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Speaker 2: When too much out Loud is never enough. On today's show,
Speaker 2: decoding the binfire fever dream that is the American presidential
Speaker 2: race after Friday's debate and why it might all be
Speaker 2: a woman's fault of course, also the bride rioting over
Speaker 2: her wedding photos and Australian politicians Wayward Sons have a
Speaker 2: group chap and it's in a major newspaper. There you
Speaker 2: but first me a freedman in case you missed it.
Speaker 1: It's a very big time for France at the moment,
Speaker 1: particularly Paris. They've got the Olympics coming up in a
Speaker 1: few weeks. They're having an election that is not looking
Speaker 1: good for Emmanuel Macron. But the story that we're most
Speaker 1: interested in here and out Loud is the poop protest.
Speaker 1: Here's what's happened. We're four weeks out from the Paris
Speaker 1: Olympics and so excited about Parisians are planning to celebrate
Speaker 1: or protest by pooping in the Seine. The Sin is
Speaker 1: the big river that goes through the center of Paris,
Speaker 1: and it's been illegal to swim there since nineteen twenty
Speaker 1: three due to pollution. It's not a very clean river.
Speaker 3: It's very brown.
Speaker 1: No, it's very brown. But while bidding for the Olympics,
Speaker 1: the French government said they'd clean it up. I think
Speaker 1: the triathlon and para triathlons are going to involve swimming
Speaker 1: in the Seine, right, So the Prime Minister, Emmanuel mccau
Speaker 1: he confirmed that it would cost around two point twenty
Speaker 1: five billion dollars Australian to clean the river. Parisians weren't
Speaker 1: happy about that. They said that's too expensive, and they
Speaker 1: also say we're not happy about the strain that the
Speaker 1: Games is going to put on our public transport system.
Speaker 1: People always say that they're all leaving, all organized after
Speaker 1: it such trolls. After it was cleaned for two billion dollars,
Speaker 1: they all organized to protest that by poohing in it.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm mad about that.
Speaker 1: And so now they think because they're still e coal
Speaker 1: I detected at unacceptable levels. So what my court said
Speaker 1: he was going to do is go for a swim
Speaker 1: in the scent to prove how clean it was. That
Speaker 1: was called off on the weekend because of the pooh,
Speaker 1: And now they're thinking that maybe the triathlon will not
Speaker 1: have a swimming part.
Speaker 3: This is why we can't things. It would benefit all
Speaker 3: Parisians if it was cleaned up. That is a lot
Speaker 3: of money, but it's an investment. It's been one hundred
Speaker 3: years since you could swim in it. Yeah, it was
Speaker 3: going to cost a lot of money. But the idea
Speaker 3: of swimming near the Eiffel Tower, like, it gets very
Speaker 3: hot in Paris and there is nowhere to swim, so
Speaker 3: that could be a lovely thing for everyone. So what's
Speaker 3: the thinking behind my tax paid dollars have already gone
Speaker 3: towards cleaning this very dirty river that is still dirty.
Speaker 3: I'm going to go and shit in it. This is
Speaker 3: everything wrong with humanity.
Speaker 2: People always get like this before an Olympics. I am
Speaker 2: old enough to remember, as you would be meya. Just
Speaker 2: before the Sydney.
Speaker 1: Olympics, no one was pooing in Sydney High No, but.
Speaker 2: Sydney people were pissed off. Right after the Olympics, they
Speaker 2: loved it. In the lead up to the Olympics in Sydney,
Speaker 2: there was like, it's costing us too much money. There's
Speaker 2: all this money going into this that should be going
Speaker 2: into this, this, and this Sydney side is saying I'm leaving.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna rent my house so I don't want to
Speaker 2: be here. And then it happened and everyone went, oh
Speaker 2: my god, that was amazing. Everybody loved it.
Speaker 3: Best Olympics ever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like in the lead up to the Olympics,
Speaker 2: everyone hates it. And I heard that Paris have been
Speaker 2: trying to do it differently and like use existing infrastructure
Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff, because that's the only
Speaker 2: way to do it.
Speaker 1: This sin would be considered infrastructure.
Speaker 2: So you know, I reckon that in a few weeks time,
Speaker 2: on the other side of the Olympics, all the Parisians
Speaker 2: who pooped in the sein will be feeling a bit
Speaker 2: dirty about it, a shamed as I should.
Speaker 4: The forty sixth President of the United States, Joe Biden
Speaker 4: for Caloria, and please welcome the forty fifth President of
Speaker 4: the United States, Donald Trump.
Speaker 5: And if I'm elected I'm going to restore Roe v.
Speaker 1: Wade.
Speaker 6: He's willing to, as we say, rip the baby out
Speaker 6: of the womb in the ninth month and kill the baby.
Speaker 6: Nobody wants that to happen. Democrat or Republican, nobody wants.
Speaker 1: It to happen.
Speaker 6: And I'm in very good health. I just won two
Speaker 6: club championships, not even senior, two regular club championships. To
Speaker 6: do that, you have to be quite smart, and you
Speaker 6: have to be able to hit the ball a long way.
Speaker 6: And I do it. He doesn't do it. He can't
Speaker 6: hit a ball fifty yards. He challenged me to a
Speaker 6: golf match. He can't hit a ball fifty yards.
Speaker 5: We're able to make every single solitary person eligible for
Speaker 5: what I've been able to do with the with the COVID,
Speaker 5: I excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to
Speaker 5: do with Look if we finally beat Medicare, and I'm
Speaker 5: going to continue to move until we get the total
Speaker 5: ban on the total initiative relative to what we're going
Speaker 5: to do with more border patrol and more asylum off.
Speaker 6: President Trump, I really don't know what he said at
Speaker 6: the end of this. I don't think he knows what
Speaker 6: he said either.
Speaker 4: Most Americans, most overwhelming majority, do not want to see
Speaker 4: these two running against each other, and America's political system
Speaker 4: could not come up with a better choice than a
Speaker 4: rerun of what happened four years ago.
Speaker 3: On Friday, Australian time, US President Joe Biden and former
Speaker 3: US President Donald Trump engaged in their first political debate
Speaker 3: of the twenty twenty four election campaign, with four months
Speaker 3: to go before Americans head to the polls. I'm spiraling.
Speaker 1: Very much.
Speaker 3: The presidential debate is meant to showcase policy ideas and
Speaker 3: each candidate's vision for their presidency. I don't know how
Speaker 3: to describe what happened last week. Eighty one year old
Speaker 3: Biden was barely coherent. He lost his train of thought.
Speaker 3: His voice was quiet and hoarse, and he looked completely
Speaker 3: out of his depth. He looked terrified, and he looked
Speaker 3: quite pale. He didn't look well and.
Speaker 1: In the split screen because they had quite strict conditions,
Speaker 1: the Democrats established all the conditions for this debate, including
Speaker 1: that the other person's microphone would be switched off when
Speaker 1: each person was speaking, right, because Trump just interrupts and
Speaker 1: takes over and won't shut up. So they did that
Speaker 1: there was also no audience because two elections go. When
Speaker 1: he was debating Hillary Clinton, he would do all sorts
Speaker 1: of shenanigans, like he brought into the audience to sit
Speaker 1: in the front row the women who had accused Bill
Speaker 1: Clinton of sexually assaulting them. The Democrats also decided they
Speaker 1: wanted it to be much earlier. There's never been a
Speaker 1: presidential debate this early, usually within the November election. The
Speaker 1: US elections always at the same time. The debates are
Speaker 1: usually in September.
Speaker 3: I thought you met earlier in the day because Joe Biden, Yeah, hired.
Speaker 1: Also that but in the split screen, so they showed
Speaker 1: the face of the person who wasn't talking, and in
Speaker 1: every split screen when he wasn't speaking, Biden had his
Speaker 1: mouth sort of a little bit open, and he was
Speaker 1: sort of squinting and just looking really confused.
