WEBVTT - The Most Surprising Relationship Red Flag 0:00:08.234 --> 0:00:10.953 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:16.194 --> 0:00:18.834 Hello and welcome to Mom and Mia out Loud. It's 0:00:18.834 --> 0:00:21.714 what women are actually talking about on Monday, the eighth 0:00:21.754 --> 0:00:22.434 of December. 0:00:22.514 --> 0:00:25.034 I'm Holly wayIn Wright, I'm Amelia Laster and. 0:00:25.034 --> 0:00:26.074 I'm Jesse Stephens. 0:00:26.234 --> 0:00:30.514 And here's what's on our agenda for today. Why Australian 0:00:30.554 --> 0:00:34.194 women are still obsessed with Oprah Winfrey at least if 0:00:34.234 --> 0:00:37.114 my social media feed from the weekend is anything to 0:00:37.114 --> 0:00:37.714 be believed. 0:00:38.114 --> 0:00:40.553 Plus, this is the week, this is the week that 0:00:40.593 --> 0:00:44.354 the social media band takes effect. Why do I suddenly 0:00:44.434 --> 0:00:45.953 have complicated feelings about it? 0:00:46.513 --> 0:00:50.913 And apparently Travis Kelcey confessed to a giant red flag 0:00:51.034 --> 0:00:54.754 in his relationship with Taylor Swift And I'm not so convinced. 0:00:55.434 --> 0:00:58.794 But first, Jesse Stevens, in case you missed it, it's 0:00:58.794 --> 0:01:02.273 the time of the year. Wherefore about eleven seconds, a 0:01:02.354 --> 0:01:05.834 dictionary and a design service become surprisingly relevant. They have 0:01:05.874 --> 0:01:07.914 their moment in the sun, we all make a fuss 0:01:07.914 --> 0:01:11.393 and forget about them for twelve months. The Oxford Dictionary 0:01:11.394 --> 0:01:13.673 has declared that their word of the year for twenty 0:01:13.794 --> 0:01:16.154 twenty five is rage bait. 0:01:16.074 --> 0:01:17.994 Which is interesting because I thought that was two words. 0:01:18.154 --> 0:01:19.914 Yes, well last year was brain rot. 0:01:19.994 --> 0:01:21.754 It's true also two words. 0:01:22.034 --> 0:01:24.634 There are allegations that this is a classic example of 0:01:24.714 --> 0:01:27.634 rage bait, given they've broken their own rules. 0:01:28.034 --> 0:01:28.994 That's so true. 0:01:29.314 --> 0:01:31.874 You can't upset the dictionary people like know your audience. 0:01:32.034 --> 0:01:35.393 The dictionary people are really annoyed. But use of the term, 0:01:35.554 --> 0:01:37.874 let's call it a term has tripled in the last 0:01:37.914 --> 0:01:42.594 twelve months, and the president of Oxford Languages says that 0:01:42.634 --> 0:01:45.034 the term brain rot from last year and rage bait 0:01:45.074 --> 0:01:47.834 from this year, they sort of reveal how the digital 0:01:47.834 --> 0:01:52.394 world are reshaping how we think and more generally, our behavior. 0:01:52.754 --> 0:01:55.674 The Internet used to work on curiosity gaps, used to 0:01:55.754 --> 0:01:59.034 work on what we call clickbait, right, and now it's 0:01:59.074 --> 0:02:02.034 all about baiting people with the strongest emotion that they 0:02:02.034 --> 0:02:05.994 can possibly generate, which is rage. Do you think this 0:02:06.154 --> 0:02:07.874 was the year of rage bait? 0:02:08.514 --> 0:02:11.514 I don't think the human race is okay. Brain rot 0:02:11.594 --> 0:02:14.514 last year, rage bait this year. I do think it 0:02:14.594 --> 0:02:17.914 shows that we're getting more sophisticated in our understanding of 0:02:17.954 --> 0:02:19.754 what the internet is doing to us. 0:02:19.994 --> 0:02:23.874 Yes, yeah, And I like that it's not meme terms. 0:02:23.954 --> 0:02:26.914 Like for a while it was kind of these ridiculous, 0:02:26.954 --> 0:02:29.314 not like skibbety toilet like that kind of stuff that 0:02:29.354 --> 0:02:29.634 you go. 0:02:29.594 --> 0:02:30.954 Through boat face. 0:02:31.234 --> 0:02:33.474 Yeah, so for five seconds, maybe that's a meme. But 0:02:33.514 --> 0:02:36.034 I think that these terms, as you say, describe a 0:02:36.074 --> 0:02:38.073 real phenomenon, so I have more respect for them. 0:02:38.154 --> 0:02:41.514 Yeah, I think they speak to our increasing literacy. Right 0:02:41.594 --> 0:02:44.594 to your point about us becoming more sophisticated, is that 0:02:44.674 --> 0:02:48.194 hopefully by elevating and amplifying the term rage bait, we're 0:02:48.194 --> 0:02:50.594 better at spotting it and that would be a good thing. 0:02:50.874 --> 0:02:53.954 Yes, And we saw it like used in advertising this year. 0:02:54.034 --> 0:02:58.194 Remember we talked about the Elf ad that awful matt Rice, 0:02:58.674 --> 0:03:01.554 who they knew their audience didn't like because he'd made 0:03:01.594 --> 0:03:03.954 a really off color domestic violence joke and they threw 0:03:04.034 --> 0:03:06.234 him in the ad blew up. The other one was 0:03:06.274 --> 0:03:07.794 the American Eagle, and there. 0:03:07.714 --> 0:03:11.434 Was just maybe you could argue the pubic hair, mercant. 0:03:11.514 --> 0:03:12.394 Skin rage bait. 0:03:12.434 --> 0:03:15.914 There are some very good rage bait marketing techniques now. 0:03:15.954 --> 0:03:19.314 But I've noticed in my group chats that the rage 0:03:19.314 --> 0:03:23.314 bait cycle has abated a little bit. So for instance, 0:03:23.354 --> 0:03:26.634 I used to have one group chat where we would 0:03:26.674 --> 0:03:28.634 just send each other links that we knew would get 0:03:28.634 --> 0:03:31.474 each other worked up about politics. It was called rage 0:03:31.474 --> 0:03:35.474 bit and now that's thread. We've decided that we're not 0:03:35.514 --> 0:03:37.354 going to do that anymore. And I think there is 0:03:37.394 --> 0:03:40.194 a power in naming it and then recognizing, oh, all 0:03:40.194 --> 0:03:41.314 I'm doing is rage baiting. 0:03:41.474 --> 0:03:44.914 I'm being played. And that actually brings us to the 0:03:44.914 --> 0:03:49.194 color of the year, right, which is kill me. Pantone, 0:03:49.194 --> 0:03:52.394 which is a printing business, they declare every year their color. 0:03:52.434 --> 0:03:54.514 Who can remember the color of twenty twenty five? 0:03:54.594 --> 0:03:55.794 No, I'm obsessed with the colors. 0:03:55.834 --> 0:04:00.874 It was brown, it's round, and I reckon, spot on, 0:04:01.154 --> 0:04:03.314 I reckon, they nailed it. I saw a lot of 0:04:03.394 --> 0:04:07.274 macka moose this year. The color of twenty twenty six 0:04:07.514 --> 0:04:14.074 is white, specifically Cloud Dancer, which is described as a 0:04:14.114 --> 0:04:17.354 lofty white that serves as a symbol of calming influence 0:04:17.674 --> 0:04:21.594 in a society rediscovering the value of quiet reflection. So 0:04:21.873 --> 0:04:23.753 what does the color of the year mean. It means 0:04:23.753 --> 0:04:25.434 that we're going to be wearing it. It means it's 0:04:25.433 --> 0:04:27.313 going to be the brand palette of a lot of 0:04:27.393 --> 0:04:30.433 different places. It means celebrities and red carpets. It means 0:04:30.633 --> 0:04:33.033 the color of your interiors. We're going to be seeing 0:04:33.073 --> 0:04:36.553 it everywhere. I want to know if you are rage 0:04:36.594 --> 0:04:40.553 baited that white is technically a shade, not a color. 0:04:41.834 --> 0:04:45.674 I'm raged baited just by the whole idea because A 0:04:45.953 --> 0:04:48.674 I can't wear white, so I feel like excluded. I 0:04:48.674 --> 0:04:51.753 feel excluded in every way, like I can't wear white 0:04:51.753 --> 0:04:54.513 because of my coloring, but I also just can't wear white. 0:04:54.674 --> 0:04:55.073 I can't. 0:04:56.354 --> 0:04:57.193 Yes, Yes, if. 0:04:57.113 --> 0:04:59.753 I was wearing what Amelia was wearing now, I would 0:04:59.753 --> 0:05:01.753 have spilt something down it, even if there was nothing 0:05:02.234 --> 0:05:04.553 near me. Yesterday, you know, I was influenced by you, Jesse, 0:05:04.633 --> 0:05:06.873 And over the weekend I bought one of those stripe 0:05:06.873 --> 0:05:10.393 tea yeah, you know, the viral strapergy shirts, and mine 0:05:10.474 --> 0:05:14.714 is navy with like a yellow stripe. Was literally wearing 0:05:14.794 --> 0:05:16.954 it for five minutes coffee down at all the yellow 0:05:16.993 --> 0:05:17.993 stripes covered in coffee. 0:05:18.034 --> 0:05:18.994 That shirt is dead to me. 0:05:18.993 --> 0:05:21.233 Now and I'm a properly grown woman and I still 0:05:21.274 --> 0:05:22.313 can't wear white now. 0:05:22.354 --> 0:05:24.394 All this means is that bibbs are back, bibs are 0:05:24.393 --> 0:05:25.953 gonna be bibs. 0:05:26.034 --> 0:05:30.714 I love that. Or like a really enriching cultural conversation 0:05:30.993 --> 0:05:34.234 about stain removal, like how to get things out of 0:05:34.794 --> 0:05:37.034 your clothes. Apparently. I did read an article that said, 0:05:37.553 --> 0:05:39.753 on Christmas Day, we're all wearing white. 0:05:40.193 --> 0:05:41.113 I'm not Amelia. 0:05:41.274 --> 0:05:42.954 There's been a lot of controversy over this. 0:05:43.034 --> 0:05:45.553 I love pantone color of the year, obsessed with it, 0:05:45.674 --> 0:05:48.433 generally by a pair of slippers in whatever color it 0:05:48.474 --> 0:05:50.794 is to set a tone for the year ahead. There 0:05:50.834 --> 0:05:53.034 hasn't been this much controversy with the color of the 0:05:53.113 --> 0:05:55.794 year since twenty twenty one, when they named two colors. 0:05:55.794 --> 0:05:57.993 Do you remember that they named gray and yellow and 0:05:58.034 --> 0:05:59.553 everyone said, hang on, it's meant to. 0:05:59.474 --> 0:06:00.513 Be color of the year. 0:06:01.234 --> 0:06:03.634 But people are saying that they're quite tone deaf, or 0:06:03.674 --> 0:06:06.954 they're calling them pantone deaf. I'm sorry, I didn't make 0:06:07.313 --> 0:06:09.273 up and it did take me in an alarmingly long 0:06:09.313 --> 0:06:11.393 time to get that joke, so I'll repeat it again, 0:06:11.714 --> 0:06:14.354 pan tone death. Some people are saying that the color 0:06:14.393 --> 0:06:17.553 evokes white supremacy at a time when right wing parties 0:06:17.553 --> 0:06:19.914 are on the rise around the world. Others are saying 0:06:19.914 --> 0:06:22.873 it's a recession indicator because we can't afford color anymore. 