WEBVTT - The Cure For Burn-Out Is Cooked 0:00:10.287 --> 0:00:14.807 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mere acknowledges 0:00:14.847 --> 0:00:17.567 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.647 --> 0:00:22.367 is recorded on. For me, the first sign is always reading, 0:00:23.287 --> 0:00:27.247 as in I can't, which is awkward because reading and 0:00:27.287 --> 0:00:29.727 writing and reading and thinking and reading and talking is 0:00:29.767 --> 0:00:32.647 what I do who I am, so when I can't 0:00:32.687 --> 0:00:36.887 do it, I'm cut off from myself. For me, the 0:00:36.927 --> 0:00:40.207 inability to focus on anything longer than a SoundBite is 0:00:40.247 --> 0:00:43.167 the first sign of the disease of our post everything 0:00:43.207 --> 0:00:47.727 world burnout. That might not be the canary in your 0:00:47.767 --> 0:00:51.127 coal mine yours. Might be sleep that you can't or 0:00:51.167 --> 0:00:54.087 you can't stop, or that, however much you do, you 0:00:54.167 --> 0:00:57.727 can't seem to recharge, or eating that you can't or 0:00:57.727 --> 0:01:00.687 you can't stop. It might be headaches, the eye twitch 0:01:00.727 --> 0:01:03.727 that keeps showing up, a rash, a dizziness that spins 0:01:03.767 --> 0:01:05.887 you suddenly off balance as you step off the bus. 0:01:06.407 --> 0:01:09.247 It might be your mood, a shortness, a low grind 0:01:09.487 --> 0:01:13.367 of frustration, irritation shifting into a fury about how everything 0:01:13.527 --> 0:01:18.167 just doesn't quite ever so slightly work. Is it Perry 0:01:18.287 --> 0:01:19.007 or the big m? 0:01:19.167 --> 0:01:19.367 Yes? 0:01:19.487 --> 0:01:22.967 Probably? Is it something catastrophic come knocking to up end 0:01:23.047 --> 0:01:29.567 your life. Hopefully not hopefully, it's just burnout, just that 0:01:29.687 --> 0:01:34.487 crushing exhaustion and anxious flutter, just that inability to focus, 0:01:34.807 --> 0:01:39.647 to stop the endless fubbing and scrolling and incessant fritted multitasking, 0:01:40.767 --> 0:01:43.567 just the colds that keep showing up and never really leave, 0:01:43.927 --> 0:01:46.727 and just the gittering stress that keeps you in constant motion, 0:01:47.207 --> 0:01:50.607 all glued to your bed. They say burnout is the 0:01:50.647 --> 0:01:53.207 modern disease, and they know what the common cure is, 0:01:53.967 --> 0:01:59.207 slow down, dar But that's easier said, because rest isn't 0:01:59.247 --> 0:02:02.167 real when it's served with the relentless guilt of what 0:02:02.207 --> 0:02:05.327 you should be doing. At work, with the pinging and 0:02:05.367 --> 0:02:07.807 the dinging and the sorry to bother you. But at 0:02:07.807 --> 0:02:11.127 home with all the caring, the actual caring, the carrying 0:02:11.127 --> 0:02:14.007 and wiping and feeding and shopping and cooking, and the 0:02:14.047 --> 0:02:17.847 mental load of caring for anyone, a partner, a parent, 0:02:18.007 --> 0:02:21.847 a host of small people, sick, family, struggling friends, that 0:02:22.007 --> 0:02:25.167 scrolling mental list of what has to happen when, for who? 0:02:25.887 --> 0:02:30.047 How can all that just slow down? I'm asking, of course, 0:02:30.247 --> 0:02:35.927 for a friend. Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright and this is 0:02:36.007 --> 0:02:38.847 mid the show for Generation X Women who are anything 0:02:38.887 --> 0:02:43.927 but Today's mid guest is Catherine May. She's a writer. 