Speaker 3: She looked like shocked or yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. He'd completely disoriented.
Speaker 3: He didn't have energy. He looked completely out of his depth,
Speaker 3: so much so that a White House official told outlets
Speaker 3: that Biden had a cold, seemingly as a way of
Speaker 3: explaining his performance. Then there was seventy eight year old Trump,
Speaker 3: a convicted felon on thirty four counts only weeks ago
Speaker 3: found guilty of a scheme to illegally influence the twenty
Speaker 3: sixteen election through a hush money payment to a porn
Speaker 3: actor who says the two had sex. Trump was more
Speaker 3: restrained than we've seen him in the past, but he
Speaker 3: predictably routinely lied, including stating that Biden is, as you heard,
Speaker 3: willing to rip the baby out of the womb in
Speaker 3: the nine month and kill the baby. As you heard
Speaker 3: there too. There are parts of this debate that sounded
Speaker 3: more like a bad reality TV show or a skit
Speaker 3: on Saturday Night Live than a real high stakes political exercise.
Speaker 3: There's heaps to unpack. The general consensus, In fact, I
Speaker 3: have heard no other take other than this is that
Speaker 3: Biden needs to step aside. Part of being the president
Speaker 3: is instilling confidence in the nation that you are fit
Speaker 3: and competent as a leader. And we know the US
Speaker 3: economy is struggling horrific international conflicts. No one would trust
Speaker 3: Biden with that job at the moment. Maya, how do
Speaker 3: you think this left people feeling? What was the general mood?
Speaker 3: I don't think that people are shocked, but this was
Speaker 3: worst case scenario.
Speaker 2: People are shocked.
Speaker 1: People were shocked. So Biden had one job, and that
Speaker 1: is to disprove what people have been saying for several
Speaker 1: years now that he's too old to run and that
Speaker 1: he's not up to it. That was his only job.
Speaker 1: So all the terms of the debate, which was set
Speaker 1: by the Democrats, were designed to help him. Essentially, all
Speaker 1: Trump had to do is to really kind of not
Speaker 1: throw his own feces at the wall, and true, that's
Speaker 1: all he had to do.
Speaker 3: Will appear a little bit restrained. That's his achilles heel,
Speaker 3: and then you've got Biden's achilles heel. And they both
Speaker 3: had two different jobs.
Speaker 1: So the bar for both candidates, this is what's so
Speaker 1: deeply depressing, was so low, Like it was so low,
Speaker 1: and neither of them cleared it. But the fact that
Speaker 1: Biden stumbled so badly and it was so much worse
Speaker 1: than anyone could have possibly ever imagined. As you say, Jesse,
Speaker 1: there was no one in the Democratic Party really, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, Obama and a few people have come out
Speaker 1: and sort of tried to say he had a bad night,
Speaker 1: he had a bad debate. What it takes to win
Speaker 1: an election is a very different set of skills to
Speaker 1: what it takes to actually be the president. A lot
Speaker 1: of people say that that's why Hillary Clinton lost because
Speaker 1: she's terrible at campaigning, but she would have been an
Speaker 1: amazing president. Trump is very good at campaigning, and if
Speaker 1: you say very good, means by getting a lot of
Speaker 1: attention in aging people. Because remember, the whole thing about
Speaker 1: the American political system is because voting isn't compulsory, you
Speaker 1: have to make people so interested and so passionately for
Speaker 1: you that they will go and vote and take time
Speaker 1: out of their day, their job, their family, whatever it is,
Speaker 1: and standing a long line and vote. They've got to
Speaker 1: vote for something or really against something.
Speaker 2: And everyone who's vaguely progressive or left leaning was very
Speaker 2: much ready to vote against Trump, and let's face it,
Speaker 2: they probably still will be. But all of those people
Speaker 2: were swallowing what had been being fed to them for
Speaker 2: a long time, which is like, it's nonsense, all these
Speaker 2: fears about Joe, Like you know, because this dialogue has
Speaker 2: been going on for a long time, and you say me,
Speaker 2: here but a few years. But Biden's camp and Biden's
Speaker 2: spin doctors and Biden's surrogates and everyone who is hoping
Speaker 2: that Donald Trump loses the election, has been saying no, no,
Speaker 2: he's great, it's okay, you know, like he's still sharp.
Speaker 2: I just find it hard to watch, Like I couldn't
Speaker 2: even watch clips because I actually feel just desperately sorry
Speaker 2: for him, even though I know it's all his fault.
Speaker 1: We'll get to scond career.
Speaker 2: Biden's fault, yes, but you've got to remember too that
Speaker 2: that was a version of Biden who had spent a
Speaker 2: week locked away and prepped for that debate right whereas
Speaker 2: Trump had campaigned up until the last minute. He knows
Speaker 2: exactly that this is the criticism aimed at him, and
Speaker 2: a lot of the things I've read have said the
Speaker 2: worst performance you can give in a public debate is
Speaker 2: one that confirms everybody's fears. So, as you said me,
Speaker 2: he had one job, which was to allay everybody's fears,
Speaker 2: and he did exactly the opposite. And it was so
Speaker 2: sad to watch because this is a very serious time,
Speaker 2: Like it is always a very serious time, but this
Speaker 2: is a very serious time. These are not serious people,
Speaker 2: Like if we're supposed to believe what we've been being
Speaker 2: told by the democratic side of politics for a very
Speaker 2: long time, which is that Donald Trump is an existential
Speaker 2: threat to everything. And I tend to believe in that.
Speaker 2: I think he's one of the most dangerous about him
Speaker 2: because he stands for nothing except himself, and he will
Speaker 2: make deals with and align himself with the most dangerous
Speaker 2: people in the world if they will pump up his tires.
Speaker 2: So it is an existential threat, and yet it's just
Speaker 2: being allowed to devolve into a banter about golf.
Speaker 1: The absolute shock and horror which quickly curdled in me
Speaker 1: to fury about a country that I don't even live in,
Speaker 1: is how could it come to this? How could in
Speaker 1: a country the size of America. These are the two choices.
Speaker 1: It's twenty twenty four, that's what America is putting up.
Speaker 3: It says a lot about power structures. I think that
Speaker 3: it's a seventy eight year old white man and an
Speaker 3: eighty one year old white man.
Speaker 1: Do you know what? It also says a lot about
Speaker 1: the utter, utter hubris of And I'm just going to
Speaker 1: talk about Joe Biden here, someone who won't be told,
Speaker 1: who has no self awareness. I believe that he is
Speaker 1: a patriot. He cares about his country, he cares about America,
Speaker 1: and the fact that he can't see that he is
Speaker 1: going to lose this election in the most massive way.
Speaker 1: The fact that his ego will not allow him to
Speaker 1: step aside. Even though when he ran the first time
Speaker 1: he said I'm going to be a bridging president. He
Speaker 1: essentially said I'm not going to run for a second term.
Speaker 1: So somewhere along the way around chose you.
Speaker 2: So you've got to understand though, To understand that is
Speaker 2: that in the normal order of things, he would definitely
Speaker 2: run for a second term. That's how it works, right.
Speaker 2: You are allowed to serve two terms and no more
Speaker 2: so most people who go and sit in that presidential
Speaker 2: chair of thinking I'm going to do two terms. Of
Speaker 2: course Donald Trump, but his age, his health or those things,
Speaker 2: as you say, I have indicated that he was not
Speaker 2: going to do that, and yet he chose to do that.
Speaker 3: The nature of aging is also an erosion of self awareness.
