1
00:00:08,234 --> 00:00:10,953
Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

2
00:00:16,194 --> 00:00:18,834
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mom and Mia out Loud. It's

3
00:00:18,834 --> 00:00:21,714
Speaker 2: what women are actually talking about on Monday, the eighth

4
00:00:21,754 --> 00:00:22,434
Speaker 2: of December.

5
00:00:22,514 --> 00:00:25,034
Speaker 3: I'm Holly wayIn Wright, I'm Amelia Laster and.

6
00:00:25,034 --> 00:00:26,074
Speaker 4: I'm Jesse Stephens.

7
00:00:26,234 --> 00:00:30,514
Speaker 2: And here's what's on our agenda for today. Why Australian

8
00:00:30,554 --> 00:00:34,194
Speaker 2: women are still obsessed with Oprah Winfrey at least if

9
00:00:34,234 --> 00:00:37,114
Speaker 2: my social media feed from the weekend is anything to

10
00:00:37,114 --> 00:00:37,714
Speaker 2: be believed.

11
00:00:38,114 --> 00:00:40,553
Speaker 5: Plus, this is the week, this is the week that

12
00:00:40,593 --> 00:00:44,354
Speaker 5: the social media band takes effect. Why do I suddenly

13
00:00:44,434 --> 00:00:45,953
Speaker 5: have complicated feelings about it?

14
00:00:46,513 --> 00:00:50,913
Speaker 4: And apparently Travis Kelcey confessed to a giant red flag

15
00:00:51,034 --> 00:00:54,754
Speaker 4: in his relationship with Taylor Swift And I'm not so convinced.

16
00:00:55,434 --> 00:00:58,794
Speaker 4: But first, Jesse Stevens, in case you missed it, it's

17
00:00:58,794 --> 00:01:02,273
Speaker 4: the time of the year. Wherefore about eleven seconds, a

18
00:01:02,354 --> 00:01:05,834
Speaker 4: dictionary and a design service become surprisingly relevant. They have

19
00:01:05,874 --> 00:01:07,914
Speaker 4: their moment in the sun, we all make a fuss

20
00:01:07,914 --> 00:01:11,393
Speaker 4: and forget about them for twelve months. The Oxford Dictionary

21
00:01:11,394 --> 00:01:13,673
Speaker 4: has declared that their word of the year for twenty

22
00:01:13,794 --> 00:01:16,154
Speaker 4: twenty five is rage bait.

23
00:01:16,074 --> 00:01:17,994
Speaker 3: Which is interesting because I thought that was two words.

24
00:01:18,154 --> 00:01:19,914
Speaker 4: Yes, well last year was brain rot.

25
00:01:19,994 --> 00:01:21,754
Speaker 3: It's true also two words.

26
00:01:22,034 --> 00:01:24,634
Speaker 4: There are allegations that this is a classic example of

27
00:01:24,714 --> 00:01:27,634
Speaker 4: rage bait, given they've broken their own rules.

28
00:01:28,034 --> 00:01:28,994
Speaker 1: That's so true.

29
00:01:29,314 --> 00:01:31,874
Speaker 4: You can't upset the dictionary people like know your audience.

30
00:01:32,034 --> 00:01:35,393
Speaker 4: The dictionary people are really annoyed. But use of the term,

31
00:01:35,554 --> 00:01:37,874
Speaker 4: let's call it a term has tripled in the last

32
00:01:37,914 --> 00:01:42,594
Speaker 4: twelve months, and the president of Oxford Languages says that

33
00:01:42,634 --> 00:01:45,034
Speaker 4: the term brain rot from last year and rage bait

34
00:01:45,074 --> 00:01:47,834
Speaker 4: from this year, they sort of reveal how the digital

35
00:01:47,834 --> 00:01:52,394
Speaker 4: world are reshaping how we think and more generally, our behavior.

36
00:01:52,754 --> 00:01:55,674
Speaker 4: The Internet used to work on curiosity gaps, used to

37
00:01:55,754 --> 00:01:59,034
Speaker 4: work on what we call clickbait, right, and now it's

38
00:01:59,074 --> 00:02:02,034
Speaker 4: all about baiting people with the strongest emotion that they

39
00:02:02,034 --> 00:02:05,994
Speaker 4: can possibly generate, which is rage. Do you think this

40
00:02:06,154 --> 00:02:07,874
Speaker 4: was the year of rage bait?

41
00:02:08,514 --> 00:02:11,514
Speaker 5: I don't think the human race is okay. Brain rot

42
00:02:11,594 --> 00:02:14,514
Speaker 5: last year, rage bait this year. I do think it

43
00:02:14,594 --> 00:02:17,914
Speaker 5: shows that we're getting more sophisticated in our understanding of

44
00:02:17,954 --> 00:02:19,754
Speaker 5: what the internet is doing to us.

45
00:02:19,994 --> 00:02:23,874
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, And I like that it's not meme terms.

46
00:02:23,954 --> 00:02:26,914
Speaker 4: Like for a while it was kind of these ridiculous,

47
00:02:26,954 --> 00:02:29,314
Speaker 4: not like skibbety toilet like that kind of stuff that

48
00:02:29,354 --> 00:02:29,634
Speaker 4: you go.

49
00:02:29,594 --> 00:02:30,954
Speaker 1: Through boat face.