0:02:44.487 --> 0:02:47.247 She wrote a book that so many people read during 0:02:47.247 --> 0:02:50.127 those smudgy days of lockdown that it became a massive 0:02:50.367 --> 0:02:55.287 global bestseller and stayed on. It's called Wintering, and she 0:02:55.407 --> 0:02:58.927 wrote it before the word COVID existed. It was all 0:02:58.967 --> 0:03:02.527 about her own experience of understanding a literal need to winter, 0:03:02.927 --> 0:03:06.407 to retreat, and that sometimes a winter can be forced 0:03:06.407 --> 0:03:10.527 on you by circumstance, like an illness or recovery, and 0:03:10.607 --> 0:03:14.207 sometimes it's a necessary period of time and rest and retreat, 0:03:14.607 --> 0:03:17.247 of pairing life back to the things that sustain us. 0:03:17.847 --> 0:03:21.687 And it's also about literal winter and embracing that special 0:03:21.767 --> 0:03:24.767 kind of shift it gives us, rather than only railing 0:03:24.807 --> 0:03:27.287 against it, waiting for summer to come back with a blast. 0:03:28.287 --> 0:03:30.407 Wintering is a beautiful book, and I'm one of many 0:03:30.487 --> 0:03:33.607 people who found it nourishing during a difficult moment. You'll 0:03:33.647 --> 0:03:36.047 hear my own professional gush about that at the beginning 0:03:36.087 --> 0:03:39.527 of our conversation, and please forgive me. But Catherine May 0:03:39.927 --> 0:03:43.287 is more than Wintering, of course. Her most recent book, Enchantment, 0:03:43.367 --> 0:03:46.327 is about finding beauty and awe in every day. She 0:03:46.367 --> 0:03:49.127 also has a podcast, A Substack is a parent and 0:03:49.167 --> 0:03:51.567 she lives in England by the Sea, which is where 0:03:51.607 --> 0:03:57.967 she was when I spoke to her about burnout. I 0:03:58.047 --> 0:04:01.287 listened to Wintering, actually, because one of my signs that 0:04:01.367 --> 0:04:04.447 things are going a bit lopsided for me is similar 0:04:04.487 --> 0:04:06.127 to one of yours. It's that I stopped being able 0:04:06.167 --> 0:04:06.567 to read. 0:04:06.847 --> 0:04:09.247 Yeah. 0:04:09.287 --> 0:04:13.687 Yes, And I had just moved two hours out of 0:04:13.687 --> 0:04:17.087 Sydney to the countryside, started anew much longed for but 0:04:17.167 --> 0:04:21.207 still quite discombobulating change. We went into lockdown. I'm sure 0:04:21.207 --> 0:04:23.807 you hear this story all the time, and I would 0:04:23.847 --> 0:04:28.207 listen to Wintering as I was walking our dog around 0:04:28.247 --> 0:04:31.447 this strange new place we'd moved to, and it was 0:04:31.487 --> 0:04:34.607 literally winter here in New South Wales at that time, 0:04:34.847 --> 0:04:38.767 and it was just so profoundly helpful to me. Catherine. 0:04:38.767 --> 0:04:41.207 So I know you must get this a lot, but 0:04:41.247 --> 0:04:45.367 I wanted to thank you for helping me reframe that 0:04:45.647 --> 0:04:49.447 time instead of thinking I've moved away from my friends, 0:04:49.527 --> 0:04:51.847 I'm lonely, I'm in this strange place. How do I 0:04:51.887 --> 0:04:54.847 recombobulate I'm not able to go out and do all 0:04:54.887 --> 0:04:59.127 the things I'd normally do. Wintering really helped me see 0:04:59.167 --> 0:05:03.287 it as a period of transition and important restoration. So 0:05:04.167 --> 0:05:04.807 thank you for that. 0:05:05.327 --> 0:05:07.607 Well, that makes me really happy to hear. I mean, 0:05:08.127 --> 0:05:11.847 I wrote it because I wanted to give that to 0:05:11.927 --> 0:05:15.127 people who it's delightful, but it's kind of worked. 0:05:16.647 --> 0:05:20.287 It definitely has. I've listened to Enchantment too. I actually 0:05:20.287 --> 0:05:22.807 think your books are wonderful for audiobooks, so thank you 0:05:22.847 --> 0:05:27.007 for that. Anyway, I wanted to talk about burnout because 0:05:27.007 --> 0:05:28.887 I think there is something that a lot of women 0:05:28.967 --> 0:05:31.727 listening to this show will be experiencing or have experienced, 0:05:31.727 --> 0:05:35.887 and in Enchantment, you right, that burnout is what happens 0:05:35.927 --> 0:05:39.927 when you repeatedly ignore your own needs. I'd love you 0:05:40.007 --> 0:05:41.447 to talk to me a little bit about that. 0:05:42.127 --> 0:05:45.047 I mean, I don't think it is necessarily a very 0:05:45.127 --> 0:05:48.727 modern phenomenon, but we are beginning to understand it as 0:05:48.727 --> 0:05:53.127 a pattern in the lives of people who are self 0:05:53.167 --> 0:05:58.127 identified