1 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: So you're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: I am a perfectionist. I don't think that's a positive thing. 5 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: I think it's actually really fear masquerading as perfectionism. I 6 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: think sometimes the times when everything's meant to be perfect 7 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: and you feel like it built it up so much 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: in your mind and it fails, it's not a failure. 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: It's a lesson that's always meant to be. 10 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to but are you happy? The podcast 11 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 2: that asks the questions you've always wanted to know from 12 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: the people who appear to have it all. I'm Claire 13 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: Stevens and today's guest is one who has been at 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 2: the very top of my wish list since I first 15 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: had the idea for this show. In terms of people 16 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,919 Speaker 2: with aspirational lives, Zoe Foster Blake is in a league 17 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 2: of her own. She's an author of fiction and nonfit 18 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 2: and children's books, a skincare founder and an entrepreneur, and 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 2: as a fixture of Australian media, she's known for her warm, 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: handid funny tone, one that is profoundly distinct to her. 21 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: I read Zoe's novels in my twenties. She's written a 22 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: lot of them, and they're the kinds of stories that 23 00:01:27,679 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 2: feel like a cozy, comfortable hug from a friend. She 24 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 2: then launched Go to Skincare, an iconic now international skincare company, 25 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: And while I don't know a lot about business and 26 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,919 Speaker 2: stakes and shares, it's worth many, many, many ends of 27 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: million dollars. So obviously I have a million questions for her, 28 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: because she really does have the secret source. Unlucky for us, 29 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: Zoe is not into gatekeeping. She's one of those people 30 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: who really does believe that there's enough success for everyone, 31 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: and she likes to teach. Over the years, Zoe Foster 32 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: Blake has taught me about vitamin C and face oils 33 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: and hyaluronic acid, and I distinctly remember a mind blowing 34 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: makeup to you to talk where she put flush on 35 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 2: her nose and it really does brighten up your whole faith. 36 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: But in this interview, she taught me a lot more 37 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: about boundaries, about success, about drive, about creativity, and of 38 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: course about happiness. He's Zoey Foster Black. You in your 39 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 2: early career, like me, you worked for Mayor Friedman. Tell 40 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: me when you were in your early twenties working at 41 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: Cosmo and then harp As Bizarre. Who were you at 42 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: that stage in your life. 43 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: Oh, it was such a great time. I came in 44 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: at twenty three knowing nothing about beauty editing at all, 45 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: but I'd worked in kids' mags and music mags before then, 46 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: so I'd grow on my teath a little bit. But 47 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: I'd just come out of a big breakup, and I 48 00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: really felt like it was my Carry Bradshaw moment because 49 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: I was suddenly in this glamorous job, at this glamorous building, 50 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: all of these glamorous women who I'd looked up to 51 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: for so long. Yes, pinched me moment, and so I 52 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: embraced it. I started dressing up for work, which you 53 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: had to any way, and my confidence really bloomed, and 54 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: I it was the first time I really felt like 55 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: part of a team and part of something bigger. And 56 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: I had not had a great relationship with other women 57 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: before that. I had a really good best female friend 58 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: at school, but I had a lot of male friends. 59 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: I just thought they were easier, less bullshit, and we 60 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: just would be idiots together. And there was more emphasis 61 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: on comedy with the boys. So it was the first 62 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: time I fell in love with women really and saw 63 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: them not as competitors or as boring and whatever I 64 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: thought of them during school, and just fell in love 65 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: with women and being part of something really fun. 66 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: When you were a beauty editor, did you feel like 67 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: it was enough? Like when you were you were at 68 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: that stage in your career and you are getting all 69 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: these opportunities and you're writing about beauty and really making 70 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: a name for yourself. Were you more ambitious than that? Yes? 71 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: And the proof came quickly because Mia quickly put me 72 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: in charge of lifestyle as well, and I started writing 73 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: dating columns. I had all of the time in the 74 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: world and all of the energy, and I just wanted 75 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: to do everything. Started a beauty blog, so I'd write 76 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: that in the mornings before work, jump on the bus, 77 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: drive in to going to work, then go to events afterwards. 78 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: And then I remember sort of feeling like I needed 79 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: to move on, like I've been at Cosmo for a 80 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: few years, and it was actually me who said, just 81 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: can you write a book or something like? Just stay here, 82 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: but do something else to keep you busy. And I'd 83 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: always thought I might write fiction. My father's an author, 84 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: and I thought beauty editing was just this mad world. 85 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it existed. I could get sent stuff 86 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: to play with and that's your job. That's actually your job, 87 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: and you get to take it home. So yeah, So 88 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: I was blogging, working full time, writing a column, and 89 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: writing a book and that was just enough. 90 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 2: And Maya approached you at one stage for the deputy 91 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: editor job or. 92 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: Was some kind of an emotion, Yeah. 93 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 2: And you said no because it would involve people management 94 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: and leaning more into the business side. And you probably 95 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 2: don't know this, but Maya uses you as an example 96 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 2: in a lot of like mentoring conversations where she's like, 97 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: which path do you want to go down? She calls 98 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 2: it like the ladder or the lattice? Yeah, and she's 99 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: like she offers you as one option, and it's like, well, 100 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: no one's going to want to go down the other line. 101 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 2: Everyone just wants to be zoie. So she says, how 102 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 2: you said no to that because you didn't want to 103 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: do that. 104 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: There was hard role, Yeah, and you would. 105 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: Have been sacrificing your creativity. 106 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 107 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 2: How were you so self assured at that point to 108 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 2: say no? 109 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: Ubris. I really think it was Ubris because there is 110 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: a lot of creativity in being an editor or a 111 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: director of something, because you ultimately, now as a founder ancident, 112 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: you're setting the visionary tone, you can shape a magazine, 113 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: you're pulling a team together to create something incredible together. 114 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: But at that time I saw the man just as 115 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: a management role and a business role and a meetings 116 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: and only writing you did was the ace. I was like, 117 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: oh god, no, I'm a writer, and I am a writer. 118 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: Writing informs everything I do if you really drill down 119 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: on it. So I saw that pretty clearly, and it 120 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: probably was pretty offensive back then at like twenty six 121 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: to say oh thanks, I just knew that it. Yeah, 122 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't be enough writing for me. 123 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: Are you good at saying no? 124 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: And also being an editor seemed really stressful? Yeah, a 125 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: lot of public facing stuff. Yeah, that scared this shit 126 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: out of me. Even as a bidiad you would have 127 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: to present to brand and it just ough heart. 128 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: Attacks, which is ironic now given what you do heart attacks. 129 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 2: But yeah, when you said no to that, is that 130 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: something you're good at saying no when things come up? 131 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: That just not yes, something that serves you. I love 132 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: no and how do you say no? 133 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: It took me a while to learn it, but it 134 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: is a real skill. And there are a few key 135 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: thinkers that I always look to, like Kevin Kelly and 136 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: Seth Godin, who I just firm believers in. You know 137 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: that old adage when you say no to then you're 138 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: saying yes to you. But it's really about the more 139 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: busy you get, having children, having a business, trying to 140 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: feed all these different rounds, you just have to be 141 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: a lot more careful about what you say yes to 142 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: and saying yes to a gig or a job or something. 