0:06:23.313 --> 0:06:26.914 Oh my goodness, No, because wearing white is a rich 0:06:26.953 --> 0:06:29.794 person's game. Everybody knows that it means that you can 0:06:29.834 --> 0:06:33.514 afford to have your clothes professionally cleaned and your sheets 0:06:33.834 --> 0:06:36.993 professionally cleaned. Rich people wear white a lot. Jerry halliwell 0:06:37.073 --> 0:06:40.513 only wears white and she's married to one of those richefwondu. Yeah, 0:06:40.553 --> 0:06:42.354 can you remind me what the name of it is again? 0:06:42.393 --> 0:06:42.713 Please? 0:06:42.914 --> 0:06:44.273 It is cooler. 0:06:45.714 --> 0:06:47.313 Did not have to refer to notes. 0:06:47.594 --> 0:06:49.474 I believe it is a cool white rather than a 0:06:49.474 --> 0:06:49.954 warm white. 0:06:49.993 --> 0:06:51.594 It is one of my favorite things to do is 0:06:51.633 --> 0:06:53.233 in Bunnings, is to go and look at the paint 0:06:53.234 --> 0:06:55.113 wall and look at all the shades of white and 0:06:55.154 --> 0:06:57.993 try and boggle my brain about their minuscule differences. 0:06:58.073 --> 0:06:59.794 And if you've ever shot for a wedding dress, you 0:06:59.834 --> 0:07:02.234 do know that there are actually which you haven't hold 0:07:02.234 --> 0:07:05.234 is sorry, but there are multiple. 0:07:07.193 --> 0:07:08.314 Get married because you knew that. 0:07:08.313 --> 0:07:11.713 Why it wasn't Mum says, why it's not a color? 0:07:11.754 --> 0:07:12.354 She wore gold? 0:07:12.594 --> 0:07:14.914 No very nice? Of course she did go on steep. 0:07:16.754 --> 0:07:19.954 The world is watching Australia this week because on Wednesday, 0:07:20.194 --> 0:07:23.554 the social media ban finally comes into effect. Now, if 0:07:23.554 --> 0:07:25.393 you're anything like me, I feel like this has been 0:07:25.393 --> 0:07:28.754 coming for such a long time, and this Wednesday here, this. 0:07:29.074 --> 0:07:31.874 Wednesday, like Christmas for some of us friends. 0:07:32.434 --> 0:07:34.194 Now the Quikie has your covered on the nuts and 0:07:34.194 --> 0:07:36.354 bolts of what is happening, and there are a lot 0:07:36.393 --> 0:07:37.994 of nuts and bolts in terms of how this is 0:07:38.034 --> 0:07:41.114 going to be implemented. They also have an interview with 0:07:41.194 --> 0:07:44.354 the teenagers who are challenging this ban in the High Court. 0:07:44.674 --> 0:07:46.833 You can hear that on the QUICKI tomorrow. But I 0:07:46.914 --> 0:07:49.674 wanted to check in on how we're all feeling. 0:07:49.354 --> 0:07:51.234 About it, because I've been on a bit of a 0:07:51.474 --> 0:07:54.754 roller coaster of emotions about this ban. At first, I 0:07:54.834 --> 0:07:57.794 felt real unbridled joy and pride in the fact that 0:07:57.874 --> 0:08:00.234 Australia is really leading the world in this, and other 0:08:00.274 --> 0:08:04.434 countries Malaysia, Indonesia, France, Denmark, they're all considering doing exactly 0:08:04.434 --> 0:08:07.434 the same thing. Chris Pratt, he has a movie he's 0:08:07.474 --> 0:08:09.634 been talking about how great he thinks the social media 0:08:09.674 --> 0:08:12.274 ban is. You know, the world is looking at us 0:08:12.314 --> 0:08:14.754 and is cheering us on in large parts of it. 0:08:15.234 --> 0:08:18.274 But in the last i'd say the last couple of weeks, 0:08:18.554 --> 0:08:21.833 I've started to hear some arguments that have given me 0:08:21.914 --> 0:08:26.034 pause about this ban. One of them came from the 0:08:26.074 --> 0:08:27.913 Sidney Monty Herald newspaper which. 0:08:27.754 --> 0:08:32.873 Reported today that a full two thirds. 0:08:33.154 --> 0:08:36.914 Of parents are going to find ways to get around 0:08:36.914 --> 0:08:40.634 this ban. And I hadn't even considered that there were 0:08:40.714 --> 0:08:43.034 ways to get around the band, But of course Holly's 0:08:43.074 --> 0:08:46.194 been implying to me that there are many loopholes and 0:08:46.274 --> 0:08:48.234 many ways in which parents are just going to say, 0:08:48.314 --> 0:08:51.154 I can't fight this fight with my teenager, I can't 0:08:51.194 --> 0:08:53.834 pull an addict away from something, and. 0:08:53.754 --> 0:08:54.754 Look, I should say that. 0:08:54.834 --> 0:08:57.674 Albow, in response to this kind of criticism, says, it 0:08:57.714 --> 0:08:59.874 was never meant to be perfectly enforced. It was meant 0:08:59.914 --> 0:09:02.314 to start conversations, and it was meant to change a 0:09:02.394 --> 0:09:05.114 social norm over time. But it does kind of make 0:09:05.154 --> 0:09:08.594 me think that it's being undermined little bit by parents. Holly, 0:09:08.914 --> 0:09:10.554 what do you think? You know? 0:09:10.634 --> 0:09:13.474 I've been dying to talk about this every episode. I'm like, 0:09:13.554 --> 0:09:14.834 can we talk about it yet? 0:09:15.634 --> 0:09:16.194 Like stop it? 0:09:16.754 --> 0:09:19.194 Just full disclosure, because if you are a regular out louder, 0:09:19.234 --> 0:09:21.754 you would have heard my voice last week reading some 0:09:21.914 --> 0:09:25.594 ads from the federal government about the social media delay 0:09:25.594 --> 0:09:28.274 as they calling it, and I agreed to do those 0:09:28.314 --> 0:09:30.914 because I am a supporter. Like full disclosure, I think 0:09:30.914 --> 0:09:34.394 it's great, but I think it's complicated, and I think 0:09:34.434 --> 0:09:39.034 we have to be really mindful in the next few weeks, months, 0:09:39.034 --> 0:09:42.714 whatever of where the criticisms about this are coming from, right, 0:09:42.754 --> 0:09:45.594 Because one thing you've got to remember, and we're not 0:09:45.594 --> 0:09:47.834 getting into the nuts and bots, as you say, But 0:09:48.034 --> 0:09:51.554 the pressure in this case is on the tech companies 0:09:51.634 --> 0:09:55.514 to stop kids getting on their apps, rather than it's 0:09:55.554 --> 0:09:58.434 not supposed to be to stop parents from letting their 0:09:58.514 --> 0:09:59.434 kids get on the apps. 0:09:59.434 --> 0:10:01.234 Do you understand that distinction, right? 0:10:01.314 --> 0:10:04.594 So it's not like if you have a fifteen year 0:10:04.634 --> 0:10:07.074 old and your fifteen year old is still on snap 0:10:07.194 --> 0:10:09.434 Chat next week, you're going to go to prison. That's 0:10:09.514 --> 0:10:11.874 not what's going to happen. And Nora are they and 0:10:11.914 --> 0:10:13.554 you're not going to get fined, and nor are they. 0:10:13.634 --> 0:10:16.434 The idea is to pressure the tech companies to make 0:10:16.474 --> 0:10:19.594 it much harder, if not impossible, for kids under sixteen 0:10:19.634 --> 0:10:22.874 to get online. Now that's not something the tech companies 0:10:22.874 --> 0:10:23.434 are fans of. 0:10:23.594 --> 0:10:25.354 Right. Ninety nine percent of. 0:10:25.314 --> 0:10:29.034 Australian teenagers use some form of social media ninety nine percent, 0:10:29.474 --> 0:10:32.594 So that is a lot of customers who are being 0:10:32.634 --> 0:10:35.953 served ads all the time. So there are lots of 0:10:35.994 --> 0:10:38.794 sort of vested interests without wanting to sound too conspiratorial 0:10:38.834 --> 0:10:41.354 about this, who are not mad keen on this working, 0:10:41.834 --> 0:10:43.514 And so I think we have to be mindful of that. 0:10:43.874 --> 0:10:46.354 But back to the point, Amelia, of whether parents are 0:10:46.354 --> 0:10:50.474 going to help their kids get around this man, they 0:10:50.634 --> 0:10:55.114 definitely are going to because so my kids are exactly 0:10:55.114 --> 0:10:57.274 in the bull's eye for this right thirteen and fifteen, 0:10:57.514 --> 0:11:00.314 and me and my friends and most of my friends 0:11:00.314 --> 0:11:02.714 I guess who you know I see regularly, their kids 0:11:02.714 --> 0:11:05.154 are somewhere in that ballpark two, probably aged between like 0:11:05.234 --> 0:11:08.234 nine and sixteen, And say, all the time, what did 0:11:08.274 --> 0:11:11.114 we fight about before there were phones? What did parents 0:11:11.154 --> 0:11:12.114 and kids. 0:11:11.954 --> 0:11:13.394 Argue about before there were phones? 0:11:13.434 --> 0:11:16.714 Because it is the biggest source of contention in every 0:11:16.754 --> 0:11:21.554 house I know, including my own screen time, phone usage, addiction, 0:11:21.994 --> 0:11:24.474 social media, all of those things are the things that 0:11:24.554 --> 0:11:27.194 we have most conflict about. And so in a way, 0:11:27.274 --> 0:11:29.594 you'd think, oh, well, how great, because now you don't 0:11:29.634 --> 0:11:31.714 have to row about it because it's just illegal for 0:11:31.754 --> 0:11:32.714 them to be on YouTube. 0:11:32.754 --> 0:11:34.274 But that's exactly what I thought. 0:11:34.274 --> 0:11:37.953 But that's not the case, because what it means is 0:11:38.754 --> 0:11:42.034 you are now going to be fighting about them getting 0:11:42.074 --> 0:11:44.994 off those things. The thing is Although I'm a big 0:11:44.994 --> 0:11:47.754 supporter of the ban, I've never been a really big 0:11:47.794 --> 0:11:50.754 supporter of the Jonathan Height kind of argument that really 0:11:50.834 --> 0:11:53.554 parents just all need to get together and agree. Me 0:11:53.634 --> 0:11:55.354 and all my friends are not going to buy our kids' 0:11:55.354 --> 0:11:59.754 phones because I think it's a really simplistic idea, given 0:11:59.794 --> 0:12:02.034 all the forces that are coming at us, that if 0:12:02.114 --> 0:12:05.394 parents were just just grew a pair and told their 0:12:05.474 --> 0:12:07.394 kids to get off phones, we wouldn't have a problem. 0:12:07.514 --> 0:12:10.714 I think this is a really complicated relationship that teens 0:12:10.714 --> 0:12:14.114 have with these platforms. We've just been handed a really 0:12:14.114 --> 0:12:16.674 good tool to be able to help us get the 0:12:16.714 --> 0:12:20.154 kids off them. But I think that the great benefit 0:12:20.194 --> 0:12:22.794 of this ban is actually not going to be fifteen 0:12:22.834 --> 0:12:24.674 year olds. It's going to be for the twelve year 0:12:24.674 --> 0:12:26.674 olds who are never going to get on these platforms 0:12:26.674 --> 0:12:28.714 in the first place, or the nine year old who 0:12:28.794 --> 0:12:31.034 are not going to be handed a phone at eleven 0:12:31.034 --> 0:12:33.754 and given Snapchat anymore. I think that actually the biggest 0:12:33.794 --> 0:12:37.034 benefit is going to come from those kids rather than 0:12:37.074 --> 0:12:38.514 for the kids who are already in the eye of 0:12:38.554 --> 0:12:38.994 the storm. 