274
Speaker 1: set up to promote wait for it, international friendship. Oh

651
00:32:43,314 --> 00:32:47,074
Speaker 1: across the pond overseass two words for some reason, and

652
00:32:47,114 --> 00:32:49,794
Speaker 1: I can just smell the other bound books in their car.

653
00:32:50,914 --> 00:32:53,354
Speaker 1: It was very the Crown. I want to go to

654
00:32:53,394 --> 00:32:56,914
Speaker 1: their people, shaman might say, who is there? So I'm

655
00:32:56,914 --> 00:32:59,074
Speaker 1: glad you asked that, mere because we've got their names.

656
00:32:59,154 --> 00:33:03,474
Speaker 1: Meredith Mains who was Prince Harry's new CEO, Liam McGuire,

657
00:33:03,674 --> 00:33:06,354
Speaker 1: who was the Sussex's pr lead. That's a busy job,

658
00:33:06,434 --> 00:33:11,594
Speaker 1: isn't it. And Tobin Andre who was King Charles's communications secretary.

659
00:33:11,634 --> 00:33:15,114
Speaker 1: Now what I really want to know is who leaked this?

660
00:33:15,234 --> 00:33:17,634
Speaker 1: Which side do you think has more interest in leaking

661
00:33:17,674 --> 00:33:18,834
Speaker 1: that these talks are happening?

662
00:33:18,954 --> 00:33:20,354
Speaker 2: May I the're the pr expert.

663
00:33:20,474 --> 00:33:22,914
Speaker 3: I think it was a joint decision to leak it,

664
00:33:22,994 --> 00:33:26,034
Speaker 3: because it's almost a leak off, right. I imagine that

665
00:33:26,154 --> 00:33:28,914
Speaker 3: the terms and conditions by which this meeting and any

666
00:33:28,954 --> 00:33:32,194
Speaker 3: future meetings would happen, because part of the reason they

667
00:33:32,194 --> 00:33:35,154
Speaker 3: haven't happened until now is because no one trusts the

668
00:33:35,194 --> 00:33:40,234
Speaker 3: Sussexes anymore because every text message, every phone call, every conversation,

669
00:33:40,394 --> 00:33:44,274
Speaker 3: a lot of these really private exchanges have become fodder

670
00:33:44,314 --> 00:33:48,394
Speaker 3: for interviews, for books, for Netflix documentaries. So I think

671
00:33:48,434 --> 00:33:53,114
Speaker 3: for anyone to feel safe having these conversations, the leaking

672
00:33:53,194 --> 00:33:56,074
Speaker 3: policy would have had to be very much laid out,

673
00:33:56,074 --> 00:33:58,114
Speaker 3: So I think it was probably mutual decision.

674
00:33:58,554 --> 00:34:02,594
Speaker 1: I also think Harry has a real incentive here to

675
00:34:02,714 --> 00:34:05,074
Speaker 1: patch things up fast. Now I'm going to get a

676
00:34:05,074 --> 00:34:07,754
Speaker 1: little bit pragmatic and maybe a little bit more, but

677
00:34:07,874 --> 00:34:11,433
Speaker 1: about this, Charles is in his mid seventies. By all accounts,

678
00:34:11,674 --> 00:34:15,274
Speaker 1: William is determined not to let Harry get away with

679
00:34:15,514 --> 00:34:18,634
Speaker 1: any of this royal ish funny business anymore. So for

680
00:34:18,634 --> 00:34:22,034
Speaker 1: instance calling himself the Duke of Sussex. Jamie Kern Lee

681
00:34:22,114 --> 00:34:25,034
Speaker 1: mckho was the first person to have Megan on a

682
00:34:25,074 --> 00:34:28,953
Speaker 1: podcast as an interview guest showed on her Instagram that

683
00:34:28,994 --> 00:34:33,234
Speaker 1: Meghan had sent her a gift using the HRH nomenclature,

684
00:34:33,434 --> 00:34:36,914
Speaker 1: which William is simply not going to allow. So when

685
00:34:37,194 --> 00:34:42,154
Speaker 1: William becomes king, all these royal sort of trappings are

686
00:34:42,154 --> 00:34:45,554
Speaker 1: going to go away. So I think what Harry wants

687
00:34:45,594 --> 00:34:48,514
Speaker 1: to do is shore up what he can use and

688
00:34:48,554 --> 00:34:52,074
Speaker 1: what he can't use now, because soon enough it's going

689
00:34:52,154 --> 00:34:54,154
Speaker 1: to be very hard for him to get away with it.