143 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: It's never just that two hours on stage, as you know, 144 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: there's a lot of admin and emailing and sorting out 145 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: and contracts and travel and all of those things. And 146 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: it's a real privilege to be able to say no 147 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: to a lot of stuff now. But I have reached 148 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: that point because I've done the twenty years earlier of 149 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: building up that confidence but also that comfortable position to 150 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: be able to have my own business and writing books 151 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: and my family and that's all I do. 152 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: How do you say no? Because I'm such a people plaser, 153 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: and it's probably one of my big issues is that. 154 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: Please yourself, please yourself at this time. 155 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: I know. But like if somebody comes to you and 156 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: you say no, and then they do that thing of 157 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: like coming back to you with more reasons why. 158 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: You can't give you can't give an explanation. 159 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: So what's the one sentence though, of to Blake Way 160 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: to say that. 161 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: You just say thank you so much? Sounds great. I 162 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: can't be there, but I hope it goes really well 163 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: because if you say, oh, I can't do it that 164 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: week they were like, oh, what dates are you free? 165 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: Then never explain, just say it's a no, and with 166 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: kindness because you're like, thank you so much for thinking 167 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: of me. This is going to be a great event, 168 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: but it's not for me. And I think it's that 169 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: really firm boundary. It's not rude, it's just it's a no. 170 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 2: And I guess that's the only way that you're able 171 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 2: to focus on the stuff, yeap, that really matters to 172 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: you and to do the really really big projects like 173 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: building a huge business. 174 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: And that is it. And I think also you get 175 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: to a point where like you either remember if you're 176 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: saying yes to someone that's beneficial to them, that's helping 177 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: their brand and their I'd rather help my brand and 178 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: my team. Yeah, and what I'm doing over here. So 179 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: that's the choice you make too, You're like, oh, I'm 180 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: back myself. 181 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: I have a theory that the world lies to us 182 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: a bit about happiness, and that often the moments that 183 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: we expect to be that happy is actually arn't. And 184 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 2: that's sort of what this podcast is about, that there 185 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 2: are these times where we have all these ideas about 186 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 2: how something should feel, and things might look really, really 187 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 2: really shiny from the outside, and that's not the reality. 188 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,599 Speaker 2: Do you have an example of a time where externally 189 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 2: things looked great, but under the surface they weren't. 190 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: Probably, although a hand on heart, I'd try never to 191 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: be disingenious, and I'd rather omit than pretend. I don't 192 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: think it's helpful to portray that perfection. I know that's 193 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: obviously a lot of what social media is about, and 194 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: I know there are a lot of people in our 195 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: how a being very open about their vulnerabilities and their 196 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: mental health, and I think it's very helpful for a 197 00:09:55,680 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: lot of people to see that. I can honestly say 198 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: that that doesn't happen for me very often. There's certainly 199 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: been big pockets of my life where things were meant 200 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: to be fantastic and amazing. But that's always not really 201 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: about the outside observer going, hey, this looks perfect, but 202 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: me placing those expectations on it and going you should 203 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: be having the time of your life because I've worked 204 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: so hard to make it perfect. In my mind, I 205 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: am a perfectionist. I don't think that's a positive thing. 206 00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: I think it's actually really fear masquerading as perfectionism. A 207 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: big one was the arrogance of taking a gap year 208 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: after year twelve and sort of telling everyone in my 209 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: small town I'm going in the big city. You know, 210 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: I need a break from study. Oh my god, and 211 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: taking a year off before going to UNI and moving 212 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: to Sydney in a gust of like speed. I was seventeen. 213 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: I had no money, nothing, nothing saved. I wasn't going 214 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: to Africa to help orphanages. I wasn't going to work 215 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: overseas or travel. I didn't have a job. I just 216 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: moved to Sydney in the sharehouse and I only had 217 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 1: my grandma and my sister in Sydney, and I had 218 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: the most miserable, broke, sad, pathetic year of my life. 219 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: And I would go home for birthdays or twenty first 220 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: or whatever and had to pretend that everything was going great. 221 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: For example, I was working in the dungeon of the 222 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: Intercontinental selling their loyalty card as a telemarketer for zero dollars, 223 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: and so I would tell everyone I was working at 224 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: the Intercontinental. I was also a nightpacker at Cold like 225 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: I was. I did a lot of terrible jobs. But 226 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: I now am so grateful for that year, because without 227 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: the depths of being super duper broke and having not 228 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: a friend and no clue and just being aimless, I 229 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: would never allow myself to feel like that again. I 230 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: just really realized that I need to be busy, I 231 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: need to have some purpose, I need to have friends, 232 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: and I need to have some money. M So, I 233 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: think that year and that was silly, yeah, and some 234 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: could say a waste of a year, but because I 235 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: was also so young, it didn't really matter. I still 236 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: started union everybody else. But yeah, I think sometimes the 237 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: times when everything's meant to be perfect and you feel 238 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: like you built it up so much in your mind 239 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: and it fails, it's not a failure, it's a lesson. 240 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: It's always meant to. 241 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: Be in your new novel. Things will calm down soon. 242 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: Something I really took away from it was the kind 243 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: of unrelenting pressure of being a founder and how you 244 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 2: have these achievements that I just cannot even imagine in 245 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: terms of what you've built, yet at the same time 246 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: you kind of can't sit there to take it in 247 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: because there's always a million other things you need to 248 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 2: be doing. Have you had that experience with business sometimes 249 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 2: that you look around and think, this is incredible, but 250 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 2: I'm not able to feel it. 251 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: And I think anyone who works in like im media 252 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: where you're aways thinking about the next show or the 253 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: next magazine or the next whatever where it's working, you 254 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: haven't many months ahead. Yeah, it's it's a real trap 255 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: because you never take a moment to stop and think 256 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: it's only happened a few times over the years, and 257 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: it's like it was seeing our products and Saphara in 258 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: the States, and it's always the Christmas party where I 259 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: stop and look around and go, oh my god, these people, 260 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: I love them, Look what they've done, Look what we've 261 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: created together, or feedback from customers where you know whether 262 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: it's an airport or an email, and it's just that 263 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: pure thank you. This has changed my skin. And I 264 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: think those little reminders. People might not give founders feedback 265 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: because they expect that they'll get it all the time, 266 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: But we really need it because it's a really kind 267 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: of busy and lonely position a lot of the time. 268 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: You're the director and you're meant to have all the 269 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: ideas and you have this eternal type of creativity and 270 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: excitement and you're public facing. But well, you do get 271 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: the good jobs thumbs ups, but you you yourself will 272 00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: never actually take a moment to stop. Yeah, and you've 273 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: got to force yourself to do it. And I think 274 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: the Christmas party is always a good one for me. 275 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: Does your business like at that go to Christmas party? 276 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 2: When you see your products in Sephora that. 277 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: Was in the States? Yeah, we're in Meca. 278 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. When you have those moments, is it happiness that 279 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 2: you feel or is it something else? Like what does 280 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 2: business give you? 281 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: I think it might be a scene, but pride. I 282 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: feel proud. I feel proud that I didn't know anything 283 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: about business, and I didn't know anything about creating a 284 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: team in a workplace and a culture and satisfying a customer. 