0:12:39.274 --> 0:12:42.914 That's an interesting idea because even smoking right, like, if 0:12:42.914 --> 0:12:44.714 you look at they were all different there were public 0:12:44.794 --> 0:12:49.713 health campaigns, and there was the cost and almost the 0:12:49.874 --> 0:12:55.754 social backlash towards people who smoked. And that didn't happen overnight. 0:12:55.834 --> 0:12:58.474 It didn't happen with one piece of legislation or one policy. 0:12:58.914 --> 0:13:02.394 It happened gradually, and so a lot of the arguments 0:13:02.394 --> 0:13:05.114 that I hear against it. I think about alcohol, you 0:13:05.154 --> 0:13:08.954 can say, oh, well, can technically go out and buy 0:13:08.954 --> 0:13:10.674 alcohol for a seventeen year old. What if the parent 0:13:10.714 --> 0:13:12.194 wants to have a glass of wine in their house 0:13:12.194 --> 0:13:14.994 with their seventeen year old, What if they're seventeen and eleven, 0:13:15.194 --> 0:13:19.234 Like that's been going on forever, and you negotiate it 0:13:19.274 --> 0:13:22.754 as a family. But the fact that it is sort 0:13:22.794 --> 0:13:26.554 of enshrined in law that that's not something that a 0:13:26.594 --> 0:13:30.914 seventeen year old is allowed to do is in the parents' arsenal, 0:13:31.234 --> 0:13:33.914 and it's in the teacher's arsenal as well. Like I'm 0:13:33.954 --> 0:13:36.434 thinking about all of the teachers who are dealing with 0:13:36.874 --> 0:13:41.434 social media conflicts every single day as part of their job, 0:13:42.114 --> 0:13:44.674 who can now probably go you shouldn't even be on there. 0:13:44.794 --> 0:13:47.354 Even that gives them something, And I think that it 0:13:47.514 --> 0:13:50.154 chose the Australian government has a backbone I think it's brave. 0:13:50.234 --> 0:13:52.434 I think it's bold. The rest of the world is 0:13:52.714 --> 0:13:57.634 following suit, not identically interestingly, so even Denmark. I think 0:13:58.234 --> 0:14:00.794 there's a lot of talk about that they're not allowed 0:14:00.834 --> 0:14:03.914 on without parental consent. I wonder if that is a 0:14:03.994 --> 0:14:07.234 change that will happen or curfew is the other they 0:14:07.634 --> 0:14:08.114 talking about. 0:14:08.154 --> 0:14:12.314 The problem with the parental consent model is in theory, 0:14:12.354 --> 0:14:15.354 this only really works if it's everybody. So that's always 0:14:15.434 --> 0:14:17.634 Jonathan Hight's argument that I referenced before, and if you're 0:14:17.634 --> 0:14:20.994 not awhere, he is the guy who wrote The Anxious Generation. 0:14:21.514 --> 0:14:25.554 He's an American, what is his psychologist? And he's very 0:14:25.554 --> 0:14:28.994 widely credited for It was actually the South Australian premier's 0:14:28.994 --> 0:14:31.514 wife who read that book here and started pushing her 0:14:31.554 --> 0:14:34.514 husband to do something about this. But that's kind of 0:14:34.514 --> 0:14:36.874 the theory that his stuff about the village, like parents 0:14:36.914 --> 0:14:39.194 should get together in a village almost and say we're 0:14:39.274 --> 0:14:42.994 all not going to do phones is really as I say, 0:14:43.034 --> 0:14:44.354 I don't think that works. I think it's a bit 0:14:44.354 --> 0:14:46.474 of a middle class fantasy that everybody's just going to 0:14:46.554 --> 0:14:49.194 do that. But I think that the thing that's really 0:14:49.234 --> 0:14:51.794 good about the social media benefit works is that your 0:14:51.914 --> 0:14:54.914 kid is going to say, I'm so isolated from my 0:14:54.994 --> 0:14:57.114 friends if you'd kick me off social media. It's like, 0:14:57.154 --> 0:14:58.474 but none of your friends are going to be on 0:14:58.514 --> 0:15:00.634 social media, so you're not going to be isolated from 0:15:00.634 --> 0:15:04.194 your friends, and you'll find somewhere else together on the Internet. 0:15:04.274 --> 0:15:06.794 And here there are some really good arguments, as there 0:15:06.834 --> 0:15:09.754 is with any change in legislation. So there was an 0:15:09.834 --> 0:15:13.114 article in The Guardian by Ezra Shohl, who is the 0:15:13.114 --> 0:15:15.074 son of Natasha Shol, who has spoken about on this 0:15:15.114 --> 0:15:18.794 podcast before. She's a brilliant writer. And he is fifteen 0:15:19.074 --> 0:15:23.274 and is quadriplegic. He is in a wheelchair. He has 0:15:23.674 --> 0:15:28.954 suffered the most horrific health crises over the last few years, 0:15:29.434 --> 0:15:33.234 and the thing that has connected him to the outside 0:15:33.274 --> 0:15:36.954 world when he has been stuck in a hospital bed 0:15:37.074 --> 0:15:40.634 during adolescence has been social media. And I don't doubt 0:15:40.634 --> 0:15:42.994 that that's his story. And in fact he made some 0:15:43.114 --> 0:15:46.034 really good points. He wrote, if tech companies have the 0:15:46.194 --> 0:15:49.594 capability to delete accounts for people under the age of sixteen, 0:15:49.874 --> 0:15:52.674 they also have the capability to delete accounts that bully, 0:15:52.714 --> 0:15:56.994 harass or cause harm. And he said that he's been bullied. 0:15:56.994 --> 0:15:59.314 He gets stuff all the time, and he reports these 0:15:59.314 --> 0:16:03.514 accounts and nothing happens. And as anyone with a profile knows, 0:16:03.674 --> 0:16:07.954 you can get horrifically abused and nothing. So I think 0:16:07.994 --> 0:16:12.194 this also proves the capabilities that tech companies have to 0:16:12.274 --> 0:16:17.034 do more than their doing. But I think that ultimately 0:16:17.354 --> 0:16:20.914 this is about utilitarianism. I think it's about the greater good. 0:16:21.474 --> 0:16:23.794 I think it's got to look at you know, what 0:16:23.874 --> 0:16:25.874 this has done to teen brains, and when I look 0:16:25.914 --> 0:16:30.194 at like I saw this interview with Miranda Kerr a 0:16:30.234 --> 0:16:31.754 few months ago. I think you talked about it on 0:16:31.834 --> 0:16:35.194 Parenting out Loud and the Miranda Curs of the world, 0:16:35.194 --> 0:16:38.634 who of course are married to the founder of Snapchat. 0:16:38.834 --> 0:16:41.354 Do you think their kids have access to social media? No, 0:16:41.434 --> 0:16:44.994 they don't because they know that screens are corrosive and 0:16:45.074 --> 0:16:47.394 damaging and blah blah blah. So what I've always hated 0:16:47.554 --> 0:16:51.434 is the divide between the tech billionaires who are very 0:16:51.474 --> 0:16:55.194 strict with their screen time and just allowing everyone else 0:16:55.274 --> 0:16:56.954 to kind of fall victim to it. 0:16:56.994 --> 0:16:59.754 And let's be clear, those tech companies right now are 0:16:59.834 --> 0:17:04.154 quaking in their very expensive boots and Holly, I couldn't 0:17:04.234 --> 0:17:07.714 underscore more what you said before about be conscious of 0:17:07.754 --> 0:17:10.754 where you're hearing criticism over the next few weeks and 0:17:10.834 --> 0:17:15.513 who is criticizing this legislation. Because these companies they're not 0:17:15.634 --> 0:17:18.154 worried about the fines from the Australian government. They've made 0:17:18.154 --> 0:17:20.594 the point that look, these companies could be fined fifty 0:17:20.674 --> 0:17:23.513 million dollars dollars if they're shown to not be making 0:17:23.514 --> 0:17:26.273 sure that the safeguards are in place to stop children 0:17:26.274 --> 0:17:29.634 from signing up. Yeah, fifty million dollars is nothing for Mata. 0:17:29.874 --> 0:17:32.033 Someone pointed out who used to work at Matter in 0:17:32.074 --> 0:17:34.234 a BBC article that that's the equivalent of a parking 0:17:34.234 --> 0:17:37.074 ticket for Matter. They make fifty million dollars in about 0:17:37.074 --> 0:17:39.474 two hours, so it's not really a problem for them. 0:17:39.954 --> 0:17:41.714 That's not why they're worried. They're not worried about the 0:17:41.714 --> 0:17:44.954 fifty million dollars. They're worried that the Australian government is 0:17:45.074 --> 0:17:48.834 leading the charge in changing a social norm that will 0:17:48.834 --> 0:17:52.794 make a child looking at TikTok or YouTube the same 0:17:52.874 --> 0:17:55.514 as seeing a child smoking a cigarette. You can see 0:17:55.554 --> 0:17:57.954 a child smoking a cigarette's pretty rare these days, but 0:17:58.234 --> 0:18:01.794 I'm sure that there are some kids who sneak a cigarette, 0:18:01.954 --> 0:18:05.154 but we look at it aghast because we have decided 0:18:05.194 --> 0:18:07.674 as a society that that is not okay. And that 0:18:07.834 --> 0:18:09.434 is what the social media said exactly. 0:18:09.474 --> 0:18:14.154 And the tech companies aren't worried that the poor teenagers 0:18:14.194 --> 0:18:17.874 won't be able to, you know, really galvanize and have 0:18:17.994 --> 0:18:20.154 their online communities. They're not worried about that. They're worried 0:18:20.194 --> 0:18:21.234 that they're not going to be able to serve them 0:18:21.234 --> 0:18:24.754 ads anymore. And that I think is surely we can 0:18:24.794 --> 0:18:26.553 hold hands and agree that that's a good thing. 0:18:26.474 --> 0:18:29.874 Absolutely, and I do. The only thing I want to say, though, 0:18:30.034 --> 0:18:31.954 is that the articles that are coming out now about 0:18:31.954 --> 0:18:34.914 parents aren't going to enforce it, and there will inevitably 0:18:34.994 --> 0:18:39.033 be a conversation about like, oh, helicopter parents can't be 0:18:39.194 --> 0:18:40.234 strict with their kids. 0:18:40.274 --> 0:18:40.914 That will be. 0:18:41.074 --> 0:18:43.754 That's what will comment. Sec Yeah, I want to. 0:18:43.754 --> 0:18:45.914 Be really clear, because, as I say, I am in 0:18:45.954 --> 0:18:48.274 that sort of bull's eye. If your kid is say 0:18:48.314 --> 0:18:50.594 sixteen or out of this now, it's hard to hear 0:18:50.754 --> 0:18:52.594 everybody around you saying. 0:18:52.794 --> 0:18:55.314 Your kid's brain is damaged, your kid is addicted. 