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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on On a Thursday.

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Speaker 1: In June twenty nineteen, Anne, a ninety eight year old

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Speaker 1: former yoga instructor suffering from dementia, passed away in a

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Speaker 1: Melbourne nursing home. Now, an elderly woman's quiet death in

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Speaker 1: a suburban aged care facility wouldn't normally garner international press attention,

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Speaker 1: but the passing of Anne Hamilton Burne made headlines both

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Speaker 1: here and overseas. Her passing described by a detective who

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Speaker 1: knew her true identity as the end of the life

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Speaker 1: of one of Victoria's most evil people. Anne Hamilton Burne

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Speaker 1: was a leader of the cult known as the Family.

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Speaker 1: Now you may have seen photos of those children lined

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Speaker 1: up in perfect symmetry, their hair dyed blindingly bright blonde,

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Speaker 1: their clothes similar to those worn by children of the

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Speaker 1: royal family, or the von Traps from the sound of music,

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Speaker 1: all matching. The boys in velvet blue jumpers, the girls

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Speaker 1: in floral dresses, knee high socks, and Mary Jane's. These

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Speaker 1: children were not ants, but they called her mother. Many

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Speaker 1: adopted from parents who worshiped the woman who claimed she

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Speaker 1: was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. But when three of

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Speaker 1: those children escaped and went to police, the world of

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Speaker 1: the family would come crashing down, leaving those who knew

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Speaker 1: no other life than one of complete control under the

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Speaker 1: hand of Anne Hamilton Burne to start over. I'm Claire

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Speaker 1: Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring

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Speaker 1: the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people

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Speaker 1: who know the most about them. If you were to

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Speaker 1: travel to Lake Elden in Victoria in the sixties, seventies

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Speaker 1: and eighties, like thousands of Australian families did and still do,

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Speaker 1: you would find an eye ideally Coustralian setting, a place

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Speaker 1: you and I would have loved to have set up camp,

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Speaker 1: with its lush greenery and secluded waterfront property. It was peaceful,

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Speaker 1: that is until he walked a little further and found

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Speaker 1: the property known as kay Lama, for the Lake Eilden compound,

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Speaker 1: with all its tree lined beauty, was also a prison,

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Speaker 1: wrapped in barbed wire to keep the dozens of children

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Speaker 1: who would call it home from wandering too far from

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Speaker 1: the influence of Anne Hamilton burn and the glamorous yoga

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Speaker 1: teacher to wealthy suburban Melbourne mums. With her polished blond

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Speaker 1: updew and her shining perfectly touched up lipstick, managed to

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Speaker 1: convince up to five hundred adult followers to join her

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Speaker 1: at Lake Hilden and other properties in Melbourne and across

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Speaker 1: the Dandenong Rangers. She went from teaching them how to

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Speaker 1: stretch to teaching them about her reincarnation, claiming to be

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Speaker 1: the embodiment of Jesus Christ. On that Lake Hilden compound,

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Speaker 1: Hamilton Burne had curated a family gathering children, some of

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Speaker 1: whom were adopted under suspicious circumstances, whose outward appearance of

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Speaker 1: cherubic angels or dressed in matching outfits covered up a

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Speaker 1: life of fear and torment, of drugging, brainwashing, featings, and starvation.

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Speaker 1: One of those children was Ben Andrew Shanton, who, at

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Speaker 1: age fifteen, was finally rescued from the clutches of the

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Speaker 1: cult leader and sent back out into the real world,

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Speaker 1: with a lifetime of obedience and servitude, punishment and reward

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Speaker 1: the only things to base his new existence on. Ben

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Speaker 1: sat down with us to remember his life in the

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Speaker 1: before and the life he's managed to reclaim and create

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Speaker 1: in the after Ben, thank you so much for agreeing

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Speaker 1: to chat to us today. I would like to start

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Speaker 1: from a point where you're not even in existence yet,

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Speaker 1: if that's okay with you, Because you were born in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two and you're a planned pregnancy, but not

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Speaker 1: in the way that say, parents of twenty twenty five

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Speaker 1: are probably planning a pregnancy. Can you explain how you

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Speaker 1: came to be in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Sure, let me give a very brief overview of a

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Speaker 2: woman called Anne Hamilton Byrne. She had her own major

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Speaker 2: issues in life, a broken family, her own mental issues.

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Speaker 2: She was a control freak, as I cover in the book,

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Speaker 2: so very much looked to create a world that she

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Speaker 2: controlled everything. And the sixties bought up a existential threat,

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Speaker 2: which was nuclear warfare and the belief that Vietnam War

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Speaker 2: communism flowing through everything. So the Western society was dealing

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Speaker 2: with issues that they were seeing in their landroums now

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Speaker 2: on TVs, in newspaper articles that weren't there before. So

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Speaker 2: it gave in the nineteen sixties in Australia, Melbourne, it

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Speaker 2: gave an impetus for a belief system of this what

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Speaker 2: we've been told doesn't work. Let's try something different. So

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Speaker 2: my mother, as I worked out, became involved in this.

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Speaker 2: She started going down the path. She had her own

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Speaker 2: issues in her marriage. As happens. Others say she had

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Speaker 2: an idyllic marriage Jewish community. Things seemed to be very good.

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Speaker 2: They were from the outside, everything was fantastic, but she

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Speaker 2: says it was a very difficult marriage. She had physical

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Speaker 2: issues to so, having had car accident, had whiplash, had

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Speaker 2: problems with her spine, and so she had major medical problems.

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Speaker 2: It gave involved in Hatha yoga. The leader of the

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Speaker 2: cult started that I was teaching it, and my mother

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Speaker 2: got involved and then began to experience. At a time

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Speaker 2: when she went for some back surgery, there was no

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, even fifteen years ago, you able to

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Speaker 2: do keyhole site to fix the issues with the spine,

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Speaker 2: take out a little bit of the vertebra and the

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Speaker 2: nerves of a least back in the sixties, the Mayo clinic,

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Speaker 2: which she had connections to, had no answers. She was

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Speaker 2: about to go in for some exploratory service and Burne

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Speaker 2: knocked on the door. Her eldest son invited her in

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Speaker 2: and she told my mother, if you follow me, I'll

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Speaker 2: heal you. And my mother that stage is looking for

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Speaker 2: an escape out of what she called a loveless marriage.

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Speaker 2: She's bedridden, in a lot of pain. She's rejected that

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Speaker 2: her religious groundings, which is Christianity and Jadaism and looking

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Speaker 2: for Hatha yoga into the occult, and Ann claimed to

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Speaker 2: be the reincarnation of Jesus, had seen healing happen. She

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Speaker 2: experienced it. So that was a start in my mother's

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Speaker 2: life that transitioned away from her own autonomy, her own

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Speaker 2: family into handing that over. She said that and called

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Speaker 2: her back from the dead, gave her a new life,

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Speaker 2: a new start, and a future. Then Anne claimed as

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Speaker 2: well that the world's going to be destroyed by nuclear warfare,

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Speaker 2: and you can be part of creating a brand new star.

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Speaker 2: At the age of Aquarius, which you go back into

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Speaker 2: the sixties is and the cultic belief that there are

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Speaker 2: ages and there are booms, the Great White Brotherhood. If

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Speaker 2: we go back, that will send individuals down that will

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Speaker 2: rescue society. Give it these shifts. Jesus Christ one, Muhammed's another.

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Speaker 2: You'll go through all the prophets. They just name these

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Speaker 2: the different embodiments of them, and then Ann claimed to

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Speaker 2: be the latest embodiment. So my mother was convinced of

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Speaker 2: that left a loveless marriage. And then Anne said to her,

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Speaker 2: you need to have a child that's not a Jewish.

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Speaker 2: So okay, So the master recarnation of Jesus, the avatar

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Speaker 2: of Christ, has given her a direction, and so that's

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Speaker 2: what she did. She shocked up with an Englishman, Peter Shenton,

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Speaker 2: and I.

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Speaker 1: Came along so and says to your mother, you need

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Speaker 1: to have a baby that's not Jewish. So she gets

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Speaker 1: pregnant with Peter, and then eighteen months later she decides

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Speaker 1: to say to your mother, hand that baby over. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you obviously know what happened. Now, can you give us

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Speaker 1: an idea of like your mom's state of mind when

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Speaker 1: she's asked to hand over her eighteen month old child.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I've talked to my mom as I built

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Speaker 2: a relationship with her and set it up so that

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Speaker 2: she sent my father over to England, back where the

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Speaker 2: cult functioned as well, turned my mother into a single mother,

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Speaker 2: asked her to look after one of her properties in

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Speaker 2: Australia as a care giller, and made it clear that

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Speaker 2: she could give me the best life possible, far better

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Speaker 2: than what my mother could. And the other thing in

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Speaker 2: here is to think of this. If you believe that

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Speaker 2: your guru has requested something from you and is going

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Speaker 2: to recreate the world, and your child's been chosen to

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Speaker 2: be one of those people to do it, that's a

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Speaker 2: pretty heavy request. You are one of the chosen, your

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Speaker 2: child have been picked. And as doctor Rayna K. Johnson,

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Speaker 2: who was the Master of Queen's College, one of the

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Speaker 2: founding members of the cult, said when he wrote his

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Speaker 2: memoir on this stuff, is that Anne Hamilton byrne knew

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Speaker 2: who would be born, who they'd be born to, where

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Speaker 2: they would be, and would gather these children. So my

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Speaker 2: mother is convinced her son is one of them who

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Speaker 2: has been specially selected to restart this world and bring

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Speaker 2: it into a brand new face.

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Speaker 1: So whenever we hear or read about the family, it's

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Speaker 1: often accompanied by that photo of the children lined up

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Speaker 1: in symmetry, wearing the matching outfits, with all your hair

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Speaker 1: dyed blonde. When you see yourself in those photos, what

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Speaker 1: are we seeing in the eyes of yourself, your brothers

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Speaker 1: and sisters as you're posing in these group shots to

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Speaker 1: show just how perfect a little family and has created

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Speaker 1: for herself. Like, what do you see when you look

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Speaker 1: at those pictures?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it was just life. We were her children,

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Speaker 2: we were different ages. We'd line up Von Trapp style

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Speaker 2: the sound of music which we'd watch, dressed in outfits

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Speaker 2: that matched, and that was just what we want us

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Speaker 2: to do. And did you look back on that and

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Speaker 2: you see it's choreographed as you look in at and

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Speaker 2: I'm the same. And indeed did craft a belief that

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Speaker 2: she had these children, which she didn't. We were all

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Speaker 2: either adopted or handed over. So she lived the lies.

