WEBVTT - Lisa Wilkinson’s Life Wasn’t Meant To Be Like This: Part Two 0:00:15.196 --> 0:00:17.475 From Mamma Mia, I'm Mia Friedman, and you're listening to 0:00:17.475 --> 0:00:20.076 No Filter, a podcast where people from all walks of 0:00:20.076 --> 0:00:23.996 life tell their stories very candidly and aren't afraid to 0:00:23.996 --> 0:00:28.395 be vulnerable. And on the subject of candid and vulnerable, 0:00:28.715 --> 0:00:31.736 this is part two of my interview with the iconic, 0:00:31.996 --> 0:00:35.035 Lisa Wilkinson. And if you haven't listened to part one, 0:00:35.275 --> 0:00:38.775 I'd suggest scrolling back through your feed and doing that now. 0:00:39.076 --> 0:00:40.354 You will not want to miss that. 0:00:41.006 --> 0:00:45.206 The second half of the story starts at the Logie's 0:00:45.604 --> 0:00:49.476 and comes crashing down in a tuna aisle of a supermarket. 0:00:49.805 --> 0:00:53.874 Mainly because this is about Lisa's time on breakfast TV, 0:00:54.245 --> 0:00:59.206 specifically her 10 years at the Today Show, alongside Karl Stefanovic. 0:01:00.026 --> 0:01:02.916 And I'm not gonna lie, it gets pretty raw. Again, 0:01:02.995 --> 0:01:06.756 there was stuff in here that I never knew. Lisa 0:01:06.756 --> 0:01:11.335 and Carl had incredible chemistry on air, but off air? Well, 0:01:11.676 --> 0:01:13.555 that's where things start getting a little 0:01:13.555 --> 0:01:14.265 murky. 0:01:14.475 --> 0:01:16.545 I couldn't talk to him for 2 hours, apart from 0:01:16.545 --> 0:01:19.716 what was scripted. I just couldn't talk to him. For 0:01:19.716 --> 0:01:23.636 the first time in over a decade, I didn't trust 0:01:23.636 --> 0:01:25.416 myself that I was gonna play nice. 0:01:26.276 --> 0:01:28.795 Here's part two of my chat with Lisa. 0:01:30.325 --> 0:01:35.106 The way women's magazine editors are depicted often in the 0:01:35.526 --> 0:01:40.835 male mainstream media, whether it's in Devil Wears Prada or newspapers, 0:01:41.276 --> 0:01:46.846 is often dumb, just high heels, frivolous. It's a really 0:01:46.846 --> 0:01:52.365 sexist stereotype, I think. When you went into television, and 0:01:52.365 --> 0:01:57.566 particularly into news television, so when you started hosting Weekend Sunrise, 0:01:57.846 --> 0:01:59.986 and filling in on weekday sunrise, 0:02:01.176 --> 0:02:06.486 Was there a sense of, oh, she's the, the Cleo lass, 0:02:06.695 --> 0:02:09.315 she doesn't know the serious business, cause not many people 0:02:09.496 --> 0:02:13.934 also change careers or change mediums at that stage in 0:02:13.935 --> 0:02:15.715 their life. You weren't 25. 0:02:17.066 --> 0:02:17.895 No reception did you get? 0:02:17.976 --> 0:02:21.336 Well, I was never planning on going into television, ever. 0:02:21.575 --> 0:02:23.875 I used to look at television and think, 0:02:24.566 --> 0:02:26.524 You know, there's some women on television I really like, 0:02:26.605 --> 0:02:30.845 but my God, what an awful medium to be working in. 0:02:31.044 --> 0:02:33.085 Why did you think that? Well, because it was sexist 0:02:33.085 --> 0:02:35.964 for a start, I mean, you'd never see a woman 0:02:35.965 --> 0:02:40.726 hosting any kind of current affairs program. Very few women 0:02:40.726 --> 0:02:44.926 were taken seriously as, as political journalists, whereas now that's 0:02:44.925 --> 0:02:45.486 the norm. 0:02:45.756 --> 0:02:49.085 And women were sort of like the decoration, 0:02:49.196 --> 0:02:49.286 yeah, 0:02:49.405 --> 0:02:52.265 decoration, who the bauble that sits on the side and, 0:02:52.895 --> 0:02:56.566 Ironically, as Ginger Rogers said, does everything that Fred Astaire does, 0:02:56.615 --> 0:02:59.405 but backwards in heels, while the man does all the 0:02:59.405 --> 0:03:02.575 serious stuff. And even when it was, you know, Kochie 0:03:02.575 --> 0:03:05.336 and Mel, even though Mel is an extraordinary journalist and 0:03:05.335 --> 0:03:07.736 that wasn't the reality of the situation, it was often. 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:12.331 Depicted like that, or Steve Liebman and Tracey Grimshaw on 0:03:12.361 --> 0:03:15.800 the Today Show, back in the 90s. Did you have 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:16.961 a lot to prove? 0:03:17.161 --> 0:03:21.120 I am the archetypal frog that got put in a 0:03:21.119 --> 0:03:23.021 saucepan of cold water. 0:03:24.096 --> 0:03:28.105 And then slowly came to the boil is how I 0:03:28.105 --> 0:03:31.946 see my career in television because I went on maternity 0:03:31.946 --> 0:03:38.045 leave with my second child, Louis, in 1995. I'd had 0:03:38.045 --> 0:03:42.646 10 incredible years at Clio and I said, 0:03:43.265 --> 0:03:46.905 I'm done. I think I'm done and I want you 0:03:46.905 --> 0:03:48.904 to put a new editor in. They didn't want to 0:03:48.905 --> 0:03:51.105 put a new editor in. They said, we'll just hold 0:03:51.105 --> 0:03:54.035 the job for you for 12 months. And I said, 0:03:54.506 --> 0:03:58.464 I'm a mum, I've got 2 kids. I feel like 0:03:58.465 --> 0:04:01.385 I need to do something new. Right now, I wanna 0:04:01.385 --> 0:04:04.866 be a mum. I just, I've worked so hard for 0:04:04.866 --> 0:04:08.825 so long, and I know I'm smart at what I do. 0:04:08.976 --> 0:04:09.105 How 0:04:09.105 --> 0:04:10.586 old were you when you had Louis? 0:04:11.135 --> 0:04:13.896 Mid-30s. You wanted a rest, you'd been going, not a rest, 0:04:13.976 --> 0:04:17.525 it's not a rest having two kids at home, but 0:04:17.525 --> 0:04:19.976 you had been working nonstop since you were 21 and 0:04:19.976 --> 0:04:21.435 answered that Girl Friday ad. 0:04:22.324 --> 0:04:25.005 So I get that you had the break. What did 0:04:25.005 --> 0:04:29.924 you find most, like, surprising and difficult to adjust to 0:04:29.924 --> 0:04:32.025 when you, cause when you went to the Today Show 0:04:32.525 --> 0:04:36.565 and hosted with Carl, you were the, what, 4th co-host 0:04:36.565 --> 0:04:39.315 in 4 years or something? Less? 0:04:39.484 --> 0:04:41.464 Somebody asked me this the other day. So there was, 0:04:41.604 --> 0:04:44.204 he started with Tracy started with Tracy, and then he 0:04:44.204 --> 0:04:44.634 had 0:04:44.634 --> 0:04:47.073 Jess Rowe, then Sarah Murdoch. 0:04:47.164 --> 0:04:48.904 Sarah Murdoch, and then Kelly Connolly. 0:04:49.375 --> 0:04:50.124 Kelly, and then 0:04:50.125 --> 0:04:50.965 you, and then me. 0:04:51.534 --> 0:04:54.505 And so, first of all, when was the first time 0:04:54.505 --> 0:04:56.186 you met? You tell a story in the book about 0:04:56.186 --> 0:04:58.466 meeting at the Logies, when there was all this speculation 0:04:58.466 --> 0:05:00.986 in the newspaper about you were gonna jump from sunrise 0:05:00.986 --> 0:05:04.544 to We in Sunrise to the Today Show. What was 0:05:04.545 --> 0:05:06.215 that meeting like? Basically, 0:05:06.224 --> 0:05:09.746 what had happened, I mean, right throughout my career, when 0:05:09.746 --> 0:05:14.465 I went from Fairfax to ACP, when I went from 0:05:14.466 --> 0:05:17.706 Channel 7 to Channel 9, and when I went from 0:05:17.706 --> 0:05:19.335 Channel 9 to Channel 10, 0:05:20.436 --> 0:05:24.575 I've always moved because an offer has come along and 0:05:24.836 --> 0:05:28.594 I've always agonized over it because every single job I've 0:05:28.594 --> 0:05:31.396 ever had, even right back to at the age of 0:05:31.396 --> 0:05:35.594 15 working at Wrench's shoe store in Campbelltown on Thursday 0:05:35.594 --> 0:05:39.595 nights and Saturday mornings, I've loved every job I've ever had. 0:05:39.716 --> 0:05:44.075 I've always approached work with enormous gratitude. 0:05:44.686 --> 0:05:47.755 And I've made the most of every single day and 0:05:47.755 --> 0:05:49.836 every single job that I've had, and I've never had 0:05:49.836 --> 0:05:53.194 an eye to something else. It's always been because something 0:05:53.195 --> 0:05:56.276 else has come along, and I've thought, I wonder if 0:05:56.276 --> 0:05:57.176 I'm done here. 0:05:57.556 --> 0:05:59.395 And Eddie McGuire came and tapped you on the shoulder. 0:05:59.515 --> 0:06:01.556 He was CEO at the time. Well, Eddie 0:06:01.556 --> 0:06:06.474 approached me via, it's all explained in the book of 0:06:06.474 --> 0:06:07.594 how it all happened. 0:06:08.116 --> 0:06:11.474 I'd known Eddie from my Cleo days because when I 0:06:11.474 --> 0:06:14.956 took out the centerfold, I thought, you know, if you're 0:06:14.956 --> 0:06:18.755 gonna take away 12 naked guys with one hand, you've 0:06:18.755 --> 0:06:22.915 gotta give Australian women something back. And not long after 0:06:22.914 --> 0:06:25.135 I got rid of the centerfold, I thought, I know, 0:06:25.315 --> 0:06:28.635 I'll start Australia's list of 50 most eligible bachelors. And 0:06:28.635 --> 0:06:28.906 Eddie 0:06:28.906 --> 0:06:29.586 was one of them, 0:06:30.075 --> 0:06:33.015 Eddie was desperate to be on that list, let's be honest, 0:06:33.116 --> 0:06:35.116 and a few of his mates were on the list 0:06:35.116 --> 0:06:35.836 from Melbourne. 0:06:36.414 --> 0:06:39.466 And he came along a couple of years in a row, 0:06:39.505 --> 0:06:41.785 and he kept giving me his business card, and he 0:06:41.784 --> 0:06:44.385 was incredibly charming, and he was single, and he was 0:06:44.385 --> 0:06:47.955 very successful, and I thought, I'll give this poor guy 0:06:47.956 --> 0:06:50.255 a break. And then, you know, 0:06:50.306 --> 0:06:52.505 I didn't know that, so all those years later, he 0:06:52.505 --> 0:06:54.265 came and approached you 0:06:54.265 --> 0:06:59.164 for this job. At that point, I'd been asked by 0:06:59.385 --> 0:07:01.065 the infamous Mark Llewellyn. 0:07:01.676 --> 0:07:07.135 On the very day that the whole boning incident broke, 0:07:07.594 --> 0:07:10.035 I was at lunch with Mark Llewellyn, who was the 0:07:10.035 --> 0:07:12.956 head of news and current affairs at Nine, and I'd 0:07:12.956 --> 0:07:15.355 known him since I was 19, 0 no, it must 0:07:15.355 --> 0:07:18.126 have been 21, because he was a mate of my 0:07:18.126 --> 0:07:22.466 then boyfriend's who worked at the ABC and we ran 0:07:22.466 --> 0:07:24.135 into each other at a friend's wedding. 