Speaker 3: So part of me does have a lot of empathy
Speaker 3: for Joe Biden, who has been a working politician. I
Speaker 3: don't for more than fifty years. Do you know anyone
Speaker 3: who is aging? If you know people who are aging,
Speaker 3: I am thinking of someone in my life who wanted
Speaker 3: to drive and he could no longer drive, and we
Speaker 3: would hide the keys and we would say, you can
Speaker 3: no longer drive. This is like widely experience.
Speaker 2: Those people driving.
Speaker 3: Very rarely do they go, You're right, I can't drive anymore.
Speaker 1: So I agree with you, Jesse. So what do you
Speaker 1: do the people around you?
Speaker 3: That love people around you?
Speaker 1: Hence Jill Biden.
Speaker 3: We will get to Jill Biden.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, we will get to Jill Biden.
Speaker 2: To Jill Biden.
Speaker 3: There's the Democratic Party that I think that they have
Speaker 3: a lot to answer for. But a slight defense of
Speaker 3: Joe Biden is that I think as a president he
Speaker 3: can probably do the job because there are people around
Speaker 3: him who help them. Probably he has thember in relations.
Speaker 1: Literally just so what you're saying, the machine of government
Speaker 1: keeps going and that there are people around.
Speaker 3: And I'm also worried that in this incredibly in depth
Speaker 3: fair criticism of Joe Biden, we're letting Trump off scott free.
Speaker 3: And he cried and he's well, it's also Donald Trump's right.
Speaker 3: And this also says something about the culture that we
Speaker 3: find ourselves in, which is style over substance. And we
Speaker 3: had someone who at least has some substance, has some chops,
Speaker 3: has made some good.
Speaker 1: Decisions for the job. You step aside for the good
Speaker 1: of your party, for the good of your country, for
Speaker 1: the good of democracy.
Speaker 3: Just a very complicated moment.
Speaker 1: Now, Jill Biden, go okay out loud as We had
Speaker 1: a big fight about this, because the first thing I
Speaker 1: said when we were in the planning meeting this morning
Speaker 1: was I'm sorry angry at Jill Biden. Holly said, I.
Speaker 2: Said, why do you always find a woman to blame
Speaker 2: for a man's problems?
Speaker 1: Is not Jill Biden's fast.
Speaker 2: This has got nothing to freaking do with Jill Biden.
Speaker 2: There isn't a woman in the world who's been married
Speaker 2: to a man for forty five years who would not
Speaker 2: publicly defend them in that situation. What they're saying to
Speaker 2: each other right now locked away in Camp David, and
Speaker 2: this might all change in the next twenty four hours.
Speaker 2: Everybody thinks it's very unlikely, despite the unprecedented push for
Speaker 2: Biden to decide that he should step down what she
Speaker 2: says to him in private. We have no idea as
Speaker 2: if there is a wife in the world who would
Speaker 2: come out of that and tell the world media he
Speaker 2: was shit.
Speaker 1: I'm not asking Jill to tell the world's media. I'm
Speaker 1: really not, and I'm going to just take down all
Speaker 1: your arguments one by one. No, My point is this
Speaker 1: conversation is not new. It's at boiling point now and
Speaker 1: at crisis point, panic point, but it's not new. People
Speaker 1: have been talking about this for several years, and in
Speaker 1: all the coverage about whether he would step aside or not,
Speaker 1: everybody has been unanimous in the fact that the only
Speaker 1: person who could convince him to do that is Jill Biden.
Speaker 1: That's what everybody said, right. So back to what happened
Speaker 1: on the debate. The reason I'm agree with Jill Biden
Speaker 1: is that I think Joe Biden is a good man.
Speaker 1: I honestly do. How could you let someone that you
Speaker 1: love go into that situation and humiliate themselves like that
Speaker 1: and whole you say, well, he's got advisors, he's.
Speaker 3: Got this man.
Speaker 2: Also, although you don't control the people that you love,
Speaker 2: I see this playing out in much smaller ways, like
Speaker 2: Jesse's example with the car Keys all the time. Joe Biden,
Speaker 2: despite appearances, it's not like he is literally a baby.
Speaker 1: Well after the debate, there were these watch parties, and
Speaker 1: everyone knew, like everyone was panicking through the debate for
Speaker 1: un minutes, so everyone knew it had been a disaster,
Speaker 1: so they went into crisis mode. He appeared at some
Speaker 1: watch parties. Here's a little clip of Jill Biden introducing
Speaker 1: the crowd to Joe and welcoming Joe to this watch party.
Speaker 1: I can't thank you all enough for staying and for
Speaker 1: being here and for all your support. Joe, you did
Speaker 1: such a great job. You answered every question you knew
Speaker 1: all the Let me ask the crowd, what did Trump
Speaker 1: do back to you saying he's not a child? That
Speaker 1: is literally how I talk to Luna when she can clap,
Speaker 1: And my.
Speaker 2: Point is literally again this is back to a public moment.
Speaker 2: What else is she going to do?
Speaker 1: Okay, So, first of all, she should have had this
Speaker 1: conversation with him a long time ago, because to.
Speaker 2: Her, she probably is you have no idea what she's
Speaker 2: saying to him.
Speaker 1: So all the coverage in the reporting I've read about
Speaker 1: it is that if she decides that he shouldn't do it,
Speaker 1: he won't do it, which is also alarming, and she
Speaker 1: very much believes, well it's reported across the I mean
Speaker 1: it could be.
Speaker 2: Here's a much bigger picture here, which is that the
Speaker 2: Democrats have a big problem on their hands because if
Speaker 2: not Joe, then who right And the problem with that
Speaker 2: is that there is a woman standing right next to
Speaker 2: Joe Biden, who he chose to be his vice president
Speaker 2: at the last election, who is the literal choice if
Speaker 2: it's not him, and nobody wants her now that.
Speaker 1: Other issue, So they're like, what do we do with
Speaker 1: It's not the issue. The issue is nobody wants to
Speaker 1: because I mean, he did save America from another Trump presidency,
Speaker 1: right and a second term, So everyone in his party
Speaker 1: feels very indebted to him. He is a good man,
Speaker 1: They are loyal. Nobody wants to humiliate him. So everyone
Speaker 1: is basically not wanting to topple him because the indignity
Speaker 1: of that. It's not like in Australia where it's just
Speaker 1: like you knife your leader every few weeks. It would
Speaker 1: be a terrible, terrible Also, it's no one, So it's
Speaker 1: this man's hubris and that people around him. I don't
Speaker 1: believe for a second if Jill Biden and the people
Speaker 1: around him were telling him step down, that he wouldn't
Speaker 1: step down.
Speaker 3: I don't think that. I just think that responsibility doesn't
Speaker 3: sit on Jill Biden's shoulders.
Speaker 1: She's the only one that doesn't work for him, So
Speaker 1: yes it does.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's not true. Like, think about a CEO.
Speaker 3: I keep thinking about this as a business, right, and
Speaker 3: you have a CEO who is going out and representing
Speaker 3: your company. And let's remember that the man that we saw,
Speaker 3: Joe Biden is like he's sitting down with Benjamin Nette
Speaker 3: Yahoo about an international conflict the stakes. Well, that's mortifying
Speaker 3: Vladimir Putin, like these are really really important diplomatic conversations
Speaker 3: that need to happen, and he's not capable of it.
Speaker 3: We all agree, Trump, I don't necessarily agree that he's
Speaker 3: not capable of it.
Speaker 1: And sometimes you have to have hard conversations with people
Speaker 1: you love. And to be clear, I blame Biden. But
Speaker 1: as you say, when you get to a certain age
Speaker 1: and you have cognitive decline, which he clearly does, the
Speaker 1: people around you sometimes have to help you.
Speaker 2: See sometimes you won't listen to them.
Speaker 3: Yes, but if this were a CEO, the business, the structure,
Speaker 3: the welfare of that business means that people inside it
Speaker 3: need to have honest conversations with the CEO about their capacity.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't put it on the CEO's of course, to
Speaker 3: say to them, oh, you're not really being completely coherent.
