Speaker 1: So you're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1: I am a perfectionist. I don't think that's a positive thing.
Speaker 1: I think it's actually really fear masquerading as perfectionism. I
Speaker 1: think sometimes the times when everything's meant to be perfect
Speaker 1: and you feel like it built it up so much
Speaker 1: in your mind and it fails, it's not a failure.
Speaker 1: It's a lesson that's always meant to be.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to but are you happy? The podcast
Speaker 2: that asks the questions you've always wanted to know from
Speaker 2: the people who appear to have it all. I'm Claire
Speaker 2: Stevens and today's guest is one who has been at
Speaker 2: the very top of my wish list since I first
Speaker 2: had the idea for this show. In terms of people
Speaker 2: with aspirational lives, Zoe Foster Blake is in a league
Speaker 2: of her own. She's an author of fiction and nonfit
Speaker 2: and children's books, a skincare founder and an entrepreneur, and
Speaker 2: as a fixture of Australian media, she's known for her warm,
Speaker 2: handid funny tone, one that is profoundly distinct to her.
Speaker 2: I read Zoe's novels in my twenties. She's written a
Speaker 2: lot of them, and they're the kinds of stories that
Speaker 2: feel like a cozy, comfortable hug from a friend. She
Speaker 2: then launched Go to Skincare, an iconic now international skincare company,
Speaker 2: And while I don't know a lot about business and
Speaker 2: stakes and shares, it's worth many, many, many ends of
Speaker 2: million dollars. So obviously I have a million questions for her,
Speaker 2: because she really does have the secret source. Unlucky for us,
Speaker 2: Zoe is not into gatekeeping. She's one of those people
Speaker 2: who really does believe that there's enough success for everyone,
Speaker 2: and she likes to teach. Over the years, Zoe Foster
Speaker 2: Blake has taught me about vitamin C and face oils
Speaker 2: and hyaluronic acid, and I distinctly remember a mind blowing
Speaker 2: makeup to you to talk where she put flush on
Speaker 2: her nose and it really does brighten up your whole faith.
Speaker 2: But in this interview, she taught me a lot more
Speaker 2: about boundaries, about success, about drive, about creativity, and of
Speaker 2: course about happiness. He's Zoey Foster Black. You in your
Speaker 2: early career, like me, you worked for Mayor Friedman. Tell
Speaker 2: me when you were in your early twenties working at
Speaker 2: Cosmo and then harp As Bizarre. Who were you at
Speaker 2: that stage in your life.
Speaker 1: Oh, it was such a great time. I came in
Speaker 1: at twenty three knowing nothing about beauty editing at all,
Speaker 1: but I'd worked in kids' mags and music mags before then,
Speaker 1: so I'd grow on my teath a little bit. But
Speaker 1: I'd just come out of a big breakup, and I
Speaker 1: really felt like it was my Carry Bradshaw moment because
Speaker 1: I was suddenly in this glamorous job, at this glamorous building,
Speaker 1: all of these glamorous women who I'd looked up to
Speaker 1: for so long. Yes, pinched me moment, and so I
Speaker 1: embraced it. I started dressing up for work, which you
Speaker 1: had to any way, and my confidence really bloomed, and
Speaker 1: I it was the first time I really felt like
Speaker 1: part of a team and part of something bigger. And
Speaker 1: I had not had a great relationship with other women
Speaker 1: before that. I had a really good best female friend
Speaker 1: at school, but I had a lot of male friends.
Speaker 1: I just thought they were easier, less bullshit, and we
Speaker 1: just would be idiots together. And there was more emphasis
Speaker 1: on comedy with the boys. So it was the first
Speaker 1: time I fell in love with women really and saw
Speaker 1: them not as competitors or as boring and whatever I
Speaker 1: thought of them during school, and just fell in love
Speaker 1: with women and being part of something really fun.
Speaker 2: When you were a beauty editor, did you feel like
Speaker 2: it was enough? Like when you were you were at
Speaker 2: that stage in your career and you are getting all
Speaker 2: these opportunities and you're writing about beauty and really making
Speaker 2: a name for yourself. Were you more ambitious than that? Yes?
Speaker 1: And the proof came quickly because Mia quickly put me
Speaker 1: in charge of lifestyle as well, and I started writing
Speaker 1: dating columns. I had all of the time in the
Speaker 1: world and all of the energy, and I just wanted
Speaker 1: to do everything. Started a beauty blog, so I'd write
Speaker 1: that in the mornings before work, jump on the bus,
Speaker 1: drive in to going to work, then go to events afterwards.
Speaker 1: And then I remember sort of feeling like I needed
Speaker 1: to move on, like I've been at Cosmo for a
Speaker 1: few years, and it was actually me who said, just
Speaker 1: can you write a book or something like? Just stay here,
Speaker 1: but do something else to keep you busy. And I'd
Speaker 1: always thought I might write fiction. My father's an author,
Speaker 1: and I thought beauty editing was just this mad world.
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it existed. I could get sent stuff
Speaker 1: to play with and that's your job. That's actually your job,
Speaker 1: and you get to take it home. So yeah, So
Speaker 1: I was blogging, working full time, writing a column, and
Speaker 1: writing a book and that was just enough.
Speaker 2: And Maya approached you at one stage for the deputy
Speaker 2: editor job or.
Speaker 1: Was some kind of an emotion, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you said no because it would involve people management
Speaker 2: and leaning more into the business side. And you probably
Speaker 2: don't know this, but Maya uses you as an example
Speaker 2: in a lot of like mentoring conversations where she's like,
Speaker 2: which path do you want to go down? She calls
Speaker 2: it like the ladder or the lattice? Yeah, and she's
Speaker 2: like she offers you as one option, and it's like, well,
Speaker 2: no one's going to want to go down the other line.
Speaker 2: Everyone just wants to be zoie. So she says, how
Speaker 2: you said no to that because you didn't want to
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 1: There was hard role, Yeah, and you would.
Speaker 2: Have been sacrificing your creativity.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: How were you so self assured at that point to
Speaker 2: say no?
Speaker 1: Ubris. I really think it was Ubris because there is
Speaker 1: a lot of creativity in being an editor or a
Speaker 1: director of something, because you ultimately, now as a founder ancident,
Speaker 1: you're setting the visionary tone, you can shape a magazine,
Speaker 1: you're pulling a team together to create something incredible together.
Speaker 1: But at that time I saw the man just as
Speaker 1: a management role and a business role and a meetings
Speaker 1: and only writing you did was the ace. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh god, no, I'm a writer, and I am a writer.
Speaker 1: Writing informs everything I do if you really drill down
Speaker 1: on it. So I saw that pretty clearly, and it
Speaker 1: probably was pretty offensive back then at like twenty six
Speaker 1: to say oh thanks, I just knew that it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: wouldn't be enough writing for me.
Speaker 2: Are you good at saying no?
Speaker 1: And also being an editor seemed really stressful? Yeah, a
Speaker 1: lot of public facing stuff. Yeah, that scared this shit
Speaker 1: out of me. Even as a bidiad you would have
Speaker 1: to present to brand and it just ough heart.
Speaker 2: Attacks, which is ironic now given what you do heart attacks.
Speaker 2: But yeah, when you said no to that, is that
Speaker 2: something you're good at saying no when things come up?
Speaker 2: That just not yes, something that serves you. I love
Speaker 2: no and how do you say no?
Speaker 1: It took me a while to learn it, but it
Speaker 1: is a real skill. And there are a few key
Speaker 1: thinkers that I always look to, like Kevin Kelly and
Speaker 1: Seth Godin, who I just firm believers in. You know
Speaker 1: that old adage when you say no to then you're
Speaker 1: saying yes to you. But it's really about the more
Speaker 1: busy you get, having children, having a business, trying to
Speaker 1: feed all these different rounds, you just have to be
Speaker 1: a lot more careful about what you say yes to
Speaker 1: and saying yes to a gig or a job or something.
