Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 1: judge me on what I do. I don't label myself
Speaker 1: a lot of things, but it doesn't mean that I'm
Speaker 1: how unhappy or uncomfortable if other people say, Oh, Julie
Speaker 1: is a feminist because she supports equal opportunity and gender equality.
Speaker 1: What about? Look at what I do as opposed to
Speaker 1: how I self describe
Speaker 2: from Mamma Mia, I'm Mia Freedman and you're listening to
Speaker 2: no filter
Speaker 2: counted conversations that count.
Speaker 2: Julie Bishop hasn't been a private citizen for 20 years,
Speaker 2: but a few hours after this interview was recorded,
Speaker 2: that changed because an election was called
Speaker 2: as the member for curtain. She had been the deputy
Speaker 2: leader of the Liberal Party for 11 years under three
Speaker 2: different leaders, and for the past few years she'd been
Speaker 2: the foreign minister of Australia.
Speaker 2: She was the first woman to serve in either of
Speaker 2: those roles, and people on all sides pretty much agree
Speaker 2: that she did a kick ass job.
Speaker 2: There was terrorist attacks, Bali executions, the shooting down of
Speaker 2: Malaysian Airlines flight MH 17, an Ebola outbreak and, of course,
Speaker 2: a few rounds of prime ministerial musical chairs. Isn't that
Speaker 2: a fun game?
Speaker 2: She is a woman who loves fashion as much as politics.
Speaker 2: And she sees no problem when the two things collide.
Speaker 2: Like that time, she wore a pair of tailored shorts
Speaker 2: with a matching jacket to meet with the mayor of London.
Speaker 2: Well, the killer Red Heels with sparkles she wore on
Speaker 2: the day she announced she would be stepping down as
Speaker 2: foreign minister and moving to the back bench,
Speaker 2: you might remember that difficult decision came after a particularly
Speaker 2: bruising episode of the Parliament House reality show, where the
Speaker 2: Liberal Party decided to play Knife the leader yet again.
Speaker 2: When Malcolm Turnbull stood down, Julie put up her hand
Speaker 2: to run for PM along with Scott Morrison and Peter Dutton.
Speaker 2: But she was knocked out fairly brutally in the first
Speaker 2: round as a result of some pretty disappointing backroom deals
Speaker 2: that we all learned about via a leaked group chat
Speaker 2: between many of her fellow MPs.
Speaker 2: It was messy and disloyal
Speaker 2: and a deeply anti climactic end to a glittering career
Speaker 2: in politics.
Speaker 2: Not that Julie ever said that publicly. None of it.
Speaker 2: She's worked through some of Australia's ugliest moments, both in
Speaker 2: Canberra and around the world, with her signature class and style.
Speaker 2: She's always always toed the party line,
Speaker 2: but now
Speaker 2: she doesn't have to.
Speaker 2: Now she can say whatever she wants. However she wants
Speaker 2: to hear is Julie Bishop
Speaker 2: Julie. We're both sitting here in our white shirts. We're
Speaker 2: all sitting here. Actually, everyone in the studio is wearing
Speaker 2: a white shirt. What's the significance
Speaker 1: today? We launched the 2019
Speaker 1: white shirt campaign and which we donate 100% of the
Speaker 1: gross proceeds of the sale of white shirts to ovarian
Speaker 1: cancer Research and the foundation set up to
Speaker 1: develop an early stage detection test because there isn't one
Speaker 1: for ovarian cancer because there's no early symptoms, no warning.
Speaker 1: Most women are diagnosed at advanced stages, and so the
Speaker 1: death rate is high compared with other cancers.
Speaker 2: Compared to, say, when you first came into Parliament in
Speaker 2: 1998 how much more understanding and awareness around women's health
Speaker 2: issues Do you think there is in Canberra
Speaker 1: these days so much more? It's a dramatic difference,
Speaker 1: and it's taken some rather tragic events, like the death
Speaker 1: of Senator Jeannie Ferris. She died of ovarian cancer
Speaker 1: to really focus people's attention on it. That's why it's
Speaker 1: so important to have more women in Parliament, more women
Speaker 1: in the decision making forums around the world because we
Speaker 1: do have a different experience, a different perspective. And issues
Speaker 1: like women's health
Speaker 1: are raised by women. Men, of course, understand. But in
Speaker 1: terms of a priority,
Speaker 1: women's health has tended to be a secondary issue. Now
Speaker 1: it's a primary issue. It's a priority, and I was
Speaker 1: delighted to see the government provide more money. In fact,
Speaker 1: I think since we came to office, about 33 million
Speaker 1: had been dedicated to ovarian cancer research. And that's why
Speaker 1: I'm so keen to do more. The government can't do
Speaker 1: it all.
Speaker 1: The community also has to
Speaker 1: dig in and support women who have this cancer.
Speaker 2: What's life like on the outside? Now
Speaker 2: I noticed you said, Way
Speaker 2: is that Is that going to take a while to change?
Speaker 1: I guess it will. I've been in politics for 20
Speaker 1: years now, so I've been saying we for a very
Speaker 1: long time, sort of like the royal family we
Speaker 1: But I had my last day in Parliament,
Speaker 1: and it was a mix of emotions, sadness, pride, relief
Speaker 1: and excitement about what may lie ahead. So I had
Speaker 1: a 20 year legal career, a 20 year political career.
Speaker 1: Now I'm looking for another 20 year career in a
Speaker 1: whole range of different areas.
Speaker 2: You mentioned a lot of emotions that you had on
Speaker 2: that last day, and I watched your speech and I
Speaker 2: watched it again today before you came in.
Speaker 1: It has been an immense honor
Speaker 1: to be the longest serving member for Curtain
Speaker 1: and also to be the deputy leader of the Liberal Party,
Speaker 1: the first female to hold the role for 11 years,
Speaker 1: over half my entire political career.
Speaker 1: And I'm also proud of the fact that I am
Speaker 1: the first woman to contest the leadership ballot of the
Speaker 1: Liberal Party in its 75 year history.
Speaker 2: And
Speaker 2: I felt better
Speaker 2: when I watched you. You would never say that because
Speaker 2: you're far too classy. But I watched that and I
Speaker 2: felt angry, and I felt resentful. And I felt beat
Speaker 2: up that
Speaker 2: you are such an extraordinary woman, and you would have
Speaker 2: made such an extraordinary prime minister and you never got
Speaker 2: that chance.
Speaker 1: My opportunity came in unexpected circumstances last year. I would
Speaker 1: never have challenged a leader from the position as deputy
Speaker 1: and so I served under a number of leaders. But
Speaker 1: when
Speaker 1: circumstances changed, to the extent that Malcolm Turnbull wasn't going
Speaker 1: to run again
Speaker 1: and there were two candidates in Peter Dutton and Scott Morrison,
Speaker 1: I felt a real responsibility to put my name forward.
Speaker 1: So the party room had other options, and I've been
Speaker 1: the deputy for 11 years, and I've been foreign minister
Speaker 1: for five years. I've been a Cabinet minister under John
Speaker 1: Howard under Tony Abbott under
Speaker 1: Malcolm Turnbull. So I thought I had the experience. And obviously,
Speaker 1: you don't put your name forward if you think you're
Speaker 1: going to lose. Nor do you put your name forward
Speaker 1: if you think you'd lose the election.