Speaker 1: Everyone absolutely is not because everybody else works for you.
Speaker 1: But but you can stay to your partner.
Speaker 2: Since that debate finished on Friday, this is all anybody's
Speaker 2: been talking about. If you really believe that there isn't
Speaker 2: a single person in the Democratic Party who isn't putting
Speaker 2: pressure on Joe Biden to resign as of now. But
Speaker 2: it's a very complicated situation. The idea that he just
Speaker 2: needs his wife to tell him off, pat him on
Speaker 2: the head, and send him off to his armchair watch
Speaker 2: daytime TV is nonsense.
Speaker 1: I'm saying it's intervention. That intervention needs to be led
Speaker 1: by Jill.
Speaker 2: B No, because there are options, so it might well
Speaker 2: be being led by her, right.
Speaker 3: There are options that aren't Joe Biden having come to
Speaker 3: Jesus moment where he steps down. Like, there's also a
Speaker 3: situation in which the Democratic Party, who is.
Speaker 1: No, they can't, they won't do it.
Speaker 2: They could, So let's get onto that, right if they
Speaker 2: did do what everybody is urging them to do right now,
Speaker 2: which is whether it's because Jill has a quiet word,
Speaker 2: or whether it's because his loyal advisors go and say,
Speaker 2: which is a terrifying thing to do, because if you're
Speaker 2: one of the people who says to him after that, mate,
Speaker 2: you have to go. You're not going to keep working
Speaker 2: for him, correct because he will always remember that. The
Speaker 2: whole thing is if they do, they are thrown into
Speaker 2: unprecedented chaos.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: What everyone's saying is the path that could happen now
Speaker 2: is that the convention, which is in August, they could
Speaker 2: choose to throw the nomination open again and reallocate it now.
Speaker 2: Harris is obviously, as I said before, for Kamala Harris
Speaker 2: is the vice president. She is the obvious choice, and
Speaker 2: if Biden agreed to step down and endorsed her, she
Speaker 2: would be the choice. But what I'm interested in is
Speaker 2: why nobody wants that to happen. Why all the good
Speaker 2: will that went towards Kamala Harris. Will remember the day
Speaker 2: of the inauguration, when the world was so energized and
Speaker 2: excited to see a woman, relatively young, woman of color
Speaker 2: being given one of the highest offices in the land.
Speaker 2: That good will seems to have entirely dried up. So
Speaker 2: now when even these very knowledgeable Democrats, of whom there
Speaker 2: are many, are talking about options, they're not saying Harris,
Speaker 2: They're saying all these other names that are out there.
Speaker 2: And in order to get any of those people, they're
Speaker 2: people like Gavin Newsome, people like Gretchen Whim, they would
Speaker 2: have such a long way to get to to anything
Speaker 2: like the brand recognition. Plus all the money that's already
Speaker 2: been raised has been raised for Biden Harris. The system
Speaker 2: isn't set up for this level of chaos, so it
Speaker 2: would be an intensely bold move. And now the Democrats
Speaker 2: are sitting there wrestling with do we throw ourselves into
Speaker 2: that level of chaos and maybe lose, or do we
Speaker 2: stick with the plan that we've got and lose.
Speaker 1: Exactly The reason I think that's a good idea is
Speaker 1: if you look at what elections, particularly in America, have become,
Speaker 1: which is essentially reality shows thanks to John Trump. It's exciting.
Speaker 1: So suddenly people are going to be galvanized. There's going
Speaker 1: to be someone new because remember going back to the
Speaker 1: part where people have to be excited. So even if
Speaker 1: Joe Biden had got up and been okay, or even good.
Speaker 1: How excited are you about going to the polls? Like,
Speaker 1: it's not like voting for the first female president or
Speaker 1: the first African American president or someone who is younger
Speaker 1: and seems like they've got a vision.
Speaker 3: Seen how that a new generation. Also, it hands Trump
Speaker 3: an argument, which is this party is completely unstable, and
Speaker 3: we've seen that play out in Australian politics. So I
Speaker 3: think that the keeping Joe Yes, there's an element of
Speaker 3: why won't he step down, but it's also a political strategy,
Speaker 3: which is he was the president that toppled Trump. Giving
Speaker 3: it to someone else that party look chaotic, which isn't something.
Speaker 2: But at this point I agree with me. I think
Speaker 2: it would actually be really energizing. But I am still
Speaker 2: obsessed with why not Harrish?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll get to that one second. But all Trump
Speaker 1: wants is for them to keep Biden. Right. He knows
Speaker 1: he can pretty much just go on holidays between now
Speaker 1: and November and he will romp it in. You know,
Speaker 1: I've been talking to people who say they're not you know,
Speaker 1: Democratic voters who are so angry that the fact that
Speaker 1: the system has brought us to this point and that
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party have been so lax in providing regeneration,
Speaker 1: a fresh start and thinking this through that they're saying
Speaker 1: they're not going to vote as a protest now, Kamala Harris,
Speaker 1: I don't know why her approval is so low, and
Speaker 1: I don't know why she has such poor polling, because
Speaker 1: she's been widely criticized for sort of not carving out
Speaker 1: her own role. So she's widely understood and recognized and
Speaker 1: acknowledged to have done a poor job at being vice president.
Speaker 1: Now I can't tell you that I know what she
Speaker 1: should have done and what Joe Biden did so well
Speaker 1: apparently as vice president, or Mike Pence did so well
Speaker 1: as vice president, or Al Gore did so well as
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton's vice president. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think it's a very difficult job because what you
Speaker 2: have to do is you have to attract just enough attention,
Speaker 2: but not too much attention. You have to be interesting
Speaker 2: enough that you'll get press, but not overwhelm or override
Speaker 2: the press that the president wants, although you might imagine
Speaker 2: at the moment that the president probably wants less price
Speaker 2: and so it's a very difficult dance. And I have
Speaker 2: heard some commentary that she hasn't managed to nail that
Speaker 2: dance in quite the way that say that Biden and
Speaker 2: Obama bromance did. But it is also very hard to
Speaker 2: not think that it can't have anything to do with
Speaker 2: the fact that she is a woman.
Speaker 3: But that one commentary I've been reading too is that
Speaker 3: she's a woman of color, and the Democrats are at
Speaker 3: a point now where they're like, will people not vote
Speaker 3: for her because she's a woman of color? Maybe either way,
Speaker 3: if they won't vote for her, they won't vote for her,
Speaker 3: and if the future of democracy is hinging on this moment,
Speaker 3: which is incredibly depressed, And.
Speaker 2: Then they're saying that that presents the Democrats with a
Speaker 2: very difficult problem because they have to go around Harris
Speaker 2: to get a new nominee, and that's going to tear
Speaker 2: the party.
Speaker 1: Apart as well. So Biden has two choices. Really, he
Speaker 1: can just keep going and double down, which is what
Speaker 1: a lot of people think he's going to do, which
Speaker 1: is shocking. He actually has three choices because he can
Speaker 1: endorse Kamala Harris, which means it won't be contested, she'll
Speaker 1: just become the new leader and she will run for president,
Speaker 1: or he has a hard conversation with Kamala Harris and says,
Speaker 1: I'm for the good of the country, I'm stepping down
Speaker 1: and I'm not endorsing you. I'm throwing it open, and
Speaker 1: she then has to throw her hat in the ring
Speaker 1: with some of these other contenders. Over the next seven weeks,
Speaker 1: they go on CNN and make their case and sort
Speaker 1: of act presidential, and then at the convention in seven
Speaker 1: weeks in August, they vote for who they which should
Speaker 1: go to the election.