as busy, let's say, which you know, is something 0:05:58.167 --> 0:06:00.167 that we have learned to put a lot of stock 0:06:00.247 --> 0:06:02.687 in this idea that we are so busy all the time, 0:06:02.687 --> 0:06:06.287 which means that we are in demand and needed, you know, 0:06:06.327 --> 0:06:08.447 which speaks to an anxiety of ours that we're not 0:06:08.487 --> 0:06:12.527 good enough. And what that busyness often does is it 0:06:12.527 --> 0:06:18.687 it urges us to not pay attention to really ordinary 0:06:18.727 --> 0:06:25.007 signs of tiredness and exhaustion and jadedness and unhappiness. You know, 0:06:25.087 --> 0:06:28.887 we squash those down because the busyness, on one hand 0:06:28.927 --> 0:06:31.647 tells us that they're not important, but it also stops 0:06:31.727 --> 0:06:34.047 us from feeling them. We're in such a rush that 0:06:34.087 --> 0:06:37.287 we kind of gloss over the top. And if you 0:06:37.407 --> 0:06:40.487 pair that with the messaging coming from the outside that 0:06:40.487 --> 0:06:44.247 that busyness is the right way to live what you've got, 0:06:44.247 --> 0:06:50.047 there is a kind of gaslighting of ourselves, which then 0:06:50.167 --> 0:06:54.567 means that the true exhaustion happens well after the time 0:06:54.607 --> 0:06:57.807 that we can really do anything about it. And I 0:06:57.807 --> 0:07:00.367 think that's what burnout is. It's this kind of combination 0:07:00.807 --> 0:07:05.527 of psychological and physical exhaustion that it's very hard to 0:07:06.247 --> 0:07:07.967 crawl back out of in a simple way. 0:07:08.367 --> 0:07:14.047 You've written about experiencing burnout several times in several different ways, 0:07:14.767 --> 0:07:18.607 and one of your symptoms I've read about is similar 0:07:18.607 --> 0:07:21.927 to mine, the fact that you're it's the inability to read, 0:07:22.687 --> 0:07:27.647 which is writers it's very awkward, deeply ashamed of that 0:07:27.727 --> 0:07:32.607 when it comes and you write about distraction too, about 0:07:33.087 --> 0:07:35.047 needing and wanting to go and sit down and work, 0:07:35.087 --> 0:07:37.287 but you write about how you sit at your desk 0:07:37.327 --> 0:07:39.647 and instead your frinner between Instagram and Twitter and the 0:07:39.687 --> 0:07:42.087 news and Twitter. And we've all been there as well. 0:07:43.607 --> 0:07:47.367 What have you learned about those sort of signs of 0:07:47.407 --> 0:07:50.647 that and what helps to bring you back in terms 0:07:50.647 --> 0:07:53.487 of your focus being so fractured. 0:07:54.087 --> 0:07:57.047 I think over the last few years, I've really learned 0:07:57.207 --> 0:08:01.607 to flip over what I think about those moments when 0:08:01.647 --> 0:08:04.527 my attention is really scattered and all over the place, 0:08:04.607 --> 0:08:08.167 because I used to see that as the cause of 0:08:08.207 --> 0:08:10.367 my suffering, and now I see it as a symptom. 0:08:10.967 --> 0:08:13.007 You know. I used to think that, oh, my attention 0:08:13.207 --> 0:08:16.607 isn't good enough, and therefore I'm unable to read, and 0:08:16.647 --> 0:08:19.167 therefore i'm you know, or I'm not getting enough out 0:08:19.167 --> 0:08:22.087 of life, or I'm not working hard enough. But actually 0:08:22.167 --> 0:08:24.847 what they are is often like an early signal that 0:08:24.887 --> 0:08:30.287 I'm very anxious or that I'm very overstretched. And when 0:08:30.287 --> 0:08:32.087 you start to read it like that, you know that 0:08:32.207 --> 0:08:35.687 flicking between Twitter and Instagram and the news and you know, 0:08:35.767 --> 0:08:39.447 all of these sources of information, you can begin to 0:08:39.607 --> 0:08:44.887 see them as reaching for safety, reaching for some kind 0:08:44.927 --> 0:08:49.007 of solid ground or something that tells you that everything's okay. 0:08:50.167 --> 0:08:53.647 And the problem with those media is that they're never 0:08:53.727 --> 0:08:55.847 going to