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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Momma Mia. Out loud What women

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Speaker 3: are actually talking about? On Monday, the twenty first of July,

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Speaker 3: excuse me, I went on holiday and our tagline appears

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Speaker 3: to have changed again.

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Speaker 2: What's going on?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 1: I was bored of the old one. And also sometimes

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Speaker 1: people got upset because if we talked about something that

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Speaker 1: they weren't talking about, they tried to say that they

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Speaker 1: weren't talking about it. So I tried to make for

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Speaker 1: gender happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was like fetch.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't make it happen. You know, one like to

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Speaker 1: axing me.

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Speaker 4: What women are talking about is the truest to out loud.

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Speaker 4: I was saying before. I feel like we came into

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Speaker 4: work with a loud hat on. We tried to see

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Speaker 4: if it suited us and if people gave us compliments.

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Speaker 4: Neither of those things happened, and now we're coming back

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Speaker 4: to work the next day without the hat and we're

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Speaker 4: not saying anything We tried to say.

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Speaker 1: Women come to debrief that that just sounded a bit defeated.

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Speaker 1: It sounded passive, and we're nothing if not inconsistent.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, look, I'm Holly Wainwright. I'm maist High Holidays,

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Speaker 3: and I think we're thinking about ourselves a little too much.

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Speaker 2: That's what I do.

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Speaker 4: That'll be a thing true. I'm me A Friedman and

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Speaker 4: I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And here is what is on our agenda for today.

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Speaker 4: The moment that brought the Internet together we need to

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Speaker 4: unpack in a revolting amount of detail, the Coldplay kiss

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Speaker 4: Can discourse.

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Speaker 1: I can't wait.

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Speaker 3: Also, my imaginary friend Gwyneth Paltrow is the subject of

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Speaker 3: a tea soaked new unauthorized biography or.

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Speaker 1: Is she plus main character? Energy is ruining our public spaces.

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Speaker 1: People are pooing in public pools and adams, yes, adults

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Speaker 1: and newly returned europe correspondent has some stories to share.

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Speaker 4: But first, I just wanted to thank me out louders

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Speaker 4: for all their lovely messages. At the end of last week,

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Speaker 4: after I shared a story about pregnancy loss, I was

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Speaker 4: in undated with messages, all of them so kind like

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Speaker 4: our out louder community is just remarkable. And I was

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Speaker 4: listening to an episode of Ezracline recently and he was

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Speaker 4: speaking to this person who's a Buddhist, and the Buddhist

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Speaker 4: was saying that there's a story that they tell about

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Speaker 4: a woman who's grieving, and the Buddha says, if you

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Speaker 4: want to recover, you just have to go and find

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Speaker 4: this mustard seed. But you have to find it, you

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Speaker 4: have to go around and ask this whole village, find

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Speaker 4: it from someone who has never experienced grief. And so

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Speaker 4: she goes and tries to find this mustard seed, and

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Speaker 4: of course every house that she enters, they too have

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Speaker 4: their own story of grief. And why that story is

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Speaker 4: so powerful is because it's in that connection and realizing

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Speaker 4: that whatever pain you're in right now is being experienced

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Speaker 4: by people all of the time. I think when we

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Speaker 4: get stuck in pain, it's because we think no one

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Speaker 4: else is feeling how we feel. Yeah, and I actually

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Speaker 4: found it.

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Speaker 1: It's the loneliness of it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I don't feel lonely. And there were people

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Speaker 4: that I know who said to me, I had a

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Speaker 4: miscarriage on the same day, like that's how common it is.

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Speaker 4: But having people put words around it was just so

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Speaker 4: so so comforting. So thank you to the out louders.

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Speaker 4: And I also have a confession to add to that,

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Speaker 4: which is, if you saw me with shopping bags over

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Speaker 4: the weekend, it couldn't.

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Speaker 1: Have been you because you're not buying.

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Speaker 2: You're not. Twenty twenty five is don't buy anything year

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Speaker 2: for Jesse friends.

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Speaker 4: I was feeling pain.

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Speaker 1: The year is thrift.

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Speaker 4: I thought, what would Maya Friedman do?

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Speaker 2: Should do? I should go and buy something.

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Speaker 4: And the Maya it helped. I'm sorry, I'm sorry I've

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Speaker 4: been thrifting, but trying to get secondhand jeans is too hard,

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Speaker 4: and so I went, you know what, Jesse, be kind

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Speaker 4: to yourself and go and buy some new things, and

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Speaker 4: it did help. I'm not going to do it again,

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Speaker 4: but I just have to confess because I'm sure out

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Speaker 4: louders saw me, and I'm sure that they were going

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Speaker 4: to write an unauthorized biography about the time Jesse broke

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Speaker 4: her promise.

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Speaker 1: I recommend it. Some people eat their feelings. I shop

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Speaker 1: for my feelings. Help.

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Speaker 3: It does help us, Ah, Jesse, I listened obviously to

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Speaker 3: what you said, and like all those out louders who

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Speaker 3: contacted you, I just thought it was brilliantly put and

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Speaker 3: thank you for sharing it now they're making you feel

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Speaker 3: the way you made them.

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Speaker 5: Hmmm, we'd like to say hello to some of you

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Speaker 5: in the crowd. How are we going to do that is,

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Speaker 5: we're going to use our cameras and put some of

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Speaker 5: the other big screen. So please, if you haven't done

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Speaker 5: your makeup, do your makeup now.

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Speaker 4: This time a week ago, very few people knew the

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Speaker 4: name or were familiar with the face of CEO Andy Byron,

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Speaker 4: a married man and father of two. Byron decided on

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Speaker 4: Wednesday night to attend a Coldplay concert in Boston, which would,

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Speaker 4: as it happens, blow up his entire life. So here's

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Speaker 4: what actually happened. Coldplay was playing the Jumbo t So

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Speaker 4: when a kiss cam landed on a man and a

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Speaker 4: woman cuddling and they were watching the.

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Speaker 3: Stage, is a kiss cam supposed to be? I know

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Speaker 3: this is a really dumb question, but you know there

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Speaker 3: are no dumb questions. When the camera lands on you.

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Speaker 3: You're meant to like do a little performance for it,

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Speaker 3: aren't you? Like do a kiss play to it?

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Speaker 4: And this is a thing that happens at Coldplay concerts, right,

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Speaker 4: and some football games. And yes, and they go and

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Speaker 4: scout like the videographer who's there goes and scouts people

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Speaker 4: and sort of says, okay, let's go to these these people.

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Speaker 4: They look quite cuddly, and so went to this couple.

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Speaker 4: But something really unusual happened, which was that they jumped

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Speaker 4: apart and immediately attempted to hide their faces, and Chris Martin,

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Speaker 4: who's the lead singer of Coldplay, said.

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Speaker 5: Oh, what either having an affair or.

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Speaker 4: I hope we didn't do something bad. Now we can

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Speaker 4: argue about who might have done something bad, but something

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Speaker 4: very bad did indeed happen. A twenty eight year old

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Speaker 4: named Grace Springer filmed that moment and then she uploaded

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Speaker 4: it to social media, and by the following day, the

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Speaker 4: pair had been identified.

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Speaker 1: Why did she do that? Out of interest? Like she

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Speaker 1: actually interviews everybody involved made content.

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Speaker 4: She says that she saw it and when all something

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Speaker 4: tense has happened here, I'm not quite sure what it is.

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Speaker 4: I'll upload it and let the internet figure it out.

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Speaker 4: Because she thought if either of those partners are watching,

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Speaker 4: like they have the right to know.

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Speaker 1: So she thought she was doing God's work.

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Speaker 3: She thought she was I think she showed it to

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Speaker 3: her friends, and her friends all went, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: you've got to upload about it, and it's.

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Speaker 4: Going to go viral, viewed more than one hundred million times.

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Speaker 4: I want to ask before we go any further, tell

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Speaker 4: me what your initial reaction was when you saw this

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Speaker 4: video at the end of last week.

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Speaker 5: Ma'am.

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Speaker 1: I thought this is incredible, Oh my god, and I

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Speaker 1: sort of laughed a little bit. Yeah, but there, I

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Speaker 1: guess because we work in the media and we're very

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Speaker 1: familiar with, you know, public shaming and virality. I felt

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Speaker 1: a bit sick from the beginning because I get very

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Speaker 1: caught up in how people's lives can change in an instant.

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Speaker 1: You know Lee's sales book Any Ordinary Day, where she

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Speaker 1: talks to people who've suffered tragedies, usually accidents or the

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Speaker 1: loss of a loved one very suddenly. And I know

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Speaker 1: this isn't that, but that sense of even when you

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Speaker 1: were just saying that they woke up and they went

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Speaker 1: let's and you know, it turns out they were having

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Speaker 1: an affair, but they went, let's go to this Coldplay concert,

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Speaker 1: and you think about them, every step they took and

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Speaker 1: every single decision that got to that point, and then oblivion.

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Speaker 4: Holly, how about you? How did you respond when you

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Speaker 4: first saw it, Well, I.

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Speaker 3: Just thought it was really juicy. I was immediately like,

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Speaker 3: what an idiot? Those were my first thoughts. It's like,

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Speaker 3: and I don't know why, but of course I thought

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Speaker 3: he was an idiot rather than her. That's my own

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Speaker 3: personal prejudice. I thought, what absolute idiot, and then I

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Speaker 3: went ha ha ha. And then of course I didn't

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Speaker 3: necessarily keep thinking that.

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Speaker 4: I do agree that I thought it was very funny

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Speaker 4: and immediately wanted to send it to people because I

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Speaker 4: was like, I think as well, there was this moment

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Speaker 4: of like, doesn't everyone know a CEO or a CEO

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Speaker 4: coded person who has or is currently cheating on their

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Speaker 4: wife and appears to experience no repercussions as a result.

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Speaker 3: And also that in that I mean and we didn't

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Speaker 3: know this when we very first saw it, but when

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Speaker 3: it became apparent the story of who they were, a

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Speaker 3: lot of people cheat with people at work like that

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Speaker 3: is a place that happens a lot, and if those

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Speaker 3: people are particularly senior, often a lot of people within

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Speaker 3: the business will know that that's happening, but it's just

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Speaker 3: all accepted that we just don't talk about it, and

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Speaker 3: all those kind of things. Originally, I thought, oh, imagine

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Speaker 3: if they were all, like the whole team was there.

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Speaker 2: You know, that isn't what turned out to have happened.

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Speaker 3: But I told myself many stories, and then I started

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Speaker 3: to see all those like letters to this man's wife

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Speaker 3: and everything on the internet, and I was like, oh, dear,

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Speaker 3: I sound.

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Speaker 1: A bit sactimonious when I say that, like what I

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Speaker 1: said before, because it's not like I also didn't go, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was jucy. And I wanted to know cause I

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Speaker 1: wanted to know more. Who's she, Who's he? How that? What?

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Speaker 1: You know? I wanted. I was hungry to know the story.

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Speaker 4: So the more came, as happens with the internet. Byron

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Speaker 4: is fifty. He was the CEO of Astronomers, which is

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Speaker 4: a tech firm, and the woman he was with was

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Speaker 4: revealed to be Kristen Cabot. She is the chief people

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Speaker 4: officer the same company, and there's ambiguity about whether she

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Speaker 4: is still married or recently separated. Right, we know that

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Speaker 4: Byron married two kids. By Friday, both Byron and Cabot

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Speaker 4: had been put on leave by their company, and by Saturday,

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Speaker 4: Byron had resigned as CEO. She also has two kids, right,

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Speaker 4: I believe, So what's that?

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Speaker 3: Do you think that the put them on leave and

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Speaker 3: resignation was inevitable? Like, is that how it would play

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Speaker 3: in a corporate sense? You think me are always well?

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Speaker 1: Before that, there was the statement that he allegedly made,

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Speaker 1: which everybody shared and of people reacted to.

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Speaker 4: So what's interesting is that this was one of the

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Speaker 4: first viral moments in the age of AI, and so

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Speaker 4: what happened was an influx of things where everyone sat

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Speaker 4: there going is this real? Even I think the kiscam footage,

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Speaker 4: it was sort of like is this real? So there

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Speaker 4: was fake stak it a bit, yeah, fake tweets and

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Speaker 4: this isn't AI related. But I was on TikTok watching

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Speaker 4: his daughter post these tiktoks that said reconnecting with life

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Speaker 4: after your dad's affair makes national news. I went deep

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Speaker 4: on her. It turns out that was not his daughter.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't have a daughter.

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Speaker 4: He didn't have a daughter. So there was a coldplay

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Speaker 4: tweet that read, starting with our next show, We're introducing

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Speaker 4: camera free audience sections for people in their side pieces.

