1 00:00:15,196 --> 00:00:17,475 Speaker 1: From Mamma Mia, I'm Mia Friedman, and you're listening to 2 00:00:17,475 --> 00:00:20,076 Speaker 1: No Filter, a podcast where people from all walks of 3 00:00:20,076 --> 00:00:23,996 Speaker 1: life tell their stories very candidly and aren't afraid to 4 00:00:23,996 --> 00:00:28,395 Speaker 1: be vulnerable. And on the subject of candid and vulnerable, 5 00:00:28,715 --> 00:00:31,736 Speaker 1: this is part two of my interview with the iconic, 6 00:00:31,996 --> 00:00:35,035 Speaker 1: Lisa Wilkinson. And if you haven't listened to part one, 7 00:00:35,275 --> 00:00:38,775 Speaker 1: I'd suggest scrolling back through your feed and doing that now. 8 00:00:39,076 --> 00:00:40,354 Speaker 1: You will not want to miss that. 9 00:00:41,006 --> 00:00:45,206 Speaker 1: The second half of the story starts at the Logie's 10 00:00:45,604 --> 00:00:49,476 Speaker 1: and comes crashing down in a tuna aisle of a supermarket. 11 00:00:49,805 --> 00:00:53,874 Speaker 1: Mainly because this is about Lisa's time on breakfast TV, 12 00:00:54,245 --> 00:00:59,206 Speaker 1: specifically her 10 years at the Today Show, alongside Karl Stefanovic. 13 00:01:00,026 --> 00:01:02,916 Speaker 1: And I'm not gonna lie, it gets pretty raw. Again, 14 00:01:02,995 --> 00:01:06,756 Speaker 1: there was stuff in here that I never knew. Lisa 15 00:01:06,756 --> 00:01:11,335 Speaker 1: and Carl had incredible chemistry on air, but off air? Well, 16 00:01:11,676 --> 00:01:13,555 Speaker 1: that's where things start getting a little 17 00:01:13,555 --> 00:01:14,265 Speaker 1: murky. 18 00:01:14,475 --> 00:01:16,545 Speaker 2: I couldn't talk to him for 2 hours, apart from 19 00:01:16,545 --> 00:01:19,716 Speaker 2: what was scripted. I just couldn't talk to him. For 20 00:01:19,716 --> 00:01:23,636 Speaker 2: the first time in over a decade, I didn't trust 21 00:01:23,636 --> 00:01:25,416 Speaker 2: myself that I was gonna play nice. 22 00:01:26,276 --> 00:01:28,795 Speaker 1: Here's part two of my chat with Lisa. 23 00:01:30,325 --> 00:01:35,106 Speaker 1: The way women's magazine editors are depicted often in the 24 00:01:35,526 --> 00:01:40,835 Speaker 1: male mainstream media, whether it's in Devil Wears Prada or newspapers, 25 00:01:41,276 --> 00:01:46,846 Speaker 1: is often dumb, just high heels, frivolous. It's a really 26 00:01:46,846 --> 00:01:52,365 Speaker 1: sexist stereotype, I think. When you went into television, and 27 00:01:52,365 --> 00:01:57,566 Speaker 1: particularly into news television, so when you started hosting Weekend Sunrise, 28 00:01:57,846 --> 00:01:59,986 Speaker 1: and filling in on weekday sunrise, 29 00:02:01,176 --> 00:02:06,486 Speaker 1: Was there a sense of, oh, she's the, the Cleo lass, 30 00:02:06,695 --> 00:02:09,315 Speaker 1: she doesn't know the serious business, cause not many people 31 00:02:09,496 --> 00:02:13,934 Speaker 1: also change careers or change mediums at that stage in 32 00:02:13,935 --> 00:02:15,715 Speaker 1: their life. You weren't 25. 33 00:02:17,066 --> 00:02:17,895 Speaker 1: No reception did you get? 34 00:02:17,976 --> 00:02:21,336 Speaker 2: Well, I was never planning on going into television, ever. 35 00:02:21,575 --> 00:02:23,875 Speaker 2: I used to look at television and think, 36 00:02:24,566 --> 00:02:26,524 Speaker 2: You know, there's some women on television I really like, 37 00:02:26,605 --> 00:02:30,845 Speaker 2: but my God, what an awful medium to be working in. 38 00:02:31,044 --> 00:02:33,085 Speaker 2: Why did you think that? Well, because it was sexist 39 00:02:33,085 --> 00:02:35,964 Speaker 2: for a start, I mean, you'd never see a woman 40 00:02:35,965 --> 00:02:40,726 Speaker 2: hosting any kind of current affairs program. Very few women 41 00:02:40,726 --> 00:02:44,926 Speaker 2: were taken seriously as, as political journalists, whereas now that's 42 00:02:44,925 --> 00:02:45,486 Speaker 2: the norm. 43 00:02:45,756 --> 00:02:49,085 Speaker 1: And women were sort of like the decoration, 44 00:02:49,196 --> 00:02:49,286 Speaker 2: yeah, 45 00:02:49,405 --> 00:02:52,265 Speaker 1: decoration, who the bauble that sits on the side and, 46 00:02:52,895 --> 00:02:56,566 Speaker 1: Ironically, as Ginger Rogers said, does everything that Fred Astaire does, 47 00:02:56,615 --> 00:02:59,405 Speaker 1: but backwards in heels, while the man does all the 48 00:02:59,405 --> 00:03:02,575 Speaker 1: serious stuff. And even when it was, you know, Kochie 49 00:03:02,575 --> 00:03:05,336 Speaker 1: and Mel, even though Mel is an extraordinary journalist and 50 00:03:05,335 --> 00:03:07,736 Speaker 1: that wasn't the reality of the situation, it was often. 51 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,331 Speaker 1: Depicted like that, or Steve Liebman and Tracey Grimshaw on 52 00:03:12,361 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: the Today Show, back in the 90s. Did you have 53 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:16,961 Speaker 1: a lot to prove? 54 00:03:17,161 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: I am the archetypal frog that got put in a 55 00:03:21,119 --> 00:03:23,021 Speaker 2: saucepan of cold water. 56 00:03:24,096 --> 00:03:28,105 Speaker 2: And then slowly came to the boil is how I 57 00:03:28,105 --> 00:03:31,946 Speaker 2: see my career in television because I went on maternity 58 00:03:31,946 --> 00:03:38,045 Speaker 2: leave with my second child, Louis, in 1995. I'd had 59 00:03:38,045 --> 00:03:42,646 Speaker 2: 10 incredible years at Clio and I said, 60 00:03:43,265 --> 00:03:46,905 Speaker 2: I'm done. I think I'm done and I want you 61 00:03:46,905 --> 00:03:48,904 Speaker 2: to put a new editor in. They didn't want to 62 00:03:48,905 --> 00:03:51,105 Speaker 2: put a new editor in. They said, we'll just hold 63 00:03:51,105 --> 00:03:54,035 Speaker 2: the job for you for 12 months. And I said, 64 00:03:54,506 --> 00:03:58,464 Speaker 2: I'm a mum, I've got 2 kids. I feel like 65 00:03:58,465 --> 00:04:01,385 Speaker 2: I need to do something new. Right now, I wanna 66 00:04:01,385 --> 00:04:04,866 Speaker 2: be a mum. I just, I've worked so hard for 67 00:04:04,866 --> 00:04:08,825 Speaker 2: so long, and I know I'm smart at what I do. 68 00:04:08,976 --> 00:04:09,105 Speaker 1: How 69 00:04:09,105 --> 00:04:10,586 Speaker 1: old were you when you had Louis? 70 00:04:11,135 --> 00:04:13,896 Speaker 1: Mid-30s. You wanted a rest, you'd been going, not a rest, 71 00:04:13,976 --> 00:04:17,525 Speaker 1: it's not a rest having two kids at home, but 72 00:04:17,525 --> 00:04:19,976 Speaker 1: you had been working nonstop since you were 21 and 73 00:04:19,976 --> 00:04:21,435 Speaker 1: answered that Girl Friday ad. 74 00:04:22,324 --> 00:04:25,005 Speaker 1: So I get that you had the break. What did 75 00:04:25,005 --> 00:04:29,924 Speaker 1: you find most, like, surprising and difficult to adjust to 76 00:04:29,924 --> 00:04:32,025 Speaker 1: when you, cause when you went to the Today Show 77 00:04:32,525 --> 00:04:36,565 Speaker 1: and hosted with Carl, you were the, what, 4th co-host 78 00:04:36,565 --> 00:04:39,315 Speaker 1: in 4 years or something? Less? 79 00:04:39,484 --> 00:04:41,464 Speaker 2: Somebody asked me this the other day. So there was, 80 00:04:41,604 --> 00:04:44,204 Speaker 2: he started with Tracy started with Tracy, and then he 81 00:04:44,204 --> 00:04:44,634 Speaker 2: had 82 00:04:44,634 --> 00:04:47,073 Speaker 1: Jess Rowe, then Sarah Murdoch. 83 00:04:47,164 --> 00:04:48,904 Speaker 2: Sarah Murdoch, and then Kelly Connolly. 84 00:04:49,375 --> 00:04:50,124 Speaker 1: Kelly, and then 85 00:04:50,125 --> 00:04:50,965 Speaker 2: you, and then me. 86 00:04:51,534 --> 00:04:54,505 Speaker 1: And so, first of all, when was the first time 87 00:04:54,505 --> 00:04:56,186 Speaker 1: you met? You tell a story in the book about 88 00:04:56,186 --> 00:04:58,466 Speaker 1: meeting at the Logies, when there was all this speculation 89 00:04:58,466 --> 00:05:00,986 Speaker 1: in the newspaper about you were gonna jump from sunrise 90 00:05:00,986 --> 00:05:04,544 Speaker 1: to We in Sunrise to the Today Show. What was 91 00:05:04,545 --> 00:05:06,215 Speaker 1: that meeting like? Basically, 92 00:05:06,224 --> 00:05:09,746 Speaker 2: what had happened, I mean, right throughout my career, when 93 00:05:09,746 --> 00:05:14,465 Speaker 2: I went from Fairfax to ACP, when I went from 94 00:05:14,466 --> 00:05:17,706 Speaker 2: Channel 7 to Channel 9, and when I went from 95 00:05:17,706 --> 00:05:19,335 Speaker 2: Channel 9 to Channel 10, 96 00:05:20,436 --> 00:05:24,575 Speaker 2: I've always moved because an offer has come along and 97 00:05:24,836 --> 00:05:28,594 Speaker 2: I've always agonized over it because every single job I've 98 00:05:28,594 --> 00:05:31,396 Speaker 2: ever had, even right back to at the age of 99 00:05:31,396 --> 00:05:35,594 Speaker 2: 15 working at Wrench's shoe store in Campbelltown on Thursday 100 00:05:35,594 --> 00:05:39,595 Speaker 2: nights and Saturday mornings, I've loved every job I've ever had. 101 00:05:39,716 --> 00:05:44,075 Speaker 2: I've always approached work with enormous gratitude. 102 00:05:44,686 --> 00:05:47,755 Speaker 2: And I've made the most of every single day and 103 00:05:47,755 --> 00:05:49,836 Speaker 2: every single job that I've had, and I've never had 104 00:05:49,836 --> 00:05:53,194 Speaker 2: an eye to something else. It's always been because something 105 00:05:53,195 --> 00:05:56,276 Speaker 2: else has come along, and I've thought, I wonder if 106 00:05:56,276 --> 00:05:57,176 Speaker 2: I'm done here. 107 00:05:57,556 --> 00:05:59,395 Speaker 1: And Eddie McGuire came and tapped you on the shoulder. 108 00:05:59,515 --> 00:06:01,556 Speaker 1: He was CEO at the time. Well, Eddie 109 00:06:01,556 --> 00:06:06,474 Speaker 2: approached me via, it's all explained in the book of 110 00:06:06,474 --> 00:06:07,594 Speaker 2: how it all happened. 111 00:06:08,116 --> 00:06:11,474 Speaker 2: I'd known Eddie from my Cleo days because when I 112 00:06:11,474 --> 00:06:14,956 Speaker 2: took out the centerfold, I thought, you know, if you're 113 00:06:14,956 --> 00:06:18,755 Speaker 2: gonna take away 12 naked guys with one hand, you've 114 00:06:18,755 --> 00:06:22,915 Speaker 2: gotta give Australian women something back. And not long after 115 00:06:22,914 --> 00:06:25,135 Speaker 2: I got rid of the centerfold, I thought, I know, 116 00:06:25,315 --> 00:06:28,635 Speaker 2: I'll start Australia's list of 50 most eligible bachelors. And 117 00:06:28,635 --> 00:06:28,906 Speaker 2: Eddie 118 00:06:28,906 --> 00:06:29,586 Speaker 1: was one of them, 119 00:06:30,075 --> 00:06:33,015 Speaker 2: Eddie was desperate to be on that list, let's be honest, 120 00:06:33,116 --> 00:06:35,116 Speaker 2: and a few of his mates were on the list 121 00:06:35,116 --> 00:06:35,836 Speaker 2: from Melbourne. 122 00:06:36,414 --> 00:06:39,466 Speaker 2: And he came along a couple of years in a row, 123 00:06:39,505 --> 00:06:41,785 Speaker 2: and he kept giving me his business card, and he 124 00:06:41,784 --> 00:06:44,385 Speaker 2: was incredibly charming, and he was single, and he was 125 00:06:44,385 --> 00:06:47,955 Speaker 2: very successful, and I thought, I'll give this poor guy 126 00:06:47,956 --> 00:06:50,255 Speaker 2: a break. And then, you know, 127 00:06:50,306 --> 00:06:52,505 Speaker 1: I didn't know that, so all those years later, he 128 00:06:52,505 --> 00:06:54,265 Speaker 1: came and approached you 129 00:06:54,265 --> 00:06:59,164 Speaker 2: for this job. At that point, I'd been asked by 130 00:06:59,385 --> 00:07:01,065 Speaker 2: the infamous Mark Llewellyn. 131 00:07:01,676 --> 00:07:07,135 Speaker 2: On the very day that the whole boning incident broke, 132 00:07:07,594 --> 00:07:10,035 Speaker 2: I was at lunch with Mark Llewellyn, who was the 133 00:07:10,035 --> 00:07:12,956 Speaker 2: head of news and current affairs at Nine, and I'd 134 00:07:12,956 --> 00:07:15,355 Speaker 2: known him since I was 19, 0 no, it must 135 00:07:15,355 --> 00:07:18,126 Speaker 2: have been 21, because he was a mate of my 136 00:07:18,126 --> 00:07:22,466 Speaker 2: then boyfriend's who worked at the ABC and we ran 137 00:07:22,466 --> 00:07:24,135 Speaker 2: into each other at a friend's wedding. 