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Speaker 2: She created a lie that shows the level of control

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Speaker 2: she had over people to be able to present something

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Speaker 2: that wasn't true.

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Speaker 1: Do you believe that she chose to dye your hair

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Speaker 1: so that you would look more like Anne because Anne

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Speaker 1: was blonde herself?

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Speaker 2: Interesting?

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Speaker 1: Do you think that was the reason, Because there's often

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Speaker 1: been some discussion around whether Anne was actually trying to

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Speaker 1: achieve something racial in building this cult, in this army,

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Speaker 1: and that she wanted a future where it was white

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Speaker 1: people as the strongest that there was this link to

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Speaker 1: this Areyan race idea.

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Speaker 2: I don't know about whether she was going further. Definitely,

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Speaker 2: the first one's correct. She wore blonde wigs, her hair

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Speaker 2: was blondish, yes, So I think she was trying to

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Speaker 2: make us appear like that. Some of the girls and

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Speaker 2: some of the guys she didn't so they it would

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Speaker 2: to look like her husband. What was that the third husband,

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Speaker 2: Bill Hamilton, burn black hair. Her daughter who was her

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Speaker 2: real daughter, Natasha, she had red hair, so a couple

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Speaker 2: of them were allowed to have read So I think

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Speaker 2: she was trying to present that this is what it was.

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Speaker 2: But running in the background as well, remember as she

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Speaker 2: was planning on presenting once the world went through the

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Speaker 2: nuclear holocaust, this group of children that were not going

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Speaker 2: to be children by them, by adults that were going

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Speaker 2: to take the world over and recreate everything. So how

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Speaker 2: that was going to happen? Good luck without it never happened,

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Speaker 2: thank god, But that was the plan.

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Speaker 1: What's really interesting when you talk about the plan, because

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Speaker 1: we all presume that in a cult, the cult leader

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Speaker 1: would want their followers to be as uninformed as possible.

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Speaker 1: They want them to believe only what they tell them.

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Speaker 1: But from what I was reading in your book and

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Speaker 1: from interviews that you've done, previously I realized you were

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Speaker 1: all very well educated, like to a point where when

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Speaker 1: you got older, a lot of you were sent off

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Speaker 1: to boarding schools in England, where you said the other

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Speaker 1: part of the cult was functioning, Like why educate you

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Speaker 1: so well?

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Speaker 2: I think the failure here is you didn't realize that

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Speaker 2: knowledge is power. But what was fascinating, though, is that

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Speaker 2: we'd often get newspaper articles or newspapers with articles cut out,

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Speaker 2: so we were getting filtered information given to us. Everything

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Speaker 2: that came in was monitored controlled. So part of any

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Speaker 2: culture is you control the narrative. Now that sounds all freaky,

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Speaker 2: but it happens all the time. Editors decide what goes

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Speaker 2: into papers you've got. I guess nowadays it's a lot

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Speaker 2: easier to get information out there, but there were gatekeepers,

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Speaker 2: and so every culture has gatekeepers. They even in my

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Speaker 2: own home, there were things that I would elevate us

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Speaker 2: good that I wanted my kids to do. If they

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Speaker 2: did it, I'd reward them and say this is good,

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Speaker 2: would celebrate their successes. And if there were failures, they

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Speaker 2: didn't get talked about. All the time they were dealt with.

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Speaker 2: You would work through those, but they weren't elevated as

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Speaker 2: something we'd always talk about. So every healthy culture and

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Speaker 2: unhealthy ones, they control the narrative. So I did the

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Speaker 2: same thing. What I think she missed, though, is that

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Speaker 2: the more intelligent and the more information you give people,

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Speaker 2: then they can analyze and criticize. And I think that's

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Speaker 2: the piece she missed, is you look back on it. Yes,

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Speaker 2: dumbing people down so they don't question is one way

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Speaker 2: to handle it. But then you can't. There's no critical thinking,

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Speaker 2: there's no ability to be able to manage stuff. So

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Speaker 2: I think she wasn't as smart as she thought she was.

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Speaker 2: So how I speak about it is she did a

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Speaker 2: very good job of bringing the plants up in the greenhouse,

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Speaker 2: but she never thought how they're going to function once

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Speaker 2: you put them out of the world. So she had

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Speaker 2: a plan. She carefully crafted them, made the perfect environment

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Speaker 2: to make sure that these plants were going to be

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Speaker 2: good and shong, But when it came to getting them

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Speaker 2: out into the world, abject failure in almost every case.

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Speaker 2: And I just don't think she thought through that.

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Speaker 1: I read about how your days were structured at Ki Lama,

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Speaker 1: and from an outsider's perspective, it seems like a very

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Speaker 1: healthy and well rounded way to live. You get up early,

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Speaker 1: you do yoga, you have a vegetarian breakfast, you meditate,

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Speaker 1: you are educated. At your homeschooling, there's more meditation, lunches

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Speaker 1: again vegetarian, and then there's maybe more yoga. It seems

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Speaker 1: like a really healthy way to bring up a child.

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Speaker 1: But can you tell us what was happening in those days?

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Speaker 1: Because it was very monotonous, right, It was the same

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Speaker 1: thing pretty much day in day out. Yes, what was

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Speaker 1: that like for you just to go through those motions

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Speaker 1: every single day? Because you were doing that for thirteen years?

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Speaker 2: Yes, and monotonous is correct. Now you then have the

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Speaker 2: underlying education. You're then doing critical analysis. You're then realizing

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Speaker 2: this is not the best is slowly, bit by bit

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Speaker 2: information starts to filter in of what was around us,

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Speaker 2: what society had happened, and then you start to study

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Speaker 2: World War one, World War two history, concentration camps who

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Speaker 2: we'd call ourselves a concentration camp, who begin to join

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Speaker 2: the dots. So this was the challenge, and then some

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Speaker 2: of the girls in there and talk about Sarah went

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Speaker 2: on became a doctor. As another girl there who studied

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Speaker 2: psychology others had businesses, I mean buying large a group

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Speaker 2: of quite intelligent people, and that would be the synopsis

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Speaker 2: of a lot of us that when we were pulled out,

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Speaker 2: there was an element of intelligence there. So with that

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Speaker 2: came frustration anger. So we all responded differently, and everyone

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Speaker 2: does respond to environment differently. Two of the youngest ones,

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Speaker 2: for example, their body stopped producing growth all ones, so

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Speaker 2: they were underweight height and that's called psychosomatic dwarfism, so

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Speaker 2: the body when it's under long term emotional stress will

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Speaker 2: just stop producing growth hormones. And then when they were removed,

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Speaker 2: they went up to stand and height standard way, so

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Speaker 2: there's that response. My response was complete compliance. As you

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Speaker 2: read in the book there. I made a decision early on.

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Speaker 2: We're all dragged into a room. Someone's broken the rules,

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Speaker 2: stolen something that they shouldn't have. I can't even remember

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Speaker 2: what it was, but we're all interrogated who did this?

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Speaker 2: Whoever doesn't say you're all going to get punished, and

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Speaker 2: I just decide I did it just because I don't

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Speaker 2: want to live with that fit, and then I walk

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Speaker 2: out after that, I'm not going to do this if

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Speaker 2: I know if someone's done this, I have this inbuilt

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Speaker 2: sense of justice in me. That can be useful. It

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Speaker 2: can also be very difficult get us into trouble. But

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Speaker 2: this inbuilt sense of right and wrong. So if I

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Speaker 2: knew someone had done wrong, even though wrong was in

295
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Speaker 2: a rule book, that you and I might look at

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Speaker 2: that going knowing that's not wrong, that's harsh rule, but

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Speaker 2: that was the rules. That was the morals to fined

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Speaker 2: for me. So when they were broken, I would tell

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Speaker 2: on who did it, and that created an incredible tension.

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Speaker 2: So there was this underlying responses to how we all

301
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Speaker 2: handled it. Some outly rebelled, some completely complied, Some had

302
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Speaker 2: physical issues of just shutting themselves down emotionally. Others lived

303
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Speaker 2: in a fantasy world, I mean there was and others

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Speaker 2: just held themselves And I one of the girls, she

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Speaker 2: just said, I just held myself as to who I

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Speaker 2: was and almost rocking back and forward. I didn't allow

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Speaker 2: myself to feel things. So there was very different responses.

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Speaker 2: So that underlying clashes of how things happened created a

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Speaker 2: very toxic environment.

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Speaker 1: To say the least, you mentioned the rule book. Can

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Speaker 1: you give us an idea of what this is because

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Speaker 1: you talk about it in an abstract way, but it

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Speaker 1: was a literal, physical rule book that Anne had created

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Speaker 1: and had attached punishments to rules that were broken, and

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Speaker 1: they were physical signed off, like actually her signature on

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Speaker 1: the bottom of these pages to say that this is

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Speaker 1: what the process is if you do breakstead rule. Can

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Speaker 1: you give me an idea of what was in that

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Speaker 1: rule book and the punishments that would apply to those things?

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Speaker 2: Okay, So some of those things would be if someone

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Speaker 2: was to wet their bed, they would get cold shower,

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Speaker 2: miss out on meals. That would be one. If someone

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Speaker 2: was to answer back to one of the caregivers we

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00:19:30,192 --> 00:19:33,991
Speaker 2: call them aunts and uncles. They were doing what was

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Speaker 2: called guru savor service to the master two weeks on,

326
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Speaker 2: two weeks off. For a lot of the ants. They

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Speaker 2: were very regimented on what we could and couldn't do

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Speaker 2: with them if we answered back. Punishments were defined and

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Speaker 2: then Anne wouldn't make them up as she went. There

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Speaker 2: was a period of time there where it was a

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Speaker 2: rule book said you would be dunked in water if

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Speaker 2: you disobey if you steal. So there's you read the

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Speaker 2: book at stories of two occasions there where vitamin c's

334
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Speaker 2: got stolen. The rule book said that's belting, that dunking

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Speaker 2: in water. So that's what happened in that time.

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Speaker 1: And when you say dunking and water, it doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: just throwing you in the lake. You were held head

338
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Speaker 1: first underwater, right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so it would be called water torture. So

340
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Speaker 2: it was we were all lined up, we were belted

341
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Speaker 2: a bucket of water. I had held under the bucket

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Speaker 2: of water. Interrogan, did you do this? No, I didn't

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Speaker 2: head under, hold there until you thought you were suffocating,

344
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Speaker 2: brought back out again. So horrendous, horrendous experience. There's no

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Speaker 2: two ways. I mean, it caused nightmares, caused major issues.