285 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: I had done it a little bit through my writing, 286 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: I guess, creating a project that people can hold in 287 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: their hands and enjoy. But it's pride and it's always 288 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: a bit of how did you get here? I wouldn't 289 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: say it's imposter syndrome. I don't I'm past that for that. 290 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: But it's pride and a little bit of fascination. Y's cow, 291 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: but smile. 292 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 2: Do you get the sense of like I'm leaving a 293 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: legacy and I've created something bigger than myself. There's some 294 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: like almost immortality there. 295 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have said yes to that, because it feels 296 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: silly for a skincare brand to have a legacy. But 297 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: when I was buying my company back last year, this 298 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: huge maternal instinct came in and I just felt so 299 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: protective of what fills my cupboard. I would be bereft 300 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: if I had no more go to, let alone the 301 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: million of customers who love it and use it every 302 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: day and our team, and I just thought, this is 303 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: something that enhances people's lives that they really enjoy, and 304 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: it gives them a little moment without getting to this 305 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: is saving the earth. It's just a nice moment for 306 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: people that they like, and it filled a gap and 307 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: I'm proud of that. Don't fuck it up, don't ruin it. 308 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: It's really really hard to get a brand that people 309 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: resonate with. It's really hard to get that stickiness and 310 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: that loyalty in their community. How dare you ruin that? 311 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: Like you're so lucky? So yeah, I really just went 312 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: into full speed mode and six year and just went 313 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: at all costs. Yeah, this must keep going. We want 314 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: to be a household name in Australia. That's our goal. 315 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: Our big goal is to be a household name in Australia. 316 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: And we can do it. We've been in BIS for 317 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: ten years and I think we'll get there. 318 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 2: After the break, Zoe and I talk about her strengths 319 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 2: and weaknesses as a business founder, and more about her 320 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: book and why she'd be happy to just sit and 321 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: write for the rest of our life. What do you 322 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 2: think is your biggest strength as a founder? 323 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: I think creativity, but also coupled with risk. I'm not 324 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: averse to risk. I think you have to lean into 325 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: risk and be really okay with both outcomes, and they're 326 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: not always going to be great. You won't hear about 327 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: the bad outcomes. You'll only see the good ones, but 328 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: take the chance. And that's what I love about us 329 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: being privately owned again and small and nimble, is there 330 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: is no bureaucracy. We can do whatever we want, and 331 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: I think sometimes we forget that. And I think when 332 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: you're trying too hard to think about what the customer 333 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: is thinking, you're overthinking it and you need to go 334 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: back to what we're thinking. Because when I started the brand, 335 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: I had blinkers on. I didn't care about what every 336 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: other brand was doing. That was twelve years ago. Now 337 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: it's a really saturated landscape, and when you're in retail 338 00:17:07,879 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 1: like Mecca and you're up against these beautiful international brands, 339 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: you have to be a bit o mindful about what 340 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: you're up against and how you can stand out. So 341 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 1: I like that. I think within discipline there's freedom, and 342 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: I like those boundaries because it allows me to be 343 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: more creative and push against things a bit more. 344 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: So. 345 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: I'm always reminding the team to be cheekier, be a 346 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: bit naughtier, where the Rogue Train like, we take beauty 347 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: not too seriously. It's allowed to be fun, and we 348 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: like to make things fun that have no right to be. 349 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: It's like on the back of the packaging and little 350 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: moments on the website, We're like, that's allowed. No one 351 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: said you can't have fun. So I think being cheeky 352 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: and taking risks is probably what I bring. 353 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 2: Is that similar to how you approach creativity in general, 354 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: like in terms of writing, in terms of every creative 355 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 2: project you've embarked on, do you kind of have that 356 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: cheekiness risk taking a bit of like a no fear Yeah. 357 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: And it's funny because I don't think of myself as fearless. 358 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: I'm quite anxious person, but I think with creative projects, 359 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: I do feel pretty reckless, and I think that it's 360 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: a good place to be in. And maybe I wouldn't 361 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: have at the start with my earlier novels because I 362 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: really needed them to work so that would validate me 363 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: and get me to do another one. That would like, oh, 364 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: if that works and I get to do another one, 365 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: I still feel that if this works, I get to 366 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: do another one. Is kind of my barometer of success 367 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: as well as how it resonates with the reader. So 368 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: it's a funny thing because you sort of there's a 369 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: selfishness to writing a piece of work that you're really 370 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: happy with and you love because I guess human to 371 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: be writing for the reader, but I can't write for 372 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: the reader because I don't know what they want and 373 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: what they're thinking. So I have to try and assume 374 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: that what I like is good taste. 375 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's. 376 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: Arrogant, I guess. But I feel confident enough at forty 377 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: four in my taste and in my work to be 378 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: able to work on it to a point where I 379 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: feel like it's good enough to go out there and 380 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: I could edit for ten years. I really could, and 381 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,120 Speaker 1: I could hone and hone and hone. 382 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 2: But yeah, so I feel fearless. 383 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: And I loved Things Will Come Down Soon because to 384 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: me it felt genuinely innovative in terms of it's not 385 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: a business book, but you can learn so much about 386 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: business in it. And I just thought that Venn diagram 387 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: a crossover of a founder who's an active founder, a 388 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: proven entrepreneur, and a fiction writer coming together to offer 389 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: something unique, something for everyone, hopefully. So yeah, I think 390 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: you got it back. 391 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:32,360 Speaker 2: Yourself, as somebody who knows absolutely nothing about business, reading 392 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 2: Things Will Come Down Soon was so fascinating and you 393 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 2: could really feel the stakes. I don't think I've ever 394 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 2: felt stakes like that because you don't really read books 395 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 2: about business and especially women in business. Yes, you so 396 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: rarely read those stories. Yet it feels very of the 397 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: moment because there are so many female entrepreneurs, there are 398 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: so many women building their own things. How did you decide? 399 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 2: Because as a reader, part of my fascination is trying 400 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,360 Speaker 2: to work out parallels and who's who when looking at 401 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 2: all the characters. How did you creatively break your own 402 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: experience and writing something that was going to be very, 403 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 2: very distinct and not kind of make people look at 404 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 2: your life and one of the. 405 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: Oh, and they will, that's okay. The reason I love 406 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: fiction is very freeing and it's very liberating. And god, 407 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: I remember even back in the air Kiss's days talking 408 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: to me about it, going, oh, I might write like 409 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: it's a bit of a water biographic. Are you insane? 410 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: You're twenty five. You're going to burn all your bridges 411 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: way too early. 412 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 413 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: And my father as well, He's like, fiction is so 414 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: fun because you can mutate ten people into one to 415 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: get the perfect person with the perfect idiosyncrasies. And so 416 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: for me, each character works hard in this book to 417 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: pull the narrative through. There's no fat in there. They're 418 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: all there to support kids trajectory and to show the 419 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: different facets of her life and her personality. So I 420 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: can hand on heart say this is not my life 421 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 1: and these are not my people. But certainly there's aspects 422 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: of these people that I've known. And also I'm meant 423 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:22,959 Speaker 1: to a lot of young founders, and I've heard their 424 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: horror stories, and so a lot of that have come in. 425 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: I didn't want to write my deal. My deal is 426 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: unique and circumstantial, and it's been written about, and I 427 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: wanted to create something new. And also every deal and 428 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: every business is so specifically impersonal, and it's a moment 429 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: in time, and you know, there's so many factors that 430 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: come into the success of a business. So I didn't 431 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: want to necessarily replicate my own story. 