0:18:55.594 --> 0:18:57.874 You've been terrible parents who've just let your kids have 0:18:57.954 --> 0:19:00.394 unfettered access to this Our kids are all going to 0:19:00.434 --> 0:19:02.234 be pure and great and we're never going to give 0:19:02.274 --> 0:19:04.834 them screens, and they won't. You know, it's hard to 0:19:04.874 --> 0:19:08.114 hear that and not get your hackles up, because this 0:19:08.154 --> 0:19:09.474 is a truth. And I'll put my hand up and 0:19:09.474 --> 0:19:12.434 say it's the truth for me too. Technology and phones 0:19:12.834 --> 0:19:15.954 and all that come along with them, which we are 0:19:16.034 --> 0:19:18.354 broadly as a culture now sort of holding hands and 0:19:18.394 --> 0:19:21.474 going not great for kids, have kind of made parenting 0:19:21.514 --> 0:19:23.954 a lot easier in a million ways, right Like they 0:19:23.994 --> 0:19:26.674 really have for busy working families, for the kind of 0:19:26.754 --> 0:19:29.353 parents who which most parents are, who don't have all 0:19:29.394 --> 0:19:30.954 the time in the world to be policing what their 0:19:30.994 --> 0:19:33.194 kids are doing every minute, you know, who don't have 0:19:33.234 --> 0:19:35.914 the time to be ferrying them around to improving activities 0:19:35.914 --> 0:19:36.754 and all that stuff. 0:19:37.274 --> 0:19:38.674 There does feel to me to be. 0:19:38.674 --> 0:19:42.354 A little bit of a snobby divide opening about whether 0:19:42.474 --> 0:19:45.154 or not, you know, the kids who aren't addicted to 0:19:45.234 --> 0:19:48.434 social media are in one class and one who are aren't. 0:19:48.514 --> 0:19:51.434 And I think that that's part of all the arguments 0:19:51.434 --> 0:19:53.513 we're going to see opening up over the next few weeks. 0:19:54.194 --> 0:19:56.634 I think we need to be careful not to demonize 0:19:57.074 --> 0:20:01.194 this generation that have grown up with their phones. If 0:20:01.194 --> 0:20:03.553 this van is successful and followed around the world, and 0:20:03.594 --> 0:20:06.553 you know, as you say, Amelia, the social norm is 0:20:06.594 --> 0:20:08.594 successful shifted, and let's all hope it is. 0:20:08.634 --> 0:20:12.034 I genuinely hope that it is. That's great, But. 0:20:12.034 --> 0:20:14.594 We are going to then have in this generational line 0:20:14.594 --> 0:20:16.954 of like kind of like in the old days we 0:20:17.034 --> 0:20:19.114 grew up before they knew that it was bad for 0:20:19.154 --> 0:20:22.234 you to drink when you were pregnant, or not clip 0:20:22.234 --> 0:20:24.154 your kids in in the car. I heard you talking 0:20:24.154 --> 0:20:26.874 on parenting out loud about seat belts and drawing that comparison, 0:20:27.794 --> 0:20:30.313 like we shouldn't demonize that, just like I think we 0:20:30.314 --> 0:20:32.754 shouldn't demonize the parents who've got a fifteen year old 0:20:32.834 --> 0:20:34.954 right now and they're going if they're on Snapchat for 0:20:34.954 --> 0:20:36.914 another month, is that going to be the end. 0:20:36.874 --> 0:20:37.274 Of the world. 0:20:37.314 --> 0:20:37.394 No. 0:20:37.514 --> 0:20:40.154 And part of that is recognizing that the most powerful 0:20:40.194 --> 0:20:42.954 people and the richest people the world has ever seen 0:20:43.354 --> 0:20:47.394 have thrown everything at the wall to make children dependent 0:20:47.514 --> 0:20:50.114 on what their offerings are. And the more that we 0:20:50.154 --> 0:20:53.754 can shift that understanding from it's not about what parents 0:20:53.794 --> 0:20:56.794 have decided or not decided. It was the most sophisticated 0:20:56.834 --> 0:21:00.634 propaganda machine that had ever been thrown at anyone, and 0:21:00.674 --> 0:21:03.154 it was thrown at kids. And now the Albanzi government 0:21:03.274 --> 0:21:04.514 is trying to stop that tide. 0:21:04.634 --> 0:21:07.313 And Wednesday I think is the first day in what 0:21:07.714 --> 0:21:13.674 I think they want to be a cultural, social, worldwide shift. 0:21:13.874 --> 0:21:15.994 And I don't think if on Friday all of the 0:21:16.074 --> 0:21:18.074 kids aren't off social media, it's a failure. 0:21:18.354 --> 0:21:20.954 Agreed, But thoughts and prayers if you're arguing with your 0:21:20.994 --> 0:21:27.353 fourteen right now after the break, why Oprah Wisdom is 0:21:27.434 --> 0:21:39.354 still all over your feed in twenty twenty five. My 0:21:39.674 --> 0:21:42.154 social media feed, because I'm an adult and I'm allowed 0:21:42.154 --> 0:21:42.674 to have one. 0:21:43.754 --> 0:21:47.154 This weekend has been swamped by a. 0:21:47.074 --> 0:21:49.874 Lot of women who've been to see Oprah Winfrey on 0:21:49.914 --> 0:21:52.513 her tour around Australia. So if you're not on the 0:21:52.554 --> 0:21:54.793 same kind of algorithmic or bent as I am, the 0:21:54.914 --> 0:21:58.274 seventy one year old is in Australia right now. She's 0:21:58.274 --> 0:22:01.553 doing these big speaking events. She's also doing lots of 0:22:01.554 --> 0:22:04.234 social media. So every city she goes to, she's doing 0:22:04.234 --> 0:22:06.314 a hike there because she says she hikes every day 0:22:06.354 --> 0:22:09.754 now and she is eating local delicacies. And then she's 0:22:09.794 --> 0:22:13.434 having these huge, sort of arena sized shows women are going. 0:22:13.794 --> 0:22:16.234 The vibe seems to be very much with their mates, 0:22:16.514 --> 0:22:18.994 you know, getting dressed up, put your other Camilla or 0:22:19.034 --> 0:22:21.714 your imitation Camilla, caf done on. Go and see Oprah 0:22:21.714 --> 0:22:24.154 talk and then post her wisdom. The kind of things 0:22:24.194 --> 0:22:26.674 I'm seeing being posted are five things I learned at 0:22:26.714 --> 0:22:27.314 Oprah last. 0:22:27.354 --> 0:22:29.033 Oh, I'm seeing all of them, and I'm reading all 0:22:29.074 --> 0:22:30.194 of them because I would. 0:22:30.034 --> 0:22:30.474 Have loved to go. 0:22:30.554 --> 0:22:31.394 Are people loving it? 0:22:31.554 --> 0:22:33.794 Yeah, so I'm seeing this kind of thing. This is interesting. 0:22:34.194 --> 0:22:36.793 You cannot be friends with anyone who is even a 0:22:36.834 --> 0:22:38.793 little bit jealous of you. This is one of the 0:22:38.834 --> 0:22:42.114 things I saw. This is unfortunate. I've declared in the past, Jesse, 0:22:42.594 --> 0:22:47.034 I have had times when I've been jealous of you, exactly. 0:22:47.594 --> 0:22:49.874 Jealousy is a crack in the foundation, says Oprah. The 0:22:49.914 --> 0:22:50.794 whole house will fall. 0:22:50.794 --> 0:22:53.394 Oh gosh, I'm prone to jealousy. 0:22:53.554 --> 0:22:54.154 You're in trouble. 0:22:54.714 --> 0:22:57.234 Life is whispering to you all of the time. You 0:22:57.354 --> 0:22:59.434 only go off track when you're not listening. 0:22:59.794 --> 0:23:00.954 This is interesting. 0:23:01.754 --> 0:23:02.273 I like that. 0:23:02.354 --> 0:23:04.394 I don't fully understand it, but I like the vibe. 0:23:04.474 --> 0:23:06.994 Yeah, this is the kind of stuff that I'm seeing post. 0:23:07.114 --> 0:23:09.034 Everyone's saying this is what Oprah taught me last night. 0:23:09.514 --> 0:23:11.594 The stereotype of the women who are going but I'm 0:23:11.594 --> 0:23:13.954 sure this isn't entirely true, of course, is that there 0:23:13.954 --> 0:23:16.034 are a certain age that they're white, that they're into 0:23:16.074 --> 0:23:20.034 self optimization. But this is largely an audience that's come 0:23:20.034 --> 0:23:23.234 of age with her, right, So Oprah is a guru 0:23:23.474 --> 0:23:24.314 to this generation. 0:23:24.434 --> 0:23:26.034 Say I will fight you on that. 0:23:26.194 --> 0:23:26.754 Good I don't. 0:23:26.954 --> 0:23:29.674 I don't think that it is a certain generation. The 0:23:29.674 --> 0:23:34.434 people I'm seeing are in their twenties. They are diverse, 0:23:34.634 --> 0:23:38.154 and when I looked into it, one of the hallmarks 0:23:38.154 --> 0:23:40.634 of her longevity has been the diversity of her audience. 0:23:40.754 --> 0:23:43.594 Yes, I mean, I think that's certainly true, because she's 0:23:43.914 --> 0:23:46.394 you know, she has so many stories to tell. But 0:23:46.554 --> 0:23:49.514 I think she is seen by her critics as being 0:23:50.354 --> 0:23:52.714 like a sort of Tamu guru in a way, when 0:23:52.714 --> 0:23:54.114 really I would argue she's the og. 0:23:54.554 --> 0:23:55.194 Yeah, me too. 0:23:55.234 --> 0:23:58.914 Anyway, Amelia always says that you're a bit baffled by 0:23:58.914 --> 0:23:59.754 the Oprah phenomena. 0:23:59.914 --> 0:24:01.194 Yeah, like full disclosure. 0:24:01.274 --> 0:24:03.314 I wanted to do this today because I did say 0:24:03.394 --> 0:24:06.154 she was in Australia, and I have to admit that 0:24:06.154 --> 0:24:09.033 that phenomenon past nearby, and I want to learn. I 0:24:09.074 --> 0:24:13.474 want to learn why Australian women in particular evidently still 0:24:13.514 --> 0:24:16.434 love Oprah After decades in the public eye, she is 0:24:16.514 --> 0:24:19.914 still attracting thousands of people to these shows. They're gathering 0:24:19.954 --> 0:24:21.994 a lot from it. I want you to explain her 0:24:22.034 --> 0:24:22.674 appeal to me. 0:24:22.794 --> 0:24:24.594 Do you want a little cheat sheet I do on 0:24:24.754 --> 0:24:25.554 Oprah Winfrey. 0:24:25.994 --> 0:24:28.314 Now, this could be the longest cheat sheet of all time, 0:24:28.514 --> 0:24:29.794 but it's not going to be. 0:24:29.554 --> 0:24:31.154 Because we will be here all day. 0:24:31.754 --> 0:24:34.354 Did you know the place that Oprah was born, which 0:24:34.394 --> 0:24:37.394 is in Mississippi in the States, is called Kosiosco. 0:24:37.434 --> 0:24:40.314 Nolasco Bridge in New York City. 0:24:40.474 --> 0:24:43.474 Yes, so famously. 0:24:43.554 --> 0:24:45.794 I guess the Oprah myth and it isn't a myth, 0:24:45.834 --> 0:24:48.114 it is her origin story is a large part of 0:24:48.114 --> 0:24:51.394 her appeal right very top line. She was born to 0:24:51.434 --> 0:24:56.554 teenage parents in Kosiosco, Mississippi, and she had a very 0:24:56.554 --> 0:25:00.194 tough upbringing. She was sexually abused as a teenager. She 0:25:00.234 --> 0:25:01.834 gave birth to a little boy at fourteen. 0:25:01.954 --> 0:25:02.513 He died. 0:25:03.314 --> 0:25:08.954 Despite this absolutely traumatic upbringing, I guess you'd say she 0:25:08.994 --> 0:25:11.554 started working in media when she was seventeen. 