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Speaker 2: These things shape your personality, is what happened. And anyone

347
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Speaker 2: who's lived under domestic violence will know the living with fear,

348
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Speaker 2: the walking on eggshells, the coing favor with those in

349
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Speaker 2: authority or the absolute rejection of them, the hatred of them,

350
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Speaker 2: the love hate relationship. I mean, it says a setus.

351
00:20:59,591 --> 00:21:03,311
Speaker 2: I've lived life and started dealing with people. You go, yes,

352
00:21:03,391 --> 00:21:08,071
Speaker 2: this is domestic abuse on steroids. Tragically, many women and

353
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Speaker 2: indeed some men go for It's not just many women

354
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Speaker 2: and children live with this, so it wise you were

355
00:21:13,591 --> 00:21:16,431
Speaker 2: a certain way that you end up with pathologies that

356
00:21:16,512 --> 00:21:19,751
Speaker 2: Anne used to control us. And this was the evil

357
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Speaker 2: genius of her. She understood if she could separate us,

358
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Speaker 2: isolate us, make it so that we couldn't build relationships

359
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Speaker 2: with one another, and punish us, then she could control us.

360
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Speaker 1: Can you tell me about how she would make you

361
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Speaker 1: compliant in the punishment process. Saw an interview that you

362
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Speaker 1: did where you got quite emotional when you talked about

363
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Speaker 1: telling on a brother who had respiratory problems and then

364
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Speaker 1: he would end up locked in cold dark sheds and

365
00:21:48,192 --> 00:21:51,112
Speaker 1: you know, would be suffering for days on end. And

366
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Speaker 1: now that you reflect on that, you understand how awful

367
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Speaker 1: that is. But at the time, yes, you felt like

368
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Speaker 1: you were doing a good thing, the right thing. Can

369
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Speaker 1: you just talk to us about how Anne made it

370
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Speaker 1: so none of you could ever really connect with each other.

371
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Speaker 2: And so when the connection was attempted, Claire, what she

372
00:22:09,391 --> 00:22:12,111
Speaker 2: would do is she would separate you, or she'd punish

373
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Speaker 2: you for it, or she'd set you against each other.

374
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Speaker 2: So she set herself up as if you tell and

375
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Speaker 2: you give me information, I will award you if you

376
00:22:21,111 --> 00:22:24,112
Speaker 2: form a relationship with someone which is a hedge against

377
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Speaker 2: having a relationship with me that I can control you,

378
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Speaker 2: I will destroy that. So two of the girls, Sarah

379
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Speaker 2: and Adtoinette, highly intelligent, highly intelligent, they were good friends,

380
00:22:37,792 --> 00:22:41,911
Speaker 2: and make sure they were both brutally punished and separated

381
00:22:42,472 --> 00:22:44,431
Speaker 2: so they were not with us. In the same version,

382
00:22:44,591 --> 00:22:48,471
Speaker 2: they were separate meals. They were made to sleep in

383
00:22:48,472 --> 00:22:52,191
Speaker 2: the bathroom by themselves. This happened again and again, this

384
00:22:52,311 --> 00:22:54,311
Speaker 2: type of abuse. Soon as you began to form a

385
00:22:54,351 --> 00:22:57,192
Speaker 2: relationship with someone had to find it and make sure

386
00:22:57,232 --> 00:23:00,311
Speaker 2: it was torn up so you couldn't build a friendship

387
00:23:00,311 --> 00:23:04,111
Speaker 2: with them. Because any friendship then means you have an

388
00:23:04,192 --> 00:23:09,911
Speaker 2: emotional barrier against puce. Let's be protection. So by stripping

389
00:23:09,992 --> 00:23:13,032
Speaker 2: that away, that you then create the direct connection to you.

390
00:23:13,272 --> 00:23:15,792
Speaker 2: So she would then take people away with her to

391
00:23:15,992 --> 00:23:18,871
Speaker 2: try and form a bond rhythm, and then she would

392
00:23:19,911 --> 00:23:23,071
Speaker 2: violate our trust to show that she was in control.

393
00:23:23,671 --> 00:23:27,311
Speaker 2: So she's making very clear I control you everything that

394
00:23:27,351 --> 00:23:30,232
Speaker 2: happens in your life. I control stone my good side,

395
00:23:30,792 --> 00:23:33,992
Speaker 2: we're good. Become my enemy. Your life's not worth living.

396
00:23:34,712 --> 00:23:38,512
Speaker 1: Can I ask then about how connected Anne was, because yes,

397
00:23:38,712 --> 00:23:41,552
Speaker 1: she threatened people in this kind of spiritual way, but

398
00:23:41,792 --> 00:23:45,952
Speaker 1: she could make people's lives difficult in the real world

399
00:23:46,472 --> 00:23:48,792
Speaker 1: because when we look at who was attached to the

400
00:23:48,871 --> 00:23:52,711
Speaker 1: family back in the seventies and eighties, it was people

401
00:23:52,792 --> 00:23:55,871
Speaker 1: that I know, like Reg Ansett, the former owner of

402
00:23:56,071 --> 00:23:59,071
Speaker 1: Ansett Airlines, who owned a TV station at the time.

403
00:23:59,151 --> 00:24:02,352
Speaker 1: He would reportedly quash any stories that would come out

404
00:24:02,351 --> 00:24:06,111
Speaker 1: about the family. There was also connections to possibly even

405
00:24:06,351 --> 00:24:09,311
Speaker 1: the Victorian premier at the time, the Liberal Party. There

406
00:24:09,351 --> 00:24:13,991
Speaker 1: were doctors, psychiatrists, Like when we think about cult sect members,

407
00:24:14,032 --> 00:24:17,991
Speaker 1: we think of really vulnerable people, uneducated who are sucked

408
00:24:18,032 --> 00:24:20,632
Speaker 1: in because they know I promised something like the way

409
00:24:20,671 --> 00:24:23,552
Speaker 1: that your mum was, but the reality was and was

410
00:24:23,631 --> 00:24:28,431
Speaker 1: connected to some really high profile people who helped her

411
00:24:29,032 --> 00:24:32,032
Speaker 1: maintain this cult for a really long time.

412
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Speaker 2: Yes, and that well, I guess was slight unique here

413
00:24:37,272 --> 00:24:42,392
Speaker 2: in that she connected with the intelligent intelligensia through Greg Johnson,

414
00:24:43,032 --> 00:24:47,752
Speaker 2: so he was the dean of Queen's College. He had

415
00:24:47,831 --> 00:24:50,471
Speaker 2: incredible influence and he had his own connections. I mean,

416
00:24:50,591 --> 00:24:53,991
Speaker 2: thirty two years of functioning at that level at Queen's

417
00:24:54,032 --> 00:24:58,191
Speaker 2: College in Melbourne University brings with it a lot of

418
00:24:58,232 --> 00:25:02,311
Speaker 2: tudos and a lot of respectability whenever there are any issues.

419
00:25:02,792 --> 00:25:05,951
Speaker 2: She dropped him out whenever there were any problems, and

420
00:25:06,071 --> 00:25:08,311
Speaker 2: he had his own connections. A lot of those connections

421
00:25:08,351 --> 00:25:10,911
Speaker 2: you spoke of were friends of his. So he was

422
00:25:11,032 --> 00:25:13,232
Speaker 2: convinced that Anne was who she claimed to be and

423
00:25:13,351 --> 00:25:16,151
Speaker 2: recruited for her. So if it wasn't for him, I

424
00:25:16,232 --> 00:25:18,272
Speaker 2: don't think the cult would ever have gone anywhere. It

425
00:25:18,431 --> 00:25:20,471
Speaker 2: just would have been this kookie woman who was a

426
00:25:20,552 --> 00:25:26,752
Speaker 2: yoga teacher, wielded some spiritual power, helped some people, but

427
00:25:26,992 --> 00:25:31,431
Speaker 2: he gave it validity. He gave it respectability and the

428
00:25:31,512 --> 00:25:34,232
Speaker 2: connections that came with it. So he would make the

429
00:25:34,272 --> 00:25:37,752
Speaker 2: phone calls to his friends and get stuff to happen.

430
00:25:37,992 --> 00:25:42,071
Speaker 2: So that was a major, major coup. And any idea,

431
00:25:42,752 --> 00:25:45,232
Speaker 2: any movement that starts, they always say this is a

432
00:25:45,272 --> 00:25:48,111
Speaker 2: project management one O one. It's the second person who's

433
00:25:48,151 --> 00:25:52,232
Speaker 2: the most important. It's not the first leader. The second

434
00:25:52,272 --> 00:25:55,471
Speaker 2: person validates it. So you can have someone dancing on

435
00:25:55,591 --> 00:25:59,631
Speaker 2: the side of a mountain. There's a large crowd around them,

436
00:26:00,311 --> 00:26:03,351
Speaker 2: but it's when someone else joins them, the second person

437
00:26:03,472 --> 00:26:06,071
Speaker 2: that validates this person having a dance by themselves and

438
00:26:06,472 --> 00:26:08,591
Speaker 2: this is fun. And then you suddenly get a whole

439
00:26:08,631 --> 00:26:11,911
Speaker 2: group of people dancing in the meadow. So this was

440
00:26:11,992 --> 00:26:16,911
Speaker 2: the key here, and he had incredible influence and to

441
00:26:17,032 --> 00:26:20,431
Speaker 2: the day he died, and used him to deflect and

442
00:26:20,631 --> 00:26:25,391
Speaker 2: used his connections. And it's interesting he died from the memory,

443
00:26:25,752 --> 00:26:31,351
Speaker 2: it would have been February maybe March nineteen eighty seven,

444
00:26:31,671 --> 00:26:34,992
Speaker 2: and the cult got raided in August nineteen thirty seven.

445
00:26:35,311 --> 00:26:36,992
Speaker 1: Interesting correlation of timeline.

446
00:26:37,032 --> 00:26:39,231
Speaker 2: There isn't it, Yes, yeah, it is.