690
00:34:54,234 --> 00:34:56,034
Speaker 3: He's so completely excommunicated.

691
00:34:56,154 --> 00:34:59,114
Speaker 2: As soon as I saw this headline, my first reaction

692
00:34:59,394 --> 00:35:03,114
Speaker 2: was concerned for Charles because I went, oh, he's sicker

693
00:35:03,114 --> 00:35:05,913
Speaker 2: than we thought because he was diagnosed with cancer in

694
00:35:06,274 --> 00:35:09,474
Speaker 2: February last We do not know what type of cancer

695
00:35:09,514 --> 00:35:13,874
Speaker 2: that is still there was Also, when Harry recently did

696
00:35:13,914 --> 00:35:17,274
Speaker 2: that interview following the court case, he said, I.

697
00:35:17,234 --> 00:35:19,234
Speaker 3: Don't know how long my father, Yeah, but they were

698
00:35:19,314 --> 00:35:20,393
Speaker 3: very upset about that.

699
00:35:20,434 --> 00:35:21,314
Speaker 2: They weren't set about that.

700
00:35:21,434 --> 00:35:24,994
Speaker 3: Firstly, he doesn't know, and secondly that's a pretty awful

701
00:35:24,994 --> 00:35:25,674
Speaker 3: thing to say.

702
00:35:25,714 --> 00:35:28,034
Speaker 2: But for Charles to come to the table here, I

703
00:35:28,194 --> 00:35:31,754
Speaker 2: just thought, there is nothing like mortality to kind of

704
00:35:31,914 --> 00:35:34,994
Speaker 2: bring potential or an attempt at reconciliation.

705
00:35:35,274 --> 00:35:37,953
Speaker 3: You know who wasn't represented at that meeting, William No.

706
00:35:38,074 --> 00:35:40,074
Speaker 1: And nor will he after the break?

707
00:35:40,114 --> 00:35:43,393
Speaker 3: Has posting on Instagram and Facebook become cringe? And are

708
00:35:43,394 --> 00:35:45,154
Speaker 3: we heading towards posting zero?

709
00:35:46,034 --> 00:35:49,994
Speaker 2: What unlimited out loud access? We drop episodes every Tuesday

710
00:35:49,994 --> 00:35:54,234
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mum and Maya subscribers. Follow the

711
00:35:54,274 --> 00:35:56,154
Speaker 2: link in the show notes to get us in your

712
00:35:56,194 --> 00:35:58,994
Speaker 2: ears five days a week, and a huge thank you

713
00:35:59,154 --> 00:36:05,354
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers.

714
00:36:06,874 --> 00:36:09,433
Speaker 4: I just came back from Greece, so I definitely would

715
00:36:09,434 --> 00:36:12,794
Speaker 4: say I insufferably overposted on that holiday, both grid posts

716
00:36:12,834 --> 00:36:16,154
Speaker 4: and stories. Most of the time, though I probably consistently

717
00:36:16,154 --> 00:36:20,433
Speaker 4: post Instagram stories grid posts probably more, maybe once every

718
00:36:20,474 --> 00:36:21,114
Speaker 4: two weeks.

719
00:36:21,554 --> 00:36:23,554
Speaker 5: I do not post a lot to my main kind

720
00:36:23,554 --> 00:36:25,754
Speaker 5: of like Instagram or TikTok feeds. But what I do

721
00:36:25,874 --> 00:36:28,114
Speaker 5: use social media for a lot more is stories. I

722
00:36:28,154 --> 00:36:30,634
Speaker 5: kind of like that it's temporary and there's less pressure

723
00:36:30,674 --> 00:36:32,474
Speaker 5: I feel to get it right. You don't have to

724
00:36:32,514 --> 00:36:34,794
Speaker 5: curate anything, you don't have to get a caption. It

725
00:36:34,834 --> 00:36:37,354
Speaker 5: can just be a lot simpler. So I do not

726
00:36:37,434 --> 00:36:40,074
Speaker 5: post regularly on social media. Maybe once a year if that.

727
00:36:40,514 --> 00:36:42,474
Speaker 5: If we've been on holidays and I want to post

728
00:36:42,514 --> 00:36:45,474
Speaker 5: a photo, I feel this weird pressure about getting the

729
00:36:45,474 --> 00:36:47,393
Speaker 5: caption right and do I need to ask a friend

730
00:36:47,394 --> 00:36:48,194
Speaker 5: to edit the lighting?

731
00:36:48,274 --> 00:36:49,993
Speaker 1: And like, who am I.

732
00:36:49,914 --> 00:36:50,433
Speaker 4: Doing this for?

