1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,142 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,662 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,702 --> 00:00:26,342 Speaker 1: recorded on It's twenty sixteen in a Pennsylvania court room, 4 00:00:26,902 --> 00:00:29,742 Speaker 1: and Jamie Silvernek has just pled guilty to the first 5 00:00:29,742 --> 00:00:34,582 Speaker 1: degree murder of her mother. She was only fourteen when 6 00:00:34,622 --> 00:00:36,662 Speaker 1: her mum was stabbed to death last year by her 7 00:00:36,702 --> 00:00:40,182 Speaker 1: twenty year old boyfriend, killed because she didn't approve of 8 00:00:40,222 --> 00:00:45,222 Speaker 1: their relationship. She needs to go, Caleb, she'd texted, I 9 00:00:45,302 --> 00:00:49,582 Speaker 1: want her gone. What came next has been described as 10 00:00:49,702 --> 00:00:54,262 Speaker 1: vicious and monstrous. Cheryl died from stab wounds to the 11 00:00:54,302 --> 00:00:57,262 Speaker 1: neck inside her vehicle after she'd driven the couple to 12 00:00:57,302 --> 00:01:00,942 Speaker 1: a concert. They buried her body in the dirt and snow. 13 00:01:02,102 --> 00:01:04,662 Speaker 1: Jamie is being tried in an adult court, not a 14 00:01:04,742 --> 00:01:08,422 Speaker 1: juvenile one, but the judge, citing her intelligence and manipulation 15 00:01:08,502 --> 00:01:13,742 Speaker 1: as reasons, given thirty five years to life, ordered to 16 00:01:13,782 --> 00:01:18,022 Speaker 1: serve her time inside CSI Munsey, a maximum security prison 17 00:01:18,262 --> 00:01:22,182 Speaker 1: home to fourteen hundred female inmates, including one hundred and 18 00:01:22,222 --> 00:01:26,942 Speaker 1: seventy lifers and three on death row. So how has 19 00:01:26,982 --> 00:01:30,662 Speaker 1: she fared after nearly a decade behind bars? Once the 20 00:01:30,702 --> 00:01:33,142 Speaker 1: headlines of her crime were gobbled up by the next 21 00:01:33,182 --> 00:01:37,542 Speaker 1: big murder. This is the story of women incarcerated. What 22 00:01:37,622 --> 00:01:41,022 Speaker 1: life is actually like for women locked up for murder. 23 00:01:46,782 --> 00:01:49,822 Speaker 1: I'm Jimmy Bath and this is True Crime. Conversations a 24 00:01:49,902 --> 00:01:53,782 Speaker 1: Mumma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by 25 00:01:53,782 --> 00:01:56,662 Speaker 1: speaking to the people who know the most about them. 26 00:01:57,062 --> 00:02:01,422 Speaker 1: Men dominate criminality, and that's particularly so when it comes 27 00:02:01,462 --> 00:02:05,942 Speaker 1: to murder, with women responsible for around ten percent of 28 00:02:05,982 --> 00:02:10,262 Speaker 1: the total homicides across Australia, Canada, England and the US. 29 00:02:11,662 --> 00:02:14,742 Speaker 1: Because it's such a small pool, not much study has 30 00:02:14,782 --> 00:02:18,422 Speaker 1: been done into it, but today's guest doctor, Catherine M. Whiteley, 31 00:02:18,622 --> 00:02:21,302 Speaker 1: set out to change that more than twenty years ago. 32 00:02:21,662 --> 00:02:25,222 Speaker 1: Catherine is a feminist criminologist who started her research down 33 00:02:25,342 --> 00:02:28,862 Speaker 1: Under before moving to America, where she currently still resides. 34 00:02:29,542 --> 00:02:32,262 Speaker 1: Over the past two decades, she's become an expert on 35 00:02:32,422 --> 00:02:36,462 Speaker 1: female violent offenders and worked in and around maximum security 36 00:02:36,502 --> 00:02:40,662 Speaker 1: prisons around the world. In particular, she's interested in giving 37 00:02:40,662 --> 00:02:44,062 Speaker 1: these women a voice, in hearing their stories from their 38 00:02:44,062 --> 00:02:47,662 Speaker 1: own mouths. She shared some of the many conversations she's 39 00:02:47,702 --> 00:02:51,982 Speaker 1: had over the years on her podcast, self Identities Conversations 40 00:02:51,982 --> 00:02:56,422 Speaker 1: with Convicted Women alongside her co host aj Nutter. Catherine 41 00:02:56,462 --> 00:03:00,062 Speaker 1: joins us. Now, Catherine, you're a Nassy, but you now 42 00:03:00,062 --> 00:03:03,422 Speaker 1: live in America in and around incarcerated women. How did 43 00:03:03,462 --> 00:03:04,502 Speaker 1: you find yourself there? 44 00:03:04,902 --> 00:03:08,062 Speaker 2: Okay, so going back about eighteen years ago, I applied 45 00:03:08,062 --> 00:03:10,582 Speaker 2: for a position in the United States as a visiting 46 00:03:10,702 --> 00:03:14,022 Speaker 2: professor at one of the universities there. And the reason 47 00:03:14,062 --> 00:03:17,382 Speaker 2: I wanted to do that was because the incarcerated women 48 00:03:17,422 --> 00:03:20,702 Speaker 2: in the cohort that I work with that have committed 49 00:03:20,742 --> 00:03:24,342 Speaker 2: violent crimes, it was a smaller number here, and I thought, well, 50 00:03:24,622 --> 00:03:28,182 Speaker 2: why not reach out and look for a position in 51 00:03:28,222 --> 00:03:31,702 Speaker 2: the United States that would allow to open up doors 52 00:03:31,742 --> 00:03:35,022 Speaker 2: for me to further I think the scholarship and the 53 00:03:35,022 --> 00:03:40,182 Speaker 2: further the education regarding incarcerated women who violently offend. And 54 00:03:40,222 --> 00:03:43,502 Speaker 2: what better place, unfortunately, than to go to the United States. 55 00:03:43,542 --> 00:03:46,902 Speaker 2: So it really was through my work as an academic, 56 00:03:47,542 --> 00:03:50,422 Speaker 2: but it has evolved into much more than that. Now. 57 00:03:50,822 --> 00:03:53,582 Speaker 2: It's a calling for me. However you wish to frame 58 00:03:53,622 --> 00:03:55,742 Speaker 2: that or what that word means to many people, but 59 00:03:56,062 --> 00:03:58,542 Speaker 2: it's a priority my life now and I travel around 60 00:03:58,622 --> 00:04:02,782 Speaker 2: the United States and into various women's make some security 61 00:04:02,822 --> 00:04:06,422 Speaker 2: prisons and even overseas and to Ireland as well, in 62 00:04:06,542 --> 00:04:09,862 Speaker 2: order to just help women in this cohort, the women 63 00:04:09,862 --> 00:04:13,102 Speaker 2: that we see to abandon, help them have a voice, 64 00:04:13,142 --> 00:04:15,742 Speaker 2: a platform for them to have a voice. But that's 65 00:04:15,742 --> 00:04:19,582 Speaker 2: how it started. I had no idea growing up in Queensland, 66 00:04:19,622 --> 00:04:21,982 Speaker 2: in a little town called Dolby the one day I 67 00:04:22,022 --> 00:04:25,542 Speaker 2: would be living in the United States and working with 68 00:04:25,662 --> 00:04:28,582 Speaker 2: women in this cohort to a large capacity. 69 00:04:29,182 --> 00:04:31,822 Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that because looking at the stats 70 00:04:31,862 --> 00:04:35,142 Speaker 1: on female murderers and the statistics that you can pull 71 00:04:35,182 --> 00:04:40,702 Speaker 1: in Australia, you know, your research itself showed largely ethnic minorities, 72 00:04:41,142 --> 00:04:43,502 Speaker 1: young women in that kind of twenty to twenty four 73 00:04:43,542 --> 00:04:47,782 Speaker 1: age bracket is where the majority of these murders are happening, 74 00:04:48,382 --> 00:04:53,782 Speaker 1: subject to socioeconomic handicaps, often single mums, often substance abuse, 75 00:04:53,862 --> 00:04:57,142 Speaker 1: mental health, history of sexual abuse. So that's the top line. 76 00:04:57,502 --> 00:05:00,302 Speaker 1: But you're saying that that is just the top line. 77 00:05:00,342 --> 00:05:02,662 Speaker 2: That is just the top line. I'm really glad you 78 00:05:02,742 --> 00:05:06,142 Speaker 2: pointed that out because I am now seeing the longer 79 00:05:06,182 --> 00:05:08,982 Speaker 2: I have been, and I'm talking about specifically here now 80 00:05:09,022 --> 00:05:13,702 Speaker 2: the United States, I am interacting and engaging with women. 81 00:05:14,182 --> 00:05:16,862 Speaker 2: They're in the mid to late thirties, in their forties, 82 00:05:17,142 --> 00:05:20,262 Speaker 2: and it's a first crime that they have committed. So 83 00:05:20,342 --> 00:05:23,142 Speaker 2: these women have lived some of their life. It's almost 84 00:05:23,182 --> 00:05:27,142 Speaker 2: like I've moved just beyond the information you've provided that 85 00:05:28,462 --> 00:05:31,462 Speaker 2: there are older women now and particularly I want to 86 00:05:31,462 --> 00:05:34,622 Speaker 2: share this in the United States, older women entering the 87 00:05:34,622 --> 00:05:38,302 Speaker 2: prison system, and often it is a first time crime. 88 00:05:38,382 --> 00:05:41,182 Speaker 2: They don't have any history. I've met young women at 89 00:05:41,182 --> 00:05:43,902 Speaker 2: the age of fourteen and a sixteen year old that's 90 00:05:43,942 --> 00:05:46,222 Speaker 2: committed murder. I've met a woman that was in her 91 00:05:46,262 --> 00:05:49,182 Speaker 2: late sixties and early seventies that has committed a murder. 92 00:05:49,502 --> 00:05:51,782 Speaker 2: So how does our criminal justice system work with the 93 00:05:51,782 --> 00:05:57,222 Speaker 2: different demographics, the socioeconomics. So I've been very blessed and 94 00:05:57,342 --> 00:05:59,862 Speaker 2: very privy. It's an eye opener for me, but it's 95 00:05:59,862 --> 00:06:04,462 Speaker 2: a huge learning curve for me about not boxing in 96 00:06:04,742 --> 00:06:08,622 Speaker 2: women that commit violent crimes and specifically murder. 97 00:06:09,102 --> 00:06:11,222 Speaker 1: Can you talk to me about motive because I think 98 00:06:11,222 --> 00:06:14,502 Speaker 1: that that is the biggest question mark and how it 99 00:06:14,542 --> 00:06:18,462 Speaker 1: compares to the other gender. Male versus female motives. Are 100 00:06:18,542 --> 00:06:19,342 Speaker 1: they very different? 101 00:06:19,742 --> 00:06:21,902 Speaker 2: They are different. I mean we could say that a 102 00:06:21,982 --> 00:06:26,062 Speaker 2: male will commit a violent crime for jealousy or financial Well, 103 00:06:26,102 --> 00:06:29,782 Speaker 2: so will a woman. We understand that. But often with 104 00:06:29,942 --> 00:06:33,862 Speaker 2: women you have to reflect, go back to their pathway, 105 00:06:33,982 --> 00:06:38,022 Speaker 2: go back to their youth, their life prior to committing 106 00:06:38,062 --> 00:06:40,982 Speaker 2: the crime, and you'll often find that it is shall 107 00:06:41,022 --> 00:06:44,702 Speaker 2: we say, there is a large percentage of victimization. Now 108 00:06:44,742 --> 00:06:47,902 Speaker 2: that's a very broad term, but often, well you will 109 00:06:47,982 --> 00:06:51,862 Speaker 2: hear or you'll uncover information about women that were victimized 110 00:06:51,902 --> 00:06:58,982 Speaker 2: from neglect, abuse, sexual emotional, physical abuse, etc. The aces which, 111 00:06:59,022 --> 00:07:02,022 Speaker 2: as we know, is the adverse childhood experiences, and that 112 00:07:02,102 --> 00:07:06,062 Speaker 2: particular shall we say number or rate is usually very high. 113 00:07:06,102 --> 00:07:09,622 Speaker 2: So the higher it is shares, the more explicit that 114 00:07:09,662 --> 00:07:12,142 Speaker 2: the women have suffer or as young girls or later 115 00:07:12,142 --> 00:07:15,742 Speaker 2: in life to victimization or abuse and trauma. But with 116 00:07:15,782 --> 00:07:18,382 Speaker 2: the males you don't seem to hear too much about that. 117 00:07:19,062 --> 00:07:20,622 Speaker 2: We've got a lot more to learn in that realm. 118 00:07:20,702 --> 00:07:23,302 Speaker 2: But with the women, that's what I'm finding that there 119 00:07:23,302 --> 00:07:26,862 Speaker 2: are specific, more specific times in their life that there 120 00:07:27,022 --> 00:07:31,062 Speaker 2: was this struggle, this abuse, this trauma from usually someone 121 00:07:31,182 --> 00:07:35,742 Speaker 2: either close to them more rarely from the outside, but 122 00:07:35,782 --> 00:07:37,822 Speaker 2: more internally someone close to them. 123 00:07:37,742 --> 00:07:41,182 Speaker 1: A stat I did find interesting is that even though 124 00:07:41,182 --> 00:07:43,742 Speaker 1: women account for only, you know, about ten percent of 125 00:07:43,862 --> 00:07:47,582 Speaker 1: murders in Western society, they are responsible for around half 126 00:07:47,622 --> 00:07:51,782 Speaker 1: of child homicides. Yes, yes, is that something you've explored 127 00:07:51,822 --> 00:07:52,982 Speaker 1: and tried to understand. 