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Speaker 2: Fake funny.

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Speaker 4: Then the statement from Andy Byron. I believe that there

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Speaker 4: were multiple ones, but there was one you might have

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Speaker 4: seen where he expressed how troubling it was that a

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Speaker 4: private moment became public without his consent.

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Speaker 1: And the reason that I thought that was interesting is

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Speaker 1: because that spoke to you know, we often talk about

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Speaker 1: the second idea or the third idea, which is everybody

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Speaker 1: reacts in one way, but then what's the bigger issue?

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Speaker 1: Right if you zoom out? And I think that the

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Speaker 1: reason that so many people were fooled by that statement.

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Speaker 1: The only time I got a bit sus is when

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Speaker 1: he quoted a culture.

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Speaker 4: How it ended.

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Speaker 1: But before that I was on board because it followed

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Speaker 1: the template of public statements, public apologies, because we know

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Speaker 1: that in a vacuum people will make stuff up, right,

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Speaker 1: so you've got to you know that the first rule

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Speaker 1: of crisis pr is that you've got to try and

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Speaker 1: take control of the situation, to try and corterize the wound.

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Speaker 1: And what he said about a private situation became public

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Speaker 1: that way and taking time to think and learn and reflect.

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Speaker 1: All of that was like tick tick tick tick, but

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Speaker 1: then it was fake.

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Speaker 4: It also reminded us. I think of how if any

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Speaker 4: of us were to go viral in an hour, what

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Speaker 4: can be found from LinkedIn profiles from the dig online

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Speaker 4: what they were able to find all of his family.

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Speaker 4: His wife had to, you know, go super private in

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Speaker 4: order to not have their detail shared.

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Speaker 1: She took down her surname from her profile. Then she

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Speaker 1: deleted family photos. Because we've got our journalistic hats on.

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Speaker 1: The first place, this is the biggest story in the world.

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Speaker 1: The first place you go is what's on Instagram. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because that's publicly usable, right.

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Speaker 2: But how ridiculous this is the biggest story in the world. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and we'll get to why that executives. Yeah, cheating at

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Speaker 2: a Coldplay concert?

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Speaker 1: Why do you think? Because as an example of that, Jesse,

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Speaker 1: I was on Reddit yesterday and I was doing a

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Speaker 1: search because you're right. By last night it became really

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Speaker 1: confusing about what was real and what was real. And

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Speaker 1: I follow lots of different threads on Reddit. And what

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Speaker 1: was interesting about why this was such a huge story

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Speaker 1: is that the tech threads were about it, the work

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Speaker 1: threads were about it, the gossip threads were about it,

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Speaker 1: the news threads were about it. Like the ven diagram

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Speaker 1: of all the different places at time.

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Speaker 4: The reason that happened, I reckon, is because the Internet

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Speaker 4: is so divided and so contented, amptuous, and we are

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Speaker 4: constantly at each other, probably in the last few years

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Speaker 4: more than ever before. And for the last four days,

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Speaker 4: the internet has had a common enemy. We have all

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Speaker 4: been united and even the means I don't know find

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Speaker 4: that's true.

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Speaker 1: Do you think we have a common enemy? I don't see.

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Speaker 4: Well, everyone almost looked at it. It was like everyone's

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Speaker 4: laugh immediately was like sucked in, You're having an affair.

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Speaker 4: And isn't that calma like.

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Speaker 1: Real shaden for it?

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly for women whose husbands have cheated on them

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Speaker 3: and they have found out but humiliated. There's no question

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Speaker 3: that he in particular was an instant villain. But unfortunately

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Speaker 3: what has happened, which is always what happens, is that then,

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Speaker 3: as you've said, you know, his wife gets her privacy

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Speaker 3: horrifically invaded. Her picture is all over the internet. Here

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Speaker 3: are five things you didn't know about the CEO's wife,

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Speaker 3: you know, and then the woman in question also obviously

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Speaker 3: the twenty five things you didn't know about her, and

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Speaker 3: before you know it, the shit really is smeared everywhere

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Speaker 3: all over everybody involved. So if it started with an

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Speaker 3: almost like oh, this is quite satisfying watching this powerful

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Speaker 3: man being sort of humiliated.

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Speaker 2: That isn't really what happened.

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Speaker 4: And the dig then happened. We're recording this on you know,

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Speaker 4: Monday morning. He has made no statement yet, but his

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Speaker 4: salary has since been revealed as being in the ballpark

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Speaker 4: of about a million Australian dollars a year, and a

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Speaker 4: LinkedIn post that relevant. Well, I think that it adds

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Speaker 4: to the idea that this is an entitled.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: I think if he was a teacher and she was

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Speaker 3: a nurse, this story is not as good.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no question, because then there's also this thing of like,

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Speaker 4: if he's having an affair with someone at work, what

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Speaker 4: are the power dynamics there? That's interesting. Then a post

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Speaker 4: on LinkedIn by the editor in chief of Forbes Australia

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Speaker 4: was about how there's barely any gender diversity. It looks

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Speaker 4: like she might be the only one kind of in

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Speaker 4: the higher in the leadership teams that's a female.

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Speaker 1: Don't you think it's become I mean in the age

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Speaker 1: of the hot take, where everybody needs to have a

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Speaker 1: hot take to get engagement, to get traffic. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about it today, right but everybody then projecting

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Speaker 1: their lens onto it. So is it about diversity in

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Speaker 1: the leadership team? Is it about the cheated wife? Is

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Speaker 1: it about public spaces and what's private? Is it about AI?

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Speaker 1: Now all the pieces are running out about AI and

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Speaker 1: what's so hard? You know that thing about lives make

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Speaker 1: their way around the world three times before the truth

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Speaker 1: can do up at shoes. We were talking in our

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Speaker 1: slack journal last night, and a lot of us were

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Speaker 1: at very different parts of the story. Like some of

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Speaker 1: us really believed that the other woman in the video

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Speaker 1: was their head of HR and that she'd recently been promoted,

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Speaker 1: and other people knew that wasn't true. And then some

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Speaker 1: of us thought his daughter's on TikTok, and others knew

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't true. So most people got little bits

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Speaker 1: of the story.

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Speaker 4: And I think most people are just at the memes, right,

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Speaker 4: Like most people are just consuming this as a series

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Speaker 4: of funny memes and they see as it is, here

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Speaker 4: is this kind of ideologue that represents the Master of

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Speaker 4: the universe, a particular type of man, as we said,

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Speaker 4: which maybe he is that.

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Speaker 1: But it also maybe he isn't.

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Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, And facing the wrath of the potentially tens

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Speaker 4: of millions of women who have either experienced this or

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Speaker 4: seen it happen, who then have somewhere to project their

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Speaker 4: fury and their anger at the dishonesty of some men.

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Speaker 4: That irks me, like, I'm starting to feel a bit

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Speaker 4: sick about this whole thing. And then I saw Grace Springer,

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Speaker 4: the woman who shared the video, right, and she's been

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Speaker 4: interviewed and everything. Her most recent or one of her

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Speaker 4: most recent Instagram stories was, you're so welcome for today's entertainment.

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Speaker 4: Want to show your gratitude? Help me who is just

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Speaker 4: a girl payoff eighty thousand dollars in student lines? And

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Speaker 4: now she's got a link and you can go and

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Speaker 4: help her pay off their student lins. So everyone who

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Speaker 4: can is capitalizing off this viral moment.

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Speaker 2: It's just a desperate need for distraction.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: The world is a scary place.

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Speaker 3: We could spend forty eight hours obsessing over this story

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Speaker 3: and making celebrities out of all of the people in

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Speaker 3: it for five minutes, and no one will remember this

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Speaker 3: in twenty four hours, and those people's lives are ruined.

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Speaker 3: Is it their fault or not? Is a bit of

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Speaker 3: a matter of opinion. But there's interesting.

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Speaker 1: On that for one second, because I'm interested in the

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Speaker 1: idea of the punishment in the crime, right, So I

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Speaker 1: think we can all agree that what they did was

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Speaker 1: not good.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't appear to be good.

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Speaker 3: He and his wife were separated and have been operated

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Speaker 3: for a long time. She has not spoken on the record, dography,

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Speaker 3: We have no idea, so a lot of assumptions are

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Speaker 3: being made.

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Speaker 1: Right, So if we all agree cheating is not good,

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Speaker 1: if that's in fact what happened, but what should the

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Speaker 1: punishment for that be? Should it be that you your

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Speaker 1: reputation is forever destroyed, that the entire world is united

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Speaker 1: in laughing at you, that you lose your career, that

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Speaker 1: you lose your means to feed your family, that you're utterly, utterly,

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Speaker 1: abjectly humiliated.

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Speaker 4: Is that totally like that's disproportionate. Yeah, because the affair,

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Speaker 4: whether the affair goes against company policy is even a question,

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Speaker 4: right because it's like, if that had just been discovered,

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Speaker 4: would that have been an issue or a conflict of interest?

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Speaker 4: But the kiss cam element, what I like to think

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Speaker 4: about is what if they just kissed, and they just kissed,

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Speaker 4: and this would never.

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Speaker 2: Have gone viral. That's true, it wouldn't have got anything.

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Speaker 4: It was the reaction, which I completely understand why they

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Speaker 4: reacted like that, but it was that that kind of

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Speaker 4: suggested some guilt. I understand why Chris Martin kind of went.

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Speaker 3: Oh, if he hadn't have said what he said, it

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Speaker 3: probably which is I'm not saying we should be blaming

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Speaker 3: Chris Martin. Yeah, but like if he hadn't have said

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Speaker 3: what he said about either you're cheating or you're just

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Speaker 3: very shy, then Grace the young woman posted this probably

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have thought twice about it.

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Speaker 2: No one would have thought twice about it.

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Speaker 3: You're right, their guilty reaction to it started the story

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Speaker 3: in point about what they deserve for that. Me, you're

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Speaker 3: so right to be honest. I mean, again, this is assumption,

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Speaker 3: just as much as it's an assumption to pretend we

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Speaker 3: know the inner workings of either of their marriages.

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Speaker 2: Life probably isn't going to be ruined.

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Speaker 3: Like high profile CEOs have gone away with all kinds

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Speaker 3: of affairs for a very long time, and they get

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Speaker 3: another job and another job, and it might just be

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Speaker 3: acquired a job, but you know, no one knew who

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Speaker 3: he was a week ago, and no one will know

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Speaker 3: who he is in a couple of months. The collateral

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Speaker 3: damage around him, I don't agree.

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Speaker 1: I actually don't agree with that, because I mean, he's

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Speaker 1: not Jeff Bezos, right, So yes, you're right, someone like

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Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg or Donald Trump, nothing's going

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Speaker 1: to touch them.

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Speaker 4: But he doesn't feeding even the feeding his family point,

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Speaker 4: it's like when you see the salary, there's a world

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Speaker 4: in which we all kind of got to kilby.

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Speaker 3: I think that the he'll be fine thing is why

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Speaker 3: people feel comfortable laughing about it. You know how I

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Speaker 3: said before, this is a different story if he's not him.

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying that's right, but that's why, because we

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Speaker 3: don't really feel like he's going to be a victim.

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Speaker 3: We've all read a million stories about men who've harassed

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Speaker 3: women at work, never mind had affairs, but still go

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Speaker 3: on to get another good job, and another good job,

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Speaker 3: another good job. What's also interesting about this, though, and

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Speaker 3: we're going to talk in a minute about how we

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Speaker 3: all want to be main characters now, is this is

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Speaker 3: the sort of stuff that only used to happen to

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Speaker 3: famous people like who could forget those paparazzi pictures of

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Speaker 3: Kristin Stewart pashing her director Rupert Sanders when she was

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Speaker 3: still with Robert Pattinson, and there were these paparazzi pictures.

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Speaker 3: They're some of the most famous ones of all time

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Speaker 3: of them canoodling somewhere in a canyon in.

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Speaker 2: La or whatever, and it.

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Speaker 3: Went around the world in an instant, his wife, her relationship.

436
00:20:31,901 --> 00:20:34,501
Speaker 3: But this used to be that's what happens when you're

437
00:20:34,542 --> 00:20:38,222
Speaker 3: famous and you've corded the attention and you've asked for it,

438
00:20:38,341 --> 00:20:42,262
Speaker 3: and then you have no privacy. Now, because the Internet

439
00:20:42,262 --> 00:20:45,542
Speaker 3: can turn any of us into a celebrity, amenable celebrity

440
00:20:45,901 --> 00:20:49,901
Speaker 3: within three minutes. All of us have that level of

441
00:20:49,942 --> 00:20:52,061
Speaker 3: scrutiny around the corner.