Speaker 3: Historically, actually happened to Joe Biden because he was the
Speaker 3: vice president of Barack Obama and it was assumed that
Speaker 3: he would be the candidate, and then of course it
Speaker 3: was actually Hillary Clinton after him, So there is precedent
Speaker 3: for that happening. I have two quick questions. Are they
Speaker 3: going to be more presidential debates?
Speaker 2: Well, there's meant to be another one in September, but
Speaker 2: everyone thinks it won't happen unless, of course, there is
Speaker 2: a new candidate.
Speaker 3: And my second question is, Maya, what do you think
Speaker 3: they should do.
Speaker 1: I think they should throw it open for the good
Speaker 1: of the country. I was so disheartened to hear that. Oh,
Speaker 1: but you know, no one wants to have the hard
Speaker 1: conversation with Joe, which is just awful. If you love
Speaker 1: him and you care about him, either as someone who
Speaker 1: works for him or someone in his family, how can
Speaker 1: you want that? Humil's true.
Speaker 2: I've heard very senior Democrats openly saying that they think
Speaker 2: he should step down for the first time ever. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so it's not like this is not getting to him.
Speaker 1: Well, I hope not. I hope it's getting to him.
Speaker 1: I think that they should definitely throw it open because
Speaker 1: I think people are going, you know, wetting their parts
Speaker 1: about it being unprecedented and chaos if he was sick
Speaker 1: and he had to step down for health reasons, which
Speaker 1: could not like they just go, oh, well, Trump's going
Speaker 1: to be president. We can't think of what to do next.
Speaker 1: The part in the system would all work, and they
Speaker 1: should be sending the best possible candidate, one who can
Speaker 1: make the case for generational change and not have people
Speaker 1: choosing between two people who are unfit for the job.
Speaker 6: And I'm in very good health. I just won two
Speaker 6: club championships, not even senior, two regular club championships. To
Speaker 6: do that, you have to be quite smart.
Speaker 5: We're able to make every single solitary person eligible for
Speaker 5: what I've been able to do with the COVID I
Speaker 5: excuse me with.
Speaker 1: What Here's a life lesson for free brides are a lot.
Speaker 1: There's a bride who's gone vile. I'm going to tell
Speaker 1: you a story and try to follow it. I've read
Speaker 1: up on this, so you don't have to. She's an
Speaker 1: American woman called Alexandra J. Conda, and she is at
Speaker 1: the center of what has become known as the Cpia
Speaker 1: bride saga. It all started when she got married on
Speaker 1: an overcast day and she didn't like the way her
Speaker 1: photos looked. She said, her skin looked pale and it
Speaker 1: didn't look like her. So she asked the photographer for
Speaker 1: the original images and wanted to re edit them herself.
Speaker 1: And she said that the way they had been retouched
Speaker 1: and filtered by the photographer was not acceptable and she
Speaker 1: was going to do a better job. Now, all of
Speaker 1: these could have happened behind the scenes, but why would it.
Speaker 1: It of course played out on TikTok. So she made
Speaker 1: a long series of tiktoks. Here's a little bit of them.
Speaker 7: Imagine being almost eight thousand dollars for a wedding photographer,
Speaker 7: and when you raised your concerns.
Speaker 3: They threatened to sue you for slander if you.
Speaker 1: Spoke your truth.
Speaker 3: So I found my wedding photographer on Instagram.
Speaker 7: Like majority of people in this day of age do,
Speaker 7: her feed looked so bright, airy, but also had this
Speaker 7: goldenness to it, and I loved that. But the goldenness
Speaker 7: that it had still captured the beauty of like colors, blue,
Speaker 7: your skin tone, etc. So she delivered the photos, and
Speaker 7: of course right away I'm like, oh my god, I
Speaker 7: love them.
Speaker 3: I love versing one of them.
Speaker 7: I'm like beaming of excitement. And then for about thirty days,
Speaker 7: I'm staring at the photos and I'm like, why is
Speaker 7: there something bothering me? Like, well, I couldn't put my
Speaker 7: finger on it until I realized I'm a meetup artist. Okay,
Speaker 7: I was a meetup artist in the wedding industry for years,
Speaker 7: and I do may all make up for my wedding.
Speaker 1: So is that so interesting listening? I'm glad you spent
Speaker 1: thirty days because you wouldn't want to make a snap,
Speaker 1: you know, judgment on what it was that was bothering her.
Speaker 1: So it took her thirty days. The photographer after she
Speaker 1: started making these Tiktoks threatened to sue her for slander,
Speaker 1: which is fair enough because that's like business ruining. And
Speaker 1: I assume she named the photographer or people worked out
Speaker 1: who the photographer was. Some people reacted with horror, others
Speaker 1: with sympathy. Some people said, do people get married for
Speaker 1: the photos? This is insane to me. I don't understand.
Speaker 1: Others cheered her on for demanding her money back and
Speaker 1: feeling so aggrieved. Jesse, you got married last year and
Speaker 1: you're deep in wedding mode. You were at a wedding
Speaker 1: just a few weeks ago. Do you and your friends
Speaker 1: like your wedding photos? Is it too late for you
Speaker 1: to complain if you don't.
Speaker 3: This speaks to something so much bigger than the CPR
Speaker 3: bride and an overcast day. That is one thing. But
Speaker 3: I almost don't want to get into. As much as
Speaker 3: I love the weeds because the weeds are fun, I
Speaker 3: want to leave those women alone because it's like, it's
Speaker 3: not their fault.
Speaker 2: It's not it's not the bride, not the bride's fault.
Speaker 2: This is an instance in which I'm very happy to
Speaker 2: blame a woman.
Speaker 1: It's a team bride, not team photographer.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I'm also team photographer. I'm probably more
Speaker 3: team photographer than I am team bride. But she is
Speaker 3: just a product of this culture that tells us that
Speaker 3: on our wedding day we have to look like a supermodel.
Speaker 3: And I spoke about this a bit at the time,
Speaker 3: but when I was getting married, the things that I
Speaker 3: learned about what people do in the lead up to
Speaker 3: a wedding from a twelve month I don't even know
Speaker 3: what you'd call it, like facial program where you go
Speaker 3: and get special facial things to look pretty on your
Speaker 3: wedding day, to ridiculous diets, to teeth whitening, to you've
Speaker 3: got to get your hair trial, you got to get
Speaker 3: your makeup trial, like absolutely absurd, And then you go
Speaker 3: and spend an inordinate amount of money on a wedding
Speaker 3: dress and choos and the pressure pretty master. When then
Speaker 3: the photos land in your inbox, you better look hot,
Speaker 3: you better look the best you have ever looked in
Speaker 3: your own.
Speaker 1: But I'm already filtered.
Speaker 3: Well, I think that they get edited or whatever, but
Speaker 3: the problem is it's still you, right. And I was
Speaker 3: sitting there with a bunch of girlfriends literally a few
Speaker 3: weeks ago, and someone said you know. I didn't want
Speaker 3: to say this out loud, but I hate my wedding photos.
Speaker 3: I hate them. And she was saying, I got them
Speaker 3: back and I thought that I was going to look
Speaker 3: the best I've ever looked, and I would be blown
Speaker 3: away by my own beauty. And I wasn't. I just
Speaker 3: looked like myself. And then everyone at the table who
Speaker 3: was married just started whealing and was like, I'm so
Speaker 3: glad you've said it. Some were saying I felt pressured
Speaker 3: to put pictures on Instagram, but I actually hated how
Speaker 3: I looked because of my chin and my hair, and
Speaker 3: why did I choose to do that? And no, no, no,
Speaker 3: no no. And I looked through the three hundred, five hundred,
Speaker 3: eight hundred photos of myself and could barely choose one
Speaker 3: I liked.
Speaker 1: Thirty Days, Holly's, Holly's shuddering and just Holly is an
Speaker 1: existential deep sigh.
Speaker 2: Can I just please take the floor. Why wedding photos?