128 00:07:53,182 --> 00:07:55,622 Speaker 2: I have. I would say sixty percent of the women. 129 00:07:55,782 --> 00:07:58,542 Speaker 2: And I'm going to say in the United States, Ye, 130 00:07:58,942 --> 00:08:02,302 Speaker 2: that is my mass cohort. Sixty percent of the women 131 00:08:02,462 --> 00:08:05,422 Speaker 2: that I work with have murdered child. So we're looking 132 00:08:05,462 --> 00:08:08,782 Speaker 2: at we are sixty percent, sixty percent of the women 133 00:08:08,862 --> 00:08:11,782 Speaker 2: that I directly have worked with. So we're looking at 134 00:08:11,822 --> 00:08:16,222 Speaker 2: NEONATA side. We have in field side which oversees Neonata 135 00:08:16,262 --> 00:08:20,942 Speaker 2: side and infanticide. Most of that sixty percent have killed 136 00:08:21,142 --> 00:08:24,062 Speaker 2: infants as opposed to you know, one, two year olds, etc. 137 00:08:24,542 --> 00:08:26,622 Speaker 2: But no, I do I work closely. When I say 138 00:08:26,662 --> 00:08:30,862 Speaker 2: work closely, I research this group and I also include 139 00:08:30,902 --> 00:08:33,462 Speaker 2: them in my other media platforms. 140 00:08:34,062 --> 00:08:37,862 Speaker 1: I think parents will want to understand why are there 141 00:08:38,382 --> 00:08:39,742 Speaker 1: factors that lead to it. 142 00:08:40,222 --> 00:08:42,942 Speaker 2: So if you're looking at a woman that may kill 143 00:08:43,182 --> 00:08:47,582 Speaker 2: murder her baby, a young woman, often young women will 144 00:08:47,662 --> 00:08:50,862 Speaker 2: murder their newborn, and we could say the eighteen to 145 00:08:50,902 --> 00:08:54,302 Speaker 2: twenty five year olds very much NEONATA side, the first 146 00:08:54,342 --> 00:08:58,222 Speaker 2: twelve months. Then you've got infanticide and you'll find it 147 00:08:58,302 --> 00:09:02,262 Speaker 2: usually the woman. And again i'm generalizing here because you know, 148 00:09:03,022 --> 00:09:05,542 Speaker 2: research is fluid, you know what I mean. So, but 149 00:09:05,622 --> 00:09:07,822 Speaker 2: if we take the step further to a woman that 150 00:09:07,862 --> 00:09:12,582 Speaker 2: will kill an infant or you know, a toddler, you're 151 00:09:12,622 --> 00:09:14,862 Speaker 2: often looking at the older, the twenty five to the 152 00:09:14,902 --> 00:09:18,622 Speaker 2: thirty five year age group there and then overall the 153 00:09:18,902 --> 00:09:22,062 Speaker 2: you know, philicide. Then you're looking at possibly a woman. 154 00:09:22,342 --> 00:09:24,222 Speaker 2: It could be a stepchild, it could be you know, 155 00:09:24,262 --> 00:09:27,422 Speaker 2: one of their own biological children as well, so you know, 156 00:09:27,462 --> 00:09:32,142 Speaker 2: it's interesting. The the neonative side is very much askewed 157 00:09:32,142 --> 00:09:36,742 Speaker 2: towards women that are very young or younger. Sometimes it's 158 00:09:36,742 --> 00:09:40,222 Speaker 2: a bit to do with their pregnant at fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, 159 00:09:40,742 --> 00:09:44,582 Speaker 2: scared fear or it's against our belief system, what's going 160 00:09:44,622 --> 00:09:47,342 Speaker 2: to happen to me? Or it could be that they 161 00:09:47,342 --> 00:09:50,982 Speaker 2: have been raped and they don't you know, wish you know, 162 00:09:51,022 --> 00:09:54,342 Speaker 2: to mother the child and the young that's just it. 163 00:09:54,502 --> 00:09:57,302 Speaker 2: They're a younger cohort for the neo nator side. But 164 00:09:57,382 --> 00:09:59,662 Speaker 2: as I said, the infanta side, it's an older, young 165 00:09:59,702 --> 00:10:03,262 Speaker 2: but older cohort and in phil Side. You know, again 166 00:10:03,302 --> 00:10:05,622 Speaker 2: that's killing your child, So that can be a teenager 167 00:10:05,662 --> 00:10:06,742 Speaker 2: that you kill as a mother. 168 00:10:07,902 --> 00:10:11,902 Speaker 1: How have you found the sis in Australia difer to 169 00:10:11,942 --> 00:10:18,142 Speaker 1: those in America when it comes to incarcerations, sentences, rehabilitation, 170 00:10:18,302 --> 00:10:20,582 Speaker 1: and just the general jail experiences of women. 171 00:10:20,862 --> 00:10:24,502 Speaker 2: In the United States, we have a county jail which 172 00:10:24,782 --> 00:10:27,022 Speaker 2: you will spend time there for up to two years, 173 00:10:27,422 --> 00:10:29,782 Speaker 2: and that's a bit like our here in Australia, the 174 00:10:29,862 --> 00:10:33,902 Speaker 2: remand perspective. So you'll be sitting there a woman sitting 175 00:10:33,942 --> 00:10:37,062 Speaker 2: there up to two years, and usually after that, once 176 00:10:37,102 --> 00:10:39,262 Speaker 2: she's committed vild crime, of course she's sitting there, but 177 00:10:39,382 --> 00:10:43,302 Speaker 2: after that you'll find she will be sentenced to go 178 00:10:43,382 --> 00:10:45,982 Speaker 2: to upstate is which what they refer to in America 179 00:10:46,062 --> 00:10:48,862 Speaker 2: is a state prison. Now I work with her in 180 00:10:48,902 --> 00:10:53,302 Speaker 2: closely in Pennsylvania and there are two women's state prisons there. 181 00:10:53,622 --> 00:10:56,302 Speaker 2: The one that I attend mostly is about there's about 182 00:10:56,302 --> 00:10:59,862 Speaker 2: fifteen hundred women incarcerated there and a couple hundred of 183 00:10:59,862 --> 00:11:02,502 Speaker 2: those are women that I interact with that are serving 184 00:11:02,542 --> 00:11:06,622 Speaker 2: life and life without parole. So when you talk about sentencing, 185 00:11:07,342 --> 00:11:10,302 Speaker 2: very different, because a woman that could kill her child 186 00:11:10,542 --> 00:11:13,982 Speaker 2: could be first or second degree. She will possibly receive 187 00:11:14,502 --> 00:11:17,982 Speaker 2: a life sentence which will be the thirty thirty five 188 00:11:18,102 --> 00:11:21,782 Speaker 2: years plus again before any chance. 189 00:11:21,502 --> 00:11:23,822 Speaker 1: Of parole, which is a lot higher than here. 190 00:11:23,982 --> 00:11:28,102 Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, And remember we have life without parole and 191 00:11:28,182 --> 00:11:31,622 Speaker 2: that means never to be released. So there are women 192 00:11:31,702 --> 00:11:33,782 Speaker 2: that have killed the children that I work with that 193 00:11:33,862 --> 00:11:37,742 Speaker 2: they are serving life without parole. You know, we have 194 00:11:38,022 --> 00:11:40,902 Speaker 2: life without parole here, I believe in Australia but it's 195 00:11:41,102 --> 00:11:44,982 Speaker 2: very rare. But in the United States there are a 196 00:11:45,022 --> 00:11:49,062 Speaker 2: lot of young and older women that are serving life 197 00:11:49,062 --> 00:11:53,462 Speaker 2: without parole for such things as philocide and which includes 198 00:11:53,502 --> 00:11:56,022 Speaker 2: in fanticide and neonata side do you. 199 00:11:55,982 --> 00:11:58,262 Speaker 1: Think that and you might not want to answer this, 200 00:11:58,302 --> 00:12:04,102 Speaker 1: but is it a fairer system blocking someone away for life? 201 00:12:04,222 --> 00:12:06,382 Speaker 2: I can bring in a bit of a professional research 202 00:12:06,422 --> 00:12:08,822 Speaker 2: experience there. But there are women that you know the 203 00:12:08,902 --> 00:12:13,342 Speaker 2: ten to fifteen years and understanding their background and understanding 204 00:12:13,422 --> 00:12:17,022 Speaker 2: behind the scenes the criminality, I would honestly say that 205 00:12:17,062 --> 00:12:19,782 Speaker 2: they should not be serving a life or life without parole. 206 00:12:21,022 --> 00:12:23,982 Speaker 2: There are few women that are serving a life sentence 207 00:12:24,022 --> 00:12:26,222 Speaker 2: which will mean, as I said, a very lengthy sentence 208 00:12:26,462 --> 00:12:29,342 Speaker 2: and it doesn't guarantee you're going to get parole. I 209 00:12:29,382 --> 00:12:31,902 Speaker 2: just want to clarify that. To apply for it, that's right, 210 00:12:31,942 --> 00:12:33,942 Speaker 2: you still have to buy, but it doesn't guarantee it. 211 00:12:34,542 --> 00:12:38,462 Speaker 2: There are a smaller group that you're like, I don't 212 00:12:38,502 --> 00:12:41,542 Speaker 2: know what it would feel like if I had lost children, 213 00:12:41,822 --> 00:12:44,982 Speaker 2: if that woman that had killed my children, how would 214 00:12:45,062 --> 00:12:48,182 Speaker 2: I feel? You know so? And I don't condone violence. 215 00:12:48,182 --> 00:12:50,622 Speaker 2: I always like to make that disclaimer. And I haven't 216 00:12:50,702 --> 00:12:54,102 Speaker 2: walked in any of their shoes. But from an outside observation, 217 00:12:54,662 --> 00:12:57,942 Speaker 2: it does vary, and case by case it really does. 218 00:12:58,462 --> 00:13:01,062 Speaker 2: There are women in the United States. If you were 219 00:13:01,102 --> 00:13:04,422 Speaker 2: to parallel the criminality of the crime compared in Australia, 220 00:13:05,462 --> 00:13:08,062 Speaker 2: the women in the United States voluntarily would have been 221 00:13:08,102 --> 00:13:11,742 Speaker 2: released by now. It's a huge difference. But I don't 222 00:13:11,782 --> 00:13:14,462 Speaker 2: like to say one system is better than the other. 223 00:13:14,862 --> 00:13:17,822 Speaker 2: But I do know we do have more of a 224 00:13:18,062 --> 00:13:21,462 Speaker 2: not more, but we do have a more punitive criminal 225 00:13:21,582 --> 00:13:22,302 Speaker 2: justice system. 226 00:13:22,662 --> 00:13:25,542 Speaker 1: There are and it's just fact there are more men 227 00:13:25,742 --> 00:13:29,302 Speaker 1: than women in prison. Does that play a part in 228 00:13:30,062 --> 00:13:32,022 Speaker 1: the facilities the opportunities? 229 00:13:33,382 --> 00:13:37,662 Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely. I'm just diving in it. Does an excuse me? 230 00:13:37,702 --> 00:13:39,462 Speaker 2: I get so passionate about this and there's so much 231 00:13:39,542 --> 00:13:43,062 Speaker 2: to share. It certainly does, but I have to say, 232 00:13:43,102 --> 00:13:46,302 Speaker 2: and again I'm looking at the United States, we're starting 233 00:13:46,342 --> 00:13:51,182 Speaker 2: to be more focused on gender responsive programming, meaning that 234 00:13:51,182 --> 00:13:54,182 Speaker 2: we'll focus more on the female or the woman as 235 00:13:54,182 --> 00:13:57,902 Speaker 2: opposed to what's been like a cookie cutter over the years. 236 00:13:57,942 --> 00:14:01,382 Speaker 2: For many, many decades, it's always whatever we are provided, 237 00:14:01,662 --> 00:14:04,182 Speaker 2: say for the male violent offenders. You know, it was 238 00:14:04,222 --> 00:14:07,742 Speaker 2: almost like a template in the women's you know, prisons. No, 239 00:14:07,902 --> 00:14:10,582 Speaker 2: we have moved beyond that. And again speaking from the 240 00:14:10,662 --> 00:14:13,742 Speaker 2: United States perspective, we still have a long way to go, 241 00:14:14,182 --> 00:14:17,822 Speaker 2: but the women will share that there is improvement. I 242 00:14:17,862 --> 00:14:21,262 Speaker 2: can't say it's not perfect, but there is an awareness 243 00:14:21,342 --> 00:14:24,022 Speaker 2: and we are trying very hard in the United States 244 00:14:24,462 --> 00:14:28,822 Speaker 2: to improve and make sure that the women have ample 245 00:14:29,062 --> 00:14:32,422 Speaker 2: opportunity to include lifers and long term as that can 246 00:14:32,542 --> 00:14:36,462 Speaker 2: receive and study for, you know, a higher education that 247 00:14:36,582 --> 00:14:40,382 Speaker 2: can they call it cosmetology, you know, hairdressing in the 248 00:14:40,502 --> 00:14:44,542 Speaker 2: United States certificates in that rather than the old trades 249 00:14:44,662 --> 00:14:46,182 Speaker 2: like some of the men do, or many of the 250 00:14:46,182 --> 00:14:48,702 Speaker 2: men in the state prisons do. Some of the women 251 00:14:48,742 --> 00:14:50,542 Speaker 2: love trades too, you know, they get up there on 252 00:14:50,582 --> 00:14:52,982 Speaker 2: a ladder and they love all that. Now I'm going 253 00:14:53,022 --> 00:14:56,742 Speaker 2: to go out on a limb here, and it's often family, family. 