tell you everything's okay because they're not set 0:08:55.927 --> 0:08:56.527 up to do that. 0:08:57.727 --> 0:09:01.047 Now, it's not good for their business model to tell 0:09:01.087 --> 0:09:02.247 you that everything's okay. 0:09:02.767 --> 0:09:05.927 It's very good for their business model to keep us 0:09:05.927 --> 0:09:09.607 in this constant state of checking, actually in wonder and 0:09:09.727 --> 0:09:15.607 feeling like there's no resolution to anything, and also feeling 0:09:15.727 --> 0:09:18.967 like our response isn't good enough, or getting into conflict 0:09:19.047 --> 0:09:21.927 over those things, and you know, getting into conflicts that 0:09:22.407 --> 0:09:24.327 are really none of our business because they're not about 0:09:24.327 --> 0:09:27.847 things we know anything about. But we're still absorbed in 0:09:27.887 --> 0:09:31.887 that act of conflict anyway. And so we're turning to 0:09:31.927 --> 0:09:35.727 anxiety machines in order to alleviate our anxiety. And it's 0:09:35.767 --> 0:09:40.807 no surprise that we're feeling correctly anxious under the circumstances. 0:09:39.767 --> 0:09:44.207 Absolutely, and that that's not going to work. So, with 0:09:44.247 --> 0:09:46.247 all that busyness, all the balls in the air, and 0:09:46.287 --> 0:09:49.207 our plates over flowing, how do we find the little 0:09:49.247 --> 0:09:51.807 bits of awe and rest in fact in the day 0:09:51.847 --> 0:09:57.967 to day? That's next, I think to a point in 0:09:58.007 --> 0:10:01.247 the culture, we've sort of internalized that we do know 0:10:01.287 --> 0:10:04.127 what the cure for this is, which is it's meant 0:10:04.127 --> 0:10:09.807 to be mindfulness, meditation, exercise, diet boundaries. But some of 0:10:09.847 --> 0:10:14.447 those things are just exceptionally hard to implement. And there's 0:10:14.487 --> 0:10:17.887 a moment in Enchantment where you were talking about your 0:10:17.927 --> 0:10:21.287 meditation process and how you've at times drifted away from it, 0:10:21.327 --> 0:10:25.167 and then suddenly you were like, maybe a man designed 0:10:27.607 --> 0:10:31.367 this process of me needing to take these two like 0:10:32.407 --> 0:10:34.927 time periods of time for me out of the day. 0:10:35.647 --> 0:10:36.567 Tell me about that. 0:10:37.207 --> 0:10:41.287 Yeah, yeah, I mean I learned to meditate, Oh goodness 0:10:41.327 --> 0:10:44.407 me about twenty years ago now, And it came up 0:10:44.527 --> 0:10:47.287 even then. You know that this man who was teaching 0:10:47.327 --> 0:10:50.727 a group of mainly women to meditate, had these very 0:10:50.847 --> 0:10:52.967 very firm rules about how it is done. You know, 0:10:53.007 --> 0:10:55.927 it must be twenty minutes twice a day. It must 0:10:56.007 --> 0:10:58.967 be before you've eaten in the morning, it must be 0:10:59.127 --> 0:11:01.287 every single day, blah blah blah, on and on and 0:11:01.327 --> 0:11:03.847 on and on. And a woman sitting next to me at the 0:11:03.887 --> 0:11:08.007 time said, you know, what does your wife do when 0:11:08.007 --> 0:11:10.367 you're doing all of this? You know who's looking after 0:11:10.407 --> 0:11:14.287 your children? And his response I think told me everything 0:11:14.367 --> 0:11:17.647 really at the time, which was, oh, she's really behind 0:11:17.727 --> 0:11:18.527 me meditating. 0:11:21.607 --> 0:11:22.567 I bet she is. 0:11:23.327 --> 0:11:26.687 She is. But you know, I think we do need 0:11:26.727 --> 0:11:30.567 to start really thinking about the solutions we're being offered, 0:11:30.647 --> 0:11:33.767 particularly the ones that are telling us that we don't 0:11:33.807 --> 0:11:38.007 have enough discipline or that we're not making enough time, 0:11:38.087 --> 0:11:42.727 because actually our sense of being overstretched is genuine. It's 0:11:42.967 --> 0:11:45.927 not some kind of thing that we've confected. And if 0:11:45.927 --> 0:11:50.287 only we organized ourselves more, we'll do it better. And 