Speaker 2: What are they for?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: Okay, this is a thing. Wedding photos have come to represent,
Speaker 3: these photos that have landed in my in box. I'm
Speaker 3: not saying this is how I felt, but this is
Speaker 3: what the culture is telling us. You have to look
Speaker 3: the best you have ever looked in your life and
Speaker 3: the best you will ever look for her, because there
Speaker 3: is something about that moment that we have been told
Speaker 3: as women, that you better be your thinnest, that you
Speaker 3: better be your most beautiful, that you're young, that everyone's
Speaker 3: going to see these photos, that they're gonna be up
Speaker 3: on your wall, that you your future children might look
Speaker 3: at this, and my mom looks part.
Speaker 1: Have you ever gone into someone's house for a house inspection,
Speaker 1: like if you're buying a house or renting a house,
Speaker 1: and people have no wedding photos.
Speaker 2: After all, lots of my friends have their wedding photos up.
Speaker 2: But I still don't understand, right, because.
Speaker 1: It's a big beauty standard to judge yourself with for
Speaker 1: the rest.
Speaker 2: Of it and beat yourself with for the rest of
Speaker 2: your life. Because you did, as you said, Jesse, spend
Speaker 2: a whole year preparing for Thotels. Clear I did not,
Speaker 2: but you sorry you didn't, and you were heavily pregnant, pregnant,
Speaker 2: and I was there and you looked fucking gorgeous, so
Speaker 2: we just have to put that on the table. But
Speaker 2: still you weren't really in a position where you were like,
Speaker 2: you weren't shredding for the wedding.
Speaker 1: You weren't doing all that.
Speaker 3: That was not your vibe.
Speaker 2: Why don't we do what we do at every other
Speaker 2: major milestone event that we have these days, which is
Speaker 2: you say, the your mates have at it, take a
Speaker 2: million pictures and put them all in a group chat,
Speaker 2: and I'll just pick the ones I like, and those
Speaker 2: will be the ones that we'll put out there. And
Speaker 2: we could all save ourselves a lot of money and
Speaker 2: angst and time. And you could still put whatever filter
Speaker 2: on a you want, print one out at one of
Speaker 2: those like office works things and stick it on the
Speaker 2: wall or put it.
Speaker 7: On the bake.
Speaker 3: You can trust your friends in all the photos, you're
Speaker 3: gonna be blinking. Your friends gonna look hard. And it
Speaker 3: was your wedding.
Speaker 2: There's some picture of you at an event that you.
Speaker 7: Like, isn't there?
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't understand I'm not married, right, so maybe
Speaker 2: that's it. But also when I was home recently in Britain,
Speaker 2: I found my mom and dad's wedding photos because I
Speaker 2: was going through all their pictures to make my dad's
Speaker 2: eighties photo slide. They got married in the sixties there
Speaker 2: are two photos of them black and white.
Speaker 1: Jeez, they must have had color backs. Know what's going on.
Speaker 2: They're standing outside a church smiling. Snap. They're standing next
Speaker 2: to a wedding cake, smiling snap to me because I
Speaker 2: love them. I love those photos. They are important to me.
Speaker 2: That's the you know, a big moment for them. It
Speaker 2: didn't take four hours. There weren't twenty five different framings settings.
Speaker 2: Can we all leave everyone else to get drunk in
Speaker 2: the barn?
Speaker 1: Stand over there?
Speaker 2: She certainly did not have a hair rehearsal. You don't
Speaker 2: even I asked her what color was this thing you're wearing,
Speaker 2: because you can't really tell me black Mike's I can't
Speaker 2: really remember anyway. But the photos will be special to
Speaker 2: you because the day was special to you. This kind
Speaker 2: of shit, Ceep, your bride is everything that is wrong
Speaker 2: with this situation. We have missed the point of weddings
Speaker 2: and relationships and just given ourselves more things to spend
Speaker 2: money on, beat ourselves up about, and decide that we're
Speaker 2: not good enough for and.
Speaker 3: It's in our power to change it. We need a
Speaker 3: moment's silence for wedding photographers. Absolutely makeup artist. I know
Speaker 3: the horror stories. I've spoken to makeup artists who have said,
Speaker 3: you go to do the makeup on the day and
Speaker 3: then they're looking in the mirror. I guess what, You're
Speaker 3: still Jesse on your wedding day, and you're not happy
Speaker 3: because you're like, I'm not j Loo and I was
Speaker 3: promised Jaylo. And then you've got screaming and tantrums and
Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff. And we complain the women,
Speaker 3: and you know, I don't endorse that kind of behavior,
Speaker 3: but this.
Speaker 1: What's obviously Joe Biden's fault.
Speaker 3: His pressure is ridiculous. Maya, do you love your wedding photos?
Speaker 3: Don't have any I've seen a photo of your wedding.
Speaker 1: I didn't have a photographer, we didn't have you.
Speaker 2: You were doing what I was saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is so interesting when you think about it, right,
Speaker 1: it's very on brand with how much I sort of
Speaker 1: was not involved with my wedding. It occurred to me
Speaker 1: at one point that we don't have like a photo
Speaker 1: of us with our parents or anything on the date.
Speaker 1: So like, as we were leaving our place to go
Speaker 1: to the reception, I quickly sort of handed someone a
Speaker 1: camera and we sort of gathered on the front steps
Speaker 1: for one second, but it's like, we don't have any
Speaker 1: formal photos, and when I was thinking about, what's the
Speaker 1: point of them. For a lot of women, it is
Speaker 1: the only time they will get their hair and makeup done.
Speaker 1: It is the most expensive dress they'll ever wear. In fact,
Speaker 1: pretty much for everyone, it is the only time in
Speaker 1: their life that they will be the complete center of
Speaker 1: attention before or since. And it might also be the
Speaker 1: only time that everyone in your family of various generations
Speaker 1: is photographed together in a photo that it's not like
Speaker 1: someone's head chopped off and someone's blinking in whatever. So
Speaker 1: they are sort of historical documents in many ways.
Speaker 3: Wedding photos so we know that your value as a
Speaker 3: woman is totally indexed on how you look. That's how
Speaker 3: we're socialized. And on a wedding day you are given
Speaker 3: permission to try to try very hard. Other times, like
Speaker 3: when you come to work or whatever, he's still trying,
Speaker 3: but like you have permission to go one hundred percent, but.
Speaker 1: Not even permission. You're a current pressure. Yes, yes, you
Speaker 1: have the expectation that you will look the best you've
Speaker 1: ever looked. So I get why you want to capture
Speaker 1: the results of that. Yeah, it just seems to be
Speaker 1: a good use of resource to get that on record.
Speaker 3: And it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: It's not like you can use it for your LinkedIn shot,
Speaker 1: although some people don't be sure.
Speaker 3: They would just prop it really close. But I agree
Speaker 3: that the purpose of wedding photos and we had a
Speaker 3: brilliant photographer, and I love the photos, and she just
Speaker 3: did such a beautiful job because you can see all
Speaker 3: these people in one room who, unless I die tomorrow,
Speaker 3: likely won't be in the same room again, and that's
Speaker 3: really special. And even getting those photos framed and giving
Speaker 3: them to parents and grandparents and everything like it means
Speaker 3: a lot to me. It's almost like a it's like
Speaker 3: capturing a like a historical moment.
Speaker 1: When you just said, unless I die tomorrow, so you
Speaker 1: mean it at a future. Yeah, But we don't take
Speaker 1: photos at funerals, do we No?
Speaker 3: But I mean, I agree with.