254 00:14:57,302 --> 00:14:59,742 Speaker 2: And one of the biggest things I've found is the 255 00:14:59,862 --> 00:15:02,422 Speaker 2: neglect is that the women. And we're going to compare 256 00:15:02,422 --> 00:15:05,502 Speaker 2: a little bit about males here, but the women, the babies, 257 00:15:05,622 --> 00:15:09,582 Speaker 2: the mums, the daughters, you know, in visitation everywhere. 258 00:15:09,742 --> 00:15:11,862 Speaker 1: Oh wow, even thought of that, But that makes so 259 00:15:11,942 --> 00:15:12,502 Speaker 1: much sense. 260 00:15:12,662 --> 00:15:14,222 Speaker 2: And this is when we talk about, well, what are 261 00:15:14,262 --> 00:15:17,742 Speaker 2: the women feelings I neglect or abandonment? 262 00:15:17,902 --> 00:15:20,822 Speaker 1: So you're saying their husbands and their support systems stop 263 00:15:20,902 --> 00:15:23,422 Speaker 1: turning up, like they just putting in the effort. 264 00:15:23,302 --> 00:15:26,622 Speaker 2: Eventually, eventually. So if you were to compare and contrast, 265 00:15:26,902 --> 00:15:29,342 Speaker 2: when I go into a female prison again I say 266 00:15:29,382 --> 00:15:31,822 Speaker 2: a state prison, there's usually a couple of thousand women there. 267 00:15:32,262 --> 00:15:35,422 Speaker 2: But it is just amazing. It's a mass of women 268 00:15:35,542 --> 00:15:39,462 Speaker 2: females there and babies and children and youth there. And 269 00:15:39,542 --> 00:15:41,542 Speaker 2: I'm not opposed and I always have to be warried 270 00:15:41,542 --> 00:15:44,102 Speaker 2: about this that men do visit. There are men that 271 00:15:44,262 --> 00:15:47,342 Speaker 2: love their their women to the end. But it's such 272 00:15:47,342 --> 00:15:48,462 Speaker 2: a contrast. 273 00:15:48,062 --> 00:15:50,302 Speaker 1: And it is interesting because I think that says a 274 00:15:50,302 --> 00:15:54,902 Speaker 1: lot about annoyingly the societal tropes that exist in our world, 275 00:15:55,022 --> 00:15:57,662 Speaker 1: the mental load that women take on, and all of 276 00:15:57,662 --> 00:16:00,822 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. It doesn't surprise me that the 277 00:16:00,862 --> 00:16:03,382 Speaker 1: women are the ones pushing visitation in men's prisons and 278 00:16:03,382 --> 00:16:04,542 Speaker 1: the opposite isn't happening. 279 00:16:04,662 --> 00:16:07,062 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And again, you know, there were men that are 280 00:16:07,062 --> 00:16:08,342 Speaker 2: just amazing and are. 281 00:16:08,222 --> 00:16:10,462 Speaker 1: There to the There's always going to be exceptions. 282 00:16:10,302 --> 00:16:13,542 Speaker 2: Are there are? And you know I've engaged with so many, 283 00:16:13,582 --> 00:16:16,262 Speaker 2: But it does. It's just one of those things. When 284 00:16:16,302 --> 00:16:18,302 Speaker 2: someone said to me, what do you take from what 285 00:16:18,342 --> 00:16:20,982 Speaker 2: you do? I said, the observation, the art of observing. 286 00:16:21,502 --> 00:16:25,342 Speaker 1: I've seen you say that you don't seek personal background 287 00:16:25,462 --> 00:16:28,302 Speaker 1: or offending history prior to meeting with women for the 288 00:16:28,342 --> 00:16:29,702 Speaker 1: first time. Why do you do that? 289 00:16:30,022 --> 00:16:32,542 Speaker 2: I think for me it's been like this will set 290 00:16:32,582 --> 00:16:35,862 Speaker 2: me up, judgment, It'll set me up to say, not 291 00:16:35,942 --> 00:16:38,422 Speaker 2: set me up, that's not the term, but it'll I feel. 292 00:16:39,262 --> 00:16:42,542 Speaker 2: It's just like anyone. You read the information first and 293 00:16:42,582 --> 00:16:44,782 Speaker 2: then I'm to go in and ask the woman, and 294 00:16:44,822 --> 00:16:48,582 Speaker 2: it scus the conversation. That's what I always find its 295 00:16:48,582 --> 00:16:50,942 Speaker 2: scus where you know I've read about you. I'm going 296 00:16:50,942 --> 00:16:54,262 Speaker 2: to focus on this area where I love to give 297 00:16:54,302 --> 00:16:57,502 Speaker 2: the women ownership. Well, we call it as agency that 298 00:16:57,582 --> 00:17:01,022 Speaker 2: I'll have some questions, but then they will own the conversation. 299 00:17:01,982 --> 00:17:04,942 Speaker 2: And it's just I just don't want to be skewed. 300 00:17:05,022 --> 00:17:07,902 Speaker 2: I just don't want to narrow the conversation with what's 301 00:17:07,982 --> 00:17:09,702 Speaker 2: best or suits me at the time. 302 00:17:10,182 --> 00:17:12,662 Speaker 1: I'm sure you then do go and eventually find out 303 00:17:12,702 --> 00:17:14,902 Speaker 1: what they did. Have you ever been shocked? 304 00:17:15,822 --> 00:17:19,022 Speaker 2: Well, I tell you, Marjorie deil Armstrong, there was the 305 00:17:19,502 --> 00:17:21,822 Speaker 2: pizza bomber. It's out of there on Netflix, been around 306 00:17:21,822 --> 00:17:24,702 Speaker 2: for a few years. And she had sent a letter 307 00:17:24,822 --> 00:17:27,542 Speaker 2: and she's in Pennsylvania at the time, and she'd asked 308 00:17:27,542 --> 00:17:31,142 Speaker 2: she'd heard about me inside and she said visiting. She said, Hi, 309 00:17:31,142 --> 00:17:32,902 Speaker 2: I'm you know, I'm Marjorie, and I'd like you to 310 00:17:32,942 --> 00:17:35,942 Speaker 2: come visit. And I say, okay, this is great. So 311 00:17:36,142 --> 00:17:38,502 Speaker 2: I had heard I will share with listeners. I did 312 00:17:38,702 --> 00:17:41,222 Speaker 2: ask my husband a little bit about this woman, because 313 00:17:41,462 --> 00:17:43,502 Speaker 2: she does write a big letter and she went on 314 00:17:43,542 --> 00:17:45,622 Speaker 2: and on anyway, so I learned a little bit about 315 00:17:45,662 --> 00:17:47,582 Speaker 2: her before I drove up to visit her for the 316 00:17:47,622 --> 00:17:51,262 Speaker 2: first time. But I'm sitting in this you know, this 317 00:17:51,462 --> 00:17:54,422 Speaker 2: room or you know, a few hundred people and she 318 00:17:54,862 --> 00:17:58,462 Speaker 2: comes down the steps, which they do, and sits beside me, 319 00:17:58,502 --> 00:18:00,982 Speaker 2: and of course she can't touch or feel, and you know, 320 00:18:01,022 --> 00:18:04,302 Speaker 2: we had pleasantries and she had a very loud voice, 321 00:18:04,822 --> 00:18:08,622 Speaker 2: and she's sitting there and during our very first conversation, 322 00:18:09,342 --> 00:18:13,382 Speaker 2: she started to talk about disagreeing and arguing that she 323 00:18:13,542 --> 00:18:15,862 Speaker 2: was charged or she shouldn't have been charged for this 324 00:18:16,222 --> 00:18:19,222 Speaker 2: current crime. But then within the hour and a half 325 00:18:19,262 --> 00:18:21,942 Speaker 2: she's telling me she'd already killed two men before that. 326 00:18:22,462 --> 00:18:26,662 Speaker 2: And I'm like, this is great, Marjorie, okay, And I'm like, 327 00:18:26,982 --> 00:18:28,622 Speaker 2: so I can see in the look in your face. 328 00:18:28,662 --> 00:18:31,382 Speaker 2: It's like, I mean, I wasn't saying this is great magic, 329 00:18:31,462 --> 00:18:34,302 Speaker 2: but I'm thinking to myself, Okay, what if I just 330 00:18:34,462 --> 00:18:37,502 Speaker 2: walked into and you know what, I've written her story. 331 00:18:37,902 --> 00:18:40,222 Speaker 2: I would not take back any the hours and the 332 00:18:40,302 --> 00:18:42,782 Speaker 2: days and the times I met with her. But that 333 00:18:43,022 --> 00:18:45,302 Speaker 2: was my very first visit, and that was as a 334 00:18:45,422 --> 00:18:47,782 Speaker 2: visitor because I thought, I'll go up and I'll spend 335 00:18:47,822 --> 00:18:50,262 Speaker 2: some time. And she reached out to me because I 336 00:18:50,262 --> 00:18:53,622 Speaker 2: do a lot of volunteer work. Yeah, that's my volunteer piece. 337 00:18:53,662 --> 00:18:55,502 Speaker 2: And yeah, so she told me by the end of 338 00:18:55,542 --> 00:18:59,502 Speaker 2: our conversation that she'd actually had killed two other men 339 00:18:59,582 --> 00:19:00,942 Speaker 2: previous multiple people. 340 00:19:01,222 --> 00:19:07,262 Speaker 1: Yes, you're listening to true crime Conversations with me, Jimmy Bath. 341 00:19:07,782 --> 00:19:10,662 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with criminologist and co host of the Self 342 00:19:10,702 --> 00:19:15,542 Speaker 1: Identities podcast, doctor Catherine M. Whiteley. After the break, Catherine 343 00:19:15,542 --> 00:19:19,022 Speaker 1: describes how it feels going into the maximum security prisons 344 00:19:19,382 --> 00:19:25,862 Speaker 1: and if she ever feels scared. Do you ever feel 345 00:19:26,222 --> 00:19:30,662 Speaker 1: scared or uneasy in these conversations because they are they're 346 00:19:30,702 --> 00:19:32,942 Speaker 1: convicted murderers, they've murdered people. 347 00:19:32,662 --> 00:19:35,942 Speaker 2: Yes, they have. No. I may have had one time 348 00:19:35,982 --> 00:19:38,582 Speaker 2: that was here in Australia when I was very green 349 00:19:38,622 --> 00:19:40,502 Speaker 2: and going in for the first time to interfere the 350 00:19:40,542 --> 00:19:43,662 Speaker 2: women for my research for my PhD in the Dane 351 00:19:43,662 --> 00:19:47,342 Speaker 2: Phillis Frost Center. There was one woman that I'd met 352 00:19:48,022 --> 00:19:51,942 Speaker 2: the first time and she brought a little bag with her. 353 00:19:52,142 --> 00:19:53,862 Speaker 2: And I'm embarrassed to say this, and I've said this 354 00:19:53,942 --> 00:19:56,062 Speaker 2: to others, but embarrassed, but I'll share with you. And 355 00:19:56,102 --> 00:19:58,222 Speaker 2: she had a little paper bag with her and there 356 00:19:58,262 --> 00:20:00,902 Speaker 2: was just her and myself in this room, a very 357 00:20:00,942 --> 00:20:05,702 Speaker 2: small room, and she bent down to get something out 358 00:20:05,742 --> 00:20:08,742 Speaker 2: of the bag. For one split second, I thought it 359 00:20:08,862 --> 00:20:11,582 Speaker 2: was so silly and embarrassing. She got a knife or 360 00:20:11,622 --> 00:20:13,982 Speaker 2: something in the here, I mean, and that was wrong. 361 00:20:14,302 --> 00:20:17,942 Speaker 2: But after that was like and immersing myself with these women. 362 00:20:18,222 --> 00:20:20,702 Speaker 2: When I talk to them, I'm not looking at the crime. 363 00:20:21,382 --> 00:20:23,702 Speaker 2: I'm wanting to know more and more about this woman 364 00:20:23,742 --> 00:20:27,142 Speaker 2: sitting opposite me. So I would say that was just 365 00:20:27,182 --> 00:20:31,462 Speaker 2: that one immature moment of my Oh, is she going 366 00:20:31,502 --> 00:20:32,822 Speaker 2: to do something? You're going to pull out of the 367 00:20:32,822 --> 00:20:36,902 Speaker 2: bag because I couldn't see. But because I go into 368 00:20:36,982 --> 00:20:42,382 Speaker 2: many maximum security prisons, particularly in the United States, you 369 00:20:42,462 --> 00:20:44,462 Speaker 2: do have to have your wits about you. And I 370 00:20:44,502 --> 00:20:46,942 Speaker 2: don't mean for the women you're about to meet. I 371 00:20:46,982 --> 00:20:50,542 Speaker 2: mean for the environment. You should never be comfortable with it, 372 00:20:51,022 --> 00:20:53,182 Speaker 2: but you do attune yourself to what's around you. You 373 00:20:53,182 --> 00:20:54,942 Speaker 2: don't just walk in there and think, you know, Hi, 374 00:20:55,022 --> 00:20:57,902 Speaker 2: I'm here and no one's going to touch her or harass. 375 00:20:58,542 --> 00:21:01,182 Speaker 2: My problem is sometimes I get lost in where I 376 00:21:01,222 --> 00:21:03,582 Speaker 2: am in the prison. Yeah, I forget where I am 377 00:21:03,662 --> 00:21:08,462 Speaker 2: literally because it comes from years of experience and just 378 00:21:09,302 --> 00:21:12,142 Speaker 2: feeling comfortable and say, I feel comfortable in a women's 379 00:21:12,182 --> 00:21:16,222 Speaker 2: maximum security prison, but I feel okay, I feel protected, 380 00:21:16,302 --> 00:21:16,982 Speaker 2: I feel okay. 381 00:21:17,182 --> 00:21:19,622 Speaker 1: What about in a men's prison? For a comparison, do 382 00:21:19,662 --> 00:21:21,022 Speaker 1: you feel scared and uneasy there? 