Speaker 1: So
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 1: put my hand up
Speaker 1: the party room obviously saw otherwise, and I respect that.
Speaker 1: I've been a member of that party room for 20 years,
Speaker 1: so you have to respect the views of your colleagues.
Speaker 1: But I thought that
Speaker 1: that then made me reassess how much longer I wanted
Speaker 1: to be in politics.
Speaker 1: And so I didn't cause a by election. I stayed.
Speaker 1: I went on to the back bench and let the
Speaker 1: new team get on with
Speaker 1: being the new government.
Speaker 1: And then over that period of time, I thought long
Speaker 1: and hard about what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1: And then I met a number of people who said
Speaker 1: that if I were not standing at the next election,
Speaker 1: they would run for the seat of curtain. And I thought,
Speaker 1: Now is the time to leave. So it's a time
Speaker 1: of my choosing on my terms,
Speaker 1: and there's no point in feeling bitter. You just have
Speaker 1: to be positive about the future. And so I don't
Speaker 1: look back. I don't do regrets. I don't do recrimination.
Speaker 1: I just say, Okay, now it's time for the next
Speaker 1: chapter
Speaker 2: you've been through. You've been in Parliament through I think
Speaker 2: it's five leadership changes or changes of prime minister in
Speaker 2: the system. Yes, there's so many. I've spoken to a
Speaker 2: lot of journalists about what that time is like around
Speaker 2: a leadership change and spills. What's it like when you're inside?
Speaker 2: What's it like when it's happening to people who are
Speaker 2: your colleagues and your friends and you're involved?
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 1: I witnessed it first on the Labour side when Kevin
Speaker 1: was challenged by Julia Gillard, and it was
Speaker 1: morbidly fascinating to watch a party tear itself apart.
Speaker 1: I did never think it would happen to us because
Speaker 1: I assume that I've done it again us,
Speaker 1: because I assume that it took such a toll on
Speaker 1: the Labour Party.
Speaker 1: But then they changed again. They got rid of Julia
Speaker 1: Gillard and installed Kevin, so it became the norm. It
Speaker 1: set a benchmark
Speaker 1: and very low benchmark indeed. And then
Speaker 1: I served under Tony Abbott. He was our leader into
Speaker 1: the 2000 and 13
Speaker 1: election that we won.
Speaker 1: And then over time I saw that he was losing
Speaker 1: the support of the party room
Speaker 1: and in our political system in the Liberal Party, the
Speaker 1: leader is chosen by the party room,
Speaker 1: and that can be frustrating for the wider public because
Speaker 1: they say, Well, I voted
Speaker 1: in the Liberal Party because I wanted to see X
Speaker 1: y Z as the prime minister,
Speaker 1: and then the party room says, Well, we don't want
Speaker 1: to work with this person anymore and without going to
Speaker 1: an election will change leaders
Speaker 1: that does cause instability. Being on the inside. It's a
Speaker 1: very emotional time
Speaker 1: because people are pitted against each other. It's very adversarial.
Speaker 1: Competitive
Speaker 1: things are said. That shouldn't be said. Things are done
Speaker 1: that shouldn't be done. So there's a lot of turmoil involved,
Speaker 1: which is why I recommend that parties give up changing
Speaker 1: leaders between elections. Unless there's a very valid,
Speaker 1: cogent, coherent reason to do so.
Speaker 2: Some very close relationships must be formed. You know, when
Speaker 2: you're in a party for 20 years,
Speaker 2: how do people process the betrayal that comes around? These
Speaker 2: leadership changes and spills because it's like you got to
Speaker 2: pick a side and it's like I thought you were
Speaker 2: with me and maybe you said you were with me,
Speaker 2: but then you weren't with me.
Speaker 2: There was some text messages and WhatsApp Group that you
Speaker 2: found out about afterwards that must have been absolutely devastating
Speaker 2: on a bunch of levels.
Speaker 2: Does it make you question who really, ever was your
Speaker 2: friend or colleague?
Speaker 1: Or sadly, Politics has a name for that,
Speaker 1: for betrayal, for conflict between people who
Speaker 1: others presumed with colleagues or, indeed, they may well have
Speaker 1: presumed it. Was it Paul Keating. That said, If you
Speaker 1: want a friend in politics by a dog, there's a
Speaker 1: certain amount of truth in that, but I've also made
Speaker 1: friends in politics that I suspect will be friends for life.
Speaker 1: It's difficult
Speaker 1: and it takes you some time to understand that this
Speaker 1: is the way it's played.
Speaker 1: But of course you can still be hurt and frustrated
Speaker 1: and angry. But there's no point, because that's the way
Speaker 1: it is. And
Speaker 1: politics
Speaker 1: in Australia has been a system
Speaker 1: built
Speaker 1: by men because for the last 100 years since federation,
Speaker 1: the majority of parliamentarians have been
Speaker 1: male and so it's very adversarial and it reflects the
Speaker 1: way men see the world. It's only in more recent
Speaker 1: years that women have become involved in politics, so the
Speaker 1: culture is very male,
Speaker 1: and I think that that has
Speaker 1: a fair amount to do with it.
Speaker 2: You said. You've been in cabinets where there are a
Speaker 2: number of women and when you've been the only woman,
Speaker 2: and you said that you've noticed that the behavior of
Speaker 2: the Cabinet is very different.
Speaker 2: Can you explain the differences
Speaker 1: well, I think a number of women would relate to
Speaker 1: this if they have been the only woman in a
Speaker 1: boardroom or in a meeting, and I was in cabinet.
Speaker 1: If you're the only female voice in a room of, say,
Speaker 1: 2030 males.
Speaker 1: They tend not to hear you.
Speaker 1: I called it gender deafness,
Speaker 1: and I don't know what it is, but you struggled
Speaker 1: to be heard, even if what you're saying is original
Speaker 1: or different or controversial,
Speaker 1: outrageous. Even
Speaker 1: there seems to be a
Speaker 1: glossing over and they move on to the next opinion.
Speaker 1: And then somebody can say precisely what you said
Speaker 1: and the men were. So yeah, that's a good idea.
Speaker 1: Let's go with X Y Z view.
Speaker 1: And yet, when other women are around the room, women
Speaker 1: tend to. Most women tend to support the other woman, saying,
Speaker 1: Hang on, Did you just hear what she said
Speaker 1: and bring attention to it?
Speaker 1: I also think that
Speaker 1: women's perspectives are so important
Speaker 1: and you have to have more women around these
Speaker 1: boardroom tables and cabinet tables and decision making forums.
Speaker 1: They bring a different perspective, a different view, a different
Speaker 1: experience
Speaker 1: and without over generalizing. Women do have different leadership style
Speaker 1: to men they do. We're much more
Speaker 1: transformational were much more focused on the impact on the
Speaker 1: individual we build. What do
Speaker 2: you mean by transformational?
Speaker 1: Well, we build teams by working with individuals whereas men
Speaker 1: a much more transactional the teams put together. They hold
Speaker 1: the team to account
Speaker 1: the far less empathetic to the individual needs, whereas women
Speaker 1: focused very much on
Speaker 1: the empathy behind what's happening.