0:07:24.725 --> 0:07:27.405 At a time when I was hosting Weekend Sunrise, so 0:07:27.406 --> 0:07:29.646 he was trying to poach you. Well, no, we were 0:07:29.646 --> 0:07:32.486 just getting together for lunch, because when we saw each 0:07:32.486 --> 0:07:34.605 other at this wedding, he said, oh let's get together, 0:07:34.646 --> 0:07:37.646 we've got so many stories to share, and he'd just 0:07:37.646 --> 0:07:41.445 come back from, basically being the guy on the ground 0:07:41.445 --> 0:07:45.165 for both the Today Show and The Current Affair at 0:07:45.165 --> 0:07:48.216 the mining disaster in Beaconsfield in Tasmania. 0:07:48.936 --> 0:07:51.376 And we sat down to have lunch and he was 0:07:51.376 --> 0:07:55.095 distracted throughout the entire lunch cos he said, I've got 0:07:55.095 --> 0:07:58.475 a really important phone call coming through. That was, which 0:07:58.475 --> 0:08:02.736 was the infamous shit sandwich story. You've gotta read the 0:08:02.736 --> 0:08:03.665 book to understand all this so 0:08:05.595 --> 0:08:09.165 so there's so delicious detail. The first time you met Kyle, 0:08:09.496 --> 0:08:09.776 what was 0:08:09.776 --> 0:08:10.336 it like? 0:08:11.466 --> 0:08:16.986 Well, I had been offered the Morning Show, which was 0:08:16.986 --> 0:08:20.265 just about to start on Channel 7 after Sunrise because 0:08:20.265 --> 0:08:23.944 Sunrise at that time was a runaway success. It was 0:08:23.945 --> 0:08:26.045 doubling the Today Show's numbers. 0:08:26.595 --> 0:08:32.444 And Adam Bolan, the genius behind the Sunrise brand, going back, 0:08:32.876 --> 0:08:35.314 was starting up the morning show and he said, I 0:08:35.315 --> 0:08:38.595 really want you to host this show and I've already 0:08:38.595 --> 0:08:43.075 got your co-host, it's Larry Emda. And he said, I 0:08:43.076 --> 0:08:46.236 can see it already, the Lisa and Larry show, but 0:08:46.236 --> 0:08:47.915 we're gonna call it the morning show, but everybody will 0:08:47.915 --> 0:08:51.555 knows Lisa and Larry because obviously Mel and Kochie were 0:08:52.105 --> 0:08:55.895 a single entity in Australia's mind at that stage. 0:08:56.566 --> 0:08:57.105 And 0:08:57.955 --> 0:08:58.975 I remembered thinking, 0:09:00.056 --> 0:09:03.616 I know Larry Emdda's a journalist, but he was best 0:09:03.616 --> 0:09:07.826 known as a quiz show guy at that point. And 0:09:07.936 --> 0:09:09.205 Adam looked at me and he said, I know what 0:09:09.205 --> 0:09:10.975 you're thinking, he's a quiz show guy, but he's not, 0:09:11.056 --> 0:09:15.175 and I know you two will be fantastic together, but 0:09:15.176 --> 0:09:17.215 that happened at the same time as I was offered 0:09:17.215 --> 0:09:20.376 the Today Show, and no one knew that I'd been 0:09:20.376 --> 0:09:24.176 approached by Channel Nine. It all happened very quickly. But 0:09:24.176 --> 0:09:25.455 on the day, 0:09:26.236 --> 0:09:30.155 That someone tried to obviously force my hand, it was 0:09:30.155 --> 0:09:31.535 leaked to the papers. 0:09:32.415 --> 0:09:36.935 Now, the Today Show co-hosting role at that point was 0:09:36.936 --> 0:09:40.334 the most talked about job on Australian television, and it 0:09:40.335 --> 0:09:42.715 was a bit of a poisoned chalice because Carl had 0:09:42.725 --> 0:09:47.175 had so many women he'd sat next to. Sunrise had 0:09:47.176 --> 0:09:48.655 double the numbers. 0:09:49.076 --> 0:09:49.946 And 0:09:50.405 --> 0:09:52.366 it was a bit of a hospital pass in a way, 0:09:52.446 --> 0:09:54.946 wasn't it? Well, yeah, I mean, no, that sounds bad, 0:09:55.006 --> 0:09:59.285 but it was like daunting because there'd been so many 0:09:59.285 --> 0:10:02.645 people through that chair, they hadn't confirmed that it was 0:10:02.645 --> 0:10:05.045 gonna be anybody, so it was like, who's it gonna be? 0:10:05.196 --> 0:10:06.006 And also the media. 0:10:06.410 --> 0:10:10.410 hated the Today Show at that stage. Sunrise was the 0:10:10.410 --> 0:10:13.571 hottest show on television. It was. But the problem was 0:10:13.571 --> 0:10:16.891 having hosted Weekend Sunrise and having filled in for Mel 0:10:16.891 --> 0:10:20.131 a couple of times, you had the bug. Breakfast TV 0:10:20.131 --> 0:10:23.090 is intoxicating because you are. 0:10:24.285 --> 0:10:27.035 In people's lounge rooms in the morning, you're helping them 0:10:27.035 --> 0:10:31.415 wake up at a time in the day when everyone's unshowered, 0:10:31.736 --> 0:10:35.175 everyone's feeling a bit raw, you know, parents are trying 0:10:35.176 --> 0:10:39.415 to find missing socks and make school lunches and if 0:10:39.415 --> 0:10:43.196 you can be a bright, informed presence in their lives, 0:10:43.655 --> 0:10:47.095 I mean, that's such an extraordinary privilege to be welcomed 0:10:47.095 --> 0:10:50.016 into people's homes and for them to trust you. 0:10:50.645 --> 0:10:55.376 And I understood what that was at sunrise, but I 0:10:55.376 --> 0:10:59.996 also understood that Mel had a job for life. The 0:10:59.996 --> 0:11:06.176 obvious successor, yeah, the obvious successor was Natalie Barr. Um, 0:11:07.056 --> 0:11:12.136 if I was really, really, really lucky when I was 112, 0:11:12.975 --> 0:11:13.676 that 0:11:13.676 --> 0:11:14.486 job could be mine. 0:11:14.725 --> 0:11:16.295 You might be in with a chance. And 0:11:16.295 --> 0:11:16.496 I 0:11:16.496 --> 0:11:18.316 just thought, I know that. 0:11:18.655 --> 0:11:21.126 That job looks like a poisoned chalice at the moment. 0:11:22.426 --> 0:11:27.446 But I've got the bug and I know everybody's kind 0:11:27.446 --> 0:11:29.145 of having a bit of a go at this guy 0:11:29.145 --> 0:11:31.946 Karl Stefanovic, but every so often when I tune in 0:11:31.946 --> 0:11:33.686 I think he's kind of funny. 0:11:34.436 --> 0:11:36.636 And a few times I'd seen him out on the 0:11:36.636 --> 0:11:39.996 road at breaking stories and I thought he's actually quite 0:11:39.996 --> 0:11:42.436 a good journo. He's very good at that. So when 0:11:42.436 --> 0:11:45.996 I was offered I was unsure, but if there's one 0:11:45.996 --> 0:11:49.196 day in the year when you don't want that story 0:11:49.196 --> 0:11:52.355 on the front page of the papers, it's probably the 0:11:52.355 --> 0:11:56.295 day of the Logies and that story broke on the day, 0:11:56.725 --> 0:11:59.975 That I had landed in Melbourne as a guest of 0:11:59.975 --> 0:12:04.665 Channel 7 to sit on the Sunrise table and front 0:12:04.665 --> 0:12:05.545 page of many 0:12:05.545 --> 0:12:06.136 newspapers. 0:12:06.285 --> 0:12:07.535 Lisa goes to Channel 9. Well, 0:12:07.576 --> 0:12:10.595 it was, she's probably going to go, 0:12:10.665 --> 0:12:12.326 right, and you hadn't decided yet. 0:12:12.775 --> 0:12:15.775 I definitely hadn't decided. The, the offer had only been 0:12:15.775 --> 0:12:19.756 made a few days before, and I was desperate that 0:12:19.756 --> 0:12:22.136 no-one knew about it because I didn't, I didn't want 0:12:22.136 --> 0:12:23.556 the pressure of deciding. 0:12:24.095 --> 0:12:24.756 Publicly, 0:12:24.895 --> 0:12:26.465 who introduced you to Kyle that night? 0:12:26.936 --> 0:12:29.345 Well, I went to the loo, and as you may know, 0:12:29.415 --> 0:12:31.695 when you go to the loo at the Logies, you 0:12:31.696 --> 0:12:34.616 have to do it in about 13 seconds flat because 0:12:34.616 --> 0:12:38.025 it's a live broadcast. Yeah, and the problem with going 0:12:38.025 --> 0:12:40.766 to the loo at the Logies, particularly the women's loo, 0:12:40.975 --> 0:12:43.886 is everybody's got zippers and buttons and chill 0:12:43.886 --> 0:12:44.516 and 0:12:45.215 --> 0:12:47.055 you know, there's stuff going on in the toilets that, 0:12:47.095 --> 0:12:49.855 you know, means that there's a very long queue because 0:12:49.855 --> 0:12:52.275 a lot of women are catching up, haven't seen each other. 0:12:52.725 --> 0:12:54.975 In a long time, and so going to the loo 0:12:54.975 --> 0:12:57.056 takes a long time, so getting in and out in 0:12:57.056 --> 0:12:59.795 the space of one commercial break is well nigh impossible, 0:12:59.816 --> 0:13:03.256 and they slam the doors shut, the minute they're back 0:13:03.256 --> 0:13:06.415 from the ad break, and I got caught, and I 0:13:06.415 --> 0:13:09.016 sort of looked around and there's always a bar right 0:13:09.016 --> 0:13:10.094 outside the room. 0:13:11.746 --> 0:13:14.506 Back in the days when it was at Crown, and 0:13:14.506 --> 0:13:17.855 I saw Larry Emer standing at the bar, and Larry 0:13:17.855 --> 0:13:20.436 and I had not had any conversation about the fact 0:13:20.436 --> 0:13:23.266 that I'd been offered the morning show, so it was 0:13:23.266 --> 0:13:26.085 news to them as well wow that I was not, 0:13:27.076 --> 0:13:29.496 Necessarily going to go to the morning show, and I 0:13:29.496 --> 0:13:30.636 saw Larry and I thought, 0:13:31.395 --> 0:13:34.835 I'm just gonna have to face this front on, and 0:13:34.835 --> 0:13:37.915 I waved, and he went, oh hi, how are you? 0:13:37.955 --> 0:13:41.295 and he sort of walked over towards me, and um 0:13:41.386 --> 0:13:43.866 he said it's great to see you, how weird is this? 0:13:44.236 --> 0:13:46.275 And I said, yeah, I know, look, I'd love to 0:13:46.275 --> 0:13:48.155 chat to you about it, but I really can't. And 0:13:48.155 --> 0:13:50.116 he said, that's OK, I think there's probably somebody else 0:13:50.116 --> 0:13:52.475 you'd like to chat to. And he sort of grabbed 0:13:52.475 --> 0:13:54.555 the shoulder of the guy standing behind him at the 0:13:54.556 --> 0:13:56.475 bar and said, Lisa Wilkinson, I'd like you to meet 0:13:56.475 --> 0:13:57.496 Karl Stefanovic. 0:13:58.576 --> 0:14:01.705 And I thought, oh my God, this just isn't gonna 0:14:01.705 --> 0:14:04.945 get any worse than this, like, so what did Karl 0:14:04.946 --> 0:14:05.926 say awkward. 