383 00:21:21,142 --> 00:21:23,462 Speaker 2: Well, that is a different Yes. You know, I won't 384 00:21:23,502 --> 00:21:27,102 Speaker 2: research in male prisons because I don't research men, but 385 00:21:27,142 --> 00:21:31,662 Speaker 2: I often take criminology criminal justice students into the men's 386 00:21:31,702 --> 00:21:35,662 Speaker 2: maximum security prisons again in Pennsylvania, and there's one of 387 00:21:35,662 --> 00:21:39,222 Speaker 2: the main classification centers, it's called SCI Camp Hill. I've 388 00:21:39,262 --> 00:21:41,862 Speaker 2: taken groups of students into that and there's a few 389 00:21:41,862 --> 00:21:44,662 Speaker 2: thousand men there and they do walk around. They're in 390 00:21:44,862 --> 00:21:48,022 Speaker 2: what we call general population, and I have students that 391 00:21:48,102 --> 00:21:51,822 Speaker 2: almost cringe and you know, but that would possibly be 392 00:21:52,382 --> 00:21:55,902 Speaker 2: the time that I'm always well and truly have my 393 00:21:55,942 --> 00:21:59,382 Speaker 2: wits about me, because it's not an environment I'm familiar with. 394 00:21:59,702 --> 00:22:02,222 Speaker 2: But I've been doing this for so long now it's like, well, 395 00:22:02,222 --> 00:22:03,702 Speaker 2: what prison am I going to next? You know what 396 00:22:03,742 --> 00:22:05,862 Speaker 2: I mean? And I shouldn't be smiling or laughing, but 397 00:22:06,542 --> 00:22:08,902 Speaker 2: I do have a wonderful time engaging with the women. 398 00:22:09,382 --> 00:22:12,262 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk about some of their stories, 399 00:22:12,302 --> 00:22:17,622 Speaker 1: but firstly, tell me about SCI month Sy. It's the 400 00:22:17,622 --> 00:22:20,462 Speaker 1: prison you've spent, you know, this large chunk of time 401 00:22:20,502 --> 00:22:22,702 Speaker 1: in talking to women. What's it like there? 402 00:22:22,902 --> 00:22:27,022 Speaker 2: How strict is it well? It is. From the outside, 403 00:22:27,342 --> 00:22:30,622 Speaker 2: it looks like an old college campus and in the 404 00:22:30,702 --> 00:22:34,142 Speaker 2: hills in the mountains. So when you're driving up, you 405 00:22:34,182 --> 00:22:38,262 Speaker 2: see this very old, old cement brick building in the middle, 406 00:22:38,302 --> 00:22:42,782 Speaker 2: and it's surrounded by walkways and greenery, and then you really, 407 00:22:43,062 --> 00:22:46,902 Speaker 2: if it didn't have the barbed wire fence, you possibly think, well, 408 00:22:46,902 --> 00:22:50,142 Speaker 2: that looks a bit like a school or an older college, 409 00:22:50,182 --> 00:22:53,142 Speaker 2: you know, a smaller older college from an American perspective. 410 00:22:53,782 --> 00:22:55,822 Speaker 2: When you arrive there, and of course you're going through 411 00:22:55,862 --> 00:22:58,982 Speaker 2: the gate and different things like this, it has a 412 00:22:59,062 --> 00:23:03,142 Speaker 2: feel and they have purposely worked towards making it feel 413 00:23:03,582 --> 00:23:06,062 Speaker 2: comfortable for many of the women. So you've got women 414 00:23:06,102 --> 00:23:08,862 Speaker 2: walking around, You've got some women that doing trade and 415 00:23:08,942 --> 00:23:12,142 Speaker 2: doing gardening on the outside of the parimeters. But it 416 00:23:12,222 --> 00:23:15,502 Speaker 2: isn't an isolated area in a rural area. There you 417 00:23:15,702 --> 00:23:18,822 Speaker 2: have so many different buildings. I do want to share 418 00:23:18,822 --> 00:23:20,902 Speaker 2: a bit of a comparison compared to years ago when 419 00:23:20,942 --> 00:23:24,062 Speaker 2: I was at the Dame Frost Center in Melbourne. The 420 00:23:24,142 --> 00:23:26,862 Speaker 2: women there showed me their little houses and their huts. 421 00:23:27,702 --> 00:23:31,942 Speaker 2: That is very much the Australian shall we say environment, 422 00:23:32,182 --> 00:23:34,982 Speaker 2: where in the United States it's still more the buildings 423 00:23:35,022 --> 00:23:37,902 Speaker 2: in the cells, right, and even at Sci Munsey, you know, 424 00:23:37,982 --> 00:23:41,822 Speaker 2: with fifteen anywhere between fourteen hundred and fifteen hundred women, 425 00:23:42,182 --> 00:23:45,382 Speaker 2: you've got some old buildings, some new buildings. The grounds 426 00:23:45,422 --> 00:23:48,102 Speaker 2: are immaculate, but they don't have like when I went 427 00:23:48,142 --> 00:23:50,582 Speaker 2: to you know, many years ago, into the Dane Phyllis 428 00:23:50,582 --> 00:23:53,742 Speaker 2: Frost Center. You know, I'm like, wow, these little homes 429 00:23:53,742 --> 00:23:56,902 Speaker 2: are really women's little homes. You know, they have their 430 00:23:57,222 --> 00:24:00,382 Speaker 2: their you know, their lounge, their kitchen, their bedrooms. But 431 00:24:00,502 --> 00:24:04,102 Speaker 2: in Sci Munsey they don't have that as such. 432 00:24:04,302 --> 00:24:07,542 Speaker 1: It's more traditional. What you'd say on tay sell the bars, 433 00:24:07,582 --> 00:24:08,662 Speaker 1: maybe a cell mate. 434 00:24:08,742 --> 00:24:10,982 Speaker 2: Well, it is traditional, and I don't sort of say 435 00:24:11,022 --> 00:24:13,662 Speaker 2: it sells bars and there's you know, it's all doom 436 00:24:13,662 --> 00:24:17,662 Speaker 2: and gloom. But you are right. They have facilities that 437 00:24:17,862 --> 00:24:21,502 Speaker 2: are just the one or two women to a sell traditional, absolutely, 438 00:24:22,182 --> 00:24:25,182 Speaker 2: but they also have newer buildings to some new buildings 439 00:24:25,262 --> 00:24:29,702 Speaker 2: that they're trying to cater for more women and more engagements. 440 00:24:29,782 --> 00:24:32,182 Speaker 2: So yeah, it is it's a bit like traditional versus 441 00:24:32,302 --> 00:24:35,582 Speaker 2: what we have here to some degree in the Australian system. 442 00:24:35,902 --> 00:24:39,942 Speaker 1: I want to talk about Marilyn. She was nineteen when 443 00:24:39,942 --> 00:24:43,022 Speaker 1: she was arrested for murder. She's been in prison for 444 00:24:43,382 --> 00:24:47,942 Speaker 1: more than fifty years, correct, and she's now in her seventies. Yes, 445 00:24:48,622 --> 00:24:50,342 Speaker 1: can we start with what she did? What was she 446 00:24:50,422 --> 00:24:51,102 Speaker 1: sentenced for. 447 00:24:51,662 --> 00:24:56,382 Speaker 2: Marilyn and a male co accomplice committed murder. They killed 448 00:24:56,622 --> 00:25:00,742 Speaker 2: at close range to young law enforcement officers. So they 449 00:25:00,822 --> 00:25:04,862 Speaker 2: killed and it is the death penalty originally really for yes, 450 00:25:04,862 --> 00:25:07,782 Speaker 2: if you kill a law enforcement officer. So they were 451 00:25:07,782 --> 00:25:11,822 Speaker 2: on the run, they had stolen good they had gone 452 00:25:11,862 --> 00:25:17,942 Speaker 2: from Pennsylvania to interstate and when apprehended by state troopers, 453 00:25:18,302 --> 00:25:22,262 Speaker 2: Marilyn shot at close range a law enforcement officer. It's 454 00:25:22,302 --> 00:25:25,662 Speaker 2: a tough one because I'm going to say this, these 455 00:25:25,742 --> 00:25:29,302 Speaker 2: young law enforcement officers had a child, of children and 456 00:25:29,822 --> 00:25:32,182 Speaker 2: they didn't go home. Yes, it's a first degree murder. 457 00:25:32,302 --> 00:25:35,342 Speaker 2: You you know, if you kill shoot a law enforcement officer. 458 00:25:36,382 --> 00:25:40,342 Speaker 1: So she's grown up behind bars. She spent her entire 459 00:25:40,422 --> 00:25:43,182 Speaker 1: adult life, Yes, in prison. What's that being like? 460 00:25:43,422 --> 00:25:46,102 Speaker 2: What is it? The age of five, she was raped 461 00:25:46,662 --> 00:25:49,222 Speaker 2: and continue all the way to fifteen. She was sexually 462 00:25:49,262 --> 00:25:52,022 Speaker 2: abused and her mother was violent towards her as well. 463 00:25:52,142 --> 00:25:54,862 Speaker 2: So when you think about that environment, we always talk 464 00:25:54,942 --> 00:25:57,742 Speaker 2: about the pathway to criminality, which is what I try 465 00:25:57,782 --> 00:26:00,222 Speaker 2: to do with the women. So fifteen, then she became 466 00:26:00,342 --> 00:26:02,942 Speaker 2: pregnant and then her parents said, well, you're either going 467 00:26:02,982 --> 00:26:07,302 Speaker 2: to give the child up illegally bought the child, or 468 00:26:07,342 --> 00:26:11,262 Speaker 2: marry the person. So she married a particular gentleman, had 469 00:26:11,262 --> 00:26:15,902 Speaker 2: a beautiful baby girl that fell through. She became involved 470 00:26:16,462 --> 00:26:19,182 Speaker 2: with this man that was her co accomplice. So she 471 00:26:19,262 --> 00:26:22,542 Speaker 2: went into the prison system at nineteen. Now they did 472 00:26:22,582 --> 00:26:25,142 Speaker 2: seek the death penalty, but then that was appealed and 473 00:26:25,222 --> 00:26:28,782 Speaker 2: dropped and she's now serving life without parole. And yes, 474 00:26:28,822 --> 00:26:31,382 Speaker 2: she has been there for fifty two years. I think 475 00:26:31,422 --> 00:26:33,702 Speaker 2: she is one of the longest definitely in Pennsylvania, one 476 00:26:33,742 --> 00:26:36,982 Speaker 2: of the longest serving women there. Her life. It's very 477 00:26:36,982 --> 00:26:39,982 Speaker 2: interesting when you listen to her talk. What she basically 478 00:26:40,062 --> 00:26:46,142 Speaker 2: said is that prison, a state correctional facility, gave her 479 00:26:46,302 --> 00:26:50,102 Speaker 2: a new life, gave her life. In general, she's not 480 00:26:50,182 --> 00:26:53,222 Speaker 2: being abused, you know what I mean. There's always trauma 481 00:26:53,262 --> 00:26:55,782 Speaker 2: and there's always things happening. But she is like you 482 00:26:55,782 --> 00:26:58,062 Speaker 2: could say, one of the older or the old brigade. 483 00:26:58,102 --> 00:27:02,622 Speaker 2: Now she is an artist, and oh incredible artist. She 484 00:27:02,662 --> 00:27:06,142 Speaker 2: immerses herself into the prison culture. In other words, she's 485 00:27:06,182 --> 00:27:09,422 Speaker 2: been a mentor, she has worked on the Puppy program, 486 00:27:09,422 --> 00:27:13,902 Speaker 2: which is part of the Rehbuldy potative programs there. But literally, 487 00:27:14,382 --> 00:27:17,902 Speaker 2: it's ironic to say this prison saved her life. It 488 00:27:18,022 --> 00:27:20,982 Speaker 2: gave her back a life because when you think about it, 489 00:27:21,462 --> 00:27:26,102 Speaker 2: rape molestation, abuse growing up and not having anyone to 490 00:27:26,182 --> 00:27:31,702 Speaker 2: acknowledge that because they were literally the abusers. Going into prison, 491 00:27:32,182 --> 00:27:35,182 Speaker 2: she started her life all over again. But fifty two years, 492 00:27:35,502 --> 00:27:38,382 Speaker 2: she will never be released. She's going to die there. 493 00:27:38,462 --> 00:27:39,782 Speaker 1: Does she want to be released? 494 00:27:40,662 --> 00:27:45,222 Speaker 2: We only touch on that. If she was released, and 495 00:27:45,302 --> 00:27:48,102 Speaker 2: I don't want to put words into her mouth, she 496 00:27:48,142 --> 00:27:52,302 Speaker 2: would find it rather challenging to navigate the real. 497 00:27:52,102 --> 00:27:53,902 Speaker 1: World, especially in her seventies. Now. 498 00:27:54,062 --> 00:27:59,982 Speaker 2: Absolutely now her husband passed away recently and I don't 499 00:27:59,982 --> 00:28:02,062 Speaker 2: know how that would impact, you know, if she still 500 00:28:02,342 --> 00:28:05,622 Speaker 2: wishes to be released. But overall, I'm not going to 501 00:28:05,622 --> 00:28:07,662 Speaker 2: say she's contented because I don't want to speak on 502 00:28:07,662 --> 00:28:10,662 Speaker 2: her behalf. But this is all that she knows. But 503 00:28:10,742 --> 00:28:12,822 Speaker 2: she deals with I love. What I love about her 504 00:28:12,902 --> 00:28:16,862 Speaker 2: is that she deals every day with making sure she 505 00:28:16,902 --> 00:28:19,622 Speaker 2: does the best she can while she has time on 506 00:28:19,622 --> 00:28:20,102 Speaker 2: this earth. 