447
00:26:43,232 --> 00:26:46,591
Speaker 1: Up Next, Ben reveals how Anne used LSD and other

448
00:26:46,712 --> 00:26:50,351
Speaker 1: drugs as a tool to manipulate and control children in

449
00:26:50,431 --> 00:26:54,912
Speaker 1: her cult, including him, and described just how far Anne's

450
00:26:54,952 --> 00:27:02,952
Speaker 1: influence extended. As I mentioned, some of the high profile

451
00:27:03,032 --> 00:27:07,431
Speaker 1: people involved in the cult were doctors and psychiatrists, And

452
00:27:07,552 --> 00:27:10,792
Speaker 1: you have mentioned that LSD played quite a role in

453
00:27:11,552 --> 00:27:14,472
Speaker 1: the sect members' lives. You didn't get to that point

454
00:27:14,512 --> 00:27:16,951
Speaker 1: because there was some kind of age limit put in

455
00:27:17,032 --> 00:27:20,192
Speaker 1: place for the children to use LSD, but you were

456
00:27:20,512 --> 00:27:24,471
Speaker 1: put on quite a few other prescription medications. Can you

457
00:27:24,552 --> 00:27:27,792
Speaker 1: talk to me about why the children were medicated and

458
00:27:27,952 --> 00:27:31,272
Speaker 1: how that was weaponized against them at times?

459
00:27:33,591 --> 00:27:40,432
Speaker 2: It's a very insightful question. And yes, had psychiatrists, psychologists

460
00:27:40,712 --> 00:27:44,272
Speaker 2: around her and what was fascinating. I mean you take

461
00:27:44,992 --> 00:27:52,351
Speaker 2: the Wichika and John McKay, they were both psychiatrists that

462
00:27:52,552 --> 00:27:58,151
Speaker 2: were and I think Wichika from memory was actually given

463
00:27:58,311 --> 00:28:01,391
Speaker 2: the authority by the government to put together a body

464
00:28:01,472 --> 00:28:05,431
Speaker 2: that would analyze the effect of self regulation around the

465
00:28:05,512 --> 00:28:09,432
Speaker 2: USAID LSD. Once again, we're talking the sixties even now,

466
00:28:10,351 --> 00:28:13,791
Speaker 2: psychiatry saying you can microdose on LSD and it can

467
00:28:13,831 --> 00:28:16,711
Speaker 2: be beneficial for major mental issues. Well back then the

468
00:28:16,831 --> 00:28:19,552
Speaker 2: CIA and we go into it, but I overspeak this,

469
00:28:19,752 --> 00:28:22,752
Speaker 2: but LSD was seen as a way to be able

470
00:28:22,752 --> 00:28:26,071
Speaker 2: to help people. Okay, comes into Australia supply line. See

471
00:28:26,071 --> 00:28:27,752
Speaker 2: the Australian government says, let's have a look at this.

472
00:28:28,391 --> 00:28:31,671
Speaker 2: They put witch Care in charge. But he works at

473
00:28:31,792 --> 00:28:34,952
Speaker 2: new Haven Hospital and got a connection there with the matron,

474
00:28:35,631 --> 00:28:38,632
Speaker 2: has access to all these patients and has access to

475
00:28:38,792 --> 00:28:43,911
Speaker 2: LSD and began to utilize this to control people and

476
00:28:44,192 --> 00:28:46,392
Speaker 2: threaten people. If you don't fall in line with me,

477
00:28:46,431 --> 00:28:48,471
Speaker 2: I'll put you to new Haven Hospital? And did that?

478
00:28:49,152 --> 00:28:51,992
Speaker 1: Did she do that to her husband's ex wife?

479
00:28:52,392 --> 00:28:56,032
Speaker 2: So that's exactly what happened. She arrived there and was

480
00:28:56,112 --> 00:29:00,592
Speaker 2: given appropriate care because she was poor girl. Was tormented

481
00:29:00,671 --> 00:29:04,711
Speaker 2: and struggling. So yes, that was done and used that

482
00:29:05,392 --> 00:29:09,911
Speaker 2: and look you eat Sarah Moore Sarah Hamilton byrn's book

483
00:29:09,911 --> 00:29:12,152
Speaker 2: on Seen Unheard I know, and she documents what she

484
00:29:12,272 --> 00:29:17,912
Speaker 2: went through. It's tormenting. I mean a watch was done

485
00:29:17,952 --> 00:29:20,072
Speaker 2: to her what she went through. And lester Man who

486
00:29:20,352 --> 00:29:24,951
Speaker 2: was responsible for investigating and was put in charge by

487
00:29:25,032 --> 00:29:27,512
Speaker 2: the Victorian police. Eventually there are others, but he eventually

488
00:29:27,712 --> 00:29:29,632
Speaker 2: was the detective in charge of this. It was able

489
00:29:29,632 --> 00:29:33,592
Speaker 2: to erectradda and he did a lot of interviews, hundreds

490
00:29:33,632 --> 00:29:38,431
Speaker 2: of hours of interviews, had those tapes his synopsis so on.

491
00:29:38,552 --> 00:29:40,392
Speaker 2: Man if she's one of the most evil people that

492
00:29:40,472 --> 00:29:43,152
Speaker 2: ever lived. Some of the stuff she did to people

493
00:29:43,192 --> 00:29:45,312
Speaker 2: when they were under LSD, Sarah was one of those.

494
00:29:45,392 --> 00:29:48,312
Speaker 2: It's nothing short of criminal, nothing short of criminals. She

495
00:29:48,512 --> 00:29:52,911
Speaker 2: used it to manipulate, to control. You do that to

496
00:29:53,112 --> 00:29:56,432
Speaker 2: a fourteen to sixteen year old when their brains still

497
00:29:56,472 --> 00:29:59,912
Speaker 2: be informed. LSD affects the frontal part of the brain

498
00:30:00,152 --> 00:30:04,512
Speaker 2: that's not developed to twenty five. You have flashbacks. You

499
00:30:05,112 --> 00:30:10,031
Speaker 2: physically assault people with weapons during that time and violate them.

500
00:30:10,312 --> 00:30:13,352
Speaker 2: You're going to control people, You're going to really wire them.

501
00:30:13,472 --> 00:30:16,632
Speaker 2: You're going to do things to them that are that's wicked,

502
00:30:16,952 --> 00:30:19,872
Speaker 2: and that's what I used. She used understood the power

503
00:30:20,032 --> 00:30:24,312
Speaker 2: of psychotropics. She understood what she could do with them,

504
00:30:24,671 --> 00:30:29,552
Speaker 2: as many spiritual people do. You'll follow many, many religions

505
00:30:29,592 --> 00:30:32,232
Speaker 2: throughout the world, and there's the use of lotions and

506
00:30:32,352 --> 00:30:36,352
Speaker 2: potions and putting people into an altered state of consciousness

507
00:30:36,431 --> 00:30:38,632
Speaker 2: that opens the door. You know, one of the words

508
00:30:38,671 --> 00:30:42,711
Speaker 2: of witchcraft is farmer care pharmaceuticals. You're able to get

509
00:30:42,752 --> 00:30:45,952
Speaker 2: into an altered state of consciousness where demons can get

510
00:30:45,992 --> 00:30:49,672
Speaker 2: in and do things, as well as change the biochemical

511
00:30:50,312 --> 00:30:53,592
Speaker 2: neural paths of people, especially the forward of views. So

512
00:30:54,431 --> 00:30:56,352
Speaker 2: it was wicked in this. As I said, yes, I

513
00:30:56,512 --> 00:30:59,792
Speaker 2: was on medication and to this day, I really don't

514
00:30:59,832 --> 00:31:02,232
Speaker 2: know the effect of it. I don't know. I'd know

515
00:31:02,352 --> 00:31:05,352
Speaker 2: that I was very photosensitive to light. I know I

516
00:31:05,552 --> 00:31:06,072
Speaker 2: was very.

517
00:31:07,512 --> 00:31:10,072
Speaker 1: That brings me to my next question, because you talk

518
00:31:10,072 --> 00:31:13,232
Speaker 1: about other people getting involved, because other people did ask

519
00:31:13,392 --> 00:31:15,152
Speaker 1: questions over the years, and you would have come in

520
00:31:15,232 --> 00:31:17,911
Speaker 1: contact with the outside world because you did on occasion

521
00:31:18,192 --> 00:31:21,232
Speaker 1: leave the property and interact with the public, but you

522
00:31:21,352 --> 00:31:23,992
Speaker 1: were told or scripted things to say to people, and

523
00:31:24,552 --> 00:31:28,192
Speaker 1: you were told to remain as unseen, unheard and unknown

524
00:31:28,232 --> 00:31:32,272
Speaker 1: as possible. But what would happen if people came to

525
00:31:32,392 --> 00:31:35,632
Speaker 1: the property. I know there's that footage of a journalist

526
00:31:35,712 --> 00:31:38,232
Speaker 1: in the eighties who's come to ask questions and she says,

527
00:31:38,272 --> 00:31:40,471
Speaker 1: are their children here? And they say no, there's no

528
00:31:40,632 --> 00:31:44,672
Speaker 1: children here. They deny everything. Where were you guys when

529
00:31:44,712 --> 00:31:48,352
Speaker 1: people would come to the property and ask questions downstairs?

530
00:31:49,632 --> 00:31:54,032
Speaker 2: So the entry to the property which maimore Channel nine

531
00:31:54,112 --> 00:31:57,632
Speaker 2: I believe who's remained a friend for decades after so

532
00:31:57,752 --> 00:32:00,472
Speaker 2: she took a real interest begain investigating. She came asked

533
00:32:00,472 --> 00:32:03,112
Speaker 2: the questions we were do answer it. There are other times,

534
00:32:03,592 --> 00:32:08,832
Speaker 2: especially when I think a girl missing her father ended

535
00:32:08,911 --> 00:32:11,512
Speaker 2: up actually going. I think she was taken to New Zealand.

536
00:32:12,112 --> 00:32:15,392
Speaker 2: The mother was connected to the cult. He began so

537
00:32:15,512 --> 00:32:17,711
Speaker 2: obviously as a father make a lot of noise about that,

538
00:32:18,032 --> 00:32:21,312
Speaker 2: and police came looking around. And when that happened, there

539
00:32:21,431 --> 00:32:23,872
Speaker 2: was a period of a couple of years I think

540
00:32:24,431 --> 00:32:28,512
Speaker 2: where we would get police randomly coming. We were told

541
00:32:28,592 --> 00:32:30,511
Speaker 2: what to say to them. We were told we were

542
00:32:30,592 --> 00:32:32,992
Speaker 2: to tell them we went to certain schools at night.

543
00:32:33,072 --> 00:32:36,552
Speaker 2: We'd be removed from our bed and find ourselves woken up.