432 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 2: I think what makes the book so vivid, and you 433 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 2: become so in Kit's world because your creativity and marketing 434 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 2: brain is all over it. Because even the business that 435 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: Kit has, which is second day Hair, you can't help 436 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 2: but be like, can somebody invent that? 437 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: I know I'm thinking about it, genuinely. 438 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: I was like, did you get halfway through the book 439 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: and think, oh wait, maybe I should also invent the product. 440 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's trademarked. 441 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 2: Is it actually your site? 442 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: Ma? 443 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 2: Me was like, maybe I should steal that. 444 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: I do not the first I mean, there are products 445 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: out there that exist like this, but it couldn't be skin. Yeah, 446 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: And I didn't want to do makeup hair. I'm obsessed 447 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: with hair and hair products, styling, and I know honestly 448 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: about six or seven styles who become good friends, who 449 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 1: all want to have their own brand or have started, 450 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: and so it made perfect sense. But the product itself 451 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: had to be something that doesn't exist really and could 452 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: be very sort to a lot of people. So of course, 453 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: you know, lived experience. I'm going to put a bit 454 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: of myself in there and what I would do if 455 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: I was a founder, But yeah, kid exists as my 456 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: parable to show everything I've learned. And after my dealer, 457 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: I honestly sat down and went, I feel the duty 458 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: of taking everything I've learned from these very expensive lawyers 459 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: and advisors to share that knowledge with people who like 460 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: me perhaps and they're creative and have no clue about 461 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: this stuff. And I ran my gamut for a year 462 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: and I'm like, Okay, here's what I learned guys quick. 463 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: I needed to get it all down. 464 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 2: Obviously, it's an amazing book and it's page turner, and 465 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 2: I read it so bloody quickly. But I also think 466 00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 2: that there's something quite autruistic about it, because as a 467 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: woman who I can be kind of creative, the idea 468 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: of owning anything doesn't come naturally, and the idea of 469 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 2: trying to build something for yourself doesn't come naturally, and 470 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 2: so reading somebody's story where she does that, and then 471 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 2: all the nuances of how you set up the company 472 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 2: and what that then means down the line, and having 473 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 2: to have really difficult conversations. Even the role modeling of 474 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 2: the difficult conversations that King had was actually incredibly insightful. 475 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 2: Is there anyone who's going to read your book and 476 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 2: see themselves or be pissed off? No? 477 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: No, it shouldn't feel like that sort of book where 478 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: like I'm scorched earth about anything. All of the stressing 479 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: kickeits last she brought on herself. Yeah, yeah, she shouldn't 480 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: do that. The lessons that I put in there were 481 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: kind of really dramatized in terms of like equity, giving 482 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: away too much equity to start, or selling to people 483 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: who didn't really have your best interests at heart. And 484 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: I think I got to these positions or pivotal moments 485 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: in my business career where I could have made those mistakes, 486 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: and so I put them in the story to factors 487 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: protection and go did maybe not do that? So that 488 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: was the real head fuck when we with Kit was like, 489 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: do I want to show her making all the wrong 490 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: decisions or do I want to show making the right decisions? 491 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: But how do we learn from that? So I had 492 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: to find that sweet spot where she falters but you know, anyway, 493 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: I won't spilet, but certainly she's learning as she goes, 494 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: which I did to How do you. 495 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 2: Go with being a perfectionist and being a writer. 496 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: I think it's a skill. I don't see it as 497 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: a negative until submission time, and that's when a good 498 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: editor and a good copy of art are really vital. 499 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: Because I over wrote by thirty thousand words, which is 500 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: classic me good problem problem, Well sort of, but then 501 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: you know, and then I remember shaving off like a 502 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: thousand and getting it back and going, guys, it's don't worry, 503 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: it's ready tend to print. Then they're like, you're cute, 504 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: and then I think we had to get rid of 505 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 1: at least another twenty thousand. So at that point, though, 506 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 1: I just realized I'm in the hands of professionals, and 507 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: I don't fight them on it. There's a few lines 508 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,719 Speaker 1: I like, No, that's a really good line. Please come 509 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: and keep that. So yeah, I think you're going to 510 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: hand it over at one point, otherwise you'll just be 511 00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: paralyzed forever. 512 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 2: Is the perfectionism paralyzing in the first instance, Like when 513 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 2: you sit down to write. You wrote a blog post 514 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two called the Writer who Doesn't isn't 515 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 2: something I valish and you wrote about how you wanted 516 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 2: to establish a writing habit. 517 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: And you'll notice they haven't. That was like the last blog. 518 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: Well you wrote that blog and now you've got an 519 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: you did did someone else? But I can imagine you've 520 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: got your business, you've got family, you've got all this 521 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 2: stuff going on. Sit down in front of your computer. 522 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 2: Does the perfectionism emerge? 523 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: Then? No, not till the end, And I'm so down 524 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: with the rewrite if it's not working. There are a 525 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: couple of camps of writers. There are the writers who 526 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 1: say it's very hard, and I sit down, I really 527 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: and I get typewriter dohea. I just once the idea 528 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: has marinated for long enough, it's all there and it's 529 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: just a case of getting it out. Hence they're thirty 530 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: thousand overright. So for me, my problem is more like, 531 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 1: don't overwrite. You're just wasting your time. This is not good. 532 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: But I like to explore every character and every subplot 533 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: to give more reflection back to my protagonist. And then 534 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: in the end, if we realize it don't need that, 535 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: that and I can go. And I also really love dialogue, 536 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: and dialogue is hard to keep brief because real life 537 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: conversations are super wordy, and I think you learn a 538 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: lot about characters and conversations with others. So I love dialogue. 539 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: But no, my perfectionism comes in the end. I love 540 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: the edit. Some people hate it. It is quite mathematical, 541 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: which is not my normal brain superpower. Because you've got 542 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: a hard copy, this soft copy, the line edit that 543 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: comments underline, like, it's a lot for my brain, But 544 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: I know we're shaving it off to get to the 545 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: good stuff underneath. 546 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 2: When you look at all these different things you do, 547 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: where does your kind of a liveness come from? Is 548 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 2: it business or is it writing? 549 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: Writing is business? For me, so really go to for 550 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: a few reasons exists, but one of them was like, 551 00:27:57,120 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: I wanted to be a copywriter and I wasn't, so 552 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, make a brand, then I get to 553 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: do my own ads. I get to do my own 554 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: marketing and copy. As well as the fact that that 555 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: sort of range for cutting out the beauty editor was 556 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: what I wanted to do by making it range that 557 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: anyone could pick up and understand instantly, and it was 558 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: just genuinely very useful and effective. But I love recommendations 559 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: and I love saving people time and money. I'm like, I 560 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: just use this one. And that's what I've done is 561 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: a beauty editor for ten years. But the writing, so 562 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: I still write all the copy on primary and secondary 563 00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: vessels for the brand. Whatever you've hold in your hands, 564 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: I've written. I have an amazingly talented team who do 565 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: all the emails and social and everything. They're great at that. 566 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 1: But if you're holding it, I've written it because I 567 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: love that stuff, that little moment in the shower where 568 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: you get a little giggle. So I am a writer 569 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: no matter what I'm doing. Really, that's the essence of 570 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: it all, whether it's Instagram, I'm a writer. The picture 571 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: it's secondary. It's anything children's books, you know, even though 572 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: they are literally call picture books, I still want the 573 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: writing to really sing, and of course novels. So the 574 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: perfectionism it runs through everything. 