0:25:11.714 --> 0:25:12.154 Wow. 0:25:12.274 --> 0:25:16.834 And then she started working for a TV station locally 0:25:16.914 --> 0:25:19.954 to her, and then she was working in Baltimore, and 0:25:19.994 --> 0:25:22.554 then she most notably made a move to Chicago, which 0:25:22.554 --> 0:25:25.594 is where she built her empire. Right, So, from a 0:25:25.674 --> 0:25:28.313 very young age, she was incredibly driven. There are so 0:25:28.474 --> 0:25:31.114 many firsts when it comes to Oprah Winfrey. 0:25:31.194 --> 0:25:31.354 Right. 0:25:31.794 --> 0:25:33.234 She was the first. 0:25:33.034 --> 0:25:36.554 Woman in history to own and produce her own talk show. 0:25:36.994 --> 0:25:40.954 She's the first Black American woman to be syndicated, the 0:25:40.994 --> 0:25:44.513 first Black American woman to be a billionaire, the first 0:25:44.714 --> 0:25:48.834 Black American woman to own a TV network. She decided 0:25:48.834 --> 0:25:52.154 that news reporting wasn't really her thing because. 0:25:51.794 --> 0:25:55.354 She struggled with the objectivity of it, which is a very. 0:25:55.714 --> 0:25:56.954 Self aware thing to say. 0:25:57.034 --> 0:25:59.154 I love her, Yeah, it's very self aware, but it 0:25:59.234 --> 0:26:01.434 also is like one of the foundations for what she 0:26:01.554 --> 0:26:04.594 then almost invented in a way, which was this like 0:26:04.834 --> 0:26:07.674 own your truth, Yes, own your truth. So rather than 0:26:07.754 --> 0:26:10.874 just reporting the news, she wanted to create the culture. 0:26:10.954 --> 0:26:13.354 I guess, right, So she wanted to be a journal 0:26:13.434 --> 0:26:17.273 and in nineteen eighty four, she relocated to Chicago to 0:26:17.434 --> 0:26:20.874 host a low rated morning talk show called Am Chicago. 0:26:21.314 --> 0:26:23.313 It was immediately a hit with her hosting it. 0:26:23.394 --> 0:26:23.594 Right. 0:26:24.074 --> 0:26:26.874 They say that because she was authentic and empathetic and engaging. 0:26:27.434 --> 0:26:29.513 She quickly took the show from last place to the 0:26:29.514 --> 0:26:31.954 top of the ratings within a year, and they soon 0:26:32.114 --> 0:26:34.394 renamed the show after her within a year of her 0:26:34.434 --> 0:26:37.954 doing it by nineteen eighty eight, so only four years. 0:26:38.514 --> 0:26:41.033 That show was such a hit, and she acquired ownership 0:26:41.074 --> 0:26:44.194 and production responsibilities for it, making her the first woman 0:26:44.234 --> 0:26:46.874 in history to own and produce her own talk show. 0:26:47.034 --> 0:26:48.634 Wo wow, I invented it. 0:26:48.794 --> 0:26:49.834 She invented that shit. 0:26:50.314 --> 0:26:53.994 She founded Hyper Productions, groundbreaking move that secured her creative 0:26:54.034 --> 0:26:56.194 control and made her loads of money. It's another big 0:26:56.234 --> 0:26:58.594 thing about Oprah. She is very, very rich, as we know. 0:26:59.034 --> 0:27:01.314 And then as we know, right, the Oprah Winfrey Show 0:27:01.314 --> 0:27:03.513 started off in a kind of it was like, I 0:27:03.554 --> 0:27:05.474 don't know what we call it, like shock TV in 0:27:05.514 --> 0:27:08.714 those days, Like she'd have oring family members. I remember 0:27:08.834 --> 0:27:11.034 very clearly an episode she had the Clueklux Klan. 0:27:10.914 --> 0:27:13.354 On god Is how as a child of the nineties, 0:27:13.594 --> 0:27:16.674 I knew Oprah. She had this talk show that had 0:27:16.714 --> 0:27:19.954 the scandalous sort of soap operaary elements to it. 0:27:20.274 --> 0:27:20.554 See. 0:27:20.634 --> 0:27:24.594 I think that you can only understand Oprah in relationship 0:27:24.634 --> 0:27:33.114 to Jerry Springer like Jerry Springer was the scandalous, ethically dubious, 0:27:33.394 --> 0:27:36.994 there was no soul to it. It was maybe the 0:27:37.034 --> 0:27:42.234 original rage bait that was happening, and Oprah was almost 0:27:42.474 --> 0:27:46.114 the more like morally upright version of that. 0:27:46.354 --> 0:27:50.073 But it's the order of things, So Oprah was first, 0:27:50.234 --> 0:27:52.754 uh huh, And Oprah's TV show did have a fair 0:27:52.794 --> 0:27:54.793 bit of that, but she didn't like it. By the 0:27:54.914 --> 0:27:57.273 end of the eighties, she was over that kind of 0:27:57.274 --> 0:28:00.274 stuff and she wanted to move in the nineties, which 0:28:00.314 --> 0:28:03.394 she did into more like it's amazing to think that 0:28:03.434 --> 0:28:05.994 the infamous Wagon of Fat episode, which is one of 0:28:05.994 --> 0:28:09.754 the things that is most often used to criticize her for, 0:28:09.834 --> 0:28:12.514 which is the episode where very famously she lost lots 0:28:12.514 --> 0:28:14.674 of weight on a diet that she later admitted was 0:28:14.954 --> 0:28:18.394 incredibly dangerous and basically starvation, and then she walked onto 0:28:18.394 --> 0:28:19.793 her set with her Wagon and Fat. 0:28:20.754 --> 0:28:23.634 Was in nineteen eighty eight, and like, that is a 0:28:23.714 --> 0:28:24.314 very long time ago. 0:28:24.394 --> 0:28:26.234 So she was doing that kind of stuff and then 0:28:26.314 --> 0:28:29.234 Jerry Springer started doing it, Doctor Phil started doing it, 0:28:29.394 --> 0:28:31.714 these other people started doing it, and she was like, oh, 0:28:31.794 --> 0:28:34.154 I think I've given birth to a monster. And she 0:28:34.514 --> 0:28:37.033 shifted into self help stuff. 0:28:37.154 --> 0:28:37.474 Yeah. 0:28:37.634 --> 0:28:39.434 Do you think that part of the reason why that 0:28:39.514 --> 0:28:42.834 wagon of felt was such a milestone in TV history 0:28:42.954 --> 0:28:46.194 and for Oprah was because she basically kind of invented 0:28:46.274 --> 0:28:49.914 vulnerability on TV because before that, is it true that 0:28:50.034 --> 0:28:52.434 it was much more polished and people didn't sort of 0:28:52.474 --> 0:28:54.594 open up in that way about their struggles? 0:28:54.834 --> 0:28:57.834 Yeah? I think so. They weren't as candid about it. 0:28:57.874 --> 0:28:59.314 And when you go back and you look at all 0:28:59.354 --> 0:29:04.274 the times Oprah was asked or mocked or criticized openly 0:29:04.354 --> 0:29:06.554 to her face on other talk shows about her weight, 0:29:06.634 --> 0:29:09.474 you can complete understand how she got to that point. 0:29:09.554 --> 0:29:11.474 And I think that she was trying to use it 0:29:12.034 --> 0:29:17.674 as a way to help inspire other women, which ironically 0:29:18.394 --> 0:29:21.034 now her being in Australia. If you have a really 0:29:21.034 --> 0:29:23.754 good look at that poster of Oprah's touring poster, it's 0:29:23.794 --> 0:29:25.354 got a big face of her, and it's got all the 0:29:25.434 --> 0:29:28.754 dates you can see presented by and it has a 0:29:28.754 --> 0:29:31.194 brand name that I actually didn't recognize, and that brand 0:29:31.234 --> 0:29:35.394 is a pharmaceutical company that makes weight loss products, which 0:29:35.434 --> 0:29:38.194 is why she's here. They've paid for her to come 0:29:38.234 --> 0:29:40.914 out here, which is sort of a lens by which 0:29:40.954 --> 0:29:43.354 a lot of Maybe her social media content makes more 0:29:43.394 --> 0:29:47.514 sense that she's doing these hikes and that, you know, 0:29:47.634 --> 0:29:50.754 lots of commentary as they always has been about her body. 0:29:50.954 --> 0:29:53.554 The one I saw of her in Sydney after she'd 0:29:53.594 --> 0:29:55.594 been on a hike and then she went to eat 0:29:55.634 --> 0:29:59.794 hotcakes said something to the effect of, I've now earned 0:29:59.914 --> 0:30:03.474 myself the ability to have an indulgent meal. Yeah, it 0:30:03.594 --> 0:30:06.594 is diet adjacent culture that she is still pushing. 0:30:07.234 --> 0:30:12.914 No one has marinated in diet culture more than Oprah 0:30:12.954 --> 0:30:17.314 Whgfrey like she has been the subject of it. She 0:30:17.554 --> 0:30:19.914 has been in many ways victim of it. But then 0:30:19.954 --> 0:30:22.554 I suppose at the same time she's espoused it because 0:30:22.594 --> 0:30:24.394 that's the world in which she grew up. 0:30:24.474 --> 0:30:27.474 I think you've got to remember that, like her peak. 0:30:27.554 --> 0:30:30.514 So the peak of Oprah's powers in terms of influence 0:30:31.114 --> 0:30:34.594 were the eighties and nineties, right, and diet culture in 0:30:34.594 --> 0:30:37.674 inverted commas didn't exist, as in it did absolutely exist, 0:30:37.794 --> 0:30:39.074 but we didn't have a name for it. 0:30:39.154 --> 0:30:40.274 We couldn't point at it. 0:30:40.714 --> 0:30:41.394 Air that you breathe. 0:30:41.474 --> 0:30:44.154 Yes, it's just every single woman wanted to lose. Yeah. 0:30:44.634 --> 0:30:47.234 And so if you think that the power that Oprah 0:30:47.314 --> 0:30:49.874 harnessed and then, as you say, Jesse, that power kind 0:30:49.874 --> 0:30:52.074 of got hijacked by lots of other sort of other 0:30:52.154 --> 0:30:57.754 shows and things. Was Middle America ordinary in inverted commas, 0:30:57.794 --> 0:31:02.274 people watching television during the day, wrestling with the kind 0:31:02.314 --> 0:31:05.234 of things that ordinary people wrestle with, which is family 0:31:05.314 --> 0:31:10.514 dynamics and problems, money, weight relationships. She spoke to people 0:31:10.554 --> 0:31:12.994 about the shit they really cared about, rather than what 0:31:13.114 --> 0:31:16.394 she thought they should care about. That's the secret of 0:31:16.434 --> 0:31:19.514 her success in those days. And we can pretend, as 0:31:19.594 --> 0:31:23.114 much as we want, retrospectively or otherwise that women didn't 0:31:23.154 --> 0:31:26.394 care about losing weight. But women cared, and you could 0:31:26.594 --> 0:31:28.914 still argue now care enormously about weight. 