544
00:32:36,872 --> 00:32:39,992
Speaker 2: Hid it under the house. We go through the boys room,

545
00:32:40,072 --> 00:32:42,152
Speaker 2: through a pump room, through a small hole in the wall,

546
00:32:42,832 --> 00:32:44,792
Speaker 2: which in the book I've got a bit of a

547
00:32:44,872 --> 00:32:47,511
Speaker 2: mudmap of that to show people, and you'd wake up

548
00:32:47,671 --> 00:32:51,272
Speaker 2: in the dark, fearful. The police told that they'd take

549
00:32:51,352 --> 00:32:53,191
Speaker 2: us away and ran us in the lake with bags

550
00:32:53,232 --> 00:32:57,152
Speaker 2: and whatever else, and set up the outside world as

551
00:32:57,392 --> 00:33:00,472
Speaker 2: to be a place to be scared of. The authorities

552
00:33:00,552 --> 00:33:03,912
Speaker 2: were evil, they were going to hurt us. We were

553
00:33:03,952 --> 00:33:07,671
Speaker 2: safe with her, So that was the mentality that we

554
00:33:07,872 --> 00:33:12,352
Speaker 2: had the use of psychotropics and the rest to control

555
00:33:12,392 --> 00:33:13,192
Speaker 2: the manipulator.

556
00:33:13,872 --> 00:33:17,072
Speaker 1: Can we talk about the many faces of nn Hamilton Burne,

557
00:33:17,592 --> 00:33:20,792
Speaker 1: because when I first saw a picture of her, she

558
00:33:20,952 --> 00:33:23,392
Speaker 1: was not what I expected her to look like. And

559
00:33:23,552 --> 00:33:26,392
Speaker 1: when I first saw footage of her, it wasn't what

560
00:33:26,472 --> 00:33:29,112
Speaker 1: I expected. Because we are brought up to believe that

561
00:33:29,272 --> 00:33:34,031
Speaker 1: evil exists in a monstrous package, and Anne was far

562
00:33:34,152 --> 00:33:36,671
Speaker 1: from that. She was beautiful, She was very cultured, she

563
00:33:36,792 --> 00:33:40,272
Speaker 1: was very well put together. In footage, she seems very

564
00:33:40,752 --> 00:33:45,072
Speaker 1: happy and lighthearted, and she seems really adoring of you

565
00:33:45,192 --> 00:33:49,431
Speaker 1: as her children. How do you think she was able

566
00:33:49,632 --> 00:33:54,072
Speaker 1: to exist as that person and also as the person

567
00:33:54,192 --> 00:33:57,392
Speaker 1: you describe the master manipulator and the one who would

568
00:33:58,032 --> 00:33:59,312
Speaker 1: control absolutely.

569
00:33:59,952 --> 00:34:03,152
Speaker 2: And they lived side by side the ability with a

570
00:34:03,592 --> 00:34:06,632
Speaker 2: sociopath or psychopath. And I think in the book I

571
00:34:06,792 --> 00:34:10,392
Speaker 2: try and lay out what other attributes of a psychopath,

572
00:34:10,872 --> 00:34:13,431
Speaker 2: and I think I match that this ability where to

573
00:34:13,592 --> 00:34:18,151
Speaker 2: live in two worlds. Disability, this awareness of they can

574
00:34:18,232 --> 00:34:22,191
Speaker 2: do things to people with no conscience because they see

575
00:34:22,232 --> 00:34:26,872
Speaker 2: the end result justifies the means. So most of us

576
00:34:27,911 --> 00:34:31,872
Speaker 2: have some level of moral code that says that's off limits,

577
00:34:32,392 --> 00:34:35,872
Speaker 2: that's not appropriate. I've just violated someone's face. I've just

578
00:34:36,072 --> 00:34:39,712
Speaker 2: taken away their autonomy. You know, I'm a missionary in

579
00:34:39,792 --> 00:34:43,472
Speaker 2: an Asia specific nation. There's a default respect for a minister.

580
00:34:44,112 --> 00:34:47,911
Speaker 2: That can be very dangerous because therefore it means if

581
00:34:47,951 --> 00:34:51,752
Speaker 2: someone's in need, I can use that respect immediately to

582
00:34:51,792 --> 00:34:56,272
Speaker 2: control them. So when you build this and it's spoken

583
00:34:56,312 --> 00:34:59,111
Speaker 2: about how abuse happens to children, Okay, so you get

584
00:34:59,152 --> 00:35:02,152
Speaker 2: an adult that comes in saying I want to help you,

585
00:35:02,951 --> 00:35:07,392
Speaker 2: but there's this power base where you can manipulate and

586
00:35:07,551 --> 00:35:13,031
Speaker 2: use your power incorrectly. So a sociopath, a psychopath has

587
00:35:13,112 --> 00:35:17,272
Speaker 2: no qualms about doing that. They don't think twice. In fact,

588
00:35:17,312 --> 00:35:20,392
Speaker 2: they perfect the art of that to realize that the

589
00:35:20,471 --> 00:35:22,672
Speaker 2: outcomes I'm after are so important, I don't care the

590
00:35:22,752 --> 00:35:28,432
Speaker 2: collateral damage. I see people as a farm to field,

591
00:35:29,192 --> 00:35:32,031
Speaker 2: not as an army to equip. I see what I

592
00:35:32,112 --> 00:35:33,752
Speaker 2: can get out of them, I see what I can

593
00:35:33,872 --> 00:35:36,712
Speaker 2: use to them for my master plan. And they perfect

594
00:35:36,752 --> 00:35:38,272
Speaker 2: the art of being able to do that. And that's

595
00:35:38,312 --> 00:35:40,631
Speaker 2: how you look at what is a psychopath And then

596
00:35:40,712 --> 00:35:42,712
Speaker 2: looking what I did, I said, I believe it, So

597
00:35:42,752 --> 00:35:44,272
Speaker 2: I put that in the book, a bit of a chart.

598
00:35:44,752 --> 00:35:47,471
Speaker 2: That's what I believe she is and she wants. It's

599
00:35:47,511 --> 00:35:49,711
Speaker 2: a great question there, Claire, This ability to be able

600
00:35:49,752 --> 00:35:54,352
Speaker 2: to be so warm, so loving, so caring, and yet

601
00:35:54,392 --> 00:35:58,312
Speaker 2: at the same time so manipolative. Well, sociopaths psychopaths have

602
00:35:58,431 --> 00:35:59,032
Speaker 2: that ability.

603
00:35:59,672 --> 00:36:04,112
Speaker 1: You've already mentioned your sisters who ran away or escaped.

604
00:36:05,152 --> 00:36:09,471
Speaker 1: Over the years, they would come together and go to

605
00:36:09,592 --> 00:36:13,511
Speaker 1: police and tell them that children were definitely being abused

606
00:36:14,232 --> 00:36:17,632
Speaker 1: at ky Lama, and in fact they had collected physical,

607
00:36:17,752 --> 00:36:20,991
Speaker 1: documented evidence to prove that that was happening, so that

608
00:36:21,112 --> 00:36:24,792
Speaker 1: they would not be able to say we checked and

609
00:36:24,951 --> 00:36:28,151
Speaker 1: there was nothing happening. They had actual proof. So can

610
00:36:28,232 --> 00:36:31,232
Speaker 1: you take us to that day in the eighties, nineteen

611
00:36:31,232 --> 00:36:34,192
Speaker 1: eighty seven when you were about to head off to

612
00:36:34,232 --> 00:36:36,591
Speaker 1: boarding school. This was your ticket out of ky Lamba, right,

613
00:36:36,632 --> 00:36:38,832
Speaker 1: you were ready to roll and all of a sudden

614
00:36:39,312 --> 00:36:40,672
Speaker 1: police have surrounded the property.

615
00:36:41,792 --> 00:36:44,991
Speaker 2: So that process didn't happen overnight, as you said. So

616
00:36:45,352 --> 00:36:48,152
Speaker 2: one of the girls ran away, that was the eldest,

617
00:36:48,632 --> 00:36:50,911
Speaker 2: ended up getting herself a job doing what she had

618
00:36:50,991 --> 00:36:54,312
Speaker 2: to do another one of them, so she got thrown

619
00:36:54,352 --> 00:36:57,792
Speaker 2: out of the culture because her relationship with and had

620
00:36:57,832 --> 00:37:01,712
Speaker 2: become quite difficult. She was doing year twelve. She was

621
00:37:01,792 --> 00:37:05,511
Speaker 2: living in a down not to set property closer in

622
00:37:05,632 --> 00:37:10,591
Speaker 2: Melbourne Upper Frenchuriy Gully, and Anne was controlling her by

623
00:37:10,712 --> 00:37:16,431
Speaker 2: removing her access to toilets to function, so she's Her

624
00:37:16,511 --> 00:37:18,872
Speaker 2: response had always been one of amellion, that's just how

625
00:37:18,951 --> 00:37:24,192
Speaker 2: Sarah functioned. I refused to comply, so she forced a confrontation.

626
00:37:25,192 --> 00:37:28,792
Speaker 2: Over the years when Anne was trying to take us

627
00:37:28,872 --> 00:37:32,511
Speaker 2: out of the greenhouse and put us into the real world.

628
00:37:33,152 --> 00:37:35,631
Speaker 2: The girl she thought the best things finishing school for them,

629
00:37:35,752 --> 00:37:38,232
Speaker 2: let them go and learn dancing. So went down to

630
00:37:38,551 --> 00:37:42,111
Speaker 2: the Kenlowell's school at the foot hills of Fergi Gully.

631
00:37:42,152 --> 00:37:45,431
Speaker 2: I think it was both servily and formed good friendships

632
00:37:45,471 --> 00:37:48,471
Speaker 2: with the two sisters. Those two sisters and allowed them

633
00:37:48,511 --> 00:37:50,551
Speaker 2: to spend a weekend with them. They realized what they

634
00:37:50,592 --> 00:37:52,632
Speaker 2: were going through was horrific, and I think that triggered

635
00:37:53,312 --> 00:37:56,832
Speaker 2: their determination. Well, what happened here when Sarah began to

636
00:37:56,991 --> 00:37:59,392
Speaker 2: rebel against what Anne was doing, is she invited one

637
00:37:59,431 --> 00:38:04,112
Speaker 2: of these girls mothers to a cult property, which unseen

638
00:38:04,152 --> 00:38:06,911
Speaker 2: on heard I've known you don't do. She did it

639
00:38:07,072 --> 00:38:10,312
Speaker 2: again to force a confrontation and got kicked out, and

640
00:38:10,592 --> 00:38:13,711
Speaker 2: so of course she went to live with Kathy Fern.