507 00:28:20,302 --> 00:28:23,142 Speaker 1: But even that, you just slipped in her husband. So 508 00:28:23,182 --> 00:28:24,782 Speaker 1: she's been married behind bars. 509 00:28:25,142 --> 00:28:27,742 Speaker 2: Yeah she has been married, and that happened after she 510 00:28:28,062 --> 00:28:32,662 Speaker 2: was incarcerated, so yeah, she's been married behind bars. There 511 00:28:32,702 --> 00:28:36,582 Speaker 2: are women that pen pal. They'll meet someone and next 512 00:28:36,662 --> 00:28:38,822 Speaker 2: minute sometimes you know that they're married or they're getting 513 00:28:38,822 --> 00:28:40,022 Speaker 2: married or something like that. 514 00:28:40,102 --> 00:28:42,582 Speaker 1: It does happen, and I have to ask, but do 515 00:28:42,662 --> 00:28:46,262 Speaker 1: they have can they consummate that marriage? Is that something 516 00:28:46,262 --> 00:28:46,902 Speaker 1: they're allowed to do. 517 00:28:47,102 --> 00:28:50,502 Speaker 2: Whilst no, no, no. 518 00:28:49,662 --> 00:28:52,462 Speaker 1: No, but they do have these lives on the outside 519 00:28:52,502 --> 00:28:53,982 Speaker 1: that they can fall They. 520 00:28:53,862 --> 00:28:56,302 Speaker 2: Certainly do, you know, And I will share that I 521 00:28:56,382 --> 00:28:59,542 Speaker 2: know women that men have reached out to them, and 522 00:28:59,622 --> 00:29:03,102 Speaker 2: I've heard women literally discuss that, oh it's good because 523 00:29:03,302 --> 00:29:06,502 Speaker 2: while I have this person in my life, they pay 524 00:29:06,542 --> 00:29:09,822 Speaker 2: into my bank account that affords me to buy something 525 00:29:09,902 --> 00:29:12,622 Speaker 2: at commas. So there are some women, and I want 526 00:29:12,622 --> 00:29:14,742 Speaker 2: to say that there are some women that you know, 527 00:29:14,822 --> 00:29:17,502 Speaker 2: mistreat the males because it's more like you know, a 528 00:29:17,582 --> 00:29:20,862 Speaker 2: cash cow, shall we say. But most of the women 529 00:29:20,902 --> 00:29:24,022 Speaker 2: I work with, as I said, this smaller cohort every 530 00:29:24,102 --> 00:29:26,822 Speaker 2: day to get up is a gift for them. And 531 00:29:26,862 --> 00:29:30,742 Speaker 2: Marilyn's no different. But she has remorse. She does regret. 532 00:29:31,142 --> 00:29:33,982 Speaker 2: I have to say what she did all those years ago? 533 00:29:34,262 --> 00:29:37,902 Speaker 1: Is that common? You've spoken to hundreds of women. Do 534 00:29:38,022 --> 00:29:40,102 Speaker 1: a lot of them show any remorse? Do they own 535 00:29:40,182 --> 00:29:40,942 Speaker 1: up to what they did? 536 00:29:41,542 --> 00:29:46,542 Speaker 2: Okay, this is interesting from case by case a majority, 537 00:29:46,942 --> 00:29:48,662 Speaker 2: and I don't want to put percentages out there, but 538 00:29:48,662 --> 00:29:51,742 Speaker 2: I'd say seventy percent of the women in our conversations, 539 00:29:52,102 --> 00:29:55,062 Speaker 2: either through my research or through the podcast or the documentary, 540 00:29:55,702 --> 00:29:59,462 Speaker 2: remorse is expressed. Absolutely. But then someone could easily say, well, 541 00:29:59,502 --> 00:30:02,702 Speaker 2: they're remorse will because they got caught, and that could 542 00:30:02,702 --> 00:30:05,382 Speaker 2: be a piece of that. But most of all, I'm 543 00:30:05,422 --> 00:30:07,702 Speaker 2: going to say that most of the women, because they're 544 00:30:07,742 --> 00:30:11,622 Speaker 2: serving long sentences, and many the women that I talk 545 00:30:11,742 --> 00:30:15,702 Speaker 2: to have been in there, you know, twenty thirty, forty years, 546 00:30:15,902 --> 00:30:17,942 Speaker 2: even though there's some that you have only been in 547 00:30:17,982 --> 00:30:19,942 Speaker 2: their ten years and they're going to serve a long sentence. 548 00:30:20,342 --> 00:30:25,182 Speaker 2: Most of those women, they do reflect incarceration and serving 549 00:30:25,262 --> 00:30:27,782 Speaker 2: life or life with that parole. It does give them 550 00:30:27,822 --> 00:30:30,902 Speaker 2: time to reflect it, does, you know, And they will 551 00:30:30,902 --> 00:30:34,062 Speaker 2: share that I've changed, you know, I look back to 552 00:30:34,062 --> 00:30:36,662 Speaker 2: what I did, you know, and it's not about if 553 00:30:36,702 --> 00:30:39,342 Speaker 2: I could have time all over again. I do believe 554 00:30:39,422 --> 00:30:42,062 Speaker 2: a larger percentage of the women serving life in life 555 00:30:42,142 --> 00:30:45,102 Speaker 2: with that parole. When they express remorse, they are serious 556 00:30:45,142 --> 00:30:45,582 Speaker 2: about that. 557 00:30:48,622 --> 00:30:51,662 Speaker 1: Up next, Catherine shares the story of Terry, who was 558 00:30:51,702 --> 00:30:54,742 Speaker 1: incarcerated in her early twenties, as well as the most 559 00:30:54,902 --> 00:31:03,902 Speaker 1: shocking story she's encountered in her work. So Terry was 560 00:31:03,942 --> 00:31:05,662 Speaker 1: the first woman you met when you went inside a 561 00:31:05,782 --> 00:31:08,982 Speaker 1: CI Munci correct. What's her story? She was also arrested 562 00:31:09,022 --> 00:31:10,102 Speaker 1: very young twenty two. 563 00:31:10,582 --> 00:31:14,502 Speaker 2: Yes, Terry is an African American lady and converted to Muslims. 564 00:31:14,542 --> 00:31:16,502 Speaker 2: Since she's been inside and I can share a bit 565 00:31:16,502 --> 00:31:20,822 Speaker 2: about her life there. So Terry was young. She was 566 00:31:22,662 --> 00:31:27,342 Speaker 2: Philadelphia police officer, very new at the job. She became 567 00:31:27,422 --> 00:31:31,222 Speaker 2: involved with a man that was involved with drugs. So 568 00:31:31,502 --> 00:31:36,142 Speaker 2: literally her and her co accomplice went to an apartment 569 00:31:36,182 --> 00:31:40,262 Speaker 2: to some another man's home and it was to be 570 00:31:40,302 --> 00:31:44,222 Speaker 2: about drugs and money. The male that they went to 571 00:31:44,302 --> 00:31:47,022 Speaker 2: visit was shot dead and she played a part in 572 00:31:47,822 --> 00:31:51,662 Speaker 2: doing that. She shares that she originally went there to 573 00:31:51,822 --> 00:31:54,902 Speaker 2: be the accomplice make sure to help it, but she 574 00:31:55,142 --> 00:31:58,902 Speaker 2: openly I have to say I love Terry. I love Terry. 575 00:31:59,182 --> 00:32:03,622 Speaker 2: I don't again condone the heartbreak and every behind the scenes. 576 00:32:03,662 --> 00:32:06,502 Speaker 2: I don't condone that, but I've known her for eighteen 577 00:32:06,622 --> 00:32:11,742 Speaker 2: years now, and she has remorse. She loves to talk. 578 00:32:12,142 --> 00:32:15,582 Speaker 2: She has a nature that's very gentle, but she'll call 579 00:32:15,622 --> 00:32:17,862 Speaker 2: a spade a spade. She'll call me out at times. 580 00:32:17,982 --> 00:32:21,542 Speaker 2: You know. It's a wonderful engagement her experience, and she 581 00:32:21,582 --> 00:32:24,462 Speaker 2: talks a lot about when I write about her, is 582 00:32:24,462 --> 00:32:27,022 Speaker 2: that what it was like for her all those years ago. 583 00:32:27,302 --> 00:32:30,582 Speaker 2: She's an African American woman, but she's also a law 584 00:32:30,662 --> 00:32:34,342 Speaker 2: enforcement officer, okay, and that's not looked upon, you know, 585 00:32:34,662 --> 00:32:37,622 Speaker 2: graciously at all if you're a law enforcement officer and 586 00:32:37,662 --> 00:32:40,782 Speaker 2: you're you know, you kill someone. So she talks a 587 00:32:40,822 --> 00:32:44,102 Speaker 2: little bit about the hardship and the navigation of I'm 588 00:32:44,102 --> 00:32:47,542 Speaker 2: African American and I was a police officer. Usually it's 589 00:32:47,582 --> 00:32:50,422 Speaker 2: me putting these women away and gain. And then she 590 00:32:50,462 --> 00:32:54,342 Speaker 2: talks also about turning to her faith, being a Muslim woman, 591 00:32:54,582 --> 00:32:58,222 Speaker 2: and how that's given her a path. It's amazing. She's 592 00:32:58,862 --> 00:33:01,542 Speaker 2: she is so funny, and she's so loud and vivacious, 593 00:33:01,622 --> 00:33:05,062 Speaker 2: yet she's so gentle, and she again is a wonderful 594 00:33:05,102 --> 00:33:07,382 Speaker 2: mentor see, I go back to the women that are 595 00:33:07,422 --> 00:33:10,582 Speaker 2: serving the longter life sentences or life without parole. She 596 00:33:11,342 --> 00:33:14,502 Speaker 2: had a second degree murder charge and she's serving life 597 00:33:14,502 --> 00:33:15,102 Speaker 2: without parole? 598 00:33:15,182 --> 00:33:16,422 Speaker 1: Is she so she's never getting out. 599 00:33:16,502 --> 00:33:19,502 Speaker 2: She's never getting out. Terry has come before the Board 600 00:33:19,542 --> 00:33:23,302 Speaker 2: of Parole Probation twice, I think now for commutation and 601 00:33:23,342 --> 00:33:26,182 Speaker 2: has been denied. And you can come up for commutation 602 00:33:26,262 --> 00:33:29,622 Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania. I believe for three times, but you have 603 00:33:29,702 --> 00:33:33,382 Speaker 2: to have so many years in between. She was guarded again. 604 00:33:33,902 --> 00:33:36,742 Speaker 2: She has gone through and attended, like many of the women, 605 00:33:37,142 --> 00:33:41,022 Speaker 2: if there's a chance to be parole or commuted, there 606 00:33:41,022 --> 00:33:44,902 Speaker 2: are programs that they have to attend over the years. 607 00:33:45,062 --> 00:33:47,662 Speaker 2: But these are women that have been there twenty thirty years. 608 00:33:47,702 --> 00:33:50,262 Speaker 2: It's like we've been there, done all that. Now we're 609 00:33:50,302 --> 00:33:51,862 Speaker 2: just biding our time. 610 00:33:52,742 --> 00:33:55,222 Speaker 1: I want to move on to Jamie. Jamie Silvernek was 611 00:33:55,222 --> 00:34:00,862 Speaker 1: found guilty of killing her mother when she was fourteen fourteen, yes, fourteen. 612 00:34:01,422 --> 00:34:05,142 Speaker 1: The prosecution said she was the mastermind behind the plot 613 00:34:05,342 --> 00:34:07,702 Speaker 1: and it was her then twenty year old boyfriend who 614 00:34:08,622 --> 00:34:13,702 Speaker 1: stabbed her mother. There's a few interesting things about her story. One, 615 00:34:14,102 --> 00:34:17,262 Speaker 1: she wasn't tried as a juvenile, that wasn't in an 616 00:34:17,302 --> 00:34:19,022 Speaker 1: adult court. How did that even happen? 617 00:34:19,182 --> 00:34:21,982 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, in the United States, you can be as 618 00:34:22,022 --> 00:34:24,702 Speaker 2: young as eleven years old in some states and be 619 00:34:24,742 --> 00:34:27,702 Speaker 2: tried as an adult if it's deemed a first degree 620 00:34:27,942 --> 00:34:31,702 Speaker 2: murder charge. And Jamie was a co accomplice, and she 621 00:34:31,822 --> 00:34:37,342 Speaker 2: also acknowledges she did participate beyond the texting, you know, 622 00:34:37,382 --> 00:34:40,982 Speaker 2: and beyond the narrative back and forth with her co accomplice. 623 00:34:41,342 --> 00:34:46,062 Speaker 2: So Jamie has received thirty five years. That's literally a 624 00:34:46,102 --> 00:34:48,062 Speaker 2: norm if you are shall we say, if you're a 625 00:34:48,182 --> 00:34:50,862 Speaker 2: juvenile and you're charged as an adult, you can serve 626 00:34:50,982 --> 00:34:54,022 Speaker 2: up to the thirty thirty five years before you will 627 00:34:54,062 --> 00:34:57,782 Speaker 2: then be released. Jamie's case, and I'll touch a little 628 00:34:57,782 --> 00:35:01,422 Speaker 2: bit more on the crime. She talks about the remorse 629 00:35:01,502 --> 00:35:04,302 Speaker 2: that she has because she has a brother and a 630 00:35:04,382 --> 00:35:08,182 Speaker 2: father still surviving, and she took the life of her mother. 631 00:35:08,782 --> 00:35:11,302 Speaker 2: And she talks which is and these are her words, 632 00:35:11,342 --> 00:35:14,462 Speaker 2: not mine, because I don't wish at all to sensationalize, 633 00:35:14,582 --> 00:35:18,582 Speaker 2: but she talks about how unexpectedly she still has the 634 00:35:18,622 --> 00:35:22,022 Speaker 2: love and support of her family, considering she took something 635 00:35:22,102 --> 00:35:24,222 Speaker 2: so valuable from them, because it. 636 00:35:24,182 --> 00:35:26,222 Speaker 1: Was a vicious murder. 637 00:35:26,262 --> 00:35:29,102 Speaker 2: It was it was it was a vicious murder. There 638 00:35:29,222 --> 00:35:32,342 Speaker 2: was strangulation, there was bashing, and then the burial of 639 00:35:32,382 --> 00:35:33,022 Speaker 2: her mother. 