0:14:07.236 --> 0:14:12.556 We basically started making each other laugh from the opening sentence. 0:14:13.345 --> 0:14:17.525 And we got through yet another commercial break and stayed talking, 0:14:17.866 --> 0:14:21.436 because I think we both knew that this was now. 0:14:22.256 --> 0:14:23.155 An audition, 0:14:23.455 --> 0:14:24.355 a chemistry test, 0:14:24.376 --> 0:14:26.645 for both of us. And 0:14:27.415 --> 0:14:30.855 We just knew that we got on really well. We 0:14:30.855 --> 0:14:34.176 made each other laugh, there was no pregnant pause in 0:14:34.176 --> 0:14:35.256 the conversation. 0:14:36.016 --> 0:14:38.835 And I think Larry Emda just sort of stood back 0:14:38.835 --> 0:14:41.926 and folded his arms feeling like a very proud old builder. 0:14:43.605 --> 0:14:47.035 Well, the rest is history. You became the host. Today 0:14:47.035 --> 0:14:50.775 dominated the ratings, you and Carl were a formidable team. 0:14:52.465 --> 0:14:56.366 A lot has been speculated on in terms of your 0:14:56.366 --> 0:15:00.266 off-air friendship and what went on, you've written about it 0:15:00.266 --> 0:15:01.605 extensively in the book. 0:15:02.655 --> 0:15:07.116 How would you characterize your off-air relationship compared to your 0:15:07.116 --> 0:15:08.455 on-air relationship? 0:15:08.715 --> 0:15:10.056 On-air was pretty magical. 0:15:11.056 --> 0:15:14.085 And it was an on-air relationship that 0:15:15.105 --> 0:15:17.936 Was kind of so good we never talked about it, 0:15:18.585 --> 0:15:20.545 because it's one of those things where you think, if 0:15:20.545 --> 0:15:23.066 you start to question it or examine it, maybe some 0:15:23.066 --> 0:15:26.215 of the magic would go, in some ways Carl and 0:15:26.215 --> 0:15:29.225 I were quite different, and that was also part of 0:15:29.225 --> 0:15:29.986 the magic. 0:15:30.785 --> 0:15:33.316 And we could definitely make each other laugh, we could 0:15:33.316 --> 0:15:35.016 definitely challenge each other. 0:15:35.975 --> 0:15:40.236 But it was actually a really good on-air relationship. 0:15:41.225 --> 0:15:44.345 We almost never saw each other off-air. 0:15:45.085 --> 0:15:48.486 And there were times when I wondered why that was, 0:15:48.645 --> 0:15:50.645 because I did tend to reach out a lot more 0:15:50.645 --> 0:15:54.806 than Carl ever reached out. But, you know, the magic 0:15:54.806 --> 0:15:58.205 continued on air, and we went from a show that 0:15:58.205 --> 0:16:03.405 had half the ratings of Sunrise to building, like, we 0:16:03.405 --> 0:16:06.886 had our first win within 12 months of us being together, which, 0:16:06.955 --> 0:16:09.025 you know, Carl and I went out and celebrated. 0:16:09.436 --> 0:16:13.176 With his wife and my husband, because we couldn't believe 0:16:13.176 --> 0:16:15.756 that in the space of just 12 months, we'd managed 0:16:15.756 --> 0:16:18.275 to do that, and we both looked at each other 0:16:18.275 --> 0:16:21.876 that night and said, whatever happens from here, we can 0:16:21.876 --> 0:16:25.516 always say that once upon a time, we beat sunrise. 0:16:26.155 --> 0:16:28.155 So it was a great night of celebration. 0:16:29.085 --> 0:16:32.845 But, um, as I say in the book, for a 0:16:32.845 --> 0:16:35.926 long time Carl wanted to get off breakfast TV. He 0:16:35.926 --> 0:16:37.426 wanted to do prime time. 0:16:37.965 --> 0:16:39.455 Um, did you ever talk about that? 0:16:39.965 --> 0:16:41.616 No, I never found out about 0:16:41.616 --> 0:16:45.605 that. Were there parameters in your, like, I imagine it's 0:16:45.605 --> 0:16:48.936 very intimate, you're with each other from 5:30 in the 0:16:48.936 --> 0:16:51.725 morning or whatever it is, you turn up half asleep, 0:16:52.205 --> 0:16:54.886 see each other in your most difficult times, you're covering 0:16:54.886 --> 0:16:57.225 breaking news, the highs and the lows. 0:16:58.605 --> 0:17:00.566 I think it was 4 hours a day at one stage, 0:17:00.645 --> 0:17:02.946 the Today Show seemed to go for hours and hours. 0:17:03.785 --> 0:17:04.405 5 days a week. 0:17:04.525 --> 0:17:08.525 The day that um Julia Gillard became Prime Minister, we 0:17:08.525 --> 0:17:10.085 were on air from 5 a.m. 0:17:10.555 --> 0:17:12.435 Until 4 p.m. So 0:17:12.435 --> 0:17:14.675 the amount of trust I imagine is massive, where you 0:17:14.675 --> 0:17:17.136 have to have each other's backs and I've watched you 0:17:17.136 --> 0:17:17.555 two on 0:17:17.555 --> 0:17:17.815 set 0:17:17.815 --> 0:17:21.095 and know each other's strengths and weaknesses, which is crucial 0:17:21.675 --> 0:17:24.276 when you're sitting next to somebody, you know, particularly when 0:17:24.276 --> 0:17:26.575 there's a camera on you, because you want to cover 0:17:26.575 --> 0:17:27.075 for each other. 0:17:27.266 --> 0:17:30.016 Correct. So, given that, 0:17:30.996 --> 0:17:34.126 Things were not quite like that off-air. I mean, you 0:17:34.126 --> 0:17:37.486 weren't fighting, but it just wasn't as close as it seemed. 0:17:38.916 --> 0:17:40.636 What do you say to the people who go, Oh, 0:17:40.866 --> 0:17:43.815 were you, were you faking it? Was everything on air fake? 0:17:44.075 --> 0:17:48.876 No, because journalistically, we respected each other enormously, and our 0:17:48.876 --> 0:17:52.146 job was not to sit there as Arthur and Martha and, 0:17:52.386 --> 0:17:54.916 you know, mum and dad, and, you know, just pretend 0:17:54.916 --> 0:17:55.896 that we were, 0:17:56.725 --> 0:18:00.945 A couple, yeah, because we were there as professionals, and 0:18:00.945 --> 0:18:04.646 you know, to be a professional journalist, you are presenting 0:18:04.646 --> 0:18:08.666 the news, but also, yes, there's lighter segments, I mean there, 0:18:09.325 --> 0:18:12.866 there's those videos on YouTube called the Today Show funny bits, 0:18:13.325 --> 0:18:16.496 and I think there's something like 100 episodes of it, 0:18:16.886 --> 0:18:19.666 and occasionally I'll go on YouTube for something, 0:18:20.126 --> 0:18:23.386 And you know how YouTube decides what you're probably gonna 0:18:23.386 --> 0:18:26.046 be interested in next, it's amazing how often the Today 0:18:26.046 --> 0:18:29.906 Show funny bits come up, and in writing the book, 0:18:30.246 --> 0:18:33.685 you know, a few times I've gone down that rabbit hole. 0:18:34.406 --> 0:18:38.575 And I look at some of those videos and there 0:18:38.575 --> 0:18:42.455 was so much joy in sitting next to Carl because 0:18:42.455 --> 0:18:46.496 we could really make each other laugh, we could really 0:18:46.496 --> 0:18:51.595 surprise each other sometimes, and there is so much about 0:18:51.595 --> 0:18:57.315 that on-air relationship that I feel so grateful for. 0:18:57.906 --> 0:18:59.935 There were also times, you know, when we'd be doing 0:18:59.935 --> 0:19:04.055 political interviews, and we were doing them solo and Carl 0:19:04.055 --> 0:19:06.026 would pass me a note and say, ask this, or 0:19:06.026 --> 0:19:08.095 I would pass him a note and say pass this. 0:19:08.626 --> 0:19:10.935 So, I watched you on set a lot when I 0:19:10.935 --> 0:19:12.945 used to come on the Today Show and, you know, 0:19:13.095 --> 0:19:15.685 off-air and on air and in between the commercial breaks 0:19:15.685 --> 0:19:19.626 and everything, and you knew each other so well, like 0:19:19.626 --> 0:19:22.386 watching a doubles match or something, you know, like two 0:19:22.386 --> 0:19:23.486 people who just, 0:19:24.786 --> 0:19:26.445 Move so effortlessly. 0:19:27.605 --> 0:19:29.526 You write in the book about when you got married, 0:19:29.756 --> 0:19:31.565 you know, there were some moments where you felt really 0:19:31.565 --> 0:19:33.526 let down by him. So when you and Pete decided 0:19:33.526 --> 0:19:36.646 to renew your vows and he RSVP late, or the 0:19:36.646 --> 0:19:39.116 rumors were that he was having his vasectomy reversed in 0:19:39.116 --> 0:19:42.605 LA and he didn't turn up and he didn't, or 0:19:42.605 --> 0:19:44.205 he said he was gonna come and then two days 0:19:44.205 --> 0:19:45.126 later he canceled. 0:19:46.026 --> 0:19:49.465 What struck me reading that is that you didn't confront 0:19:49.465 --> 0:19:54.506 him about anything, about when you read about, oh, he's 0:19:54.506 --> 0:19:57.626 been negotiating with Channel 7 about maybe moving or getting 0:19:57.626 --> 0:20:00.825 off the Today Show. He didn't, you know, come to 0:20:00.825 --> 0:20:03.345 the wedding, and he was quite cavalier about that. 0:20:04.455 --> 0:20:06.315 You never sort of said. 0:20:07.355 --> 0:20:09.516 Hey, I was pretty pissed off with you, or I 0:20:09.516 --> 0:20:12.036 was pretty upset, or why am I reading this in 0:20:12.036 --> 0:20:14.116 the paper? Was that just not the relationship 0:20:14.116 --> 0:20:17.516 you had? In writing the book, I really wondered why 0:20:17.516 --> 0:20:19.156 I didn't do that. Yeah, 0:20:19.236 --> 0:20:20.975 cos you're not a wallflower. 0:20:21.396 --> 0:20:22.036 No, I'm not. 0:20:22.195 --> 0:20:24.095 Listen to what you said to Kerry Packer. 0:20:25.855 --> 0:20:30.486 I've had to really examine why I did that. I 0:20:30.486 --> 0:20:32.925 think part of my problem, and I'm sure a lot 0:20:32.925 --> 0:20:35.366 of women listening to this will recognize it. 0:20:36.725 --> 0:20:39.925 We can tend as women to want to be the peacemaker, 0:20:40.845 --> 0:20:45.266 to be the one that sort of stills the troubled waters. 0:20:46.075 --> 0:20:49.475 And I was also very aware that I could have 0:20:49.475 --> 0:20:53.075 agitated a lot more than I did, and I could've 0:20:53.075 --> 0:20:56.215 questioned a lot more, but I always felt that if 0:20:56.215 --> 0:21:00.715 I did, it would muck up our chemistry. 