641
00:38:14,272 --> 00:38:17,072
Speaker 2: Kathy's best friend happened to be a lady called Helen Jabond,

642
00:38:17,112 --> 00:38:19,232
Speaker 2: who's a prior to investigator, a Christian, who had a

643
00:38:19,272 --> 00:38:22,031
Speaker 2: lot of documentation on Anne and began to show that

644
00:38:22,152 --> 00:38:24,911
Speaker 2: to help her get her head around. Then another one

645
00:38:24,951 --> 00:38:27,552
Speaker 2: of the girls had gone to boarding school, her parents

646
00:38:27,632 --> 00:38:31,232
Speaker 2: had given her some money and she was living with

647
00:38:31,352 --> 00:38:34,551
Speaker 2: a non cult member going to Brighton Grammar. So the

648
00:38:34,632 --> 00:38:39,071
Speaker 2: three of them got together and had asked for the

649
00:38:39,192 --> 00:38:41,752
Speaker 2: rule book, which we'd managed to get there down there.

650
00:38:41,832 --> 00:38:45,192
Speaker 2: How that worked and yet the day where it happened.

651
00:38:45,872 --> 00:38:48,592
Speaker 2: The rule book had been stolen, the ants had realized

652
00:38:48,632 --> 00:38:51,792
Speaker 2: things are getting out of control. They'd been stuff going

653
00:38:51,872 --> 00:38:54,071
Speaker 2: on and Bill having to burn had been sent back

654
00:38:54,152 --> 00:38:57,031
Speaker 2: to calm the farm. See everyone, it's all settled. Your

655
00:38:57,072 --> 00:39:00,232
Speaker 2: behavior selves, I'm here. The video that many people saw

656
00:39:00,392 --> 00:39:02,712
Speaker 2: man singing was brought back to say she loves us,

657
00:39:02,792 --> 00:39:04,991
Speaker 2: We're here and everything's okay. I'm going to come back

658
00:39:05,072 --> 00:39:07,272
Speaker 2: for you, all that sort of stuff.

659
00:39:07,431 --> 00:39:09,392
Speaker 1: Because she was overseas at the time, and she would

660
00:39:09,392 --> 00:39:11,352
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time overseas. She didn't spend a

661
00:39:11,392 --> 00:39:13,431
Speaker 1: huge amount of time at Kylam. Her aunt's kind of

662
00:39:13,471 --> 00:39:14,392
Speaker 1: handled everything right.

663
00:39:14,632 --> 00:39:16,991
Speaker 2: That's right, And even when she was in Australiay, she'd

664
00:39:16,991 --> 00:39:19,392
Speaker 2: spend time day to Melbourne, close to the cult, going

665
00:39:19,471 --> 00:39:21,471
Speaker 2: on to side to keep lunch on the different nights,

666
00:39:21,511 --> 00:39:25,352
Speaker 2: so we rarely see her anyway. Bill had spent two

667
00:39:25,392 --> 00:39:27,631
Speaker 2: weeks with us. He sort of camp stuffed out as

668
00:39:27,712 --> 00:39:29,352
Speaker 2: much as possible. We were going to go out on

669
00:39:29,431 --> 00:39:32,672
Speaker 2: a housefolk that day, which rarely ever happened. This is incredible,

670
00:39:32,752 --> 00:39:35,272
Speaker 2: going to go on a picnic at seven thirty in

671
00:39:35,312 --> 00:39:38,551
Speaker 2: the morning, and that's that's the day when the three

672
00:39:38,672 --> 00:39:41,991
Speaker 2: girls had gone to the police with the documents, as

673
00:39:42,072 --> 00:39:46,192
Speaker 2: she said, they'd realized there was a genuine domestic violence

674
00:39:46,272 --> 00:39:49,431
Speaker 2: case happening. So I think it was the CPS, the

675
00:39:49,872 --> 00:39:53,912
Speaker 2: community policing squad from not a wanding organized a hundred

676
00:39:53,911 --> 00:39:57,152
Speaker 2: police to descend and get us out of there. So,

677
00:39:57,672 --> 00:40:00,312
Speaker 2: as you said, my head, by this stage it was

678
00:40:00,352 --> 00:40:03,111
Speaker 2: no longer belonde and had been turned to my natural color,

679
00:40:03,551 --> 00:40:06,232
Speaker 2: and I knew I was on the fast path to leading.

680
00:40:06,712 --> 00:40:10,632
Speaker 2: So we're doing our hathy yoga meditation, we're here running

681
00:40:11,232 --> 00:40:13,151
Speaker 2: stand on the steps leading down to where we were

682
00:40:13,192 --> 00:40:16,352
Speaker 2: in the boys room downstairs. And thought it might have

683
00:40:16,431 --> 00:40:19,592
Speaker 2: been the ants quickly assumed the right position, the right location,

684
00:40:19,752 --> 00:40:22,511
Speaker 2: and these strangers turn up and it's on for young

685
00:40:22,592 --> 00:40:25,792
Speaker 2: and old. So they had trying to work out what happened.

686
00:40:26,792 --> 00:40:30,232
Speaker 2: I think it was one of the girls. I'd have

687
00:40:30,352 --> 00:40:32,832
Speaker 2: to think back, but they were there to say, hey,

688
00:40:32,872 --> 00:40:35,671
Speaker 2: it's okay, we're here, we're going to help you. Come

689
00:40:35,752 --> 00:40:37,591
Speaker 2: out with us. We've got a bus. It's all going

690
00:40:37,672 --> 00:40:39,392
Speaker 2: to be okay. We're going to rescue you. So the

691
00:40:39,471 --> 00:40:41,872
Speaker 2: thought of being rescued was why would we need to

692
00:40:41,872 --> 00:40:45,512
Speaker 2: be rescued? And as you said, I'm planning on leaving anyway.

693
00:40:46,272 --> 00:40:48,991
Speaker 2: And so when they took us upstairs out to the bus,

694
00:40:49,112 --> 00:40:52,151
Speaker 2: so I remember grabbing a hold of the balustrade at

695
00:40:52,192 --> 00:40:55,591
Speaker 2: the top, not letting go, and as I cover the

696
00:40:55,632 --> 00:40:57,832
Speaker 2: book there it was I don't know what was going

697
00:40:57,872 --> 00:40:59,792
Speaker 2: to my brain. I just throw it. I'm not leaving,

698
00:41:00,272 --> 00:41:03,031
Speaker 2: And as you said, I think subconstually I realized I

699
00:41:03,112 --> 00:41:05,272
Speaker 2: already had a ticket out of here. Why would I

700
00:41:05,352 --> 00:41:07,232
Speaker 2: go with these strangers? And then I think I got

701
00:41:07,272 --> 00:41:09,592
Speaker 2: this epiphl or moment of realizing this is the ticket

702
00:41:09,592 --> 00:41:12,272
Speaker 2: out of here. So I just I let go and

703
00:41:12,352 --> 00:41:13,832
Speaker 2: I went with them, And as we drove away, I

704
00:41:13,872 --> 00:41:16,511
Speaker 2: remember saying, you know, a page has been turned. We

705
00:41:16,632 --> 00:41:18,832
Speaker 2: finished one chapter, another one's been started, and ended up

706
00:41:18,872 --> 00:41:23,071
Speaker 2: being almost without overstaying this, but that's what happened. That's

707
00:41:23,112 --> 00:41:25,991
Speaker 2: you know, it was almost like I understood what these

708
00:41:26,312 --> 00:41:28,552
Speaker 2: three sisters of mine had done in avert of comments.

709
00:41:28,592 --> 00:41:30,071
Speaker 2: So it goes going up with us as they had

710
00:41:30,232 --> 00:41:33,672
Speaker 2: rescue us, and now the balls at Arnt Court, what

711
00:41:33,712 --> 00:41:35,631
Speaker 2: are we going to do with this? And that night

712
00:41:35,911 --> 00:41:38,672
Speaker 2: I'm lying in bed where we're down in the reception center,

713
00:41:38,911 --> 00:41:40,752
Speaker 2: I'm on a bunk bed, first time I'd ever been

714
00:41:40,792 --> 00:41:43,671
Speaker 2: in one new pajama's brush teeth, I'd eaten a meal,

715
00:41:43,712 --> 00:41:45,471
Speaker 2: I've been able to go into a kitchen. I'm free,

716
00:41:45,951 --> 00:41:48,312
Speaker 2: and I'm checking through everything I'd said that day, which

717
00:41:48,431 --> 00:41:50,151
Speaker 2: is what you did, unseen, unheard, I know, and had

718
00:41:50,192 --> 00:41:52,552
Speaker 2: I said something I'd get into trouble for which often

719
00:41:52,592 --> 00:41:54,832
Speaker 2: I had in the past. And then I realized, I

720
00:41:54,872 --> 00:41:56,951
Speaker 2: don't have to do this anymore. I'm fruit. I don't

721
00:41:57,031 --> 00:41:59,551
Speaker 2: need to go back. And that to me was when

722
00:41:59,592 --> 00:42:01,352
Speaker 2: I shut the door, when every returning I made a

723
00:42:01,431 --> 00:42:03,392
Speaker 2: decision that night, whatever I needed to do a lot

724
00:42:03,431 --> 00:42:05,191
Speaker 2: to return, I was going to do. I was never

725
00:42:05,272 --> 00:42:05,792
Speaker 2: going back.

726
00:42:09,152 --> 00:42:12,352
Speaker 1: Next, Ben shares what happened when he discovered who his

727
00:42:12,471 --> 00:42:15,951
Speaker 1: biological mother really was, How we tried to foster a

728
00:42:16,031 --> 00:42:19,951
Speaker 1: relationship with her but was immediately shut down. Anne's reign

729
00:42:20,031 --> 00:42:22,631
Speaker 1: of terror extending far beyond the reaches of the Kai

730
00:42:22,712 --> 00:42:26,512
Speaker 1: Lama property. But then later why that would all change

731
00:42:26,911 --> 00:42:36,272
Speaker 1: stay with us. Not long after you are freed, you

732
00:42:36,551 --> 00:42:39,992
Speaker 1: speak to your mum really for the first time, freely

733
00:42:40,031 --> 00:42:43,192
Speaker 1: speaking to her and understanding how you came to be

734
00:42:43,272 --> 00:42:47,711
Speaker 1: in Anne's care. But what was that interaction like, because

735
00:42:47,752 --> 00:42:50,752
Speaker 1: you've grown up in a place that has isolated you

736
00:42:50,872 --> 00:42:54,152
Speaker 1: for thirteen years, you haven't really known affection. You haven't

737
00:42:54,152 --> 00:42:57,551
Speaker 1: really known love, especially not the parental love that is

738
00:42:57,792 --> 00:43:02,272
Speaker 1: such a founding thing for most of us in the

739
00:43:02,352 --> 00:43:04,511
Speaker 1: creation of who we become as humans later on down

740
00:43:04,551 --> 00:43:06,872
Speaker 1: the track, you've been devoid of pretty much all of that.