Speaker 2: Emotional intelligence,
Speaker 1: all of the situation. And I've seen it, not just
Speaker 1: in politics. I've seen it in many scenarios. I was
Speaker 1: partner in a major law firm for many years, and
Speaker 1: at one point I was the only female in the
Speaker 1: partnership meetings.
Speaker 1: And women do bring a different perspective now. It's not
Speaker 1: one or the other. You need both. They complement each other.
Speaker 1: And that's why I'm speaking about encouraging more women to
Speaker 1: come into Parliament. The processes will be different. The outcomes
Speaker 1: will be better. Corporate. See this now? It's not just
Speaker 1: the right thing to do. It's a smart thing to do.
Speaker 1: Corporations can see that if you have more women in
Speaker 1: decision making positions, your bottom line is going to be
Speaker 1: better
Speaker 2: because smart business isn't it, absolutely. And it can also
Speaker 2: be transformational for society when it comes to government. You know,
Speaker 2: we were just talking about $30 million going to endometriosis
Speaker 2: and ovarian cancer.
Speaker 2: You would ask I imagine 100 men and probably 90
Speaker 2: of them wouldn't be able to even tell you anything
Speaker 2: about those two. Things probably wouldn't even know it. Endometriosis
Speaker 2: was
Speaker 1: exactly. And so you do need women around the table
Speaker 1: around the table to explain some of these issues and say, Well, actually,
Speaker 1: this is an issue that women feel strongly about.
Speaker 1: And unless a man has a very strong female in
Speaker 1: his life, he may well not know about it. So
Speaker 1: it's just common sense reflecting community concerns. And 50% of
Speaker 1: our population is female.
Speaker 2: 44% of Labour Party MPs are women,
Speaker 2: 18% of Liberal Party MPs are women.
Speaker 2: And yet quotas is a dirty word and all the
Speaker 2: men are there by merit. Of course, we know that
Speaker 2: you don't have to toe that line anymore. How do
Speaker 2: you really feel about
Speaker 1: that? I really feel that we do need targets that
Speaker 1: are taken seriously.
Speaker 2: What's the difference between target and quote?
Speaker 1: Unquote? It's mandatory, and labour don't actually adhere to a quota.
Speaker 1: They say they do, but they don't. I've seen
Speaker 1: when it's a woman's turn to be pre selected for
Speaker 1: a seat, but There is a former union boss who's
Speaker 1: looking for that seat and they'll take it so it's
Speaker 1: not actually
Speaker 2: targets give you a bit more wriggle room. It's like
Speaker 2: this is our intention.
Speaker 1: Don't hold us to it. But no, but targets taken
Speaker 1: seriously have a great
Speaker 1: effect. I've seen it. We did it in the Turnbull
Speaker 1: cabinet when we decided to make it a 50% target
Speaker 1: for all government board positions. And there are thousands of
Speaker 1: positions in
Speaker 1: statutory bodies and agencies and government councils that the federal
Speaker 1: government appoints.
Speaker 1: And we were at about maybe 40% or something, and
Speaker 1: we made a concerted effort. We set a target of 50%
Speaker 1: and just after I left Cabinet, we hit 50%.
Speaker 1: What it does is it makes people much more aware
Speaker 1: of the responsibility to find more women.
Speaker 1: And so if a Cabinet minister came in with four
Speaker 1: names for a position, and none of them are, women
Speaker 1: would say, Go away and find some women and it
Speaker 1: means they have to work harder. The women are there.
Speaker 1: It's not about competence or merit or qualifications. The women
Speaker 1: are there, they're willing, but you have to dig a
Speaker 1: little bit deeper and often ask,
Speaker 1: because women are very reluctant to put themselves forward.
Speaker 1: Very reluctant to say I'm up for this
Speaker 1: and so often I found, you know, I had to
Speaker 1: make a number of appointments. I would ring a woman
Speaker 1: and say, I love you to go on X y
Speaker 1: z board and they'd say, Oh, do you think I'm
Speaker 1: right for it? A man would never ask you that
Speaker 1: and say yes or no whether they want it or not.
Speaker 1: But women say
Speaker 1: a little bit concerned that they might not have the qualifications,
Speaker 1: they might not be up to the mark. So that's
Speaker 1: why it's important for other women to support women into
Speaker 1: these roles. So targets work the Liberal Party as a
Speaker 1: way to go. And I've been part of a new
Speaker 1: group in Western Australia called Emergent Women,
Speaker 1: where we have gone out and identify young women between
Speaker 1: about the ages of 25 40
Speaker 1: in business in community groups in the professions, and asked
Speaker 1: them to come along to a few events. They don't
Speaker 1: have to join the Liberal Party, just come along and
Speaker 1: be part of
Speaker 1: debates on policy issues on matters of concern to them.
Speaker 1: And we are building a pool of women so that
Speaker 1: when a pre selection comes up, you actually have a
Speaker 1: pool to draw from a pipeline of women who would
Speaker 1: be ready, mentored, hopefully into what it's like to be
Speaker 1: a politician.
Speaker 2: It must be a pretty hard ask, though, trying to
Speaker 2: convince women to come along and be part of the
Speaker 2: Liberal Party. Given the last year given we've seen Kelly
Speaker 2: Dwyer leave with ST Julia Banks claim that she was
Speaker 2: bullied and and a small is also that that she
Speaker 2: was subject to bullying.
Speaker 2: You were treated really shabbily,
Speaker 2: I believe and left.
Speaker 2: Why
Speaker 2: would women want to join a party that seems to
Speaker 2: have such, in some cases, open contempt for women? And
Speaker 2: that's certainly even at best does not seem to be
Speaker 2: a place where a woman could thrive in a political career. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't accept your characterization. I was the deputy leader
Speaker 1: of the party
Speaker 1: for 11 years, reelected time and time again by my colleagues,
Speaker 1: so they had faith in me as the deputy
Speaker 1: and I was appointed to my dream job, which was
Speaker 1: Minister for foreign affairs. I couldn't have been more honored
Speaker 1: and privileged
Speaker 1: in a role. And so from my point of view,
Speaker 1: women have achieved some great things in the Liberal Party.
Speaker 1: What we need to do is encourage young people to
Speaker 1: be interested in public office generally that men and women,
Speaker 1: because politicians tend to be,
Speaker 1: um,
Speaker 1: on the nose, condemned roundly for whatever they do, whether
Speaker 1: they're doing good things or bad things. And as a class, though,
Speaker 1: they are not highly regarded. And so
Speaker 1: it is one of the most important jobs in the country.
Speaker 1: You're a legislator. You're part of making the laws that
Speaker 1: affect our lives. So we want high quality people, people
Speaker 1: who represent the broad spectrum of the Australian community interested
Speaker 1: in public life. So I see it as a responsibility
Speaker 1: of all politicians to encourage
Speaker 1: more people
Speaker 1: to consider
Speaker 1: public office as part of their career path.
Speaker 2: I don't want to do the gotcha thing and ask
Speaker 2: you the question about feminism, but I also kind of
Speaker 2: do not in a gotcha way. But I'm just in 2016,
Speaker 2: you were asked, Are you feminist and you kind of
Speaker 2: it's become this thing are your feminist, are your feminist.