0:11:50.367 --> 0:11:52.687 I don't think that's ever more clear than in the 0:11:52.727 --> 0:11:55.567 case of people who are caring for somebody else, which 0:11:55.687 --> 0:11:58.847 so many of us are. We don't get to map 0:11:58.887 --> 0:12:01.327 our days out like that because actually our lives are 0:12:01.327 --> 0:12:05.327 more about responding to the needs of somebody else, and 0:12:05.767 --> 0:12:08.167 that's a good thing, right. We need to be able 0:12:08.207 --> 0:12:11.007 to do that with an our society, But we also 0:12:11.047 --> 0:12:13.327 need to be able to have a different conversation about 0:12:13.367 --> 0:12:16.967 what a kind of a life of contemplation or a 0:12:16.967 --> 0:12:21.647 life with a spiritual dimension is, because we can't just 0:12:21.767 --> 0:12:25.687 step away from those roles in order to you know, 0:12:25.807 --> 0:12:29.087 take a two week you know, meditation. Really, it just 0:12:29.367 --> 0:12:33.647 isn't possible it's not a mindset issue, and therefore we 0:12:33.727 --> 0:12:37.687 need to start to acknowledge the spiritual life or the 0:12:37.727 --> 0:12:41.487 contemplative life, or the reflective life that's found in everyday life, 0:12:41.567 --> 0:12:44.527 because it is there. It's just not honored enough in 0:12:44.567 --> 0:12:45.127 our culture. 0:12:45.407 --> 0:12:48.807 And you right about finding a lot of that in 0:12:48.927 --> 0:12:52.127 nature as many as many of us do and walking, 0:12:53.087 --> 0:12:57.567 do you have to work to find the awe in 0:12:57.807 --> 0:13:00.327 every day that's going to reset you? Or is there 0:13:00.367 --> 0:13:02.407 like a listen to me, I sound like I'm asking 0:13:02.447 --> 0:13:06.207 you for hacks, like, but is there which is? Which 0:13:06.247 --> 0:13:08.007 is the antithesis of what we're talking about? 0:13:08.047 --> 0:13:08.247 Really? 0:13:08.287 --> 0:13:11.207 But is it almost become a practice in itself to 0:13:11.287 --> 0:13:15.247 learn to find those moments throughout the day, in everyday 0:13:15.247 --> 0:13:18.807 life rather than this, Okay, I'm blocking out. You know, 0:13:18.847 --> 0:13:21.167 I've just done school drop off. Now I've got twenty minutes. 0:13:21.367 --> 0:13:24.407 You know, I love you? Yeah, why are you how 0:13:24.527 --> 0:13:26.207 I argue you feed it in? 0:13:26.527 --> 0:13:29.647 Yeah? I am resistant to hacks and that's really because 0:13:29.687 --> 0:13:33.967 I was always looking for hacks until quite recently in 0:13:34.007 --> 0:13:37.047 my life, you know, and they always left me feeling 0:13:37.087 --> 0:13:41.807 really beref because there is no shortcut to looking after 0:13:41.847 --> 0:13:44.127 your engagement over the long term. You know, there's no 0:13:44.327 --> 0:13:46.927 one simple trick that you can click through to on 0:13:46.967 --> 0:13:50.727 the internet that will solve this for you forever. In 0:13:50.767 --> 0:13:54.167 many cases, it's about lowering your expectation of what you're 0:13:54.207 --> 0:13:57.767 going to get from these moments and allowing yourself to 0:13:57.887 --> 0:14:04.207 have many small experiences rather than one big, expensive, costly 0:14:04.687 --> 0:14:10.087 chance for lifetime experience. And it's also about the very boring, 0:14:10.127 --> 0:14:15.447 which is repetition and iteration, right, and keeping returning, and 0:14:16.007 --> 0:14:18.087 as part of that like failing all the time too, 0:14:18.247 --> 0:14:21.887 you know, constantly dropping off that wagon because things get 0:14:21.967 --> 0:14:23.927 busy and you've got a sick child at home, or 0:14:23.967 --> 0:14:26.887 you've got you know, an elderly parent who's demanding something 0:14:26.967 --> 0:14:34.007 for you, going back again to getting outside after that, repeat, repeat, repeat, 0:14:34.247 --> 0:14:37.607 For me, that is the very boring piece of advice 0:14:37.647 --> 0:14:39.327 that we don't want to hear, but it is the 0:14:39.327 --> 0:14:41.807 one that works. You know, it's going to it as 0:14:41.807 --> 0:14:42.487 a human being. 