138 00:07:24,725 --> 00:07:27,405 Speaker 2: At a time when I was hosting Weekend Sunrise, so 139 00:07:27,406 --> 00:07:29,646 Speaker 2: he was trying to poach you. Well, no, we were 140 00:07:29,646 --> 00:07:32,486 Speaker 2: just getting together for lunch, because when we saw each 141 00:07:32,486 --> 00:07:34,605 Speaker 2: other at this wedding, he said, oh let's get together, 142 00:07:34,646 --> 00:07:37,646 Speaker 2: we've got so many stories to share, and he'd just 143 00:07:37,646 --> 00:07:41,445 Speaker 2: come back from, basically being the guy on the ground 144 00:07:41,445 --> 00:07:45,165 Speaker 2: for both the Today Show and The Current Affair at 145 00:07:45,165 --> 00:07:48,216 Speaker 2: the mining disaster in Beaconsfield in Tasmania. 146 00:07:48,936 --> 00:07:51,376 Speaker 2: And we sat down to have lunch and he was 147 00:07:51,376 --> 00:07:55,095 Speaker 2: distracted throughout the entire lunch cos he said, I've got 148 00:07:55,095 --> 00:07:58,475 Speaker 2: a really important phone call coming through. That was, which 149 00:07:58,475 --> 00:08:02,736 Speaker 2: was the infamous shit sandwich story. You've gotta read the 150 00:08:02,736 --> 00:08:03,665 Speaker 2: book to understand all this so 151 00:08:05,595 --> 00:08:09,165 Speaker 1: so there's so delicious detail. The first time you met Kyle, 152 00:08:09,496 --> 00:08:09,776 Speaker 1: what was 153 00:08:09,776 --> 00:08:10,336 Speaker 1: it like? 154 00:08:11,466 --> 00:08:16,986 Speaker 2: Well, I had been offered the Morning Show, which was 155 00:08:16,986 --> 00:08:20,265 Speaker 2: just about to start on Channel 7 after Sunrise because 156 00:08:20,265 --> 00:08:23,944 Speaker 2: Sunrise at that time was a runaway success. It was 157 00:08:23,945 --> 00:08:26,045 Speaker 2: doubling the Today Show's numbers. 158 00:08:26,595 --> 00:08:32,444 Speaker 2: And Adam Bolan, the genius behind the Sunrise brand, going back, 159 00:08:32,876 --> 00:08:35,314 Speaker 2: was starting up the morning show and he said, I 160 00:08:35,315 --> 00:08:38,595 Speaker 2: really want you to host this show and I've already 161 00:08:38,595 --> 00:08:43,075 Speaker 2: got your co-host, it's Larry Emda. And he said, I 162 00:08:43,076 --> 00:08:46,236 Speaker 2: can see it already, the Lisa and Larry show, but 163 00:08:46,236 --> 00:08:47,915 Speaker 2: we're gonna call it the morning show, but everybody will 164 00:08:47,915 --> 00:08:51,555 Speaker 2: knows Lisa and Larry because obviously Mel and Kochie were 165 00:08:52,105 --> 00:08:55,895 Speaker 2: a single entity in Australia's mind at that stage. 166 00:08:56,566 --> 00:08:57,105 Speaker 2: And 167 00:08:57,955 --> 00:08:58,975 Speaker 2: I remembered thinking, 168 00:09:00,056 --> 00:09:03,616 Speaker 2: I know Larry Emdda's a journalist, but he was best 169 00:09:03,616 --> 00:09:07,826 Speaker 2: known as a quiz show guy at that point. And 170 00:09:07,936 --> 00:09:09,205 Speaker 2: Adam looked at me and he said, I know what 171 00:09:09,205 --> 00:09:10,975 Speaker 2: you're thinking, he's a quiz show guy, but he's not, 172 00:09:11,056 --> 00:09:15,175 Speaker 2: and I know you two will be fantastic together, but 173 00:09:15,176 --> 00:09:17,215 Speaker 2: that happened at the same time as I was offered 174 00:09:17,215 --> 00:09:20,376 Speaker 2: the Today Show, and no one knew that I'd been 175 00:09:20,376 --> 00:09:24,176 Speaker 2: approached by Channel Nine. It all happened very quickly. But 176 00:09:24,176 --> 00:09:25,455 Speaker 2: on the day, 177 00:09:26,236 --> 00:09:30,155 Speaker 2: That someone tried to obviously force my hand, it was 178 00:09:30,155 --> 00:09:31,535 Speaker 2: leaked to the papers. 179 00:09:32,415 --> 00:09:36,935 Speaker 2: Now, the Today Show co-hosting role at that point was 180 00:09:36,936 --> 00:09:40,334 Speaker 2: the most talked about job on Australian television, and it 181 00:09:40,335 --> 00:09:42,715 Speaker 2: was a bit of a poisoned chalice because Carl had 182 00:09:42,725 --> 00:09:47,175 Speaker 2: had so many women he'd sat next to. Sunrise had 183 00:09:47,176 --> 00:09:48,655 Speaker 2: double the numbers. 184 00:09:49,076 --> 00:09:49,946 Speaker 2: And 185 00:09:50,405 --> 00:09:52,366 Speaker 1: it was a bit of a hospital pass in a way, 186 00:09:52,446 --> 00:09:54,946 Speaker 1: wasn't it? Well, yeah, I mean, no, that sounds bad, 187 00:09:55,006 --> 00:09:59,285 Speaker 1: but it was like daunting because there'd been so many 188 00:09:59,285 --> 00:10:02,645 Speaker 1: people through that chair, they hadn't confirmed that it was 189 00:10:02,645 --> 00:10:05,045 Speaker 1: gonna be anybody, so it was like, who's it gonna be? 190 00:10:05,196 --> 00:10:06,006 Speaker 2: And also the media. 191 00:10:06,410 --> 00:10:10,410 Speaker 2: hated the Today Show at that stage. Sunrise was the 192 00:10:10,410 --> 00:10:13,571 Speaker 2: hottest show on television. It was. But the problem was 193 00:10:13,571 --> 00:10:16,891 Speaker 2: having hosted Weekend Sunrise and having filled in for Mel 194 00:10:16,891 --> 00:10:20,131 Speaker 2: a couple of times, you had the bug. Breakfast TV 195 00:10:20,131 --> 00:10:23,090 Speaker 2: is intoxicating because you are. 196 00:10:24,285 --> 00:10:27,035 Speaker 2: In people's lounge rooms in the morning, you're helping them 197 00:10:27,035 --> 00:10:31,415 Speaker 2: wake up at a time in the day when everyone's unshowered, 198 00:10:31,736 --> 00:10:35,175 Speaker 2: everyone's feeling a bit raw, you know, parents are trying 199 00:10:35,176 --> 00:10:39,415 Speaker 2: to find missing socks and make school lunches and if 200 00:10:39,415 --> 00:10:43,196 Speaker 2: you can be a bright, informed presence in their lives, 201 00:10:43,655 --> 00:10:47,095 Speaker 2: I mean, that's such an extraordinary privilege to be welcomed 202 00:10:47,095 --> 00:10:50,016 Speaker 2: into people's homes and for them to trust you. 203 00:10:50,645 --> 00:10:55,376 Speaker 2: And I understood what that was at sunrise, but I 204 00:10:55,376 --> 00:10:59,996 Speaker 2: also understood that Mel had a job for life. The 205 00:10:59,996 --> 00:11:06,176 Speaker 2: obvious successor, yeah, the obvious successor was Natalie Barr. Um, 206 00:11:07,056 --> 00:11:12,136 Speaker 2: if I was really, really, really lucky when I was 112, 207 00:11:12,975 --> 00:11:13,676 Speaker 2: that 208 00:11:13,676 --> 00:11:14,486 Speaker 2: job could be mine. 209 00:11:14,725 --> 00:11:16,295 Speaker 1: You might be in with a chance. And 210 00:11:16,295 --> 00:11:16,496 Speaker 2: I 211 00:11:16,496 --> 00:11:18,316 Speaker 2: just thought, I know that. 212 00:11:18,655 --> 00:11:21,126 Speaker 2: That job looks like a poisoned chalice at the moment. 213 00:11:22,426 --> 00:11:27,446 Speaker 2: But I've got the bug and I know everybody's kind 214 00:11:27,446 --> 00:11:29,145 Speaker 2: of having a bit of a go at this guy 215 00:11:29,145 --> 00:11:31,946 Speaker 2: Karl Stefanovic, but every so often when I tune in 216 00:11:31,946 --> 00:11:33,686 Speaker 2: I think he's kind of funny. 217 00:11:34,436 --> 00:11:36,636 Speaker 2: And a few times I'd seen him out on the 218 00:11:36,636 --> 00:11:39,996 Speaker 2: road at breaking stories and I thought he's actually quite 219 00:11:39,996 --> 00:11:42,436 Speaker 2: a good journo. He's very good at that. So when 220 00:11:42,436 --> 00:11:45,996 Speaker 2: I was offered I was unsure, but if there's one 221 00:11:45,996 --> 00:11:49,196 Speaker 2: day in the year when you don't want that story 222 00:11:49,196 --> 00:11:52,355 Speaker 2: on the front page of the papers, it's probably the 223 00:11:52,355 --> 00:11:56,295 Speaker 2: day of the Logies and that story broke on the day, 224 00:11:56,725 --> 00:11:59,975 Speaker 2: That I had landed in Melbourne as a guest of 225 00:11:59,975 --> 00:12:04,665 Speaker 2: Channel 7 to sit on the Sunrise table and front 226 00:12:04,665 --> 00:12:05,545 Speaker 2: page of many 227 00:12:05,545 --> 00:12:06,136 Speaker 2: newspapers. 228 00:12:06,285 --> 00:12:07,535 Speaker 1: Lisa goes to Channel 9. Well, 229 00:12:07,576 --> 00:12:10,595 Speaker 2: it was, she's probably going to go, 230 00:12:10,665 --> 00:12:12,326 Speaker 1: right, and you hadn't decided yet. 231 00:12:12,775 --> 00:12:15,775 Speaker 2: I definitely hadn't decided. The, the offer had only been 232 00:12:15,775 --> 00:12:19,756 Speaker 2: made a few days before, and I was desperate that 233 00:12:19,756 --> 00:12:22,136 Speaker 2: no-one knew about it because I didn't, I didn't want 234 00:12:22,136 --> 00:12:23,556 Speaker 2: the pressure of deciding. 235 00:12:24,095 --> 00:12:24,756 Speaker 2: Publicly, 236 00:12:24,895 --> 00:12:26,465 Speaker 1: who introduced you to Kyle that night? 237 00:12:26,936 --> 00:12:29,345 Speaker 2: Well, I went to the loo, and as you may know, 238 00:12:29,415 --> 00:12:31,695 Speaker 2: when you go to the loo at the Logies, you 239 00:12:31,696 --> 00:12:34,616 Speaker 2: have to do it in about 13 seconds flat because 240 00:12:34,616 --> 00:12:38,025 Speaker 2: it's a live broadcast. Yeah, and the problem with going 241 00:12:38,025 --> 00:12:40,766 Speaker 2: to the loo at the Logies, particularly the women's loo, 242 00:12:40,975 --> 00:12:43,886 Speaker 2: is everybody's got zippers and buttons and chill 243 00:12:43,886 --> 00:12:44,516 Speaker 2: and 244 00:12:45,215 --> 00:12:47,055 Speaker 2: you know, there's stuff going on in the toilets that, 245 00:12:47,095 --> 00:12:49,855 Speaker 2: you know, means that there's a very long queue because 246 00:12:49,855 --> 00:12:52,275 Speaker 2: a lot of women are catching up, haven't seen each other. 247 00:12:52,725 --> 00:12:54,975 Speaker 2: In a long time, and so going to the loo 248 00:12:54,975 --> 00:12:57,056 Speaker 2: takes a long time, so getting in and out in 249 00:12:57,056 --> 00:12:59,795 Speaker 2: the space of one commercial break is well nigh impossible, 250 00:12:59,816 --> 00:13:03,256 Speaker 2: and they slam the doors shut, the minute they're back 251 00:13:03,256 --> 00:13:06,415 Speaker 2: from the ad break, and I got caught, and I 252 00:13:06,415 --> 00:13:09,016 Speaker 2: sort of looked around and there's always a bar right 253 00:13:09,016 --> 00:13:10,094 Speaker 2: outside the room. 254 00:13:11,746 --> 00:13:14,506 Speaker 2: Back in the days when it was at Crown, and 255 00:13:14,506 --> 00:13:17,855 Speaker 2: I saw Larry Emer standing at the bar, and Larry 256 00:13:17,855 --> 00:13:20,436 Speaker 2: and I had not had any conversation about the fact 257 00:13:20,436 --> 00:13:23,266 Speaker 2: that I'd been offered the morning show, so it was 258 00:13:23,266 --> 00:13:26,085 Speaker 2: news to them as well wow that I was not, 259 00:13:27,076 --> 00:13:29,496 Speaker 2: Necessarily going to go to the morning show, and I 260 00:13:29,496 --> 00:13:30,636 Speaker 2: saw Larry and I thought, 261 00:13:31,395 --> 00:13:34,835 Speaker 2: I'm just gonna have to face this front on, and 262 00:13:34,835 --> 00:13:37,915 Speaker 2: I waved, and he went, oh hi, how are you? 263 00:13:37,955 --> 00:13:41,295 Speaker 2: and he sort of walked over towards me, and um 264 00:13:41,386 --> 00:13:43,866 Speaker 2: he said it's great to see you, how weird is this? 265 00:13:44,236 --> 00:13:46,275 Speaker 2: And I said, yeah, I know, look, I'd love to 266 00:13:46,275 --> 00:13:48,155 Speaker 2: chat to you about it, but I really can't. And 267 00:13:48,155 --> 00:13:50,116 Speaker 2: he said, that's OK, I think there's probably somebody else 268 00:13:50,116 --> 00:13:52,475 Speaker 2: you'd like to chat to. And he sort of grabbed 269 00:13:52,475 --> 00:13:54,555 Speaker 2: the shoulder of the guy standing behind him at the 270 00:13:54,556 --> 00:13:56,475 Speaker 2: bar and said, Lisa Wilkinson, I'd like you to meet 271 00:13:56,475 --> 00:13:57,496 Speaker 2: Karl Stefanovic. 272 00:13:58,576 --> 00:14:01,705 Speaker 2: And I thought, oh my God, this just isn't gonna 273 00:14:01,705 --> 00:14:04,945 Speaker 2: get any worse than this, like, so what did Karl 274 00:14:04,946 --> 00:14:05,926 Speaker 2: say awkward. 275 00:14:07,236 --> 00:14:12,556 Speaker 2: We basically started making each other laugh from the opening sentence. 