741
00:43:07,312 --> 00:43:09,192
Speaker 1: You speak to your mum, were you hoping in that

742
00:43:09,392 --> 00:43:14,951
Speaker 1: moment to get that love and to get that connection

743
00:43:15,112 --> 00:43:17,911
Speaker 1: and attachment and tell us what actually happened when you

744
00:43:17,951 --> 00:43:18,631
Speaker 1: did speak to her.

745
00:43:19,112 --> 00:43:21,232
Speaker 2: So one hundred percent, Claire, That's exactly what I was

746
00:43:21,272 --> 00:43:24,031
Speaker 2: hoping for. When I realized very quickly that Anne was

747
00:43:24,072 --> 00:43:26,911
Speaker 2: not my biological mother, great relief. I'm never have to

748
00:43:26,991 --> 00:43:31,312
Speaker 2: go back. I'm free. Then anyone around the age also

749
00:43:31,431 --> 00:43:36,031
Speaker 2: what I'm fourteen fifteen by that stage at another twenty years,

750
00:43:36,031 --> 00:43:39,272
Speaker 2: so anyone between the age of thirty five to fifty five, Lady,

751
00:43:39,792 --> 00:43:41,951
Speaker 2: I'm thinking could be my mother? Who could she be?

752
00:43:42,551 --> 00:43:44,832
Speaker 2: And hoping for that, you know, hoping for that mood.

753
00:43:44,911 --> 00:43:47,272
Speaker 2: I've seen enough movies, I've been enough for an enough

754
00:43:47,312 --> 00:43:49,951
Speaker 2: people to know that this, as you said to Bedrock,

755
00:43:50,312 --> 00:43:53,272
Speaker 2: foundational thing that we all crave and even me growing up.

756
00:43:53,312 --> 00:43:54,951
Speaker 2: I crave that. I crave the love of a mother

757
00:43:55,272 --> 00:43:58,272
Speaker 2: and affection and care and validation as a human being,

758
00:43:58,272 --> 00:43:59,591
Speaker 2: because that's what a lot of it is. It's this,

759
00:44:00,031 --> 00:44:03,072
Speaker 2: it's your being validated as a human being, that you're special,

760
00:44:03,352 --> 00:44:06,272
Speaker 2: that you're important, and they helped to shape your character

761
00:44:06,392 --> 00:44:08,592
Speaker 2: to direct you done in the promos of love anyway.

762
00:44:08,712 --> 00:44:12,272
Speaker 2: So that's what I expected and hopeful when I got

763
00:44:12,511 --> 00:44:16,872
Speaker 2: told that my mother was Joy trevellin aren't you Joy?

764
00:44:17,431 --> 00:44:19,872
Speaker 2: That was a bad day. That was a very bad day.

765
00:44:20,232 --> 00:44:22,312
Speaker 2: And the reason it was a bad day is because

766
00:44:23,232 --> 00:44:26,752
Speaker 2: and in her evil genius had set Joy up to

767
00:44:26,911 --> 00:44:29,271
Speaker 2: be this person that we all hated. She looked after

768
00:44:29,352 --> 00:44:31,951
Speaker 2: the place I had lived in during the week and

769
00:44:32,152 --> 00:44:35,031
Speaker 2: would say to different ones of us, come and spend

770
00:44:35,072 --> 00:44:37,792
Speaker 2: the week with me. When she was in Australia, she'd

771
00:44:37,911 --> 00:44:39,911
Speaker 2: ring Joy, and Joy'd go, no, I don't want to

772
00:44:39,991 --> 00:44:41,951
Speaker 2: spend time with me. We'd stay up there. So you

773
00:44:41,991 --> 00:44:44,752
Speaker 2: can imagine this woman, as far as we're concerned, is

774
00:44:44,792 --> 00:44:47,631
Speaker 2: stopping us from spending time with Anne. We hate her

775
00:44:48,312 --> 00:44:50,511
Speaker 2: even though I met her when I was eleven, so

776
00:44:50,592 --> 00:44:52,272
Speaker 2: I never met her, but Anne set her up to

777
00:44:52,352 --> 00:44:54,991
Speaker 2: be someone to be hated. So when I find out

778
00:44:55,072 --> 00:44:59,232
Speaker 2: she's my mother, that's the backgroone. And then yes, shortly

779
00:44:59,312 --> 00:45:01,512
Speaker 2: after get a phone call from her in a voice

780
00:45:01,632 --> 00:45:04,392
Speaker 2: that I began to learn with Sands, for she put

781
00:45:04,471 --> 00:45:06,431
Speaker 2: this voice on when Anne told her say something, and

782
00:45:06,511 --> 00:45:09,631
Speaker 2: basically your embarrassment to me, and don't bother turning up

783
00:45:09,712 --> 00:45:11,591
Speaker 2: on my doorstep or slammed the door in your face

784
00:45:11,672 --> 00:45:14,872
Speaker 2: of everything you've bothered to do that. And the tragedy

785
00:45:15,031 --> 00:45:18,712
Speaker 2: with that is that my half brother's twelve years older,

786
00:45:19,752 --> 00:45:22,951
Speaker 2: seventeen years older, twenty years older than two of them,

787
00:45:23,471 --> 00:45:25,151
Speaker 2: or in fact that the one who's twelve years old.

788
00:45:25,192 --> 00:45:28,071
Speaker 2: I had quite a good relationship and had understood that

789
00:45:28,112 --> 00:45:31,752
Speaker 2: AD was under controlled her, so we understood this kept

790
00:45:31,832 --> 00:45:34,312
Speaker 2: her relationship with her. He was in his mid twenties.

791
00:45:34,872 --> 00:45:36,511
Speaker 2: He went to see her and got told I think

792
00:45:36,551 --> 00:45:38,271
Speaker 2: I went to see her, or got wrung and said

793
00:45:38,551 --> 00:45:40,632
Speaker 2: if he ended up seeing me, she never speaked to

794
00:45:40,672 --> 00:45:43,312
Speaker 2: him again. And that's what happened. It's like another one

795
00:45:43,392 --> 00:45:46,512
Speaker 2: went to see her in where she's living, talking about

796
00:45:46,592 --> 00:45:48,792
Speaker 2: me and got told the same thing. Don't have anything.

797
00:45:48,832 --> 00:45:50,511
Speaker 2: You're not to talk to him. I don't have anything

798
00:45:50,551 --> 00:45:54,192
Speaker 2: to do with him, his very Fothwright began to challenge

799
00:45:54,312 --> 00:45:57,911
Speaker 2: her and just stopped talking about it. John, my father

800
00:45:58,031 --> 00:46:00,591
Speaker 2: Peter Shinton was back in Australia, sort of stepped in

801
00:46:00,632 --> 00:46:03,551
Speaker 2: when knew him as John Trevellan. He stepped in saying,

802
00:46:03,632 --> 00:46:07,191
Speaker 2: you're upsetting her, please stop talking about this, so okay,

803
00:46:08,112 --> 00:46:10,951
Speaker 2: and had nothing to do with them, So that shut

804
00:46:11,031 --> 00:46:13,872
Speaker 2: down any possibility in me having a relationship with my mother,

805
00:46:14,592 --> 00:46:18,512
Speaker 2: which stayed that way until I think I was about

806
00:46:19,352 --> 00:46:22,191
Speaker 2: thirty three, so almost twenty years ago.

807
00:46:22,832 --> 00:46:25,711
Speaker 1: How do you, then, Ben, go out into the world

808
00:46:26,712 --> 00:46:30,312
Speaker 1: as a free human being. You're a young man, you're

809
00:46:30,592 --> 00:46:33,911
Speaker 1: still at school, You're trying to connect with other kids,

810
00:46:33,951 --> 00:46:36,031
Speaker 1: I imagine your own age, which would have been incredibly

811
00:46:36,072 --> 00:46:38,991
Speaker 1: difficult because you've never connected with kids your own age before,

812
00:46:39,031 --> 00:46:41,991
Speaker 1: despite at times being around twenty eight odd of them

813
00:46:42,712 --> 00:46:45,911
Speaker 1: on the property at Kilama at any one time. How

814
00:46:46,312 --> 00:46:50,591
Speaker 1: do you start to form relationships with people when you

815
00:46:50,872 --> 00:46:53,392
Speaker 1: lack the skills to create relationships with people?

816
00:46:53,991 --> 00:46:54,552
Speaker 2: Very awkward?

817
00:46:54,632 --> 00:46:59,192
Speaker 1: Clear can imagine they must have thought you such an

818
00:46:59,272 --> 00:47:01,711
Speaker 1: oddity when they would first meet you, when you first

819
00:47:01,752 --> 00:47:03,031
Speaker 1: were free. I imagine, yeah.

820
00:47:03,511 --> 00:47:06,152
Speaker 2: And one of those names given to me was psycho

821
00:47:06,672 --> 00:47:09,511
Speaker 2: because I was unpredictable. I mean, I'm trying to process

822
00:47:09,592 --> 00:47:14,872
Speaker 2: relationships with people. I'm unpredictable. At times, I would struggle

823
00:47:14,991 --> 00:47:18,952
Speaker 2: with relating to people. I would get angry very quickly

824
00:47:19,192 --> 00:47:22,872
Speaker 2: when things happened. I couldn't control things. I was socially awkward.