442
00:20:51,782 --> 00:20:57,542
Speaker 4: And we're treating each other like interactive reality shows. And

443
00:20:58,141 --> 00:21:00,422
Speaker 4: we're at a show on Saturday night. Nicki Glazer, who

444
00:21:00,661 --> 00:21:04,661
Speaker 4: is a comedian, she hosted the Oscars this year, and

445
00:21:04,742 --> 00:21:06,861
Speaker 4: she made a joke about this, which I thought was

446
00:21:06,861 --> 00:21:09,821
Speaker 4: actually quite funny, where she went around and showed people

447
00:21:09,861 --> 00:21:11,421
Speaker 4: on the screen and even if she was doing that,

448
00:21:11,462 --> 00:21:14,661
Speaker 4: I went, that's my worst nightmare to be broadcast in

449
00:21:14,702 --> 00:21:17,701
Speaker 4: front of all these people. Five thousand and six thousand people.

450
00:21:18,101 --> 00:21:20,221
Speaker 4: But then the idea that you could then be broadcast

451
00:21:20,262 --> 00:21:23,341
Speaker 4: to whoever chooses to film it is a whole other ballgame.

452
00:21:23,621 --> 00:21:25,821
Speaker 4: But then they eventually the last one that they got

453
00:21:25,861 --> 00:21:29,142
Speaker 4: to was Lisa Wilkinson being embraced by Hamish Blake, which

454
00:21:29,262 --> 00:21:32,542
Speaker 4: was the joke, which was actually very funny. But then

455
00:21:32,581 --> 00:21:34,821
Speaker 4: of course someone to film that and then that's gone

456
00:21:35,341 --> 00:21:39,022
Speaker 4: viral as well. So the platform of it, I think

457
00:21:39,101 --> 00:21:40,782
Speaker 4: is just terrified, the.

458
00:21:40,782 --> 00:21:45,542
Speaker 1: Saturation, like there's no one of any generation presumably. I've

459
00:21:45,581 --> 00:21:47,221
Speaker 1: got a friend whose overseas at the moment, and she

460
00:21:47,262 --> 00:21:50,141
Speaker 1: was in an aerobi in an uber and the uber

461
00:21:50,222 --> 00:21:52,941
Speaker 1: driver who didn't speak English, was laughing with her about

462
00:21:52,942 --> 00:21:56,141
Speaker 1: it and about coldplay. It's the scale that's hard to

463
00:21:56,141 --> 00:21:57,021
Speaker 1: get your head around.

464
00:21:57,101 --> 00:21:59,661
Speaker 4: Yeah, it ends up being connective tissue between people. It's

465
00:21:59,702 --> 00:22:02,662
Speaker 4: small talk, it's fodder, it's stuff for a comedy show.

466
00:22:02,581 --> 00:22:05,542
Speaker 1: And everyone wants the next instrument. So yeah, my question

467
00:22:05,702 --> 00:22:08,661
Speaker 1: is when will we walk away from this story? What

468
00:22:08,821 --> 00:22:13,462
Speaker 1: will satis by our appetite for resolution of this narrative.

469
00:22:13,542 --> 00:22:15,941
Speaker 3: It probably depends what happens next, right, because there's a

470
00:22:15,982 --> 00:22:19,422
Speaker 3: world where the woman in the video decides to come

471
00:22:19,422 --> 00:22:21,661
Speaker 3: out and tell a story and do an interview, or

472
00:22:21,742 --> 00:22:23,661
Speaker 3: the wife comes out and does that, or you know,

473
00:22:23,782 --> 00:22:27,102
Speaker 3: they perpetuate the story in whatever way that will keep

474
00:22:27,141 --> 00:22:30,661
Speaker 3: it going. But there's also a very strong likelihood that

475
00:22:30,702 --> 00:22:33,382
Speaker 3: this will die away very quickly, like all our memorable

476
00:22:33,502 --> 00:22:35,941
Speaker 3: Internet obsessions do, and in a couple of months we'll

477
00:22:35,942 --> 00:22:37,621
Speaker 3: all be going, can you remember that time when we

478
00:22:37,661 --> 00:22:40,022
Speaker 3: were all obsessed with that CEO? Whatever happened to him?

479
00:22:40,101 --> 00:22:43,662
Speaker 3: Like it kind of depends what happens next.

480
00:22:44,061 --> 00:22:47,381
Speaker 1: In a moment. From Polarate's classes to cafes, concerts to

481
00:22:47,502 --> 00:22:52,422
Speaker 1: tourist destinations, public spaces have been overtaken by main character Syndrome.

482
00:22:52,621 --> 00:22:54,302
Speaker 1: Holly is going to tell us what it's like in

483
00:22:54,381 --> 00:22:57,581
Speaker 1: Rome and Paris and London right now.

484
00:22:59,821 --> 00:23:03,622
Speaker 3: Sixteen year olds will be voting in the next UK election.

485
00:23:04,302 --> 00:23:07,141
Speaker 3: When the Labor Party won government in Britain last year,

486
00:23:07,262 --> 00:23:10,581
Speaker 3: one of their key manifesto promises is that they would

487
00:23:10,621 --> 00:23:13,381
Speaker 3: lower the voting age from eighteen to sixteen, and they're

488
00:23:13,381 --> 00:23:13,861
Speaker 3: doing it.

489
00:23:14,422 --> 00:23:18,702
Speaker 1: I have a question, yes, why because the people who

490
00:23:18,782 --> 00:23:21,782
Speaker 1: would maybe be excited about that have not been allowed

491
00:23:21,782 --> 00:23:22,661
Speaker 1: to vote in that election.

492
00:23:22,742 --> 00:23:24,902
Speaker 4: Now, why is it so popular so yes, Why.

493
00:23:24,742 --> 00:23:26,661
Speaker 1: Is it so popular? Why would you go, yeah, you

494
00:23:26,661 --> 00:23:28,861
Speaker 1: know what, my children need to be able to vote.

495
00:23:28,901 --> 00:23:31,302
Speaker 3: Well, when you think about it, it sounds kind of wild.

496
00:23:31,422 --> 00:23:34,742
Speaker 3: But even here in Australia, it was only in nineteen

497
00:23:34,821 --> 00:23:37,821
Speaker 3: seventy three that they lowered the voting age from twenty

498
00:23:37,821 --> 00:23:39,741
Speaker 3: one to eighteen, So it used to be seen as

499
00:23:39,821 --> 00:23:43,061
Speaker 3: ridiculous that you would let anyone between eighteen and twenty

500
00:23:43,061 --> 00:23:45,422
Speaker 3: one vote. That adults were twenty one and that was it.

501
00:23:45,542 --> 00:23:48,582
Speaker 4: And whether it's true or not, there is a sense

502
00:23:48,942 --> 00:23:51,542
Speaker 4: that young people will vote more progressively.

503
00:23:51,341 --> 00:23:53,661
Speaker 3: So often it is popular with left wing parties, but

504
00:23:53,702 --> 00:23:56,061
Speaker 3: that doesn't actually turn out to be true. But the

505
00:23:56,262 --> 00:23:59,621
Speaker 3: argument is that at sixteen years old, you can work,

506
00:23:59,742 --> 00:24:01,941
Speaker 3: you can pay tax, and you can fight for your country,

507
00:24:01,982 --> 00:24:05,262
Speaker 3: so why can't you vote, And that seems to be

508
00:24:05,462 --> 00:24:06,462
Speaker 3: you have a lot of resonance.

509
00:24:06,581 --> 00:24:07,421
Speaker 1: You can make a baby.

510
00:24:07,502 --> 00:24:11,861
Speaker 3: Here in Australia, Independent MP Manique Ryan is going to

511
00:24:11,861 --> 00:24:13,982
Speaker 3: table the bill here too. It was last tabled here

512
00:24:13,982 --> 00:24:16,302
Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen by the Greens and it was chucked

513
00:24:16,302 --> 00:24:18,141
Speaker 3: out because one of the arguments here is but we

514
00:24:18,222 --> 00:24:20,222
Speaker 3: have compulsory voting and can you make a.

515
00:24:20,182 --> 00:24:21,421
Speaker 2: Sixteen year old vote.

516
00:24:21,702 --> 00:24:24,141
Speaker 3: But Manique Ryan's bringing it back in light of the

517
00:24:24,222 --> 00:24:26,901
Speaker 3: UK thing and saying, well, why don't we make it

518
00:24:26,942 --> 00:24:29,462
Speaker 3: so that you it is compulsory, but you won't find

519
00:24:29,502 --> 00:24:31,341
Speaker 3: them if they don't do it, So it's kind of

520
00:24:31,422 --> 00:24:34,302
Speaker 3: like soft compulsory. So it looks like it might happen

521
00:24:34,302 --> 00:24:35,581
Speaker 3: here too. What do we think about it?

522
00:24:35,982 --> 00:24:42,221
Speaker 4: I feel surprisingly not that passionate about allowing sixteen year

523
00:24:42,262 --> 00:24:45,262
Speaker 4: olds to vote. I feel as though, as someone who

524
00:24:45,302 --> 00:24:47,861
Speaker 4: considers myself progressive, it is something that I should be

525
00:24:47,861 --> 00:24:51,262
Speaker 4: fighting for. But I keep hearing the argument young people,

526
00:24:51,302 --> 00:24:53,262
Speaker 4: they're the ones who these policies are going to impact

527
00:24:53,302 --> 00:24:55,341
Speaker 4: the most. And I find that kind of a weak

528
00:24:55,422 --> 00:24:57,061
Speaker 4: argument because it's like, yeah, you could say that about

529
00:24:57,061 --> 00:24:59,101
Speaker 4: five year olds. I don't think five year olds should vote.

530
00:24:59,302 --> 00:25:03,941
Speaker 4: Like there is something about civic understanding and comprehension and

531
00:25:03,982 --> 00:25:07,141
Speaker 4: political knowledge and all that kind of stuff that I

532
00:25:07,182 --> 00:25:10,581
Speaker 4: think comes with voting. And they say sixteen year olds

533
00:25:10,621 --> 00:25:11,742
Speaker 4: can be taxed, right.

534
00:25:11,782 --> 00:25:13,662
Speaker 3: That seems to me to be a sensible argument. If

535
00:25:13,661 --> 00:25:15,742
Speaker 3: I have to pay tax, I should have a say yes.

536
00:25:15,782 --> 00:25:18,502
Speaker 4: But isn't it that if you earn less than about

537
00:25:18,542 --> 00:25:21,341
Speaker 4: eighteen five hundred dollars then you don't pay tax. So

538
00:25:21,422 --> 00:25:24,101
Speaker 4: most sixteen year olds aren't paying tax, they're not paying rent,

539
00:25:24,182 --> 00:25:26,621
Speaker 4: they're not like not that they're not impacted by policies,

540
00:25:26,861 --> 00:25:29,821
Speaker 4: but I think of myself at sixteen and my level

541
00:25:29,821 --> 00:25:32,661
Speaker 4: of engagement, even myself at eighteen and my level of engagement,

542
00:25:32,982 --> 00:25:35,982
Speaker 4: and I think I didn't know what I was doing. Mayo,

543
00:25:36,061 --> 00:25:37,141
Speaker 4: what do you think I'm.

544
00:25:37,061 --> 00:25:38,861
Speaker 1: Stuck on the idea of five year olds voting. I

545
00:25:39,022 --> 00:25:45,182
Speaker 1: just put up your hand. Plus, I really like wrestling

546
00:25:45,182 --> 00:25:49,581
Speaker 1: with this issue because I think the idea, if it's

547
00:25:49,742 --> 00:25:52,421
Speaker 1: not compulsory, the people who will vote will be the

548
00:25:52,422 --> 00:25:56,182
Speaker 1: ones who are really engaged. The reason I love compulsory

549
00:25:56,262 --> 00:25:57,862
Speaker 1: voting is that you know.

550
00:25:57,821 --> 00:25:58,742
Speaker 4: It's good for moderation.

551
00:25:59,061 --> 00:26:01,461
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good to sort of get a bit of

552
00:26:01,502 --> 00:26:05,622
Speaker 1: a common denominator, not necessarily the lowest, but a common denominator.

553
00:26:05,982 --> 00:26:08,341
Speaker 1: I'm also really interested in this idea of all the things.

554
00:26:08,341 --> 00:26:11,181
Speaker 1: As you say, Ohole, that you can do sixteen, but

555
00:26:11,222 --> 00:26:14,942
Speaker 1: you can't drink alcohol until you're eighteen, and I'm interested

556
00:26:14,982 --> 00:26:15,302
Speaker 1: in that.