640 00:35:33,742 --> 00:35:35,822 Speaker 1: How have you found the conversations with her? What was 641 00:35:35,862 --> 00:35:37,822 Speaker 1: meeting her like? Because she would have been quite young 642 00:35:37,822 --> 00:35:38,742 Speaker 1: still when you met her. 643 00:35:39,022 --> 00:35:42,702 Speaker 2: So Jamie was fourteen, just after fourteen when she committed well, 644 00:35:42,742 --> 00:35:45,662 Speaker 2: she entered the prison system. She went to county jail 645 00:35:46,062 --> 00:35:48,142 Speaker 2: for a very short time, because you always will go 646 00:35:48,182 --> 00:35:50,422 Speaker 2: to county jail. As I said before, it's a bit 647 00:35:50,502 --> 00:35:55,062 Speaker 2: like Romand here. Anyways, So when she talks about I 648 00:35:55,102 --> 00:35:57,902 Speaker 2: asked her, I said, well, it's challenging for her to 649 00:35:57,942 --> 00:36:00,302 Speaker 2: have to go back and think, well, what was I 650 00:36:00,342 --> 00:36:03,182 Speaker 2: thinking at fourteen fifteen? Right, and she's early twenties now. 651 00:36:03,662 --> 00:36:05,982 Speaker 2: But she reminds me it was all a blur. There 652 00:36:06,022 --> 00:36:08,982 Speaker 2: was guilt, there was confusion, and she said, an isolation 653 00:36:09,182 --> 00:36:12,062 Speaker 2: in a county jail. It's a county jail for women. 654 00:36:12,182 --> 00:36:14,982 Speaker 2: It's not a detention center by any means. It's a 655 00:36:15,022 --> 00:36:17,902 Speaker 2: county jail. But of course you are separated because you 656 00:36:17,942 --> 00:36:22,022 Speaker 2: are a juvenile from again the general we'll say population there. 657 00:36:22,462 --> 00:36:26,142 Speaker 2: To her, it was just a blur, guilt, crime, depression, 658 00:36:26,942 --> 00:36:29,182 Speaker 2: no doubt, is my life worth it, you know what 659 00:36:29,222 --> 00:36:32,062 Speaker 2: I mean. But she was young, fourteen going quite fifteen. 660 00:36:32,422 --> 00:36:36,462 Speaker 2: So by the time she's turning fifteen, she then goes upstate, 661 00:36:36,702 --> 00:36:40,502 Speaker 2: which is sci Muncie. Again, so within a twelve month 662 00:36:40,622 --> 00:36:44,302 Speaker 2: period someone had mentioned if you heard about doctor Kate 663 00:36:44,382 --> 00:36:46,422 Speaker 2: or doctor Whiteley these you call me doctor Kate. Here 664 00:36:46,462 --> 00:36:49,222 Speaker 2: I go again, have you heard about her? And it 665 00:36:49,302 --> 00:36:52,222 Speaker 2: was so lovely. Her father had heard about me as 666 00:36:52,222 --> 00:36:55,662 Speaker 2: a visitor and the work I do, and again one 667 00:36:55,702 --> 00:36:59,222 Speaker 2: of many parents concerned about his daughter. So I reached 668 00:36:59,222 --> 00:37:03,382 Speaker 2: out to her by her father, so then I would 669 00:37:03,422 --> 00:37:06,942 Speaker 2: visit her and the conversations we'd have about how she 670 00:37:07,022 --> 00:37:10,982 Speaker 2: was adjusting to upstate. Now, there were several years that 671 00:37:11,022 --> 00:37:15,182 Speaker 2: she was in an isolated shall we say, housing, and 672 00:37:15,262 --> 00:37:19,542 Speaker 2: which meant that she could not move about in general population. 673 00:37:19,662 --> 00:37:22,062 Speaker 2: She had to have someone with her twenty four to seven, 674 00:37:22,382 --> 00:37:25,142 Speaker 2: which you can understand she's fourteen fifteen, but. 675 00:37:25,102 --> 00:37:27,822 Speaker 1: It also means quite a lonely existence. 676 00:37:27,542 --> 00:37:30,822 Speaker 2: It was now and that she's in general population all 677 00:37:30,862 --> 00:37:35,902 Speaker 2: these years later. She's really excelled from an educational perspective, 678 00:37:35,902 --> 00:37:39,422 Speaker 2: because she certainly does have high IQ. But talking to 679 00:37:39,462 --> 00:37:43,262 Speaker 2: her about the navigation when she first entered the state prison. 680 00:37:43,702 --> 00:37:46,382 Speaker 2: She said, you know, literally, it was all like a blur, 681 00:37:46,542 --> 00:37:49,622 Speaker 2: but she was depressed, a lot of remorse. 682 00:37:50,502 --> 00:37:52,542 Speaker 1: We're kind of talking about the crimes of these women 683 00:37:52,582 --> 00:37:55,782 Speaker 1: and then not positives, but how they've managed to turn 684 00:37:55,822 --> 00:37:59,142 Speaker 1: their lives around. But it can't all be you know, Roses. 685 00:37:59,702 --> 00:38:03,102 Speaker 1: We know enough about prison to know there's a lot 686 00:38:03,142 --> 00:38:06,182 Speaker 1: of bad stuff that happens in there. There's a high 687 00:38:06,182 --> 00:38:12,782 Speaker 1: concentration of dangerous women as well. Yes, the women you've 688 00:38:12,822 --> 00:38:17,822 Speaker 1: spoken to have they experienced violence, sexual abuse, you know, 689 00:38:18,142 --> 00:38:20,422 Speaker 1: the damages and the bad side of prison. 690 00:38:21,262 --> 00:38:23,302 Speaker 2: All of them have at one stage or another. But 691 00:38:24,062 --> 00:38:29,262 Speaker 2: the longer the women are inside, the less and most 692 00:38:29,262 --> 00:38:33,022 Speaker 2: of them talk about this, the less they are condemning 693 00:38:33,302 --> 00:38:37,342 Speaker 2: their experience of the prison system because a lot of 694 00:38:37,382 --> 00:38:42,062 Speaker 2: reflection has gone on. And there are fights. Absolutely, there 695 00:38:42,102 --> 00:38:46,342 Speaker 2: are fights. There is abuse, certainly, and it's not necessarily 696 00:38:46,342 --> 00:38:48,502 Speaker 2: from the offices, but it can be from the women. 697 00:38:48,822 --> 00:38:49,022 Speaker 1: Oh. 698 00:38:49,422 --> 00:38:54,142 Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sugarcoating anything here, but the women 699 00:38:54,222 --> 00:38:57,942 Speaker 2: that I talk to, some of them worthy abuses. But 700 00:38:58,022 --> 00:39:01,382 Speaker 2: I don't necessarily go down that path unless they wish 701 00:39:01,422 --> 00:39:03,182 Speaker 2: to talk about that. Yeah. 702 00:39:03,262 --> 00:39:06,582 Speaker 1: Absolutely, have you spoken to many women on death row, 703 00:39:06,662 --> 00:39:09,582 Speaker 1: and how are their experiences different to those that are 704 00:39:09,582 --> 00:39:12,582 Speaker 1: going to dying prison. Anyway, with life. 705 00:39:12,302 --> 00:39:14,982 Speaker 2: It's interesting because like what you're referring to here is 706 00:39:15,302 --> 00:39:17,222 Speaker 2: you have women that are serving life with that parole, 707 00:39:17,582 --> 00:39:21,382 Speaker 2: and there are usually all of them in general population now, 708 00:39:22,422 --> 00:39:24,942 Speaker 2: and then you have the women that were on death row. 709 00:39:24,982 --> 00:39:27,462 Speaker 2: And I'll talk about the women on death row in Pennsylvania. 710 00:39:27,862 --> 00:39:31,902 Speaker 2: So I have conversations with three women that were on 711 00:39:32,022 --> 00:39:35,022 Speaker 2: death row. They talk about the comparison of death row, 712 00:39:35,182 --> 00:39:39,662 Speaker 2: their experience the day today, and then they talk about now, 713 00:39:39,782 --> 00:39:42,302 Speaker 2: because they all appealed and won their appeal, they're serving 714 00:39:42,342 --> 00:39:45,302 Speaker 2: life without parole, and it's a bit like the life 715 00:39:45,302 --> 00:39:48,422 Speaker 2: without parole is their freedom. You know. It's amazing when 716 00:39:48,462 --> 00:39:49,662 Speaker 2: you hear their stories, they. 717 00:39:49,582 --> 00:39:51,182 Speaker 1: Still see it like that, even though they know they're 718 00:39:51,182 --> 00:39:51,822 Speaker 1: going to die. 719 00:39:51,742 --> 00:39:55,782 Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, they still you know, again, they don't want 720 00:39:55,822 --> 00:39:57,622 Speaker 2: to die then, and I want to make that very clear. 721 00:39:57,662 --> 00:40:00,062 Speaker 2: And if they could leave tomorrow, they would and there's 722 00:40:00,142 --> 00:40:04,542 Speaker 2: always hope that something will change. Each woman talks about that. 723 00:40:04,822 --> 00:40:07,982 Speaker 2: Now each of the women have killed, one has killed 724 00:40:07,982 --> 00:40:10,622 Speaker 2: a child, one has killed an elderly man. Now that 725 00:40:10,702 --> 00:40:13,782 Speaker 2: it's killed a woman. So it's serious. They have taken 726 00:40:13,822 --> 00:40:17,502 Speaker 2: someone else's life, a loved one's life, so oh, it's amazing. 727 00:40:17,542 --> 00:40:20,422 Speaker 2: But they do talk about the comparisons of what it 728 00:40:20,502 --> 00:40:23,542 Speaker 2: was like there and now in general population. 729 00:40:23,262 --> 00:40:26,022 Speaker 1: Because you are segregated if you're on death. 730 00:40:25,862 --> 00:40:28,462 Speaker 2: Row, well they are separated in a different wing. And 731 00:40:28,542 --> 00:40:31,182 Speaker 2: even in Texas in Mountain View Unit where I went 732 00:40:31,222 --> 00:40:33,502 Speaker 2: there to do research, you know, the death row wing 733 00:40:33,582 --> 00:40:36,662 Speaker 2: is separated, and protocol is that if a woman from 734 00:40:36,662 --> 00:40:38,942 Speaker 2: death Row is being moved or any of the prisons 735 00:40:38,982 --> 00:40:42,102 Speaker 2: over there, you know, everything goes into lockdown so that 736 00:40:42,142 --> 00:40:44,222 Speaker 2: person can go from A to B if it's medical 737 00:40:44,302 --> 00:40:46,662 Speaker 2: or something like that. But they are separated. But the 738 00:40:46,702 --> 00:40:50,262 Speaker 2: women in Pennsylvania do talk about how they had an 739 00:40:50,302 --> 00:40:53,782 Speaker 2: hour a day and what they did, you know. So, yeah, 740 00:40:53,862 --> 00:40:55,142 Speaker 2: it's interesting, isn't it. 741 00:40:55,462 --> 00:40:59,462 Speaker 1: Are there any other cases or women's stories that stand 742 00:40:59,502 --> 00:40:59,942 Speaker 1: out to you. 743 00:41:00,662 --> 00:41:03,022 Speaker 2: There is one young woman I'd like to talk about, 744 00:41:03,062 --> 00:41:06,382 Speaker 2: and her name is Jessica. She was incarcerated at sixteen 745 00:41:06,462 --> 00:41:10,022 Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania as an adult, tried as an adult. She 746 00:41:10,062 --> 00:41:13,862 Speaker 2: grew up not knowing who her mother was. Her grandparents 747 00:41:14,222 --> 00:41:18,382 Speaker 2: raised her. However, she found out in her early teens 748 00:41:18,662 --> 00:41:21,262 Speaker 2: that her mother lived just down the road and not 749 00:41:21,342 --> 00:41:24,062 Speaker 2: knowing that, so she was raised with her aunts and uncles. 750 00:41:24,382 --> 00:41:26,302 Speaker 2: She's very bright, but she said she always had the 751 00:41:26,382 --> 00:41:28,942 Speaker 2: challenge of try to understand where did I fit in? 752 00:41:29,062 --> 00:41:32,022 Speaker 2: I just don't feel you know, this doesn't feel normal 753 00:41:32,022 --> 00:41:34,862 Speaker 2: as a teenager, I don't. It just doesn't feel right 754 00:41:34,862 --> 00:41:38,622 Speaker 2: in the home environment. And yet she loved her grandparents. Anyway, 755 00:41:38,822 --> 00:41:40,862 Speaker 2: She used to hang out with a group and they 756 00:41:40,902 --> 00:41:44,342 Speaker 2: called themselves the Misfits. So there was, you know, someone 757 00:41:44,382 --> 00:41:47,102 Speaker 2: in the early twenties, late teens, and a couple others 758 00:41:47,102 --> 00:41:50,102 Speaker 2: around the fifteen sixteen year olds. So they'd go out 759 00:41:50,182 --> 00:41:52,622 Speaker 2: and they'd go out and drink a little bit of 760 00:41:52,702 --> 00:41:56,782 Speaker 2: drugs and party in wherever and know, somewhere in the country. 