Speaker 1: That, and we don't. That's the other time that everyone
Speaker 1: is together, and we don't take photos at funerals, not
Speaker 1: that I'm suggesting we start, So I get that, But
Speaker 1: I do think that photos have become this stand in
Speaker 1: for so much more than just the photos. It's like,
Speaker 1: it's got to capture the feeling. It's got to capture
Speaker 1: the love. It's got to capture you know, you've got
Speaker 1: to look the best you've ever looked. It's got to
Speaker 1: capture every joy. That's a big ask for a photographer.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I reckon though, that we don't need permission to go,
Speaker 3: because once you've spent all of that money, you want
Speaker 3: to have the feeling of going. These are great photos.
Speaker 3: If you are bright to your photo, what do you.
Speaker 7: Do with that?
Speaker 1: No one wants to see your wedding photos.
Speaker 3: Oh well, we can sit there. But if you look
Speaker 3: at them and you go, I don't love them, you
Speaker 3: have permission not to love them. That's okay, you can
Speaker 3: move on.
Speaker 1: It's probably not the photographer's fault. Yeah, it's probably just
Speaker 1: that it was an impossible breath and it's something that
Speaker 1: that's just too fast. Face Style.
Speaker 3: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively from Mum and Maya. Subscribers follow the
Speaker 3: link in the show notes to get us in your
Speaker 3: ears five days a week, and a huge thank you
Speaker 3: to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2: I was sick last week, but something that pierced my
Speaker 2: migraine headache from hell was a news story of questionable merit,
Speaker 2: something we're not sure we should talk about at all,
Speaker 2: or anyone should talk about it at all.
Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about it.
Speaker 3: We should decide during talking about it whether we should
Speaker 3: talk about it.
Speaker 2: Last week, you didn't you two and took the high
Speaker 2: ground and did not discuss the brief pearl clutching mayhem
Speaker 2: that kicked off around the photograph of the federal opposition
Speaker 2: leader son Tom Dutton holding up a little clear baggie
Speaker 2: of white powder on social media with the caption little
Speaker 2: birthday tree on his eighteenth birthday. Now, as every news outlet,
Speaker 2: Julie noted, and so are we, we are not suggesting
Speaker 2: that the contents of that bag are drugs. But this
Speaker 2: morning I suggested that we should talk about this because
Speaker 2: I'm really interested in a column that was written by
Speaker 2: another politician's son who was once a teenager getting his
Speaker 2: own blasting from the media over his bad behavior.
Speaker 1: Now I think, actually.
Speaker 2: This conversation might even be relevant if your parent isn't
Speaker 2: necessarily famous or powerful, but maybe just has any kind
Speaker 2: of job in your community that comes with a bit
Speaker 2: of an expectation of a certain standard of behavior, like
Speaker 2: a local doctor or a cop, or the football coach
Speaker 2: or a school teacher. Right, if everybody knows who your
Speaker 2: parents and you get in trouble for something, it will
Speaker 2: inevitably reflect on them. And Nick Brax is the son
Speaker 2: of Steve Bras who was the labor premier of Victoria
Speaker 2: from like nineteen ninety nine till two thousand and seven,
Speaker 2: so quite a long time. He was quite famous and
Speaker 2: high profile. And in two thousand and seven, Nick Bras
Speaker 2: had a car accident. He was driving his parents car.
Speaker 2: It was four am. He had been drinking, and he
Speaker 2: was a pea player and he was twenty and no
Speaker 2: one was seriously hurt in the accident, but he crashed
Speaker 2: the car into a tree and he was charged and
Speaker 2: it was a big news story. And it was also
Speaker 2: the third public incident at the time involving him, Nick
Speaker 2: and drink in a short space of time. So the
Speaker 2: media all went nuts for it and they were like,
Speaker 2: what Steve Brack's gonna do. And actually, not that long
Speaker 2: after that, Steve Bras did step down as premiere. Nick
Speaker 2: wrote in the Nine Newspapers Today about Tom Dutton. He wrote,
Speaker 2: I know exactly what it's like to go through what
Speaker 2: he's going through. It would be so confusing and difficult
Speaker 2: for him in the position that he's in, the family
Speaker 2: that he's in, and the age that he is. It's
Speaker 2: a lonely exclusive club. So few people you can talk
Speaker 2: to who understand the experience, and there's no guidebook on
Speaker 2: how to deal with it. And it made me reflect
Speaker 2: on my reaction to the story. I have to admit
Speaker 2: that when I first saw this thing about Dutton, I
Speaker 2: felt a little like dopamine hit of satisfaction, maybe because
Speaker 2: I guess my personal opinion of Peter Dutton, and this
Speaker 2: is my personal opinion, is that he's not a man
Speaker 2: known for his empathy.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: He's famously hardline law and order, including when it comes
Speaker 2: to drugs. He does not support harmonimization policies like pill testing.
Speaker 2: He has voted in favor of drug testing welfare recipients.
Speaker 2: He has criticized softening drug laws in places like the Act.
Speaker 2: So when this story first broke, I think there are
Speaker 2: a certain amount of people like me, perhaps who got
Speaker 2: a petty satisfaction to see that powerful people with very
Speaker 2: binary views about things also have to deal with the
Speaker 2: complexity of the people that they love behaving in ways
Speaker 2: that they publicly is. But my wiser mind knows that
Speaker 2: shaming a young man who has no say whatsoever in
Speaker 2: his father's job or his profile means that I know
Speaker 2: that really it's morally reprehensible for his picture to be
Speaker 2: splashed all over everywhere. And as Nick Brax wrote, pile
Speaker 2: and guilt and shame onto young boys for decisions a
Speaker 2: lot of kids will make in their lifetimes doesn't work.
Speaker 2: When that happens, it can stick around for a long time,
Speaker 2: it bleeds into everything else in your life, and you
Speaker 2: become paralyzed worrying about being judged for anything you do
Speaker 2: and what people will think. It plays on your sense
Speaker 2: of feeling autonomous and reinforces the mindset of when I
Speaker 2: make a decision, bad things happen, and it's not how
Speaker 2: we should be conditioned. Mia are the actions of a
Speaker 2: politician's child or the child of any prominent person any
Speaker 2: of our business.
Speaker 1: I don't know. If there's a blanket answer on this,
Speaker 1: I would say no, actually, And it's interesting because some
Speaker 1: people in defending the way, and let's just go back
Speaker 1: to who is at fault here? The person who leaked
Speaker 1: that photo, which is on Snapchat, it's Jill Biden. No,
Speaker 1: what an asshole of a mate. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: a problem with social media. So many people are following you,
Speaker 1: but someone knew exactly what they were doing when they
Speaker 1: snapped that and shared it. In terms of whether the
Speaker 1: media reports on it or not is more tricky because
Speaker 1: I've heard some people say, well, when you're a politician
Speaker 1: and you use your children in campaigning, you're the one
Speaker 1: that's making them part of the conversation. And we've seen
Speaker 1: different leaders do that in the past, particularly when they're
Speaker 1: doing sixty minutes interviews around an election campaign. Scott Morrison
Speaker 1: did it with his daughter's Tony Abbott. He would always
Speaker 1: take his three young daughters to campaign events and they
Speaker 1: did that thing of when they're in the swimming pool.
Speaker 1: So if it's used as a tool to make you
Speaker 1: more parlatable to the media, it could be argued that
Speaker 1: what they then do becomes a question of public interest.
Speaker 1: I went back on Peter Dutton's Instagram account because some
Speaker 1: people flashed a photo of him with his family. He
Speaker 1: has not published any photos of his family apart from
Speaker 1: his wife, since May twenty six. Twenty twenty two, which
Speaker 1: is when he did a media interview and they took
Speaker 1: a photo declaring himself a candidate for the leader of
Speaker 1: the Liberal Party. In the post that he did, he
Speaker 1: didn't even mention his children or how old they were,
Speaker 1: and they didn't speak, they didn't do any media. It
Speaker 1: was just a picture of him sort of walking down
Speaker 1: the street looking at the camera with his three children.
Speaker 1: He's got two sons and a daughter and his wife.