557
00:26:15,462 --> 00:26:17,222
Speaker 4: I was really interested that you could join the army

558
00:26:17,262 --> 00:26:19,222
Speaker 4: at sixteen. I fact checked that because I wouldn't get

559
00:26:19,262 --> 00:26:20,821
Speaker 4: you and you came sixteen and six months.

560
00:26:20,861 --> 00:26:22,782
Speaker 3: And also, you know you said not that many sixteen

561
00:26:22,821 --> 00:26:25,262
Speaker 3: year olds are working, but plenty do. You can have

562
00:26:25,302 --> 00:26:27,022
Speaker 3: an apprenticeship, you can train.

563
00:26:27,262 --> 00:26:28,542
Speaker 4: That's a really good point.

564
00:26:28,782 --> 00:26:29,941
Speaker 2: Sixteen year olds are at school.

565
00:26:30,061 --> 00:26:30,901
Speaker 4: Oh, that's a good point.

566
00:26:30,942 --> 00:26:32,061
Speaker 2: I think I'm all.

567
00:26:31,942 --> 00:26:34,741
Speaker 3: For it if the policies of the country impact you

568
00:26:35,022 --> 00:26:37,581
Speaker 3: and you're of that age. What's interesting to me about

569
00:26:37,581 --> 00:26:39,942
Speaker 3: it is that in so many other areas of our

570
00:26:40,022 --> 00:26:45,581
Speaker 3: culture now we're extending childhood. We're very much about infantilizing

571
00:26:45,621 --> 00:26:48,182
Speaker 3: people until they're about twenty five. These days, it seems

572
00:26:48,502 --> 00:26:51,182
Speaker 3: so this sort of almost seems countercultural to say, yeah,

573
00:26:51,222 --> 00:26:53,622
Speaker 3: but sixteen year olds are savvy enough to be able

574
00:26:53,621 --> 00:26:54,941
Speaker 3: to vote, But personally I think they are.

575
00:26:55,022 --> 00:26:56,821
Speaker 2: I know that when I was young, I felt.

576
00:26:56,661 --> 00:26:58,782
Speaker 3: Very passionately that I should be able to vote before

577
00:26:58,782 --> 00:27:01,181
Speaker 3: I was eighteen, and I think I probably knew what

578
00:27:01,182 --> 00:27:01,941
Speaker 3: I was talking about.

579
00:27:02,061 --> 00:27:05,621
Speaker 4: Austria, Germany, Brazil, they've all changed their voting age sixteen.

580
00:27:05,661 --> 00:27:07,061
Speaker 4: It does look like we're going that way.

581
00:27:07,462 --> 00:27:09,701
Speaker 3: And in Britain and also in terms of numbers, and

582
00:27:09,742 --> 00:27:11,581
Speaker 3: they think this is going to add another one and

583
00:27:11,581 --> 00:27:14,302
Speaker 3: a half million people to the electoral role. But it's

584
00:27:14,302 --> 00:27:16,941
Speaker 3: not compulsory there here, it wouldn't be anything like that

585
00:27:17,022 --> 00:27:18,782
Speaker 3: number because our population is a lot smaller, so it

586
00:27:18,782 --> 00:27:22,742
Speaker 3: probably wouldn't be the decider, but it would definitely make

587
00:27:22,782 --> 00:27:24,022
Speaker 3: campaigns more interesting.

588
00:27:24,942 --> 00:27:28,981
Speaker 1: Main character syndrome is ruining public spaces. That's the title

589
00:27:28,982 --> 00:27:30,621
Speaker 1: of a piece I read this week by the writer

590
00:27:30,901 --> 00:27:34,262
Speaker 1: Molly Bath on Substack, and before we unpack it, I

591
00:27:34,302 --> 00:27:36,941
Speaker 1: want to do a quick glossary of what main character

592
00:27:36,982 --> 00:27:40,821
Speaker 1: syndrome actually is. It's the delusion that you are the

593
00:27:40,861 --> 00:27:43,022
Speaker 1: center of the universe like a toddler.

594
00:27:43,141 --> 00:27:43,942
Speaker 4: Is it a delusion?

595
00:27:44,462 --> 00:27:47,501
Speaker 1: Well, you're right, actually, because we all are literally all

596
00:27:47,621 --> 00:27:48,422
Speaker 1: the center of.

597
00:27:48,381 --> 00:27:49,181
Speaker 2: Our own universe.

598
00:27:49,341 --> 00:27:51,821
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's one thing to feel it or know

599
00:27:51,901 --> 00:27:55,582
Speaker 1: it and another to pay yeah, act as if everybody

600
00:27:55,621 --> 00:27:58,701
Speaker 1: else in the world is a NPC non playing character

601
00:27:58,861 --> 00:28:02,101
Speaker 1: in the story of your life. You can kind of

602
00:28:02,182 --> 00:28:04,741
Speaker 1: trace it back to the introduction of the front facing

603
00:28:04,782 --> 00:28:08,302
Speaker 1: camera on the iPhone four back in twenty ten. That

604
00:28:08,462 --> 00:28:11,141
Speaker 1: was kind of ground zero, the cultural tipping point, because

605
00:28:11,182 --> 00:28:13,661
Speaker 1: that's when the world stopped being something that you looked

606
00:28:13,742 --> 00:28:17,861
Speaker 1: at and started being something that looked back at you

607
00:28:18,262 --> 00:28:20,302
Speaker 1: as the main character, with you in the middle of it.

608
00:28:20,742 --> 00:28:23,262
Speaker 1: And in this piece, Molly Bath says that it's kind

609
00:28:23,302 --> 00:28:26,262
Speaker 1: of made us all seemingly oblivious to just how annoying

610
00:28:26,302 --> 00:28:30,381
Speaker 1: we are in public. So she starts from a good place.

611
00:28:30,462 --> 00:28:32,941
Speaker 1: You know, this idea of main character syndrome. It's a

612
00:28:33,022 --> 00:28:35,421
Speaker 1: sort of self empowerment. It's like, here are my boundaries,

613
00:28:35,462 --> 00:28:37,461
Speaker 1: and I'm going to put myself first. I'm not going

614
00:28:37,502 --> 00:28:40,742
Speaker 1: to be a martyr. But it can really mutate quite

615
00:28:40,822 --> 00:28:43,902
Speaker 1: quickly into a type of oblivious narcissism. And she gives

616
00:28:43,902 --> 00:28:47,262
Speaker 1: some examples of things like, you know, talking loudly on

617
00:28:47,302 --> 00:28:49,542
Speaker 1: the phone in public at the movies or on public

618
00:28:49,582 --> 00:28:51,222
Speaker 1: transporter and cafes.

619
00:28:50,862 --> 00:28:52,782
Speaker 4: Or playing your YouTube video on a train.

620
00:28:52,782 --> 00:28:55,741
Speaker 1: Yes, or someone's phone pinging in a yoga class. This

621
00:28:55,862 --> 00:28:58,382
Speaker 1: also fairly extreme example. It's been a while since I've

622
00:28:58,422 --> 00:29:01,702
Speaker 1: been to a public pool, but in the UK and

623
00:29:01,782 --> 00:29:03,942
Speaker 1: in parts of the US, they've been reports that they've

624
00:29:03,982 --> 00:29:07,102
Speaker 1: had to empty and close public pools because people have

625
00:29:07,142 --> 00:29:09,862
Speaker 1: been pooing in them. Not children, adults who justdn't be

626
00:29:09,862 --> 00:29:12,461
Speaker 1: bothered to get out and go to the bathroom.

627
00:29:12,902 --> 00:29:16,062
Speaker 4: Do we know couldn't be bothered? I immediately, and maybe

628
00:29:16,062 --> 00:29:17,542
Speaker 4: this is my own context, but I look at that,

629
00:29:17,661 --> 00:29:21,102
Speaker 4: and I think of whether it's people with disabilities, people

630
00:29:21,102 --> 00:29:24,582
Speaker 4: who are older, like, are there instances where adults? I

631
00:29:24,582 --> 00:29:25,742
Speaker 4: would want more details on that.

632
00:29:26,142 --> 00:29:28,102
Speaker 1: It seems to be something that's rising.

633
00:29:28,502 --> 00:29:31,221
Speaker 4: What is rising is things like public urination. Like public

634
00:29:31,342 --> 00:29:33,382
Speaker 4: urination to me is the idea that you're in their

635
00:29:33,422 --> 00:29:35,902
Speaker 4: home and you're winging on the streets as a terroist.

636
00:29:36,142 --> 00:29:36,862
Speaker 2: Yeah, not cool.

637
00:29:37,102 --> 00:29:39,422
Speaker 1: Don't pop a squat, yeah in the middle of Rome

638
00:29:39,822 --> 00:29:42,982
Speaker 1: like Holly did. Yes, she didn't really. But it also

639
00:29:43,062 --> 00:29:45,582
Speaker 1: has had an impact on tourism. And I want to

640
00:29:45,622 --> 00:29:47,542
Speaker 1: just link to a story that I've been reading about

641
00:29:47,582 --> 00:29:50,062
Speaker 1: and haven't really understood until now. There's been a lot

642
00:29:50,062 --> 00:29:52,542
Speaker 1: of protests in some of the big European cities over

643
00:29:52,582 --> 00:29:55,221
Speaker 1: summer about over tourism. You know, we saw some in

644
00:29:55,302 --> 00:29:58,222
Speaker 1: Venice being some in Rome the Louver closed for a

645
00:29:58,302 --> 00:30:00,582
Speaker 1: day because the staff just said, it's just too many people,

646
00:30:00,582 --> 00:30:04,181
Speaker 1: we can't take it whole. You have returned from the

647
00:30:04,182 --> 00:30:07,702
Speaker 1: frontline of main characters Syndrome, which is Europe in summer, right,

648
00:30:08,661 --> 00:30:09,662
Speaker 1: what did you see?

649
00:30:09,782 --> 00:30:11,782
Speaker 4: Were you an MPC and other people's holiday.

650
00:30:11,782 --> 00:30:15,182
Speaker 3: It's so funny because I've just come back from holiday

651
00:30:15,182 --> 00:30:18,582
Speaker 3: where I went to all those tourist hotspots with my family,

652
00:30:18,702 --> 00:30:20,862
Speaker 3: and that is not something that we do every year,

653
00:30:20,942 --> 00:30:24,461
Speaker 3: certainly not. But we went to London, Paris, Rome, and

654
00:30:24,462 --> 00:30:26,062
Speaker 3: then we spent a week in Italy with my family

655
00:30:26,062 --> 00:30:28,701
Speaker 3: and Manchester. But funnily enough that I don't have to

656
00:30:28,702 --> 00:30:30,862
Speaker 3: fight off that many influences in Manchester. I don't know

657
00:30:30,862 --> 00:30:33,542
Speaker 3: where they were, no viral restaurants. I haven't been to

658
00:30:33,582 --> 00:30:36,702
Speaker 3: Paris since I was twenty one, right, So like this

659
00:30:36,782 --> 00:30:40,102
Speaker 3: is a long time. Things have changed, friends, things have

660
00:30:40,302 --> 00:30:43,382
Speaker 3: changed a great deal. So here's one of the things.

661
00:30:43,542 --> 00:30:45,782
Speaker 3: My daughter's fifteen, and I don't want to embarrass it,

662
00:30:45,822 --> 00:30:48,062
Speaker 3: but I'm going to you ever so slightly. She knew

663
00:30:48,142 --> 00:30:51,062
Speaker 3: she was going to these cities, and she had a

664
00:30:51,102 --> 00:30:54,582
Speaker 3: shot list prepared for pictures that she wanted. And I

665
00:30:54,862 --> 00:30:57,062
Speaker 3: in my head, I thought, isn't that cute that my

666
00:30:57,742 --> 00:31:00,062
Speaker 3: daughter has done a bit of research and she's excited

667
00:31:00,342 --> 00:31:02,302
Speaker 3: that when we go to London, she knows that there's

668
00:31:02,302 --> 00:31:03,982
Speaker 3: this thing called Big Ben, she knows she wants a

669
00:31:03,982 --> 00:31:05,582
Speaker 3: picture with it. When we go to Paris, she knows

670
00:31:05,622 --> 00:31:06,742
Speaker 3: there's this thing called the Affatage.

671
00:31:06,782 --> 00:31:08,622
Speaker 2: She knows pa with it. That's real cute.

672
00:31:08,622 --> 00:31:09,142
Speaker 1: Which change.

673
00:31:10,182 --> 00:31:11,902
Speaker 4: When I went overseas for the first time, I was

674
00:31:11,942 --> 00:31:13,942
Speaker 4: doing the same thing, like I went, I don't wait

675
00:31:13,982 --> 00:31:15,222
Speaker 4: to get a photo with the Eiffel Tower.