Speaker 2: And you said at the time
Speaker 2: I'm from Western Australia and the foreign minister.
Speaker 2: I'm a liberal, but other than that, I'm not really
Speaker 2: into labels. Other people can call me what they want.
Speaker 2: Is that still your view?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't understand why people keep asking me with
Speaker 1: the greatest respect.
Speaker 1: Judge me on what I do. I don't label myself
Speaker 1: a lot of things,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean that I'm how unhappy or uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: If other people say, Oh, Julie is a feminist because
Speaker 1: she supports equal opportunity and gender equality. What about? Look
Speaker 1: at what I do and as opposed to how I
Speaker 1: self described.
Speaker 1: It's just not a label I've ever attached to myself.
Speaker 1: And if I started doing it now, I think it
Speaker 1: would be
Speaker 1: lacking in authenticity. So the media, it's kind of a
Speaker 1: game now. I'm not on my part, but the media say,
Speaker 1: Are you yet feminist? And I keep saying we'll have
Speaker 1: a look at what I do. I support women. I
Speaker 1: focus on gender equality. I put
Speaker 1: general quality at the heart of our foreign policy. I
Speaker 1: directed our aid budget
Speaker 1: to ensuring that it had a positive impact on women
Speaker 1: and girls.
Speaker 1: The empowerment of women and girls was a key theme
Speaker 1: of my foreign Ministry. So
Speaker 2: you have been and remain such a role model for
Speaker 2: so many years in and out of
Speaker 1: politics, not get hung up on labels. The reason I
Speaker 1: said I'm a liberal Lima with Australian as, um, somebody
Speaker 1: put to me, but we don't know. We don't know
Speaker 1: enough about you. If you don't call yourself a feminist,
Speaker 1: how do we know who you are? And I said, Well,
Speaker 1: I can tell you I'm a liberal, so that tells
Speaker 1: you my political views. I'm always Australian that tells you
Speaker 1: where I'm from. Um, I've been a lawyer, and now
Speaker 1: I'm a politician That tells you what I do. So
Speaker 1: I was basically saying, You don't need labels. Just have
Speaker 1: a look at what I do.
Speaker 2: What you do is beyond reproach in terms of equality.
Speaker 2: But when you say I'm a liberal and that's a
Speaker 2: word that describes my politics describes me. Isn't feminism also
Speaker 2: that I guess I call myself a feminist to say
Speaker 2: to describe the fact that equality, gender equality and is
Speaker 2: at the forefront of who I am and what I
Speaker 2: stand for.
Speaker 1: People can call themselves whatever they like. I'm perfectly relaxed.
Speaker 1: I don't demand that other people call themselves this, that
Speaker 1: or the other. And I don't see why people should
Speaker 1: demand of me that I self described in a way
Speaker 1: that
Speaker 1: doesn't reflect my thinking. My thinking is, as a liberal,
Speaker 1: I'm into
Speaker 1: individual freedom and choice, and that, to me,
Speaker 1: is about
Speaker 1: gender equality, the freedom to choose the freedom to be.
Speaker 1: And that's what I've sought to achieve in my time
Speaker 1: as a as a legislator, somebody who
Speaker 1: help make decisions on behalf of the Australian public.
Speaker 2: I guess the reason people say Has it changed? Has
Speaker 2: it changed? You know, I watched John Howard being interviewed
Speaker 2: at the end of last year and had again just
Speaker 2: saying its merit. We don't need quotas. We don't need anything.
Speaker 2: It should just be Merritt, Merritt, Merritt, Merritt Merritt And
Speaker 2: I don't know. I suppose the perception that you would
Speaker 2: maybe be frustrated with that argument and not necessarily agree
Speaker 2: with that,
Speaker 1: But that's why I've been talking about targets. I've seen quotas,
Speaker 1: not work. I've seen the perverse impact of quotas where
Speaker 1: people have been appointed because they had to because there's
Speaker 1: a quota. And that's not the right outcome either. Nobody
Speaker 1: wants to say I'm there because they needed to fill
Speaker 1: a quota.
Speaker 1: No, man, no woman wants to say that. I would
Speaker 1: have thought so.
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah,
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: When you were foreign Minister, you spent 50% of your
Speaker 2: time overseas. 25% in Canberra in 25% in
Speaker 1: that right? I think it's about that. Yeah, that's right,
Speaker 2: I imagine.
Speaker 1: Or maybe it was a third. A third, a third? No,
Speaker 1: two thirds. One third
Speaker 1: between Canberra and the rest of the country. I imagine
Speaker 2: you probably spent about 30% of your time on a plane.
Speaker 1: I did a lot of time. Did sleep overnight many
Speaker 1: times on a plane. You must have become a
Speaker 2: very good flyer. What was your routine?
Speaker 1: Well, I just didn't have the luxury of jet lag.
Speaker 1: You just couldn't do it because
Speaker 1: I would fly when parliament wasn't sitting. And not many
Speaker 1: foreign ministers have had to be in a parliament where
Speaker 1: you had to be present. We didn't have a majority.
Speaker 1: And so you couldn't miss it. We had a we
Speaker 1: had a one seat majority at one point and then
Speaker 1: listen that
Speaker 1: and so I had to be there for votes. I
Speaker 1: was also the deputy leader, which meant I had to
Speaker 1: fill in for the prime minister and had a lot
Speaker 1: of demands across the country. And so when I went
Speaker 1: overseas we had to be as effective and as efficient
Speaker 1: as possible. So
Speaker 1: we often flew overnight from country to country, not sleeping
Speaker 1: in hotels and sleeping on the plane
Speaker 1: and then getting back and starting a full day. So
Speaker 1: you didn't have days off in between to recover. So
Speaker 1: I decided that I couldn't do. Jet lag would have
Speaker 1: to get rid of that, not an option. And I
Speaker 1: would always try and
Speaker 1: get some sleep on the plane.
Speaker 1: Always start the day with a run. Didn't matter what
Speaker 1: time I got in the night before or even early morning.
Speaker 1: I tricked my body into thinking it's 5:30 a.m. Time
Speaker 1: for run and I would run great for the endorphins
Speaker 1: and that's a really good way to start the day.
Speaker 1: But it also got you into the routine of the day,
Speaker 1: and that's important.
Speaker 2: How do you know?
Speaker 1: I don't think about what time it is back home.
Speaker 1: Where to
Speaker 2: run, like how does that work? I noticed two things. Firstly,
Speaker 2: you always seem to be running with purpose. Even if
Speaker 2: I imagine you'd wake up some days and not even
Speaker 2: know where you were, So does someone map out the
Speaker 2: route for you? And I also noticed that you don't
Speaker 2: tend to run with earbuds or earphones in.
Speaker 1: Well,
Speaker 1: if I were traveling overseas, the embassy and the Department
Speaker 1: of Foreign Affairs and Trade would put together my
Speaker 1: itinerary, my schedule for the day, and they would include
Speaker 1: at my request, they would include a morning run,
Speaker 1: and so my security detail would work that out in
Speaker 1: advance and they would check out the places to run
Speaker 1: and not run. I remember one day we were running
Speaker 1: through the traffic in Jakarta, and the federal police officer
Speaker 1: with me said this wasn't my idea. I didn't want
Speaker 1: you running through the traffic, so I didn't always take
Speaker 1: their advice, but they would work out a route.