Speaker 1: His wife is sporadically but in very few I couldn't
Speaker 1: even remember what she looked like. I don't remember ever
Speaker 1: seeing her or hearing from her.
Speaker 3: I don't think he puts his family, and he does
Speaker 3: he doesn't.
Speaker 1: Albo does with his fiancee Jodi, but I can't remember
Speaker 1: much about his children. Because what's different now even compared
Speaker 1: to two thousand and seven is social media and what
Speaker 1: can happen and the Internet. Tanya Plibisek, who was in
Speaker 1: a media interview either on her own or with Peter
Speaker 1: Dutton the next day, was asked about this and she
Speaker 1: very firmly said, I'm not going to speak about it.
Speaker 1: I'm not commenting on it because every single politician knows
Speaker 1: there but for the grace of God goes my family
Speaker 1: or my brother, or my kid, or my uncle or
Speaker 1: my partner. You know, I think that we understand that
Speaker 1: there are certain boundaries. I really felt for everybody in
Speaker 1: that situation, but I particularly felt for Peter Dutton because
Speaker 1: I think that the guilt that he would feel about
Speaker 1: the scrutiny and the attention and the spotlight on his
Speaker 1: kids and on his family because of as you say,
Speaker 1: Holy a decision that he made would be absolutely intense.
Speaker 1: I know that I feel it with my own kids.
Speaker 3: And the question is I mean you brought up and
Speaker 3: I've seen this argument a lot. He has shared photos
Speaker 3: of his family before, but you know, I've shared a
Speaker 3: photo of my daughter before. Does that mean that everyone's
Speaker 3: entitled to see her report card one day? No, I
Speaker 3: don't think that that's a logical argument.
Speaker 1: Or if she's having a tantrum in the street, should
Speaker 1: they take a photo of that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right. And it's funny that you bring that
Speaker 3: up because Aberze's son. There's this weird story. I went
Speaker 3: down this rabbit hole. I had missed it, but a
Speaker 3: radio announcer was in the Quantess chairman's lounge and he
Speaker 3: saw Anthony Aberneze's son, and he just went he's twenty
Speaker 3: three years old.
Speaker 1: How is?
Speaker 3: And he went on this sort of spray about it,
Speaker 3: that it's ridiculous that someone so young would be in
Speaker 3: that lounge. I think that we need to afford these
Speaker 3: people some level of privacy. Whether or not you think
Speaker 3: you should be in that lounge feels kind of irrelevant.
Speaker 3: Like these people, as you say, are not responsible. They
Speaker 3: didn't decide to be politicians. They're just young men or
Speaker 3: women trying to live their lives. And I felt really
Speaker 3: sad for Tom Dutton. I saw the story pop up
Speaker 3: and I didn't click, and I thought this irrelevant. But
Speaker 3: I know what you're trying to do, and what the
Speaker 3: coverage was trying to do was it had nothing to
Speaker 3: do with Tom Dutton. It was an attempt to shame
Speaker 3: Peter Dutton.
Speaker 1: To weaponize it again, to weaponize it due to their credit.
Speaker 1: The story die because nobody gave it oxygen. Now the
Speaker 1: AOP could have given it oxygen, they chose not to.
Speaker 1: Pretty much, no one gave it oxygen, so no one
Speaker 1: came out and went blah blah blah blah. Everyone just left.
Speaker 3: Do you sort of tabloid me about twenty four hours.
Speaker 2: For about twenty four hours, it was almost like, let's
Speaker 2: see if we can whip this up into a thing.
Speaker 2: And then I agree. I think it did die down
Speaker 2: really quickly, which is good. I understand the instinct to
Speaker 2: go ha hipocrisy at work, or if you feel very
Speaker 2: strongly that someone is a political enemy of yours and
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily mean mine, but you know that you
Speaker 2: will wedge your knife into any gap, any crack, and
Speaker 2: go okay, mister law and Order doesn't show much empathy
Speaker 2: or sympathy for families living in difficult situations on indigenous
Speaker 2: communities or in refuge eue detention centers, but now we're
Speaker 2: suddenly supposed to be empathetic to you. I understand that impulse,
Speaker 2: because there's a bit of it in me, right, But
Speaker 2: I think it's one of those things that you have
Speaker 2: to like hold and look at and go, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, that's not where we're going here. And
Speaker 2: I think that the Brax column was really interesting because,
Speaker 2: as I say, I reckon that the pressure you'd feel
Speaker 2: not to shame and make life more complicated for your
Speaker 2: parents would be intense. Even as I said, if it's
Speaker 2: something that's much more low key in your community. I
Speaker 2: know that as a parent of a teenager, there is
Speaker 2: a fine line and it's complex to and pick it
Speaker 2: sometimes whether you're the behavior of your kid you're worried
Speaker 2: about for them or for you. And I don't mean
Speaker 2: that as a public person. I mean full stop, you know,
Speaker 2: like it's kind of like when you're at a barbecue
Speaker 2: and your child is being naughty and annoying. Is the
Speaker 2: bit of you that's going and telling them shut up,
Speaker 2: shut down, shut up, shut down because of them or
Speaker 2: because of you, because you feel judged, and you know
Speaker 2: they're all like, well, Holly clearly can't control her child,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? This is something that comes
Speaker 2: to parenting, and I think that it's when it gets
Speaker 2: to more higher stakes things and the way that we
Speaker 2: all think teenagers should behave, like definitely not dab and drugs,
Speaker 2: being really excellent at school. They should be ducks, they
Speaker 2: should be off to university, they should be doing this,
Speaker 2: they should be doing that. And if they're not doing
Speaker 2: those things, it can be hard to unpick whether you're
Speaker 2: worried about that for them or you. And I reckon
Speaker 2: that that must be magnetized by a million when you're
Speaker 2: in this field.
Speaker 1: In case you missed it, out louders, scrollback, can you
Speaker 1: feed because there was a little treat on Saturday that
Speaker 1: you may have missed because we don't usually drop an episode,
Speaker 1: but we did a special episode because we have been
Speaker 1: obsessed ever since Jesse introduced us to the idea of
Speaker 1: getting our colors done and what season we are, we
Speaker 1: completely have hyper fixated on it. We got the most
Speaker 1: amazing woman called Kim who has a business called Style Sense,
Speaker 1: to come in do our colors and talk not just
Speaker 1: about us, but more generally about what colors suit certain seasons.
Speaker 1: How you can work it out. It's such a cracker
Speaker 1: of an episode. We'll put a link in the show
Speaker 1: notes and will also put a link to a quiz
Speaker 1: that you can do to find out what color you are,
Speaker 1: what is your season? Share it? Tell us what season
Speaker 1: you are. I'm Autumn, not that you asked, Hollywood, are.
Speaker 2: You true spring light?
Speaker 3: Spring light?
Speaker 1: Sprea?
Speaker 3: I remember, and I'm a light Summer. I think light.
Speaker 1: So none of us are the same.
Speaker 3: Which is great because we can swap clothes.
Speaker 1: Now that's one thing that I really have.
Speaker 3: You you gave me. I got, Holly, I don't even
Speaker 3: know if you know this. I got like a bag for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, longer your color.
Speaker 3: Because she was impulsive. I think she would want them back,
Speaker 3: but it was just like, this isn't my color, this
Speaker 3: isn't my color, and so now I have them and
Speaker 3: I look great in them.
Speaker 2: She does a big thank you out loud as to
Speaker 2: all of you for listening to today's show. I'm very
Speaker 2: happy to be back with you, and a big thank
Speaker 2: you to all of our team who've been putting today's
Speaker 2: show together and all our shows this week. We will
Speaker 2: be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3: Bye bye.
Speaker 1: Do you want daily out loud access? Why wouldn't you?
Speaker 1: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively from mum
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