0:21:01.276 --> 0:21:02.636 And yet he didn't feel that way. 0:21:03.335 --> 0:21:04.685 I don't know, you'd have to ask him. 0:21:05.585 --> 0:21:07.626 Over the years, there were a few tensions on set, 0:21:07.715 --> 0:21:11.105 not necessarily between Carl and me. There were others on 0:21:11.105 --> 0:21:14.906 the team, and there were times when I felt like 0:21:14.906 --> 0:21:17.945 the meat in the sandwich where I had to calm 0:21:17.945 --> 0:21:20.825 things down before we came back from a commercial break, 0:21:21.345 --> 0:21:23.225 and we got through it. 0:21:23.945 --> 0:21:28.175 And in the end, my loyalty was always to the audience. 0:21:28.876 --> 0:21:32.825 I had my relationships with the team and you know 0:21:32.825 --> 0:21:36.555 both on air and off-air, but my loyalty every single 0:21:36.555 --> 0:21:38.496 day when I walked into that studio, 0:21:39.276 --> 0:21:41.595 It was twofold. First of all, it was to the 0:21:41.595 --> 0:21:44.876 audience and my profession as a journalist to do the 0:21:44.876 --> 0:21:48.896 best possible job as we presented the news every day. 0:21:49.355 --> 0:21:51.516 It also goes back to the very first day that 0:21:51.516 --> 0:21:55.156 I was ever on TV sitting at a desk, and 0:21:55.156 --> 0:21:56.945 that was when I did Beauty and the Beast, and 0:21:56.945 --> 0:22:00.036 that was when I went on maternity leave. For starters, 0:22:00.075 --> 0:22:02.475 I thought, how weird that I would, 0:22:03.055 --> 0:22:06.345 Get this opportunity to work on television because it was 0:22:06.345 --> 0:22:09.906 only for 13 weeks I think we were doing this show, 0:22:09.916 --> 0:22:11.906 Beauty and the Beast, and it was Foxtel which had 0:22:11.906 --> 0:22:14.105 only just started, so no one was watching anyway, so 0:22:14.105 --> 0:22:16.666 it wasn't really much of a test, but on that 0:22:16.666 --> 0:22:18.965 very first day when I walked in, I was sitting, 0:22:19.796 --> 0:22:21.766 The idea behind Beauty and the Beast was there was 0:22:21.766 --> 0:22:23.526 one guy sitting in the middle who was meant to 0:22:23.526 --> 0:22:26.725 be the sort of misogynistic agitator as he read out 0:22:26.725 --> 0:22:29.675 letters from viewers to four women sitting 0:22:29.675 --> 0:22:29.725 at 0:22:29.725 --> 0:22:30.886 deliberately controversial 0:22:30.886 --> 0:22:31.236 and 0:22:31.236 --> 0:22:34.805 deliberately or solve my dilemma, you know, I've just discovered 0:22:34.805 --> 0:22:39.866 that my brother's sleeping with my, you know, sister-in-law and whatever. 0:22:40.286 --> 0:22:42.205 When I sat down at the desk that day, I 0:22:42.205 --> 0:22:45.366 was with 3 women, including Jennie Little. Between them I 0:22:45.366 --> 0:22:47.845 think they had something like 60 years of experience in television. 0:22:47.955 --> 0:22:49.246 I had exactly 0. 0:22:50.055 --> 0:22:52.305 And I was sitting next to a guy called Stan Zamani, 0:22:52.595 --> 0:22:55.166 who was a late night shock jock on AM radio 0:22:55.166 --> 0:22:59.095 at the time, and the head of Foxtel came out and, 0:22:59.105 --> 0:23:02.085 you know, obviously there to pump us all up and 0:23:02.185 --> 0:23:04.256 said to us, how are we all feeling? And the 0:23:04.256 --> 0:23:07.146 other three women were beside themselves with joy, and Stan 0:23:07.146 --> 0:23:08.185 and I said nothing. 0:23:09.075 --> 0:23:11.756 And Brian came over to us and he said, 0:23:12.496 --> 0:23:15.406 What the hell's wrong with you two, and almost in unison, 0:23:15.536 --> 0:23:20.296 Stan and I, you know, felt this brotherly, sisterly relationship 0:23:20.296 --> 0:23:25.016 as absolute, you know, novices in television, and almost in 0:23:25.016 --> 0:23:28.595 unison we said, we've never done this before. We have 0:23:28.595 --> 0:23:32.975 no clue what we're meant to do now. And it 0:23:32.975 --> 0:23:36.916 was another OFFS moment in my life because he said, 0:23:37.095 --> 0:23:40.095 for fuck's sake, get over yourself, it's only television. 0:23:40.825 --> 0:23:43.506 And it was such a wake-up call to me. It's 0:23:43.506 --> 0:23:46.065 just like, I'm not curing cancer here. None of us 0:23:46.065 --> 0:23:50.266 are curing cancer. We're hoping to entertain some people, maybe 0:23:50.266 --> 0:23:51.805 have some intelligent conversations 0:23:51.805 --> 0:23:54.825 with their cornflakes, looking for their socks. Totally. 0:23:55.416 --> 0:23:58.746 Totally. And so, that was my first time of ever 0:23:58.746 --> 0:24:01.425 looking down the barrel of a camera and trying to 0:24:01.425 --> 0:24:04.425 pretend that that black hole is one person that I 0:24:04.425 --> 0:24:06.526 can connect with. And so, 0:24:07.075 --> 0:24:12.305 Brian taught me also the lesson of approach every show 0:24:12.305 --> 0:24:13.845 as if it is your last. 0:24:14.796 --> 0:24:18.916 Working in television is something that very few people get 0:24:18.916 --> 0:24:22.075 to do and if you enjoy it, and as a journalist, 0:24:22.156 --> 0:24:26.036 if you feel the enormous privilege of what you're getting 0:24:26.036 --> 0:24:27.756 to do, I mean the fact that I get to 0:24:27.756 --> 0:24:30.756 interview prime ministers, like, who gets to do that? Who 0:24:30.756 --> 0:24:34.666 gets to hold politicians to account, and so, you know, 0:24:35.036 --> 0:24:37.636 particularly every day on the Today Show, when I walked 0:24:37.636 --> 0:24:38.776 in that studio, 0:24:39.416 --> 0:24:43.026 I presumed that today was gonna be the last day 0:24:43.026 --> 0:24:45.866 and that someone was gonna tap me on the shoulder 0:24:46.486 --> 0:24:48.805 and blow me down if somebody did. 0:24:50.736 --> 0:24:53.136 I'm Mia Freedman and you're listening to part two of 0:24:53.136 --> 0:24:55.296 my conversation with Lisa Wilkinson. 0:24:57.965 --> 0:25:00.646 I wanna ask you, when you found out that Carl 0:25:00.646 --> 0:25:02.486 was being paid so much more than you to do 0:25:02.486 --> 0:25:03.546 the same job. 0:25:04.085 --> 0:25:05.805 That was, that was, I. 0:25:06.776 --> 0:25:08.815 Somebody contacted me who'd been 0:25:09.605 --> 0:25:15.845 Involved in the negotiations, his negotiations, in Carl's negotiations with 0:25:15.886 --> 0:25:19.305 Channel Seven, and there was no reason to question this person. 0:25:21.195 --> 0:25:23.626 Because Carl was planning to maybe leave Channel 9 and 0:25:23.626 --> 0:25:24.605 go to Channel 7. Yeah. 0:25:25.036 --> 0:25:26.996 And he was the master. I mean, you talk about 0:25:26.996 --> 0:25:30.396 Donald Trump's The Art of the Deal. He was brilliant 0:25:30.396 --> 0:25:33.656 at it. I take my hat off to him because 0:25:33.715 --> 0:25:36.376 there's a lot of what goes on in television that 0:25:36.516 --> 0:25:39.475 involves bullshit, let's face it. You know, there's a lot 0:25:39.475 --> 0:25:43.855 of the stuff behind the scenes, and I've somehow, you know, 0:25:43.996 --> 0:25:47.955 who knows how I've managed to survive in that environment by, 0:25:49.075 --> 0:25:51.445 Making sure that I've followed a 0:25:52.195 --> 0:25:54.925 A set of personal values and a moral code that 0:25:54.925 --> 0:25:58.205 I'm comfortable with, because there's a lot that can go 0:25:58.205 --> 0:26:00.925 on behind the scenes that I'm not comfortable with, and 0:26:00.925 --> 0:26:05.105 I stay away from, but when it came to negotiations 0:26:05.805 --> 0:26:06.886 with other networks, 0:26:07.746 --> 0:26:11.646 And with the network that Carl works for, he was brilliant. 0:26:12.225 --> 0:26:13.195 And it was, 0:26:14.046 --> 0:26:16.406 Almost entertaining to watch, he was so good at it. 0:26:16.526 --> 0:26:16.886 He played 0:26:16.886 --> 0:26:17.975 the game very well. Yeah, 0:26:18.766 --> 0:26:18.876 and, 0:26:19.555 --> 0:26:21.886 and to his credit, to his credit, but obviously finding 0:26:21.886 --> 0:26:24.325 out that you weren't being paid the same or anywhere 0:26:24.325 --> 0:26:28.406 near the same as him, you then asked for not 0:26:28.406 --> 0:26:33.565 even parity, but something closer to parity than you had. 0:26:34.636 --> 0:26:37.205 You were then in the supermarket, negotiations were dragging on, 0:26:37.286 --> 0:26:39.345 you write in the book, you were in the supermarket. 0:26:40.205 --> 0:26:43.166 In the tuna aisle, holding a can of tuna, when 0:26:43.166 --> 0:26:45.445 you get a phone call from your agent to say 0:26:45.445 --> 0:26:48.205 that it's over, that they've said they're not renewing your 0:26:48.205 --> 0:26:49.925 contract and the negotiations are dead. 0:26:51.386 --> 0:26:52.335 What brand of tuna 0:26:52.335 --> 0:26:52.766 was it? 0:26:53.016 --> 0:26:57.225 John West, basil and oven dried tomato. And 0:26:57.225 --> 0:26:59.585 what was the emotion that you felt, what was the 0:26:59.585 --> 0:27:02.666 first emotion that you felt when Nick, your agent, told 0:27:02.666 --> 0:27:03.325 you that? 0:27:03.585 --> 0:27:04.585 Uh, 0:27:04.746 --> 0:27:05.945 oh, shock. 0:27:06.185 --> 0:27:07.585 Did you feel humiliated? 0:27:07.746 --> 0:27:12.345 Oh, all of the emotions just cascaded out. No, I 0:27:12.345 --> 0:27:15.256 didn't get to anger. No. Took me a while to 0:27:15.256 --> 0:27:16.546 get to anger. Yeah. 0:27:18.166 --> 0:27:18.236 Uh 0:27:19.565 --> 0:27:23.845 So what had happened was I'd been negotiating for 0:27:26.075 --> 0:27:27.065 Most of that year. 0:27:27.975 --> 0:27:29.345 For my contract renewal. 0:27:30.546 --> 0:27:33.626 And I'd made it clear that because I'd had the 0:27:33.626 --> 0:27:36.945 absolute detail of what Carl was on, and I don't 0:27:36.945 --> 0:27:38.866 take anything away from him, I want to make that 0:27:38.866 --> 0:27:41.445 absolutely clear. If he could negotiate a deal like that, 0:27:41.786 --> 0:27:42.425 good for him. 0:27:43.366 --> 0:27:43.916 But 0:27:45.075 --> 0:27:49.315 The breakfast TV market is a really lucrative market, and 0:27:49.315 --> 0:27:51.335 we had taken that show together. 0:27:52.246 --> 0:27:54.166 In the space of 10 years to number one. 0:27:55.315 --> 0:27:57.236 Coming from a place where, you know, 0:27:58.335 --> 0:28:00.575 That job that I took on was a bit of 0:28:00.575 --> 0:28:01.536 a poisoned chalice. 0:28:02.756 --> 0:28:05.046 And I felt it was about time that the spoils 0:28:05.046 --> 0:28:08.105 got shared around a little more equitably. 