575 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 2: How do you go about because obviously when may I 576 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 2: offered you the deputy editor job, you weren't into people managing. 577 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: Have you had two people manage? 578 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: Not really? And this is one of the things I 579 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: put in things will come down soon, is that it's 580 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: often feels curati. Founders often hire junior to start off 581 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: with to help them with admin or menial tasks. But 582 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: as Kit does, she hires very seen you, very early on. 583 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: And I think that's a good move because I know 584 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: what I'm good at and it's not people management, and 585 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: it's not running in a team and logistics and that 586 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: sort of thing. So I have a CEO and a 587 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: CIMO and I have grown ups in there doing that. 588 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: And that was a big important step in our growth 589 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: about five years in where I'm like, there was ten 590 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: of us, say, doing everything and not all of it great, 591 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: and so we brought into grown ups, we always say, 592 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: and they're fantastic. So no, no, I think you can 593 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: know what you're good at and invest in what you're 594 00:29:58,680 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: not good at. 595 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 2: How do you go being Zoe foster Blake the founder 596 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: and person working in this business and Zoe foster Blake 597 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 2: the brand Like, are you conscious when you come into 598 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 2: work that maybe you've got less of a margin of 599 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 2: error in terms of how you behave that day? 600 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: Totally? I think that's when you become a public figure 601 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: that's always in your mind anywhere you go and whatever 602 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: you do, particularly when your husband's a beacon for that stumes, 603 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: so you get used to being. 604 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 2: Watched. 605 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: I don't think my team do that. You know, we're 606 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: good people, we're all in it together. But I think 607 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: the public facing aspect of being a brand founder is 608 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: pretty highly scrutinized, particularly in beauty. Never used to be, 609 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: but it's become very studied. 610 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: And does that scare you? Does it give you anxiety? 611 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: Yeah? Totally, And it's an ongoing learning curve for me. 612 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it comes back to my 613 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: mental health at that point and how capable I am 614 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: of dealing this shit. So if I'm getting into trouble 615 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: online about something that we've done as a brand, if 616 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: I've not been sleeping if I'm super stressed and already pushed, 617 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: that affects me really a lot more, of course. But 618 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: if I'm in a good, clean state of mind and 619 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: I've been looking after myself, it's amazing the difference you 620 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: can do. So that will always happen, it's just how 621 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: I can react to it, and that's my goal in 622 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: terms of personal improvement as to not being so reactive 623 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: and recognizing at a moment in time my people pleasing 624 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: anxious side wants to fix it immediately, and I'm always 625 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: I want to write back and defend ourselves. That's my 626 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: first thing I'm going to do, and that's the first 627 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: thing you shouldn't do. It's never defend yourself. You know 628 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: people will be upset about things, and you have to 629 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: be respectful and also know what you know to be right. 630 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: So it's always going to be complicated that parasocial sort 631 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: of relationship, particularly if you feel like you're in trouble, 632 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: because I don't like feeling like I'm in trouble like 633 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: most people, particularly if you don't feel like you've done 634 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: the wrong thing. 635 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 2: There are examples in the book where there will be 636 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: certain things going on online or even there's like you know, 637 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 2: tiny doses of cancel culture sprinkled throughout, which is so 638 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: clever because that is part of what it is to 639 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 2: be a founder in this. 640 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: Day and age. 641 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 2: I know that sometimes you'll read something about yourself and 642 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 2: you're like, Eh, whatever, I don't care. And then there 643 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 2: are things that really upset you, and sometimes you can't 644 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 2: even articulate why what hurts. In the book, there's certain 645 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 2: things you can see that really get under kit skin. 646 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 2: Are there things that get under your skin? 647 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: I think it's assuming our intentions were other than what 648 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: they were. So for me, it's everything we do as 649 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: a brand is intended and designed and carefully calculated to 650 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: be joyful and educational and nurturing. That's what our company 651 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: does and that's why we put all this effort into 652 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: producing products and marketing them. So when people say that 653 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: you've done otherwise, it shouldn't get under my skin, but 654 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: it really does. Because one of my key areas to 655 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: work on is being defensive when I feel caught out 656 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: or when I'm being accused of something I don't think 657 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: I did. Ask my husband. That's fun. So, you know, 658 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: and there's a group of founders that I have that 659 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: when one of us are going through something, we'll all 660 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: check in and just say, hey, remember this is not real, 661 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: this is just work and it will pass, and all 662 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: of those wisdom advices that don't really help, but you've 663 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: got to say it so that you know that you're 664 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: not alone. So for me, it's just trying not to 665 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: be absorb them so easily. 666 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: When people are talking about Zoe Foster Blake online, is 667 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 2: that you I heard a podcast recently where someone described 668 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 2: it as a shadow self, Like you're online person. The 669 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 2: person you are online is not actually who you are. 670 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 2: It's a shadow self, and if people are attacking that person, 671 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 2: you can differentiate because you go, that's not actually me, 672 00:34:10,799 --> 00:34:14,479 Speaker 2: that's some avatar image of me that they don't actually know. 673 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 2: Are you good at that? Or because you're so authentic 674 00:34:18,479 --> 00:34:23,559 Speaker 2: online and you've built your identity with authenticity, is it 675 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 2: easy to get it confused? 676 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: It's fie, I think, because you're right, it is an avatar. 677 00:34:27,759 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: And I generally use social just for work now and 678 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:38,559 Speaker 1: my cats because I don't feel inspired to share much 679 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: more of my life than that. I don't think I 680 00:34:40,279 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: need to, and that's why I write fiction so that 681 00:34:42,359 --> 00:34:45,039 Speaker 1: I can experiences that I have I can weave into 682 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,439 Speaker 1: stories and that's the fun of it. I also don't 683 00:34:47,439 --> 00:34:49,999 Speaker 1: think I'm that interesting, so I don't know why I 684 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,039 Speaker 1: would want to share anything more than I do. I 685 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,959 Speaker 1: think we take it personally just because we're human beings, right, 686 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 1: and I don't want to ever misstep because it's not 687 00:35:00,479 --> 00:35:03,679 Speaker 1: worth the hassle. But I also am aware that it's 688 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: not a real world. You know, put you feet in 689 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: the grass and need a banana, Just go and be 690 00:35:08,319 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: back in the real world, play with the kids and 691 00:35:10,439 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: remember what's really happening. And it's funny because something will 692 00:35:12,839 --> 00:35:16,679 Speaker 1: blow up and you'll be so convinced that everyone's thinking 693 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: about or talking about it, and you'll talk to a 694 00:35:18,359 --> 00:35:20,479 Speaker 1: friend and they're like, what, Yeah, what do you trying 695 00:35:20,439 --> 00:35:22,439 Speaker 1: to do that? And I love those moments because I 696 00:35:22,479 --> 00:35:24,479 Speaker 1: was like, yes, notpe out of it, Okay, head out 697 00:35:24,479 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: of your ass and get back into nature or whatever's 698 00:35:27,319 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: going to help. So yeah, they come and go pretty quick. 699 00:35:29,799 --> 00:35:32,959 Speaker 1: I'm pretty good at just going that's not really real life. 700 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: That's not my real life. I'm at home in my 701 00:35:34,359 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: tractor pants with my kids making dinner, and that's a shining, 702 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,639 Speaker 1: glimorous girl that someone's got an idea about and it's 703 00:35:39,959 --> 00:35:41,199 Speaker 1: two different things. 