676
00:31:16,262 --> 00:31:20,421
Speaker 3: But no, she has saved to Pinterest, and as I

677
00:31:20,542 --> 00:31:23,622
Speaker 3: found out, she is not alone this particular shot that

678
00:31:23,661 --> 00:31:25,302
Speaker 3: you've got to get when you go to London and

679
00:31:25,302 --> 00:31:27,102
Speaker 3: you go to Big Ben and there's a phone box

680
00:31:27,102 --> 00:31:29,181
Speaker 3: in a certain place and whatever. And I'm obviously an

681
00:31:29,222 --> 00:31:32,142
Speaker 3: indulgent mum who's excited that my daughter's excited. So I'm like,

682
00:31:32,222 --> 00:31:34,102
Speaker 3: let's go there, Let's go and get you this picture.

683
00:31:34,222 --> 00:31:35,462
Speaker 1: What's so special about it?

684
00:31:35,542 --> 00:31:36,822
Speaker 2: Like, it's just a really good view.

685
00:31:36,902 --> 00:31:38,902
Speaker 3: So you get a London phone box and Big Ben

686
00:31:38,942 --> 00:31:40,502
Speaker 3: in the background and probably a London bus.

687
00:31:40,542 --> 00:31:41,862
Speaker 2: It's like iconic composition.

688
00:31:42,622 --> 00:31:45,542
Speaker 3: So you turn up to this phone box and there

689
00:31:45,622 --> 00:31:47,941
Speaker 3: is a que Like I'm not joking, this is not

690
00:31:48,102 --> 00:31:52,982
Speaker 3: a official sight seeing anything. There is a Q twenty

691
00:31:53,022 --> 00:31:57,342
Speaker 3: minutes long of other people, mostly young people, mostly female

692
00:31:57,422 --> 00:32:00,542
Speaker 3: older than fifteen, but like, who are all also taking

693
00:32:00,622 --> 00:32:03,302
Speaker 3: this particular picture in this particular place. You go to

694
00:32:03,742 --> 00:32:07,222
Speaker 3: Paris and the amount of time you have to wait

695
00:32:07,422 --> 00:32:10,302
Speaker 3: for again mostly young women, to get the shot that

696
00:32:10,342 --> 00:32:12,822
Speaker 3: they want in front of the tower at this particular time,

697
00:32:12,822 --> 00:32:15,542
Speaker 3: in this particular place, looking this particular way, head down,

698
00:32:15,582 --> 00:32:18,182
Speaker 3: maybe looking away, maybe looking off to the side. Then

699
00:32:18,661 --> 00:32:22,062
Speaker 3: the queue and the one in London, the poor Internet boyfriends,

700
00:32:22,102 --> 00:32:25,102
Speaker 3: and is going to generalize, but it's true of like

701
00:32:25,182 --> 00:32:27,862
Speaker 3: the girls posing for the picture and then taking the

702
00:32:27,862 --> 00:32:28,862
Speaker 3: phone back going through them.

703
00:32:28,902 --> 00:32:29,741
Speaker 2: No no, no, not that one.

704
00:32:29,822 --> 00:32:34,102
Speaker 3: Let's do it again, like reshooting everybody doing these content

705
00:32:34,182 --> 00:32:38,782
Speaker 3: creator shots. It is very different. That is new, new energy.

706
00:32:38,822 --> 00:32:41,022
Speaker 3: Everywhere we went. We went to when we were in Rome,

707
00:32:41,262 --> 00:32:43,542
Speaker 3: we went to the Trevy Fountain very very early. I'm

708
00:32:43,582 --> 00:32:46,221
Speaker 3: not that bothered about the Trevy Fountain. Obviously, all of

709
00:32:46,222 --> 00:32:49,342
Speaker 3: that stuff's gorgeous. There were women at six am who

710
00:32:49,422 --> 00:32:53,222
Speaker 3: looked like they had been in full glam for an hour,

711
00:32:53,302 --> 00:32:57,221
Speaker 3: and they were there in evening dresses with heels and

712
00:32:57,382 --> 00:32:58,862
Speaker 3: head to get this iconic to.

713
00:32:58,862 --> 00:32:59,702
Speaker 2: Get these shots.

714
00:32:59,742 --> 00:33:02,862
Speaker 3: And it made me really not I mean, I wasn't.

715
00:33:02,942 --> 00:33:04,582
Speaker 3: I know, I sound like I'm being a grumpy old

716
00:33:04,582 --> 00:33:05,181
Speaker 3: woman about it.

717
00:33:05,222 --> 00:33:06,342
Speaker 1: I just found it so.

718
00:33:06,661 --> 00:33:09,742
Speaker 3: Interesting because it is so different. It's true that we've

719
00:33:09,782 --> 00:33:13,502
Speaker 3: always taken pictures of things, and we've always taken pictures

720
00:33:13,982 --> 00:33:17,062
Speaker 3: of ourselves in places that we've always wanted to go,

721
00:33:17,222 --> 00:33:20,382
Speaker 3: and it's like a prove I was there, look back

722
00:33:20,422 --> 00:33:22,622
Speaker 3: at it and remember that I was really there because

723
00:33:22,622 --> 00:33:25,182
Speaker 3: the fleeting nature of travelers. You know, then you're back

724
00:33:25,182 --> 00:33:26,742
Speaker 3: home and you're in your office job and you're like,

725
00:33:26,862 --> 00:33:28,662
Speaker 3: was I ever even at the Eiffel Tower?

726
00:33:28,661 --> 00:33:29,701
Speaker 2: And you can look at these pictures.

727
00:33:29,702 --> 00:33:33,062
Speaker 3: But it's a very specific I'm going to use the

728
00:33:33,062 --> 00:33:37,062
Speaker 3: word I would say wrong esthetic. It's a very specific

729
00:33:37,182 --> 00:33:39,782
Speaker 3: type of person and there are so many of them,

730
00:33:39,822 --> 00:33:42,262
Speaker 3: and it's really something new, and I could only think

731
00:33:42,262 --> 00:33:43,422
Speaker 3: of it as main character.

732
00:33:43,782 --> 00:33:45,902
Speaker 4: I think there are a few different things that are

733
00:33:45,942 --> 00:33:48,741
Speaker 4: like coalescing at the same time. The first is that

734
00:33:49,262 --> 00:33:51,182
Speaker 4: when my mum went to Europe for the first time,

735
00:33:51,222 --> 00:33:52,982
Speaker 4: when you took a photo and you got it developed,

736
00:33:53,582 --> 00:33:56,022
Speaker 4: you could only really have one. There wasn't unlimited right,

737
00:33:56,062 --> 00:33:58,461
Speaker 4: and now you've got unlimited data. It's not even like

738
00:33:58,462 --> 00:34:00,542
Speaker 4: a memory stick. It's like you can take three hundred

739
00:34:00,582 --> 00:34:02,382
Speaker 4: photos if you want to get the right one. The

740
00:34:02,382 --> 00:34:05,862
Speaker 4: second is video is that often from what as a

741
00:34:05,902 --> 00:34:08,622
Speaker 4: consumer who is seeing a lot of people in Europe,

742
00:34:08,622 --> 00:34:13,342
Speaker 4: I'm seeing people in all gowns doing almost runway walks.

743
00:34:13,022 --> 00:34:15,142
Speaker 2: In front of the trap fashion show. Right, it's like

744
00:34:15,182 --> 00:34:17,181
Speaker 2: a fashion show, a fashion shoot, and I.

745
00:34:17,142 --> 00:34:19,741
Speaker 4: Always think, imagine how that felt a film. I'd be

746
00:34:19,822 --> 00:34:22,221
Speaker 4: so because everyone would be would be watching you.

747
00:34:22,382 --> 00:34:25,102
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you do in your You're holding everybody in.

748
00:34:25,862 --> 00:34:28,702
Speaker 3: Yeah, no offense to them, but they are holding everybody

749
00:34:28,781 --> 00:34:31,542
Speaker 3: up because they're hogging that spot and that view while

750
00:34:31,582 --> 00:34:34,502
Speaker 3: they do their fourteen takes so back to the idea

751
00:34:34,502 --> 00:34:37,102
Speaker 3: of everybody's main character and whether it's irritating that the

752
00:34:37,142 --> 00:34:40,142
Speaker 3: phone's pinging in the yoga studio or the whatever is

753
00:34:40,181 --> 00:34:44,661
Speaker 3: that your bespoke photo shoot at one of whatever place

754
00:34:44,741 --> 00:34:48,701
Speaker 3: you're at, everybody else is waiting. And it's changing cities

755
00:34:48,741 --> 00:34:50,741
Speaker 3: in a way that I can understand is you go

756
00:34:50,781 --> 00:34:53,302
Speaker 3: to places that are very Instagram famous. There's a particular

757
00:34:53,342 --> 00:34:56,741
Speaker 3: market in London that has this strawberry stand. It's just

758
00:34:56,822 --> 00:35:00,142
Speaker 3: chocolate covered strawberries, right, but it is so viral that

759
00:35:00,181 --> 00:35:03,342
Speaker 3: place that it has changed the entire nature of this market.

760
00:35:03,661 --> 00:35:06,902
Speaker 3: On a Tuesday lunchtime wasn't even school holidays. It is

761
00:35:06,982 --> 00:35:09,142
Speaker 3: so mobbed you can't get near it. All the stalls

762
00:35:09,142 --> 00:35:13,301
Speaker 3: around are getting no custom. The conques are like zig

763
00:35:13,382 --> 00:35:15,462
Speaker 3: zag backwards on each other. And they've got a system

764
00:35:15,462 --> 00:35:17,622
Speaker 3: in place, and it's all for the gram.

765
00:35:17,741 --> 00:35:19,821
Speaker 4: There used to be a lonely planet or whatever, and

766
00:35:19,822 --> 00:35:22,062
Speaker 4: it's saying, oh, this cafe is good or whatever. But

767
00:35:22,102 --> 00:35:24,542
Speaker 4: the idea that, as we were saying before, overnight, you

768
00:35:24,542 --> 00:35:27,542
Speaker 4: can go from being a little known cafe to being

769
00:35:27,781 --> 00:35:31,142
Speaker 4: entirely viral. And that's not just happening to the little bakery.

770
00:35:31,181 --> 00:35:33,901
Speaker 4: It can happen to certain spots. There's always a new

771
00:35:33,942 --> 00:35:38,142
Speaker 4: spot that's blowing up in terms of interest. And the

772
00:35:38,221 --> 00:35:40,102
Speaker 4: other thing that they talk about with over tourism, because

773
00:35:40,102 --> 00:35:42,542
Speaker 4: this was a discussion before COVID. The Internet's made it

774
00:35:42,542 --> 00:35:45,181
Speaker 4: really easy to book things, and the cost of air

775
00:35:45,221 --> 00:35:48,341
Speaker 4: travel being lower than it was a few generations ago,

776
00:35:48,542 --> 00:35:50,701
Speaker 4: means it's more accessible and you've got more and more

777
00:35:50,741 --> 00:35:55,501
Speaker 4: people going and then having this sense of entitlement which

778
00:35:55,622 --> 00:35:59,582
Speaker 4: begins on the plane. It's like I get on the plane,

779
00:35:59,622 --> 00:36:02,662
Speaker 4: I go, this is my holiday, and this country exists

780
00:36:02,701 --> 00:36:05,661
Speaker 4: for me, and this air hostess exists for me, and

781
00:36:06,221 --> 00:36:09,542
Speaker 4: nothing will ruin my holiday. And so even the behavior,

782
00:36:10,102 --> 00:36:10,622
Speaker 4: we're all.

783
00:36:10,462 --> 00:36:12,462
Speaker 1: The main character of our own holidays.

784
00:36:12,542 --> 00:36:14,661
Speaker 4: Yes, but it's almost.

785
00:36:14,382 --> 00:36:17,902
Speaker 1: Like locations have become famous. I mean, I know that

786
00:36:17,942 --> 00:36:19,982
Speaker 1: sounds funny because we've always had famous places like the

787
00:36:20,022 --> 00:36:24,142
Speaker 1: Harmbridge or Big Bear or the Empire State Building. But

788
00:36:24,181 --> 00:36:27,542
Speaker 1: it's more than that now because like the strawberry stand,

789
00:36:28,701 --> 00:36:31,221
Speaker 1: like it's no longer enough to go and take a

790
00:36:31,221 --> 00:36:33,821
Speaker 1: picture of that. It's so funny the different generations and

791
00:36:33,862 --> 00:36:37,342
Speaker 1: what they film, because I've got a number of friends

792
00:36:37,701 --> 00:36:40,421
Speaker 1: gen X's who are in Europe at the moment, and

793
00:36:40,822 --> 00:36:44,502
Speaker 1: the photos they take are still old school. Here's some strawberries,

794
00:36:44,582 --> 00:36:46,781
Speaker 1: or here's my dinner, or here's a view, or here's

795
00:36:46,822 --> 00:36:49,421
Speaker 1: a sunset or here's an interesting thing I can see.