276 00:14:13,345 --> 00:14:17,525 Speaker 2: And we got through yet another commercial break and stayed talking, 277 00:14:17,866 --> 00:14:21,436 Speaker 2: because I think we both knew that this was now. 278 00:14:22,256 --> 00:14:23,155 Speaker 2: An audition, 279 00:14:23,455 --> 00:14:24,355 Speaker 1: a chemistry test, 280 00:14:24,376 --> 00:14:26,645 Speaker 2: for both of us. And 281 00:14:27,415 --> 00:14:30,855 Speaker 2: We just knew that we got on really well. We 282 00:14:30,855 --> 00:14:34,176 Speaker 2: made each other laugh, there was no pregnant pause in 283 00:14:34,176 --> 00:14:35,256 Speaker 2: the conversation. 284 00:14:36,016 --> 00:14:38,835 Speaker 2: And I think Larry Emda just sort of stood back 285 00:14:38,835 --> 00:14:41,926 Speaker 2: and folded his arms feeling like a very proud old builder. 286 00:14:43,605 --> 00:14:47,035 Speaker 1: Well, the rest is history. You became the host. Today 287 00:14:47,035 --> 00:14:50,775 Speaker 1: dominated the ratings, you and Carl were a formidable team. 288 00:14:52,465 --> 00:14:56,366 Speaker 1: A lot has been speculated on in terms of your 289 00:14:56,366 --> 00:15:00,266 Speaker 1: off-air friendship and what went on, you've written about it 290 00:15:00,266 --> 00:15:01,605 Speaker 1: extensively in the book. 291 00:15:02,655 --> 00:15:07,116 Speaker 1: How would you characterize your off-air relationship compared to your 292 00:15:07,116 --> 00:15:08,455 Speaker 1: on-air relationship? 293 00:15:08,715 --> 00:15:10,056 Speaker 2: On-air was pretty magical. 294 00:15:11,056 --> 00:15:14,085 Speaker 2: And it was an on-air relationship that 295 00:15:15,105 --> 00:15:17,936 Speaker 2: Was kind of so good we never talked about it, 296 00:15:18,585 --> 00:15:20,545 Speaker 2: because it's one of those things where you think, if 297 00:15:20,545 --> 00:15:23,066 Speaker 2: you start to question it or examine it, maybe some 298 00:15:23,066 --> 00:15:26,215 Speaker 2: of the magic would go, in some ways Carl and 299 00:15:26,215 --> 00:15:29,225 Speaker 2: I were quite different, and that was also part of 300 00:15:29,225 --> 00:15:29,986 Speaker 2: the magic. 301 00:15:30,785 --> 00:15:33,316 Speaker 2: And we could definitely make each other laugh, we could 302 00:15:33,316 --> 00:15:35,016 Speaker 2: definitely challenge each other. 303 00:15:35,975 --> 00:15:40,236 Speaker 2: But it was actually a really good on-air relationship. 304 00:15:41,225 --> 00:15:44,345 Speaker 2: We almost never saw each other off-air. 305 00:15:45,085 --> 00:15:48,486 Speaker 2: And there were times when I wondered why that was, 306 00:15:48,645 --> 00:15:50,645 Speaker 2: because I did tend to reach out a lot more 307 00:15:50,645 --> 00:15:54,806 Speaker 2: than Carl ever reached out. But, you know, the magic 308 00:15:54,806 --> 00:15:58,205 Speaker 2: continued on air, and we went from a show that 309 00:15:58,205 --> 00:16:03,405 Speaker 2: had half the ratings of Sunrise to building, like, we 310 00:16:03,405 --> 00:16:06,886 Speaker 2: had our first win within 12 months of us being together, which, 311 00:16:06,955 --> 00:16:09,025 Speaker 2: you know, Carl and I went out and celebrated. 312 00:16:09,436 --> 00:16:13,176 Speaker 2: With his wife and my husband, because we couldn't believe 313 00:16:13,176 --> 00:16:15,756 Speaker 2: that in the space of just 12 months, we'd managed 314 00:16:15,756 --> 00:16:18,275 Speaker 2: to do that, and we both looked at each other 315 00:16:18,275 --> 00:16:21,876 Speaker 2: that night and said, whatever happens from here, we can 316 00:16:21,876 --> 00:16:25,516 Speaker 2: always say that once upon a time, we beat sunrise. 317 00:16:26,155 --> 00:16:28,155 Speaker 2: So it was a great night of celebration. 318 00:16:29,085 --> 00:16:32,845 Speaker 2: But, um, as I say in the book, for a 319 00:16:32,845 --> 00:16:35,926 Speaker 2: long time Carl wanted to get off breakfast TV. He 320 00:16:35,926 --> 00:16:37,426 Speaker 2: wanted to do prime time. 321 00:16:37,965 --> 00:16:39,455 Speaker 1: Um, did you ever talk about that? 322 00:16:39,965 --> 00:16:41,616 Speaker 2: No, I never found out about 323 00:16:41,616 --> 00:16:45,605 Speaker 1: that. Were there parameters in your, like, I imagine it's 324 00:16:45,605 --> 00:16:48,936 Speaker 1: very intimate, you're with each other from 5:30 in the 325 00:16:48,936 --> 00:16:51,725 Speaker 1: morning or whatever it is, you turn up half asleep, 326 00:16:52,205 --> 00:16:54,886 Speaker 1: see each other in your most difficult times, you're covering 327 00:16:54,886 --> 00:16:57,225 Speaker 1: breaking news, the highs and the lows. 328 00:16:58,605 --> 00:17:00,566 Speaker 1: I think it was 4 hours a day at one stage, 329 00:17:00,645 --> 00:17:02,946 Speaker 1: the Today Show seemed to go for hours and hours. 330 00:17:03,785 --> 00:17:04,405 Speaker 1: 5 days a week. 331 00:17:04,525 --> 00:17:08,525 Speaker 2: The day that um Julia Gillard became Prime Minister, we 332 00:17:08,525 --> 00:17:10,085 Speaker 2: were on air from 5 a.m. 333 00:17:10,555 --> 00:17:12,435 Speaker 2: Until 4 p.m. So 334 00:17:12,435 --> 00:17:14,675 Speaker 1: the amount of trust I imagine is massive, where you 335 00:17:14,675 --> 00:17:17,136 Speaker 1: have to have each other's backs and I've watched you 336 00:17:17,136 --> 00:17:17,555 Speaker 1: two on 337 00:17:17,555 --> 00:17:17,815 Speaker 1: set 338 00:17:17,815 --> 00:17:21,095 Speaker 2: and know each other's strengths and weaknesses, which is crucial 339 00:17:21,675 --> 00:17:24,276 Speaker 2: when you're sitting next to somebody, you know, particularly when 340 00:17:24,276 --> 00:17:26,575 Speaker 2: there's a camera on you, because you want to cover 341 00:17:26,575 --> 00:17:27,075 Speaker 2: for each other. 342 00:17:27,266 --> 00:17:30,016 Speaker 1: Correct. So, given that, 343 00:17:30,996 --> 00:17:34,126 Speaker 1: Things were not quite like that off-air. I mean, you 344 00:17:34,126 --> 00:17:37,486 Speaker 1: weren't fighting, but it just wasn't as close as it seemed. 345 00:17:38,916 --> 00:17:40,636 Speaker 1: What do you say to the people who go, Oh, 346 00:17:40,866 --> 00:17:43,815 Speaker 1: were you, were you faking it? Was everything on air fake? 347 00:17:44,075 --> 00:17:48,876 Speaker 2: No, because journalistically, we respected each other enormously, and our 348 00:17:48,876 --> 00:17:52,146 Speaker 2: job was not to sit there as Arthur and Martha and, 349 00:17:52,386 --> 00:17:54,916 Speaker 2: you know, mum and dad, and, you know, just pretend 350 00:17:54,916 --> 00:17:55,896 Speaker 2: that we were, 351 00:17:56,725 --> 00:18:00,945 Speaker 2: A couple, yeah, because we were there as professionals, and 352 00:18:00,945 --> 00:18:04,646 Speaker 2: you know, to be a professional journalist, you are presenting 353 00:18:04,646 --> 00:18:08,666 Speaker 2: the news, but also, yes, there's lighter segments, I mean there, 354 00:18:09,325 --> 00:18:12,866 Speaker 2: there's those videos on YouTube called the Today Show funny bits, 355 00:18:13,325 --> 00:18:16,496 Speaker 2: and I think there's something like 100 episodes of it, 356 00:18:16,886 --> 00:18:19,666 Speaker 2: and occasionally I'll go on YouTube for something, 357 00:18:20,126 --> 00:18:23,386 Speaker 2: And you know how YouTube decides what you're probably gonna 358 00:18:23,386 --> 00:18:26,046 Speaker 2: be interested in next, it's amazing how often the Today 359 00:18:26,046 --> 00:18:29,906 Speaker 2: Show funny bits come up, and in writing the book, 360 00:18:30,246 --> 00:18:33,685 Speaker 2: you know, a few times I've gone down that rabbit hole. 361 00:18:34,406 --> 00:18:38,575 Speaker 2: And I look at some of those videos and there 362 00:18:38,575 --> 00:18:42,455 Speaker 2: was so much joy in sitting next to Carl because 363 00:18:42,455 --> 00:18:46,496 Speaker 2: we could really make each other laugh, we could really 364 00:18:46,496 --> 00:18:51,595 Speaker 2: surprise each other sometimes, and there is so much about 365 00:18:51,595 --> 00:18:57,315 Speaker 2: that on-air relationship that I feel so grateful for. 366 00:18:57,906 --> 00:18:59,935 Speaker 2: There were also times, you know, when we'd be doing 367 00:18:59,935 --> 00:19:04,055 Speaker 2: political interviews, and we were doing them solo and Carl 368 00:19:04,055 --> 00:19:06,026 Speaker 2: would pass me a note and say, ask this, or 369 00:19:06,026 --> 00:19:08,095 Speaker 2: I would pass him a note and say pass this. 370 00:19:08,626 --> 00:19:10,935 Speaker 1: So, I watched you on set a lot when I 371 00:19:10,935 --> 00:19:12,945 Speaker 1: used to come on the Today Show and, you know, 372 00:19:13,095 --> 00:19:15,685 Speaker 1: off-air and on air and in between the commercial breaks 373 00:19:15,685 --> 00:19:19,626 Speaker 1: and everything, and you knew each other so well, like 374 00:19:19,626 --> 00:19:22,386 Speaker 1: watching a doubles match or something, you know, like two 375 00:19:22,386 --> 00:19:23,486 Speaker 1: people who just, 376 00:19:24,786 --> 00:19:26,445 Speaker 1: Move so effortlessly. 377 00:19:27,605 --> 00:19:29,526 Speaker 1: You write in the book about when you got married, 378 00:19:29,756 --> 00:19:31,565 Speaker 1: you know, there were some moments where you felt really 379 00:19:31,565 --> 00:19:33,526 Speaker 1: let down by him. So when you and Pete decided 380 00:19:33,526 --> 00:19:36,646 Speaker 1: to renew your vows and he RSVP late, or the 381 00:19:36,646 --> 00:19:39,116 Speaker 1: rumors were that he was having his vasectomy reversed in 382 00:19:39,116 --> 00:19:42,605 Speaker 1: LA and he didn't turn up and he didn't, or 383 00:19:42,605 --> 00:19:44,205 Speaker 1: he said he was gonna come and then two days 384 00:19:44,205 --> 00:19:45,126 Speaker 1: later he canceled. 385 00:19:46,026 --> 00:19:49,465 Speaker 1: What struck me reading that is that you didn't confront 386 00:19:49,465 --> 00:19:54,506 Speaker 1: him about anything, about when you read about, oh, he's 387 00:19:54,506 --> 00:19:57,626 Speaker 1: been negotiating with Channel 7 about maybe moving or getting 388 00:19:57,626 --> 00:20:00,825 Speaker 1: off the Today Show. He didn't, you know, come to 389 00:20:00,825 --> 00:20:03,345 Speaker 1: the wedding, and he was quite cavalier about that. 390 00:20:04,455 --> 00:20:06,315 Speaker 1: You never sort of said. 391 00:20:07,355 --> 00:20:09,516 Speaker 1: Hey, I was pretty pissed off with you, or I 392 00:20:09,516 --> 00:20:12,036 Speaker 1: was pretty upset, or why am I reading this in 393 00:20:12,036 --> 00:20:14,116 Speaker 1: the paper? Was that just not the relationship 394 00:20:14,116 --> 00:20:17,516 Speaker 2: you had? In writing the book, I really wondered why 395 00:20:17,516 --> 00:20:19,156 Speaker 2: I didn't do that. Yeah, 396 00:20:19,236 --> 00:20:20,975 Speaker 1: cos you're not a wallflower. 397 00:20:21,396 --> 00:20:22,036 Speaker 2: No, I'm not. 398 00:20:22,195 --> 00:20:24,095 Speaker 1: Listen to what you said to Kerry Packer. 399 00:20:25,855 --> 00:20:30,486 Speaker 2: I've had to really examine why I did that. I 400 00:20:30,486 --> 00:20:32,925 Speaker 2: think part of my problem, and I'm sure a lot 401 00:20:32,925 --> 00:20:35,366 Speaker 2: of women listening to this will recognize it. 402 00:20:36,725 --> 00:20:39,925 Speaker 2: We can tend as women to want to be the peacemaker, 403 00:20:40,845 --> 00:20:45,266 Speaker 2: to be the one that sort of stills the troubled waters. 404 00:20:46,075 --> 00:20:49,475 Speaker 2: And I was also very aware that I could have 405 00:20:49,475 --> 00:20:53,075 Speaker 2: agitated a lot more than I did, and I could've 406 00:20:53,075 --> 00:20:56,215 Speaker 2: questioned a lot more, but I always felt that if 407 00:20:56,215 --> 00:21:00,715 Speaker 2: I did, it would muck up our chemistry. 408 00:21:01,276 --> 00:21:02,636 Speaker 1: And yet he didn't feel that way. 409 00:21:03,335 --> 00:21:04,685 Speaker 2: I don't know, you'd have to ask him. 410 00:21:05,585 --> 00:21:07,626 Speaker 2: Over the years, there were a few tensions on set, 411 00:21:07,715 --> 00:21:11,105 Speaker 2: not necessarily between Carl and me. There were others on 412 00:21:11,105 --> 00:21:14,906 Speaker 2: the team, and there were times when I felt like 413 00:21:14,906 --> 00:21:17,945 Speaker 2: the meat in the sandwich where I had to calm 414 00:21:17,945 --> 00:21:20,825 Speaker 2: things down before we came back from a commercial break, 415 00:21:21,345 --> 00:21:23,225 Speaker 2: and we got through it. 416 00:21:23,945 --> 00:21:28,175 Speaker 2: And in the end, my loyalty was always to the audience. 