733
00:36:50,714 --> 00:36:53,194
Speaker 5: Because I don't care, and in my real life I.

734
00:36:53,114 --> 00:36:56,314
Speaker 3: Don't care if you know anybody who's on holidays at

735
00:36:56,314 --> 00:37:00,274
Speaker 3: the moment, particularly in Europe. You might be struck by

736
00:37:00,914 --> 00:37:04,234
Speaker 3: how surprising it is to see this almost retro use

737
00:37:04,274 --> 00:37:07,794
Speaker 3: of social media where they're posting his what I ate

738
00:37:07,834 --> 00:37:12,594
Speaker 3: for lunch, Here's me in front of a landmark, Here's

739
00:37:12,914 --> 00:37:15,314
Speaker 3: what I bought in a shop. I've got a few

740
00:37:15,354 --> 00:37:18,433
Speaker 3: friends who are overseas at the moment, and it's such

741
00:37:18,434 --> 00:37:21,514
Speaker 3: a stark contrast because it feels like what social media

742
00:37:21,914 --> 00:37:25,034
Speaker 3: isn't anymore. And I only realized that when I started

743
00:37:25,034 --> 00:37:28,794
Speaker 3: seeing those photos again. As social media has evolved, the

744
00:37:28,834 --> 00:37:33,873
Speaker 3: baseline expectation for posting keeps rising. We've been posting, well

745
00:37:33,914 --> 00:37:37,954
Speaker 3: some of us for fifteen years now, and it started

746
00:37:37,994 --> 00:37:41,634
Speaker 3: off with sort of dashed off tweets. Then it became

747
00:37:41,954 --> 00:37:46,634
Speaker 3: carefully composed Instagram photos, which were replaced in turn by

748
00:37:46,674 --> 00:37:51,674
Speaker 3: TikTok clips, which are increasingly showing the production value of television.

749
00:37:52,154 --> 00:37:54,514
Speaker 3: Have you noticed that it's now and you flick through,

750
00:37:55,354 --> 00:37:58,913
Speaker 3: everything's moving towards short form video content. So there's very

751
00:37:58,954 --> 00:38:02,794
Speaker 3: few pictures of people's breakfasts, very few pictures of sunsets,

752
00:38:03,434 --> 00:38:07,674
Speaker 3: very few pictures of people's dogs or selfies or their families.

753
00:38:08,514 --> 00:38:11,074
Speaker 3: And women, we know that women are posting less and

754
00:38:11,154 --> 00:38:14,154
Speaker 3: lurking more and there are three. There are actually four

755
00:38:14,194 --> 00:38:16,034
Speaker 3: reasons for this, which I'm just quickly going to go

756
00:38:16,074 --> 00:38:17,994
Speaker 3: through and tell me if any of these resonate with you.

757
00:38:18,834 --> 00:38:21,674
Speaker 3: The first one is with everything going on in the world,

758
00:38:21,914 --> 00:38:24,714
Speaker 3: a lot of which we see via social thanks to

759
00:38:24,754 --> 00:38:29,594
Speaker 3: the algorithm, people are feeling self conscious about posting just

760
00:38:29,674 --> 00:38:35,154
Speaker 3: sort of mundane, benign updates about their life because you know,

761
00:38:35,194 --> 00:38:38,154
Speaker 3: there's a lot of shouting and a lot of assumptions

762
00:38:38,154 --> 00:38:40,393
Speaker 3: are being made by what you don't post.

763
00:38:40,154 --> 00:38:41,234
Speaker 1: Or what you do post.

764
00:38:41,354 --> 00:38:44,914
Speaker 2: I think specifically in a context where there is discussions

765
00:38:44,954 --> 00:38:47,634
Speaker 2: around Gaza and what is happening in the US with

766
00:38:47,874 --> 00:38:51,794
Speaker 2: Ice at the moment, that anything you post does look

767
00:38:51,834 --> 00:38:54,194
Speaker 2: tone deaf beside the worst thing happening in the world

768
00:38:54,314 --> 00:38:58,033
Speaker 2: right now, and therefore people are sort of opting out

769
00:38:58,314 --> 00:39:03,714
Speaker 2: whether you post or you don't post, that will be weaponized.

770
00:39:03,874 --> 00:39:07,354
Speaker 3: Because those things didn't used to be on Instagram so much,

771
00:39:07,394 --> 00:39:10,314
Speaker 3: but now there's so many brands posting and creators and

772
00:39:10,354 --> 00:39:14,473
Speaker 3: influencers they've sort of taken over, and news brands as well.