Speaker 1: It's never just that two hours on stage, as you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of admin and emailing and sorting out
Speaker 1: and contracts and travel and all of those things. And
Speaker 1: it's a real privilege to be able to say no
Speaker 1: to a lot of stuff now. But I have reached
Speaker 1: that point because I've done the twenty years earlier of
Speaker 1: building up that confidence but also that comfortable position to
Speaker 1: be able to have my own business and writing books
Speaker 1: and my family and that's all I do.
Speaker 2: How do you say no? Because I'm such a people plaser,
Speaker 2: and it's probably one of my big issues is that.
Speaker 1: Please yourself, please yourself at this time.
Speaker 2: I know. But like if somebody comes to you and
Speaker 2: you say no, and then they do that thing of
Speaker 2: like coming back to you with more reasons why.
Speaker 1: You can't give you can't give an explanation.
Speaker 2: So what's the one sentence though, of to Blake Way
Speaker 2: to say that.
Speaker 1: You just say thank you so much? Sounds great. I
Speaker 1: can't be there, but I hope it goes really well
Speaker 1: because if you say, oh, I can't do it that
Speaker 1: week they were like, oh, what dates are you free?
Speaker 1: Then never explain, just say it's a no, and with
Speaker 1: kindness because you're like, thank you so much for thinking
Speaker 1: of me. This is going to be a great event,
Speaker 1: but it's not for me. And I think it's that
Speaker 1: really firm boundary. It's not rude, it's just it's a no.
Speaker 2: And I guess that's the only way that you're able
Speaker 2: to focus on the stuff, yeap, that really matters to
Speaker 2: you and to do the really really big projects like
Speaker 2: building a huge business.
Speaker 1: And that is it. And I think also you get
Speaker 1: to a point where like you either remember if you're
Speaker 1: saying yes to someone that's beneficial to them, that's helping
Speaker 1: their brand and their I'd rather help my brand and
Speaker 1: my team. Yeah, and what I'm doing over here. So
Speaker 1: that's the choice you make too, You're like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: back myself.
Speaker 2: I have a theory that the world lies to us
Speaker 2: a bit about happiness, and that often the moments that
Speaker 2: we expect to be that happy is actually arn't. And
Speaker 2: that's sort of what this podcast is about, that there
Speaker 2: are these times where we have all these ideas about
Speaker 2: how something should feel, and things might look really, really
Speaker 2: really shiny from the outside, and that's not the reality.
Speaker 2: Do you have an example of a time where externally
Speaker 2: things looked great, but under the surface they weren't.
Speaker 1: Probably, although a hand on heart, I'd try never to
Speaker 1: be disingenious, and I'd rather omit than pretend. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's helpful to portray that perfection. I know that's
Speaker 1: obviously a lot of what social media is about, and
Speaker 1: I know there are a lot of people in our
Speaker 1: how a being very open about their vulnerabilities and their
Speaker 1: mental health, and I think it's very helpful for a
Speaker 1: lot of people to see that. I can honestly say
Speaker 1: that that doesn't happen for me very often. There's certainly
Speaker 1: been big pockets of my life where things were meant
Speaker 1: to be fantastic and amazing. But that's always not really
Speaker 1: about the outside observer going, hey, this looks perfect, but
Speaker 1: me placing those expectations on it and going you should
Speaker 1: be having the time of your life because I've worked
Speaker 1: so hard to make it perfect. In my mind, I
Speaker 1: am a perfectionist. I don't think that's a positive thing.
Speaker 1: I think it's actually really fear masquerading as perfectionism. A
Speaker 1: big one was the arrogance of taking a gap year
Speaker 1: after year twelve and sort of telling everyone in my
Speaker 1: small town I'm going in the big city. You know,
Speaker 1: I need a break from study. Oh my god, and
Speaker 1: taking a year off before going to UNI and moving
Speaker 1: to Sydney in a gust of like speed. I was seventeen.
Speaker 1: I had no money, nothing, nothing saved. I wasn't going
Speaker 1: to Africa to help orphanages. I wasn't going to work
Speaker 1: overseas or travel. I didn't have a job. I just
Speaker 1: moved to Sydney in the sharehouse and I only had
Speaker 1: my grandma and my sister in Sydney, and I had
Speaker 1: the most miserable, broke, sad, pathetic year of my life.
Speaker 1: And I would go home for birthdays or twenty first
Speaker 1: or whatever and had to pretend that everything was going great.
Speaker 1: For example, I was working in the dungeon of the
Speaker 1: Intercontinental selling their loyalty card as a telemarketer for zero dollars,
Speaker 1: and so I would tell everyone I was working at
Speaker 1: the Intercontinental. I was also a nightpacker at Cold like
Speaker 1: I was. I did a lot of terrible jobs. But
Speaker 1: I now am so grateful for that year, because without
Speaker 1: the depths of being super duper broke and having not
Speaker 1: a friend and no clue and just being aimless, I
Speaker 1: would never allow myself to feel like that again. I
Speaker 1: just really realized that I need to be busy, I
Speaker 1: need to have some purpose, I need to have friends,
Speaker 1: and I need to have some money. M So, I
Speaker 1: think that year and that was silly, yeah, and some
Speaker 1: could say a waste of a year, but because I
Speaker 1: was also so young, it didn't really matter. I still
Speaker 1: started union everybody else. But yeah, I think sometimes the
Speaker 1: times when everything's meant to be perfect and you feel
Speaker 1: like you built it up so much in your mind
Speaker 1: and it fails, it's not a failure, it's a lesson.
Speaker 1: It's always meant to.
Speaker 2: Be in your new novel. Things will calm down soon.
Speaker 2: Something I really took away from it was the kind
Speaker 2: of unrelenting pressure of being a founder and how you
Speaker 2: have these achievements that I just cannot even imagine in
Speaker 2: terms of what you've built, yet at the same time
Speaker 2: you kind of can't sit there to take it in
Speaker 2: because there's always a million other things you need to
Speaker 2: be doing. Have you had that experience with business sometimes
Speaker 2: that you look around and think, this is incredible, but
Speaker 2: I'm not able to feel it.
Speaker 1: And I think anyone who works in like im media
Speaker 1: where you're aways thinking about the next show or the
Speaker 1: next magazine or the next whatever where it's working, you
Speaker 1: haven't many months ahead. Yeah, it's it's a real trap
Speaker 1: because you never take a moment to stop and think
Speaker 1: it's only happened a few times over the years, and
Speaker 1: it's like it was seeing our products and Saphara in
Speaker 1: the States, and it's always the Christmas party where I
Speaker 1: stop and look around and go, oh my god, these people,
Speaker 1: I love them, Look what they've done, Look what we've
Speaker 1: created together, or feedback from customers where you know whether
Speaker 1: it's an airport or an email, and it's just that
Speaker 1: pure thank you. This has changed my skin. And I
Speaker 1: think those little reminders. People might not give founders feedback
Speaker 1: because they expect that they'll get it all the time,
Speaker 1: But we really need it because it's a really kind
Speaker 1: of busy and lonely position a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: You're the director and you're meant to have all the
Speaker 1: ideas and you have this eternal type of creativity and
Speaker 1: excitement and you're public facing. But well, you do get
Speaker 1: the good jobs thumbs ups, but you you yourself will
Speaker 1: never actually take a moment to stop. Yeah, and you've
Speaker 1: got to force yourself to do it. And I think
Speaker 1: the Christmas party is always a good one for me.
Speaker 2: Does your business like at that go to Christmas party?
Speaker 2: When you see your products in Sephora that.
Speaker 1: Was in the States? Yeah, we're in Meca.