0:28:09.315 --> 0:28:10.055 And 0:28:10.776 --> 0:28:13.656 We'd had 3 attempts to speak to the head of 0:28:13.656 --> 0:28:14.656 Channel 9 about. 0:28:15.595 --> 0:28:18.156 How we maneuver closer to something that feels. 0:28:19.805 --> 0:28:20.266 Fair 0:28:21.845 --> 0:28:25.166 And they'd actually put an offer on the table. 0:28:26.796 --> 0:28:30.546 And I went off and Pete and I got remarried, 0:28:31.006 --> 0:28:34.335 and I was first day back at the desk. 0:28:35.406 --> 0:28:36.965 And I did the show. 0:28:37.975 --> 0:28:42.305 And that afternoon, as I always did, I did the 0:28:42.305 --> 0:28:45.786 afternoon conference call with all of the main producers and 0:28:45.786 --> 0:28:46.906 the executive producer. 0:28:48.116 --> 0:28:51.136 So that I knew what was on the next day's show. 0:28:52.236 --> 0:28:54.046 And I'd actually been trying to get in touch with 0:28:54.046 --> 0:28:59.366 my executive producer for 4 or 5 days because I 0:28:59.366 --> 0:29:03.605 discovered while I was away on our second honeymoon, that 0:29:04.006 --> 0:29:08.166 I had been cut from the upfronts, which is the 0:29:08.166 --> 0:29:13.136 annual presentation that every network and every major media organization 0:29:13.136 --> 0:29:16.435 does to the advertising industry to say, look at this 0:29:16.435 --> 0:29:19.205 suite of fabulous shows and talent that we've got 0:29:19.205 --> 0:29:20.945 for you, um. 0:29:21.796 --> 0:29:25.675 Loved and most valued talent prominently on display, 0:29:25.766 --> 0:29:29.276 yeah, and a few months, or maybe a month or 0:29:29.276 --> 0:29:32.396 so before, I'd found out that the role that Karl 0:29:32.396 --> 0:29:35.666 and I always played in the upfronts wasn't gonna be 0:29:35.666 --> 0:29:39.675 happening this year, and that Georgie was doing it with Karl. 0:29:40.565 --> 0:29:43.616 And I approached both Carl and Georgie and said, do 0:29:43.616 --> 0:29:45.516 you know, do you know what's going on here? 0:29:46.236 --> 0:29:48.396 And they both sort of dismissed it and said, oh, 0:29:48.616 --> 0:29:51.876 you know, oh, I don't know, I'm just, no, don't know. 0:29:52.996 --> 0:29:55.396 And I thought, oh, that's OK. The timing of that's 0:29:55.396 --> 0:29:58.075 actually really unfortunate because that's when Pete and I are 0:29:58.075 --> 0:30:01.516 gonna be away on our second honeymoon, and every year 0:30:01.516 --> 0:30:05.516 you're told you have to be at these upfronts because, 0:30:05.675 --> 0:30:05.866 you know, 0:30:05.996 --> 0:30:07.675 you've gotta schmooze with advertisers. All 0:30:07.675 --> 0:30:08.156 holidays 0:30:08.156 --> 0:30:09.136 get canceled. 0:30:10.555 --> 0:30:14.286 And anyway, I asked, is there any chance I can 0:30:14.286 --> 0:30:17.555 still go away, I'll fly back and do the upfront 0:30:17.555 --> 0:30:19.225 in the middle of this week off. 0:30:20.146 --> 0:30:22.065 And I was told by the head of Channel 90 no, 0:30:22.116 --> 0:30:24.065 don't you worry, you just go off and have your holiday, 0:30:24.146 --> 0:30:26.705 it'll be fine. Did you feel a bit sick? I 0:30:26.705 --> 0:30:28.626 was so excited about. 0:30:29.675 --> 0:30:33.305 All of our beautiful friends and family, including your gorgeous self, 0:30:33.435 --> 0:30:35.715 being there, because none of you knew that we were 0:30:35.715 --> 0:30:38.756 getting married again. We were just saying to all the 0:30:38.756 --> 0:30:41.516 people who have been such a support to us. 0:30:41.595 --> 0:30:44.266 It was just gonna be like a celebration, wasn't it? 0:30:44.276 --> 0:30:45.315 And then you renewed your 0:30:45.315 --> 0:30:46.136 vows. 0:30:47.256 --> 0:30:49.746 It was while I was away that I got calls 0:30:49.746 --> 0:30:53.305 from mates at Channel Nine who said, why weren't you 0:30:53.305 --> 0:30:55.246 in the upfronts? And I said, no, don't be silly. 0:30:55.455 --> 0:30:58.465 I know I wasn't hosting, but I spent a morning 0:30:58.465 --> 0:31:01.266 filming in the car park for something that was gonna 0:31:01.266 --> 0:31:04.065 be slotted in along with all the other people who 0:31:04.065 --> 0:31:07.345 couldn't be there for the big event. They sent me 0:31:07.345 --> 0:31:11.105 the link to the video and I was definitely not 0:31:11.105 --> 0:31:11.916 in the video. 0:31:12.636 --> 0:31:16.156 And I'd been ringing my executive producer for days trying 0:31:16.156 --> 0:31:17.475 to find out what was going on. 0:31:18.236 --> 0:31:19.475 And he wouldn't get back to me. 0:31:20.605 --> 0:31:22.105 When I got on the conference call, 0:31:23.116 --> 0:31:26.756 I said to my executive producer Mark, Mark, did you 0:31:26.756 --> 0:31:29.236 get all my messages? I've been waiting to hear from you. 0:31:29.906 --> 0:31:32.156 And he said, oh no, I didn't, I must have 0:31:32.156 --> 0:31:34.315 missed them. Look, come on, we've got to do the 0:31:34.315 --> 0:31:36.675 rest of the call. He said nothing. 0:31:37.546 --> 0:31:41.406 And I'd literally just hung up from the conference call 0:31:41.715 --> 0:31:43.075 when Nick, my manager called me. 0:31:43.156 --> 0:31:43.396 So no 0:31:43.396 --> 0:31:45.276 one at Channel Nine even called to tell you that 0:31:45.276 --> 0:31:46.146 you were axed. 0:31:46.355 --> 0:31:46.715 Never. 0:31:47.486 --> 0:31:49.085 I've never heard from any of them. 0:31:49.246 --> 0:31:52.406 And why would they not let you back on air 0:31:52.406 --> 0:31:55.166 the next day to say goodbye? Why did they treat 0:31:55.166 --> 0:31:59.286 you like some kind of criminal and disrespect the Today 0:31:59.286 --> 0:32:02.166 Show fans and not allow you to come back and 0:32:02.166 --> 0:32:03.996 say goodbye? What was their reasoning? 0:32:04.166 --> 0:32:04.286 I 0:32:04.286 --> 0:32:07.406 was never told, so I can only guess. What 0:32:07.406 --> 0:32:08.325 did they think you were gonna 0:32:08.325 --> 0:32:08.866 do? 0:32:12.536 --> 0:32:14.886 I have no clue, you would have to ask them that. 0:32:15.376 --> 0:32:18.246 I think they were trying to make an example of me, 0:32:18.656 --> 0:32:22.416 because there had been talk about the big gender pay 0:32:22.416 --> 0:32:25.656 gap that existed at the Today Show desk. There'd been 0:32:25.656 --> 0:32:28.416 a lot of talk about it. Charlie Pickering had asked 0:32:28.416 --> 0:32:30.616 me about it on his show. 0:32:31.355 --> 0:32:34.065 And I had to do a lot of, 0:32:35.036 --> 0:32:38.166 I was a duck, and I was paddling real hard 0:32:38.166 --> 0:32:39.205 under the 0:32:39.205 --> 0:32:41.136 throw your employer under the bus, but you also didn't 0:32:41.136 --> 0:32:41.825 wanna lie, 0:32:42.095 --> 0:32:44.835 but I also didn't wanna throw Karl under the bus, 0:32:45.376 --> 0:32:46.996 so I had to kind of say, look, 0:32:47.825 --> 0:32:50.705 I don't really know what Carl's on, but he doesn't 0:32:50.705 --> 0:32:53.906 really know what I'm on, and of course Charlie Pickering 0:32:53.906 --> 0:32:55.646 said to me, I call bullshit. 0:32:56.646 --> 0:32:59.955 Awkward. So there were a lot of headlines about the 0:32:59.955 --> 0:33:00.435 gender pay 0:33:00.435 --> 0:33:00.666 gap. 0:33:00.736 --> 0:33:04.195 You think it was like, don't any of you get 0:33:04.195 --> 0:33:04.565 too 0:33:05.465 --> 0:33:06.195 bolshy. Well, 0:33:06.266 --> 0:33:07.955 it's a good way to scare other women off who 0:33:07.955 --> 0:33:09.416 might be asking for a pay rise. 0:33:10.626 --> 0:33:13.016 And I'm not the first, and I'm not the only 0:33:13.016 --> 0:33:16.185 industry where that stuff happens, but you know, if you 0:33:17.986 --> 0:33:19.435 If you start to 0:33:21.026 --> 0:33:24.085 Think maybe I'm worth more to my employer than. 0:33:25.325 --> 0:33:27.705 Than they do, that's when you start thinking, 0:33:28.935 --> 0:33:33.646 Do I really want to be here anymore, and quite bizarrely, 0:33:35.256 --> 0:33:40.656 Just 4 weeks before I'd been approached by the project, and, 0:33:41.465 --> 0:33:44.065 Again, Channel 9 had no clue. 0:33:44.925 --> 0:33:49.156 That I've been approached by Channel 10. So, that was 0:33:49.286 --> 0:33:51.215 just something that I had in my back pocket, and 0:33:51.215 --> 0:33:54.736 I'd been questioning for a couple of months, whether I 0:33:54.736 --> 0:33:59.656 was still happy there, and I still don't know where 0:33:59.656 --> 0:34:01.695 I was going to go with the fact that there 0:34:01.695 --> 0:34:04.536 was an offer on the table, and Nick had said 0:34:04.536 --> 0:34:05.815 to me while I was away, 0:34:06.786 --> 0:34:09.625 This offer from Channel 10 is sitting here. They really, really, 0:34:09.786 --> 0:34:10.705 really want you. 0:34:11.906 --> 0:34:14.665 There's an offer from Channel 9 as well, what do 0:34:14.665 --> 0:34:18.865 you want to do? And I couldn't decide, and I 0:34:18.864 --> 0:34:22.465 was so confused by Carl not contacting me after he 0:34:22.464 --> 0:34:24.785 didn't turn up at the wedding, and I was so 0:34:24.786 --> 0:34:27.806 confused that my executive producer wouldn't speak to me. 0:34:28.725 --> 0:34:32.286 And I said to Nick, I think I just need 0:34:32.286 --> 0:34:34.605 to go to work on Monday and decide how I feel. 0:34:36.806 --> 0:34:39.665 And I went to work on Monday and something. 0:34:41.036 --> 0:34:42.766 A couple of weird things happened. 0:34:43.975 --> 0:34:46.056 Carl never said anything about the fact that he didn't 0:34:46.056 --> 0:34:46.895 turn up at the wedding. 0:34:47.694 --> 0:34:49.006 Until the cameras went on. 0:34:51.245 --> 0:34:52.874 And I had a moment of thinking. 0:34:54.174 --> 0:34:59.296 Right, so this is actually just a relationship for the cameras. 0:35:01.205 --> 0:35:05.114 He never texted me, he never said congratulations, he texted 0:35:05.114 --> 0:35:08.085 Pete and said we're not coming, but he never texted me. 0:35:09.725 --> 0:35:13.326 And I was trying to compute all of that because 0:35:13.326 --> 0:35:14.805 I never understood. 