773
00:39:14,794 --> 00:39:18,674
Speaker 3: The second reason, which I alluded to earlier reels it's

774
00:39:18,714 --> 00:39:21,274
Speaker 3: now whether it's on TikTok or whether it's on Instagram,

775
00:39:21,514 --> 00:39:25,274
Speaker 3: even on Facebook, people are posting these kind of movie

776
00:39:25,354 --> 00:39:29,954
Speaker 3: trailer production quality values, and social is a place of

777
00:39:29,994 --> 00:39:33,314
Speaker 3: work for a lot of people, influencers, creators, and brands.

778
00:39:33,714 --> 00:39:35,754
Speaker 3: So these are big budgets. It takes a lot of

779
00:39:35,794 --> 00:39:40,794
Speaker 3: time to edit and produce and film these reels, and.

780
00:39:40,754 --> 00:39:43,194
Speaker 1: Not everybody's up to it, right, And that's not an accident.

781
00:39:43,434 --> 00:39:46,074
Speaker 2: I think, as you say, the average person, women are

782
00:39:46,354 --> 00:39:49,234
Speaker 2: posting less and less, and that is because of a

783
00:39:49,434 --> 00:39:53,393
Speaker 2: very intentional algorithm change that happened, which was we are

784
00:39:53,474 --> 00:39:58,034
Speaker 2: going to present your content to strangers. This is no

785
00:39:58,074 --> 00:40:01,393
Speaker 2: longer about friends engaging. Mark Zuckerberg has talked about that

786
00:40:01,914 --> 00:40:04,314
Speaker 2: on Instagram. Initially it was like I was sharing with

787
00:40:04,354 --> 00:40:07,594
Speaker 2: my community, and now it's been like who.

788
00:40:07,514 --> 00:40:08,433
Speaker 1: Chose to follow you?

789
00:40:08,914 --> 00:40:11,274
Speaker 3: Now they were interested in what Jesse had for breakfast,

790
00:40:11,314 --> 00:40:12,594
Speaker 3: or maybe that you've got a haircut.

791
00:40:12,674 --> 00:40:16,034
Speaker 2: Now you're performing to strangers. And therefore it is the

792
00:40:16,034 --> 00:40:21,953
Speaker 2: erasure of context, which brings it back to your I

793
00:40:21,954 --> 00:40:24,554
Speaker 2: suppose either you post about everything all of the time

794
00:40:24,994 --> 00:40:26,074
Speaker 2: or you post about nothing.

795
00:40:26,354 --> 00:40:29,434
Speaker 3: That context is really important. And that's the next point

796
00:40:29,594 --> 00:40:31,794
Speaker 3: is that millennials who grew up on social media. Like

797
00:40:31,834 --> 00:40:36,234
Speaker 3: you two, you're moving into middle age and seeking more

798
00:40:36,234 --> 00:40:39,114
Speaker 3: privacy in your lives. You don't want to be perceived

799
00:40:39,154 --> 00:40:42,514
Speaker 3: all the time, that sense of I don't want to

800
00:40:42,554 --> 00:40:45,514
Speaker 3: show the world what I'm doing. It's almost like everybody's

801
00:40:45,554 --> 00:40:48,473
Speaker 3: woken up from this collective fever dream of why were

802
00:40:48,514 --> 00:40:52,354
Speaker 3: we just sharing all the private moments from our lives?

803
00:40:52,794 --> 00:40:55,154
Speaker 3: Firstly with a bunch of people who we might you know,

804
00:40:55,394 --> 00:40:56,913
Speaker 3: the person who went to school with, or an ex

805
00:40:56,994 --> 00:40:58,914
Speaker 3: boyfriend or an ex boyfriend's mother.

806
00:40:58,794 --> 00:40:59,754
Speaker 1: That still follows you.

807
00:41:00,354 --> 00:41:02,314
Speaker 3: And now it's literally why would I want to share

808
00:41:02,354 --> 00:41:04,994
Speaker 3: those things with strangers? And that idea of being perceived

809
00:41:05,034 --> 00:41:07,554
Speaker 3: by people either who you don't know very well or

810
00:41:07,674 --> 00:41:11,554
Speaker 3: you don't at all. And then the fourth reason is

811
00:41:11,834 --> 00:41:15,754
Speaker 3: group chats. This is relatively new over the last few years.