Speaker 2: Yeah. When you have those moments, is it happiness that
Speaker 2: you feel or is it something else? Like what does
Speaker 2: business give you?
Speaker 1: I think it might be a scene, but pride. I
Speaker 1: feel proud. I feel proud that I didn't know anything
Speaker 1: about business, and I didn't know anything about creating a
Speaker 1: team in a workplace and a culture and satisfying a customer.
Speaker 1: I had done it a little bit through my writing,
Speaker 1: I guess, creating a project that people can hold in
Speaker 1: their hands and enjoy. But it's pride and it's always
Speaker 1: a bit of how did you get here? I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say it's imposter syndrome. I don't I'm past that for that.
Speaker 1: But it's pride and a little bit of fascination. Y's cow,
Speaker 1: but smile.
Speaker 2: Do you get the sense of like I'm leaving a
Speaker 2: legacy and I've created something bigger than myself. There's some
Speaker 2: like almost immortality there.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have said yes to that, because it feels
Speaker 1: silly for a skincare brand to have a legacy. But
Speaker 1: when I was buying my company back last year, this
Speaker 1: huge maternal instinct came in and I just felt so
Speaker 1: protective of what fills my cupboard. I would be bereft
Speaker 1: if I had no more go to, let alone the
Speaker 1: million of customers who love it and use it every
Speaker 1: day and our team, and I just thought, this is
Speaker 1: something that enhances people's lives that they really enjoy, and
Speaker 1: it gives them a little moment without getting to this
Speaker 1: is saving the earth. It's just a nice moment for
Speaker 1: people that they like, and it filled a gap and
Speaker 1: I'm proud of that. Don't fuck it up, don't ruin it.
Speaker 1: It's really really hard to get a brand that people
Speaker 1: resonate with. It's really hard to get that stickiness and
Speaker 1: that loyalty in their community. How dare you ruin that?
Speaker 1: Like you're so lucky? So yeah, I really just went
Speaker 1: into full speed mode and six year and just went
Speaker 1: at all costs. Yeah, this must keep going. We want
Speaker 1: to be a household name in Australia. That's our goal.
Speaker 1: Our big goal is to be a household name in Australia.
Speaker 1: And we can do it. We've been in BIS for
Speaker 1: ten years and I think we'll get there.
Speaker 2: After the break, Zoe and I talk about her strengths
Speaker 2: and weaknesses as a business founder, and more about her
Speaker 2: book and why she'd be happy to just sit and
Speaker 2: write for the rest of our life. What do you
Speaker 2: think is your biggest strength as a founder?
Speaker 1: I think creativity, but also coupled with risk. I'm not
Speaker 1: averse to risk. I think you have to lean into
Speaker 1: risk and be really okay with both outcomes, and they're
Speaker 1: not always going to be great. You won't hear about
Speaker 1: the bad outcomes. You'll only see the good ones, but
Speaker 1: take the chance. And that's what I love about us
Speaker 1: being privately owned again and small and nimble, is there
Speaker 1: is no bureaucracy. We can do whatever we want, and
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we forget that. And I think when
Speaker 1: you're trying too hard to think about what the customer
Speaker 1: is thinking, you're overthinking it and you need to go
Speaker 1: back to what we're thinking. Because when I started the brand,
Speaker 1: I had blinkers on. I didn't care about what every
Speaker 1: other brand was doing. That was twelve years ago. Now
Speaker 1: it's a really saturated landscape, and when you're in retail
Speaker 1: like Mecca and you're up against these beautiful international brands,
Speaker 1: you have to be a bit o mindful about what
Speaker 1: you're up against and how you can stand out. So
Speaker 1: I like that. I think within discipline there's freedom, and
Speaker 1: I like those boundaries because it allows me to be
Speaker 1: more creative and push against things a bit more.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: I'm always reminding the team to be cheekier, be a
Speaker 1: bit naughtier, where the Rogue Train like, we take beauty
Speaker 1: not too seriously. It's allowed to be fun, and we
Speaker 1: like to make things fun that have no right to be.
Speaker 1: It's like on the back of the packaging and little
Speaker 1: moments on the website, We're like, that's allowed. No one
Speaker 1: said you can't have fun. So I think being cheeky
Speaker 1: and taking risks is probably what I bring.
Speaker 2: Is that similar to how you approach creativity in general,
Speaker 2: like in terms of writing, in terms of every creative
Speaker 2: project you've embarked on, do you kind of have that
Speaker 2: cheekiness risk taking a bit of like a no fear Yeah.
Speaker 1: And it's funny because I don't think of myself as fearless.
Speaker 1: I'm quite anxious person, but I think with creative projects,
Speaker 1: I do feel pretty reckless, and I think that it's
Speaker 1: a good place to be in. And maybe I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have at the start with my earlier novels because I
Speaker 1: really needed them to work so that would validate me
Speaker 1: and get me to do another one. That would like, oh,
Speaker 1: if that works and I get to do another one,
Speaker 1: I still feel that if this works, I get to
Speaker 1: do another one. Is kind of my barometer of success
Speaker 1: as well as how it resonates with the reader. So
Speaker 1: it's a funny thing because you sort of there's a
Speaker 1: selfishness to writing a piece of work that you're really
Speaker 1: happy with and you love because I guess human to
Speaker 1: be writing for the reader, but I can't write for
Speaker 1: the reader because I don't know what they want and
Speaker 1: what they're thinking. So I have to try and assume
Speaker 1: that what I like is good taste.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's.
Speaker 1: Arrogant, I guess. But I feel confident enough at forty
Speaker 1: four in my taste and in my work to be
Speaker 1: able to work on it to a point where I
Speaker 1: feel like it's good enough to go out there and
Speaker 1: I could edit for ten years. I really could, and
Speaker 1: I could hone and hone and hone.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so I feel fearless.
Speaker 1: And I loved Things Will Come Down Soon because to
Speaker 1: me it felt genuinely innovative in terms of it's not
Speaker 1: a business book, but you can learn so much about
Speaker 1: business in it. And I just thought that Venn diagram
Speaker 1: a crossover of a founder who's an active founder, a
Speaker 1: proven entrepreneur, and a fiction writer coming together to offer
Speaker 1: something unique, something for everyone, hopefully. So yeah, I think
Speaker 1: you got it back.
Speaker 2: Yourself, as somebody who knows absolutely nothing about business, reading
Speaker 2: Things Will Come Down Soon was so fascinating and you
Speaker 2: could really feel the stakes. I don't think I've ever
Speaker 2: felt stakes like that because you don't really read books
Speaker 2: about business and especially women in business. Yes, you so
Speaker 2: rarely read those stories. Yet it feels very of the
Speaker 2: moment because there are so many female entrepreneurs, there are
Speaker 2: so many women building their own things. How did you decide?
Speaker 2: Because as a reader, part of my fascination is trying
Speaker 2: to work out parallels and who's who when looking at
Speaker 2: all the characters. How did you creatively break your own
Speaker 2: experience and writing something that was going to be very,
Speaker 2: very distinct and not kind of make people look at
Speaker 2: your life and one of the.
Speaker 1: Oh, and they will, that's okay. The reason I love
Speaker 1: fiction is very freeing and it's very liberating. And god,
Speaker 1: I remember even back in the air Kiss's days talking
Speaker 1: to me about it, going, oh, I might write like
Speaker 1: it's a bit of a water biographic. Are you insane?