796
00:36:49,422 --> 00:36:52,181
Speaker 1: So they're still looking out at the world. And I

797
00:36:52,181 --> 00:36:53,781
Speaker 1: don't mean to say that we're better than the people

798
00:36:53,781 --> 00:36:56,421
Speaker 1: who are looking back at themselves, but the people looking

799
00:36:56,462 --> 00:37:00,502
Speaker 1: back at themselves the currencies that they were there needing

800
00:37:00,582 --> 00:37:03,942
Speaker 1: to insert themselves in there, because what you say about

801
00:37:04,022 --> 00:37:09,902
Speaker 1: your daughter, hole, she's not an influencer, she's just a me.

802
00:37:10,542 --> 00:37:13,661
Speaker 1: So it's not just the people who were monetizing this content.

803
00:37:14,062 --> 00:37:16,542
Speaker 1: It's the idea that almost like when you go to Disneyland,

804
00:37:16,582 --> 00:37:18,782
Speaker 1: you want the photo in front of the Disney Castle

805
00:37:18,822 --> 00:37:21,421
Speaker 1: because you've seen that and it's iconic and it's like, look,

806
00:37:21,462 --> 00:37:23,741
Speaker 1: I'm inside this iconic theme.

807
00:37:23,781 --> 00:37:26,301
Speaker 3: It's also that you know, our social media platforms have

808
00:37:26,342 --> 00:37:28,582
Speaker 3: done the art direction for us, right, so they're like,

809
00:37:28,622 --> 00:37:30,462
Speaker 3: if you stand in this place and you look a

810
00:37:30,462 --> 00:37:33,221
Speaker 3: certain way at this certain time, you'll get this amazing

811
00:37:33,302 --> 00:37:36,382
Speaker 3: shot that used to be just the sort of privilege

812
00:37:36,422 --> 00:37:38,421
Speaker 3: of a certain kind of person who had an eye

813
00:37:38,462 --> 00:37:40,982
Speaker 3: for that. So in some ways it's democratizing. But the

814
00:37:41,062 --> 00:37:43,982
Speaker 3: other thing is that our fomo, I think, has just

815
00:37:44,062 --> 00:37:46,181
Speaker 3: reached new levels with it. When you walk around a

816
00:37:46,221 --> 00:37:48,462
Speaker 3: city like London or or Paris, and this did actually

817
00:37:48,462 --> 00:37:50,861
Speaker 3: happen in Manchester too, you'll suddenly see a big queue

818
00:37:50,942 --> 00:37:54,142
Speaker 3: for something and immediately human nature, what are they quing for?

819
00:37:54,502 --> 00:37:56,542
Speaker 3: What do they know that I don't know that I

820
00:37:56,542 --> 00:37:59,221
Speaker 3: should join that queue? And in Paris you'd walk past

821
00:37:59,302 --> 00:38:01,622
Speaker 3: and it would be a particular petiserie. There'd be four

822
00:38:01,701 --> 00:38:03,982
Speaker 3: other bakeries on the street, but this particular one has

823
00:38:04,022 --> 00:38:07,221
Speaker 3: this cake that is particularly instagrammable. So the queue is

824
00:38:07,261 --> 00:38:09,821
Speaker 3: out the door, you can join a virtual way list

825
00:38:09,862 --> 00:38:11,341
Speaker 3: for it. You could do all these things, and so

826
00:38:11,422 --> 00:38:13,622
Speaker 3: everywhere we'd go there'd be a queue and we'd all

827
00:38:13,661 --> 00:38:15,221
Speaker 3: be like, what are they queuing for? What are they

828
00:38:15,302 --> 00:38:19,261
Speaker 3: cuing for? And then, horrifyingly, on the last day we

829
00:38:19,261 --> 00:38:21,422
Speaker 3: were there, we were walking around in the evening and

830
00:38:21,462 --> 00:38:23,622
Speaker 3: we'd been, as I say, seeing these cues for days

831
00:38:23,622 --> 00:38:24,181
Speaker 3: and kind of.

832
00:38:24,542 --> 00:38:25,142
Speaker 2: What's that about?

833
00:38:25,142 --> 00:38:27,262
Speaker 3: That must be something viral, that must be something exciting,

834
00:38:27,542 --> 00:38:29,942
Speaker 3: And then we saw this queue outside this place on

835
00:38:29,982 --> 00:38:32,821
Speaker 3: a side street in Paris, and we were like, what's that?

836
00:38:32,822 --> 00:38:33,102
Speaker 2: What's that?

837
00:38:33,181 --> 00:38:35,142
Speaker 3: And we realized this was a literal queue for a

838
00:38:35,181 --> 00:38:38,342
Speaker 3: souper kitchen, like a queue for people who are hungry

839
00:38:38,542 --> 00:38:42,102
Speaker 3: trying to get themselves fed, next to the tourists in

840
00:38:42,142 --> 00:38:44,301
Speaker 3: their long line trying to get a picture of their cake.

841
00:38:44,342 --> 00:38:47,542
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that with any moral judgment. They're like, oh,

842
00:38:47,022 --> 00:38:50,662
Speaker 3: I would never like, you know, I totally was buying

843
00:38:50,701 --> 00:38:53,781
Speaker 3: the macarons that looked really pretty. But it's kind of

844
00:38:54,142 --> 00:38:56,982
Speaker 3: really interesting how it's messed with our heads.

845
00:38:57,022 --> 00:39:00,342
Speaker 4: I think the irony is that the beauty of travel

846
00:39:01,022 --> 00:39:03,301
Speaker 4: is the opposite of the main character syndrome is it

847
00:39:03,342 --> 00:39:06,542
Speaker 4: you often feel anonymous, You feel like no one knows you.

848
00:39:06,542 --> 00:39:09,502
Speaker 4: You feel like on the main stage is the culture

849
00:39:09,622 --> 00:39:12,701
Speaker 4: and the people, and you're like this viewer rather than

850
00:39:12,741 --> 00:39:16,142
Speaker 4: this person who the world it makes you feel small.

851
00:39:16,302 --> 00:39:19,022
Speaker 4: That's the beauty of it. We're not just saying this.

852
00:39:19,022 --> 00:39:21,582
Speaker 4: There's all this research and all of these countries that

853
00:39:21,622 --> 00:39:25,062
Speaker 4: have come out and said people are etching their names

854
00:39:25,062 --> 00:39:28,142
Speaker 4: on the Colosseum, like all these countries have come out

855
00:39:28,181 --> 00:39:32,382
Speaker 4: from Amsterdam to Kyoto. They literally have new codes of conduct.

856
00:39:32,781 --> 00:39:35,062
Speaker 4: Some countries are getting people to sign it when they

857
00:39:35,102 --> 00:39:37,861
Speaker 4: get there to go this is how you have to

858
00:39:37,862 --> 00:39:40,062
Speaker 4: behave in our country. Because we're having all of these

859
00:39:40,102 --> 00:39:43,782
Speaker 4: issues with tourists that there is this entitlement. I also

860
00:39:43,862 --> 00:39:46,542
Speaker 4: wonder I think it is a Western thing. I think

861
00:39:46,542 --> 00:39:50,182
Speaker 4: that it's a Western entitlement to like you just come

862
00:39:50,181 --> 00:39:52,941
Speaker 4: to this country. You see it in Bali, where it's

863
00:39:53,062 --> 00:39:58,542
Speaker 4: like this total disregard for cultural sensitivity is about things

864
00:39:58,822 --> 00:40:03,861
Speaker 4: and posing or you know, being really insensitive to cultural

865
00:40:03,942 --> 00:40:06,102
Speaker 4: or religious sites. Like that kind of stuff is all

866
00:40:06,142 --> 00:40:06,662
Speaker 4: over Europe.

867
00:40:06,701 --> 00:40:09,542
Speaker 3: It makes you realize you're We were in some beautiful

868
00:40:09,622 --> 00:40:14,062
Speaker 3: for churches in Italy and some people are literally lying

869
00:40:14,102 --> 00:40:15,821
Speaker 3: on the floor in the middle of a cathedral trying

870
00:40:15,822 --> 00:40:18,182
Speaker 3: to get a photo of the well. Their friend leans

871
00:40:18,221 --> 00:40:20,741
Speaker 3: over them to get the shot of them doing the

872
00:40:20,781 --> 00:40:23,982
Speaker 3: peace sign underneath the amazing fresco or whatever. And I'm

873
00:40:24,022 --> 00:40:29,302
Speaker 3: not a religious person, but I found that insensitive, insensitive

874
00:40:29,462 --> 00:40:32,341
Speaker 3: and a bit ick. And the problem is is you

875
00:40:32,422 --> 00:40:34,542
Speaker 3: see it though, and the other little thought in the

876
00:40:34,542 --> 00:40:37,181
Speaker 3: back of your head, And certainly if you're I mean,

877
00:40:37,261 --> 00:40:38,102
Speaker 3: I didn't, but you're like.

878
00:40:38,102 --> 00:40:39,382
Speaker 2: Oh, that would be a good shot.

879
00:40:39,781 --> 00:40:40,741
Speaker 4: Yeah.

880
00:40:41,302 --> 00:40:43,942
Speaker 3: Before you know it, you're probably joining the queue to

881
00:40:44,062 --> 00:40:47,022
Speaker 3: lie on the floor in this century's old cathedral and

882
00:40:47,181 --> 00:40:49,302
Speaker 3: do a peace sign in front of the Virgin Mary

883
00:40:50,462 --> 00:40:54,142
Speaker 3: after the break? What happens when someone writes an unauthorized

884
00:40:54,142 --> 00:40:57,261
Speaker 3: biography of you and you kind of like it? All

885
00:40:57,261 --> 00:40:59,661
Speaker 3: the signs are that maybe the new Gwyneth Paltrow book

886
00:40:59,822 --> 00:41:00,861
Speaker 3: might be an inside job.

887
00:41:01,502 --> 00:41:04,261
Speaker 1: Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We

888
00:41:04,382 --> 00:41:08,661
Speaker 1: dropped besides every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Muma MEA.

889
00:41:08,741 --> 00:41:09,381
Speaker 2: Subscribers.

890
00:41:09,701 --> 00:41:11,381
Speaker 1: Follow the link in the show notes to get us

891
00:41:11,422 --> 00:41:13,942
Speaker 1: in your ears five days a week, and a huge

892
00:41:13,982 --> 00:41:22,181
Speaker 1: thank you if you're already a subscriber. Look, I might have.

893
00:41:22,221 --> 00:41:25,542
Speaker 3: Been on holiday, but don't believe for one second that

894
00:41:25,622 --> 00:41:28,701
Speaker 3: when my imaginary friend Gwyneth Paltrow was on the gram

895
00:41:28,701 --> 00:41:32,261
Speaker 3: making paleo lobster benedict for her husband the other day.

896
00:41:32,622 --> 00:41:35,502
Speaker 2: I wasn't right there with her. What a relatable queen

897
00:41:35,822 --> 00:41:36,221
Speaker 2: she is.

898
00:41:36,382 --> 00:41:39,022
Speaker 1: I saw making a tuna salad for him. Gosh, she's been.

899
00:41:38,862 --> 00:41:44,062
Speaker 2: Cooking for tuna saldy guy is easy, look, tasty, paleo lobster.

900
00:41:44,582 --> 00:41:45,142
Speaker 2: Bless her.

901
00:41:45,781 --> 00:41:48,462
Speaker 3: Anyway, while she was doing that, I like to imagine

902
00:41:48,462 --> 00:41:50,462
Speaker 3: that her lawyers were likely on the phone to People

903
00:41:50,542 --> 00:41:54,421
Speaker 3: magazine because they were about to publish a cover proclaiming

904
00:41:54,741 --> 00:42:00,181
Speaker 3: all the juicy gossip about Gwyneth from a new unauthorized biography.

905
00:42:00,822 --> 00:42:03,342
Speaker 3: This book is written by this woman called Amy Odell,

906
00:42:03,701 --> 00:42:07,701
Speaker 3: and it's being tagged as a bombshell book, bombshell, big letters, Mia,

907
00:42:07,741 --> 00:42:09,741
Speaker 3: what's an unauthorized biography?

908
00:42:09,822 --> 00:42:12,661
Speaker 2: And is Amy O'Dell like sheer? Big name jehoe have

909
00:42:12,781 --> 00:42:13,542
Speaker 2: been worried about this?