812
00:41:16,074 --> 00:41:18,714
Speaker 3: If you wanted to share an observation about something, a

813
00:41:18,754 --> 00:41:21,114
Speaker 3: picture about something, some news that you've got a promotion,

814
00:41:21,434 --> 00:41:23,834
Speaker 3: or that you'd had to put your dog down, you

815
00:41:23,874 --> 00:41:27,354
Speaker 3: would do that on social media. Now you're much more

816
00:41:27,394 --> 00:41:28,714
Speaker 3: likely to do it in a group chat.

817
00:41:28,754 --> 00:41:32,074
Speaker 1: I think there's a fifth reason ai as Ai scraped

818
00:41:32,114 --> 00:41:35,034
Speaker 1: the internet for fodder. People are understanding you don't want

819
00:41:35,034 --> 00:41:36,914
Speaker 1: to put your baby photo up there because your baby's

820
00:41:36,914 --> 00:41:39,034
Speaker 1: going to end up being used by AI to make

821
00:41:39,074 --> 00:41:40,554
Speaker 1: a completely unrelated video.

822
00:41:40,994 --> 00:41:44,394
Speaker 3: So Jesse, I was reading this amazing piece about posting

823
00:41:44,434 --> 00:41:46,434
Speaker 3: on we which is kind of like everyone's feeling a

824
00:41:46,474 --> 00:41:47,434
Speaker 3: bit weird about posting.

825
00:41:47,674 --> 00:41:49,114
Speaker 1: It was in The New Yorker this week.

826
00:41:49,554 --> 00:41:51,433
Speaker 3: I certainly feel that way. I used to do insta

827
00:41:51,474 --> 00:41:53,354
Speaker 3: babbles on Instagram all the time, where I just sort

828
00:41:53,394 --> 00:41:56,074
Speaker 3: of chat, you know, spontaneously while I put my makeup

829
00:41:56,074 --> 00:41:58,754
Speaker 3: on a couple of months ago, I felt uncomfortable about

830
00:41:58,754 --> 00:42:01,433
Speaker 3: doing that, and I stopped doing that. And I used

831
00:42:01,434 --> 00:42:04,874
Speaker 3: to post lots of sort of getting ready videos and stuff.

832
00:42:04,914 --> 00:42:07,714
Speaker 3: I don't do that anymore. And I loved the idea

833
00:42:07,794 --> 00:42:11,474
Speaker 3: of understanding why. And it's said in this article social

834
00:42:11,514 --> 00:42:15,514
Speaker 3: now is just used for punditory provocation and promotion. Does

835
00:42:15,594 --> 00:42:16,274
Speaker 3: that ring truth for you?

836
00:42:16,874 --> 00:42:20,393
Speaker 2: Yes? And it is my greatest concern, like reading this

837
00:42:20,674 --> 00:42:24,114
Speaker 2: about who we're leaving social media too, because I think

838
00:42:24,114 --> 00:42:27,834
Speaker 2: it's a very skewed vision of who people are, what

839
00:42:27,874 --> 00:42:33,274
Speaker 2: they care about, morality, ethics, tone, discourse, all of those

840
00:42:33,274 --> 00:42:37,954
Speaker 2: things being left to the content creators now. When someone

841
00:42:37,994 --> 00:42:41,154
Speaker 2: uploads something onto social media. It's sort of like, oh,

842
00:42:41,154 --> 00:42:43,314
Speaker 2: are you trying to be a content creator? You kind

843
00:42:43,314 --> 00:42:44,754
Speaker 2: of don't know why else.

844
00:42:44,754 --> 00:42:47,594
Speaker 3: It feels vulnerable because people talk about feeling cringe when

845
00:42:47,634 --> 00:42:48,354
Speaker 3: they post something.

846
00:42:48,394 --> 00:42:50,873
Speaker 1: But why is that bad? Why don't we just leave

847
00:42:50,914 --> 00:42:51,913
Speaker 1: it to the professionals.

848
00:42:52,194 --> 00:42:54,634
Speaker 2: I suppose the reason why I worry about leaving it

849
00:42:54,674 --> 00:42:59,994
Speaker 2: to the inadverted commas professionals is because of the tone

850
00:43:00,034 --> 00:43:03,274
Speaker 2: of that conversation. You get the extremes on both sides.

851
00:43:03,994 --> 00:43:06,794
Speaker 2: You get the people like exactly what it said here,

852
00:43:06,954 --> 00:43:08,913
Speaker 2: get people who are provocative on.

853
00:43:08,874 --> 00:43:13,034
Speaker 3: Purpose professionals, and we don't want to do it anymore.

854
00:43:13,114 --> 00:43:15,034
Speaker 3: You haven't posted on social for a long time.

855
00:43:14,874 --> 00:43:15,513
Speaker 1: Have you? No?