704 00:35:42,759 --> 00:35:45,479 Speaker 2: After the break, Zoey talks about the moments where she 705 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,919 Speaker 2: feels the happiest and why there are certain interviews she 706 00:35:49,040 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 2: doesn't want to do. Are you happiest when you're writing? 707 00:36:01,279 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: I am really happy when I'm writing, but I'm like 708 00:36:04,279 --> 00:36:06,879 Speaker 1: a little squirrel who needs treats all the time. So 709 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: I can do deep writing for like maybe an or two, 710 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,639 Speaker 1: I don't feel the same. Then I need something, maybe 711 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:19,879 Speaker 1: it's a scroll, maybe it's an actual physical scroll. And 712 00:36:19,919 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: then by the end of the day I'm dying for 713 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:22,959 Speaker 1: the gids to get home because I'm like, I need 714 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: to talk to someone and engage. So I love the balance, 715 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: and in fact, my perfect sort of day is a 716 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: bit of family, bit of social as in social interaction, 717 00:36:32,799 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: a bit of riding, and some nature. You know, family 718 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: time is beautiful and built in. I also really love 719 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: riding bikes with my family. I've really found that to 720 00:36:42,399 --> 00:36:44,999 Speaker 1: be a happy place because I can't relax, but that's 721 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,399 Speaker 1: active relaxation for me. I cannot sit still. I don't 722 00:36:48,439 --> 00:36:51,079 Speaker 1: like not being productive. It's a problem I have so 723 00:36:51,439 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 1: being physically moving but in nature and relaxing with my 724 00:36:55,399 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 1: family just tick so many boxes. 725 00:36:57,959 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 2: You strike me as someone who's somewhat introverted. Oh yes, 726 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 2: and yet your life is so public and there are 727 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 2: all sorts of aspects to what you do as a career, 728 00:37:13,399 --> 00:37:20,599 Speaker 2: that public facing requires some level of social energy. Even 729 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,559 Speaker 2: as a beauty editor, went to like fancy events, and 730 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 2: now you'll be at the logies, You'll be at all 731 00:37:26,399 --> 00:37:33,159 Speaker 2: these very highly social situations. How do you find those? 732 00:37:33,439 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: We don't get a mini at all. If you actually 733 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: think about it, we'd go to the logis and maybe, yeah, 734 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: that's it. Yeah, it does really exhaust me. And I 735 00:37:42,279 --> 00:37:43,999 Speaker 1: probably had a lot more energy for it when I 736 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: was in my twenties and thirties being beater and so on. 737 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,879 Speaker 1: But now I really noticed that drain. It's only because 738 00:37:50,919 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: of thank you to social media, like the language around everything, 739 00:37:53,399 --> 00:37:56,359 Speaker 1: for me to understand that I'm a highly social, skilled 740 00:37:56,479 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 1: introvert and I can come in big and do the thing, 741 00:38:00,479 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: and I can be on stage and do a signing 742 00:38:02,479 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: and whatever and film things, and then I'm like shell, 743 00:38:06,439 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: Like a lot of us, we'd have to go home 744 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: and put myself clothed on and not talk to anybody. 745 00:38:10,879 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 1: What I realized is I got older, is just just 746 00:38:12,799 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 1: leaving time in between those things to regroup, because if 747 00:38:15,839 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: I don't look after myself, I'm no good to anybody. 748 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: So even with this book, to her, I was like, 749 00:38:20,279 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: I'm not going back to back events. I'd rather take 750 00:38:22,759 --> 00:38:25,879 Speaker 1: more time and give more, give a better version of 751 00:38:25,879 --> 00:38:28,599 Speaker 1: myself to people than be this tired, which he's not 752 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: stringing two words together. I don't know how like proper 753 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: successful famous people do it, like doing a full press 754 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,439 Speaker 1: tour for like a month, or musical theater people on 755 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 1: stage every night. I just, yeah, I don't have it 756 00:38:40,839 --> 00:38:41,399 Speaker 1: in me at all. 757 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 2: I'm so fascinated about it. I've always said my worst 758 00:38:43,879 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 2: nightmare I think would be being in the Big Brother House. 759 00:38:47,279 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: I think about it all the time, or Survivor or alone. 760 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:51,839 Speaker 1: I have a lot of shows I would never go 761 00:38:51,879 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 1: on because. 762 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,039 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, imagine having to be just on. 763 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 2: And then it's like I'm like, I'd probably come across 764 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,959 Speaker 2: as quite cold, but it's not coldness. 765 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,439 Speaker 1: It's just tiredness, yes, and anxiety about what I'm going 766 00:39:04,479 --> 00:39:06,839 Speaker 1: to say. Did I say yeah, did I say the 767 00:39:06,839 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 1: wrong thing? I say too much? 768 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:08,399 Speaker 2: My god? 769 00:39:08,799 --> 00:39:11,839 Speaker 1: So yeah, I am pretty soually anxious, even in my 770 00:39:11,839 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: own office with my team. I just, yeah, I'm a 771 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: bit of a goose actually at the part of it. 772 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: But I can do it good in short bests, and 773 00:39:19,319 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: I'm like, I just get that short burst out, I'll 774 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: be all right. Do you like interviews, Well, I used 775 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: to be on the other side of them, which is 776 00:39:25,919 --> 00:39:28,599 Speaker 1: probably a bit easier. I don't mind them if it's 777 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: about the work. No, I love I can go so 778 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: deep talking about creativity and marketing and ideas and writing. 779 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: I really love that stuff. I don't get asked it 780 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,919 Speaker 1: very often, though, it's not usually the questions that people 781 00:39:39,959 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: want to. 782 00:39:40,279 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, people are like, let me ask about the gossip 783 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:55,079 Speaker 2: your career. It spans so many creative industries. And do 784 00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 2: you worry in terms of looking at the future where 785 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 2: to put your energy and that it's going to be finite, 786 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 2: Like if you look at the next couple of decades, 787 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 2: does it feel like you you really have to intentionally 788 00:40:11,959 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 2: choose where to put your energy. 789 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,439 Speaker 1: I guess you should, but I don't. I love the 790 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,439 Speaker 1: surprise and delight of life, Like it could be that 791 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: my all, my husband's work could change big time at 792 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: any point. We could move and we could like anything 793 00:40:26,479 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 1: could happen. I also love that writing has no expiration 794 00:40:29,959 --> 00:40:31,439 Speaker 1: date and I can still be doing it when I'm 795 00:40:31,439 --> 00:40:34,399 Speaker 1: seventy five unless AI comes in and does a better 796 00:40:34,479 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 1: job of it. Nervous about that. So I feel like 797 00:40:37,359 --> 00:40:43,119 Speaker 1: I'm able to always have that work. Thankfully, I don't 798 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: need to be young or glamorous for it. I can 799 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,359 Speaker 1: just always write. And same with running a business and 800 00:40:48,399 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: doing it well as long as I have the ideas. 801 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: And I do have so many ideas. It's not the 802 00:40:52,799 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: lack of ideas, it's the follow through and the execution 803 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,799 Speaker 1: and which ones are actually worth backing is probably the 804 00:40:57,799 --> 00:41:00,519 Speaker 1: big question for us. So now I get excited about 805 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,279 Speaker 1: what's next. You never know what could happen. I was 806 00:41:02,319 --> 00:41:05,479 Speaker 1: just like, oh, I've be doing my fifties sixties and 807 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,559 Speaker 1: like who knows, who cares? Like just go for it, 808 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: Like could be writing for TV or I have no idea. 809 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: I love that. 810 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 2: When you think about your life, what do you think 811 00:41:19,919 --> 00:41:23,639 Speaker 2: is the thing that when you're an old woman, I'm 812 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,519 Speaker 2: going to say like one hundred and twenty because that's 813 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,999 Speaker 2: how old he's going to live too. What is it 814 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,879 Speaker 2: when you look back on your life that will have 815 00:41:32,279 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 2: made you happy, Like when you really zoom out, what 816 00:41:36,359 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 2: is it that is the happiness? 817 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,119 Speaker 1: I think it's human connection. I put that to being 818 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: a good partner, being the kind of parent who doesn't 819 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 1: fuck up their kids too much. No, I'm going to 820 00:41:49,439 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: do it without knowing what I'm doing, but that legacy 821 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: of parenting well, which is a full time job now, 822 00:41:56,759 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: as we all know. My Mum's always like, God, your generation, 823 00:41:59,759 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 1: you really deep dive on this stuff too, And I'm like, yeah, 824 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:07,919 Speaker 1: well and why. And the connections that I have with 825 00:42:08,359 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: friends and people in the world are really think that 826 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: human connection and community also that purpose. Someone asked me 827 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 1: that what do you think your purpose is? And it 828 00:42:15,839 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 1: is a great question, and I'm not still confident in 829 00:42:18,319 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: the answer, but I think it might be teaching, and 830 00:42:20,399 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 1: not teaching in terms of teaching, but teaching people how 831 00:42:26,359 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: to look after the skin, teaching people how to do 832 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: a business, teaching people how to all the romans and 833 00:42:31,799 --> 00:42:35,360 Speaker 1: writing relationships stuff I did, or even with the picture books, 834 00:42:35,399 --> 00:42:38,439 Speaker 1: teaching kids how to write funny stories. I don't know, 835 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,320 Speaker 1: but vaguely I feel like that's sort of the thread 836 00:42:41,319 --> 00:42:44,639 Speaker 1: through all of them is just that and not because 837 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 1: I'm in the position of expertise, but just because I 838 00:42:47,279 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: also love the example