417 00:21:28,876 --> 00:21:32,825 Speaker 2: I had my relationships with the team and you know 418 00:21:32,825 --> 00:21:36,555 Speaker 2: both on air and off-air, but my loyalty every single 419 00:21:36,555 --> 00:21:38,496 Speaker 2: day when I walked into that studio, 420 00:21:39,276 --> 00:21:41,595 Speaker 2: It was twofold. First of all, it was to the 421 00:21:41,595 --> 00:21:44,876 Speaker 2: audience and my profession as a journalist to do the 422 00:21:44,876 --> 00:21:48,896 Speaker 2: best possible job as we presented the news every day. 423 00:21:49,355 --> 00:21:51,516 Speaker 2: It also goes back to the very first day that 424 00:21:51,516 --> 00:21:55,156 Speaker 2: I was ever on TV sitting at a desk, and 425 00:21:55,156 --> 00:21:56,945 Speaker 2: that was when I did Beauty and the Beast, and 426 00:21:56,945 --> 00:22:00,036 Speaker 2: that was when I went on maternity leave. For starters, 427 00:22:00,075 --> 00:22:02,475 Speaker 2: I thought, how weird that I would, 428 00:22:03,055 --> 00:22:06,345 Speaker 2: Get this opportunity to work on television because it was 429 00:22:06,345 --> 00:22:09,906 Speaker 2: only for 13 weeks I think we were doing this show, 430 00:22:09,916 --> 00:22:11,906 Speaker 2: Beauty and the Beast, and it was Foxtel which had 431 00:22:11,906 --> 00:22:14,105 Speaker 2: only just started, so no one was watching anyway, so 432 00:22:14,105 --> 00:22:16,666 Speaker 2: it wasn't really much of a test, but on that 433 00:22:16,666 --> 00:22:18,965 Speaker 2: very first day when I walked in, I was sitting, 434 00:22:19,796 --> 00:22:21,766 Speaker 2: The idea behind Beauty and the Beast was there was 435 00:22:21,766 --> 00:22:23,526 Speaker 2: one guy sitting in the middle who was meant to 436 00:22:23,526 --> 00:22:26,725 Speaker 2: be the sort of misogynistic agitator as he read out 437 00:22:26,725 --> 00:22:29,675 Speaker 2: letters from viewers to four women sitting 438 00:22:29,675 --> 00:22:29,725 Speaker 2: at 439 00:22:29,725 --> 00:22:30,886 Speaker 1: deliberately controversial 440 00:22:30,886 --> 00:22:31,236 Speaker 2: and 441 00:22:31,236 --> 00:22:34,805 Speaker 2: deliberately or solve my dilemma, you know, I've just discovered 442 00:22:34,805 --> 00:22:39,866 Speaker 2: that my brother's sleeping with my, you know, sister-in-law and whatever. 443 00:22:40,286 --> 00:22:42,205 Speaker 2: When I sat down at the desk that day, I 444 00:22:42,205 --> 00:22:45,366 Speaker 2: was with 3 women, including Jennie Little. Between them I 445 00:22:45,366 --> 00:22:47,845 Speaker 2: think they had something like 60 years of experience in television. 446 00:22:47,955 --> 00:22:49,246 Speaker 2: I had exactly 0. 447 00:22:50,055 --> 00:22:52,305 Speaker 2: And I was sitting next to a guy called Stan Zamani, 448 00:22:52,595 --> 00:22:55,166 Speaker 2: who was a late night shock jock on AM radio 449 00:22:55,166 --> 00:22:59,095 Speaker 2: at the time, and the head of Foxtel came out and, 450 00:22:59,105 --> 00:23:02,085 Speaker 2: you know, obviously there to pump us all up and 451 00:23:02,185 --> 00:23:04,256 Speaker 2: said to us, how are we all feeling? And the 452 00:23:04,256 --> 00:23:07,146 Speaker 2: other three women were beside themselves with joy, and Stan 453 00:23:07,146 --> 00:23:08,185 Speaker 2: and I said nothing. 454 00:23:09,075 --> 00:23:11,756 Speaker 2: And Brian came over to us and he said, 455 00:23:12,496 --> 00:23:15,406 Speaker 2: What the hell's wrong with you two, and almost in unison, 456 00:23:15,536 --> 00:23:20,296 Speaker 2: Stan and I, you know, felt this brotherly, sisterly relationship 457 00:23:20,296 --> 00:23:25,016 Speaker 2: as absolute, you know, novices in television, and almost in 458 00:23:25,016 --> 00:23:28,595 Speaker 2: unison we said, we've never done this before. We have 459 00:23:28,595 --> 00:23:32,975 Speaker 2: no clue what we're meant to do now. And it 460 00:23:32,975 --> 00:23:36,916 Speaker 2: was another OFFS moment in my life because he said, 461 00:23:37,095 --> 00:23:40,095 Speaker 2: for fuck's sake, get over yourself, it's only television. 462 00:23:40,825 --> 00:23:43,506 Speaker 2: And it was such a wake-up call to me. It's 463 00:23:43,506 --> 00:23:46,065 Speaker 2: just like, I'm not curing cancer here. None of us 464 00:23:46,065 --> 00:23:50,266 Speaker 2: are curing cancer. We're hoping to entertain some people, maybe 465 00:23:50,266 --> 00:23:51,805 Speaker 2: have some intelligent conversations 466 00:23:51,805 --> 00:23:54,825 Speaker 1: with their cornflakes, looking for their socks. Totally. 467 00:23:55,416 --> 00:23:58,746 Speaker 2: Totally. And so, that was my first time of ever 468 00:23:58,746 --> 00:24:01,425 Speaker 2: looking down the barrel of a camera and trying to 469 00:24:01,425 --> 00:24:04,425 Speaker 2: pretend that that black hole is one person that I 470 00:24:04,425 --> 00:24:06,526 Speaker 2: can connect with. And so, 471 00:24:07,075 --> 00:24:12,305 Speaker 2: Brian taught me also the lesson of approach every show 472 00:24:12,305 --> 00:24:13,845 Speaker 2: as if it is your last. 473 00:24:14,796 --> 00:24:18,916 Speaker 2: Working in television is something that very few people get 474 00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:22,075 Speaker 2: to do and if you enjoy it, and as a journalist, 475 00:24:22,156 --> 00:24:26,036 Speaker 2: if you feel the enormous privilege of what you're getting 476 00:24:26,036 --> 00:24:27,756 Speaker 2: to do, I mean the fact that I get to 477 00:24:27,756 --> 00:24:30,756 Speaker 2: interview prime ministers, like, who gets to do that? Who 478 00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:34,666 Speaker 2: gets to hold politicians to account, and so, you know, 479 00:24:35,036 --> 00:24:37,636 Speaker 2: particularly every day on the Today Show, when I walked 480 00:24:37,636 --> 00:24:38,776 Speaker 2: in that studio, 481 00:24:39,416 --> 00:24:43,026 Speaker 2: I presumed that today was gonna be the last day 482 00:24:43,026 --> 00:24:45,866 Speaker 2: and that someone was gonna tap me on the shoulder 483 00:24:46,486 --> 00:24:48,805 Speaker 2: and blow me down if somebody did. 484 00:24:50,736 --> 00:24:53,136 Speaker 1: I'm Mia Freedman and you're listening to part two of 485 00:24:53,136 --> 00:24:55,296 Speaker 1: my conversation with Lisa Wilkinson. 486 00:24:57,965 --> 00:25:00,646 Speaker 1: I wanna ask you, when you found out that Carl 487 00:25:00,646 --> 00:25:02,486 Speaker 1: was being paid so much more than you to do 488 00:25:02,486 --> 00:25:03,546 Speaker 1: the same job. 489 00:25:04,085 --> 00:25:05,805 Speaker 2: That was, that was, I. 490 00:25:06,776 --> 00:25:08,815 Speaker 2: Somebody contacted me who'd been 491 00:25:09,605 --> 00:25:15,845 Speaker 2: Involved in the negotiations, his negotiations, in Carl's negotiations with 492 00:25:15,886 --> 00:25:19,305 Speaker 2: Channel Seven, and there was no reason to question this person. 493 00:25:21,195 --> 00:25:23,626 Speaker 1: Because Carl was planning to maybe leave Channel 9 and 494 00:25:23,626 --> 00:25:24,605 Speaker 1: go to Channel 7. Yeah. 495 00:25:25,036 --> 00:25:26,996 Speaker 2: And he was the master. I mean, you talk about 496 00:25:26,996 --> 00:25:30,396 Speaker 2: Donald Trump's The Art of the Deal. He was brilliant 497 00:25:30,396 --> 00:25:33,656 Speaker 2: at it. I take my hat off to him because 498 00:25:33,715 --> 00:25:36,376 Speaker 2: there's a lot of what goes on in television that 499 00:25:36,516 --> 00:25:39,475 Speaker 2: involves bullshit, let's face it. You know, there's a lot 500 00:25:39,475 --> 00:25:43,855 Speaker 2: of the stuff behind the scenes, and I've somehow, you know, 501 00:25:43,996 --> 00:25:47,955 Speaker 2: who knows how I've managed to survive in that environment by, 502 00:25:49,075 --> 00:25:51,445 Speaker 2: Making sure that I've followed a 503 00:25:52,195 --> 00:25:54,925 Speaker 2: A set of personal values and a moral code that 504 00:25:54,925 --> 00:25:58,205 Speaker 2: I'm comfortable with, because there's a lot that can go 505 00:25:58,205 --> 00:26:00,925 Speaker 2: on behind the scenes that I'm not comfortable with, and 506 00:26:00,925 --> 00:26:05,105 Speaker 2: I stay away from, but when it came to negotiations 507 00:26:05,805 --> 00:26:06,886 Speaker 2: with other networks, 508 00:26:07,746 --> 00:26:11,646 Speaker 2: And with the network that Carl works for, he was brilliant. 509 00:26:12,225 --> 00:26:13,195 Speaker 2: And it was, 510 00:26:14,046 --> 00:26:16,406 Speaker 2: Almost entertaining to watch, he was so good at it. 511 00:26:16,526 --> 00:26:16,886 Speaker 1: He played 512 00:26:16,886 --> 00:26:17,975 Speaker 1: the game very well. Yeah, 513 00:26:18,766 --> 00:26:18,876 Speaker 2: and, 514 00:26:19,555 --> 00:26:21,886 Speaker 1: and to his credit, to his credit, but obviously finding 515 00:26:21,886 --> 00:26:24,325 Speaker 1: out that you weren't being paid the same or anywhere 516 00:26:24,325 --> 00:26:28,406 Speaker 1: near the same as him, you then asked for not 517 00:26:28,406 --> 00:26:33,565 Speaker 1: even parity, but something closer to parity than you had. 518 00:26:34,636 --> 00:26:37,205 Speaker 1: You were then in the supermarket, negotiations were dragging on, 519 00:26:37,286 --> 00:26:39,345 Speaker 1: you write in the book, you were in the supermarket. 520 00:26:40,205 --> 00:26:43,166 Speaker 1: In the tuna aisle, holding a can of tuna, when 521 00:26:43,166 --> 00:26:45,445 Speaker 1: you get a phone call from your agent to say 522 00:26:45,445 --> 00:26:48,205 Speaker 1: that it's over, that they've said they're not renewing your 523 00:26:48,205 --> 00:26:49,925 Speaker 1: contract and the negotiations are dead. 524 00:26:51,386 --> 00:26:52,335 Speaker 1: What brand of tuna 525 00:26:52,335 --> 00:26:52,766 Speaker 1: was it? 526 00:26:53,016 --> 00:26:57,225 Speaker 2: John West, basil and oven dried tomato. And 527 00:26:57,225 --> 00:26:59,585 Speaker 1: what was the emotion that you felt, what was the 528 00:26:59,585 --> 00:27:02,666 Speaker 1: first emotion that you felt when Nick, your agent, told 529 00:27:02,666 --> 00:27:03,325 Speaker 1: you that? 530 00:27:03,585 --> 00:27:04,585 Speaker 2: Uh, 531 00:27:04,746 --> 00:27:05,945 Speaker 2: oh, shock. 532 00:27:06,185 --> 00:27:07,585 Speaker 1: Did you feel humiliated? 533 00:27:07,746 --> 00:27:12,345 Speaker 2: Oh, all of the emotions just cascaded out. No, I 534 00:27:12,345 --> 00:27:15,256 Speaker 2: didn't get to anger. No. Took me a while to 535 00:27:15,256 --> 00:27:16,546 Speaker 2: get to anger. Yeah. 536 00:27:18,166 --> 00:27:18,236 Speaker 2: Uh 537 00:27:19,565 --> 00:27:23,845 Speaker 2: So what had happened was I'd been negotiating for 538 00:27:26,075 --> 00:27:27,065 Speaker 2: Most of that year. 539 00:27:27,975 --> 00:27:29,345 Speaker 2: For my contract renewal. 540 00:27:30,546 --> 00:27:33,626 Speaker 2: And I'd made it clear that because I'd had the 541 00:27:33,626 --> 00:27:36,945 Speaker 2: absolute detail of what Carl was on, and I don't 542 00:27:36,945 --> 00:27:38,866 Speaker 2: take anything away from him, I want to make that 543 00:27:38,866 --> 00:27:41,445 Speaker 2: absolutely clear. If he could negotiate a deal like that, 544 00:27:41,786 --> 00:27:42,425 Speaker 2: good for him. 545 00:27:43,366 --> 00:27:43,916 Speaker 2: But 546 00:27:45,075 --> 00:27:49,315 Speaker 2: The breakfast TV market is a really lucrative market, and 547 00:27:49,315 --> 00:27:51,335 Speaker 2: we had taken that show together. 548 00:27:52,246 --> 00:27:54,166 Speaker 2: In the space of 10 years to number one. 549 00:27:55,315 --> 00:27:57,236 Speaker 2: Coming from a place where, you know, 550 00:27:58,335 --> 00:28:00,575 Speaker 2: That job that I took on was a bit of 551 00:28:00,575 --> 00:28:01,536 Speaker 2: a poisoned chalice. 552 00:28:02,756 --> 00:28:05,046 Speaker 2: And I felt it was about time that the spoils 553 00:28:05,046 --> 00:28:08,105 Speaker 2: got shared around a little more equitably. 554 00:28:09,315 --> 00:28:10,055 Speaker 2: And 555 00:28:10,776 --> 00:28:13,656 Speaker 2: We'd had 3 attempts to speak to the head of 556 00:28:13,656 --> 00:28:14,656 Speaker 2: Channel 9 about. 