856
00:43:15,754 --> 00:43:18,994
Speaker 2: But like normal people, sometimes I have to go on

857
00:43:18,994 --> 00:43:20,834
Speaker 2: to TikTok and I scroll and I scroll, or I

858
00:43:20,834 --> 00:43:23,274
Speaker 2: scroll on Instagram and I go The normal people aren't here.

859
00:43:23,954 --> 00:43:26,194
Speaker 2: The normal people have left this party. The normal people

860
00:43:26,234 --> 00:43:29,913
Speaker 2: are all watching. It's like, you know what, it's like.

861
00:43:29,994 --> 00:43:33,074
Speaker 2: It's a party and it's four am, and all the

862
00:43:33,154 --> 00:43:36,594
Speaker 2: normal people with normal lives went home and you look

863
00:43:36,634 --> 00:43:38,634
Speaker 2: around and you think all parties are like this all

864
00:43:38,634 --> 00:43:41,154
Speaker 2: of the time, And people are throwing things and there's

865
00:43:41,234 --> 00:43:43,914
Speaker 2: vomit in the corner and there's like people on the

866
00:43:43,954 --> 00:43:46,794
Speaker 2: hard drugs and you're just looking around, going this is

867
00:43:46,914 --> 00:43:47,634
Speaker 2: this is terrible.

868
00:43:47,754 --> 00:43:49,794
Speaker 1: People telling me about Amazon Prime sales.

869
00:43:50,074 --> 00:43:51,594
Speaker 3: People being way too intense.

870
00:43:51,754 --> 00:43:54,634
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's descended into chaos, and you go, what

871
00:43:54,794 --> 00:43:56,953
Speaker 2: has happened to parties? And it's like, no, no, no, it's

872
00:43:56,994 --> 00:43:58,634
Speaker 2: not the party, it's the people.

873
00:43:58,354 --> 00:43:59,034
Speaker 4: Who are left.

874
00:43:59,194 --> 00:44:02,074
Speaker 1: But on the flip side, Jesse, I'm going to attempt

875
00:44:02,074 --> 00:44:05,274
Speaker 1: a more optimistic take on this trend, which is maybe

876
00:44:05,314 --> 00:44:08,114
Speaker 1: the normal people quote unquote I have just realized that

877
00:44:08,354 --> 00:44:11,194
Speaker 1: real life is much better than social media, and now

878
00:44:11,194 --> 00:44:14,794
Speaker 1: they're prioritizing IROL experiences. This is my theory as to

879
00:44:14,834 --> 00:44:17,034
Speaker 1: why we've all suddenly become obsessed with tennis. Have you

880
00:44:17,114 --> 00:44:20,514
Speaker 1: noticed that, yes, I know you always liked. Yes, Yes,

881
00:44:20,634 --> 00:44:24,314
Speaker 1: everyone's watching the Wimbledon front row this year so much

882
00:44:24,354 --> 00:44:27,114
Speaker 1: more than they ever have in past years. And I

883
00:44:27,154 --> 00:44:30,914
Speaker 1: feel like the hype around sporting events, around the eras tour,

884
00:44:31,154 --> 00:44:34,274
Speaker 1: around live music generally is because people are turning to

885
00:44:34,354 --> 00:44:37,194
Speaker 1: real life more. They're valuing it more. And I've noticed

886
00:44:37,194 --> 00:44:40,154
Speaker 1: that even in my group chats, particularly with American friends,

887
00:44:40,594 --> 00:44:43,074
Speaker 1: because the enormity of what's going on is difficult to

888
00:44:43,114 --> 00:44:47,274
Speaker 1: summarize and get at. People are even retreating from group chats,

889
00:44:47,354 --> 00:44:50,074
Speaker 1: or maybe they're just not talking to me. Either way, Yes,

890
00:44:50,274 --> 00:44:50,794
Speaker 1: I can't.

891
00:44:50,634 --> 00:44:52,234
Speaker 3: Believe you haven't said the word capitalism.

892
00:44:52,474 --> 00:44:55,194
Speaker 2: That's the thing, right, is that these social media companies

893
00:44:55,394 --> 00:44:57,754
Speaker 2: couldn't charge any of us to be on it, right,

894
00:44:58,074 --> 00:44:58,874
Speaker 2: And in fact.

895
00:44:58,714 --> 00:45:00,074
Speaker 1: There are those pictures of our breakfast.