Speaker 1: And depending upon how much time I had, we would
Speaker 1: run half an hour an hour,
Speaker 1: and I find you
Speaker 2: very fit people to be your security detail. How did
Speaker 2: that work?
Speaker 1: They came to that conclusion after I left one of
Speaker 1: the federal police officers. I shouldn't say they should have
Speaker 1: a long way behind. And I had to run back
Speaker 1: and get him. And I thought, This is This isn't
Speaker 1: the way it's meant to work. Is it
Speaker 2: job for everybody having to. So they
Speaker 1: So they did get to a point where they would
Speaker 1: ask for volunteers. So I knew
Speaker 1: that whoever was coming running would be able to last
Speaker 1: the distance. How far
Speaker 2: would you run every morning,
Speaker 1: Somewhere between six and 10. Case.
Speaker 2: And do you have a rhythm with that? You don't
Speaker 2: listen to me.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't I don't. I like to be
Speaker 1: very aware of my surroundings. And particularly when I was
Speaker 1: running in exotic places overseas, I wanted to absorb the
Speaker 1: sounds and smells and and the visual, um,
Speaker 1: observations were so important to me. And because so often
Speaker 1: we were in a place
Speaker 1: that would mean come in from the airport. I'd say
Speaker 1: in a hotel I'd go to a conference. I get
Speaker 1: back in the car, go back to the
Speaker 1: airport. I wouldn't see the city. So the run in
Speaker 1: the morning was an opportunity for me to get the
Speaker 1: vibe of the place. And I tell you, there's nothing
Speaker 1: more exciting than running through the streets of New York
Speaker 1: at 5 30 AM, when the street cleaners are there
Speaker 1: and the people are just opening up their stores and
Speaker 1: whether it was whether it was
Speaker 1: in Suva or Port Moresby or Mumbai, I would always
Speaker 1: run around a part of the city to get the
Speaker 1: feeling of it. And it was fantastic.
Speaker 2: Treadmill girl?
Speaker 1: No, not at all. If I can run outside, I'll
Speaker 1: be outside a gym as a last option,
Speaker 2: with all the work you have to do as foreign
Speaker 2: minister and as a politician in general, but particularly the
Speaker 2: foreign minister. A lot of dinners, state dinners, banquets, 10
Speaker 2: course meals, plain food,
Speaker 2: I imagine hotel
Speaker 1: rooms. How
Speaker 2: did you plan that part of your life? Just the
Speaker 2: eating part and a lot of time. I imagine you
Speaker 2: wouldn't have control necessarily over what you ate.
Speaker 1: It's very interesting. I should write a book on the
Speaker 1: banquettes I've attended. Uh, it was a challenge because you
Speaker 1: don't want to offend your hosts.
Speaker 1: And I think the key to it is just eat
Speaker 1: small portions of all of it. Try a bit of
Speaker 1: everything
Speaker 1: and don't overdo the desert. But I say that it's
Speaker 1: just I'm just saying it. Don't overdo the desert. I've
Speaker 1: got the sweet tooth from
Speaker 1: hell. I really do. I love chocolate,
Speaker 1: but I would just try and be careful, and then
Speaker 1: sometimes I would fast on the plane. I wouldn't eat
Speaker 1: on a plane, and then I wouldn't feel so guilty
Speaker 1: about
Speaker 1: having to sit through a five course meal or more.
Speaker 2: Would you have routines in your hotel room in terms
Speaker 2: of what you do to make yourself or trying all
Speaker 2: these different places? Try not to eat them anyway.
Speaker 1: I try not to go near the mini bar. That's
Speaker 1: a start, because
Speaker 2: it's very unsettling. The idea of sleeping in different beds
Speaker 2: all the time and
Speaker 1: yes, well, when you're away for, say, what was
Speaker 1: about 110 nights overseas,
Speaker 1: there were times when I would wake up and then
Speaker 1: feel around me. Okay, where's my phone? Where's the light switch.
Speaker 1: Where am I? Where? Bathroom. That would happen. Wake up
Speaker 1: and think.
Speaker 1: Okay. Tuesday must be Belgium.
Speaker 2: What's my hotel room number? I've forgotten.
Speaker 1: I There have been occasions when I've been trying to remember.
Speaker 1: Somebody will say what was exquisite hotel like And I
Speaker 1: think
Speaker 1: I stayed there and I'll try and visualize what it
Speaker 1: looked like in my mind. And then I'll remember something like, Ah,
Speaker 1: the passageway. Remember the breakfast room yet? Something will come
Speaker 1: back to me. And I'll remember where you went for
Speaker 1: a run. Yeah, I remember my runs very well.
Speaker 2: How do you pack?
Speaker 1: With great difficulty. It's like a military operation rolling, folding,
Speaker 1: trying to work out day by day, what I'm going
Speaker 1: to need to wear. And this is something that guys
Speaker 1: just don't get
Speaker 1: because they can put in suits, shirts, ties, done.
Speaker 1: But for a woman, you're expected to
Speaker 1: take a cocktail, Frank, if there's an event or a
Speaker 1: suit or you're running here. And so if I were
Speaker 1: going away sometimes for 10 days at a time,
Speaker 1: I sit at home and go through day by day. Well,
Speaker 1: I wear that outfit that day, that one that one
Speaker 1: and go through it and then work out the weather.
Speaker 1: And it's going to be hot cold because often I
Speaker 1: remember my last overseas trip as foreign minister.
Speaker 1: We went from North Asia to Southeast Asia, to Samoa
Speaker 1: and back to Sydney, and so it was going Northern hemisphere,
Speaker 1: Southern hemisphere, formal, casual and everything in between. So you
Speaker 1: just
Speaker 1: over time you learn to pack for any and all occasions.
Speaker 2: Do you do your own hair and makeup? Because that's
Speaker 2: another tax on women in the public eye that men
Speaker 2: don't have to pay in terms of time
Speaker 1: unless I'm doing a TV interview and you know how
Speaker 1: they have. They have makeup rooms and they make you
Speaker 1: look
Speaker 1: younger and brighter and fresher. But otherwise, no, I do
Speaker 1: my own hair and makeup and I don't have a stylist.
Speaker 1: I do my own clothes shopping.
Speaker 2: I noticed you love fashion, which we all love about you.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't apologize for it. You know who I
Speaker 1: am and if you want authentic politicians, you've just got
Speaker 1: to accept the fact that I love fashion. I always have,
Speaker 1: and I always will.
Speaker 2: Your fashion style changed a few years ago, I noticed
Speaker 2: you used to wear brightly colored jackets and pearls.
Speaker 2: And then you started wearing a lot of Armani. More edgy, close,
Speaker 2: more dark colours. You became more, I would say, contemporary
Speaker 2: and more fashion.
Speaker 1: You know there's a story behind this. Please tell it. Amazing.