557 00:28:15,595 --> 00:28:18,156 Speaker 2: How we maneuver closer to something that feels. 558 00:28:19,805 --> 00:28:20,266 Speaker 2: Fair 559 00:28:21,845 --> 00:28:25,166 Speaker 2: And they'd actually put an offer on the table. 560 00:28:26,796 --> 00:28:30,546 Speaker 2: And I went off and Pete and I got remarried, 561 00:28:31,006 --> 00:28:34,335 Speaker 2: and I was first day back at the desk. 562 00:28:35,406 --> 00:28:36,965 Speaker 2: And I did the show. 563 00:28:37,975 --> 00:28:42,305 Speaker 2: And that afternoon, as I always did, I did the 564 00:28:42,305 --> 00:28:45,786 Speaker 2: afternoon conference call with all of the main producers and 565 00:28:45,786 --> 00:28:46,906 Speaker 2: the executive producer. 566 00:28:48,116 --> 00:28:51,136 Speaker 2: So that I knew what was on the next day's show. 567 00:28:52,236 --> 00:28:54,046 Speaker 2: And I'd actually been trying to get in touch with 568 00:28:54,046 --> 00:28:59,366 Speaker 2: my executive producer for 4 or 5 days because I 569 00:28:59,366 --> 00:29:03,605 Speaker 2: discovered while I was away on our second honeymoon, that 570 00:29:04,006 --> 00:29:08,166 Speaker 2: I had been cut from the upfronts, which is the 571 00:29:08,166 --> 00:29:13,136 Speaker 2: annual presentation that every network and every major media organization 572 00:29:13,136 --> 00:29:16,435 Speaker 2: does to the advertising industry to say, look at this 573 00:29:16,435 --> 00:29:19,205 Speaker 2: suite of fabulous shows and talent that we've got 574 00:29:19,205 --> 00:29:20,945 Speaker 1: for you, um. 575 00:29:21,796 --> 00:29:25,675 Speaker 1: Loved and most valued talent prominently on display, 576 00:29:25,766 --> 00:29:29,276 Speaker 2: yeah, and a few months, or maybe a month or 577 00:29:29,276 --> 00:29:32,396 Speaker 2: so before, I'd found out that the role that Karl 578 00:29:32,396 --> 00:29:35,666 Speaker 2: and I always played in the upfronts wasn't gonna be 579 00:29:35,666 --> 00:29:39,675 Speaker 2: happening this year, and that Georgie was doing it with Karl. 580 00:29:40,565 --> 00:29:43,616 Speaker 2: And I approached both Carl and Georgie and said, do 581 00:29:43,616 --> 00:29:45,516 Speaker 2: you know, do you know what's going on here? 582 00:29:46,236 --> 00:29:48,396 Speaker 2: And they both sort of dismissed it and said, oh, 583 00:29:48,616 --> 00:29:51,876 Speaker 2: you know, oh, I don't know, I'm just, no, don't know. 584 00:29:52,996 --> 00:29:55,396 Speaker 2: And I thought, oh, that's OK. The timing of that's 585 00:29:55,396 --> 00:29:58,075 Speaker 2: actually really unfortunate because that's when Pete and I are 586 00:29:58,075 --> 00:30:01,516 Speaker 2: gonna be away on our second honeymoon, and every year 587 00:30:01,516 --> 00:30:05,516 Speaker 2: you're told you have to be at these upfronts because, 588 00:30:05,675 --> 00:30:05,866 Speaker 2: you know, 589 00:30:05,996 --> 00:30:07,675 Speaker 1: you've gotta schmooze with advertisers. All 590 00:30:07,675 --> 00:30:08,156 Speaker 2: holidays 591 00:30:08,156 --> 00:30:09,136 Speaker 2: get canceled. 592 00:30:10,555 --> 00:30:14,286 Speaker 2: And anyway, I asked, is there any chance I can 593 00:30:14,286 --> 00:30:17,555 Speaker 2: still go away, I'll fly back and do the upfront 594 00:30:17,555 --> 00:30:19,225 Speaker 2: in the middle of this week off. 595 00:30:20,146 --> 00:30:22,065 Speaker 2: And I was told by the head of Channel 90 no, 596 00:30:22,116 --> 00:30:24,065 Speaker 2: don't you worry, you just go off and have your holiday, 597 00:30:24,146 --> 00:30:26,705 Speaker 2: it'll be fine. Did you feel a bit sick? I 598 00:30:26,705 --> 00:30:28,626 Speaker 2: was so excited about. 599 00:30:29,675 --> 00:30:33,305 Speaker 2: All of our beautiful friends and family, including your gorgeous self, 600 00:30:33,435 --> 00:30:35,715 Speaker 2: being there, because none of you knew that we were 601 00:30:35,715 --> 00:30:38,756 Speaker 2: getting married again. We were just saying to all the 602 00:30:38,756 --> 00:30:41,516 Speaker 2: people who have been such a support to us. 603 00:30:41,595 --> 00:30:44,266 Speaker 1: It was just gonna be like a celebration, wasn't it? 604 00:30:44,276 --> 00:30:45,315 Speaker 1: And then you renewed your 605 00:30:45,315 --> 00:30:46,136 Speaker 1: vows. 606 00:30:47,256 --> 00:30:49,746 Speaker 2: It was while I was away that I got calls 607 00:30:49,746 --> 00:30:53,305 Speaker 2: from mates at Channel Nine who said, why weren't you 608 00:30:53,305 --> 00:30:55,246 Speaker 2: in the upfronts? And I said, no, don't be silly. 609 00:30:55,455 --> 00:30:58,465 Speaker 2: I know I wasn't hosting, but I spent a morning 610 00:30:58,465 --> 00:31:01,266 Speaker 2: filming in the car park for something that was gonna 611 00:31:01,266 --> 00:31:04,065 Speaker 2: be slotted in along with all the other people who 612 00:31:04,065 --> 00:31:07,345 Speaker 2: couldn't be there for the big event. They sent me 613 00:31:07,345 --> 00:31:11,105 Speaker 2: the link to the video and I was definitely not 614 00:31:11,105 --> 00:31:11,916 Speaker 2: in the video. 615 00:31:12,636 --> 00:31:16,156 Speaker 2: And I'd been ringing my executive producer for days trying 616 00:31:16,156 --> 00:31:17,475 Speaker 2: to find out what was going on. 617 00:31:18,236 --> 00:31:19,475 Speaker 2: And he wouldn't get back to me. 618 00:31:20,605 --> 00:31:22,105 Speaker 2: When I got on the conference call, 619 00:31:23,116 --> 00:31:26,756 Speaker 2: I said to my executive producer Mark, Mark, did you 620 00:31:26,756 --> 00:31:29,236 Speaker 2: get all my messages? I've been waiting to hear from you. 621 00:31:29,906 --> 00:31:32,156 Speaker 2: And he said, oh no, I didn't, I must have 622 00:31:32,156 --> 00:31:34,315 Speaker 2: missed them. Look, come on, we've got to do the 623 00:31:34,315 --> 00:31:36,675 Speaker 2: rest of the call. He said nothing. 624 00:31:37,546 --> 00:31:41,406 Speaker 2: And I'd literally just hung up from the conference call 625 00:31:41,715 --> 00:31:43,075 Speaker 2: when Nick, my manager called me. 626 00:31:43,156 --> 00:31:43,396 Speaker 1: So no 627 00:31:43,396 --> 00:31:45,276 Speaker 1: one at Channel Nine even called to tell you that 628 00:31:45,276 --> 00:31:46,146 Speaker 1: you were axed. 629 00:31:46,355 --> 00:31:46,715 Speaker 2: Never. 630 00:31:47,486 --> 00:31:49,085 Speaker 2: I've never heard from any of them. 631 00:31:49,246 --> 00:31:52,406 Speaker 1: And why would they not let you back on air 632 00:31:52,406 --> 00:31:55,166 Speaker 1: the next day to say goodbye? Why did they treat 633 00:31:55,166 --> 00:31:59,286 Speaker 1: you like some kind of criminal and disrespect the Today 634 00:31:59,286 --> 00:32:02,166 Speaker 1: Show fans and not allow you to come back and 635 00:32:02,166 --> 00:32:03,996 Speaker 1: say goodbye? What was their reasoning? 636 00:32:04,166 --> 00:32:04,286 Speaker 2: I 637 00:32:04,286 --> 00:32:07,406 Speaker 2: was never told, so I can only guess. What 638 00:32:07,406 --> 00:32:08,325 Speaker 1: did they think you were gonna 639 00:32:08,325 --> 00:32:08,866 Speaker 1: do? 640 00:32:12,536 --> 00:32:14,886 Speaker 2: I have no clue, you would have to ask them that. 641 00:32:15,376 --> 00:32:18,246 Speaker 2: I think they were trying to make an example of me, 642 00:32:18,656 --> 00:32:22,416 Speaker 2: because there had been talk about the big gender pay 643 00:32:22,416 --> 00:32:25,656 Speaker 2: gap that existed at the Today Show desk. There'd been 644 00:32:25,656 --> 00:32:28,416 Speaker 2: a lot of talk about it. Charlie Pickering had asked 645 00:32:28,416 --> 00:32:30,616 Speaker 2: me about it on his show. 646 00:32:31,355 --> 00:32:34,065 Speaker 2: And I had to do a lot of, 647 00:32:35,036 --> 00:32:38,166 Speaker 2: I was a duck, and I was paddling real hard 648 00:32:38,166 --> 00:32:39,205 Speaker 2: under the 649 00:32:39,205 --> 00:32:41,136 Speaker 1: throw your employer under the bus, but you also didn't 650 00:32:41,136 --> 00:32:41,825 Speaker 1: wanna lie, 651 00:32:42,095 --> 00:32:44,835 Speaker 2: but I also didn't wanna throw Karl under the bus, 652 00:32:45,376 --> 00:32:46,996 Speaker 2: so I had to kind of say, look, 653 00:32:47,825 --> 00:32:50,705 Speaker 2: I don't really know what Carl's on, but he doesn't 654 00:32:50,705 --> 00:32:53,906 Speaker 2: really know what I'm on, and of course Charlie Pickering 655 00:32:53,906 --> 00:32:55,646 Speaker 2: said to me, I call bullshit. 656 00:32:56,646 --> 00:32:59,955 Speaker 2: Awkward. So there were a lot of headlines about the 657 00:32:59,955 --> 00:33:00,435 Speaker 2: gender pay 658 00:33:00,435 --> 00:33:00,666 Speaker 2: gap. 659 00:33:00,736 --> 00:33:04,195 Speaker 1: You think it was like, don't any of you get 660 00:33:04,195 --> 00:33:04,565 Speaker 1: too 661 00:33:05,465 --> 00:33:06,195 Speaker 1: bolshy. Well, 662 00:33:06,266 --> 00:33:07,955 Speaker 2: it's a good way to scare other women off who 663 00:33:07,955 --> 00:33:09,416 Speaker 2: might be asking for a pay rise. 664 00:33:10,626 --> 00:33:13,016 Speaker 2: And I'm not the first, and I'm not the only 665 00:33:13,016 --> 00:33:16,185 Speaker 2: industry where that stuff happens, but you know, if you 666 00:33:17,986 --> 00:33:19,435 Speaker 2: If you start to 667 00:33:21,026 --> 00:33:24,085 Speaker 2: Think maybe I'm worth more to my employer than. 668 00:33:25,325 --> 00:33:27,705 Speaker 2: Than they do, that's when you start thinking, 669 00:33:28,935 --> 00:33:33,646 Speaker 2: Do I really want to be here anymore, and quite bizarrely, 670 00:33:35,256 --> 00:33:40,656 Speaker 2: Just 4 weeks before I'd been approached by the project, and, 671 00:33:41,465 --> 00:33:44,065 Speaker 2: Again, Channel 9 had no clue. 672 00:33:44,925 --> 00:33:49,156 Speaker 2: That I've been approached by Channel 10. So, that was 673 00:33:49,286 --> 00:33:51,215 Speaker 2: just something that I had in my back pocket, and 674 00:33:51,215 --> 00:33:54,736 Speaker 2: I'd been questioning for a couple of months, whether I 675 00:33:54,736 --> 00:33:59,656 Speaker 2: was still happy there, and I still don't know where 676 00:33:59,656 --> 00:34:01,695 Speaker 2: I was going to go with the fact that there 677 00:34:01,695 --> 00:34:04,536 Speaker 2: was an offer on the table, and Nick had said 678 00:34:04,536 --> 00:34:05,815 Speaker 2: to me while I was away, 679 00:34:06,786 --> 00:34:09,625 Speaker 2: This offer from Channel 10 is sitting here. They really, really, 680 00:34:09,786 --> 00:34:10,705 Speaker 2: really want you. 681 00:34:11,906 --> 00:34:14,665 Speaker 2: There's an offer from Channel 9 as well, what do 682 00:34:14,665 --> 00:34:18,865 Speaker 2: you want to do? And I couldn't decide, and I 683 00:34:18,864 --> 00:34:22,465 Speaker 2: was so confused by Carl not contacting me after he 684 00:34:22,464 --> 00:34:24,785 Speaker 2: didn't turn up at the wedding, and I was so 685 00:34:24,786 --> 00:34:27,806 Speaker 2: confused that my executive producer wouldn't speak to me. 686 00:34:28,725 --> 00:34:32,286 Speaker 2: And I said to Nick, I think I just need 687 00:34:32,286 --> 00:34:34,605 Speaker 2: to go to work on Monday and decide how I feel. 688 00:34:36,806 --> 00:34:39,665 Speaker 2: And I went to work on Monday and something. 689 00:34:41,036 --> 00:34:42,766 Speaker 2: A couple of weird things happened. 690 00:34:43,975 --> 00:34:46,056 Speaker 2: Carl never said anything about the fact that he didn't 691 00:34:46,056 --> 00:34:46,895 Speaker 2: turn up at the wedding. 692 00:34:47,694 --> 00:34:49,006 Speaker 2: Until the cameras went on. 693 00:34:51,245 --> 00:34:52,874 Speaker 2: And I had a moment of thinking. 694 00:34:54,174 --> 00:34:59,296 Speaker 2: Right, so this is actually just a relationship for the cameras. 695 00:35:01,205 --> 00:35:05,114 Speaker 2: He never texted me, he never said congratulations, he texted 696 00:35:05,114 --> 00:35:08,085 Speaker 2: Pete and said we're not coming, but he never texted me. 697 00:35:09,725 --> 00:35:13,326 Speaker 2: And I was trying to compute all of that because 698 00:35:13,326 --> 00:35:14,805 Speaker 2: I never understood. 699 00:35:16,506 --> 00:35:19,085 Speaker 2: Why he wouldn't talk to me. 700 00:35:20,996 --> 00:35:21,796 Speaker 2: And 701 00:35:22,756 --> 00:35:23,465 Speaker 2: That morning 702 00:35:25,475 --> 00:35:29,154 Speaker 2: The only congratulations I got was when we started the 703 00:35:29,154 --> 00:35:30,276 Speaker 2: show at 5:30. 