0:14:43.447 --> 0:14:47.887 It's interesting because you also have spoken about how back 0:14:47.927 --> 0:14:50.767 to the point about how busyness is almost a status, 0:14:50.807 --> 0:14:56.167 simple high status in our society. That rest is crucial, 0:14:56.807 --> 0:14:59.567 but rest is not the same as doing nothing. You say, yeah, 0:15:00.167 --> 0:15:03.047 this was very pertinent during COVID and people were advised 0:15:03.247 --> 0:15:04.687 to get over it. All those things. You've got a 0:15:04.727 --> 0:15:07.327 rest and people all be like, what's rest? Like I'm 0:15:07.407 --> 0:15:10.367 lying in bed, I'm watching TV on my phone in bed, 0:15:10.647 --> 0:15:12.407 you know, Like it's that kind of thing. And what 0:15:12.527 --> 0:15:15.007 have we learned about that kind of restoration? Do you think? 0:15:15.127 --> 0:15:18.127 Yeah? Because I see rest as a change in action. 0:15:18.767 --> 0:15:20.647 I'm very bad at the kind of rest that is 0:15:20.687 --> 0:15:23.607 simply sitting still, like I just I've never been able 0:15:23.647 --> 0:15:27.087 to do it, and I still can't. But what I 0:15:27.207 --> 0:15:30.847 find RESTful instead, just to give an example, is to 0:15:31.247 --> 0:15:34.647 go into my kitchen and cook something that's like a 0:15:34.767 --> 0:15:36.967 very long process, you know, Like I talk a lot 0:15:36.967 --> 0:15:39.207 of that. I love I love pickling things. It's just 0:15:39.207 --> 0:15:42.447 this sort of weird fetish that my entire family seems 0:15:42.447 --> 0:15:45.007 to have. But what I love about that is it's 0:15:45.087 --> 0:15:48.687 not hard, it's not challenging, but it is slow. So 0:15:48.767 --> 0:15:50.407 you know, you have to chop everything up and you 0:15:50.447 --> 0:15:52.527 have to wait for the pot to boil, and you 0:15:52.527 --> 0:15:55.687 have to give it some patience. And while my hands 0:15:55.687 --> 0:15:59.647 are moving, my intention can kind of roam around a bit, 0:15:59.727 --> 0:16:02.167 and I can think, I certainly can't have my phone 0:16:02.207 --> 0:16:04.887 in my hand at that point. I mean, that's just 0:16:04.927 --> 0:16:08.767 one example, but I do think we need to reconceptualize 0:16:08.807 --> 0:16:11.807 rest and to take it away from this idea, this 0:16:12.047 --> 0:16:14.927 link with me between rest and laziness. You know, rest 0:16:15.047 --> 0:16:18.927 is this essential part of restoring us back to equilibrium, 0:16:18.927 --> 0:16:23.367 and if we skip that step then we probably are 0:16:23.447 --> 0:16:27.407 doing ourselves harm. But equally, if we only see rest 0:16:27.527 --> 0:16:30.527 as sitting watching the TV, I just don't think that's 0:16:30.607 --> 0:16:32.487 very appealing to loads of us. I don't think we 0:16:32.567 --> 0:16:35.567 can rest like that, and it might not even be 0:16:35.687 --> 0:16:38.327 RESTful because it's not really restoring anything in us. 0:16:38.887 --> 0:16:44.007 This explains why I have become a midlife gardener and 0:16:44.087 --> 0:16:46.567 I have a veggiebed, and I get teased a lot 0:16:46.727 --> 0:16:49.727 by all my call journalist pals in the city for 0:16:49.807 --> 0:16:53.047 my gardening. They're like, no, really, Holly, tell us more 0:16:53.047 --> 0:16:59.327 about your zucchinis and your tomatoes. But I've found, possibly 0:16:59.487 --> 0:17:01.687 like you, is that I'm not very good at sitting 0:17:01.727 --> 0:17:06.047 down and doing nothing either, But I feel just remarkably 0:17:06.087 --> 0:17:09.367 reinvigorated after I've spent some time with my hands and 0:17:09.407 --> 0:17:12.487 the soil. It is absolutely owe to me to see 0:17:12.967 --> 0:17:16.167 a seed turn into a seedling, turn into a front 0:17:16.247 --> 0:17:20.647 turn into a plant, like that's it's become. I don't know, 0:17:21.007 --> 0:17:23.447 maybe that's sort of my kind of meditation in a way. 0:17:23.687 --> 