896
00:45:00,154 --> 00:45:02,794
Speaker 2: Yes, that incredible documentary called The Social Dilemma made the

897
00:45:02,834 --> 00:45:06,394
Speaker 2: point that it is one of the widest used products

898
00:45:06,634 --> 00:45:08,994
Speaker 2: that every one would refuse to pay for. In fact,

899
00:45:09,074 --> 00:45:11,634
Speaker 2: most people not only wouldn't pay a dollary use that,

900
00:45:11,674 --> 00:45:14,794
Speaker 2: they would pay a dollar not And the only people

901
00:45:14,834 --> 00:45:19,674
Speaker 2: who have upheld these companies is advertisers. And I think

902
00:45:19,674 --> 00:45:23,514
Speaker 2: that that's eroded trust. But the reason why Amelia, I

903
00:45:23,554 --> 00:45:28,234
Speaker 2: think your optimism is totally misguided is because people have

904
00:45:28,274 --> 00:45:30,874
Speaker 2: not left the party and gone home. They are standing

905
00:45:30,914 --> 00:45:34,473
Speaker 2: by the windows, addicted to watching what's going on. If

906
00:45:34,474 --> 00:45:36,714
Speaker 2: you looked at the time people are spending on social

907
00:45:36,754 --> 00:45:39,634
Speaker 2: media that hasn't gone down, that has not gone down.

908
00:45:40,234 --> 00:45:42,874
Speaker 3: That's the thing we're not posting. We're lurking.

909
00:45:42,954 --> 00:45:43,114
Speaker 1: Now.

910
00:45:43,554 --> 00:45:48,434
Speaker 3: Men have always been lurkers, right, Women have always been posters, commenters, likers, sharers,

911
00:45:48,994 --> 00:45:52,954
Speaker 3: but now women aren't doing that anymore, not as much.

912
00:45:53,394 --> 00:45:55,514
Speaker 3: And as Jesse said, we're looking through the window and

913
00:45:55,554 --> 00:45:57,514
Speaker 3: the problem with that. If we've just left the party,

914
00:45:57,594 --> 00:46:02,314
Speaker 3: that's different. Let them, you know, eat, But because we're

915
00:46:02,314 --> 00:46:06,674
Speaker 3: watching it, it's skewing our idea of reality.

916
00:46:07,314 --> 00:46:12,754
Speaker 2: The other element to why millennials in particular stopped posting

917
00:46:13,674 --> 00:46:18,514
Speaker 2: is because we watched as the dumb stuff that the

918
00:46:18,554 --> 00:46:20,674
Speaker 2: famous people posted got dug up.

919
00:46:21,154 --> 00:46:23,234
Speaker 3: So the dig which we've talked about on this show,

920
00:46:23,274 --> 00:46:24,034
Speaker 3: it was weaponized.

921
00:46:24,114 --> 00:46:25,194
Speaker 2: It was all weaponized.

922
00:46:25,234 --> 00:46:28,194
Speaker 1: So I think what happened was Trevor Noah, Yes, when

923
00:46:28,434 --> 00:46:31,033
Speaker 1: was that he was named to the Daily Show chair

924
00:46:31,114 --> 00:46:33,234
Speaker 1: after John Stewart left, So that was when the Daily

925
00:46:33,274 --> 00:46:36,993
Speaker 1: Show was absolutely at its peak. Trevor Noah was named

926
00:46:36,994 --> 00:46:39,553
Speaker 1: the new chair and people dug up all these sort

927
00:46:39,594 --> 00:46:42,114
Speaker 1: of fat phobic, fat shaming tweets.

928
00:46:42,394 --> 00:46:45,834
Speaker 2: How many careers like have been I mean destroyed might

929
00:46:45,874 --> 00:46:48,194
Speaker 2: be too big a word, but have been impacted.

930
00:46:48,554 --> 00:46:51,393
Speaker 3: What's that idea of social excavation, which is why you know,

931
00:46:51,434 --> 00:46:56,634
Speaker 3: when Lauren Sanchez Bezos got married, she wiped her Instagram.

932
00:46:56,714 --> 00:46:58,754
Speaker 3: It's this idea and if you look at a gen

933
00:46:58,874 --> 00:47:03,154
Speaker 3: Zeta or Jen Alfa's social they'll only have on Maine,

934
00:47:03,354 --> 00:47:06,234
Speaker 3: which is in their feed. They'll only have like three

935
00:47:06,314 --> 00:47:09,354
Speaker 3: or four posts. For millennials and gen X's it was

936
00:47:09,434 --> 00:47:11,514
Speaker 3: like a record of everything.

937
00:47:11,634 --> 00:47:14,834
Speaker 1: Every time we didn't avocado toast in a sun dappled room.