Speaker 1: You're twenty five. You're going to burn all your bridges
Speaker 1: way too early.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And my father as well, He's like, fiction is so
Speaker 1: fun because you can mutate ten people into one to
Speaker 1: get the perfect person with the perfect idiosyncrasies. And so
Speaker 1: for me, each character works hard in this book to
Speaker 1: pull the narrative through. There's no fat in there. They're
Speaker 1: all there to support kids trajectory and to show the
Speaker 1: different facets of her life and her personality. So I
Speaker 1: can hand on heart say this is not my life
Speaker 1: and these are not my people. But certainly there's aspects
Speaker 1: of these people that I've known. And also I'm meant
Speaker 1: to a lot of young founders, and I've heard their
Speaker 1: horror stories, and so a lot of that have come in.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to write my deal. My deal is
Speaker 1: unique and circumstantial, and it's been written about, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to create something new. And also every deal and
Speaker 1: every business is so specifically impersonal, and it's a moment
Speaker 1: in time, and you know, there's so many factors that
Speaker 1: come into the success of a business. So I didn't
Speaker 1: want to necessarily replicate my own story.
Speaker 2: I think what makes the book so vivid, and you
Speaker 2: become so in Kit's world because your creativity and marketing
Speaker 2: brain is all over it. Because even the business that
Speaker 2: Kit has, which is second day Hair, you can't help
Speaker 2: but be like, can somebody invent that?
Speaker 1: I know I'm thinking about it, genuinely.
Speaker 2: I was like, did you get halfway through the book
Speaker 2: and think, oh wait, maybe I should also invent the product.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's trademarked.
Speaker 2: Is it actually your site?
Speaker 1: Ma?
Speaker 2: Me was like, maybe I should steal that.
Speaker 1: I do not the first I mean, there are products
Speaker 1: out there that exist like this, but it couldn't be skin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I didn't want to do makeup hair. I'm obsessed
Speaker 1: with hair and hair products, styling, and I know honestly
Speaker 1: about six or seven styles who become good friends, who
Speaker 1: all want to have their own brand or have started,
Speaker 1: and so it made perfect sense. But the product itself
Speaker 1: had to be something that doesn't exist really and could
Speaker 1: be very sort to a lot of people. So of course,
Speaker 1: you know, lived experience. I'm going to put a bit
Speaker 1: of myself in there and what I would do if
Speaker 1: I was a founder, But yeah, kid exists as my
Speaker 1: parable to show everything I've learned. And after my dealer,
Speaker 1: I honestly sat down and went, I feel the duty
Speaker 1: of taking everything I've learned from these very expensive lawyers
Speaker 1: and advisors to share that knowledge with people who like
Speaker 1: me perhaps and they're creative and have no clue about
Speaker 1: this stuff. And I ran my gamut for a year
Speaker 1: and I'm like, Okay, here's what I learned guys quick.
Speaker 1: I needed to get it all down.
Speaker 2: Obviously, it's an amazing book and it's page turner, and
Speaker 2: I read it so bloody quickly. But I also think
Speaker 2: that there's something quite autruistic about it, because as a
Speaker 2: woman who I can be kind of creative, the idea
Speaker 2: of owning anything doesn't come naturally, and the idea of
Speaker 2: trying to build something for yourself doesn't come naturally, and
Speaker 2: so reading somebody's story where she does that, and then
Speaker 2: all the nuances of how you set up the company
Speaker 2: and what that then means down the line, and having
Speaker 2: to have really difficult conversations. Even the role modeling of
Speaker 2: the difficult conversations that King had was actually incredibly insightful.
Speaker 2: Is there anyone who's going to read your book and
Speaker 2: see themselves or be pissed off? No?
Speaker 1: No, it shouldn't feel like that sort of book where
Speaker 1: like I'm scorched earth about anything. All of the stressing
Speaker 1: kickeits last she brought on herself. Yeah, yeah, she shouldn't
Speaker 1: do that. The lessons that I put in there were
Speaker 1: kind of really dramatized in terms of like equity, giving
Speaker 1: away too much equity to start, or selling to people
Speaker 1: who didn't really have your best interests at heart. And
Speaker 1: I think I got to these positions or pivotal moments
Speaker 1: in my business career where I could have made those mistakes,
Speaker 1: and so I put them in the story to factors
Speaker 1: protection and go did maybe not do that? So that
Speaker 1: was the real head fuck when we with Kit was like,
Speaker 1: do I want to show her making all the wrong
Speaker 1: decisions or do I want to show making the right decisions?
Speaker 1: But how do we learn from that? So I had
Speaker 1: to find that sweet spot where she falters but you know, anyway,
Speaker 1: I won't spilet, but certainly she's learning as she goes,
Speaker 1: which I did to How do you.
Speaker 2: Go with being a perfectionist and being a writer.
Speaker 1: I think it's a skill. I don't see it as
Speaker 1: a negative until submission time, and that's when a good
Speaker 1: editor and a good copy of art are really vital.
Speaker 1: Because I over wrote by thirty thousand words, which is
Speaker 1: classic me good problem problem, Well sort of, but then
Speaker 1: you know, and then I remember shaving off like a
Speaker 1: thousand and getting it back and going, guys, it's don't worry,
Speaker 1: it's ready tend to print. Then they're like, you're cute,
Speaker 1: and then I think we had to get rid of
Speaker 1: at least another twenty thousand. So at that point, though,
Speaker 1: I just realized I'm in the hands of professionals, and
Speaker 1: I don't fight them on it. There's a few lines
Speaker 1: I like, No, that's a really good line. Please come
Speaker 1: and keep that. So yeah, I think you're going to
Speaker 1: hand it over at one point, otherwise you'll just be
Speaker 1: paralyzed forever.
Speaker 2: Is the perfectionism paralyzing in the first instance, Like when
Speaker 2: you sit down to write. You wrote a blog post
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two called the Writer who Doesn't isn't
Speaker 2: something I valish and you wrote about how you wanted
Speaker 2: to establish a writing habit.
Speaker 1: And you'll notice they haven't. That was like the last blog.
Speaker 2: Well you wrote that blog and now you've got an
Speaker 2: you did did someone else? But I can imagine you've
Speaker 2: got your business, you've got family, you've got all this
Speaker 2: stuff going on. Sit down in front of your computer.
Speaker 2: Does the perfectionism emerge?
Speaker 1: Then? No, not till the end, And I'm so down
Speaker 1: with the rewrite if it's not working. There are a
Speaker 1: couple of camps of writers. There are the writers who
Speaker 1: say it's very hard, and I sit down, I really
Speaker 1: and I get typewriter dohea. I just once the idea
Speaker 1: has marinated for long enough, it's all there and it's
Speaker 1: just a case of getting it out. Hence they're thirty
Speaker 1: thousand overright. So for me, my problem is more like,
Speaker 1: don't overwrite. You're just wasting your time. This is not good.
Speaker 1: But I like to explore every character and every subplot
Speaker 1: to give more reflection back to my protagonist. And then
Speaker 1: in the end, if we realize it don't need that,
Speaker 1: that and I can go. And I also really love dialogue,
Speaker 1: and dialogue is hard to keep brief because real life
Speaker 1: conversations are super wordy, and I think you learn a
Speaker 1: lot about characters and conversations with others. So I love dialogue.
Speaker 1: But no, my perfectionism comes in the end. I love
Speaker 1: the edit. Some people hate it. It is quite mathematical,
Speaker 1: which is not my normal brain superpower. Because you've got
Speaker 1: a hard copy, this soft copy, the line edit that
Speaker 1: comments underline, like, it's a lot for my brain, But
Speaker 1: I know we're shaving it off to get to the
Speaker 1: good stuff underneath.
Speaker 2: When you look at all these different things you do,
Speaker 2: where does your kind of a liveness come from? Is
Speaker 2: it business or is it writing?