of just being a rap from 839 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: the bush who's come in and with no clue and 840 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,479 Speaker 1: accidentally done a good job of business. I think that's 841 00:42:55,919 --> 00:42:58,639 Speaker 1: something to be proud of, because I know a lot 842 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,639 Speaker 1: of people put a lot more time and energy into 843 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,999 Speaker 1: learning how to business and I somehow snuck through and 844 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: did it too. 845 00:43:06,319 --> 00:43:10,039 Speaker 2: Really, that's really interesting that idea of teaching, and I 846 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,159 Speaker 2: do do you think that that is a thread through 847 00:43:12,839 --> 00:43:16,159 Speaker 2: your entire career because so many people I know who 848 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 2: love you. People have come in at different moments and like, 849 00:43:19,759 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 2: I've got a friend who went through a breakup and 850 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,359 Speaker 2: you were her absolute All she talked about was how 851 00:43:26,399 --> 00:43:29,439 Speaker 2: you were her guru. And when I was pregnant, I 852 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 2: had all with pelvic pais, Oh my god, I'm so sorry, 853 00:43:33,399 --> 00:43:36,439 Speaker 2: and I went so deep. I'm like, like, what do 854 00:43:36,479 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 2: you do? Okay? Like, there are all these different avenues 855 00:43:39,919 --> 00:43:41,839 Speaker 2: where people connect to you, and I think it's because 856 00:43:41,879 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 2: you're very generous with what you share and how you 857 00:43:46,319 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 2: share it, and recommendations and being honest about the things 858 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 2: that maybe people aren't always honest about. It's like, especially 859 00:43:56,479 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 2: when it comes to something like business at the moment 860 00:43:58,279 --> 00:44:02,239 Speaker 2: like that, so many people are quite they're gay cape 861 00:44:03,439 --> 00:44:04,959 Speaker 2: gaykeepe the business information. 862 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,479 Speaker 1: It's weird, isn't that. There's a very specific character in 863 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,759 Speaker 1: the book who is really generous, and she's got American 864 00:44:10,839 --> 00:44:14,679 Speaker 1: sensibility to business, which is very different to Australian, which is, oh, 865 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: I know a guy, I'll hook you up. I'll know 866 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,279 Speaker 1: it is and often, unfortunately in Australia, particularly when I 867 00:44:19,279 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: was starting out, no one would share their chemist or 868 00:44:22,799 --> 00:44:26,479 Speaker 1: their factories or anything they're packaging people. Now, of course 869 00:44:26,479 --> 00:44:28,479 Speaker 1: you've got full service companies that will do that all 870 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,799 Speaker 1: for you. It's changed so much. But I don't want 871 00:44:31,799 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: to be that guy. I want to be the guy 872 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: that helps everybody. There is enough pie for everybody, and 873 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 1: I think a greedy gatekeeping mindset it will only come 874 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,919 Speaker 1: back to you. Generosity doesn't cost anything. You're helping so 875 00:44:43,959 --> 00:44:45,879 Speaker 1: many people. I get tear when people come up to 876 00:44:45,919 --> 00:44:47,559 Speaker 1: me and say, oh, I read Breakup Boss and then 877 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 1: I gave it to seven of my friends. It really 878 00:44:49,359 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: really helped, or thank you your face helped my explorer, 879 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,839 Speaker 1: whatever it may be. Because I'm like I didn't intend 880 00:44:54,839 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 1: for that to be the outcome, but so that it did. 881 00:44:57,359 --> 00:44:59,879 Speaker 1: Or even like I took your restaurant recommendation with Queenstown, 882 00:44:59,959 --> 00:45:02,399 Speaker 1: I'm like, great, I saved you some time and you 883 00:45:02,439 --> 00:45:04,759 Speaker 1: had a good meal off that. I love that because 884 00:45:04,759 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: I wish for that. I just want the edit of life. Please? 885 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:09,999 Speaker 1: Can I have the edit? What supplement do I take? 886 00:45:10,319 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 1: What's the meditation app that I should be using? What's 887 00:45:12,279 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 1: the book to read? Like clear the clutter and just 888 00:45:14,759 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: let me get to it. 889 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 2: And it's also a bit of a fast track to 890 00:45:19,439 --> 00:45:22,519 Speaker 2: human connection. I think it is that you're able to 891 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,959 Speaker 2: like I went to read a book the other day 892 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, yes, it's got recommended to me. 893 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 2: And I'm like, I saw it old Zoomy's Instagram. 894 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 1: It's got recommended. What was it? Do you love it? 895 00:45:33,439 --> 00:45:37,839 Speaker 2: It's the Taffy Book. Yeah. I was like, oh, I 896 00:45:37,879 --> 00:45:39,839 Speaker 2: loved her first book. I must read it. Yes, and 897 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 2: she's brill But it is that idea of having somebody 898 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 2: you can trust and you know their recommendations have served 899 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,800 Speaker 2: you well in the past. You feel connected to them again. 900 00:45:48,839 --> 00:45:50,959 Speaker 1: It's the hoobers because I'm like, who's to say my 901 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,559 Speaker 1: taste is your taste. But it's not like I chose 902 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 1: that book out of like the usually prize when I'm like, 903 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,399 Speaker 1: if you haven't read this, you do, it's amazing. But yeah, 904 00:46:00,439 --> 00:46:03,479 Speaker 1: I like the time saying aspect and it's really just 905 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,079 Speaker 1: putting out what I want to get back, which is 906 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,439 Speaker 1: now you recommend me something. You won't help each other out. 907 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 2: What currently keeps you from happiness? 908 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:16,879 Speaker 1: Keeps me from happiness? I think it's usually sleep. I 909 00:46:16,919 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: think sleep. It's very well known for a lot of 910 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:23,799 Speaker 1: people that sleep is my number one mental health kryptonite. 911 00:46:24,319 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: So I prioritize it it all costs, and if I've slept, 912 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,639 Speaker 1: I can do anything. I haven't slept a monster, And 913 00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,719 Speaker 1: I've become very good at power napping to get back 914 00:46:35,759 --> 00:46:38,279 Speaker 1: on track, like to start the day again, to take 915 00:46:38,279 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: the nap to start fresh, which I think there's napping's 916 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,639 Speaker 1: got a bad stigma, but a lot of writers nap. 917 00:46:43,799 --> 00:46:46,639 Speaker 1: It's better than their fourth coffee, or it's a twenty 918 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,999 Speaker 1: minute meditation, or you're going to in d something. So 919 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,719 Speaker 1: sleep is what keeps me from happiness. And probably fear 920 00:46:53,799 --> 00:46:56,200 Speaker 1: a little bit just what we're going back to before 921 00:46:56,279 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 1: about like putting things out into the world and hoping 922 00:46:59,439 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 1: that it hits and in the amount of times we 923 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:03,839 Speaker 1: put up a new product or a launch or something, 924 00:47:03,919 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 1: and I'm waiting for the thing we did wrong. What's 925 00:47:06,319 --> 00:47:09,399 Speaker 1: going to blindside me here? Even with the book, I'm like, oh, 926 00:47:10,399 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: you know, have I offended someone? Or that world we 927 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,879 Speaker 1: live in now where I'm on edge of that vigilance 928 00:47:15,919 --> 00:47:19,199 Speaker 1: of like what can they get me for here, which 929 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,239 Speaker 1: is very telling, I think. So I'm always aware that 930 00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 1: that's going to happen without trying to preempt or manifest it. 931 00:47:26,839 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 1: It's a fine line. Yeah, I think I'm happy to 932 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:31,479 Speaker 1: take risks, but I'm also aware that it's not for everyone, 933 00:47:31,479 --> 00:47:33,759 Speaker 1: and that's okay. I don't want to be for everyone. No, 934 00:47:33,919 --> 00:47:35,999 Speaker 1: I think there's that saying that if you try and 935 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,639 Speaker 1: be for everyone, you are by definition average. So definitely, yeah, 936 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,159 Speaker 1: definitely just find your people and write for them. 937 00:47:44,399 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 2: In terms of sleep, because I think maybe a lot 938 00:47:48,279 --> 00:47:50,879 Speaker 2: of people realize the importance of sleep when they have 939 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,839 Speaker 2: a child for the first time and you're like, oh, yeah, 940 00:47:53,839 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 2: I thought i'd been strived before. No lack of sleep, 941 00:47:57,959 --> 00:48:00,040 Speaker 2: How does that manifest in terms of mental health? 942 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 1: I'm a bitch. I'm snappy with my children, my anxiety ramps. 943 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:10,039 Speaker 1: I can't write. My dopamine hunting has increased one hundredfold 944 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,319 Speaker 1: by food, by scrolling, by just silly tasks that don't 945 00:48:14,319 --> 00:48:18,199 Speaker 1: actually need doing. I just feel wayward. So I don't 946 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,999 Speaker 1: have that focus and I really need that. And I think, 947 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: you know, I'm forty four, So perimonopause is a real thing. 948 00:48:23,919 --> 00:48:28,359 Speaker 1: The anxiety and the sleeplessness big thing. So I've I've 949 00:48:28,359 --> 00:48:31,200 Speaker 1: had my diagnostics and I've got something to help me 950 00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:37,160 Speaker 1: sleep now and it's medicinal CBD and fabulous high the 951 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:41,519 Speaker 1: right and yeah, so I just needed to sort that out. 952 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,319 Speaker 1: Like I said before, anything else would work because I 953 00:48:45,359 --> 00:48:47,559 Speaker 1: have this limit of three nights bad sleep, and yeah, 954 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 1: I will book a fucking hotel. Yeah, I need to sleep. 955 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,959 Speaker 1: Something's got to give. So yeah, I've never got to 956 00:48:53,959 --> 00:48:55,400 Speaker 1: that stage, but that's how I feel. 957 00:48:55,879 --> 00:48:58,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, because one night you can one night adrenaline. Yeah, 958 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,039 Speaker 2: two nights you feel terrible. Three nights I'm a rash. 959 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,719 Speaker 2: I've lost all rationality. And then I actually start convincing 960 00:49:04,759 --> 00:49:06,839 Speaker 2: myself I don't need sleep. And that's when you know 961 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 2: you've gone nuts, is you're like sleep, who needs sleep? 962 00:49:09,799 --> 00:49:14,080 Speaker 2: And then you're like, I need that's very hard with 963 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:15,439 Speaker 2: your child, It's very hard. 964 00:49:15,439 --> 00:49:18,239 Speaker 1: And I had my anxiety only started when I had children. 965 00:49:18,479 --> 00:49:20,639 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have characterized myself as an anxious person prior 966 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,079 Speaker 1: to that, but a baby who I had to keep 967 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,359 Speaker 1: alive was a big deal and sleep was not great. 968 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,399 Speaker 1: No bad cycle contributes. 969 00:49:28,879 --> 00:49:35,399 Speaker 2: To it when you are tired, getting defensive, not being 970 00:49:35,399 --> 00:49:39,279 Speaker 2: your best self. Are there people around you? Because I 971 00:49:39,319 --> 00:49:43,959 Speaker 2: think sometimes in terms of our happiness, sometimes we're not 972 00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 2: even the best person to know how to make ourselves happy. 