938
00:47:14,754 --> 00:47:16,794
Speaker 3: You go back and it was a record of our relationships.

939
00:47:16,794 --> 00:47:20,554
Speaker 3: It was almost like a public diary. But this idea

940
00:47:20,594 --> 00:47:24,074
Speaker 3: of being perceived and not wanting to be perceived, that's

941
00:47:24,114 --> 00:47:26,674
Speaker 3: something that gen Z's and jen alf Is are much

942
00:47:26,714 --> 00:47:30,314
Speaker 3: more savvy about because they don't want people drawing conclusions

943
00:47:30,674 --> 00:47:33,834
Speaker 3: about them because of something they posted two weeks ago,

944
00:47:33,874 --> 00:47:34,873
Speaker 3: let alone two years ago.

945
00:47:35,074 --> 00:47:38,314
Speaker 1: That's why Travis Kelsey and Taylor Swift have never followed

946
00:47:38,354 --> 00:47:41,634
Speaker 1: each other on Instagram because they know that the unfollow

947
00:47:41,714 --> 00:47:43,314
Speaker 1: would be such a big story.

948
00:47:43,434 --> 00:47:47,554
Speaker 2: Which I find it interesting that jen Alphas and Z's

949
00:47:47,674 --> 00:47:50,274
Speaker 2: have pulled back because when I look at my own

950
00:47:50,314 --> 00:47:53,954
Speaker 2: social media usage, and if I'm being entirely honest with myself,

951
00:47:54,714 --> 00:47:57,554
Speaker 2: I think it was indexed a lot on whether or

952
00:47:57,634 --> 00:48:00,674
Speaker 2: not I was courting, like in my single life. So

953
00:48:01,194 --> 00:48:04,714
Speaker 2: I wonder if too, if you're on sort of hinge

954
00:48:05,194 --> 00:48:06,514
Speaker 2: or you're on bumble and.

955
00:48:06,554 --> 00:48:09,194
Speaker 3: You're but it's it's more curately dating. It's more curated

956
00:48:09,274 --> 00:48:10,794
Speaker 3: and with less shots.

957
00:48:10,594 --> 00:48:12,393
Speaker 2: Because you won't be paved when you're seeing You.

958
00:48:12,434 --> 00:48:14,913
Speaker 3: Don't want someone going back and seeing pictures of you

959
00:48:15,314 --> 00:48:18,234
Speaker 3: with your exes, or you don't necessarily want to be

960
00:48:18,434 --> 00:48:22,114
Speaker 3: known in that public way, whereas our generation it felt

961
00:48:22,154 --> 00:48:25,434
Speaker 3: like we really wanted to be known. It's like remember

962
00:48:25,474 --> 00:48:27,714
Speaker 3: my Space, which it was like what are your favorite books?

963
00:48:27,714 --> 00:48:28,754
Speaker 3: What are your favorite movie?

964
00:48:28,834 --> 00:48:31,194
Speaker 1: It happened quickly, Like I remember, I had my first

965
00:48:31,274 --> 00:48:34,554
Speaker 1: child in twenty eighteen, and practically the first thing I

966
00:48:34,594 --> 00:48:38,314
Speaker 1: did was post a picture of him on Instagram. By

967
00:48:38,314 --> 00:48:40,274
Speaker 1: the time I had my second child in twenty twenty,

968
00:48:40,314 --> 00:48:42,794
Speaker 1: I was not putting a photo of her on the

969
00:48:42,794 --> 00:48:43,513
Speaker 1: internet ever.

970
00:48:44,034 --> 00:48:44,354
Speaker 4: Yeah.

971
00:48:44,394 --> 00:48:47,434
Speaker 2: Wow, A big thank you to all of you the

972
00:48:47,474 --> 00:48:49,954
Speaker 2: out loud as well. We we are done. That was

973
00:48:49,994 --> 00:48:53,033
Speaker 2: great for listening to today's show and our fabulous team

974
00:48:53,114 --> 00:48:55,754
Speaker 2: for putting this show together. We'll be back in your

975
00:48:55,794 --> 00:48:57,554
Speaker 2: ears tomorrow. Bye.

976
00:48:58,794 --> 00:49:02,154
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Muma Maya subscribers listening. If you

977
00:49:02,194 --> 00:49:04,554
Speaker 3: love the show and want to support us as well,

978
00:49:04,754 --> 00:49:07,234
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mom and Maya is the very best way

979
00:49:07,234 --> 00:49:09,714
Speaker 3: to do so there is a link in the episode description.