Speaker 1: Writing is business? For me, so really go to for
Speaker 1: a few reasons exists, but one of them was like,
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a copywriter and I wasn't, so
Speaker 1: I thought, oh, make a brand, then I get to
Speaker 1: do my own ads. I get to do my own
Speaker 1: marketing and copy. As well as the fact that that
Speaker 1: sort of range for cutting out the beauty editor was
Speaker 1: what I wanted to do by making it range that
Speaker 1: anyone could pick up and understand instantly, and it was
Speaker 1: just genuinely very useful and effective. But I love recommendations
Speaker 1: and I love saving people time and money. I'm like, I
Speaker 1: just use this one. And that's what I've done is
Speaker 1: a beauty editor for ten years. But the writing, so
Speaker 1: I still write all the copy on primary and secondary
Speaker 1: vessels for the brand. Whatever you've hold in your hands,
Speaker 1: I've written. I have an amazingly talented team who do
Speaker 1: all the emails and social and everything. They're great at that.
Speaker 1: But if you're holding it, I've written it because I
Speaker 1: love that stuff, that little moment in the shower where
Speaker 1: you get a little giggle. So I am a writer
Speaker 1: no matter what I'm doing. Really, that's the essence of
Speaker 1: it all, whether it's Instagram, I'm a writer. The picture
Speaker 1: it's secondary. It's anything children's books, you know, even though
Speaker 1: they are literally call picture books, I still want the
Speaker 1: writing to really sing, and of course novels. So the
Speaker 1: perfectionism it runs through everything.
Speaker 2: How do you go about because obviously when may I
Speaker 2: offered you the deputy editor job, you weren't into people managing.
Speaker 2: Have you had two people manage?
Speaker 1: Not really? And this is one of the things I
Speaker 1: put in things will come down soon, is that it's
Speaker 1: often feels curati. Founders often hire junior to start off
Speaker 1: with to help them with admin or menial tasks. But
Speaker 1: as Kit does, she hires very seen you, very early on.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a good move because I know
Speaker 1: what I'm good at and it's not people management, and
Speaker 1: it's not running in a team and logistics and that
Speaker 1: sort of thing. So I have a CEO and a
Speaker 1: CIMO and I have grown ups in there doing that.
Speaker 1: And that was a big important step in our growth
Speaker 1: about five years in where I'm like, there was ten
Speaker 1: of us, say, doing everything and not all of it great,
Speaker 1: and so we brought into grown ups, we always say,
Speaker 1: and they're fantastic. So no, no, I think you can
Speaker 1: know what you're good at and invest in what you're
Speaker 1: not good at.
Speaker 2: How do you go being Zoe foster Blake the founder
Speaker 2: and person working in this business and Zoe foster Blake
Speaker 2: the brand Like, are you conscious when you come into
Speaker 2: work that maybe you've got less of a margin of
Speaker 2: error in terms of how you behave that day?
Speaker 1: Totally? I think that's when you become a public figure
Speaker 1: that's always in your mind anywhere you go and whatever
Speaker 1: you do, particularly when your husband's a beacon for that stumes,
Speaker 1: so you get used to being.
Speaker 2: Watched.
Speaker 1: I don't think my team do that. You know, we're
Speaker 1: good people, we're all in it together. But I think
Speaker 1: the public facing aspect of being a brand founder is
Speaker 1: pretty highly scrutinized, particularly in beauty. Never used to be,
Speaker 1: but it's become very studied.
Speaker 2: And does that scare you? Does it give you anxiety?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Totally, And it's an ongoing learning curve for me.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it comes back to my
Speaker 1: mental health at that point and how capable I am
Speaker 1: of dealing this shit. So if I'm getting into trouble
Speaker 1: online about something that we've done as a brand, if
Speaker 1: I've not been sleeping if I'm super stressed and already pushed,
Speaker 1: that affects me really a lot more, of course. But
Speaker 1: if I'm in a good, clean state of mind and
Speaker 1: I've been looking after myself, it's amazing the difference you
Speaker 1: can do. So that will always happen, it's just how
Speaker 1: I can react to it, and that's my goal in
Speaker 1: terms of personal improvement as to not being so reactive
Speaker 1: and recognizing at a moment in time my people pleasing
Speaker 1: anxious side wants to fix it immediately, and I'm always
Speaker 1: I want to write back and defend ourselves. That's my
Speaker 1: first thing I'm going to do, and that's the first
Speaker 1: thing you shouldn't do. It's never defend yourself. You know
Speaker 1: people will be upset about things, and you have to
Speaker 1: be respectful and also know what you know to be right.
Speaker 1: So it's always going to be complicated that parasocial sort
Speaker 1: of relationship, particularly if you feel like you're in trouble,
Speaker 1: because I don't like feeling like I'm in trouble like
Speaker 1: most people, particularly if you don't feel like you've done
Speaker 1: the wrong thing.
Speaker 2: There are examples in the book where there will be
Speaker 2: certain things going on online or even there's like you know,
Speaker 2: tiny doses of cancel culture sprinkled throughout, which is so
Speaker 2: clever because that is part of what it is to
Speaker 2: be a founder in this.
Speaker 1: Day and age.
Speaker 2: I know that sometimes you'll read something about yourself and
Speaker 2: you're like, Eh, whatever, I don't care. And then there
Speaker 2: are things that really upset you, and sometimes you can't
Speaker 2: even articulate why what hurts. In the book, there's certain
Speaker 2: things you can see that really get under kit skin.
Speaker 2: Are there things that get under your skin?
Speaker 1: I think it's assuming our intentions were other than what
Speaker 1: they were. So for me, it's everything we do as
Speaker 1: a brand is intended and designed and carefully calculated to
Speaker 1: be joyful and educational and nurturing. That's what our company
Speaker 1: does and that's why we put all this effort into
Speaker 1: producing products and marketing them. So when people say that
Speaker 1: you've done otherwise, it shouldn't get under my skin, but
Speaker 1: it really does. Because one of my key areas to
Speaker 1: work on is being defensive when I feel caught out
Speaker 1: or when I'm being accused of something I don't think
Speaker 1: I did. Ask my husband. That's fun. So, you know,
Speaker 1: and there's a group of founders that I have that
Speaker 1: when one of us are going through something, we'll all
Speaker 1: check in and just say, hey, remember this is not real,
Speaker 1: this is just work and it will pass, and all
Speaker 1: of those wisdom advices that don't really help, but you've
Speaker 1: got to say it so that you know that you're
Speaker 1: not alone. So for me, it's just trying not to
Speaker 1: be absorb them so easily.
Speaker 2: When people are talking about Zoe Foster Blake online, is
Speaker 2: that you I heard a podcast recently where someone described
Speaker 2: it as a shadow self, Like you're online person. The
Speaker 2: person you are online is not actually who you are.
Speaker 2: It's a shadow self, and if people are attacking that person,
Speaker 2: you can differentiate because you go, that's not actually me,
Speaker 2: that's some avatar image of me that they don't actually know.
Speaker 2: Are you good at that? Or because you're so authentic
Speaker 2: online and you've built your identity with authenticity, is it
Speaker 2: easy to get it confused?
Speaker 1: It's fie, I think, because you're right, it is an avatar.
Speaker 1: And I generally use social just for work now and
Speaker 1: my cats because I don't feel inspired to share much
Speaker 1: more of my life than that. I don't think I
Speaker 1: need to, and that's why I write fiction so that
Speaker 1: I can experiences that I have I can weave into
Speaker 1: stories and that's the fun of it. I also don't
Speaker 1: think I'm that interesting, so I don't know why I
Speaker 1: would want to share anything more than I do. I
Speaker 1: think we take it personally just because we're human beings, right,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to ever misstep because it's not
Speaker 1: worth the hassle. But I also am aware that it's
Speaker 1: not a real world. You know, put you feet in
Speaker 1: the grass and need a banana, Just go and be
Speaker 1: back in the real world, play with the kids and
Speaker 1: remember what's really happening. And it's funny because something will
Speaker 1: blow up and you'll be so convinced that everyone's thinking
Speaker 1: about or talking about it, and you'll talk to a
Speaker 1: friend and they're like, what, Yeah, what do you trying
Speaker 1: to do that? And I love those moments because I
Speaker 1: was like, yes, notpe out of it, Okay, head out
Speaker 1: of your ass and get back into nature or whatever's
Speaker 1: going to help. So yeah, they come and go pretty quick.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty good at just going that's not really real life.