825
00:47:23,272 --> 00:47:24,792
Speaker 2: Some of them are very kind to me. I mean,

826
00:47:24,792 --> 00:47:27,071
Speaker 2: I'd tell one story in the book of a group

827
00:47:27,152 --> 00:47:30,431
Speaker 2: of English students that were my peers, that took me

828
00:47:30,551 --> 00:47:34,232
Speaker 2: on as a English project on the advice of the

829
00:47:34,911 --> 00:47:37,192
Speaker 2: for the English teacher. I was out of some very

830
00:47:37,312 --> 00:47:41,031
Speaker 2: kind people, and they did their very best to integrate me,

831
00:47:41,192 --> 00:47:43,392
Speaker 2: to help me. But I was an oddity, and I

832
00:47:43,471 --> 00:47:45,711
Speaker 2: took a trip around sent Australia, went with a couple

833
00:47:45,752 --> 00:47:47,751
Speaker 2: of friends and came back with no one not due

834
00:47:47,752 --> 00:47:50,671
Speaker 2: to their fault. I just struggled to relate to people

835
00:47:50,712 --> 00:47:53,551
Speaker 2: and connect with them. I lived in such a different world,

836
00:47:53,632 --> 00:47:56,671
Speaker 2: with different values and had nothing in common. So I'm

837
00:47:56,672 --> 00:48:00,031
Speaker 2: going around Central Australia. I'm in tears. One night things

838
00:48:00,072 --> 00:48:02,952
Speaker 2: are blown up and the Peter Frost, the math teacher,

839
00:48:03,312 --> 00:48:07,112
Speaker 2: as she said to me, and these your fellow students

840
00:48:07,152 --> 00:48:09,951
Speaker 2: had known each other in year eleven for some of

841
00:48:09,951 --> 00:48:14,511
Speaker 2: them eleven years, you're a new start, you're awkward, you're struggling,

842
00:48:14,832 --> 00:48:16,671
Speaker 2: you need to give it time. I mean they were

843
00:48:16,792 --> 00:48:20,352
Speaker 2: sage wise words, but they didn't help me. So I

844
00:48:20,511 --> 00:48:22,511
Speaker 2: realized when I came back from that trip, I had

845
00:48:22,592 --> 00:48:25,832
Speaker 2: nothing to connect with people like cars, I'd never had

846
00:48:25,911 --> 00:48:30,592
Speaker 2: interest in them, sports, I'd never really followed or known.

847
00:48:31,112 --> 00:48:34,431
Speaker 2: I had no similar experiences. So I had to work

848
00:48:34,511 --> 00:48:37,392
Speaker 2: out how socially awkward I was. And I remember coming

849
00:48:37,431 --> 00:48:40,671
Speaker 2: back going, I feel like I'm sinking in a river

850
00:48:40,951 --> 00:48:42,591
Speaker 2: and I refuse to do and I'm going to find

851
00:48:42,592 --> 00:48:45,431
Speaker 2: out what I need to swim and so whatever it takes,

852
00:48:45,471 --> 00:48:48,471
Speaker 2: I'm going to work that out. And I think in

853
00:48:48,672 --> 00:48:51,472
Speaker 2: year eleven I repeated it when on did year twelve

854
00:48:51,592 --> 00:48:54,632
Speaker 2: sort of struggled through it, struggled with deep depression and

855
00:48:54,712 --> 00:48:58,631
Speaker 2: other things. But yeah, I fortunately had a foster mother

856
00:48:58,712 --> 00:49:01,312
Speaker 2: who was very very good to me. That helped a lot.

857
00:49:01,832 --> 00:49:05,031
Speaker 1: Your foster mother was also born again Christian, yes, and

858
00:49:06,951 --> 00:49:10,192
Speaker 1: faith has become such a big part of the second

859
00:49:10,312 --> 00:49:15,511
Speaker 1: chapter of your life, which I find incredibly interesting. And

860
00:49:16,911 --> 00:49:18,272
Speaker 1: I hope this is not offensive.

861
00:49:19,712 --> 00:49:20,232
Speaker 2: Maine.

862
00:49:20,312 --> 00:49:23,551
Speaker 1: It feels like if you were in a cult, why

863
00:49:23,672 --> 00:49:29,431
Speaker 1: would you seek religion after finding freedom, because religions are

864
00:49:29,712 --> 00:49:32,632
Speaker 1: often spoken about as if they are a cult in

865
00:49:32,752 --> 00:49:37,072
Speaker 1: themselves and would require you to fit into a certain

866
00:49:37,832 --> 00:49:42,272
Speaker 1: belief pattern and belief system. Was that the reason why

867
00:49:42,352 --> 00:49:46,432
Speaker 1: it made sense to you? What was it about faith

868
00:49:46,511 --> 00:49:51,312
Speaker 1: and religion that helped you after being so controlled by

869
00:49:51,392 --> 00:49:52,711
Speaker 1: somebody up to that point?

870
00:49:52,911 --> 00:49:56,352
Speaker 2: Yes, And I would say it's going to have to

871
00:49:56,392 --> 00:49:58,511
Speaker 2: be a bit of a long answer to a very

872
00:49:58,672 --> 00:50:01,272
Speaker 2: well thought out question. There's a couple of things here.

873
00:50:01,392 --> 00:50:04,951
Speaker 2: First thing is throwing the baby out with a bathwater.

874
00:50:06,592 --> 00:50:09,672
Speaker 2: That's part of it. One and did was evil. She

875
00:50:09,951 --> 00:50:13,672
Speaker 2: used the name of Christ to give herself validity. She

876
00:50:13,832 --> 00:50:16,632
Speaker 2: used a belief system. So what I began to realize

877
00:50:17,112 --> 00:50:19,392
Speaker 2: from the shattered perspective of what I'd grown up with,

878
00:50:19,911 --> 00:50:22,791
Speaker 2: how do I fix this now? I didn't go looking

879
00:50:22,872 --> 00:50:25,352
Speaker 2: for God. I didn't go looking for religion. Many of

880
00:50:26,152 --> 00:50:28,192
Speaker 2: us that grew up with this ran to the hills

881
00:50:28,232 --> 00:50:32,031
Speaker 2: as you would. You would assimilate anything to do with

882
00:50:32,551 --> 00:50:37,551
Speaker 2: someone who's giving you boundaries to live within, to be

883
00:50:37,712 --> 00:50:40,991
Speaker 2: destructive and to be evil and to be horrible. But

884
00:50:41,152 --> 00:50:44,671
Speaker 2: we all live within boundaries. They're called laws. We all

885
00:50:44,832 --> 00:50:47,471
Speaker 2: live with a moral code. I worked at IBM. We

886
00:50:47,632 --> 00:50:51,232
Speaker 2: have the one to three nine principle. One vision, three values,

887
00:50:51,352 --> 00:50:54,792
Speaker 2: nine practices. So you have a vision, you have values,

888
00:50:54,832 --> 00:50:56,832
Speaker 2: you have It bleeds through everything. And I began to

889
00:50:56,951 --> 00:51:01,511
Speaker 2: realize that every culture has this underlying a legal tenet cult.

890
00:51:02,192 --> 00:51:04,312
Speaker 2: Now what changes them as to whether they're good or

891
00:51:04,352 --> 00:51:06,992
Speaker 2: bad is to what they are. What is the belief system?

892
00:51:07,672 --> 00:51:10,632
Speaker 2: So why I guess what happened to me becoming a

893
00:51:10,752 --> 00:51:13,392
Speaker 2: Christian is I began to realize that God's not evil.

894
00:51:13,951 --> 00:51:17,832
Speaker 2: He does exist, he has laid out his word. He

895
00:51:17,991 --> 00:51:20,792
Speaker 2: can reach down supernaturally and make a difference in our lives.

896
00:51:21,471 --> 00:51:25,352
Speaker 2: And the explanation also is there's a malignant evil force

897
00:51:25,392 --> 00:51:29,552
Speaker 2: that's there. Can I see that play out? So study

898
00:51:29,632 --> 00:51:32,471
Speaker 2: of history and as this becomes a long, long thing

899
00:51:32,511 --> 00:51:34,431
Speaker 2: which we don't have time for today. But I began

900
00:51:34,551 --> 00:51:38,031
Speaker 2: to really unpack this, look at what had happened to me,

901
00:51:38,232 --> 00:51:41,511
Speaker 2: understand the spiritual influencers behind it. And then God reached out.

902
00:51:41,592 --> 00:51:44,111
Speaker 2: I had a vision of Jesus Christ. My foster mother

903
00:51:44,712 --> 00:51:46,991
Speaker 2: had had an impact. She didn't talk to me about God,

904
00:51:47,072 --> 00:51:49,752
Speaker 2: but I just became curious, began asking questions and Jesus

905
00:51:49,872 --> 00:51:53,591
Speaker 2: Christ met me, I had a vision of him. What happened, though,

906
00:51:53,752 --> 00:51:55,711
Speaker 2: is I then acted on that, And I think that's

907
00:51:55,752 --> 00:51:58,991
Speaker 2: the difference. I had a spiritual experience, but then I

908
00:51:59,072 --> 00:52:00,911
Speaker 2: could look at the word of God and could see

909
00:52:00,951 --> 00:52:03,071
Speaker 2: that that matched that, and then I began to read

910
00:52:03,152 --> 00:52:05,911
Speaker 2: his word, began to live it, began to make it

911
00:52:05,951 --> 00:52:08,551
Speaker 2: part of it for my life. So, as I said,

912
00:52:08,752 --> 00:52:11,631
Speaker 2: I've just leved that, and it's worked and worked very

913
00:52:11,752 --> 00:52:14,312
Speaker 2: very well for me, as it has millions of others.

914
00:52:20,192 --> 00:52:22,752
Speaker 1: While Anne has been nearly six years in her grave,

915
00:52:23,152 --> 00:52:25,392
Speaker 1: it might surprise you to know that the cult we

916
00:52:25,511 --> 00:52:28,752
Speaker 1: know as the Family still exists, and while it may

917
00:52:28,872 --> 00:52:31,832
Speaker 1: not be as influential as it once was, people are

918
00:52:31,911 --> 00:52:35,991
Speaker 1: still seduced by its promises, influenced by its teachings, and

919
00:52:36,112 --> 00:52:39,952
Speaker 1: controlled by its masters. Thank you to Ben for sharing

920
00:52:39,991 --> 00:52:42,191
Speaker 1: his story with us today. His book is called Life

921
00:52:42,272 --> 00:52:44,511
Speaker 1: Behind the Wire. Will include a link to it in

922
00:52:44,592 --> 00:52:48,112
Speaker 1: our show notes. True Crime Conversations is hosted by me

923
00:52:48,312 --> 00:52:52,272
Speaker 1: Claire Murphy and produced by Tarlie Blackman, with audio designed

924
00:52:52,352 --> 00:52:55,272
Speaker 1: by Tom Lyin. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be

925
00:52:55,352 --> 00:52:57,911
Speaker 1: back next week with another True Crime Conversation.