0:35:16.506 --> 0:35:19.085 Why he wouldn't talk to me. 0:35:20.996 --> 0:35:21.796 And 0:35:22.756 --> 0:35:23.465 That morning 0:35:25.475 --> 0:35:29.154 The only congratulations I got was when we started the 0:35:29.154 --> 0:35:30.276 show at 5:30. 0:35:30.955 --> 0:35:33.305 And I was, I was furious. 0:35:34.516 --> 0:35:37.815 Cos I also felt a bit foolish, cos I just thought. 0:35:38.944 --> 0:35:41.655 I don't even know what this relationship is. I don't. 0:35:42.895 --> 0:35:45.736 This is purely just a relationship for the cameras. 0:35:46.915 --> 0:35:50.195 And I couldn't talk to him for 2 hours, apart 0:35:50.194 --> 0:35:53.065 from what was scripted, I just couldn't talk to him. 0:35:53.395 --> 0:35:56.965 For the first time in over a decade, I didn't 0:35:56.964 --> 0:35:59.155 trust myself that I was gonna play nice. 0:36:00.046 --> 0:36:02.766 And so I chatted to Sylvia, who'd also been at 0:36:02.766 --> 0:36:05.746 the wedding and who remains a good friend. 0:36:07.006 --> 0:36:08.986 But then I got to 7:30. 0:36:09.694 --> 0:36:12.475 And I remember the promise I'd always made to myself. 0:36:13.404 --> 0:36:15.374 That I would do every show as if it was 0:36:15.375 --> 0:36:16.195 my last. 0:36:17.185 --> 0:36:20.236 Because part of the problem also was the rundown for 0:36:20.236 --> 0:36:24.796 that day was really weird. Almost every interview was being 0:36:24.796 --> 0:36:28.435 done by Carl on his own. I got the girls chat. 0:36:29.674 --> 0:36:30.725 At 8:40 0:36:32.645 --> 0:36:35.955 And I ended up sending an email to both Pete 0:36:35.955 --> 0:36:39.415 and Nick, my manager, and said there's something really weird 0:36:39.415 --> 0:36:40.015 going on. 0:36:40.996 --> 0:36:45.796 I've just come off a show that's gone from being 0:36:45.796 --> 0:36:49.756 the Today Show to being the Carl Show, and I 0:36:49.756 --> 0:36:52.055 don't even know where I fit in here anymore, I mean, 0:36:52.516 --> 0:36:54.256 what is this, the 1960s? 0:36:56.415 --> 0:36:59.635 And then that afternoon, got the phone call from Nick, 0:37:00.016 --> 0:37:03.736 and he said um he'd just come from the head 0:37:03.736 --> 0:37:05.425 of Channel Nine's office. 0:37:06.375 --> 0:37:09.625 And I said, oh, how did it go, because I 0:37:09.625 --> 0:37:12.006 knew that he was having a conversation with him that afternoon. 0:37:12.955 --> 0:37:15.096 And he said, you're off the show. 0:37:16.006 --> 0:37:17.665 And I said to him, off what show? 0:37:19.276 --> 0:37:20.535 And he said the Today Show. 0:37:22.036 --> 0:37:23.536 You're never to appear again. 0:37:26.904 --> 0:37:28.125 And I was literally 0:37:29.736 --> 0:37:33.135 I was deciding between the, the lemon vinaigrette can of 0:37:33.134 --> 0:37:36.174 tuna and the oven dried tomato can of tuna. 0:37:37.134 --> 0:37:39.296 I had a moment where I thought, 0:37:41.026 --> 0:37:42.595 I know I just heard that. 0:37:44.125 --> 0:37:47.654 But did that just come over the loudspeaker? 0:37:48.444 --> 0:37:51.286 Like, is everybody who's wandering around this supermarket right now, 0:37:51.364 --> 0:37:52.625 did they hear that as well? 0:37:53.375 --> 0:37:56.585 Oh, you felt so vulnerable and exposed. 0:37:56.654 --> 0:37:57.695 I felt. 0:37:59.435 --> 0:38:00.746 I felt really. 0:38:02.546 --> 0:38:03.736 First of all, it was shock. 0:38:04.725 --> 0:38:06.286 And then it was. 0:38:09.185 --> 0:38:10.165 Humiliation. 0:38:12.205 --> 0:38:14.046 And then it was. 0:38:15.276 --> 0:38:15.815 Thinking 0:38:16.935 --> 0:38:17.614 Wow 0:38:18.634 --> 0:38:21.194 All those moments when I didn't go to the kids' 0:38:21.194 --> 0:38:25.076 school concerts because I had work things going on. All 0:38:25.076 --> 0:38:28.796 those birthdays because we were on the road for our 0:38:28.796 --> 0:38:32.475 We Love Australia tours, all those wedding anniversaries that I 0:38:32.475 --> 0:38:35.955 missed because I was, you know, somewhere in outback New 0:38:35.955 --> 0:38:39.495 South Wales. All those times when I was grumpy because 0:38:39.496 --> 0:38:40.815 I wasn't getting enough sleep. 0:38:43.065 --> 0:38:45.904 When it came to loyalty to the show, I don't 0:38:45.904 --> 0:38:49.745 think anybody had the loyalty to that show the way 0:38:49.746 --> 0:38:50.486 that I did. 0:38:51.424 --> 0:38:52.095 And yet 0:38:52.776 --> 0:38:55.335 And I know I was paid well. I don't for 0:38:55.335 --> 0:38:58.536 a moment want anybody to feel sorry for me in 0:38:58.536 --> 0:39:00.415 that way, because I was paid well. 0:39:02.455 --> 0:39:06.296 But the loyalty that I had to that show was 0:39:06.296 --> 0:39:09.614 not reciprocated by the person that was running Channel 9 0:39:09.614 --> 0:39:11.856 at that time, that counted for nothing. 0:39:12.884 --> 0:39:15.605 I had to grow up really quickly, and I had 0:39:15.605 --> 0:39:17.225 to sort of remind myself. 0:39:18.335 --> 0:39:19.435 It's only the television. 0:39:21.134 --> 0:39:21.884 And 0:39:22.855 --> 0:39:25.685 I remember driving home and thinking, cos I tried to 0:39:25.685 --> 0:39:28.634 call Pete and his phone went straight to voicemail. 0:39:30.415 --> 0:39:32.256 And then I thought, oh, I'll call Carl. 0:39:33.756 --> 0:39:34.575 And then I thought, 0:39:35.955 --> 0:39:37.516 Is that why you didn't come to the wedding? 0:39:39.006 --> 0:39:40.904 Is that why he never texted me? 0:39:42.065 --> 0:39:45.746 Is that why the show this morning, because remember, you know, 0:39:45.944 --> 0:39:48.265 Carl's the guy that wore the same suit for a 0:39:48.266 --> 0:39:51.865 year because he didn't like, he said, the way that 0:39:51.864 --> 0:39:56.125 women in television were treated, and yet, why didn't he 0:39:56.125 --> 0:39:57.645 question the rundown that morning? 0:39:58.435 --> 0:40:01.765 That was so Carl heavy, it was just the Carl 0:40:01.766 --> 0:40:04.486 show that morning. Like why didn't he stand up and 0:40:04.486 --> 0:40:05.246 say something? 0:40:07.746 --> 0:40:10.915 And then I thought, does my executive producer know that 0:40:10.915 --> 0:40:12.175 I've just been sacked? 0:40:12.996 --> 0:40:13.776 Oh, hang on 0:40:14.496 --> 0:40:18.975 Is that why he didn't return my calls? Is that 0:40:18.975 --> 0:40:22.375 why he wouldn't come down on set that morning? 0:40:24.364 --> 0:40:27.085 Because, you know, and I'd questioned him, I'd, on the 0:40:27.085 --> 0:40:31.826 internal messaging system, I'd sent a message to him, you know, 0:40:32.165 --> 0:40:34.975 what's going on with the rundown, why I'm hardly in here? 0:40:35.404 --> 0:40:38.315 Is this a mistake? And all I got back was, 0:40:38.565 --> 0:40:39.424 it's not a mistake. 0:40:41.964 --> 0:40:44.246 And I waited about 5 minutes because that kind of 0:40:44.246 --> 0:40:45.806 chilled me to the bone. 0:40:46.605 --> 0:40:48.445 Cos I was thinking I don't, I don't know what's 0:40:48.444 --> 0:40:51.605 happening here, and I messaged him again and I said 0:40:51.605 --> 0:40:53.326 can I see you after the show, and I got 0:40:53.326 --> 0:40:53.945 no response. 0:40:54.826 --> 0:40:57.736 And I went upstairs to see him. He wasn't there. 0:40:58.026 --> 0:41:01.215 He was normally running a 9:30 meeting, didn't turn up 0:41:01.214 --> 0:41:03.286 for that, no one knew where he was. 0:41:04.026 --> 0:41:06.815 How do you get closure on all of this? Did 0:41:06.815 --> 0:41:07.664 you ever have it out with 0:41:07.665 --> 0:41:12.306 Carl? I insisted that we go to lunch two weeks afterwards. 0:41:12.384 --> 0:41:12.826 Did he call 0:41:12.826 --> 0:41:14.895 you that night? I can't remember. Well, 0:41:14.944 --> 0:41:15.905 you were there that night, 0:41:16.065 --> 0:41:17.776 but I can't remember that night that. 0:41:18.806 --> 0:41:21.085 I just heard on the radio, I think that you 0:41:21.085 --> 0:41:23.236 were leaving the Today Show cos they just put the 0:41:23.236 --> 0:41:26.606 press release out straight away, didn't they? It all happened 0:41:26.605 --> 0:41:26.714 quite 0:41:26.714 --> 0:41:26.725 quickly. 0:41:27.605 --> 0:41:32.506 No, no, you turned up cos I think Billy told you. 0:41:33.085 --> 0:41:33.725 No, I 0:41:33.725 --> 0:41:35.205 heard it on the radio. 0:41:35.694 --> 0:41:38.654 Lisa Wilkinson has left the Today Show. 0:41:38.815 --> 0:41:39.414 Were you there 0:41:39.415 --> 0:41:40.335 that late in the piece, 0:41:40.455 --> 0:41:40.815 were you? 0:41:41.016 --> 0:41:43.256 It's all a blur. I can't, unless I got a 0:41:43.256 --> 0:41:45.464 text from Pete, I don't know. Ah, you got a 0:41:45.464 --> 0:41:47.996 text from I got a text from Pete. Because 0:41:47.996 --> 0:41:48.215 he 0:41:48.214 --> 0:41:52.374 texted all of my closest girlfriends to, to let them 0:41:52.375 --> 0:41:53.336 know what was 0:41:53.335 --> 0:41:54.894 about to hit that 0:41:54.895 --> 0:41:57.875 cause then I grabbed some champagne because then he said, 0:41:57.924 --> 0:42:00.134 also the project because it had all happened within about 0:42:00.134 --> 0:42:03.135 20 minutes. She's going to 10, and so I just 0:42:03.134 --> 0:42:04.675 grabbed some champagne, got in the car. 0:42:05.424 --> 0:42:08.425 And then it all just unfolded, kind of in slow 0:42:08.424 --> 0:42:10.424 motion that night. It was, you know, I was so 0:42:10.424 --> 0:42:12.855 worried about you, you were sort of in shock. You 0:42:12.855 --> 0:42:15.125 still had your makeup on from the show that morning. 0:42:15.915 --> 0:42:17.875 I don't even remember what there was no tuna in sight, 0:42:17.955 --> 0:42:20.715 that's for sure. Um, I think someone ordered pizza, I 0:42:20.714 --> 0:42:21.864 can't remember. The tuna 0:42:21.864 --> 0:42:23.875 was put back on the shelf along with the toilet 0:42:23.875 --> 0:42:24.046 paper. 0:42:24.114 --> 0:42:26.355 I was in my pajamas and I'm trying to remember 0:42:26.355 --> 0:42:29.114 your phone was blowing up and I'm trying to remember 0:42:29.114 --> 0:42:30.826 if Carl called you that night. 0:42:30.996 --> 0:42:35.455 To be honest, there were so many messages from people, texts, everything. 