Speaker 1: That's not my real life. I'm at home in my
Speaker 1: tractor pants with my kids making dinner, and that's a shining,
Speaker 1: glimorous girl that someone's got an idea about and it's
Speaker 1: two different things.
Speaker 2: After the break, Zoey talks about the moments where she
Speaker 2: feels the happiest and why there are certain interviews she
Speaker 2: doesn't want to do. Are you happiest when you're writing?
Speaker 1: I am really happy when I'm writing, but I'm like
Speaker 1: a little squirrel who needs treats all the time. So
Speaker 1: I can do deep writing for like maybe an or two,
Speaker 1: I don't feel the same. Then I need something, maybe
Speaker 1: it's a scroll, maybe it's an actual physical scroll. And
Speaker 1: then by the end of the day I'm dying for
Speaker 1: the gids to get home because I'm like, I need
Speaker 1: to talk to someone and engage. So I love the balance,
Speaker 1: and in fact, my perfect sort of day is a
Speaker 1: bit of family, bit of social as in social interaction,
Speaker 1: a bit of riding, and some nature. You know, family
Speaker 1: time is beautiful and built in. I also really love
Speaker 1: riding bikes with my family. I've really found that to
Speaker 1: be a happy place because I can't relax, but that's
Speaker 1: active relaxation for me. I cannot sit still. I don't
Speaker 1: like not being productive. It's a problem I have so
Speaker 1: being physically moving but in nature and relaxing with my
Speaker 1: family just tick so many boxes.
Speaker 2: You strike me as someone who's somewhat introverted. Oh yes,
Speaker 2: and yet your life is so public and there are
Speaker 2: all sorts of aspects to what you do as a career,
Speaker 2: that public facing requires some level of social energy. Even
Speaker 2: as a beauty editor, went to like fancy events, and
Speaker 2: now you'll be at the logies, You'll be at all
Speaker 2: these very highly social situations. How do you find those?
Speaker 1: We don't get a mini at all. If you actually
Speaker 1: think about it, we'd go to the logis and maybe, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's it. Yeah, it does really exhaust me. And I
Speaker 1: probably had a lot more energy for it when I
Speaker 1: was in my twenties and thirties being beater and so on.
Speaker 1: But now I really noticed that drain. It's only because
Speaker 1: of thank you to social media, like the language around everything,
Speaker 1: for me to understand that I'm a highly social, skilled
Speaker 1: introvert and I can come in big and do the thing,
Speaker 1: and I can be on stage and do a signing
Speaker 1: and whatever and film things, and then I'm like shell,
Speaker 1: Like a lot of us, we'd have to go home
Speaker 1: and put myself clothed on and not talk to anybody.
Speaker 1: What I realized is I got older, is just just
Speaker 1: leaving time in between those things to regroup, because if
Speaker 1: I don't look after myself, I'm no good to anybody.
Speaker 1: So even with this book, to her, I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm not going back to back events. I'd rather take
Speaker 1: more time and give more, give a better version of
Speaker 1: myself to people than be this tired, which he's not
Speaker 1: stringing two words together. I don't know how like proper
Speaker 1: successful famous people do it, like doing a full press
Speaker 1: tour for like a month, or musical theater people on
Speaker 1: stage every night. I just, yeah, I don't have it
Speaker 1: in me at all.
Speaker 2: I'm so fascinated about it. I've always said my worst
Speaker 2: nightmare I think would be being in the Big Brother House.
Speaker 1: I think about it all the time, or Survivor or alone.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of shows I would never go
Speaker 1: on because.
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, imagine having to be just on.
Speaker 2: And then it's like I'm like, I'd probably come across
Speaker 2: as quite cold, but it's not coldness.
Speaker 1: It's just tiredness, yes, and anxiety about what I'm going
Speaker 1: to say. Did I say yeah, did I say the
Speaker 1: wrong thing? I say too much?
Speaker 2: My god?
Speaker 1: So yeah, I am pretty soually anxious, even in my
Speaker 1: own office with my team. I just, yeah, I'm a
Speaker 1: bit of a goose actually at the part of it.
Speaker 1: But I can do it good in short bests, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I just get that short burst out, I'll
Speaker 1: be all right. Do you like interviews, Well, I used
Speaker 1: to be on the other side of them, which is
Speaker 1: probably a bit easier. I don't mind them if it's
Speaker 1: about the work. No, I love I can go so
Speaker 1: deep talking about creativity and marketing and ideas and writing.
Speaker 1: I really love that stuff. I don't get asked it
Speaker 1: very often, though, it's not usually the questions that people
Speaker 1: want to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people are like, let me ask about the gossip
Speaker 2: your career. It spans so many creative industries. And do
Speaker 2: you worry in terms of looking at the future where
Speaker 2: to put your energy and that it's going to be finite,
Speaker 2: Like if you look at the next couple of decades,
Speaker 2: does it feel like you you really have to intentionally
Speaker 2: choose where to put your energy.
Speaker 1: I guess you should, but I don't. I love the
Speaker 1: surprise and delight of life, Like it could be that
Speaker 1: my all, my husband's work could change big time at
Speaker 1: any point. We could move and we could like anything
Speaker 1: could happen. I also love that writing has no expiration
Speaker 1: date and I can still be doing it when I'm
Speaker 1: seventy five unless AI comes in and does a better
Speaker 1: job of it. Nervous about that. So I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm able to always have that work. Thankfully, I don't
Speaker 1: need to be young or glamorous for it. I can
Speaker 1: just always write. And same with running a business and
Speaker 1: doing it well as long as I have the ideas.
Speaker 1: And I do have so many ideas. It's not the
Speaker 1: lack of ideas, it's the follow through and the execution
Speaker 1: and which ones are actually worth backing is probably the
Speaker 1: big question for us. So now I get excited about
Speaker 1: what's next. You never know what could happen. I was
Speaker 1: just like, oh, I've be doing my fifties sixties and
Speaker 1: like who knows, who cares? Like just go for it,
Speaker 1: Like could be writing for TV or I have no idea.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: When you think about your life, what do you think
Speaker 2: is the thing that when you're an old woman, I'm
Speaker 2: going to say like one hundred and twenty because that's
Speaker 2: how old he's going to live too. What is it
Speaker 2: when you look back on your life that will have
Speaker 2: made you happy, Like when you really zoom out, what
Speaker 2: is it that is the happiness?
Speaker 1: I think it's human connection. I put that to being
Speaker 1: a good partner, being the kind of parent who doesn't
Speaker 1: fuck up their kids too much. No, I'm going to
Speaker 1: do it without knowing what I'm doing, but that legacy
Speaker 1: of parenting well, which is a full time job now,
Speaker 1: as we all know. My Mum's always like, God, your generation,
Speaker 1: you really deep dive on this stuff too, And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well and why. And the connections that I have with
Speaker 1: friends and people in the world are really think that
Speaker 1: human connection and community also that purpose. Someone asked me
Speaker 1: that what do you think your purpose is? And it
Speaker 1: is a great question, and I'm not still confident in
Speaker 1: the answer, but I think it might be teaching, and
Speaker 1: not teaching in terms of teaching, but teaching people how
Speaker 1: to look after the skin, teaching people how to do
Speaker 1: a business, teaching people how to all the romans and
Speaker 1: writing relationships stuff I did, or even with the picture books,
Speaker 1: teaching kids how to write funny stories. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but vaguely I feel like that's sort of the thread
Speaker 1: through all of them is just that and not because
Speaker 1: I'm in the position of expertise, but just because I
Speaker 1: also love the example of just being a rap from
Speaker 1: the bush who's come in and with no clue and
Speaker 1: accidentally done a good job of business. I think that's
Speaker 1: something to be proud of, because I know a lot
Speaker 1: of people put a lot more time and energy into
Speaker 1: learning how to business and I somehow snuck through and
Speaker 1: did it too.