Speaker 1: As a lawyer, I
Speaker 1: war suits, uh, a lot because that's kind of the
Speaker 1: professional uniform. And I bought my first Armani suit as
Speaker 1: a partner in a law firm, saved up enough and
Speaker 1: brought in the money suit. I thought Love it.
Speaker 1: When I was first appointed to the ministry,
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 1: was asked to be the minister for aged care for aging,
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: one of the prime minister's senior advisers rang me
Speaker 1: and said,
Speaker 1: Julie, take this the right way. But forget the Armani suits.
Speaker 1: Forget the corporate. Look,
Speaker 1: you're the minister for aging. You're going into age care homes.
Speaker 1: You've got to dress appropriately and I'm there. I don't know.
Speaker 1: This is a guy telling me, What do you mean?
Speaker 1: What do you want me to wear? Like I am
Speaker 1: who I am? I've been
Speaker 1: a professional
Speaker 1: career woman for quite some time now, and I have
Speaker 1: a dress and how to get dressed, he said. You know,
Speaker 1: like I said, What you mean like cardigans? And this
Speaker 1: is Before Michelle Obama turned cardigans into a fashion item.
Speaker 1: I said, Like cardigans. He goes, Yeah, more prints, more color,
Speaker 1: more down, up.
Speaker 1: Just not corporate.
Speaker 1: So you'll see me as minister for aging, looking
Speaker 1: like
Speaker 1: they expected me to look, that was,
Speaker 1: and then I thought, This is ridiculous. Don't let other
Speaker 1: people define who you are, what you wear be authentic.
Speaker 1: And so I just decided one day of
Speaker 1: had enough of that, I'm going to dress the way
Speaker 1: I want to dress.
Speaker 2: I love it. I was watching Amanda Vanstone on You
Speaker 2: Can't Ask That the ABC Show, and she strikes me
Speaker 2: as someone who also just really knows her style. She
Speaker 2: wears her bright prince short sleeve shirts with her skirts
Speaker 2: or slacks, and that's just her.
Speaker 1: Well, that's right. You wear what
Speaker 1: makes you feel
Speaker 1: comfortable, happy dress for yourself. Don't dress for others, and
Speaker 1: I made that mistake. So I now dress very much
Speaker 1: for myself and sure you get criticized for it. But
Speaker 1: if I feel comfortable, if I'm happy with what I'm wearing.
Speaker 1: That's enough,
Speaker 2: Julie. How do you date when you're a politician and
Speaker 2: you're the foreign Minister? I mean I mean, imagine there's
Speaker 2: no shortage of men around you all the time. But
Speaker 2: how do you actually have any kind of romantic or
Speaker 2: personal life?
Speaker 1: I have a lovely partner indeed. How did you guys
Speaker 1: meet through Bruce Baird? See, you can have friends in politics.
Speaker 1: Bruce was the first
Speaker 1: person that I met when I became a new member
Speaker 1: of Parliament back in 1998. He had the opposite opposite mine,
Speaker 1: and we just struck up a friendship. We became friends,
Speaker 1: and we're friends. To this day,
Speaker 1: he introduced us
Speaker 2: and you've been together, you and David for about five
Speaker 2: years or so now and used to travel a lot together.
Speaker 2: At one point, I think, um, Melania Trump confused you
Speaker 2: with one of the
Speaker 1: wives. She told me that story. Well, I get into
Speaker 1: trouble with the White House when I tell this story.
Speaker 1: But Melania anymore. No. Melania assumed that David was the
Speaker 1: foreign minister and that I was the
Speaker 1: the partner and she asked me to her
Speaker 1: lunch the partners lunch the next day and I said, Oh, no,
Speaker 1: David's going And she was very puzzled. Why would Australia's
Speaker 1: foreign minister turned up at my ladies' lunch? But she
Speaker 1: obviously worked it out the next day when David did
Speaker 1: turn up the lunch and
Speaker 1: he said he had a wonderful time, so he
Speaker 2: has to be pretty secure to be to be dating you.
Speaker 2: You're pretty formidable and accomplished and beautiful and all of
Speaker 2: those
Speaker 1: things. No, he's a very special person.
Speaker 2: Can I ask you about a few different people? Barack Obama?
Speaker 1: Yes, I met him on a number of occasions. He
Speaker 1: was a very cool,
Speaker 1: calm person. He had a delightful sense of humor, but
Speaker 1: it was very It was very laid back, a lot
Speaker 1: more informal than I had expected.
Speaker 1: And he was fun to be around.
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 1: met him here in Australia and in Washington and in
Speaker 1: New York,
Speaker 1: and on every occasion he would call you by your
Speaker 1: first name. There was a real informality about him that
Speaker 1: was quite charming.
Speaker 2: He seems to have worn his, um, role, I guess,
Speaker 2: quite lightly. Like heavily in terms of he took, he
Speaker 2: took it. It was very responsible, obviously, and an extraordinary leader,
Speaker 2: but he seemed to not take himself too seriously. He
Speaker 2: seemed like he would be quite fun to be
Speaker 1: around. He seemed to be quite relaxed in the role,
Speaker 1: and that was quite an attractive quality. Being around, you know,
Speaker 1: he was the leader of the free world, the world's
Speaker 1: only superpower. And you're the president. It's a
Speaker 1: a very substantial role. Let's face it.
Speaker 1: But he seemed to be very relaxed,
Speaker 1: remarkably relaxed in the role.
Speaker 2: Did you read Michelle Obama's becoming
Speaker 1: I started? I haven't finished it. I've got about eight books.
Speaker 1: I imagine you met her a number of times. Yes,
Speaker 1: I did. She's charming, delightful, likewise very accessible, very informal
Speaker 1: and very tall. She's beautiful. They're both very tall. I
Speaker 1: have my photograph taken with them a number of times,
Speaker 1: and I felt like
Speaker 1: tiny little person between these two glamour Zahn's. It was
Speaker 1: a bit intimidating.
Speaker 2: Uh, did you make Donald
Speaker 1: Trump? Yes, Donald and Melania.
Speaker 1: I know
Speaker 2: you have to be diplomatic.
Speaker 1: I met the president on a number of occasions. He
Speaker 1: is quite unorthodox. He's very confident, self confident
Speaker 1: and again because I was Australia's foreign minister. He was
Speaker 1: very warm and welcoming.
Speaker 1: I don't know that we appreciate how highly regarded Australia
Speaker 1: is on the world stage. And so it was such
Speaker 1: an honor to be Australia's foreign minister and turning up
Speaker 1: at these forums and meetings and conferences and the United
Speaker 1: Nations time and time again. And people seem genuinely pleased
Speaker 1: to see you and genuinely respectful of your view, because
Speaker 1: you were from Australia,
Speaker 1: a country that is very highly regarded.
Speaker 2: Haven't we lost a lot of skin in the last
Speaker 2: few years? The Italy of
Speaker 2: the Pacific and just with this ridiculous kangaroo style
Speaker 2: in and out of I was contacted
Speaker 1: by a number of counterparts overseas who were puzzled. They
Speaker 1: were perplexed because that's not the image they had of
Speaker 1: Australia were one of the
Speaker 1: longest standing democracies in modern times, and people always equated
Speaker 1: Australia to political stability, many other things as well open
Speaker 1: liberal democracy, freedom and the rule of law and open,
Speaker 1: export oriented market economy. There are things about Australia that
Speaker 1: stand the test of time,
Speaker 1: and this just went against their understanding of Australia
Speaker 1: and why were we changing prime ministers and then what
Speaker 1: was the reason for it? And they will be expecting
Speaker 1: some deep, substantial philosophical ideological divide, and it came down to, well,
Speaker 1: they don't like working with him.