0:31:28.994 --> 0:31:29.474 They just do. 0:31:30.234 --> 0:31:32.394 And I think that Oprah, if we think about the 0:31:32.434 --> 0:31:34.794 Wagon of Fat being nineteen eighty eight, which is a 0:31:34.874 --> 0:31:37.954 very long time ago, over that time, I think that 0:31:38.074 --> 0:31:41.194 Oprah's lens on it has shifted as well. She during 0:31:41.194 --> 0:31:44.274 that time has lost weight, put on weight, written a 0:31:44.314 --> 0:31:46.914 million different words about it, spoken words about it, decided 0:31:46.994 --> 0:31:49.194 not to speak about it at all, make a deal 0:31:49.234 --> 0:31:51.714 with weight watches, make a deal with medical weight loss company, 0:31:51.754 --> 0:31:55.114 don't do that. Over that time, she has ridden all 0:31:55.194 --> 0:31:58.234 kinds of waves with that and she's been blamed in 0:31:58.274 --> 0:32:02.114 a way for being a paragon of diet culture, when 0:32:02.114 --> 0:32:04.674 I think that actually she just kind of reflected. 0:32:04.274 --> 0:32:07.074 She gave to us shar and she reflects it to us. 0:32:07.154 --> 0:32:10.634 And so where she is now here having been brought 0:32:10.674 --> 0:32:14.594 here by a medical weight loss company, which whatever feelings 0:32:14.634 --> 0:32:16.154 you have about that, and there are many to have, 0:32:16.234 --> 0:32:19.034 I think she reflects where weight loss culture is in 0:32:19.074 --> 0:32:23.034 this moment, which is the GLP one revolution. You can 0:32:23.074 --> 0:32:26.314 go hiking and eat hotcakes and take like obesity is 0:32:26.354 --> 0:32:28.074 a disease. That's what she's talking about a lot. So 0:32:28.114 --> 0:32:31.914 I think it's hard to uncouple Oprah from that, But 0:32:32.034 --> 0:32:33.554 she's actually a lot more than. 0:32:33.514 --> 0:32:36.194 That, right, And what I'm hearing from the way that 0:32:36.234 --> 0:32:41.754 you describe her extraordinary rise is that she made people 0:32:41.794 --> 0:32:46.034 who didn't feel very seen feel seen and understood as well, 0:32:46.194 --> 0:32:48.914 not just seen, but understood at a time when their 0:32:48.954 --> 0:32:52.634 concerns were seen as quotidian or not important, or superficial 0:32:52.714 --> 0:32:55.834 or silly. And so, what do you think accounts for 0:32:55.914 --> 0:33:00.634 both the longevity of that career, because now everyone discloses everything. 0:33:00.834 --> 0:33:02.794 So back in the eighties and the early nineties, when 0:33:02.834 --> 0:33:05.914 she's doing the wagon of fat that's unusual and revolutionary. 0:33:06.194 --> 0:33:08.434 Now we all know much about each other, as the 0:33:08.554 --> 0:33:11.194 internet meme goes, So what do you think it counts 0:33:11.194 --> 0:33:15.634 for that continued fascination with Oprah when everyone's disclosing everything. 0:33:15.674 --> 0:33:19.474 And also for Australian women, she strikes me so quintessentially 0:33:19.514 --> 0:33:22.714 American in her rise and in the adversity that she's 0:33:22.714 --> 0:33:25.354 had to overcome. What is it about Oprah these days 0:33:25.354 --> 0:33:27.474 for Australian women that still clearly resonates. 0:33:28.034 --> 0:33:34.474 I think she doesn't talk about structural inequality. She doesn't 0:33:34.474 --> 0:33:37.394 talk about the structures. She doesn't talk about things like 0:33:37.514 --> 0:33:43.074 corporate power, or the gender divide, or environmental degradation or 0:33:43.114 --> 0:33:46.434 all the scary big things. She talks about you and 0:33:46.474 --> 0:33:47.034 your purpose, the. 0:33:47.034 --> 0:33:47.994 Scary small things. 0:33:48.154 --> 0:33:53.234 Yeah, yeah, exactly right. That actually she talks so eloquently 0:33:53.474 --> 0:33:58.394 about grief and about friendship and about your goals and 0:33:58.434 --> 0:34:02.394 your purpose. Which does it applies to the poor person 0:34:02.434 --> 0:34:05.914 in Middle America? It applies to the rich celebrity in 0:34:05.954 --> 0:34:09.673 Hollywood equally, And so I think whether or not that's 0:34:09.714 --> 0:34:11.873 a good thing, and whether or not it's at all 0:34:12.034 --> 0:34:16.074 true or you can uncouple capitalist structures from how people's 0:34:16.154 --> 0:34:18.554 lives turn out whatever. But the reason that she can 0:34:18.634 --> 0:34:24.394 fill a room is because there's something like fundamentally empowering 0:34:24.634 --> 0:34:27.034 about that. And I've always had a relationship to Oprah. 0:34:27.114 --> 0:34:30.834 That's like your great auntie who always buys you a 0:34:30.874 --> 0:34:34.074 really good present and has great advice and gives you 0:34:34.114 --> 0:34:36.434 the right book at the right moment. Like that's as simple, 0:34:36.634 --> 0:34:38.873 and who doesn't want that? And everyone wants that. And 0:34:38.914 --> 0:34:43.634 she's even seen as having been responsible for the reinvigoration 0:34:43.674 --> 0:34:46.114 of reading in the US, like what she did with 0:34:46.714 --> 0:34:48.274 her book club and her magazine. 0:34:48.554 --> 0:34:51.394 Now is she now? Reese and all these other people 0:34:51.594 --> 0:34:54.354 have come in her footsteps, Quen, all these people wouldn't 0:34:54.394 --> 0:34:54.913 exist with. 0:34:54.874 --> 0:34:56.994 The business empires they do were it not for Oprah. 0:34:57.154 --> 0:34:59.393 Yeah, I think it's so true, Jesse. 0:34:59.554 --> 0:35:02.953 I think that her appeal is because her story, her 0:35:02.954 --> 0:35:05.194 origin story, and then all the things she's been through 0:35:05.234 --> 0:35:08.594 in the past four decades. People are very seduced by 0:35:08.754 --> 0:35:13.234 stories of transformation. That's true, whether they are, you know, 0:35:13.394 --> 0:35:16.913 privileged and wealthy but always wanting to be better, you know, 0:35:17.034 --> 0:35:19.634 like this self optimization culture which you could are You 0:35:19.634 --> 0:35:22.314 could string together quite a goog argument that Oprah has 0:35:22.354 --> 0:35:26.834 mainstreamed because therapy speaks self optimization, a certain amount of 0:35:26.834 --> 0:35:29.114 wu woo. She's the points of criticism that you can 0:35:29.234 --> 0:35:29.714 put on her. 0:35:29.754 --> 0:35:29.913 Now. 0:35:29.914 --> 0:35:32.074 For example, she was a massive support of The Secret. 0:35:32.674 --> 0:35:34.913 The first time I ever saw The Secret, it was 0:35:34.994 --> 0:35:38.114 on Oprah. You know, those kind of things. But she 0:35:38.394 --> 0:35:41.954 mainstreamed all that stuff, and she is in herself. She 0:35:42.034 --> 0:35:45.274 embodies a story of transformation and she continues to and 0:35:45.314 --> 0:35:48.514 I think that's really seductive to everybody. The big points 0:35:48.514 --> 0:35:51.074 of criticism for Oprah are the weight stuff which we 0:35:51.154 --> 0:35:54.274 just talked about, toxic diet culture, the fact that she 0:35:54.514 --> 0:35:58.834 is a multi billionaire who apparently her property portfolio is 0:35:58.874 --> 0:36:00.194 worth like five billion dollars. 0:36:00.194 --> 0:36:00.354 Now. 0:36:00.394 --> 0:36:03.274 She is also a massive flat flut. I always fail 0:36:03.354 --> 0:36:04.674 with this wordlaist. 0:36:05.034 --> 0:36:07.554 She did land in Australia on her private jet, she did. 0:36:07.874 --> 0:36:09.834 I mean she goes too. 0:36:09.874 --> 0:36:10.634 That's a long fly. 0:36:10.874 --> 0:36:11.034 Yeah. 0:36:11.594 --> 0:36:13.994 She gives hundreds of millions to charities that she supports, 0:36:14.034 --> 0:36:15.634 and she has an academy in South Africa and all 0:36:15.674 --> 0:36:18.354 those things. But still you cannot be beyond approach when 0:36:18.394 --> 0:36:20.274 you've got that level of personal wealth. 0:36:20.314 --> 0:36:22.073 She owns large swedes. 0:36:22.674 --> 0:36:26.154 That it's the women billionaires who often get this criticism 0:36:26.194 --> 0:36:28.234 that in itself being a billionaire is not okay. 0:36:28.274 --> 0:36:30.274 Well, that's true, although I do have a few problems 0:36:30.274 --> 0:36:32.754 with some of the male billionaires too. She has had 0:36:32.834 --> 0:36:35.154 lots of criticism for the people she's chosen to platform 0:36:35.194 --> 0:36:38.514 over time. You know, we're talking about before racist like 0:36:38.514 --> 0:36:40.913 the KKK. She got a lot of trouble on her 0:36:40.954 --> 0:36:43.194 book club for James Fray, remember the guy with a 0:36:43.234 --> 0:36:46.914 Million Little Pieces. We talked the other week about Jenny McCarthy, 0:36:46.994 --> 0:36:50.554 the anti vaxxa, various kind of questionable health growers. 0:36:50.554 --> 0:36:53.314 But then if you're on Telly for forty. 0:36:53.074 --> 0:36:56.994 Years, making content in all kinds of different climates, you 0:36:57.074 --> 0:36:59.074 are going to get it wrong sometimes. So she gets 0:36:59.114 --> 0:37:00.433 a lot of criticism for all those things. 0:37:00.434 --> 0:37:02.994 And like you said, because she's done so many firsts, 0:37:03.034 --> 0:37:06.274 there's something by definition pushing the boundaries about what she does. 0:37:06.434 --> 0:37:07.114 It's inevitable. 0:37:07.354 --> 0:37:09.594 And also what's interesting about opes, as I like to 0:37:09.594 --> 0:37:12.274 call it because we're such good friends, is one of 0:37:12.314 --> 0:37:14.914 her pieces of magic, which I think some very famous 0:37:14.914 --> 0:37:17.433 successful people have, is that even though they are so 0:37:17.594 --> 0:37:21.274 unrelatable in every way, she sort of feels relatable too. 0:37:22.034 --> 0:37:24.393 And one of the things that's interesting about Oprah in 0:37:24.514 --> 0:37:26.714 terms of being one of the most iconic women of 0:37:26.754 --> 0:37:30.074 a generation, is that her private life is quite unconventional 0:37:30.114 --> 0:37:31.394 really so she's never married. 0:37:31.714 --> 0:37:32.473 She's been with the. 0:37:32.434 --> 0:37:34.834 Same and as Stedman. We could all recite this. They 0:37:34.834 --> 0:37:38.234 have been together for forty years. They once got engaged 0:37:38.234 --> 0:37:39.994 but quickly called it off, but never broke up. 0:37:39.994 --> 0:37:42.513 Okaya, why they're just. 0:37:42.554 --> 0:37:45.114 Not into it at that time in her life she 0:37:45.194 --> 0:37:48.993 was always I prioritize work. You know, her life has 0:37:49.034 --> 0:37:52.354 been work. She never had children after that tragic death 0:37:52.394 --> 0:37:54.554 of that little boy when she was a teenager. Her 0:37:54.714 --> 0:37:57.913 famous best friend Gail King, who is famous now too, 0:37:57.954 --> 0:38:00.474 goes everywhere with it. In fact, my favorite Oprah detail 0:38:00.514 --> 0:38:02.473 is that in all of her homes, which is the. 0:38:02.434 --> 0:38:05.234 Kind of thing you can only say about billionaires, Gail. 0:38:04.994 --> 0:38:07.114 Has her own room, like with her own deck or 0:38:07.274 --> 0:38:08.834 I'm always like, if I was a moult. 