910
00:42:13,741 --> 00:42:17,142
Speaker 1: She's people in the industry know who she is, and

911
00:42:17,181 --> 00:42:19,901
Speaker 1: by that I sort of mean media fashion, that sort

912
00:42:19,942 --> 00:42:23,661
Speaker 1: of adjacent world. She is an author and a journalist.

913
00:42:24,022 --> 00:42:28,662
Speaker 1: She wrote the very very well received and successful also

914
00:42:28,781 --> 00:42:32,062
Speaker 1: unauthorised biography of Anna Wintour in twenty twenty two.

915
00:42:32,181 --> 00:42:34,942
Speaker 4: What does unauthorized rey unauthorized means?

916
00:42:35,102 --> 00:42:37,861
Speaker 1: It's not with the overt cooperation of the subject, and

917
00:42:37,902 --> 00:42:41,181
Speaker 1: they don't have any power over what you do publish,

918
00:42:41,661 --> 00:42:45,102
Speaker 1: who you do talk to. And there are different versions

919
00:42:45,221 --> 00:42:47,781
Speaker 1: of authorized and unauthorized, right, and the opposite of that

920
00:42:47,862 --> 00:42:51,821
Speaker 1: is an autobiography, which is you have complete control because.

921
00:42:51,582 --> 00:42:52,502
Speaker 2: You're writing it all.

922
00:42:52,542 --> 00:42:57,422
Speaker 1: A ghostwriter writes it with you. People often prefer unauthorized

923
00:42:57,502 --> 00:43:00,542
Speaker 1: because it means that you get the full story. But

924
00:43:00,741 --> 00:43:03,782
Speaker 1: then there are some that are really salacious and trying

925
00:43:03,822 --> 00:43:07,142
Speaker 1: to tell a particular juicy story, and then there are

926
00:43:07,142 --> 00:43:09,461
Speaker 1: others that have the you know. For example, with the Ana

927
00:43:09,622 --> 00:43:12,542
Speaker 1: Winter book, she didn't try to shut it down. Now,

928
00:43:12,582 --> 00:43:14,781
Speaker 1: if Anna winto hadn't wanted that book to happen, she

929
00:43:14,822 --> 00:43:17,302
Speaker 1: would have told everybody, do not speak to amy Odell.

930
00:43:17,661 --> 00:43:19,781
Speaker 1: She didn't do that. Now. Gwyneth Paltry didn't do that

931
00:43:19,942 --> 00:43:20,941
Speaker 1: to Amyodell either.

932
00:43:20,942 --> 00:43:21,421
Speaker 2: With her book.

933
00:43:21,502 --> 00:43:22,742
Speaker 4: Was Anna Wintre's flattering.

934
00:43:22,942 --> 00:43:25,861
Speaker 1: I read it and it's the definitive biography of her.

935
00:43:26,062 --> 00:43:28,342
Speaker 1: And Anna probably won't ever write a book about herself,

936
00:43:28,822 --> 00:43:31,702
Speaker 1: but it was well done. She interviewed over two hundred

937
00:43:31,701 --> 00:43:33,462
Speaker 1: and twenty people for that book. I think about the

938
00:43:33,502 --> 00:43:37,102
Speaker 1: same for the Gwyneth book, and it was very comprehensive,

939
00:43:37,261 --> 00:43:39,502
Speaker 1: so it wasn't you know some unauthorised biographies or just

940
00:43:39,542 --> 00:43:42,062
Speaker 1: have an unnamed source and read like the Daily Mail.

941
00:43:42,422 --> 00:43:45,462
Speaker 1: But these books are extraordinary pieces of journalism.

942
00:43:45,781 --> 00:43:48,782
Speaker 4: Can you tell me what we know? What did the people?

943
00:43:49,181 --> 00:43:52,742
Speaker 3: So there's say what I'm interested about this is about

944
00:43:52,822 --> 00:43:54,982
Speaker 3: whether or not this book, whether or not Gwyneth is

945
00:43:55,022 --> 00:43:58,382
Speaker 3: in on it, right because it's described as a bombshell book.

946
00:43:58,502 --> 00:44:01,461
Speaker 3: It's not actually out yet and there's an NDA on it.

947
00:44:01,661 --> 00:44:05,982
Speaker 3: But People had an exclusive. Now, People magazine is still

948
00:44:06,102 --> 00:44:10,661
Speaker 3: widely regarded as the celebrity's mouthpiece if any gossip magazine,

949
00:44:10,741 --> 00:44:14,861
Speaker 3: as it were, has any credibility anymore and forever, really

950
00:44:14,902 --> 00:44:18,181
Speaker 3: it's People magazine. It's where celebrities go to confirm or

951
00:44:18,221 --> 00:44:21,142
Speaker 3: deny certain stories, to do exclusives back in the day

952
00:44:21,181 --> 00:44:23,382
Speaker 3: when that was a big thing. And so the fact

953
00:44:23,422 --> 00:44:26,422
Speaker 3: that they have the first extracts of this book is meaningful.

954
00:44:26,822 --> 00:44:29,221
Speaker 3: The other thing that might mean that gwynethsineon is, as

955
00:44:29,261 --> 00:44:32,142
Speaker 3: far as we can tell, despite it being called bombshell,

956
00:44:32,701 --> 00:44:35,381
Speaker 3: there doesn't seem to be a smoking gun here right.

957
00:44:35,661 --> 00:44:39,062
Speaker 3: Things that we know so far, she considered Brad Pitt

958
00:44:39,062 --> 00:44:40,781
Speaker 3: to be a bit of a dullard and she says

959
00:44:40,822 --> 00:44:43,622
Speaker 3: things like we came from very different backgrounds. I had

960
00:44:43,661 --> 00:44:46,622
Speaker 3: to teach him about the different types of caviat in restaurants.

961
00:44:46,701 --> 00:44:48,861
Speaker 4: And didn't she say he's dumber shit or something.

962
00:44:48,942 --> 00:44:50,741
Speaker 3: She is alleged to have told her friends that she

963
00:44:50,741 --> 00:44:53,221
Speaker 3: thought he was dumb as shit. There's a suggestion that

964
00:44:53,261 --> 00:44:56,102
Speaker 3: maybe she cheated on him, and there's a suggestion that

965
00:44:56,181 --> 00:44:59,542
Speaker 3: maybe ben Affleck cheated on her. There's some stuff in

966
00:44:59,582 --> 00:45:02,142
Speaker 3: there about why her and Madonna's friendship ended. I liked

967
00:45:02,221 --> 00:45:05,022
Speaker 3: that ye which was that Madonna and Lord es Gate

968
00:45:05,062 --> 00:45:08,941
Speaker 3: crashed a family holiday of Gwyneth and Chris Martin's back

969
00:45:08,982 --> 00:45:11,982
Speaker 3: to our friend who likes to out married cheating couples,

970
00:45:12,462 --> 00:45:14,701
Speaker 3: and that Madonna was so awful and so awful to

971
00:45:14,741 --> 00:45:16,542
Speaker 3: her daughter that Chris was like, we can't hang around

972
00:45:16,542 --> 00:45:17,302
Speaker 3: with that woman anymore.

973
00:45:17,342 --> 00:45:18,941
Speaker 2: She's awful. So there's stuff like that.

974
00:45:19,022 --> 00:45:21,142
Speaker 1: I don't think my daughter would be a very good hang.

975
00:45:21,781 --> 00:45:24,261
Speaker 2: I reckon she'd be quite a good I also read.

976
00:45:24,261 --> 00:45:28,821
Speaker 1: In that excerpt that Gwyneth said that ben Affleck is

977
00:45:28,902 --> 00:45:31,341
Speaker 1: very good at kindly. Yes, she really liked having sex

978
00:45:31,342 --> 00:45:33,142
Speaker 1: with him because he gives such good hand yeap.

979
00:45:33,462 --> 00:45:35,782
Speaker 3: So there's that kind of juice, but there doesn't seem

980
00:45:35,781 --> 00:45:38,261
Speaker 3: to be like a really really awful thing. But here's

981
00:45:38,302 --> 00:45:41,261
Speaker 3: my question is if you were turning a blind eye

982
00:45:41,342 --> 00:45:44,342
Speaker 3: to a biography about yourself, because as me as already said,

983
00:45:44,701 --> 00:45:48,142
Speaker 3: it looks like Anna Wintour. Amy Odell has said this herself.

984
00:45:48,181 --> 00:45:49,701
Speaker 3: She was working on that book for two years and

985
00:45:49,701 --> 00:45:52,222
Speaker 3: she was kind of getting nowhere. And then Anna Wintour

986
00:45:52,502 --> 00:45:55,382
Speaker 3: heard obviously that she was doing it, and agreed to

987
00:45:55,502 --> 00:45:58,221
Speaker 3: hand over a list of contacts, not to talk to her,

988
00:45:58,261 --> 00:46:00,901
Speaker 3: but to say these people will talk to you. Because say,

989
00:46:00,902 --> 00:46:03,102
Speaker 3: if someone called you, Jesse and said I'm writing a

990
00:46:03,142 --> 00:46:07,502
Speaker 3: selicious book about Holly, You'd say, I will tell you nothing,

991
00:46:07,781 --> 00:46:10,502
Speaker 3: because I am a loyal and honest friend. But if

992
00:46:10,542 --> 00:46:12,741
Speaker 3: I said to you it's all right, babe, talk to them.

993
00:46:12,862 --> 00:46:16,262
Speaker 3: It'll be okay, then you would right. More likely obviously

994
00:46:16,302 --> 00:46:19,022
Speaker 3: they'd be writing books because let's play along. So but

995
00:46:19,062 --> 00:46:20,781
Speaker 3: would I do that if I knew you were going

996
00:46:20,822 --> 00:46:22,382
Speaker 3: to make me sound like a snobby idiot?

997
00:46:22,701 --> 00:46:26,461
Speaker 4: Well, what's interesting, right is that I think the context

998
00:46:26,582 --> 00:46:31,502
Speaker 4: of this being us is libel laws. Right, So this

999
00:46:31,701 --> 00:46:35,221
Speaker 4: is going to be written regardless. There is nothing that

1000
00:46:35,382 --> 00:46:38,902
Speaker 4: is going to stop that book being published. There was

1001
00:46:38,902 --> 00:46:43,502
Speaker 4: an unauthorized biography written about Tom Cruise, and it's different

1002
00:46:43,542 --> 00:46:46,661
Speaker 4: in Australia. Even that Tom Cruise biography wasn't published here

1003
00:46:46,661 --> 00:46:48,661
Speaker 4: for a long while because of we have very very

1004
00:46:48,661 --> 00:46:52,822
Speaker 4: strict defamation laws. So for Gwyneth, it's like Amy O'Dell

1005
00:46:52,902 --> 00:46:54,861
Speaker 4: can kind of say what she wants. So you would

1006
00:46:54,902 --> 00:46:57,381
Speaker 4: want some kind of involvement.

1007
00:46:57,582 --> 00:46:59,742
Speaker 3: Mia, Do you think there's a world in which Anana

1008
00:46:59,781 --> 00:47:03,022
Speaker 3: Wintour or Gwyneth Peltrow goes, Okay, I'm going to give

1009
00:47:03,022 --> 00:47:04,701
Speaker 3: you access to some of my people. So some of

1010
00:47:04,741 --> 00:47:07,661
Speaker 3: the what the only really named source I've seen much

1011
00:47:07,661 --> 00:47:08,982
Speaker 3: in this because a lot of it's dug up from

1012
00:47:08,982 --> 00:47:13,261
Speaker 3: old interviews is Kevin o'quon, who's the famous celebrity makeupartist

1013
00:47:13,302 --> 00:47:15,422
Speaker 3: who has that mascara that everybody was Yeah.

1014
00:47:15,302 --> 00:47:15,821
Speaker 1: But he's dead.

1015
00:47:16,062 --> 00:47:16,942
Speaker 2: Oh of course he is.

1016
00:47:17,181 --> 00:47:20,301
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so that's easy he could give permission. I

1017
00:47:20,342 --> 00:47:24,661
Speaker 1: think what's interesting these books are important in the important

1018
00:47:24,701 --> 00:47:28,222
Speaker 1: cultural figures, and she is certainly from Goop to Conscious

1019
00:47:28,302 --> 00:47:32,661
Speaker 1: Uncoupling to Shakespeare in Love, she's certainly got a footprint

1020
00:47:32,822 --> 00:47:37,502
Speaker 1: on our culture. It's important, or it's a worthwhile exercise

1021
00:47:37,582 --> 00:47:41,861
Speaker 1: to have one sort of place where all of that

1022
00:47:42,062 --> 00:47:44,782
Speaker 1: is examined, the influence that person has on the culture.