0:42:36.634 --> 0:42:40.435 That even in more recent times, in writing the book, 0:42:40.875 --> 0:42:44.536 I've gone to text people to check facts with them, 0:42:44.756 --> 0:42:48.674 and I've found that they sent me a message that 0:42:48.674 --> 0:42:50.435 night that I hadn't 0:42:50.435 --> 0:42:50.715 seen. 0:42:50.835 --> 0:42:53.236 I remember you stepped outside to speak to Carrie Bickmore 0:42:53.236 --> 0:42:54.364 to welcome you and Carrie 0:42:54.364 --> 0:42:58.915 and Wali called me that night. And so far, and 0:42:58.915 --> 0:43:03.856 the executive producer of Sunrise rang, Michael Pell, to thank me. 0:43:04.685 --> 0:43:07.425 But so you called Carl and said, let's go to lunch. 0:43:09.194 --> 0:43:09.986 Two weeks later. 0:43:10.154 --> 0:43:14.096 To be honest, I can't remember who contacted who, but, 0:43:14.864 --> 0:43:17.326 It took a little while for the lunch to happen. 0:43:18.026 --> 0:43:21.325 I was so happy to be going to the project. 0:43:21.464 --> 0:43:24.745 I was beyond thrilled to be going to the project. 0:43:24.826 --> 0:43:27.865 I mean, that was such an important step in the 0:43:27.864 --> 0:43:31.585 right direction for me. I was sad about the, 0:43:31.694 --> 0:43:32.065 um, 0:43:32.346 --> 0:43:34.225 the fact that they smeared you as you walked out 0:43:34.225 --> 0:43:36.345 the door at Channel 9. Were you sad about that? 0:43:36.546 --> 0:43:39.736 I was pretty fucking enraged about that. Well, 0:43:40.105 --> 0:43:42.305 you know, a lot of that, I've only seen in 0:43:42.306 --> 0:43:44.465 recent times. Again, in writing. 0:43:44.565 --> 0:43:47.715 The book, I've had to go back and read what 0:43:47.714 --> 0:43:48.535 was being put out 0:43:48.536 --> 0:43:51.944 there at the time. They painted you out as being greedy. 0:43:52.174 --> 0:43:52.614 I do 0:43:52.614 --> 0:43:54.975 know that 9 producers were gonna be sacked. 0:43:55.685 --> 0:43:58.174 They said, if we'd have paid her what she wanted, 0:43:58.256 --> 0:44:00.845 we would have had to sack 9 or 10 producers, 0:44:01.134 --> 0:44:03.576 which was never said about Kyle's salary. And the other 0:44:03.576 --> 0:44:05.736 thing that was said by the head of Channel 9 0:44:05.736 --> 0:44:09.654 at the time was, I've got 7 or 8 women 0:44:09.654 --> 0:44:11.276 who can sit in that chair tomorrow. 0:44:12.904 --> 0:44:13.475 Which 0:44:14.306 --> 0:44:17.825 Putting you to one side, the level of disrespect that 0:44:17.826 --> 0:44:18.506 it showed. 0:44:19.246 --> 0:44:22.904 The Today Show audience, it treated you as so incidental, 0:44:23.125 --> 0:44:25.975 and what came after this, and I can say this, 0:44:26.046 --> 0:44:29.684 you don't have to, but when the Today Show ratings 0:44:29.685 --> 0:44:30.546 fell in a heap, 0:44:31.306 --> 0:44:35.286 And the next thing that incensed me was how all 0:44:35.286 --> 0:44:39.124 these TV critics and media journalists were writing about, was 0:44:39.125 --> 0:44:44.765 it Kyle's marriage breakdown that caused people to leave the 0:44:44.766 --> 0:44:47.046 Today Show and move to Sunrise. And it's like, nobody 0:44:47.046 --> 0:44:50.925 pinpointed the fact that ratings collapsed after you left. After 0:44:50.924 --> 0:44:56.506 you left in such an undignified, rude, unfair, unjust way, 0:44:56.605 --> 0:44:59.006 without explanation in the dead of the night. 0:44:59.815 --> 0:45:01.335 That's when ratings tanked. 0:45:02.826 --> 0:45:04.404 That's not a question, that's just a comment. 0:45:05.975 --> 0:45:07.576 Would you like me to write an addendum in your 0:45:07.576 --> 0:45:07.705 book? 0:45:08.096 --> 0:45:09.346 Tony Jones on Q&A? 0:45:11.296 --> 0:45:14.336 Exactly. I'm giving myself a comment. How do you heal 0:45:14.335 --> 0:45:17.296 from that? Closure is such a cliched word, but how 0:45:17.296 --> 0:45:20.286 do you process all of that when it happens in 0:45:20.286 --> 0:45:21.895 such a shock, and it must have triggered a whole 0:45:21.895 --> 0:45:24.855 lot of things about bullying and a million different things 0:45:24.855 --> 0:45:25.475 for you? 0:45:25.935 --> 0:45:27.256 I just had to make peace with it. 0:45:27.455 --> 0:45:28.065 Therapy? 0:45:28.576 --> 0:45:28.885 No? 0:45:29.714 --> 0:45:32.315 No, no, not at all. I um. 0:45:34.975 --> 0:45:37.015 I just had to make peace with it and be 0:45:37.016 --> 0:45:41.736 realistic about it's television, yeah, and, again, I earn a 0:45:41.736 --> 0:45:45.975 good wage, I can't complain too much about, 0:45:47.096 --> 0:45:49.975 What happened, because, you know, a lot of television is 0:45:49.975 --> 0:45:50.835 a crapshoot. 0:45:51.556 --> 0:45:54.105 You know, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. 0:45:54.826 --> 0:45:58.246 It so happened that at the time, 0:45:59.205 --> 0:46:03.736 That I left, the gender pay gap was a real 0:46:04.435 --> 0:46:07.915 issue that was starting to open up wide for a 0:46:07.915 --> 0:46:10.874 lot of women, and a lot of industries were having 0:46:10.875 --> 0:46:13.194 to address it, and they were having to look at 0:46:13.194 --> 0:46:15.875 the skeletons in their own closet. So I think the 0:46:15.875 --> 0:46:19.415 timing of it was really unfortunate for Channel Nine and 0:46:19.776 --> 0:46:22.634 even more surprising because it was such a, a big 0:46:22.634 --> 0:46:23.556 talking point. 0:46:24.444 --> 0:46:25.245 And 0:46:26.346 --> 0:46:29.995 In terms of getting closure, there is nothing like moving 0:46:29.996 --> 0:46:33.395 on to something that brings you enormous joy and to 0:46:33.395 --> 0:46:37.355 be working with colleagues, the caliber of Walid and Carrie 0:46:37.355 --> 0:46:41.375 and Pete Hellier and Hamish McDonald and to be working 0:46:41.375 --> 0:46:45.864 with an extraordinary group of producers, you know, 0:46:46.036 --> 0:46:46.855 feeling appreciated. 0:46:47.236 --> 0:46:50.536 Yeah, the Walkley Award winners and you know, just, 0:46:51.246 --> 0:46:55.645 Amazing people, and it was about going to something brand 0:46:55.645 --> 0:46:58.526 new where I could learn a whole new lot of 0:46:58.526 --> 0:47:01.835 skills because the project is very different to the Today 0:47:01.835 --> 0:47:04.526 Show and I finally was gonna get to go out 0:47:04.526 --> 0:47:09.046 and do long form interviews and get my teeth into 0:47:09.046 --> 0:47:13.805 really meaty stories because breakfast TV absolutely has its place. 0:47:13.895 --> 0:47:18.134 But if it doesn't fit into 3 minutes then probably 0:47:18.134 --> 0:47:22.256 won't get to address it. Whereas on the project, you know, 0:47:22.335 --> 0:47:24.575 I can do something like Brittany Higgins that, that goes 0:47:24.576 --> 0:47:27.535 for half an hour. And I never got those opportunities 0:47:27.536 --> 0:47:31.335 at 9, and for whatever reason, 9 obviously decided that 0:47:31.335 --> 0:47:37.495 I didn't fit their mold or their brand or, you know, yeah, 0:47:37.756 --> 0:47:41.455 I wasn't Carl. So, you know, I got treated differently, 0:47:41.576 --> 0:47:43.395 but that's OK because I, 0:47:43.915 --> 0:47:48.435 will forever be grateful to David Gyngell, at 9, who 0:47:48.435 --> 0:47:49.995 was my great champion there. 0:47:50.404 --> 0:47:52.816 And there were so many good people that I worked 0:47:52.815 --> 0:47:57.286 with and particularly young producers and Tom Malone, who was my, 0:47:57.614 --> 0:48:00.975 who remains one of my closest friends, who was my 0:48:00.975 --> 0:48:03.836 first executive producer there for the 1st 6 years. I mean, 0:48:04.016 --> 0:48:07.296 he taught me more than just about anybody I've ever 0:48:07.296 --> 0:48:13.115 worked with. So I walk away having had incredible experiences 0:48:13.536 --> 0:48:17.695 and with a couple of really significant friendships that remain 0:48:17.694 --> 0:48:19.496 to this day. Who remains? 0:48:21.194 --> 0:48:24.486 I won't give them up because it probably makes it 0:48:24.486 --> 0:48:27.486 easier for them, because I don't, I think there's a 0:48:27.486 --> 0:48:29.444 legacy that I've got at Channel Nine that, 0:48:31.935 --> 0:48:33.225 That, so I, I, 0:48:33.296 --> 0:48:33.945 I'll give you 0:48:33.944 --> 0:48:35.575 an example if you said who your close friends are 0:48:35.576 --> 0:48:38.475 still at 9, it could make things difficult for them. 0:48:39.364 --> 0:48:41.526 Yes. My last question. 0:48:42.605 --> 0:48:45.145 Is not about TV it's about. 0:48:46.645 --> 0:48:49.085 You were an editor at 21. You were the youngest 0:48:49.085 --> 0:48:52.325 ever editor before or since, I think, of a mainstream magazine. 0:48:52.404 --> 0:48:56.355 Not that there's many magazines left now, but I became 0:48:56.355 --> 0:48:59.924 an editor at 25, and I thought that was really old, because, 0:49:00.725 --> 0:49:04.506 how funny is that? Because you did it at 21. 0:49:04.964 --> 0:49:09.245 I was the youngest editor of Cosmo at the time. Anyway, 0:49:09.364 --> 0:49:12.145 you and I have both been the youngest in the room. 0:49:13.085 --> 0:49:15.465 We're not the youngest in the room anymore, Lisa, we'll 0:49:15.464 --> 0:49:19.526 consider ain't. I'm the oldest here at Mamma Mia. I 0:49:19.526 --> 0:49:22.125 don't know if you're the oldest at the project, but. 0:49:22.806 --> 0:49:23.975 Um, I probably am. 0:49:24.806 --> 0:49:27.455 I love it when Barry Cassidy comes in. That's right. 0:49:28.125 --> 0:49:31.026 A bit of crusty Barry to make you feel youthful. 0:49:31.884 --> 0:49:35.346 How have you felt about milestone birthdays in an industry 0:49:35.346 --> 0:49:39.565 that really judges women by how they look, and not 0:49:39.565 --> 0:49:41.805 just TV but just being a woman in the public eye, 0:49:41.846 --> 0:49:43.346 it's very hard to get older. 