Speaker 2: Really, that's really interesting that idea of teaching, and I
Speaker 2: do do you think that that is a thread through
Speaker 2: your entire career because so many people I know who
Speaker 2: love you. People have come in at different moments and like,
Speaker 2: I've got a friend who went through a breakup and
Speaker 2: you were her absolute All she talked about was how
Speaker 2: you were her guru. And when I was pregnant, I
Speaker 2: had all with pelvic pais, Oh my god, I'm so sorry,
Speaker 2: and I went so deep. I'm like, like, what do
Speaker 2: you do? Okay? Like, there are all these different avenues
Speaker 2: where people connect to you, and I think it's because
Speaker 2: you're very generous with what you share and how you
Speaker 2: share it, and recommendations and being honest about the things
Speaker 2: that maybe people aren't always honest about. It's like, especially
Speaker 2: when it comes to something like business at the moment
Speaker 2: like that, so many people are quite they're gay cape
Speaker 2: gaykeepe the business information.
Speaker 1: It's weird, isn't that. There's a very specific character in
Speaker 1: the book who is really generous, and she's got American
Speaker 1: sensibility to business, which is very different to Australian, which is, oh,
Speaker 1: I know a guy, I'll hook you up. I'll know
Speaker 1: it is and often, unfortunately in Australia, particularly when I
Speaker 1: was starting out, no one would share their chemist or
Speaker 1: their factories or anything they're packaging people. Now, of course
Speaker 1: you've got full service companies that will do that all
Speaker 1: for you. It's changed so much. But I don't want
Speaker 1: to be that guy. I want to be the guy
Speaker 1: that helps everybody. There is enough pie for everybody, and
Speaker 1: I think a greedy gatekeeping mindset it will only come
Speaker 1: back to you. Generosity doesn't cost anything. You're helping so
Speaker 1: many people. I get tear when people come up to
Speaker 1: me and say, oh, I read Breakup Boss and then
Speaker 1: I gave it to seven of my friends. It really
Speaker 1: really helped, or thank you your face helped my explorer,
Speaker 1: whatever it may be. Because I'm like I didn't intend
Speaker 1: for that to be the outcome, but so that it did.
Speaker 1: Or even like I took your restaurant recommendation with Queenstown,
Speaker 1: I'm like, great, I saved you some time and you
Speaker 1: had a good meal off that. I love that because
Speaker 1: I wish for that. I just want the edit of life. Please?
Speaker 1: Can I have the edit? What supplement do I take?
Speaker 1: What's the meditation app that I should be using? What's
Speaker 1: the book to read? Like clear the clutter and just
Speaker 1: let me get to it.
Speaker 2: And it's also a bit of a fast track to
Speaker 2: human connection. I think it is that you're able to
Speaker 2: like I went to read a book the other day
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, yes, it's got recommended to me.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I saw it old Zoomy's Instagram.
Speaker 1: It's got recommended. What was it? Do you love it?
Speaker 2: It's the Taffy Book. Yeah. I was like, oh, I
Speaker 2: loved her first book. I must read it. Yes, and
Speaker 2: she's brill But it is that idea of having somebody
Speaker 2: you can trust and you know their recommendations have served
Speaker 2: you well in the past. You feel connected to them again.
Speaker 1: It's the hoobers because I'm like, who's to say my
Speaker 1: taste is your taste. But it's not like I chose
Speaker 1: that book out of like the usually prize when I'm like,
Speaker 1: if you haven't read this, you do, it's amazing. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I like the time saying aspect and it's really just
Speaker 1: putting out what I want to get back, which is
Speaker 1: now you recommend me something. You won't help each other out.
Speaker 2: What currently keeps you from happiness?
Speaker 1: Keeps me from happiness? I think it's usually sleep. I
Speaker 1: think sleep. It's very well known for a lot of
Speaker 1: people that sleep is my number one mental health kryptonite.
Speaker 1: So I prioritize it it all costs, and if I've slept,
Speaker 1: I can do anything. I haven't slept a monster, And
Speaker 1: I've become very good at power napping to get back
Speaker 1: on track, like to start the day again, to take
Speaker 1: the nap to start fresh, which I think there's napping's
Speaker 1: got a bad stigma, but a lot of writers nap.
Speaker 1: It's better than their fourth coffee, or it's a twenty
Speaker 1: minute meditation, or you're going to in d something. So
Speaker 1: sleep is what keeps me from happiness. And probably fear
Speaker 1: a little bit just what we're going back to before
Speaker 1: about like putting things out into the world and hoping
Speaker 1: that it hits and in the amount of times we
Speaker 1: put up a new product or a launch or something,
Speaker 1: and I'm waiting for the thing we did wrong. What's
Speaker 1: going to blindside me here? Even with the book, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, have I offended someone? Or that world we
Speaker 1: live in now where I'm on edge of that vigilance
Speaker 1: of like what can they get me for here, which
Speaker 1: is very telling, I think. So I'm always aware that
Speaker 1: that's going to happen without trying to preempt or manifest it.
Speaker 1: It's a fine line. Yeah, I think I'm happy to
Speaker 1: take risks, but I'm also aware that it's not for everyone,
Speaker 1: and that's okay. I don't want to be for everyone. No,
Speaker 1: I think there's that saying that if you try and
Speaker 1: be for everyone, you are by definition average. So definitely, yeah,
Speaker 1: definitely just find your people and write for them.
Speaker 2: In terms of sleep, because I think maybe a lot
Speaker 2: of people realize the importance of sleep when they have
Speaker 2: a child for the first time and you're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I thought i'd been strived before. No lack of sleep,
Speaker 2: How does that manifest in terms of mental health?
Speaker 1: I'm a bitch. I'm snappy with my children, my anxiety ramps.
Speaker 1: I can't write. My dopamine hunting has increased one hundredfold
Speaker 1: by food, by scrolling, by just silly tasks that don't
Speaker 1: actually need doing. I just feel wayward. So I don't
Speaker 1: have that focus and I really need that. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm forty four, So perimonopause is a real thing.
Speaker 1: The anxiety and the sleeplessness big thing. So I've I've
Speaker 1: had my diagnostics and I've got something to help me
Speaker 1: sleep now and it's medicinal CBD and fabulous high the
Speaker 1: right and yeah, so I just needed to sort that out.
Speaker 1: Like I said before, anything else would work because I
Speaker 1: have this limit of three nights bad sleep, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I will book a fucking hotel. Yeah, I need to sleep.
Speaker 1: Something's got to give. So yeah, I've never got to
Speaker 1: that stage, but that's how I feel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because one night you can one night adrenaline. Yeah,
Speaker 2: two nights you feel terrible. Three nights I'm a rash.
Speaker 2: I've lost all rationality. And then I actually start convincing
Speaker 2: myself I don't need sleep. And that's when you know
Speaker 2: you've gone nuts, is you're like sleep, who needs sleep?
Speaker 2: And then you're like, I need that's very hard with
Speaker 2: your child, It's very hard.
Speaker 1: And I had my anxiety only started when I had children.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have characterized myself as an anxious person prior
Speaker 1: to that, but a baby who I had to keep
Speaker 1: alive was a big deal and sleep was not great.
Speaker 1: No bad cycle contributes.
Speaker 2: To it when you are tired, getting defensive, not being
Speaker 2: your best self. Are there people around you? Because I
Speaker 2: think sometimes in terms of our happiness, sometimes we're not
Speaker 2: even the best person to know how to make ourselves happy.