Speaker 2: That's pretty much why Malcolm Turnbull went like, Can anyone
Speaker 2: still to this day explain what just happened?
Speaker 1: Well, I certainly wasn't the instigator of it, so I
Speaker 1: had no cause to want to see Malcolm leave, and
Speaker 1: I thought the polling was heading in the right direction,
Speaker 1: and I was confident that Malcolm would win the next election.
Speaker 1: But likewise, I'm confident that Scott Morrison will win the
Speaker 1: election so
Speaker 1: the policies do matter. And I think the Australian people
Speaker 1: trust the Coalition on Economic Management and National Security. Another
Speaker 1: two tenants, if you like, of a federal government.
Speaker 2: When you met a lot of foreign diplomats and leaders,
Speaker 2: what were their ideas about Australia, like, what did they
Speaker 2: want to talk to you about? Was it koalas? Was
Speaker 2: it about
Speaker 2: Kylie Minogue like what was their pop cultural understanding of
Speaker 1: where we see it in the world? Many of them
Speaker 1: had visited Australia, and there
Speaker 1: reference point was normally how clean and open and free
Speaker 1: we are as a society,
Speaker 1: and that's why when there was the Lindt Cafe
Speaker 1: attack, for example, people were shocked again. That's not what
Speaker 1: they expected
Speaker 1: to happen in Australia,
Speaker 1: and so were seen as a
Speaker 1: a country that
Speaker 1: is the envy of the world in so many ways
Speaker 1: were economically successful. We have a lifestyle, second, none,
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: the people are friendly.
Speaker 1: So that's the image people have of us overseas. Many
Speaker 1: foreign ministers, for example, had been to Australia.
Speaker 1: A number had not. Now, this is an interesting one.
Speaker 1: John Kerry was US secretary of state, long standing foreign
Speaker 1: policy expert, and
Speaker 1: he came to Australia in 2016 as part of what's
Speaker 1: called Osmond the Australia US Ministerial Dialogue.
Speaker 1: He had never been to Australia, and I was quite
Speaker 1: taken aback by that. How could that possibly be a
Speaker 1: senior
Speaker 1: public figure in the US who had been a senator
Speaker 1: for 30 years, had never found his way to Australia. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I remember the first press conference and he was saying
Speaker 1: to the media, I've never been to Australia before, and
Speaker 1: then I took him aside and said I wouldn't tell
Speaker 1: them that again. I wouldn't because they're just going to
Speaker 1: ask you why the hell not?
Speaker 1: But he was enchanted by the place. We had the
Speaker 1: meeting at Admiralty House, so in Sydney, and we took
Speaker 1: the
Speaker 1: Navy's barge from the opera house steps. The manual steps
Speaker 1: over to Admiralty House, and the governor general, Peter Cosgrove,
Speaker 1: measures there.
Speaker 1: And John Kerry looked out over Sydney Harbour and said,
Speaker 1: This is amazing. So I added, This is why you
Speaker 1: should have been here before just to get an understanding
Speaker 1: of what Australia's really love. You
Speaker 2: were the deputy of three different leaders. Brendan Nelson, Tony
Speaker 2: Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull.
Speaker 1: Well, Brendan Nelson, Malcolm Turnbull, Tony Abbott, Malcolm Turnbull went
Speaker 1: in that order. So
Speaker 2: Malcolm Turnbull,
Speaker 1: Malcolm, tell
Speaker 2: me about the relationship when you're a deputy to your
Speaker 2: to your party leader.
Speaker 1: The interesting point about the deputy of the Liberal Party
Speaker 1: is that you are elected directly by the party room.
Speaker 1: It's about the only position that is not appointed by
Speaker 1: the leader.
Speaker 1: And
Speaker 2: so he doesn't get to choose or she
Speaker 1: Menzies, our founder, did this deliberately. He set it up
Speaker 1: so that
Speaker 1: there were two positions elected by the party room, the
Speaker 1: leader and the deputy leader. And that meant the deputy
Speaker 1: leader was actually answerable to the party room, not to
Speaker 1: the leader. So the leader couldn't sack the deputy. And
Speaker 1: I was very conscious of that
Speaker 1: responsibility and the role of deputy. You are the conduit
Speaker 1: between
Speaker 1: the back bench
Speaker 1: and the leader. So while Cabinet ministers were appointed by
Speaker 1: the
Speaker 1: leader while chairs of committees were appointed by the leader,
Speaker 1: so he who gives can take away the deputy's position
Speaker 1: was elected by the whole party room. And so I
Speaker 1: was re elected a number of times by the party room.
Speaker 1: On the last occasion, I didn't stand for re elections.
Speaker 2: Why didn't you?
Speaker 2: You
Speaker 1: know what I was going to stand for? Leader, leader.
Speaker 1: And then when I didn't get through
Speaker 1: that test, I decided not to run for Deputy because
Speaker 1: I thought they need a new team.
Speaker 1: It would be
Speaker 1: wise for me to stand aside and let a new
Speaker 1: team start all over again.
Speaker 1: So that's what happened. So Josh Fredinburg stood and he
Speaker 1: was elected and I didn't stand. So I have an
Speaker 1: unblemished record as deputy.
Speaker 2: There were some leaders that you seem to get on
Speaker 2: with better than others that you were more probably like
Speaker 2: minded than others. You and Brendan Nelson remain close friends.
Speaker 2: You and Malcolm Turnbull seemed to be a really good team.
Speaker 1: I knew Malcolm from a long time ago. We met
Speaker 1: in the late eighties when he was
Speaker 1: a lawyer from Sydney and I was a lawyer in Perth,
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: our firm briefed Malcolm
Speaker 1: on some significant litigation. At the time. He had a
Speaker 1: long standing. So I know Malcolm. For a long time
Speaker 1: I've been to his birthday parties. I've got to know Lucy. Well, um,
Speaker 1: Malcolm's father in law, Tom Hughes, was a barrister that
Speaker 1: I briefed on many occasions. So I've known the Turnbull
Speaker 1: family Turnbull Hughes family for many years. So Malcolm and
Speaker 1: I were friends before he came into politics. In fact,
Speaker 1: we both went to the Constitutional Convention. Back in 1998
Speaker 1: he was heading up the Republican movement, and I was
Speaker 1: an appointed delegate from Western Australia as a female lawyer
Speaker 1: at the time. So I've known Malcolm for a long time,
Speaker 1: so we were friends before he came into politics, and
Speaker 1: we're friends to this day.
Speaker 2: What about Tony Abbott?
Speaker 1: Tony was my senior minister when I was the minister
Speaker 1: for aging. He was the minister for health, and so
Speaker 1: we worked closely together in professionally. We got along fine.