704 00:35:30,955 --> 00:35:33,305 Speaker 2: And I was, I was furious. 705 00:35:34,516 --> 00:35:37,815 Speaker 2: Cos I also felt a bit foolish, cos I just thought. 706 00:35:38,944 --> 00:35:41,655 Speaker 2: I don't even know what this relationship is. I don't. 707 00:35:42,895 --> 00:35:45,736 Speaker 2: This is purely just a relationship for the cameras. 708 00:35:46,915 --> 00:35:50,195 Speaker 2: And I couldn't talk to him for 2 hours, apart 709 00:35:50,194 --> 00:35:53,065 Speaker 2: from what was scripted, I just couldn't talk to him. 710 00:35:53,395 --> 00:35:56,965 Speaker 2: For the first time in over a decade, I didn't 711 00:35:56,964 --> 00:35:59,155 Speaker 2: trust myself that I was gonna play nice. 712 00:36:00,046 --> 00:36:02,766 Speaker 2: And so I chatted to Sylvia, who'd also been at 713 00:36:02,766 --> 00:36:05,746 Speaker 2: the wedding and who remains a good friend. 714 00:36:07,006 --> 00:36:08,986 Speaker 2: But then I got to 7:30. 715 00:36:09,694 --> 00:36:12,475 Speaker 2: And I remember the promise I'd always made to myself. 716 00:36:13,404 --> 00:36:15,374 Speaker 2: That I would do every show as if it was 717 00:36:15,375 --> 00:36:16,195 Speaker 2: my last. 718 00:36:17,185 --> 00:36:20,236 Speaker 2: Because part of the problem also was the rundown for 719 00:36:20,236 --> 00:36:24,796 Speaker 2: that day was really weird. Almost every interview was being 720 00:36:24,796 --> 00:36:28,435 Speaker 2: done by Carl on his own. I got the girls chat. 721 00:36:29,674 --> 00:36:30,725 Speaker 2: At 8:40 722 00:36:32,645 --> 00:36:35,955 Speaker 2: And I ended up sending an email to both Pete 723 00:36:35,955 --> 00:36:39,415 Speaker 2: and Nick, my manager, and said there's something really weird 724 00:36:39,415 --> 00:36:40,015 Speaker 2: going on. 725 00:36:40,996 --> 00:36:45,796 Speaker 2: I've just come off a show that's gone from being 726 00:36:45,796 --> 00:36:49,756 Speaker 2: the Today Show to being the Carl Show, and I 727 00:36:49,756 --> 00:36:52,055 Speaker 2: don't even know where I fit in here anymore, I mean, 728 00:36:52,516 --> 00:36:54,256 Speaker 2: what is this, the 1960s? 729 00:36:56,415 --> 00:36:59,635 Speaker 2: And then that afternoon, got the phone call from Nick, 730 00:37:00,016 --> 00:37:03,736 Speaker 2: and he said um he'd just come from the head 731 00:37:03,736 --> 00:37:05,425 Speaker 2: of Channel Nine's office. 732 00:37:06,375 --> 00:37:09,625 Speaker 2: And I said, oh, how did it go, because I 733 00:37:09,625 --> 00:37:12,006 Speaker 2: knew that he was having a conversation with him that afternoon. 734 00:37:12,955 --> 00:37:15,096 Speaker 2: And he said, you're off the show. 735 00:37:16,006 --> 00:37:17,665 Speaker 2: And I said to him, off what show? 736 00:37:19,276 --> 00:37:20,535 Speaker 2: And he said the Today Show. 737 00:37:22,036 --> 00:37:23,536 Speaker 2: You're never to appear again. 738 00:37:26,904 --> 00:37:28,125 Speaker 2: And I was literally 739 00:37:29,736 --> 00:37:33,135 Speaker 2: I was deciding between the, the lemon vinaigrette can of 740 00:37:33,134 --> 00:37:36,174 Speaker 2: tuna and the oven dried tomato can of tuna. 741 00:37:37,134 --> 00:37:39,296 Speaker 2: I had a moment where I thought, 742 00:37:41,026 --> 00:37:42,595 Speaker 2: I know I just heard that. 743 00:37:44,125 --> 00:37:47,654 Speaker 2: But did that just come over the loudspeaker? 744 00:37:48,444 --> 00:37:51,286 Speaker 2: Like, is everybody who's wandering around this supermarket right now, 745 00:37:51,364 --> 00:37:52,625 Speaker 2: did they hear that as well? 746 00:37:53,375 --> 00:37:56,585 Speaker 1: Oh, you felt so vulnerable and exposed. 747 00:37:56,654 --> 00:37:57,695 Speaker 2: I felt. 748 00:37:59,435 --> 00:38:00,746 Speaker 2: I felt really. 749 00:38:02,546 --> 00:38:03,736 Speaker 2: First of all, it was shock. 750 00:38:04,725 --> 00:38:06,286 Speaker 2: And then it was. 751 00:38:09,185 --> 00:38:10,165 Speaker 2: Humiliation. 752 00:38:12,205 --> 00:38:14,046 Speaker 2: And then it was. 753 00:38:15,276 --> 00:38:15,815 Speaker 2: Thinking 754 00:38:16,935 --> 00:38:17,614 Speaker 2: Wow 755 00:38:18,634 --> 00:38:21,194 Speaker 2: All those moments when I didn't go to the kids' 756 00:38:21,194 --> 00:38:25,076 Speaker 2: school concerts because I had work things going on. All 757 00:38:25,076 --> 00:38:28,796 Speaker 2: those birthdays because we were on the road for our 758 00:38:28,796 --> 00:38:32,475 Speaker 2: We Love Australia tours, all those wedding anniversaries that I 759 00:38:32,475 --> 00:38:35,955 Speaker 2: missed because I was, you know, somewhere in outback New 760 00:38:35,955 --> 00:38:39,495 Speaker 2: South Wales. All those times when I was grumpy because 761 00:38:39,496 --> 00:38:40,815 Speaker 2: I wasn't getting enough sleep. 762 00:38:43,065 --> 00:38:45,904 Speaker 2: When it came to loyalty to the show, I don't 763 00:38:45,904 --> 00:38:49,745 Speaker 2: think anybody had the loyalty to that show the way 764 00:38:49,746 --> 00:38:50,486 Speaker 2: that I did. 765 00:38:51,424 --> 00:38:52,095 Speaker 2: And yet 766 00:38:52,776 --> 00:38:55,335 Speaker 2: And I know I was paid well. I don't for 767 00:38:55,335 --> 00:38:58,536 Speaker 2: a moment want anybody to feel sorry for me in 768 00:38:58,536 --> 00:39:00,415 Speaker 2: that way, because I was paid well. 769 00:39:02,455 --> 00:39:06,296 Speaker 2: But the loyalty that I had to that show was 770 00:39:06,296 --> 00:39:09,614 Speaker 2: not reciprocated by the person that was running Channel 9 771 00:39:09,614 --> 00:39:11,856 Speaker 2: at that time, that counted for nothing. 772 00:39:12,884 --> 00:39:15,605 Speaker 2: I had to grow up really quickly, and I had 773 00:39:15,605 --> 00:39:17,225 Speaker 2: to sort of remind myself. 774 00:39:18,335 --> 00:39:19,435 Speaker 2: It's only the television. 775 00:39:21,134 --> 00:39:21,884 Speaker 2: And 776 00:39:22,855 --> 00:39:25,685 Speaker 2: I remember driving home and thinking, cos I tried to 777 00:39:25,685 --> 00:39:28,634 Speaker 2: call Pete and his phone went straight to voicemail. 778 00:39:30,415 --> 00:39:32,256 Speaker 2: And then I thought, oh, I'll call Carl. 779 00:39:33,756 --> 00:39:34,575 Speaker 2: And then I thought, 780 00:39:35,955 --> 00:39:37,516 Speaker 2: Is that why you didn't come to the wedding? 781 00:39:39,006 --> 00:39:40,904 Speaker 2: Is that why he never texted me? 782 00:39:42,065 --> 00:39:45,746 Speaker 2: Is that why the show this morning, because remember, you know, 783 00:39:45,944 --> 00:39:48,265 Speaker 2: Carl's the guy that wore the same suit for a 784 00:39:48,266 --> 00:39:51,865 Speaker 2: year because he didn't like, he said, the way that 785 00:39:51,864 --> 00:39:56,125 Speaker 2: women in television were treated, and yet, why didn't he 786 00:39:56,125 --> 00:39:57,645 Speaker 2: question the rundown that morning? 787 00:39:58,435 --> 00:40:01,765 Speaker 2: That was so Carl heavy, it was just the Carl 788 00:40:01,766 --> 00:40:04,486 Speaker 2: show that morning. Like why didn't he stand up and 789 00:40:04,486 --> 00:40:05,246 Speaker 2: say something? 790 00:40:07,746 --> 00:40:10,915 Speaker 2: And then I thought, does my executive producer know that 791 00:40:10,915 --> 00:40:12,175 Speaker 2: I've just been sacked? 792 00:40:12,996 --> 00:40:13,776 Speaker 2: Oh, hang on 793 00:40:14,496 --> 00:40:18,975 Speaker 2: Is that why he didn't return my calls? Is that 794 00:40:18,975 --> 00:40:22,375 Speaker 2: why he wouldn't come down on set that morning? 795 00:40:24,364 --> 00:40:27,085 Speaker 2: Because, you know, and I'd questioned him, I'd, on the 796 00:40:27,085 --> 00:40:31,826 Speaker 2: internal messaging system, I'd sent a message to him, you know, 797 00:40:32,165 --> 00:40:34,975 Speaker 2: what's going on with the rundown, why I'm hardly in here? 798 00:40:35,404 --> 00:40:38,315 Speaker 2: Is this a mistake? And all I got back was, 799 00:40:38,565 --> 00:40:39,424 Speaker 2: it's not a mistake. 800 00:40:41,964 --> 00:40:44,246 Speaker 2: And I waited about 5 minutes because that kind of 801 00:40:44,246 --> 00:40:45,806 Speaker 2: chilled me to the bone. 802 00:40:46,605 --> 00:40:48,445 Speaker 2: Cos I was thinking I don't, I don't know what's 803 00:40:48,444 --> 00:40:51,605 Speaker 2: happening here, and I messaged him again and I said 804 00:40:51,605 --> 00:40:53,326 Speaker 2: can I see you after the show, and I got 805 00:40:53,326 --> 00:40:53,945 Speaker 2: no response. 806 00:40:54,826 --> 00:40:57,736 Speaker 2: And I went upstairs to see him. He wasn't there. 807 00:40:58,026 --> 00:41:01,215 Speaker 2: He was normally running a 9:30 meeting, didn't turn up 808 00:41:01,214 --> 00:41:03,286 Speaker 2: for that, no one knew where he was. 809 00:41:04,026 --> 00:41:06,815 Speaker 1: How do you get closure on all of this? Did 810 00:41:06,815 --> 00:41:07,664 Speaker 1: you ever have it out with 811 00:41:07,665 --> 00:41:12,306 Speaker 2: Carl? I insisted that we go to lunch two weeks afterwards. 812 00:41:12,384 --> 00:41:12,826 Speaker 2: Did he call 813 00:41:12,826 --> 00:41:14,895 Speaker 1: you that night? I can't remember. Well, 814 00:41:14,944 --> 00:41:15,905 Speaker 2: you were there that night, 815 00:41:16,065 --> 00:41:17,776 Speaker 1: but I can't remember that night that. 816 00:41:18,806 --> 00:41:21,085 Speaker 1: I just heard on the radio, I think that you 817 00:41:21,085 --> 00:41:23,236 Speaker 1: were leaving the Today Show cos they just put the 818 00:41:23,236 --> 00:41:26,606 Speaker 1: press release out straight away, didn't they? It all happened 819 00:41:26,605 --> 00:41:26,714 Speaker 1: quite 820 00:41:26,714 --> 00:41:26,725 Speaker 1: quickly. 821 00:41:27,605 --> 00:41:32,506 Speaker 2: No, no, you turned up cos I think Billy told you. 822 00:41:33,085 --> 00:41:33,725 Speaker 1: No, I 823 00:41:33,725 --> 00:41:35,205 Speaker 1: heard it on the radio. 824 00:41:35,694 --> 00:41:38,654 Speaker 1: Lisa Wilkinson has left the Today Show. 825 00:41:38,815 --> 00:41:39,414 Speaker 2: Were you there 826 00:41:39,415 --> 00:41:40,335 Speaker 2: that late in the piece, 827 00:41:40,455 --> 00:41:40,815 Speaker 2: were you? 828 00:41:41,016 --> 00:41:43,256 Speaker 1: It's all a blur. I can't, unless I got a 829 00:41:43,256 --> 00:41:45,464 Speaker 1: text from Pete, I don't know. Ah, you got a 830 00:41:45,464 --> 00:41:47,996 Speaker 1: text from I got a text from Pete. Because 831 00:41:47,996 --> 00:41:48,215 Speaker 2: he 832 00:41:48,214 --> 00:41:52,374 Speaker 2: texted all of my closest girlfriends to, to let them 833 00:41:52,375 --> 00:41:53,336 Speaker 2: know what was 834 00:41:53,335 --> 00:41:54,894 Speaker 2: about to hit that 835 00:41:54,895 --> 00:41:57,875 Speaker 1: cause then I grabbed some champagne because then he said, 836 00:41:57,924 --> 00:42:00,134 Speaker 1: also the project because it had all happened within about 837 00:42:00,134 --> 00:42:03,135 Speaker 1: 20 minutes. She's going to 10, and so I just 838 00:42:03,134 --> 00:42:04,675 Speaker 1: grabbed some champagne, got in the car. 839 00:42:05,424 --> 00:42:08,425 Speaker 1: And then it all just unfolded, kind of in slow 840 00:42:08,424 --> 00:42:10,424 Speaker 1: motion that night. It was, you know, I was so 841 00:42:10,424 --> 00:42:12,855 Speaker 1: worried about you, you were sort of in shock. You 842 00:42:12,855 --> 00:42:15,125 Speaker 1: still had your makeup on from the show that morning. 843 00:42:15,915 --> 00:42:17,875 Speaker 1: I don't even remember what there was no tuna in sight, 844 00:42:17,955 --> 00:42:20,715 Speaker 1: that's for sure. Um, I think someone ordered pizza, I 845 00:42:20,714 --> 00:42:21,864 Speaker 1: can't remember. The tuna 846 00:42:21,864 --> 00:42:23,875 Speaker 2: was put back on the shelf along with the toilet 847 00:42:23,875 --> 00:42:24,046 Speaker 2: paper. 848 00:42:24,114 --> 00:42:26,355 Speaker 1: I was in my pajamas and I'm trying to remember 849 00:42:26,355 --> 00:42:29,114 Speaker 1: your phone was blowing up and I'm trying to remember 850 00:42:29,114 --> 00:42:30,826 Speaker 1: if Carl called you that night. 851 00:42:30,996 --> 00:42:35,455 Speaker 2: To be honest, there were so many messages from people, texts, everything. 