Speaker 2: Sometimes the people around us are way better at seeing
Speaker 2: things objectively. Are there people who call you out and
Speaker 2: pull you into line? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well, my husband, he's a very lovely man, and it's
Speaker 1: not his first instinct. He'll usually cop a few blows
Speaker 1: before it'll be like, what's wrong with you? But I
Speaker 1: would have already prefaced it. I'm like, I'm tired, I
Speaker 1: didn't say the worst sleep last night? Why did the
Speaker 1: garbage man came at five in the morning? La la la,
Speaker 1: So I've already let everybody know. Yeah, yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 1: he calls me and of course and my kids were
Speaker 1: just looking heartbreaking, like what are you being mean, are
Speaker 1: you being too snappy? That's horrible. So yeah, I know
Speaker 1: when i'm it's a wake up in the morning feeling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I already know it's there. I tell myself, Oh, you're
Speaker 1: being a bitch, like saw your shit, and it's twenty minutes.
Speaker 1: I just need twenty minutes to just go and meditate
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, I'm such a better person, and I'm
Speaker 1: really okay with asking for that now, Like even in
Speaker 1: big family function moments where by law you're not allowed
Speaker 1: to just excuse yourself to do anything. But I'm like, ah,
Speaker 1: I don't like any of you for a minute. I'm
Speaker 1: going to go just become a nicer person. Then we're
Speaker 1: gonna have a great day.
Speaker 2: I think maybe I need to do that. I need
Speaker 2: to do that in a lot of social situations because
Speaker 2: otherwise I push through and I'm like it's written all
Speaker 2: over my face. Yes, everybody knows how I'm feeling. Yes,
Speaker 2: I think I'm hiding it. Yeah, no, no, no, no, Right now,
Speaker 2: you've got a new novel out. Things will calm down soon.
Speaker 2: You've got a wildly successful business, are you happy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. To the point where when this podcast was pitched,
Speaker 1: I was like, no, I can't do that. I am happy,
Speaker 1: won't be very interested, being very disingenious and pretend like
Speaker 1: I'm not the most lucky woman on it. Now I
Speaker 1: feel not only happy, but thriving. I feel inspired. I
Speaker 1: feel very fortunate. I know we're not allowed to say lucky,
Speaker 1: but I do feel lucky. I feel grateful. I think
Speaker 1: gratitude is my massive antidote to sadness or anger, irritability.
Speaker 1: Is just to switch it to a mindset of gratitude,
Speaker 1: which is does sound like a privileged thing to say,
Speaker 1: but anyone, no matter your situation, can turn to gratitude.
Speaker 1: Just for the health of my children, my family, This
Speaker 1: incredibly fortunate life I'm living. So I'm very happy and
Speaker 1: I feel excited and compelled. And that is because I
Speaker 1: took care of myself this year. When I wrote this book,
Speaker 1: Things will come Down Soon was something I would throughout
Speaker 1: all the time and we would laugh ha ha ha,
Speaker 1: No it won't. Hamis should be like that is your life,
Speaker 1: you idiot, you know, come on. But then this June,
Speaker 1: I actually for the first time had a proper break
Speaker 1: from work because the book was in at the printers
Speaker 1: and you can't do anymore except start publicity and go
Speaker 1: to was in a bit of a production phase that
Speaker 1: there was a lull and I was able to just
Speaker 1: take a couple of weeks to not be the sort
Speaker 1: of level of stress Kit is in Living Dead Yay,
Speaker 1: which was very normal for me for about three years
Speaker 1: because I had two deals and a novel and day
Speaker 1: to day work and young family and I felt like
Speaker 1: a different person because I was very burnt out at
Speaker 1: the start of the year, burnt out at Jason and
Speaker 1: I went to a health camp, which I hadn't done
Speaker 1: since for eight years, and I was a different person
Speaker 1: when I came back. And I remember at the start
Speaker 1: of this year, my mum, she always does my neurology,
Speaker 1: She's like, you're in a seven year. I'm fuck it,
Speaker 1: I need to have been four year four years of work.
Speaker 1: Here she goes, you've done your four years, You're in
Speaker 1: a seven year And I'm like, but that's like it's
Speaker 1: inner and it's meditative and you learn your skills and
Speaker 1: you'll take care of yourself and you go in and
Speaker 1: she said, but can't you see how important that is
Speaker 1: in this year? And I'm like, no, no, this is
Speaker 1: my big year, this is our go to his tenth birthday.
Speaker 1: My book's out, I've got two children's books out. I
Speaker 1: need to be the peacock this year. And she said,
Speaker 1: but you can't do any of that if you haven't
Speaker 1: looked after yourself. And so that's why I have boundaries
Speaker 1: around eventing or filming or anything that takes a lot
Speaker 1: of energy from me. And all family time weekend is
Speaker 1: family time, and all of those boundaries are in place
Speaker 1: to protect me so that I can do better work
Speaker 1: and have a better mindset and be happier and sleep.
Speaker 1: You know, sleep our aoh whole family. I made them
Speaker 1: obsessed about sleep. The kids don't care. Aisha and I
Speaker 1: are very devout sleep. Sleep is our religion.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like now that the book is out
Speaker 2: and the business, I mean, as somebody who doesn't understand
Speaker 2: business at all, the business isn't a really good place.
Speaker 2: Have things calm down?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I mean. It's a weird time to
Speaker 1: be talking about the book because things did calm down
Speaker 1: for June and now I'm busy again. But I think
Speaker 1: I needed to know that it could calm down, but
Speaker 1: the soon was coming. Yeah, I just I needed to
Speaker 1: know it was a fact, not just this myth of
Speaker 1: this carrot dangling of like one day, so I know
Speaker 1: it can be calm and I know this. It's on me.
Speaker 1: It's how much I undertake. But I love new projects,
Speaker 1: you know. I love studying a new book. I'm already
Speaker 1: excited to write a new book. I like to be busy.
Speaker 1: I like to be working. I like to do good
Speaker 1: work to the point where even if they weren't published
Speaker 1: and weren't read, and I would still want to do it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's me not starting a new project too quickly,
Speaker 1: and I've got to hold myself back. I'm like, get
Speaker 1: this baby out first. Please just focus on this book,
Speaker 1: don't stud new one yet. So I'm back. Feels good.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time today. I really
Speaker 2: appreciate it. That's all we've got time for. On today's
Speaker 2: episode of But Are You Happy? Zoe Foster Blake's latest
Speaker 2: novel about the chaos of business and being a founder
Speaker 2: and juggling a family between it all, is called Things
Speaker 2: Will Calm Down Soon, and it's out on the first
Speaker 2: of October. It's brilliant and I can promise you you
Speaker 2: will not be able to put it down. But it's
Speaker 2: also incredibly insightful and challenges a lot of ideas we
Speaker 2: hold about women and money and success and power. Will
Speaker 2: pop a link into the show notes. This conversation went
Speaker 2: beyond the veneer of the glamorous, aspirational life of Zoe
Speaker 2: Foster Blake to the charismatic, clever, and generous person who
Speaker 2: sat opposite me in the studio. I want to thank
Speaker 2: her for everything she shared in our conversation. And if
Speaker 2: there's anyone you know who you think might get something
Speaker 2: out of this episode, please share it with them. If
Speaker 2: you want to recommend anyone for the show, you can
Speaker 2: message me on Instagram, and if you like the show,
Speaker 2: leave us a review. We always love your feedback. Next week,
Speaker 2: I speak to Amy Shark about the tension of getting
Speaker 2: everything you ever wanted. The executive producer, but are you Happy,
Speaker 2: is Niama Brown and the producer is Charlie Blackman. Audio
Speaker 2: editing by Scott Stronning. I'm your host, Le Stevens, and
Speaker 2: we'll see you next week.