0:17:27.647 Yeah, yeah, that's right. And it's it's this process that 0:17:27.687 --> 0:17:30.607 pulls you back. I mean, presumably nearly every day you 0:17:30.647 --> 0:17:32.447 have to. If you're growing veges, you really do have 0:17:32.527 --> 0:17:34.447 to keep checking back in on them, don't you. And 0:17:35.007 --> 0:17:37.687 I'm a really rubbish gardener. Actually, I feel like I 0:17:37.687 --> 0:17:40.207 should be better at it, but I think I probably 0:17:40.247 --> 0:17:43.927 travel too much and I neglect everything. But I have 0:17:44.047 --> 0:17:46.567 got that from owning a dog. You know, having been 0:17:46.567 --> 0:17:49.247 a committed cat person all my life, we got a 0:17:49.287 --> 0:17:52.567 dog because we saw this poor put that needed rescuing 0:17:52.607 --> 0:17:55.687 and we couldn't resist. And you know, you have to 0:17:55.727 --> 0:17:59.447 walk her every day, Like that's some basic contract you 0:17:59.487 --> 0:18:03.407 make with your dog. And that's that's actually brilliant because 0:18:03.607 --> 0:18:06.127 it made me realize the number of times I actually, 0:18:06.647 --> 0:18:10.287 despite knowing I love walking, would not have walked. I'd 0:18:10.327 --> 0:18:12.607 have let something else take over. I'd I said, oh no, 0:18:13.167 --> 0:18:14.767 I've got to do this this morning. I won't do 0:18:14.847 --> 0:18:17.487 that for myself, but I will always do it for 0:18:17.567 --> 0:18:19.207 the dog. I have to do it for the dog 0:18:19.207 --> 0:18:20.487 that she gets really fed up with me. 0:18:21.887 --> 0:18:24.367 Yeah, same in our house. It's it's it's sort of 0:18:24.407 --> 0:18:28.927 sacred time talking. I wanted to ask because your reference 0:18:28.967 --> 0:18:32.287 there that you're traveling a lot, and I think that 0:18:32.407 --> 0:18:36.807 one of the things that people think about burnout and 0:18:36.847 --> 0:18:39.887 reset and looking after yourself is that, well, life goes 0:18:39.927 --> 0:18:43.207 on and demands things of us, and certainly for you. 0:18:43.207 --> 0:18:45.687 You know, you are a best selling author. I'm sure 0:18:45.687 --> 0:18:48.767 that you are invited to do a lot of festivals 0:18:48.767 --> 0:18:51.247 and tours, and you know, it's not like you can 0:18:51.327 --> 0:18:54.447 just turn off and retreat and winter. You know, what 0:18:54.567 --> 0:18:58.567 have you learned about how to sort of ride that 0:18:58.687 --> 0:19:02.047 wave of opportunity of doing something you love, which I 0:19:02.087 --> 0:19:05.007 assume that you do, you know, work around your books 0:19:05.047 --> 0:19:08.327 and your podcast and your newsletter and not letting burn 0:19:08.367 --> 0:19:09.207 out overwhelm you. 0:19:09.847 --> 0:19:13.487 Yeah. I have to actually be quite firm with myself 0:19:13.767 --> 0:19:17.007 and say no to stuff, which is honestly, as an author, 0:19:17.047 --> 0:19:20.607 it's really hard. I mean, I have been writing since 0:19:20.647 --> 0:19:24.887 my mid twenties. I'm now forty six, she says, counting 0:19:24.887 --> 0:19:30.087 a frantically. And you know, like I've spent many years 0:19:30.367 --> 0:19:34.407 with very few opportunities to get my work out there, 0:19:35.247 --> 0:19:38.127 and now I have an abundance of it, and I 0:19:38.287 --> 0:19:40.887 really do have to be very selective about what I do. 0:19:42.207 --> 0:19:46.127 And that means for me because my busiest time is 0:19:46.167 --> 0:19:48.967 over the winter in the UK, so not your winter, 0:19:49.087 --> 0:19:51.607 like you kind of catch me at the other end 0:19:52.127 --> 0:19:53.247 of the seasons. 0:19:54.047 --> 0:19:57.607 But we're just heading into winter. 