852 00:42:36,634 --> 00:42:40,435 Speaker 2: That even in more recent times, in writing the book, 853 00:42:40,875 --> 00:42:44,536 Speaker 2: I've gone to text people to check facts with them, 854 00:42:44,756 --> 00:42:48,674 Speaker 2: and I've found that they sent me a message that 855 00:42:48,674 --> 00:42:50,435 Speaker 2: night that I hadn't 856 00:42:50,435 --> 00:42:50,715 Speaker 2: seen. 857 00:42:50,835 --> 00:42:53,236 Speaker 1: I remember you stepped outside to speak to Carrie Bickmore 858 00:42:53,236 --> 00:42:54,364 Speaker 1: to welcome you and Carrie 859 00:42:54,364 --> 00:42:58,915 Speaker 2: and Wali called me that night. And so far, and 860 00:42:58,915 --> 00:43:03,856 Speaker 2: the executive producer of Sunrise rang, Michael Pell, to thank me. 861 00:43:04,685 --> 00:43:07,425 Speaker 1: But so you called Carl and said, let's go to lunch. 862 00:43:09,194 --> 00:43:09,986 Speaker 1: Two weeks later. 863 00:43:10,154 --> 00:43:14,096 Speaker 2: To be honest, I can't remember who contacted who, but, 864 00:43:14,864 --> 00:43:17,326 Speaker 2: It took a little while for the lunch to happen. 865 00:43:18,026 --> 00:43:21,325 Speaker 2: I was so happy to be going to the project. 866 00:43:21,464 --> 00:43:24,745 Speaker 2: I was beyond thrilled to be going to the project. 867 00:43:24,826 --> 00:43:27,865 Speaker 2: I mean, that was such an important step in the 868 00:43:27,864 --> 00:43:31,585 Speaker 2: right direction for me. I was sad about the, 869 00:43:31,694 --> 00:43:32,065 Speaker 2: um, 870 00:43:32,346 --> 00:43:34,225 Speaker 1: the fact that they smeared you as you walked out 871 00:43:34,225 --> 00:43:36,345 Speaker 1: the door at Channel 9. Were you sad about that? 872 00:43:36,546 --> 00:43:39,736 Speaker 1: I was pretty fucking enraged about that. Well, 873 00:43:40,105 --> 00:43:42,305 Speaker 2: you know, a lot of that, I've only seen in 874 00:43:42,306 --> 00:43:44,465 Speaker 2: recent times. Again, in writing. 875 00:43:44,565 --> 00:43:47,715 Speaker 2: The book, I've had to go back and read what 876 00:43:47,714 --> 00:43:48,535 Speaker 2: was being put out 877 00:43:48,536 --> 00:43:51,944 Speaker 1: there at the time. They painted you out as being greedy. 878 00:43:52,174 --> 00:43:52,614 Speaker 2: I do 879 00:43:52,614 --> 00:43:54,975 Speaker 2: know that 9 producers were gonna be sacked. 880 00:43:55,685 --> 00:43:58,174 Speaker 1: They said, if we'd have paid her what she wanted, 881 00:43:58,256 --> 00:44:00,845 Speaker 1: we would have had to sack 9 or 10 producers, 882 00:44:01,134 --> 00:44:03,576 Speaker 1: which was never said about Kyle's salary. And the other 883 00:44:03,576 --> 00:44:05,736 Speaker 1: thing that was said by the head of Channel 9 884 00:44:05,736 --> 00:44:09,654 Speaker 1: at the time was, I've got 7 or 8 women 885 00:44:09,654 --> 00:44:11,276 Speaker 1: who can sit in that chair tomorrow. 886 00:44:12,904 --> 00:44:13,475 Speaker 1: Which 887 00:44:14,306 --> 00:44:17,825 Speaker 1: Putting you to one side, the level of disrespect that 888 00:44:17,826 --> 00:44:18,506 Speaker 1: it showed. 889 00:44:19,246 --> 00:44:22,904 Speaker 1: The Today Show audience, it treated you as so incidental, 890 00:44:23,125 --> 00:44:25,975 Speaker 1: and what came after this, and I can say this, 891 00:44:26,046 --> 00:44:29,684 Speaker 1: you don't have to, but when the Today Show ratings 892 00:44:29,685 --> 00:44:30,546 Speaker 1: fell in a heap, 893 00:44:31,306 --> 00:44:35,286 Speaker 1: And the next thing that incensed me was how all 894 00:44:35,286 --> 00:44:39,124 Speaker 1: these TV critics and media journalists were writing about, was 895 00:44:39,125 --> 00:44:44,765 Speaker 1: it Kyle's marriage breakdown that caused people to leave the 896 00:44:44,766 --> 00:44:47,046 Speaker 1: Today Show and move to Sunrise. And it's like, nobody 897 00:44:47,046 --> 00:44:50,925 Speaker 1: pinpointed the fact that ratings collapsed after you left. After 898 00:44:50,924 --> 00:44:56,506 Speaker 1: you left in such an undignified, rude, unfair, unjust way, 899 00:44:56,605 --> 00:44:59,006 Speaker 1: without explanation in the dead of the night. 900 00:44:59,815 --> 00:45:01,335 Speaker 1: That's when ratings tanked. 901 00:45:02,826 --> 00:45:04,404 Speaker 1: That's not a question, that's just a comment. 902 00:45:05,975 --> 00:45:07,576 Speaker 1: Would you like me to write an addendum in your 903 00:45:07,576 --> 00:45:07,705 Speaker 1: book? 904 00:45:08,096 --> 00:45:09,346 Speaker 2: Tony Jones on Q&A? 905 00:45:11,296 --> 00:45:14,336 Speaker 1: Exactly. I'm giving myself a comment. How do you heal 906 00:45:14,335 --> 00:45:17,296 Speaker 1: from that? Closure is such a cliched word, but how 907 00:45:17,296 --> 00:45:20,286 Speaker 1: do you process all of that when it happens in 908 00:45:20,286 --> 00:45:21,895 Speaker 1: such a shock, and it must have triggered a whole 909 00:45:21,895 --> 00:45:24,855 Speaker 1: lot of things about bullying and a million different things 910 00:45:24,855 --> 00:45:25,475 Speaker 1: for you? 911 00:45:25,935 --> 00:45:27,256 Speaker 2: I just had to make peace with it. 912 00:45:27,455 --> 00:45:28,065 Speaker 1: Therapy? 913 00:45:28,576 --> 00:45:28,885 Speaker 2: No? 914 00:45:29,714 --> 00:45:32,315 Speaker 2: No, no, not at all. I um. 915 00:45:34,975 --> 00:45:37,015 Speaker 2: I just had to make peace with it and be 916 00:45:37,016 --> 00:45:41,736 Speaker 2: realistic about it's television, yeah, and, again, I earn a 917 00:45:41,736 --> 00:45:45,975 Speaker 2: good wage, I can't complain too much about, 918 00:45:47,096 --> 00:45:49,975 Speaker 2: What happened, because, you know, a lot of television is 919 00:45:49,975 --> 00:45:50,835 Speaker 2: a crapshoot. 920 00:45:51,556 --> 00:45:54,105 Speaker 2: You know, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. 921 00:45:54,826 --> 00:45:58,246 Speaker 2: It so happened that at the time, 922 00:45:59,205 --> 00:46:03,736 Speaker 2: That I left, the gender pay gap was a real 923 00:46:04,435 --> 00:46:07,915 Speaker 2: issue that was starting to open up wide for a 924 00:46:07,915 --> 00:46:10,874 Speaker 2: lot of women, and a lot of industries were having 925 00:46:10,875 --> 00:46:13,194 Speaker 2: to address it, and they were having to look at 926 00:46:13,194 --> 00:46:15,875 Speaker 2: the skeletons in their own closet. So I think the 927 00:46:15,875 --> 00:46:19,415 Speaker 2: timing of it was really unfortunate for Channel Nine and 928 00:46:19,776 --> 00:46:22,634 Speaker 2: even more surprising because it was such a, a big 929 00:46:22,634 --> 00:46:23,556 Speaker 2: talking point. 930 00:46:24,444 --> 00:46:25,245 Speaker 2: And 931 00:46:26,346 --> 00:46:29,995 Speaker 2: In terms of getting closure, there is nothing like moving 932 00:46:29,996 --> 00:46:33,395 Speaker 2: on to something that brings you enormous joy and to 933 00:46:33,395 --> 00:46:37,355 Speaker 2: be working with colleagues, the caliber of Walid and Carrie 934 00:46:37,355 --> 00:46:41,375 Speaker 2: and Pete Hellier and Hamish McDonald and to be working 935 00:46:41,375 --> 00:46:45,864 Speaker 2: with an extraordinary group of producers, you know, 936 00:46:46,036 --> 00:46:46,855 Speaker 1: feeling appreciated. 937 00:46:47,236 --> 00:46:50,536 Speaker 2: Yeah, the Walkley Award winners and you know, just, 938 00:46:51,246 --> 00:46:55,645 Speaker 2: Amazing people, and it was about going to something brand 939 00:46:55,645 --> 00:46:58,526 Speaker 2: new where I could learn a whole new lot of 940 00:46:58,526 --> 00:47:01,835 Speaker 2: skills because the project is very different to the Today 941 00:47:01,835 --> 00:47:04,526 Speaker 2: Show and I finally was gonna get to go out 942 00:47:04,526 --> 00:47:09,046 Speaker 2: and do long form interviews and get my teeth into 943 00:47:09,046 --> 00:47:13,805 Speaker 2: really meaty stories because breakfast TV absolutely has its place. 944 00:47:13,895 --> 00:47:18,134 Speaker 2: But if it doesn't fit into 3 minutes then probably 945 00:47:18,134 --> 00:47:22,256 Speaker 2: won't get to address it. Whereas on the project, you know, 946 00:47:22,335 --> 00:47:24,575 Speaker 2: I can do something like Brittany Higgins that, that goes 947 00:47:24,576 --> 00:47:27,535 Speaker 2: for half an hour. And I never got those opportunities 948 00:47:27,536 --> 00:47:31,335 Speaker 2: at 9, and for whatever reason, 9 obviously decided that 949 00:47:31,335 --> 00:47:37,495 Speaker 2: I didn't fit their mold or their brand or, you know, yeah, 950 00:47:37,756 --> 00:47:41,455 Speaker 2: I wasn't Carl. So, you know, I got treated differently, 951 00:47:41,576 --> 00:47:43,395 Speaker 2: but that's OK because I, 952 00:47:43,915 --> 00:47:48,435 Speaker 2: will forever be grateful to David Gyngell, at 9, who 953 00:47:48,435 --> 00:47:49,995 Speaker 2: was my great champion there. 954 00:47:50,404 --> 00:47:52,816 Speaker 2: And there were so many good people that I worked 955 00:47:52,815 --> 00:47:57,286 Speaker 2: with and particularly young producers and Tom Malone, who was my, 956 00:47:57,614 --> 00:48:00,975 Speaker 2: who remains one of my closest friends, who was my 957 00:48:00,975 --> 00:48:03,836 Speaker 2: first executive producer there for the 1st 6 years. I mean, 958 00:48:04,016 --> 00:48:07,296 Speaker 2: he taught me more than just about anybody I've ever 959 00:48:07,296 --> 00:48:13,115 Speaker 2: worked with. So I walk away having had incredible experiences 960 00:48:13,536 --> 00:48:17,695 Speaker 2: and with a couple of really significant friendships that remain 961 00:48:17,694 --> 00:48:19,496 Speaker 2: to this day. Who remains? 962 00:48:21,194 --> 00:48:24,486 Speaker 2: I won't give them up because it probably makes it 963 00:48:24,486 --> 00:48:27,486 Speaker 2: easier for them, because I don't, I think there's a 964 00:48:27,486 --> 00:48:29,444 Speaker 2: legacy that I've got at Channel Nine that, 965 00:48:31,935 --> 00:48:33,225 Speaker 2: That, so I, I, 966 00:48:33,296 --> 00:48:33,945 Speaker 1: I'll give you 967 00:48:33,944 --> 00:48:35,575 Speaker 1: an example if you said who your close friends are 968 00:48:35,576 --> 00:48:38,475 Speaker 1: still at 9, it could make things difficult for them. 969 00:48:39,364 --> 00:48:41,526 Speaker 1: Yes. My last question. 970 00:48:42,605 --> 00:48:45,145 Speaker 1: Is not about TV it's about. 971 00:48:46,645 --> 00:48:49,085 Speaker 1: You were an editor at 21. You were the youngest 972 00:48:49,085 --> 00:48:52,325 Speaker 1: ever editor before or since, I think, of a mainstream magazine. 973 00:48:52,404 --> 00:48:56,355 Speaker 1: Not that there's many magazines left now, but I became 974 00:48:56,355 --> 00:48:59,924 Speaker 1: an editor at 25, and I thought that was really old, because, 975 00:49:00,725 --> 00:49:04,506 Speaker 1: how funny is that? Because you did it at 21. 976 00:49:04,964 --> 00:49:09,245 Speaker 1: I was the youngest editor of Cosmo at the time. Anyway, 977 00:49:09,364 --> 00:49:12,145 Speaker 1: you and I have both been the youngest in the room. 978 00:49:13,085 --> 00:49:15,465 Speaker 1: We're not the youngest in the room anymore, Lisa, we'll 979 00:49:15,464 --> 00:49:19,526 Speaker 1: consider ain't. I'm the oldest here at Mamma Mia. I 980 00:49:19,526 --> 00:49:22,125 Speaker 1: don't know if you're the oldest at the project, but. 981 00:49:22,806 --> 00:49:23,975 Speaker 2: Um, I probably am. 982 00:49:24,806 --> 00:49:27,455 Speaker 2: I love it when Barry Cassidy comes in. That's right. 983 00:49:28,125 --> 00:49:31,026 Speaker 1: A bit of crusty Barry to make you feel youthful. 984 00:49:31,884 --> 00:49:35,346 Speaker 1: How have you felt about milestone birthdays in an industry 985 00:49:35,346 --> 00:49:39,565 Speaker 1: that really judges women by how they look, and not 986 00:49:39,565 --> 00:49:41,805 Speaker 1: just TV but just being a woman in the public eye, 987 00:49:41,846 --> 00:49:43,346 Speaker 1: it's very hard to get older. 