0:38:08.794 --> 0:38:09.594 That's what I'd do. 0:38:10.514 --> 0:38:12.514 Gayla is the lover of her Gayle is the lover 0:38:12.554 --> 0:38:14.993 of her life. You know, none of that is particularly 0:38:15.034 --> 0:38:19.034 relatable business, but everybody's like, yeah, Oprah my position on her, 0:38:19.074 --> 0:38:20.393 I would have liked to go and see her, even 0:38:20.434 --> 0:38:24.073 though I do have some issues with the blatant product. 0:38:23.714 --> 0:38:26.554 Placement of the aforementioned. 0:38:26.314 --> 0:38:29.114 Medical weight loss company in that I don't necessarily like 0:38:29.154 --> 0:38:30.834 her or not like her, but she's just there's no 0:38:30.994 --> 0:38:32.954 question she's one of the most iconic figures. 0:38:33.114 --> 0:38:33.794 I think it would have. 0:38:33.754 --> 0:38:35.913 Been a lovely night. I would have really enjoyed it. 0:38:36.674 --> 0:38:40.154 After the break, Travis Kelcey just shared an insight into 0:38:40.194 --> 0:38:43.314 his relationship with Taylor Swift and apparently it's a big 0:38:43.354 --> 0:38:48.594 red flag one unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes 0:38:48.674 --> 0:38:52.634 every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and MEA subscribers. 0:38:53.114 --> 0:38:55.194 Follow the link in the show notes to get us 0:38:55.194 --> 0:38:57.954 in your ears five days a week, and a huge 0:38:57.994 --> 0:39:11.834 thank you to all our current subscribers. If you're not 0:39:11.994 --> 0:39:15.554 up to date with New Heights Travis Kelsey's podcast aka 0:39:15.834 --> 0:39:19.433 Taylor Swift's fiance and a famous NFL player, I want 0:39:19.434 --> 0:39:21.914 to tell you about an episode recently. 0:39:21.954 --> 0:39:24.314 Do we all regularly podcast? 0:39:24.394 --> 0:39:26.873 Yeah? Yeah, it's a weekly listen. I've never listened to 0:39:26.954 --> 0:39:28.394 one minute of this podcast. 0:39:28.434 --> 0:39:31.194 Oh, I listened to the inter Taylor Holy Smokey's that 0:39:31.274 --> 0:39:32.834 was great. That was two hours of my life. 0:39:32.954 --> 0:39:34.234 Did you ever listen to another one? 0:39:34.394 --> 0:39:34.514 No? 0:39:34.674 --> 0:39:35.314 But I know. 0:39:36.034 --> 0:39:37.993 But the reason I know what you're going to say 0:39:38.034 --> 0:39:40.234 in a minute is because I did see these social 0:39:40.274 --> 0:39:43.473 media clips where he was interviewing one George Clooney, who 0:39:43.834 --> 0:39:45.354 you know up there with Oprah for me. 0:39:45.794 --> 0:39:48.953 Yeah, okay, So he had George Clooney on and they 0:39:48.994 --> 0:39:54.554 got onto the topic of relationships. Travis asked his friend 0:39:54.554 --> 0:39:57.953 George about something he'd said about a year or so ago, 0:39:58.034 --> 0:40:00.674 which actually came up on our podcast as well, which 0:40:00.754 --> 0:40:04.634 is that George Clooney said that him and Amle have not, 0:40:04.914 --> 0:40:08.234 in their ten years together, had a fight. 0:40:09.154 --> 0:40:09.873 Fun fact for you. 0:40:09.914 --> 0:40:13.314 They've got twins, they do, and they seem to be thriving. 0:40:14.114 --> 0:40:16.794 Well, you just have to be like George in a mile. 0:40:16.914 --> 0:40:19.154 Oh my gosh. Okay, that's really inspired. 0:40:19.154 --> 0:40:20.794 I asked them to send you some positivity. 0:40:20.794 --> 0:40:23.954 Made exactly right. They seem to like their twins. Okay, 0:40:23.994 --> 0:40:28.234 this is great. Then George replied, I'm not lying, Travis. 0:40:28.274 --> 0:40:31.714 Shall we ask you the same question? And Travis confessed 0:40:32.034 --> 0:40:34.234 that while him and Taylor only been together for two 0:40:34.274 --> 0:40:37.994 and a half years, they have never gotten into an argument. 0:40:37.834 --> 0:40:38.674 Not once. 0:40:39.834 --> 0:40:42.914 And then came the commentary. So there was a viral 0:40:43.074 --> 0:40:45.993 tweet that was sharing that headline and it said this 0:40:46.074 --> 0:40:49.553 is a bad sign. And Nowther said when couples say 0:40:49.634 --> 0:40:51.913 this shit, all I can think is you're either a 0:40:51.914 --> 0:40:54.714 psychopath or you view your partner the same way you 0:40:54.794 --> 0:40:57.593 do a pet a pet. And an article on Mama 0:40:57.634 --> 0:41:02.594 Mia called their lack of fighting a red flag, Amelia, 0:41:02.794 --> 0:41:03.874 is it a red flag? 0:41:04.434 --> 0:41:07.834 It's interesting that we kind of go back and fourth 0:41:08.314 --> 0:41:11.594 as a society about what we think the gold standard is, 0:41:11.914 --> 0:41:14.513 because in my life already, I feel like I've looked 0:41:14.514 --> 0:41:16.554 through a couple of incoundations of this. There was a 0:41:16.634 --> 0:41:19.993 time where the gold standard was no fighting, and then 0:41:19.994 --> 0:41:22.914 it very much moved. I think we all got parrel pilled. 0:41:23.074 --> 0:41:26.873 That's my phrase for the therapization of our culture by 0:41:26.994 --> 0:41:30.554 Esther Perel and Esther Pearrel's basic idea is that you 0:41:30.594 --> 0:41:33.554 can talk through anything, including an affair. She's basically like, 0:41:33.594 --> 0:41:36.754 you know, setting aside abuse, obviously, you can work through 0:41:36.994 --> 0:41:39.314 just about any relationship issue if you just. 0:41:39.314 --> 0:41:41.754 Hash it out, have a little chat, go for it. 0:41:41.754 --> 0:41:44.714 There's a Psychology Today headline that kind of summarizes where 0:41:44.714 --> 0:41:46.994 we were as a culture around this issue for a 0:41:46.994 --> 0:41:49.914 long time, which was if you never fight, someone is hiding. 0:41:50.154 --> 0:41:52.674 So the idea is that if you're not fighting, it's 0:41:52.714 --> 0:41:55.874 because you're repressing something, and that's a very unhealthy, even 0:41:55.994 --> 0:41:57.114 toxic dynamic. 0:41:57.474 --> 0:41:58.314 Is it that? Well? 0:41:58.314 --> 0:42:01.034 But now it feels like we've now swung back, and 0:42:01.074 --> 0:42:04.033 now we've got these two probably the two most kind 0:42:04.074 --> 0:42:08.194 of iconic couples in the world right now, George and Lamar, 0:42:08.634 --> 0:42:12.473 Taylor and Travis proudly declaring that they don't fight. I 0:42:12.514 --> 0:42:14.794 think we've seen the pendulum swing back again. 0:42:15.034 --> 0:42:18.914 Okay, unpopular opinion, all the money in the world, clean house, 0:42:19.714 --> 0:42:20.874 not fighting over directions. 0:42:21.034 --> 0:42:23.354 But they do have twins, as Holy says. 0:42:23.314 --> 0:42:26.554 I know, but I think they would have some support 0:42:26.994 --> 0:42:27.953 around them. 0:42:28.634 --> 0:42:31.234 I think Taylor Travis actually have kind of a complicated 0:42:31.274 --> 0:42:32.074 schedule to deal with. 0:42:32.154 --> 0:42:35.194 He is a professional football player. She just did the 0:42:35.234 --> 0:42:37.033 most successful tour of all time. 0:42:37.234 --> 0:42:39.674 Can you imagine the g Cow for the the g 0:42:39.874 --> 0:42:45.634 Cow would be intense. But I will also say, Google calendar, Oh. 0:42:44.794 --> 0:42:47.314 God, we've still got a calendar in the kitchen on 0:42:47.354 --> 0:42:47.874 the wall. 0:42:51.314 --> 0:42:55.154 Taylor Taylor. 0:42:56.794 --> 0:42:58.234 The blue is Travis's. 0:43:00.674 --> 0:43:02.234 But you look at all those things and you also 0:43:02.274 --> 0:43:05.393 go two and a half years, you don't have kids. 0:43:05.634 --> 0:43:07.514 Do they have a shared mortgage. Yet I don't think 0:43:07.554 --> 0:43:11.714 they'll have a mortgage, will they, Amelia? Maybe mortgage? 0:43:11.754 --> 0:43:13.194 Imagine Taylor Travis. 0:43:12.914 --> 0:43:16.433 At the back in there fight for alone. I don't 0:43:16.434 --> 0:43:18.913 think that they're going to be there. So are there 0:43:18.994 --> 0:43:21.554 less things to fight about when you're Travis. 0:43:21.314 --> 0:43:24.634 And oh yeah, I think that Clooney said, what would 0:43:24.674 --> 0:43:25.474 we fight about? 0:43:25.634 --> 0:43:28.393 Question back? That must be one of the most privileged 0:43:28.474 --> 0:43:32.074 statement questions we fight about. 0:43:33.074 --> 0:43:36.034 Can you w the bench? I'll just get out cleaner. 0:43:36.074 --> 0:43:37.074 Who's right here to do it? 0:43:37.234 --> 0:43:37.514 Great? 0:43:37.914 --> 0:43:40.953 George could be like, I hate human rights exactly. 0:43:42.514 --> 0:43:44.873 Oh my god, Ama, you're too beautiful. Stop it. 0:43:45.834 --> 0:43:51.634 I hate fighting, hate fighting, which is why my preferred 0:43:51.714 --> 0:43:56.114 method is the much more insidious, toxic, passive aggressive fighting. 0:43:56.234 --> 0:43:58.794 So instead of saying that you haven't cleaned the. 0:43:58.794 --> 0:44:04.074 Bench, you say something like, interesting, how you chose to 0:44:04.234 --> 0:44:06.714 just leave that little thing that like, you know, or whatever. 0:44:06.474 --> 0:44:07.674 It is, which is a discussion. 0:44:07.794 --> 0:44:09.794 It's a discussion, exactly. 0:44:10.314 --> 0:44:13.634 Interesting, How you still don't know where this goes in 0:44:13.634 --> 0:44:13.993 the cobo. 0:44:14.154 --> 0:44:16.953 That's an observation, exactly, that's not a fire. 0:44:17.514 --> 0:44:18.074 Interesting. 0:44:18.154 --> 0:44:21.634 How you didn't put the lid back on the toothpaste. Yes, 0:44:21.914 --> 0:44:25.434 that's just an invitation to explore your different techniques exactly 0:44:25.874 --> 0:44:29.314 paste management. I think pass agnes is good. 0:44:29.834 --> 0:44:30.314 I don't know. 0:44:30.674 --> 0:44:31.834 I think it's interesting. 0:44:31.914 --> 0:44:34.634 Tara from Amamea wrote, as you said that this was 0:44:34.674 --> 0:44:37.474 a red flag and that she was worried about it 0:44:37.514 --> 0:44:40.393 because she said, a huge part of any relationship is 0:44:40.474 --> 0:44:44.194 conflict resolution and learning each other's fight styles. But what 0:44:44.314 --> 0:44:46.594 if your two people who hate fighting? Are you supposed 0:44:46.594 --> 0:44:49.674 to force yourself to fight? Because it's important to know, 0:44:49.794 --> 0:44:53.474 maybe your fight style is to your point before Amelia hiding, 0:44:53.914 --> 0:44:57.714 my fight style might be retreat, not attack. 