761 00:41:57,702 --> 00:42:00,742 Speaker 2: And what happened to Jessica is that she was involved 762 00:42:00,782 --> 00:42:03,382 Speaker 2: then this one particular time, she was involved with the 763 00:42:03,462 --> 00:42:06,182 Speaker 2: murder of a young fourteen fifteen year old girl. This 764 00:42:06,302 --> 00:42:10,822 Speaker 2: young woman, this young girl tragically was beaten. They tried 765 00:42:10,862 --> 00:42:15,102 Speaker 2: to they tried to hang her, that was unsuccessful, and 766 00:42:15,182 --> 00:42:19,862 Speaker 2: then tragically, the participation by Jessica was that she also 767 00:42:20,102 --> 00:42:23,902 Speaker 2: took part by bludgeoning the young girl to death. So 768 00:42:24,062 --> 00:42:26,222 Speaker 2: this is Jessica, and I'm just trying to paint it 769 00:42:26,222 --> 00:42:28,382 Speaker 2: not to be gory or whichever I want to paint 770 00:42:28,422 --> 00:42:31,582 Speaker 2: the picture of her path. So Jessica is one of 771 00:42:31,622 --> 00:42:34,782 Speaker 2: the few that would probably say, well, she acknowledges, and 772 00:42:34,822 --> 00:42:40,782 Speaker 2: she's very intelligent. She acknowledges she participated, but won't acknowledge 773 00:42:41,542 --> 00:42:45,982 Speaker 2: to the extreme of her participation. Now, Jessica has been 774 00:42:46,022 --> 00:42:48,462 Speaker 2: in the system for twenty something years and she will 775 00:42:48,502 --> 00:42:51,742 Speaker 2: be serving at least thirty five years in her early 776 00:42:51,782 --> 00:42:56,382 Speaker 2: fifties when she's released in Pennsylvania. Jessica will talk about 777 00:42:56,382 --> 00:42:58,102 Speaker 2: how she doesn't even know what a credit card is, 778 00:42:58,142 --> 00:43:01,302 Speaker 2: she never drove a car, doesn't know what a cell 779 00:43:01,342 --> 00:43:04,622 Speaker 2: phone or a mobile phone is, has no idea. And 780 00:43:04,662 --> 00:43:07,622 Speaker 2: she talks in the podcast about growing up as a 781 00:43:07,662 --> 00:43:13,422 Speaker 2: teenager in a women maximum security prison, and it's her 782 00:43:13,622 --> 00:43:16,262 Speaker 2: conversation's amazing because you know, there are things that we 783 00:43:16,422 --> 00:43:21,702 Speaker 2: all take for granted, and so her youth literally was 784 00:43:22,102 --> 00:43:25,502 Speaker 2: growing up around other women in a prison, a state prison. 785 00:43:25,902 --> 00:43:29,262 Speaker 1: I want to talk briefly about media coverage. How did 786 00:43:29,262 --> 00:43:31,822 Speaker 1: the women you spoke to feel about the way they 787 00:43:31,822 --> 00:43:34,302 Speaker 1: were written about and spoken about in the media. 788 00:43:35,542 --> 00:43:39,222 Speaker 2: Well, the older women we're going back years ago. Weren't 789 00:43:39,262 --> 00:43:43,222 Speaker 2: that privy because it was like television or hard copy newspaper, right, 790 00:43:43,502 --> 00:43:47,062 Speaker 2: So you've got a difference of storytelling here. Some will 791 00:43:47,102 --> 00:43:49,982 Speaker 2: say that they were always made out to be, you know, 792 00:43:50,382 --> 00:43:53,902 Speaker 2: or she's smiling, or look at her, she's not showing remorse. 793 00:43:54,302 --> 00:43:58,342 Speaker 2: So the perception is that media don't tell the whole story, 794 00:43:58,702 --> 00:44:01,262 Speaker 2: or there are too many people that are experts in 795 00:44:01,302 --> 00:44:03,342 Speaker 2: the field. And I'll give you an example. One of 796 00:44:03,342 --> 00:44:08,142 Speaker 2: the women. She talks about how she's walking into the 797 00:44:08,222 --> 00:44:13,182 Speaker 2: courts in Pennsylvania, walk in and her grandmother was making 798 00:44:13,222 --> 00:44:16,182 Speaker 2: a joke or trying to lessen the pain, knowing that 799 00:44:16,222 --> 00:44:18,582 Speaker 2: she's going in there she may not come out after sentencing. 800 00:44:19,382 --> 00:44:22,022 Speaker 2: And she said, she talks a bit about how the 801 00:44:22,062 --> 00:44:26,102 Speaker 2: media took that one photo of her smiling and laughing, 802 00:44:26,462 --> 00:44:28,742 Speaker 2: how she was going into the courts, and she said 803 00:44:28,742 --> 00:44:32,862 Speaker 2: that was everywhere, you know, coalhearted woman. You know, there 804 00:44:32,862 --> 00:44:35,342 Speaker 2: are terminologies, as I said, I won't say on her, 805 00:44:35,342 --> 00:44:39,302 Speaker 2: but there were words that they used or phrases, you know, monstrous, 806 00:44:39,342 --> 00:44:44,302 Speaker 2: you know, demonic, bad, sick woman, but more evil, you know, 807 00:44:44,422 --> 00:44:48,462 Speaker 2: the monstrous evil narrative is what they use from her. Smiling, 808 00:44:48,542 --> 00:44:50,902 Speaker 2: she said, I really can't even recall what I was 809 00:44:50,982 --> 00:44:53,862 Speaker 2: laughing about, and it certainly wasn't that I'm laughing that 810 00:44:53,902 --> 00:44:56,142 Speaker 2: I'm going to be sentenced now, possibly to life or 811 00:44:56,182 --> 00:44:59,622 Speaker 2: life without parole. The older women, the little that they 812 00:44:59,702 --> 00:45:03,342 Speaker 2: were privy to saddens them because they believed that they 813 00:45:03,342 --> 00:45:05,582 Speaker 2: were showcased, there was a good photo or something in 814 00:45:05,582 --> 00:45:08,982 Speaker 2: a headline. That's what sold their story. Now the younger 815 00:45:09,022 --> 00:45:13,662 Speaker 2: women with social media, you know, they're more exposed now 816 00:45:13,742 --> 00:45:16,902 Speaker 2: because of the social media coming through. And Jamie talks 817 00:45:16,942 --> 00:45:19,462 Speaker 2: a little bit about, you know, about the media and 818 00:45:19,542 --> 00:45:22,822 Speaker 2: how the phrasing around the young killer or the you know. 819 00:45:23,542 --> 00:45:25,982 Speaker 2: All I'm saying is that there is a difference to 820 00:45:26,022 --> 00:45:29,422 Speaker 2: what either woman, you know, the older women or the 821 00:45:29,462 --> 00:45:33,542 Speaker 2: older generation and the newer were privy to because they 822 00:45:33,542 --> 00:45:36,782 Speaker 2: find out now from families and friends what's going on. 823 00:45:37,102 --> 00:45:38,862 Speaker 1: But I would argue that some of what these women 824 00:45:38,862 --> 00:45:42,302 Speaker 1: did is evil. It is monstrous, absolutely, So why can't 825 00:45:42,342 --> 00:45:44,302 Speaker 1: the media use those words to describe them? 826 00:45:44,462 --> 00:45:46,302 Speaker 2: This is what the women say. They don't believe, that 827 00:45:46,542 --> 00:45:49,902 Speaker 2: they don't believe because of a choice they made. They 828 00:45:49,942 --> 00:45:52,902 Speaker 2: don't believe. And it's interesting because some of the women 829 00:45:52,942 --> 00:45:56,782 Speaker 2: will say we made one mistake. Now I'm using their words. 830 00:45:56,822 --> 00:46:00,102 Speaker 2: I'm not justifying by any means, but they will say 831 00:46:00,382 --> 00:46:02,982 Speaker 2: it was just it was a one mistake or it 832 00:46:03,022 --> 00:46:06,102 Speaker 2: was a one off, and they don't believe. For many 833 00:46:06,102 --> 00:46:08,182 Speaker 2: of them, they do not believe that they should have 834 00:46:08,222 --> 00:46:12,702 Speaker 2: been glorified. It's not glorified, but you know, sensationalized with 835 00:46:12,782 --> 00:46:14,902 Speaker 2: that particular shall we say, stereotype. 836 00:46:15,622 --> 00:46:17,822 Speaker 1: It's definitely interesting to hear that's perspective. I do see 837 00:46:17,822 --> 00:46:18,422 Speaker 1: both sides. 838 00:46:18,622 --> 00:46:22,542 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, you know again, because I'm passionate about working 839 00:46:22,542 --> 00:46:24,942 Speaker 2: with these women again, giving them a platform to have 840 00:46:24,982 --> 00:46:27,662 Speaker 2: a voice. You know, there are women that I sit 841 00:46:27,742 --> 00:46:31,502 Speaker 2: beside and I sometimes think, I just really have a 842 00:46:31,502 --> 00:46:33,582 Speaker 2: great time with you. I really enjoy working with you, 843 00:46:34,062 --> 00:46:37,342 Speaker 2: and oh our friendship will go on for years. But 844 00:46:37,382 --> 00:46:39,542 Speaker 2: what I want you to be released tomorrow home and 845 00:46:39,582 --> 00:46:41,902 Speaker 2: sit next to me or live next to me, you know, 846 00:46:41,942 --> 00:46:43,862 Speaker 2: in my home, possibly not you know. 847 00:46:43,862 --> 00:46:45,942 Speaker 1: Real me, because I have wondered that, how do you 848 00:46:46,062 --> 00:46:48,622 Speaker 1: call these women friends knowing what they've done. 849 00:46:48,782 --> 00:46:51,022 Speaker 2: I don't. I'm not looking at what they've done. They're 850 00:46:51,102 --> 00:46:55,022 Speaker 2: inside now that has happened, they're being punished. I wouldn't 851 00:46:55,102 --> 00:46:57,622 Speaker 2: be doing the work that I do if I was 852 00:46:57,782 --> 00:47:01,462 Speaker 2: purely focused on the punishment and the crime that they did. 853 00:47:01,782 --> 00:47:03,142 Speaker 2: And I think, and I'm going to go on a 854 00:47:03,142 --> 00:47:07,342 Speaker 2: limb here, That's why I what I do is unique 855 00:47:08,182 --> 00:47:12,062 Speaker 2: because I am not focusing. And I mean, we all judge. 856 00:47:12,142 --> 00:47:14,222 Speaker 2: It's easy to say I don't judge. I'm sure, well, 857 00:47:14,222 --> 00:47:16,742 Speaker 2: I certainly do. I may have my own thoughts, but 858 00:47:16,862 --> 00:47:19,902 Speaker 2: it's so easy to focus on the crime and criminality 859 00:47:20,382 --> 00:47:23,262 Speaker 2: and then get carried away with that and the sensationalism 860 00:47:23,342 --> 00:47:25,622 Speaker 2: of that. And they're being punished, and they'll tell me, 861 00:47:25,782 --> 00:47:29,662 Speaker 2: you know, we made a mistake, we are being punished, 862 00:47:29,982 --> 00:47:32,622 Speaker 2: we are serving again, we're talking about life and life 863 00:47:32,622 --> 00:47:36,302 Speaker 2: without parole. Okay, so not ten years, fifteen years, or 864 00:47:36,342 --> 00:47:38,702 Speaker 2: five years and we're out. I just think it's a 865 00:47:38,782 --> 00:47:44,062 Speaker 2: very important journey that they have the opportunity. But again, yeah, 866 00:47:44,982 --> 00:47:46,742 Speaker 2: can I say this, it could be you know what 867 00:47:46,822 --> 00:47:49,102 Speaker 2: it is is that it could be any And I 868 00:47:49,142 --> 00:47:52,382 Speaker 2: get passionate about this. So often we think it can't 869 00:47:52,422 --> 00:47:55,662 Speaker 2: be our aunt, our mother, you know, or our sister, 870 00:47:56,302 --> 00:47:58,382 Speaker 2: and then you know, in the United States, I talk 871 00:47:58,422 --> 00:48:01,582 Speaker 2: to my students, my university students or college students and 872 00:48:01,622 --> 00:48:03,622 Speaker 2: I talk particularly to the females, and I think, well, 873 00:48:03,662 --> 00:48:06,342 Speaker 2: you're driving in a car, you're using your phone, your 874 00:48:06,382 --> 00:48:09,302 Speaker 2: career off the road, you kill someone. Now, in the 875 00:48:09,382 --> 00:48:14,222 Speaker 2: United States, it's called verllicular homicide. You can get eight years, 876 00:48:14,262 --> 00:48:17,422 Speaker 2: twelve years, fourteen years, and you'll deem someone that's murdered 877 00:48:17,462 --> 00:48:18,382 Speaker 2: so or killed someone. 878 00:48:18,382 --> 00:48:21,982 Speaker 1: But that is a very different crime to Jamie who 879 00:48:22,702 --> 00:48:25,542 Speaker 1: texted her boyfriend and plotted to kill her mother. 880 00:48:25,862 --> 00:48:27,382 Speaker 2: At the end of the day, it's a different crime. 881 00:48:27,422 --> 00:48:30,222 Speaker 2: But someone has lost their life. Yeah, and that's how 882 00:48:30,262 --> 00:48:32,622 Speaker 2: I look at that. That's a great we have a 883 00:48:32,662 --> 00:48:35,782 Speaker 2: great discussion here. But on that note, I want to share. 884 00:48:36,022 --> 00:48:38,222 Speaker 2: Could I share just an example of a woman that 885 00:48:38,382 --> 00:48:41,942 Speaker 2: suffered from post bubum psychosis And I got to know 886 00:48:41,982 --> 00:48:45,222 Speaker 2: her name was Meg, and it was in Lancaster in 887 00:48:45,262 --> 00:48:48,342 Speaker 2: the United States and Pennsylvania, and she'd killed her two 888 00:48:48,382 --> 00:48:52,902 Speaker 2: little boys and she was sentenced to death, but through 889 00:48:52,902 --> 00:48:55,982 Speaker 2: her court proceedings there was a problem the very beginning 890 00:48:56,022 --> 00:49:00,262 Speaker 2: of for sentencing, so she was released after four years. Now, 891 00:49:00,342 --> 00:49:03,902 Speaker 2: I became very close to Meg or Megan, and she 892 00:49:03,942 --> 00:49:06,542 Speaker 2: always wanted me to share her story. So she had 893 00:49:06,662 --> 00:49:09,382 Speaker 2: killed her little twelve month old baby, and then I 894 00:49:09,422 --> 00:49:12,622 Speaker 2: think it was like to nearly three year old son, 895 00:49:12,742 --> 00:49:16,102 Speaker 2: and she had drowned both of her little boys. But 896 00:49:16,422 --> 00:49:20,862 Speaker 2: she had said if I had had help or sort 897 00:49:20,982 --> 00:49:26,102 Speaker 2: help earlier on in my life, that possibly, no matter 898 00:49:26,142 --> 00:49:28,702 Speaker 2: how much and what I did with the two with 899 00:49:28,702 --> 00:49:31,622 Speaker 2: my two boys and inflict such pain, it may not 900 00:49:31,662 --> 00:49:36,702 Speaker 2: have happened. She suffered from postpartum psychosis, so that's another story. 