1023
00:47:45,181 --> 00:47:48,221
Speaker 1: There are examples where like an unauthorised biography Andrew Morton

1024
00:47:48,261 --> 00:47:50,381
Speaker 1: and Princess Diana, right, we found out after she died

1025
00:47:50,422 --> 00:47:52,261
Speaker 1: that she actually was the source of that and she

1026
00:47:52,342 --> 00:47:56,382
Speaker 1: was literally sending him notes. And then there are others.

1027
00:47:56,741 --> 00:47:59,261
Speaker 1: It very much depends who the writer is. Kitty Kelly

1028
00:47:59,342 --> 00:48:02,822
Speaker 1: was a very famous biographer in the eighties and nineties,

1029
00:48:02,862 --> 00:48:06,582
Speaker 1: and she would write like trashy, pretty trashy, like sensationalist ones.

1030
00:48:07,142 --> 00:48:11,661
Speaker 1: I think when a respected journalist wants to write a

1031
00:48:11,942 --> 00:48:14,942
Speaker 1: biography of you, first of all, it's a way to

1032
00:48:15,022 --> 00:48:17,941
Speaker 1: slightly control it because they are a decent journalist who

1033
00:48:17,942 --> 00:48:19,821
Speaker 1: have got a lot of connections in the industry, who

1034
00:48:19,902 --> 00:48:22,542
Speaker 1: aren't going to want to make enemies of you or

1035
00:48:22,582 --> 00:48:26,102
Speaker 1: of everybody else. And so it kind of plants the

1036
00:48:26,142 --> 00:48:29,102
Speaker 1: flag in the ground and stops more salacious books from

1037
00:48:29,181 --> 00:48:32,461
Speaker 1: having any credibility. And also from everything I've read about

1038
00:48:32,502 --> 00:48:36,062
Speaker 1: Gwyneth's approach to this book is that people have talked

1039
00:48:36,382 --> 00:48:39,181
Speaker 1: about her and gossiped about her since she first came

1040
00:48:39,221 --> 00:48:41,741
Speaker 1: on the scene. There's no point in shutting it down.

1041
00:48:41,781 --> 00:48:44,741
Speaker 1: I think she's changed her view of that because back

1042
00:48:44,741 --> 00:48:47,421
Speaker 1: in the nineties, Grenon Carter was working on a cover

1043
00:48:47,502 --> 00:48:51,221
Speaker 1: story for Vanity Fair about Gwyneth Paltrow and she moved

1044
00:48:51,221 --> 00:48:52,781
Speaker 1: Heaven and Nurse to try and get that shut down,

1045
00:48:52,822 --> 00:48:55,582
Speaker 1: and she was successful for many, many years. It ended

1046
00:48:55,622 --> 00:48:58,502
Speaker 1: up coming out years later in a much watered down form.

1047
00:48:59,102 --> 00:49:02,261
Speaker 1: But it's also flattering, so not necessarily the book, but

1048
00:49:02,382 --> 00:49:03,542
Speaker 1: the idea that someone would write.

1049
00:49:03,661 --> 00:49:05,422
Speaker 3: She's doing a lot of interviews and stuff lately, so

1050
00:49:05,462 --> 00:49:07,661
Speaker 3: she's obviously prepared to be more public than she was,

1051
00:49:07,701 --> 00:49:09,381
Speaker 3: as you say. But I heard her say on one

1052
00:49:09,382 --> 00:49:11,542
Speaker 3: of the podcasts recently, when someone said, what's the worst

1053
00:49:11,542 --> 00:49:14,221
Speaker 3: misconception out there about you? She said that I'm a

1054
00:49:14,221 --> 00:49:17,542
Speaker 3: snob who's out of touch. Now, everything I've read in

1055
00:49:17,582 --> 00:49:20,941
Speaker 3: this of this book, from the caveat to the you know,

1056
00:49:21,102 --> 00:49:22,902
Speaker 3: Ben Affleck was too much of a guy's guy and

1057
00:49:22,942 --> 00:49:25,701
Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff certainly doesn't help that view

1058
00:49:25,701 --> 00:49:27,701
Speaker 3: of her. But do you think there's a world where

1059
00:49:27,701 --> 00:49:31,142
Speaker 3: you go if you don't write the worst things, I'll

1060
00:49:31,221 --> 00:49:33,022
Speaker 3: let you have access to not.

1061
00:49:33,142 --> 00:49:35,861
Speaker 2: So bad flattering And I.

1062
00:49:35,982 --> 00:49:37,942
Speaker 1: Saw that it keeps her culturally relevant.

1063
00:49:38,022 --> 00:49:41,861
Speaker 4: The headline going around which was that maybe at the

1064
00:49:41,942 --> 00:49:44,102
Speaker 4: end of school or something, she said her biggest fear

1065
00:49:44,181 --> 00:49:46,782
Speaker 4: was obesity. Like things like that can do a lot.

1066
00:49:46,661 --> 00:49:49,301
Speaker 3: Of yeah's a lot of stuff in there that makes it. Well,

1067
00:49:49,342 --> 00:49:51,502
Speaker 3: that's what was written about her in the yearbook. Yes,

1068
00:49:51,582 --> 00:49:54,142
Speaker 3: that it would be her worst nightmare. So it certainly

1069
00:49:54,181 --> 00:49:59,622
Speaker 3: reinforces everything about privileged, waspy, skinny, white lady who breezes

1070
00:49:59,661 --> 00:50:01,982
Speaker 3: through life, NEPO baby, all that stuff.

1071
00:50:01,982 --> 00:50:03,741
Speaker 2: It's all seems.

1072
00:50:03,462 --> 00:50:05,741
Speaker 3: To be in here, But there isn't anything in there

1073
00:50:06,302 --> 00:50:08,741
Speaker 3: so far that we didn't all already know.

1074
00:50:08,781 --> 00:50:10,821
Speaker 4: I couldn't. I couldn't of anything worse. I could not

1075
00:50:10,982 --> 00:50:15,901
Speaker 4: think of anything worse than having two hundred people go

1076
00:50:15,982 --> 00:50:18,981
Speaker 4: on the record to bitch about you to a strangers,

1077
00:50:19,542 --> 00:50:21,781
Speaker 4: to then be read by millions and millions of people,

1078
00:50:21,862 --> 00:50:23,342
Speaker 4: and there is not a single thing you can do

1079
00:50:23,382 --> 00:50:24,302
Speaker 4: about it like that.

1080
00:50:24,422 --> 00:50:26,181
Speaker 1: But you just said they were bitching about her. They

1081
00:50:26,181 --> 00:50:28,022
Speaker 1: won't know a bitch about her, like a lot of people

1082
00:50:28,342 --> 00:50:30,301
Speaker 1: sully things about her.

1083
00:50:30,382 --> 00:50:33,382
Speaker 4: The thing about a source, right is that like, yes, Holly,

1084
00:50:33,462 --> 00:50:36,462
Speaker 4: I'm loyal, and so I probably wouldn't say anything. A

1085
00:50:36,542 --> 00:50:40,262
Speaker 4: source often has to feel something quite strongly about the subject.

1086
00:50:40,661 --> 00:50:41,622
Speaker 2: You kissed off at work.

1087
00:50:41,701 --> 00:50:44,102
Speaker 4: Yeah, if someone asked me about someone I felt kind

1088
00:50:44,102 --> 00:50:45,661
Speaker 4: of neutral about, I'd be like, I don't really have

1089
00:50:45,701 --> 00:50:48,661
Speaker 4: anything to say. They work out and whatever, Right, But

1090
00:50:48,741 --> 00:50:52,022
Speaker 4: it's people with an axe to grind or like. And

1091
00:50:52,342 --> 00:50:55,062
Speaker 4: there is not a single person on the planet who

1092
00:50:55,062 --> 00:50:57,261
Speaker 4: wouldn't have someone they've come across who doesn't have a

1093
00:50:57,342 --> 00:50:58,542
Speaker 4: terrible story to tell about you.

1094
00:50:58,822 --> 00:51:01,381
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the choice of journalists or that knowing who

1095
00:51:01,422 --> 00:51:04,821
Speaker 1: the journalist is. Amy Odell's not interested in writing either

1096
00:51:04,822 --> 00:51:08,582
Speaker 1: a hagiography which is just a puff piece, or a

1097
00:51:08,622 --> 00:51:11,261
Speaker 1: trash book. She's not. And I think I've been asked

1098
00:51:11,302 --> 00:51:15,782
Speaker 1: to contribute to profiles about particular high profile people before,

1099
00:51:16,502 --> 00:51:18,741
Speaker 1: and it's actually after you check with them that they

1100
00:51:18,862 --> 00:51:21,421
Speaker 1: are okay with you talking to the journalist. And often

1101
00:51:21,462 --> 00:51:24,022
Speaker 1: I've had them done of me before and they say, oh,

1102
00:51:24,062 --> 00:51:26,181
Speaker 1: who could we talk to? And you give them a

1103
00:51:26,181 --> 00:51:28,181
Speaker 1: few people who you know will say something really nice

1104
00:51:28,181 --> 00:51:29,661
Speaker 1: about you, and then they go and find people who

1105
00:51:29,701 --> 00:51:31,942
Speaker 1: will say full things about you. I had to do

1106
00:51:31,982 --> 00:51:34,462
Speaker 1: one of Zoe Foster Blake for a profile that the

1107
00:51:34,661 --> 00:51:37,781
Speaker 1: Stradling Financial Review we're doing, and I really enjoyed the

1108
00:51:37,781 --> 00:51:41,022
Speaker 1: process of thinking what I wanted to say about her,

1109
00:51:41,221 --> 00:51:44,501
Speaker 1: like what I could offer to a profile that would

1110
00:51:44,582 --> 00:51:48,662
Speaker 1: give the reader some insight into her. Obviously, you don't

1111
00:51:48,701 --> 00:51:51,301
Speaker 1: just say, oh, she's really great and she's cool, like

1112
00:51:51,382 --> 00:51:54,261
Speaker 1: I had to actually and be spa yeah. And for her,

1113
00:51:54,382 --> 00:51:58,462
Speaker 1: I was like, Zoe really knows what she wants to

1114
00:51:58,542 --> 00:52:00,461
Speaker 1: do and what she doesn't want to do. And even

1115
00:52:00,462 --> 00:52:03,542
Speaker 1: though there's a lot of pressure to be an influencer

1116
00:52:03,582 --> 00:52:06,142
Speaker 1: and be this, and she pioneered a voice that a

1117
00:52:06,221 --> 00:52:10,022
Speaker 1: generation of young writers in Australia have tried to copy.

1118
00:52:10,622 --> 00:52:12,542
Speaker 1: And she was also the first one in Australia that

1119
00:52:12,661 --> 00:52:14,982
Speaker 1: gave a brand of voice. And all of these things

1120
00:52:14,982 --> 00:52:18,661
Speaker 1: are very specific things. But that profile was not just

1121
00:52:18,781 --> 00:52:21,861
Speaker 1: a suck up puff piece. But it was interesting to

1122
00:52:21,942 --> 00:52:25,142
Speaker 1: read and it was interesting to contribute to. So I've

1123
00:52:25,221 --> 00:52:26,142
Speaker 1: ordered the book of your pre.

1124
00:52:26,102 --> 00:52:28,542
Speaker 2: Ordered of course, I have you heard it here first.

1125
00:52:28,622 --> 00:52:31,181
Speaker 3: Ben Affleck gives good head and everything in this book

1126
00:52:31,261 --> 00:52:32,422
Speaker 3: is true.

1127
00:52:33,422 --> 00:52:35,741
Speaker 2: That is all we have time for out louders. It's

1128
00:52:35,982 --> 00:52:37,422
Speaker 2: very good to be back with you.

1129
00:52:37,862 --> 00:52:41,542
Speaker 3: Thank you to wonderful em and Amelia for filling my

1130
00:52:41,622 --> 00:52:44,142
Speaker 3: seat while I was gone, and thank you to our

1131
00:52:44,181 --> 00:52:46,622
Speaker 3: wonderful team for putting this show together as they always do.

1132
00:52:46,741 --> 00:52:48,582
Speaker 3: We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.

1133
00:52:48,701 --> 00:52:49,942
Speaker 1: Bye bye bye.

1134
00:52:50,862 --> 00:52:53,781
Speaker 4: Shout out to any Mum and MEA subscribers listening. If

1135
00:52:53,822 --> 00:52:55,781
Speaker 4: you love the show and you want to support us,

1136
00:52:56,022 --> 00:52:58,822
Speaker 4: subscribing to Mom and Mia is the very best way

1137
00:52:58,862 --> 00:53:01,422
Speaker 4: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.