Speaker 1: We have different perspectives on a number of social issues,
Speaker 1: and so we're not as close, obviously.
Speaker 1: And then when Tony lost the support of the party room,
Speaker 1: he took it pretty hard
Speaker 1: and blamed a lot of people, and I think I
Speaker 1: was included in that group.
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 1: didn't ever undermine Tony. I never leaked against him.
Speaker 1: I was
Speaker 1: a deputy as competently and as effectively as I could be.
Speaker 1: But politics can be a very tough, tough game, and
Speaker 1: people get disappointed about a whole range of things
Speaker 2: when you're the deputy to a leader who you aren't
Speaker 2: aligned with, perhaps on things like same sex marriage, perhaps
Speaker 2: their beliefs about women. How do you manage that?
Speaker 1: You respect that. Your views are different. You respect their
Speaker 1: views if they are honestly held and hope that they
Speaker 1: respect your views that are honestly held.
Speaker 1: But you can't expect to in the leadership team to
Speaker 1: have the same view on the same issues. The Liberal
Speaker 1: Party attracts people across a broad spectrum. John Howard always
Speaker 1: called it a broad church, and people have different views,
Speaker 1: different experiences, different perspectives and philosophies and values.
Speaker 1: And so you
Speaker 1: work with that. You don't
Speaker 1: resent it.
Speaker 1: If you think it's worth advocating a change in position,
Speaker 1: you can give advice. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: everybody's responsible for their own
Speaker 1: position and own stance and
Speaker 1: own views on things. So I didn't ever see it
Speaker 1: as a problem that I had different views to the leader.
Speaker 1: In fact, in some ways it was probably good because
Speaker 1: it reflected the differences
Speaker 1: across the Liberal Party.
Speaker 2: Do you have to make those challenges or put forward
Speaker 2: those counter arguments behind closed doors?
Speaker 1: Well, generally, that's what leadership meetings and cabinet and party
Speaker 1: room meetings are for. The party room is not as
Speaker 1: confidential as one would like, but
Speaker 1: most certainly leadership meetings in Cabinet meetings are an opportunity
Speaker 1: to put different points of view, and that's important. You
Speaker 1: have to have robust debates and challenge ideas and challenge
Speaker 1: people's positions. So you get the best outcomes, and I
Speaker 1: think that if you have a party full of yes,
Speaker 1: men or women, then you're not getting the best outcomes.
Speaker 1: You've got to have the debate about issues and values
Speaker 1: and ideas
Speaker 2: just to finish up your last day,
Speaker 2: you had quite a lot of time to think about
Speaker 2: what you're going to say, what you're going to wear.
Speaker 2: A lot of people said you were white to represent
Speaker 2: the suffragettes.
Speaker 1: There is symbolism in what you wear as a public
Speaker 1: figure without doubt, and I'm conscious of that. I don't
Speaker 1: get up in the morning and think Now, what statement
Speaker 1: shall I make today? Therefore I choose that.
Speaker 1: But I wanted him.
Speaker 1: I wanted to wear something that was fresh and bright
Speaker 1: and didn't meld into the
Speaker 1: green of the House of Representatives. Ugly, ugly green.
Speaker 1: Well, it's sort of a Tasmanian blue gum green, isn't it?
Speaker 1: How did you feel
Speaker 2: when you got up and spoke for about eight
Speaker 1: minutes?
Speaker 1: I had told the prime minister just prior to question
Speaker 1: time that I intended to
Speaker 1: announced that I wouldn't re contest the seat,
Speaker 1: I told the
Speaker 1: speaker of the House, and he said that he would
Speaker 1: give me time after question time.
Speaker 1: I thought the timing was right,
Speaker 1: and I
Speaker 1: simply made the announcement. It wasn't a valedictory. I didn't
Speaker 1: want to do the
Speaker 1: you know the legacy and and the perhaps somewhat self
Speaker 1: indulgent speech about what I'd achieved in my public life.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to say simply, thank you, that it
Speaker 1: had been an honor and a privilege, and I was
Speaker 1: a fortunate person to have been able to serve in
Speaker 1: the
Speaker 1: House of Representatives. Not many people get to do that
Speaker 1: in
Speaker 1: history. And so I was
Speaker 1: very. I felt very proud of what I've achieved and
Speaker 1: the fact that I
Speaker 1: fulfilled a dream, and that was to be Australia's foreign minister.
Speaker 2: You've got a standing ovation.
Speaker 1: I was very touched by that.
Speaker 2: But you didn't stick around
Speaker 2: well, it
Speaker 1: wasn't a valedictory, so I have made my announcement. And
Speaker 1: then I thought, It's time for me to go and
Speaker 1: I didn't appreciate that either the prime minister or the
Speaker 1: leader of the opposition was going to say, you know,
Speaker 1: we're going to stand and say something. Nobody told me
Speaker 1: that they were going to speak, so I was back
Speaker 1: in my office then. Whoops.
Speaker 1: They're all on TV. I
Speaker 2: mean, you said you felt relieved and all of those things.
Speaker 2: What's next?
Speaker 1: I will assist in
Speaker 1: campaigning in western Australia, and perhaps something in Victoria,
Speaker 1: and then I'll start
Speaker 1: considering options. People have been very generous with offers and proposals.
Speaker 1: I hope to do something in the private sector, maybe
Speaker 1: in academia, and most certainly will continue in philanthropic and
Speaker 1: charitable roles
Speaker 1: and a whole basket of things. And I want to
Speaker 1: keep very busy.
Speaker 1: I'm sure I will and do a whole range of
Speaker 1: things that have,
Speaker 1: um,
Speaker 1: the ability to drive my energy and passion.
Speaker 1: So I'm looking forward to it with a great deal
Speaker 1: of optimism and excitement, even
Speaker 2: thanks for listening to no filter. After we recorded that chat,
Speaker 2: Julie came straight out into the mom and their office
Speaker 2: and was an enormously good sport for all the selfies
Speaker 2: we wanted to take. In fact, she directed the selfies.
Speaker 2: She's very good at it. She gathered us all together
Speaker 2: in a group they were about, I don't know, 50
Speaker 2: of us that all wanted our photo taken
Speaker 2: and she was like, You move over here, you're getting
Speaker 2: closer over there. And she sat down on the floor
Speaker 2: in those incredibly beautiful high heels that she was wearing.
Speaker 2: And she's just an absolute delight,
Speaker 2: So it'll be really interesting to see what she does next.
Speaker 2: Next week, on No Filter, David Gillespie joins me to
Speaker 2: talk about the way in which screen addiction is rewiring
Speaker 2: the brains of a generation and what we can do
Speaker 2: about it. If you liked hearing that conversation with Julie
Speaker 2: and want more Australian politics and news and current affairs
Speaker 2: and really the stories behind all of those things,
Speaker 2: listen to our episode of our daily Show, the quickie
Speaker 2: about whether or not the Liberal Party have a woman problem.
Speaker 2: Spoiler alert. They do search the quickie liberal in your
Speaker 2: podcast app will follow the links in our show Notes.
Speaker 2: No filter is produced by Eliza Ratliff. I'm Mayor Friedman,
Speaker 2: and I'll see you on Mamma Mia.
Speaker 2: Yeah.