901 00:49:36,742 --> 00:49:40,622 Speaker 2: But I met her. The tragic ending is she took 902 00:49:40,622 --> 00:49:43,462 Speaker 2: her own life. Months and months later I never heard 903 00:49:43,462 --> 00:49:46,782 Speaker 2: from her, and they found her in a southern state 904 00:49:46,902 --> 00:49:49,342 Speaker 2: in the United States. But once she was released, she 905 00:49:49,502 --> 00:49:54,142 Speaker 2: used to talk about her beautiful boys, remorse absolutely, and 906 00:49:54,342 --> 00:49:56,662 Speaker 2: she was trying to better herself. I even had to 907 00:49:56,702 --> 00:49:58,302 Speaker 2: come in and talk to my students at one of 908 00:49:58,342 --> 00:50:01,622 Speaker 2: the universities I worked at, and I just set the 909 00:50:01,662 --> 00:50:08,702 Speaker 2: premise that this woman has committed murder and you have 910 00:50:08,782 --> 00:50:10,582 Speaker 2: the right to sit here and listen, or you have 911 00:50:10,662 --> 00:50:13,502 Speaker 2: the right to go. And I would say only one 912 00:50:13,582 --> 00:50:18,142 Speaker 2: student got up and walked away, and it was I'm 913 00:50:18,222 --> 00:50:20,502 Speaker 2: just trying to point it was an amazing moment for 914 00:50:20,662 --> 00:50:23,782 Speaker 2: her to share her story about what happened to her, 915 00:50:23,862 --> 00:50:26,622 Speaker 2: what was she going through when she had committed this 916 00:50:26,702 --> 00:50:29,862 Speaker 2: horrendous crime to her two sons. It was amazing. 917 00:50:30,262 --> 00:50:33,662 Speaker 1: Not talking about Meg specifically, but thinking about all the 918 00:50:33,782 --> 00:50:37,782 Speaker 1: stories of these women. I feel like we often try 919 00:50:37,822 --> 00:50:39,822 Speaker 1: and find the reason behind why they did it. It 920 00:50:39,942 --> 00:50:43,262 Speaker 1: can't be that they're just bad or evil? 921 00:50:44,022 --> 00:50:46,662 Speaker 2: Do you know? It's interesting we say that, but maybe 922 00:50:46,702 --> 00:50:48,342 Speaker 2: at the very beginning, I'm not sure if I mentioned 923 00:50:48,782 --> 00:50:51,302 Speaker 2: there is a small cohort of women that are bad, 924 00:50:51,662 --> 00:50:53,542 Speaker 2: and if I didn't mention, I'm going to go out 925 00:50:53,542 --> 00:50:56,462 Speaker 2: and say it. There are there are certainly a small 926 00:50:56,542 --> 00:51:01,782 Speaker 2: cohort of women that will behave and act just the 927 00:51:01,862 --> 00:51:05,142 Speaker 2: same as men. That they are bad, that they are evil, 928 00:51:05,502 --> 00:51:10,862 Speaker 2: and it's by choice, not any psychological rationale something. And 929 00:51:10,982 --> 00:51:12,862 Speaker 2: I may not have said it, but we have a 930 00:51:13,022 --> 00:51:15,262 Speaker 2: tendency over the years, and we still continue to do 931 00:51:15,342 --> 00:51:19,302 Speaker 2: it to pathologize women, to give them the excuse that 932 00:51:19,342 --> 00:51:22,182 Speaker 2: they were mad, as opposed to bad, as opposed to 933 00:51:22,262 --> 00:51:24,342 Speaker 2: some of them being just downright evil, you know what 934 00:51:24,422 --> 00:51:26,902 Speaker 2: I mean. And we can be evil, we can be bad. 935 00:51:26,982 --> 00:51:31,982 Speaker 2: We don't need, shall we say, the pathologization to justify 936 00:51:32,182 --> 00:51:36,142 Speaker 2: or you know, it shouldn't always justify why we committed 937 00:51:36,182 --> 00:51:39,222 Speaker 2: the crime. Now I do have a very few women 938 00:51:39,262 --> 00:51:41,862 Speaker 2: that'll say, if I had to do it again, and 939 00:51:41,902 --> 00:51:44,782 Speaker 2: I'm not talking about children, I'm talking about a partner 940 00:51:44,822 --> 00:51:46,462 Speaker 2: or something like that, I had to do it again, 941 00:51:46,782 --> 00:51:49,542 Speaker 2: I do it all over again. So there is, you know, 942 00:51:49,702 --> 00:51:52,062 Speaker 2: but no, I will certainly say there is a cohort 943 00:51:52,102 --> 00:51:54,702 Speaker 2: of women, a group of women that do choose to 944 00:51:54,782 --> 00:51:56,782 Speaker 2: be bad, that are evil. I mean, I can't get 945 00:51:56,822 --> 00:51:59,782 Speaker 2: my head around what really evil means in that context, 946 00:52:00,502 --> 00:52:02,142 Speaker 2: but there are some women that certainly are and I've 947 00:52:02,182 --> 00:52:03,982 Speaker 2: come across them, and I am. 948 00:52:03,982 --> 00:52:06,182 Speaker 1: Playing devil's advocation because when you do look at the 949 00:52:06,222 --> 00:52:08,662 Speaker 1: male cohort, I mean a lot of the crimes that 950 00:52:08,742 --> 00:52:12,062 Speaker 1: you see men, you know, serial killers, murder, like all 951 00:52:12,142 --> 00:52:15,062 Speaker 1: of these vicious crimes, like they are evil. But I'm 952 00:52:15,702 --> 00:52:18,302 Speaker 1: you know, I guess we can't just let women get away. 953 00:52:18,142 --> 00:52:19,902 Speaker 2: With well, we can't. And I'm not here to do 954 00:52:19,982 --> 00:52:22,302 Speaker 2: that either, as you know, with the work I've met 955 00:52:22,462 --> 00:52:27,342 Speaker 2: and interviewed Sylvia Segrest, a mass shooter from Philadelphia going 956 00:52:27,382 --> 00:52:29,422 Speaker 2: back in the eighties. Now, she's one of the few 957 00:52:29,502 --> 00:52:32,782 Speaker 2: mess killers, shall we say, of females in the United States. 958 00:52:33,382 --> 00:52:36,862 Speaker 2: But Sylvia was diagnosed at the age of fourteen before 959 00:52:36,902 --> 00:52:39,222 Speaker 2: she committed the crime at a shopping center just outside 960 00:52:39,222 --> 00:52:41,822 Speaker 2: of Philadelphia in the eighties. She was at the age 961 00:52:41,862 --> 00:52:45,422 Speaker 2: of fourteen diagnosed with a mental illness. So she's still 962 00:52:45,462 --> 00:52:49,142 Speaker 2: in sci Muncy and she's always separated because she could 963 00:52:49,142 --> 00:52:51,662 Speaker 2: harm others as well. I met with her, I actually 964 00:52:51,742 --> 00:52:55,222 Speaker 2: interviewed her. Amazing. I had no control of that interview 965 00:52:55,302 --> 00:52:58,302 Speaker 2: because I didn't know what I had no control. So 966 00:52:58,382 --> 00:53:01,382 Speaker 2: she took over the interview because of her diagnosis, like 967 00:53:01,502 --> 00:53:05,782 Speaker 2: she has bipolar and she's schizophrenic as well, and anyway, 968 00:53:05,862 --> 00:53:07,342 Speaker 2: I won't get into that, but that was what was 969 00:53:07,382 --> 00:53:10,822 Speaker 2: happening with the interview. But there's a case. Yes, as 970 00:53:10,862 --> 00:53:15,622 Speaker 2: a mass shooter. Society, family friends, we didn't look after 971 00:53:15,742 --> 00:53:18,142 Speaker 2: her because people lost their lives because she should have 972 00:53:18,182 --> 00:53:19,902 Speaker 2: been well. She was in and out, but she should 973 00:53:19,942 --> 00:53:21,662 Speaker 2: have stayed within a mental institution. 974 00:53:21,862 --> 00:53:25,142 Speaker 1: There are there any other big differences that you've noticed. 975 00:53:25,142 --> 00:53:26,822 Speaker 1: I know you focus on the women, but between the 976 00:53:26,902 --> 00:53:28,782 Speaker 1: male and female prisoners. 977 00:53:28,742 --> 00:53:32,222 Speaker 2: The crime itself, right, the infliction of well, the violence 978 00:53:32,702 --> 00:53:35,142 Speaker 2: or the actual crime or the behavior they have a 979 00:53:35,222 --> 00:53:37,902 Speaker 2: lot of the women. We know this generally speaking, it's 980 00:53:37,902 --> 00:53:41,222 Speaker 2: in research that women will usually offend someone close to them, 981 00:53:41,422 --> 00:53:43,542 Speaker 2: and particularly if it's a mother or child, et cetera, 982 00:53:43,822 --> 00:53:47,262 Speaker 2: or a loved one, sometimes also in self defense. But 983 00:53:47,382 --> 00:53:49,742 Speaker 2: we also then know that males, many of the men 984 00:53:50,142 --> 00:53:53,462 Speaker 2: that again in the United States, especially there and there, 985 00:53:53,462 --> 00:53:56,822 Speaker 2: because I've you know, committed a crime. It's been drugs 986 00:53:57,542 --> 00:54:02,262 Speaker 2: and or alcohol, robbery, murder for usually acquaintance or a 987 00:54:02,302 --> 00:54:05,702 Speaker 2: friend like that. So the differences are that you know, again, 988 00:54:05,822 --> 00:54:09,582 Speaker 2: women commits usually violent crimes to someone that's close or 989 00:54:09,622 --> 00:54:13,062 Speaker 2: someone they know, as opposed to a stranger. And you know, 990 00:54:13,502 --> 00:54:15,662 Speaker 2: again that's the difference between the males and the females. 991 00:54:15,702 --> 00:54:16,982 Speaker 2: And I'm only generalizing. 992 00:54:17,262 --> 00:54:19,742 Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that, though, because when I think 993 00:54:19,782 --> 00:54:22,062 Speaker 1: of male offending, I think about the fact that one 994 00:54:22,142 --> 00:54:24,022 Speaker 1: woman a week dies at the hands of a former 995 00:54:24,102 --> 00:54:27,582 Speaker 1: or current partner in Australia. But you're saying that because 996 00:54:27,582 --> 00:54:31,062 Speaker 1: there's so many more men that the actual statistics show 997 00:54:31,102 --> 00:54:34,222 Speaker 1: that they're actually killing a lot of other people as well. 998 00:54:34,342 --> 00:54:36,262 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm glad you and it was great how you 999 00:54:36,342 --> 00:54:38,422 Speaker 2: frame that, because it's I don't want to sound like 1000 00:54:38,502 --> 00:54:42,542 Speaker 2: that you men don't kill your intimate partner violence, or 1001 00:54:43,102 --> 00:54:44,942 Speaker 2: I don't want it to be seen that I'm saying that, well, 1002 00:54:44,982 --> 00:54:47,822 Speaker 2: men don't kill intimates like women, like as you just 1003 00:54:47,942 --> 00:54:51,222 Speaker 2: mentioned here in Australia and also in other countries. But 1004 00:54:52,062 --> 00:54:55,302 Speaker 2: if you look on the average, the bigger picture to 1005 00:54:55,382 --> 00:54:57,742 Speaker 2: the men saying that are incarcerated violent crimes, saying the 1006 00:54:57,862 --> 00:55:01,102 Speaker 2: United States an example, you'll find, you know, it could 1007 00:55:01,142 --> 00:55:04,022 Speaker 2: be sixty forty, but often it's more someone they know, 1008 00:55:04,262 --> 00:55:06,782 Speaker 2: an acquaintance, and that could also be a partner. But 1009 00:55:07,222 --> 00:55:11,462 Speaker 2: often it's again I'll say this drug bust, money, you know, trafficking, 1010 00:55:11,662 --> 00:55:16,262 Speaker 2: human sex, trafficking, these type of shall we say, realms 1011 00:55:16,302 --> 00:55:18,462 Speaker 2: of criminality as opposed to the women. 1012 00:55:18,702 --> 00:55:22,382 Speaker 1: And you would say that a stranger murder or is 1013 00:55:22,782 --> 00:55:25,102 Speaker 1: very uncommon with women, but more likely with men. 1014 00:55:25,822 --> 00:55:28,782 Speaker 2: It's more likely. A stranger acquaintance is more likely with men. 1015 00:55:29,422 --> 00:55:31,622 Speaker 2: With women, no, it's usually someone very close to them 1016 00:55:31,822 --> 00:55:33,782 Speaker 2: as opposed to a stranger. 1017 00:55:37,862 --> 00:55:40,462 Speaker 1: Thanks to doctor Catherine M. Whiteley for helping us to 1018 00:55:40,502 --> 00:55:43,822 Speaker 1: tell these stories. True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea 1019 00:55:43,902 --> 00:55:47,622 Speaker 1: podcast hosted and produced by me Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, 1020 00:55:47,942 --> 00:55:51,342 Speaker 1: with audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening. 1021 00:55:51,582 --> 00:55:54,302 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week. With another true crime conversation