0:49:43.685 --> 0:49:44.705 I've never found that. 0:49:45.556 --> 0:49:45.675 I 0:49:45.674 --> 0:49:45.835 mean, 0:49:45.955 --> 0:49:46.885 I tell me more about that. 0:49:46.996 --> 0:49:51.205 Well, I joined the Today Show in my late 40s, so. 0:49:52.286 --> 0:49:56.765 Age doesn't mean anything to me other than how bloody 0:49:56.766 --> 0:50:00.915 lucky am I to keep having birthdays. Yeah. Because we 0:50:00.915 --> 0:50:03.986 all know too many women who don't get that option, 0:50:04.435 --> 0:50:09.185 and I approach every year with nothing but gratitude that 0:50:09.286 --> 0:50:10.326 I'm still here. 0:50:10.935 --> 0:50:14.215 I'm still, you know, loving what I get to do 0:50:14.214 --> 0:50:17.535 for work. I still adore my husband, I have 3 0:50:17.536 --> 0:50:22.174 healthy kids. I have nothing to complain about, but I 0:50:22.174 --> 0:50:28.056 have an incredibly rich tapestry of life experience. 0:50:28.526 --> 0:50:30.996 And that was the reason why I wrote the book. 0:50:31.296 --> 0:50:34.455 It wasn't meant to be like this. When I was 0:50:34.455 --> 0:50:37.855 growing up in the 60s, you know, girls, when they 0:50:37.855 --> 0:50:40.374 got married, which was around about the age of 23, 0:50:40.415 --> 0:50:42.695 and by 30 you'd probably have a few kids under 0:50:42.694 --> 0:50:46.315 the belt, and really your life's mission. 0:50:47.165 --> 0:50:51.444 Was not over, but it was certainly preset at that 0:50:51.444 --> 0:50:53.826 stage because your job was to bring up the kids, 0:50:54.085 --> 0:50:57.445 and when you got to about 50, and you can 0:50:57.444 --> 0:51:00.526 no longer reproduce and you can no longer, you know, 0:51:00.924 --> 0:51:04.965 employment would have been really difficult, you know, here I 0:51:04.964 --> 0:51:09.864 am at this age, still doing something that I absolutely love. 0:51:10.415 --> 0:51:13.276 It's just like I am so incredibly lucky. 0:51:13.736 --> 0:51:18.145 And if I don't put down all of the incredible 0:51:18.145 --> 0:51:20.326 things that have happened to me and all of those, 0:51:21.486 --> 0:51:24.725 Huge disappointments that have also happened to me and how 0:51:24.725 --> 0:51:28.286 I've just decided I'm just gonna pick myself up and 0:51:28.286 --> 0:51:31.806 I'm gonna keep going, and in many ways those girls 0:51:31.806 --> 0:51:33.625 that bullied me at school, 0:51:35.705 --> 0:51:40.115 Allowed me to teach myself resilience, that, 0:51:42.475 --> 0:51:47.395 If you don't define yourself by the way others look 0:51:47.395 --> 0:51:52.315 at you, then you're halfway to a happy life. Because 0:51:52.326 --> 0:51:55.715 we've all got to find it within ourselves, our day 0:51:55.714 --> 0:51:59.096 to day happiness, because we're the only ones living this life. 0:51:59.516 --> 0:52:03.256 I just believe in choosing happiness wherever I can find it. 0:52:03.875 --> 0:52:07.296 Being surrounded by people that I genuinely know value me 0:52:07.296 --> 0:52:08.056 and love me. 0:52:08.746 --> 0:52:11.705 It's interesting how you get a bit more choosy, the 0:52:11.705 --> 0:52:16.455 older you get. You understand the things in life that really, 0:52:16.665 --> 0:52:21.625 truly matter, and you make sure that you're living every 0:52:21.625 --> 0:52:25.756 day with purpose and with gratitude and, 0:52:26.714 --> 0:52:30.174 You know, if you can take on board new teachings. 0:52:31.246 --> 0:52:33.526 That's an incredible thing. I want to be an amazing 0:52:33.526 --> 0:52:34.384 90 year old. 0:52:36.214 --> 0:52:38.736 I wanna be one of those crazy 90 year olds 0:52:38.736 --> 0:52:40.475 who's like Iris Apel. 0:52:40.694 --> 0:52:44.296 Yes, I wanna jump out of planes and just do 0:52:44.296 --> 0:52:46.455 everything that 90 year olds aren't meant to do. 0:52:47.335 --> 0:52:48.705 Let's go and get a tattoo. 0:52:50.214 --> 0:52:53.415 Now that's the one thing you know I won't do. I, 0:52:53.536 --> 0:52:56.134 I was appalled when you got a tattoo when you 0:52:56.134 --> 0:52:56.286 were working I'm gonna 0:52:57.355 --> 0:53:00.125 get another one. I'm gonna get another one just to 0:53:00.125 --> 0:53:03.214 my belly button ring ever? Did the hole ever close 0:53:03.214 --> 0:53:03.374 over? 0:53:03.404 --> 0:53:05.355 No, it got infected. I had to take it out. 0:53:06.346 --> 0:53:08.614 Australia is, is a better place having you in it. 0:53:08.895 --> 0:53:11.355 Australian women are lucky to have you. 0:53:12.236 --> 0:53:15.835 In the world, making the world a better place for us. 0:53:16.776 --> 0:53:21.685 And I feel lucky to call you a friend and 0:53:22.364 --> 0:53:25.596 You know, I'm one of many, many women who owe 0:53:25.766 --> 0:53:28.776 their careers to you, and I can't thank you enough. 0:53:29.174 --> 0:53:29.856 I love you. 0:53:31.725 --> 0:53:33.864 Don't do that to me because now I'm gonna cry. 0:53:36.605 --> 0:53:40.986 Can I, can I just say in return. 0:53:42.654 --> 0:53:46.365 One of the greatest joys of my life, and the 0:53:46.364 --> 0:53:50.846 greatest privileges of my life is to have had the 0:53:50.846 --> 0:53:54.246 opportunity to pay it forward, because when you know what 0:53:54.246 --> 0:53:58.114 it is, which I discovered really early in my career, 0:53:58.915 --> 0:54:00.056 The power 0:54:00.815 --> 0:54:04.415 That comes when somebody believes in you, at a time 0:54:04.415 --> 0:54:07.895 when you don't yet necessarily believe in yourself, in fact 0:54:07.895 --> 0:54:10.776 you might feel quite the opposite, but when you know 0:54:10.776 --> 0:54:13.776 what it is to have somebody believe in you and 0:54:13.776 --> 0:54:17.016 then experience that joy and want to prove to them 0:54:17.016 --> 0:54:19.236 that that was well placed belief. 0:54:20.506 --> 0:54:22.746 To then find yourself in a position to be able 0:54:22.746 --> 0:54:27.424 to pass that joy onto other young women, cause it's 0:54:27.424 --> 0:54:29.634 mostly been women that I've worked with over the years, 0:54:29.705 --> 0:54:32.155 there's been a few, few men along the way, and 0:54:32.154 --> 0:54:35.874 I've had great experiences with male colleagues and male bosses. 0:54:36.194 --> 0:54:39.675 You know, what happened at Channel Nine has not changed 0:54:39.674 --> 0:54:43.114 my view of the great men who are out there. 0:54:44.065 --> 0:54:46.345 And early in my career, it was mostly men that 0:54:46.346 --> 0:54:50.555 were giving me the opportunities. But to see what you 0:54:50.556 --> 0:54:55.996 have done with this media company, which I remember when 0:54:55.996 --> 0:54:59.556 you started this on your lounge room floor, and to 0:54:59.556 --> 0:55:04.596 see you encouraging young women in a way that has 0:55:04.596 --> 0:55:11.154 built so many careers, that's the power of positive female energy. 0:55:11.694 --> 0:55:15.364 And, you know, every time I see you push another 0:55:15.746 --> 0:55:18.725 little bird out of the nest and encourage it to fly, 0:55:19.266 --> 0:55:21.465 I take great joy out of that. 0:55:21.625 --> 0:55:22.725 I learnt from the best. 0:55:24.276 --> 0:55:25.276 Thank you so much. 0:55:28.776 --> 0:55:33.175 I could have talked to Lisa for 100 years. She 0:55:33.174 --> 0:55:36.975 does love a good conversation. She is a great person 0:55:36.975 --> 0:55:40.815 to talk to about anything. And in fact, when we 0:55:40.815 --> 0:55:44.655 left the studio, we went and sat outside in the 0:55:44.654 --> 0:55:46.975 kitchen area at Mamma Mia, and no one else is 0:55:46.975 --> 0:55:50.455 in the office at the moment. And as the sun 0:55:50.455 --> 0:55:54.135 went down, we talked for another hour, at least. And 0:55:54.134 --> 0:55:56.694 in the end, I had to say, babe, I've got 0:55:56.694 --> 0:55:57.435 to go home. 0:55:58.036 --> 0:56:02.326 There is just so much to talk about. And there 0:56:02.326 --> 0:56:04.846 were lots of things that we didn't even touch in 0:56:04.846 --> 0:56:07.395 these two episodes that you will read about in the book, 0:56:07.565 --> 0:56:12.515 about her magazine career, about her role as a mother, 0:56:12.924 --> 0:56:17.286 about having three incredible children, about her marriage. Oh, we 0:56:17.286 --> 0:56:20.806 could've done a whole other episode just talking about her 0:56:20.806 --> 0:56:24.935 marriage to Peter Fitzsimons. You know, when I interviewed Pete 0:56:24.935 --> 0:56:26.944 on this podcast a few years ago, 0:56:27.375 --> 0:56:29.565 I asked him about his marriage to Lisa, because I 0:56:29.565 --> 0:56:32.806 knew everybody would be curious about that, and he said 0:56:32.806 --> 0:56:37.335 something which ended up making national news. He said, we 0:56:37.335 --> 0:56:42.526 have 50 blissful days, 300 pretty good days, and 15 shockers. 0:56:42.815 --> 0:56:45.095 And I wanted to ask her what those shockers were like. 0:56:45.455 --> 0:56:48.455 She talks about her marriage and being married to the 0:56:48.455 --> 0:56:49.675 same man for 0:56:50.236 --> 0:56:53.256 Oh, what would it be now? Close to 30 years 0:56:53.556 --> 0:56:57.395 in the book. It is a tour de force, this book, honestly, 0:56:57.556 --> 0:56:59.996 I don't know, it spans so much. It's about magazines, 0:57:00.076 --> 0:57:03.256 it's about women, it's about generations of women in Australia. 0:57:03.475 --> 0:57:05.395 It is an epic, epic book. 0:57:06.165 --> 0:57:08.364 It wasn't meant to be like this by Lisa Wilkinson, 0:57:08.424 --> 0:57:11.806 it's published by HarperCollins and is available for pre-order now 0:57:11.806 --> 0:57:14.346 from Booktopia. We'll put a link in the show notes. 0:57:14.846 --> 0:57:17.526 The assistant producer of No Filter is Lucy Neville, the 0:57:17.526 --> 0:57:21.405 executive producer is Eliza Ratliff. I'm Mia Friedman and I'll 0:57:21.405 --> 0:57:22.845 see you on Mamma Mia. 0:57:23.705 --> 0:57:25.836 And if you're after something else to listen to, you 0:57:25.836 --> 0:57:28.836 might wanna listen to our new podcast. It's been topping 0:57:28.836 --> 0:57:32.435 the charts. It's been very, very well received. Everyone's talking 0:57:32.435 --> 0:57:34.365 about it. It's called What Are You Wearing, and it 0:57:34.365 --> 0:57:37.475 is the first podcast for your wardrobe. You can find 0:57:37.475 --> 0:57:39.016 it wherever you get your podcasts.