0:19:57.767 --> 0:20:00.807 Yeah that's right. Yeah, and we're just the days are 0:20:00.847 --> 0:20:03.327 just warming up for us finally after a very long time. 0:20:03.727 --> 0:20:05.447 But you know, like I now have a lot of 0:20:05.447 --> 0:20:07.847 demand on my time over winter. Everybody wants to talk 0:20:07.887 --> 0:20:10.607 to me every suddenly. Members I exist a round about 0:20:10.647 --> 0:20:13.007 late September, and I just see this huge arctic in 0:20:13.047 --> 0:20:18.727 my own box. And still and every year I say 0:20:18.727 --> 0:20:20.927 to my system, it's fine, it's a few years after 0:20:20.967 --> 0:20:23.087 the book's release now, and they won't happen this year. 0:20:23.167 --> 0:20:26.207 It does, so you know, I do all I can 0:20:26.367 --> 0:20:30.847 during that time. But what I won't do is books 0:20:30.967 --> 0:20:34.167 several days of events back to back. I keep too 0:20:34.367 --> 0:20:37.167 clear days a week in my calendar all year round 0:20:37.247 --> 0:20:42.207 because I need that I can't continually output, and over 0:20:42.247 --> 0:20:45.247 the summer I don't book anything. So July and August, 0:20:45.487 --> 0:20:48.407 you will not get yourself into my calendar unless you 0:20:48.487 --> 0:20:52.327 make me a really tempting offer because I need that break. 0:20:52.367 --> 0:20:56.047 I need that fire break actually, and I think yes, 0:20:56.407 --> 0:21:00.807 for creative people, that's a really important thing to think about, 0:21:00.927 --> 0:21:03.807 is how is the sort of balancing outputting and inputting. 0:21:04.527 --> 0:21:07.367 The temptation is to sort of always output because that 0:21:07.567 --> 0:21:11.687 seems productive, that seems like visibly productive from the outside. 0:21:12.407 --> 0:21:16.127 But in order to make my work, I need quiet time, 0:21:16.207 --> 0:21:19.487 I need reading, I need thinking, and I need to 0:21:19.647 --> 0:21:22.887 not be hearing stuff from the outside. I need to 0:21:22.927 --> 0:21:26.407 go inwards. I've learned to really assert that time doesn't 0:21:26.407 --> 0:21:27.967 make me popular with everyone all the time. 0:21:30.727 --> 0:21:33.247 So if we all understand in theory how important it 0:21:33.287 --> 0:21:35.607 is to rest and recharge, why does it still come 0:21:35.727 --> 0:21:38.047 with a big serve of guilt. How do you stop 0:21:38.087 --> 0:21:42.447 yourself feeling guilty about doing well, nothing or close to nothing. 0:21:43.247 --> 0:21:49.967 That's what we're going to talk about next. I think 0:21:49.967 --> 0:21:52.127 that a lot of women, particularly in middle life, feel 0:21:52.127 --> 0:21:56.247 guilty about not maximizing every moment and squeezing every bit 0:21:56.247 --> 0:22:00.087 of productivity out of the day. So we've talked about rest, 0:22:00.167 --> 0:22:02.367 but how do you deal with the guilt that might 0:22:02.727 --> 0:22:05.727 come alongside that. What have you learned about turning that off? 0:22:05.967 --> 0:22:07.647 Have you had to grapple with that yourself. 0:22:08.367 --> 0:22:10.487 Yeah, I grapple with all the time. And you know, 0:22:10.527 --> 0:22:13.007 the guilt is real and it's not easily solved, and 0:22:13.087 --> 0:22:17.407 there's not much messaging that will ever tell you that 0:22:17.767 --> 0:22:21.847 you shouldn't feel guilty if you're needing resources instead of 0:22:22.167 --> 0:22:26.607 generating resources. What I would say that the technique that 0:22:26.607 --> 0:22:30.967 I've been trying to use for years now is to 0:22:32.287 --> 0:22:37.087 acknowledge that needing other people and to keep noticing and 0:22:37.367 --> 0:22:41.407 to keep trying to accept the need to rest in 0:22:41.487 --> 0:22:46.967 other people, and therefore to then not see myself as 0:22:46.967 --> 0:22:51.607 an exception to that rule. It's not easy, though, I mean, 0:22:51.647 --> 0:22:55.807 I think, you know, we do have this desire to 0:22:55.927 --> 0:23:00.807 be productive and to be generating. The care is what 0:23:00.807 --> 0:23:03.687 puts us at the top of the pile, right, It's 0:23:03.727 --> 0:23:06.607 almost a power move. It's no surprise that we feel 0:23:06.607 --> 0:23:10.127 guilty and mid you know, the conversations that we have 0:23:10.967 --> 0:23:14.007