973 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,399 Speaker 2: Sometimes the people around us are way better at seeing 974 00:49:50,439 --> 00:49:53,680 Speaker 2: things objectively. Are there people who call you out and 975 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 2: pull you into line? Yeah? 976 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,359 Speaker 1: Well, my husband, he's a very lovely man, and it's 977 00:49:58,399 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 1: not his first instinct. He'll usually cop a few blows 978 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,640 Speaker 1: before it'll be like, what's wrong with you? But I 979 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,319 Speaker 1: would have already prefaced it. I'm like, I'm tired, I 980 00:50:06,319 --> 00:50:08,600 Speaker 1: didn't say the worst sleep last night? Why did the 981 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,319 Speaker 1: garbage man came at five in the morning? La la la, 982 00:50:11,359 --> 00:50:14,679 Speaker 1: So I've already let everybody know. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, 983 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,319 Speaker 1: he calls me and of course and my kids were 984 00:50:17,399 --> 00:50:21,279 Speaker 1: just looking heartbreaking, like what are you being mean, are 985 00:50:21,319 --> 00:50:26,080 Speaker 1: you being too snappy? That's horrible. So yeah, I know 986 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,439 Speaker 1: when i'm it's a wake up in the morning feeling. Yeah, 987 00:50:28,479 --> 00:50:30,559 Speaker 1: I already know it's there. I tell myself, Oh, you're 988 00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,840 Speaker 1: being a bitch, like saw your shit, and it's twenty minutes. 989 00:50:33,879 --> 00:50:36,440 Speaker 1: I just need twenty minutes to just go and meditate 990 00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,879 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, I'm such a better person, and I'm 991 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,879 Speaker 1: really okay with asking for that now, Like even in 992 00:50:40,919 --> 00:50:44,719 Speaker 1: big family function moments where by law you're not allowed 993 00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,719 Speaker 1: to just excuse yourself to do anything. But I'm like, ah, 994 00:50:47,799 --> 00:50:50,279 Speaker 1: I don't like any of you for a minute. I'm 995 00:50:50,359 --> 00:50:52,319 Speaker 1: going to go just become a nicer person. Then we're 996 00:50:52,319 --> 00:50:53,079 Speaker 1: gonna have a great day. 997 00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:55,719 Speaker 2: I think maybe I need to do that. I need 998 00:50:55,759 --> 00:50:57,919 Speaker 2: to do that in a lot of social situations because 999 00:50:57,919 --> 00:51:00,079 Speaker 2: otherwise I push through and I'm like it's written all 1000 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,399 Speaker 2: over my face. Yes, everybody knows how I'm feeling. Yes, 1001 00:51:03,479 --> 00:51:06,960 Speaker 2: I think I'm hiding it. Yeah, no, no, no, no, Right now, 1002 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:09,839 Speaker 2: you've got a new novel out. Things will calm down soon. 1003 00:51:10,279 --> 00:51:15,719 Speaker 2: You've got a wildly successful business, are you happy. 1004 00:51:15,959 --> 00:51:19,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. To the point where when this podcast was pitched, 1005 00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:21,440 Speaker 1: I was like, no, I can't do that. I am happy, 1006 00:51:22,479 --> 00:51:25,999 Speaker 1: won't be very interested, being very disingenious and pretend like 1007 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,759 Speaker 1: I'm not the most lucky woman on it. Now I 1008 00:51:28,759 --> 00:51:33,120 Speaker 1: feel not only happy, but thriving. I feel inspired. I 1009 00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:37,919 Speaker 1: feel very fortunate. I know we're not allowed to say lucky, 1010 00:51:37,919 --> 00:51:40,959 Speaker 1: but I do feel lucky. I feel grateful. I think 1011 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:48,119 Speaker 1: gratitude is my massive antidote to sadness or anger, irritability. 1012 00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,560 Speaker 1: Is just to switch it to a mindset of gratitude, 1013 00:51:51,759 --> 00:51:54,279 Speaker 1: which is does sound like a privileged thing to say, 1014 00:51:54,279 --> 00:51:58,039 Speaker 1: but anyone, no matter your situation, can turn to gratitude. 1015 00:51:58,759 --> 00:52:01,879 Speaker 1: Just for the health of my children, my family, This 1016 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,239 Speaker 1: incredibly fortunate life I'm living. So I'm very happy and 1017 00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,879 Speaker 1: I feel excited and compelled. And that is because I 1018 00:52:07,919 --> 00:52:11,440 Speaker 1: took care of myself this year. When I wrote this book, 1019 00:52:11,479 --> 00:52:13,519 Speaker 1: Things will come Down Soon was something I would throughout 1020 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,559 Speaker 1: all the time and we would laugh ha ha ha, 1021 00:52:15,759 --> 00:52:17,759 Speaker 1: No it won't. Hamis should be like that is your life, 1022 00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,120 Speaker 1: you idiot, you know, come on. But then this June, 1023 00:52:21,279 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: I actually for the first time had a proper break 1024 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,279 Speaker 1: from work because the book was in at the printers 1025 00:52:26,279 --> 00:52:29,839 Speaker 1: and you can't do anymore except start publicity and go 1026 00:52:29,959 --> 00:52:31,999 Speaker 1: to was in a bit of a production phase that 1027 00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,640 Speaker 1: there was a lull and I was able to just 1028 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,999 Speaker 1: take a couple of weeks to not be the sort 1029 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,480 Speaker 1: of level of stress Kit is in Living Dead Yay, 1030 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:42,719 Speaker 1: which was very normal for me for about three years 1031 00:52:42,759 --> 00:52:44,759 Speaker 1: because I had two deals and a novel and day 1032 00:52:44,799 --> 00:52:48,120 Speaker 1: to day work and young family and I felt like 1033 00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,279 Speaker 1: a different person because I was very burnt out at 1034 00:52:50,319 --> 00:52:53,120 Speaker 1: the start of the year, burnt out at Jason and 1035 00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:54,680 Speaker 1: I went to a health camp, which I hadn't done 1036 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:59,039 Speaker 1: since for eight years, and I was a different person 1037 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,679 Speaker 1: when I came back. And I remember at the start 1038 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,799 Speaker 1: of this year, my mum, she always does my neurology, 1039 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,719 Speaker 1: She's like, you're in a seven year. I'm fuck it, 1040 00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,200 Speaker 1: I need to have been four year four years of work. 1041 00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,039 Speaker 1: Here she goes, you've done your four years, You're in 1042 00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,039 Speaker 1: a seven year And I'm like, but that's like it's 1043 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,640 Speaker 1: inner and it's meditative and you learn your skills and 1044 00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,839 Speaker 1: you'll take care of yourself and you go in and 1045 00:53:17,839 --> 00:53:19,359 Speaker 1: she said, but can't you see how important that is 1046 00:53:19,399 --> 00:53:20,640 Speaker 1: in this year? And I'm like, no, no, this is 1047 00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:22,839 Speaker 1: my big year, this is our go to his tenth birthday. 1048 00:53:22,919 --> 00:53:25,559 Speaker 1: My book's out, I've got two children's books out. I 1049 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,839 Speaker 1: need to be the peacock this year. And she said, 1050 00:53:27,839 --> 00:53:29,279 Speaker 1: but you can't do any of that if you haven't 1051 00:53:29,279 --> 00:53:31,680 Speaker 1: looked after yourself. And so that's why I have boundaries 1052 00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,279 Speaker 1: around eventing or filming or anything that takes a lot 1053 00:53:35,279 --> 00:53:37,879 Speaker 1: of energy from me. And all family time weekend is 1054 00:53:37,879 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: family time, and all of those boundaries are in place 1055 00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:42,759 Speaker 1: to protect me so that I can do better work 1056 00:53:42,799 --> 00:53:46,400 Speaker 1: and have a better mindset and be happier and sleep. 1057 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:49,640 Speaker 1: You know, sleep our aoh whole family. I made them 1058 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,359 Speaker 1: obsessed about sleep. The kids don't care. Aisha and I 1059 00:53:52,399 --> 00:53:55,799 Speaker 1: are very devout sleep. Sleep is our religion. 1060 00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:00,679 Speaker 2: Do you feel like now that the book is out 1061 00:54:01,399 --> 00:54:05,520 Speaker 2: and the business, I mean, as somebody who doesn't understand 1062 00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:07,960 Speaker 2: business at all, the business isn't a really good place. 1063 00:54:08,279 --> 00:54:09,279 Speaker 2: Have things calm down? 1064 00:54:09,439 --> 00:54:11,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I mean. It's a weird time to 1065 00:54:11,279 --> 00:54:13,599 Speaker 1: be talking about the book because things did calm down 1066 00:54:14,439 --> 00:54:19,239 Speaker 1: for June and now I'm busy again. But I think 1067 00:54:19,959 --> 00:54:22,719 Speaker 1: I needed to know that it could calm down, but 1068 00:54:22,799 --> 00:54:25,600 Speaker 1: the soon was coming. Yeah, I just I needed to 1069 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,559 Speaker 1: know it was a fact, not just this myth of 1070 00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,879 Speaker 1: this carrot dangling of like one day, so I know 1071 00:54:30,959 --> 00:54:33,519 Speaker 1: it can be calm and I know this. It's on me. 1072 00:54:33,879 --> 00:54:37,560 Speaker 1: It's how much I undertake. But I love new projects, 1073 00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:39,400 Speaker 1: you know. I love studying a new book. I'm already 1074 00:54:39,399 --> 00:54:41,640 Speaker 1: excited to write a new book. I like to be busy. 1075 00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:43,399 Speaker 1: I like to be working. I like to do good 1076 00:54:43,439 --> 00:54:45,520 Speaker 1: work to the point where even if they weren't published 1077 00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:47,159 Speaker 1: and weren't read, and I would still want to do it. 1078 00:54:47,799 --> 00:54:52,200 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's me not starting a new project too quickly, 1079 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:53,799 Speaker 1: and I've got to hold myself back. I'm like, get 1080 00:54:53,799 --> 00:54:57,279 Speaker 1: this baby out first. Please just focus on this book, 1081 00:54:57,279 --> 00:55:00,919 Speaker 1: don't stud new one yet. So I'm back. Feels good. 1082 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:03,279 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time today. I really 1083 00:55:03,319 --> 00:55:08,520 Speaker 2: appreciate it. That's all we've got time for. On today's 1084 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,920 Speaker 2: episode of But Are You Happy? Zoe Foster Blake's latest 1085 00:55:11,959 --> 00:55:14,719 Speaker 2: novel about the chaos of business and being a founder 1086 00:55:14,759 --> 00:55:17,800 Speaker 2: and juggling a family between it all, is called Things 1087 00:55:17,799 --> 00:55:20,120 Speaker 2: Will Calm Down Soon, and it's out on the first 1088 00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,160 Speaker 2: of October. It's brilliant and I can promise you you 1089 00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,079 Speaker 2: will not be able to put it down. But it's 1090 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,319 Speaker 2: also incredibly insightful and challenges a lot of ideas we 1091 00:55:28,399 --> 00:55:32,119 Speaker 2: hold about women and money and success and power. Will 1092 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:36,679 Speaker 2: pop a link into the show notes. This conversation went 1093 00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,439 Speaker 2: beyond the veneer of the glamorous, aspirational life of Zoe 1094 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,559 Speaker 2: Foster Blake to the charismatic, clever, and generous person who 1095 00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,359 Speaker 2: sat opposite me in the studio. I want to thank 1096 00:55:47,399 --> 00:55:50,759 Speaker 2: her for everything she shared in our conversation. And if 1097 00:55:50,799 --> 00:55:53,480 Speaker 2: there's anyone you know who you think might get something 1098 00:55:53,479 --> 00:55:55,999 Speaker 2: out of this episode, please share it with them. If 1099 00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,119 Speaker 2: you want to recommend anyone for the show, you can 1100 00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,840 Speaker 2: message me on Instagram, and if you like the show, 1101 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:05,920 Speaker 2: leave us a review. We always love your feedback. Next week, 1102 00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,120 Speaker 2: I speak to Amy Shark about the tension of getting 1103 00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:13,920 Speaker 2: everything you ever wanted. The executive producer, but are you Happy, 1104 00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 2: is Niama Brown and the producer is Charlie Blackman. Audio 1105 00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:20,959 Speaker 2: editing by Scott Stronning. I'm your host, Le Stevens, and 1106 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:21,839 Speaker 2: we'll see you next week.