0:44:57.994 --> 0:45:00.393 You know what I don't think Esther Perel is a 0:45:00.514 --> 0:45:05.034 huge fan of retreat. What's passive aggression with retreat? Well, 0:45:05.074 --> 0:45:06.194 she has this interesting question. 0:45:06.234 --> 0:45:08.114 She says, what most people don't realize is that you're 0:45:08.114 --> 0:45:10.674 not actually fighting about money or commitment or who does 0:45:10.714 --> 0:45:13.594 the housework. What you're actually fighting about is a lack. 0:45:13.394 --> 0:45:15.714 Of affection, respect, power. 0:45:15.514 --> 0:45:18.234 Or some combination of the three, just the two lit 0:45:19.194 --> 0:45:21.194 Another way of thinking about this is that there's this 0:45:21.234 --> 0:45:24.274 sort of like adage that every couple has the same 0:45:24.354 --> 0:45:27.433 three fights and it just manifests in different ways. I 0:45:27.674 --> 0:45:29.513 very much agree with that, and I guess those same 0:45:29.554 --> 0:45:32.513 three fights are affection, respect, and power, And now even 0:45:32.594 --> 0:45:34.873 Taylor and Travis and George and a mile are having 0:45:34.914 --> 0:45:37.913 to navigate relationship dynamics where those things are flowing back 0:45:37.954 --> 0:45:38.394 and forth. 0:45:38.474 --> 0:45:40.873 This is about our definition of fight, yeah, and it's 0:45:40.914 --> 0:45:44.234 about our definition of argument. I reckon that if you 0:45:44.834 --> 0:45:50.234 are the child of parents who fought really openly, you 0:45:50.274 --> 0:45:53.194 felt like you had to walk on eggshells. Sometimes I 0:45:53.194 --> 0:45:56.794 think it's just temperament. You don't like to escalate, then 0:45:57.274 --> 0:45:59.674 you might resist going to that. And I don't think 0:45:59.714 --> 0:46:01.874 any way is necessarily better or worse. 0:46:02.554 --> 0:46:05.394 Because don't you have a degree in psychology. 0:46:06.594 --> 0:46:11.114 Us has a degree in psychology, And because you're identical twins. 0:46:11.114 --> 0:46:14.274 If she's got a degree in psychology, do you psychology? 0:46:14.314 --> 0:46:15.513 I thought it was a psychologist. 0:46:15.554 --> 0:46:17.234 I have a master's in history. 0:46:17.594 --> 0:46:19.834 Gender study, gender studies. There you go. 0:46:19.914 --> 0:46:22.714 Both of them didn't give me a lot of clarity 0:46:22.754 --> 0:46:25.913 on fighting, but I will say it did make me 0:46:25.994 --> 0:46:29.674 good at arguing. And therefore, if you're I remember thinking 0:46:29.674 --> 0:46:31.473 this at the time, George Cloone is just a clever 0:46:31.554 --> 0:46:33.754 man not to fight with a human rights law. Yes, 0:46:34.234 --> 0:46:35.274 that's what you just need to know. 0:46:35.274 --> 0:46:38.634 You so true and son, who's the better fighter between 0:46:38.674 --> 0:46:40.393 Taylor and Travis. 0:46:40.474 --> 0:46:42.314 Taylor by about a thousand. 0:46:42.354 --> 0:46:43.074 He's a poet. 0:46:44.074 --> 0:46:45.954 Do remember that interview where. 0:46:45.754 --> 0:46:48.794 He probably had some kind of brain She. 0:46:48.954 --> 0:46:51.154 Used a couple of long words and he went wow. 0:46:53.434 --> 0:46:54.354 But I reckon that you. 0:46:54.314 --> 0:46:57.154 Can sort of disagree with things and there can be 0:46:57.194 --> 0:46:59.834 points of tension in the relationship, but you wouldn't define 0:46:59.834 --> 0:47:03.714 that as a fight, like there can be discussions. I 0:47:03.754 --> 0:47:06.394 would think that in my own relationship, like we don't 0:47:06.674 --> 0:47:12.034 like fighting, don't feel so, and even my I don't 0:47:12.074 --> 0:47:14.594 fight with my mum, that doesn't mean that we don't 0:47:14.634 --> 0:47:18.994 have moments of probably what would be considered conflict. And 0:47:18.994 --> 0:47:22.114 I think that conflict management evolves in in that way. 0:47:22.154 --> 0:47:24.714 But the idea that if you're I just think we 0:47:24.834 --> 0:47:26.913 use the term red flag too liberally. Now we just 0:47:26.994 --> 0:47:29.114 stick it on everything, and it's like, if your biggest 0:47:29.114 --> 0:47:32.114 problem is that you get along too well, I think. 0:47:31.954 --> 0:47:34.874 You're so you're not worried for them, You're not losing 0:47:34.954 --> 0:47:36.994 any not losing a second. 0:47:37.394 --> 0:47:38.234 I'm selfish of you. 0:47:38.674 --> 0:47:41.594 I know people who love fighting and it's their dynamic 0:47:41.674 --> 0:47:45.354 and their relationship. They shout that good and they're shouting 0:47:45.354 --> 0:47:47.433 at each other and it gets all the sexual juicies going, 0:47:47.394 --> 0:47:49.714 and they love it, and if you're around them, as 0:47:49.754 --> 0:47:52.714 someone who hates fighting, you're very uncomfortable. I get very 0:47:52.794 --> 0:47:55.754 uncomfortable if people are fighting. I get very uncomfortable with retreats. 0:47:55.754 --> 0:47:58.194 See that doesn't mean they're right and I'm wrong. It's 0:47:58.274 --> 0:47:59.234 just different strokes. 0:47:59.234 --> 0:48:01.874 But do you feel like that kind of relationship where 0:48:01.914 --> 0:48:04.114 you are even observing the fighting. It's that sort of 0:48:04.154 --> 0:48:06.834 prevalent that people in their lives are watching them fight. 0:48:07.634 --> 0:48:10.553 That cannot actually be good for the relationship. 0:48:10.754 --> 0:48:12.913 So then to be fighting that much. 0:48:12.794 --> 0:48:15.794 No, But I think people would say we're getting things 0:48:15.834 --> 0:48:18.114 out in the open. We'd say, what we mean, we 0:48:18.194 --> 0:48:20.754 clear the air. You know how, there are some people 0:48:20.754 --> 0:48:22.873 who cry easily, and if you're not a cryer, you 0:48:22.914 --> 0:48:25.234 see them crying, you're like, oh my god. Yeah, you 0:48:25.274 --> 0:48:27.074 take it really seriously. And then you get to know 0:48:27.114 --> 0:48:28.913 them and you realize that it's not a big deal 0:48:28.914 --> 0:48:31.474 that they're crying. I think for some people, shouting and 0:48:31.674 --> 0:48:34.074 arguing is like that too, So you're thinking, oh, these 0:48:34.114 --> 0:48:35.834 guys are going to get divorced. They're fighting, and for 0:48:35.874 --> 0:48:38.034 them it's just Tuesday. You know, It's like I think 0:48:38.434 --> 0:48:41.393 different dynamics. But I think if you, as to your point, Jesse, 0:48:41.514 --> 0:48:44.194 if various things in your life made you feel like 0:48:44.274 --> 0:48:46.993 fighting is unsafe, that someone might leave at any time, 0:48:47.074 --> 0:48:48.314 like you're not going to be fighting. 0:48:48.634 --> 0:48:51.594 I read this theory. It's called the Little Fox's theory 0:48:51.634 --> 0:48:54.114 of couple fights, and it's a bit some quote from 0:48:54.114 --> 0:48:56.554 the Bible, the Fox's reference, But basically what it means 0:48:56.994 --> 0:48:58.834 is that most couples, when you get down to it, 0:48:58.874 --> 0:49:01.553 if you said, Amelia, explained to me your last fight 0:49:01.714 --> 0:49:05.714 with your partner, it would be over nothing like I 0:49:05.714 --> 0:49:06.474 wouldn't understand. 0:49:06.554 --> 0:49:09.674 Oh, the opposite of that idea that you're actually fighting 0:49:09.714 --> 0:49:11.034 about affection respect. 0:49:11.234 --> 0:49:13.993 Which you know what you probably are. That's the underlying thing. 0:49:14.114 --> 0:49:16.634 But in terms of what you're of speaking to a 0:49:16.634 --> 0:49:19.674 friend recently who had a fight with his partner, it's 0:49:19.714 --> 0:49:23.354 like a misinterpretation of a thing. And then someone snapped. 0:49:23.674 --> 0:49:26.714 The biggest fight Luker and I've ever had was when 0:49:27.034 --> 0:49:29.594 Luna was really little. It was late at night and 0:49:29.634 --> 0:49:32.434 I said you're up. I meant you're up, as in 0:49:32.514 --> 0:49:35.393 you're awake, could you take the baby? And he heard 0:49:35.434 --> 0:49:39.634 it as you're up, like look at you. Finally around 0:49:39.634 --> 0:49:42.274 to look after the baby, and it was this complete 0:49:42.314 --> 0:49:48.074 miscommunication of time that was about absolutely nothing. But underlying 0:49:48.114 --> 0:49:50.354 it was just two people that were really tired or 0:49:50.394 --> 0:49:53.634 whatever it is. And I think that often those little 0:49:53.634 --> 0:49:55.513 fights are about nothing at all. 0:49:55.634 --> 0:49:58.394 There is another option we haven't considered that maybe George 0:49:58.434 --> 0:50:02.873 Clooney Travis Kelcey are perfect people who always put the 0:50:02.994 --> 0:50:06.514 lid back on the toothpaste, who never give their partners 0:50:06.554 --> 0:50:08.913 any reason and to be angry with them in any way. 0:50:09.114 --> 0:50:10.154 Is this a possibility? 0:50:10.234 --> 0:50:14.473 Yeah, and seem pretty agreeable and they married perfect people. 0:50:15.274 --> 0:50:15.794 That's it. 0:50:16.274 --> 0:50:18.634 Maybe that's the life hack that we all forgot. 0:50:18.714 --> 0:50:21.114 I wonder if Brent says this about me, because Clooney 0:50:21.154 --> 0:50:22.993 said neither of us are going to win. I've met 0:50:22.994 --> 0:50:25.954 this incredible woman. She's beautiful and smart, and she stands 0:50:25.954 --> 0:50:28.394 for all the most important things I believe in the world. 0:50:28.634 --> 0:50:30.834 And I can't believe how lucky I am. So what 0:50:30.914 --> 0:50:32.114 am I going to fight about? 0:50:32.314 --> 0:50:36.514 I reckon Breds, you stand for Hollywayen Right, is George cleaning? 0:50:36.554 --> 0:50:39.714 I'm here for George. Well, this has been fun. 0:50:39.834 --> 0:50:42.513 Friends out louders, thank you for having us in your 0:50:42.554 --> 0:50:45.074 ears on this Monday don't forget, of course, that you 0:50:45.114 --> 0:50:46.194 can watch us on YouTube. 0:50:46.354 --> 0:50:47.714 We'll talk to you tomorrow. 0:50:48.034 --> 0:50:56.274 Bye. Mum and mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of the 0:50:56.354 --> 0:50:58.594 land on which we have recorded this podcast.