988 00:49:43,685 --> 00:49:44,705 Speaker 2: I've never found that. 989 00:49:45,556 --> 00:49:45,675 Speaker 1: I 990 00:49:45,674 --> 00:49:45,835 Speaker 2: mean, 991 00:49:45,955 --> 00:49:46,885 Speaker 1: I tell me more about that. 992 00:49:46,996 --> 00:49:51,205 Speaker 2: Well, I joined the Today Show in my late 40s, so. 993 00:49:52,286 --> 00:49:56,765 Speaker 2: Age doesn't mean anything to me other than how bloody 994 00:49:56,766 --> 00:50:00,915 Speaker 2: lucky am I to keep having birthdays. Yeah. Because we 995 00:50:00,915 --> 00:50:03,986 Speaker 2: all know too many women who don't get that option, 996 00:50:04,435 --> 00:50:09,185 Speaker 2: and I approach every year with nothing but gratitude that 997 00:50:09,286 --> 00:50:10,326 Speaker 2: I'm still here. 998 00:50:10,935 --> 00:50:14,215 Speaker 2: I'm still, you know, loving what I get to do 999 00:50:14,214 --> 00:50:17,535 Speaker 2: for work. I still adore my husband, I have 3 1000 00:50:17,536 --> 00:50:22,174 Speaker 2: healthy kids. I have nothing to complain about, but I 1001 00:50:22,174 --> 00:50:28,056 Speaker 2: have an incredibly rich tapestry of life experience. 1002 00:50:28,526 --> 00:50:30,996 Speaker 2: And that was the reason why I wrote the book. 1003 00:50:31,296 --> 00:50:34,455 Speaker 2: It wasn't meant to be like this. When I was 1004 00:50:34,455 --> 00:50:37,855 Speaker 2: growing up in the 60s, you know, girls, when they 1005 00:50:37,855 --> 00:50:40,374 Speaker 2: got married, which was around about the age of 23, 1006 00:50:40,415 --> 00:50:42,695 Speaker 2: and by 30 you'd probably have a few kids under 1007 00:50:42,694 --> 00:50:46,315 Speaker 2: the belt, and really your life's mission. 1008 00:50:47,165 --> 00:50:51,444 Speaker 2: Was not over, but it was certainly preset at that 1009 00:50:51,444 --> 00:50:53,826 Speaker 2: stage because your job was to bring up the kids, 1010 00:50:54,085 --> 00:50:57,445 Speaker 2: and when you got to about 50, and you can 1011 00:50:57,444 --> 00:51:00,526 Speaker 2: no longer reproduce and you can no longer, you know, 1012 00:51:00,924 --> 00:51:04,965 Speaker 2: employment would have been really difficult, you know, here I 1013 00:51:04,964 --> 00:51:09,864 Speaker 2: am at this age, still doing something that I absolutely love. 1014 00:51:10,415 --> 00:51:13,276 Speaker 2: It's just like I am so incredibly lucky. 1015 00:51:13,736 --> 00:51:18,145 Speaker 2: And if I don't put down all of the incredible 1016 00:51:18,145 --> 00:51:20,326 Speaker 2: things that have happened to me and all of those, 1017 00:51:21,486 --> 00:51:24,725 Speaker 2: Huge disappointments that have also happened to me and how 1018 00:51:24,725 --> 00:51:28,286 Speaker 2: I've just decided I'm just gonna pick myself up and 1019 00:51:28,286 --> 00:51:31,806 Speaker 2: I'm gonna keep going, and in many ways those girls 1020 00:51:31,806 --> 00:51:33,625 Speaker 2: that bullied me at school, 1021 00:51:35,705 --> 00:51:40,115 Speaker 2: Allowed me to teach myself resilience, that, 1022 00:51:42,475 --> 00:51:47,395 Speaker 2: If you don't define yourself by the way others look 1023 00:51:47,395 --> 00:51:52,315 Speaker 2: at you, then you're halfway to a happy life. Because 1024 00:51:52,326 --> 00:51:55,715 Speaker 2: we've all got to find it within ourselves, our day 1025 00:51:55,714 --> 00:51:59,096 Speaker 2: to day happiness, because we're the only ones living this life. 1026 00:51:59,516 --> 00:52:03,256 Speaker 2: I just believe in choosing happiness wherever I can find it. 1027 00:52:03,875 --> 00:52:07,296 Speaker 2: Being surrounded by people that I genuinely know value me 1028 00:52:07,296 --> 00:52:08,056 Speaker 2: and love me. 1029 00:52:08,746 --> 00:52:11,705 Speaker 2: It's interesting how you get a bit more choosy, the 1030 00:52:11,705 --> 00:52:16,455 Speaker 2: older you get. You understand the things in life that really, 1031 00:52:16,665 --> 00:52:21,625 Speaker 2: truly matter, and you make sure that you're living every 1032 00:52:21,625 --> 00:52:25,756 Speaker 2: day with purpose and with gratitude and, 1033 00:52:26,714 --> 00:52:30,174 Speaker 2: You know, if you can take on board new teachings. 1034 00:52:31,246 --> 00:52:33,526 Speaker 2: That's an incredible thing. I want to be an amazing 1035 00:52:33,526 --> 00:52:34,384 Speaker 2: 90 year old. 1036 00:52:36,214 --> 00:52:38,736 Speaker 2: I wanna be one of those crazy 90 year olds 1037 00:52:38,736 --> 00:52:40,475 Speaker 1: who's like Iris Apel. 1038 00:52:40,694 --> 00:52:44,296 Speaker 2: Yes, I wanna jump out of planes and just do 1039 00:52:44,296 --> 00:52:46,455 Speaker 2: everything that 90 year olds aren't meant to do. 1040 00:52:47,335 --> 00:52:48,705 Speaker 1: Let's go and get a tattoo. 1041 00:52:50,214 --> 00:52:53,415 Speaker 2: Now that's the one thing you know I won't do. I, 1042 00:52:53,536 --> 00:52:56,134 Speaker 2: I was appalled when you got a tattoo when you 1043 00:52:56,134 --> 00:52:56,286 Speaker 2: were working I'm gonna 1044 00:52:57,355 --> 00:53:00,125 Speaker 1: get another one. I'm gonna get another one just to 1045 00:53:00,125 --> 00:53:03,214 Speaker 2: my belly button ring ever? Did the hole ever close 1046 00:53:03,214 --> 00:53:03,374 Speaker 2: over? 1047 00:53:03,404 --> 00:53:05,355 Speaker 1: No, it got infected. I had to take it out. 1048 00:53:06,346 --> 00:53:08,614 Speaker 1: Australia is, is a better place having you in it. 1049 00:53:08,895 --> 00:53:11,355 Speaker 1: Australian women are lucky to have you. 1050 00:53:12,236 --> 00:53:15,835 Speaker 1: In the world, making the world a better place for us. 1051 00:53:16,776 --> 00:53:21,685 Speaker 1: And I feel lucky to call you a friend and 1052 00:53:22,364 --> 00:53:25,596 Speaker 1: You know, I'm one of many, many women who owe 1053 00:53:25,766 --> 00:53:28,776 Speaker 1: their careers to you, and I can't thank you enough. 1054 00:53:29,174 --> 00:53:29,856 Speaker 2: I love you. 1055 00:53:31,725 --> 00:53:33,864 Speaker 2: Don't do that to me because now I'm gonna cry. 1056 00:53:36,605 --> 00:53:40,986 Speaker 2: Can I, can I just say in return. 1057 00:53:42,654 --> 00:53:46,365 Speaker 2: One of the greatest joys of my life, and the 1058 00:53:46,364 --> 00:53:50,846 Speaker 2: greatest privileges of my life is to have had the 1059 00:53:50,846 --> 00:53:54,246 Speaker 2: opportunity to pay it forward, because when you know what 1060 00:53:54,246 --> 00:53:58,114 Speaker 2: it is, which I discovered really early in my career, 1061 00:53:58,915 --> 00:54:00,056 Speaker 2: The power 1062 00:54:00,815 --> 00:54:04,415 Speaker 2: That comes when somebody believes in you, at a time 1063 00:54:04,415 --> 00:54:07,895 Speaker 2: when you don't yet necessarily believe in yourself, in fact 1064 00:54:07,895 --> 00:54:10,776 Speaker 2: you might feel quite the opposite, but when you know 1065 00:54:10,776 --> 00:54:13,776 Speaker 2: what it is to have somebody believe in you and 1066 00:54:13,776 --> 00:54:17,016 Speaker 2: then experience that joy and want to prove to them 1067 00:54:17,016 --> 00:54:19,236 Speaker 2: that that was well placed belief. 1068 00:54:20,506 --> 00:54:22,746 Speaker 2: To then find yourself in a position to be able 1069 00:54:22,746 --> 00:54:27,424 Speaker 2: to pass that joy onto other young women, cause it's 1070 00:54:27,424 --> 00:54:29,634 Speaker 2: mostly been women that I've worked with over the years, 1071 00:54:29,705 --> 00:54:32,155 Speaker 2: there's been a few, few men along the way, and 1072 00:54:32,154 --> 00:54:35,874 Speaker 2: I've had great experiences with male colleagues and male bosses. 1073 00:54:36,194 --> 00:54:39,675 Speaker 2: You know, what happened at Channel Nine has not changed 1074 00:54:39,674 --> 00:54:43,114 Speaker 2: my view of the great men who are out there. 1075 00:54:44,065 --> 00:54:46,345 Speaker 2: And early in my career, it was mostly men that 1076 00:54:46,346 --> 00:54:50,555 Speaker 2: were giving me the opportunities. But to see what you 1077 00:54:50,556 --> 00:54:55,996 Speaker 2: have done with this media company, which I remember when 1078 00:54:55,996 --> 00:54:59,556 Speaker 2: you started this on your lounge room floor, and to 1079 00:54:59,556 --> 00:55:04,596 Speaker 2: see you encouraging young women in a way that has 1080 00:55:04,596 --> 00:55:11,154 Speaker 2: built so many careers, that's the power of positive female energy. 1081 00:55:11,694 --> 00:55:15,364 Speaker 2: And, you know, every time I see you push another 1082 00:55:15,746 --> 00:55:18,725 Speaker 2: little bird out of the nest and encourage it to fly, 1083 00:55:19,266 --> 00:55:21,465 Speaker 2: I take great joy out of that. 1084 00:55:21,625 --> 00:55:22,725 Speaker 1: I learnt from the best. 1085 00:55:24,276 --> 00:55:25,276 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 1086 00:55:28,776 --> 00:55:33,175 Speaker 1: I could have talked to Lisa for 100 years. She 1087 00:55:33,174 --> 00:55:36,975 Speaker 1: does love a good conversation. She is a great person 1088 00:55:36,975 --> 00:55:40,815 Speaker 1: to talk to about anything. And in fact, when we 1089 00:55:40,815 --> 00:55:44,655 Speaker 1: left the studio, we went and sat outside in the 1090 00:55:44,654 --> 00:55:46,975 Speaker 1: kitchen area at Mamma Mia, and no one else is 1091 00:55:46,975 --> 00:55:50,455 Speaker 1: in the office at the moment. And as the sun 1092 00:55:50,455 --> 00:55:54,135 Speaker 1: went down, we talked for another hour, at least. And 1093 00:55:54,134 --> 00:55:56,694 Speaker 1: in the end, I had to say, babe, I've got 1094 00:55:56,694 --> 00:55:57,435 Speaker 1: to go home. 1095 00:55:58,036 --> 00:56:02,326 Speaker 1: There is just so much to talk about. And there 1096 00:56:02,326 --> 00:56:04,846 Speaker 1: were lots of things that we didn't even touch in 1097 00:56:04,846 --> 00:56:07,395 Speaker 1: these two episodes that you will read about in the book, 1098 00:56:07,565 --> 00:56:12,515 Speaker 1: about her magazine career, about her role as a mother, 1099 00:56:12,924 --> 00:56:17,286 Speaker 1: about having three incredible children, about her marriage. Oh, we 1100 00:56:17,286 --> 00:56:20,806 Speaker 1: could've done a whole other episode just talking about her 1101 00:56:20,806 --> 00:56:24,935 Speaker 1: marriage to Peter Fitzsimons. You know, when I interviewed Pete 1102 00:56:24,935 --> 00:56:26,944 Speaker 1: on this podcast a few years ago, 1103 00:56:27,375 --> 00:56:29,565 Speaker 1: I asked him about his marriage to Lisa, because I 1104 00:56:29,565 --> 00:56:32,806 Speaker 1: knew everybody would be curious about that, and he said 1105 00:56:32,806 --> 00:56:37,335 Speaker 1: something which ended up making national news. He said, we 1106 00:56:37,335 --> 00:56:42,526 Speaker 1: have 50 blissful days, 300 pretty good days, and 15 shockers. 1107 00:56:42,815 --> 00:56:45,095 Speaker 1: And I wanted to ask her what those shockers were like. 1108 00:56:45,455 --> 00:56:48,455 Speaker 1: She talks about her marriage and being married to the 1109 00:56:48,455 --> 00:56:49,675 Speaker 1: same man for 1110 00:56:50,236 --> 00:56:53,256 Speaker 1: Oh, what would it be now? Close to 30 years 1111 00:56:53,556 --> 00:56:57,395 Speaker 1: in the book. It is a tour de force, this book, honestly, 1112 00:56:57,556 --> 00:56:59,996 Speaker 1: I don't know, it spans so much. It's about magazines, 1113 00:57:00,076 --> 00:57:03,256 Speaker 1: it's about women, it's about generations of women in Australia. 1114 00:57:03,475 --> 00:57:05,395 Speaker 1: It is an epic, epic book. 1115 00:57:06,165 --> 00:57:08,364 Speaker 1: It wasn't meant to be like this by Lisa Wilkinson, 1116 00:57:08,424 --> 00:57:11,806 Speaker 1: it's published by HarperCollins and is available for pre-order now 1117 00:57:11,806 --> 00:57:14,346 Speaker 1: from Booktopia. We'll put a link in the show notes. 1118 00:57:14,846 --> 00:57:17,526 Speaker 1: The assistant producer of No Filter is Lucy Neville, the 1119 00:57:17,526 --> 00:57:21,405 Speaker 1: executive producer is Eliza Ratliff. I'm Mia Friedman and I'll 1120 00:57:21,405 --> 00:57:22,845 Speaker 1: see you on Mamma Mia. 1121 00:57:23,705 --> 00:57:25,836 Speaker 1: And if you're after something else to listen to, you 1122 00:57:25,836 --> 00:57:28,836 Speaker 1: might wanna listen to our new podcast. It's been topping 1123 00:57:28,836 --> 00:57:32,435 Speaker 1: the charts. It's been very, very well received. Everyone's talking 1124 00:57:32,435 --> 00:57:34,365 Speaker 1: about it. It's called What Are You Wearing, and it 1125 00:57:34,365 --> 00:57:37,475 Speaker 1: is the first podcast for your wardrobe. You can find 1126 00:57:37,475 --> 00:57:39,016 Speaker 1: it wherever you get your podcasts.