50
00:02:31,234 --> 00:02:33,474
Speaker 4: Yeah, so for five seconds, maybe that's a meme. But

51
00:02:33,514 --> 00:02:36,034
Speaker 4: I think that these terms, as you say, describe a

52
00:02:36,074 --> 00:02:38,073
Speaker 4: real phenomenon, so I have more respect for them.

53
00:02:38,154 --> 00:02:41,514
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they speak to our increasing literacy. Right

54
00:02:41,594 --> 00:02:44,594
Speaker 2: to your point about us becoming more sophisticated, is that

55
00:02:44,674 --> 00:02:48,194
Speaker 2: hopefully by elevating and amplifying the term rage bait, we're

56
00:02:48,194 --> 00:02:50,594
Speaker 2: better at spotting it and that would be a good thing.

57
00:02:50,874 --> 00:02:53,954
Speaker 4: Yes, And we saw it like used in advertising this year.

58
00:02:54,034 --> 00:02:58,194
Speaker 4: Remember we talked about the Elf ad that awful matt Rice,

59
00:02:58,674 --> 00:03:01,554
Speaker 4: who they knew their audience didn't like because he'd made

60
00:03:01,594 --> 00:03:03,954
Speaker 4: a really off color domestic violence joke and they threw

61
00:03:04,034 --> 00:03:06,234
Speaker 4: him in the ad blew up. The other one was

62
00:03:06,274 --> 00:03:07,794
Speaker 4: the American Eagle, and there.

63
00:03:07,714 --> 00:03:11,434
Speaker 2: Was just maybe you could argue the pubic hair, mercant.

64
00:03:11,514 --> 00:03:12,394
Speaker 4: Skin rage bait.

65
00:03:12,434 --> 00:03:15,914
Speaker 2: There are some very good rage bait marketing techniques now.

66
00:03:15,954 --> 00:03:19,314
Speaker 5: But I've noticed in my group chats that the rage

67
00:03:19,314 --> 00:03:23,314
Speaker 5: bait cycle has abated a little bit. So for instance,

68
00:03:23,354 --> 00:03:26,634
Speaker 5: I used to have one group chat where we would

69
00:03:26,674 --> 00:03:28,634
Speaker 5: just send each other links that we knew would get

70
00:03:28,634 --> 00:03:31,474
Speaker 5: each other worked up about politics. It was called rage

71
00:03:31,474 --> 00:03:35,474
Speaker 5: bit and now that's thread. We've decided that we're not

72
00:03:35,514 --> 00:03:37,354
Speaker 5: going to do that anymore. And I think there is

73
00:03:37,394 --> 00:03:40,194
Speaker 5: a power in naming it and then recognizing, oh, all

74
00:03:40,194 --> 00:03:41,314
Speaker 5: I'm doing is rage baiting.

75
00:03:41,474 --> 00:03:44,914
Speaker 4: I'm being played. And that actually brings us to the

76
00:03:44,914 --> 00:03:49,194
Speaker 4: color of the year, right, which is kill me. Pantone,

77
00:03:49,194 --> 00:03:52,394
Speaker 4: which is a printing business, they declare every year their color.

78
00:03:52,434 --> 00:03:54,514
Speaker 4: Who can remember the color of twenty twenty five?

79
00:03:54,594 --> 00:03:55,794
Speaker 1: No, I'm obsessed with the colors.

80
00:03:55,834 --> 00:04:00,874
Speaker 4: It was brown, it's round, and I reckon, spot on,

81
00:04:01,154 --> 00:04:03,314
Speaker 4: I reckon, they nailed it. I saw a lot of

82
00:04:03,394 --> 00:04:07,274
Speaker 4: macka moose this year. The color of twenty twenty six

83
00:04:07,514 --> 00:04:14,074
Speaker 4: is white, specifically Cloud Dancer, which is described as a

84
00:04:14,114 --> 00:04:17,354
Speaker 4: lofty white that serves as a symbol of calming influence

85
00:04:17,674 --> 00:04:21,594
Speaker 4: in a society rediscovering the value of quiet reflection. So

86
00:04:21,873 --> 00:04:23,753
Speaker 4: what does the color of the year mean. It means

87
00:04:23,753 --> 00:04:25,434
Speaker 4: that we're going to be wearing it. It means it's

88
00:04:25,433 --> 00:04:27,313
Speaker 4: going to be the brand palette of a lot of

89
00:04:27,393 --> 00:04:30,433
Speaker 4: different places. It means celebrities and red carpets. It means

90
00:04:30,633 --> 00:04:33,033
Speaker 4: the color of your interiors. We're going to be seeing

91
00:04:33,073 --> 00:04:36,553
Speaker 4: it everywhere. I want to know if you are rage

92
00:04:36,594 --> 00:04:40,553
Speaker 4: baited that white is technically a shade, not a color.

93
00:04:41,834 --> 00:04:45,674
Speaker 2: I'm raged baited just by the whole idea because A

94
00:04:45,953 --> 00:04:48,674
Speaker 2: I can't wear white, so I feel like excluded. I

95
00:04:48,674 --> 00:04:51,753
Speaker 2: feel excluded in every way, like I can't wear white

96
00:04:51,753 --> 00:04:54,513
Speaker 2: because of my coloring, but I also just can't wear white.

97
00:04:54,674 --> 00:04:55,073
Speaker 5: I can't.

98
00:04:56,354 --> 00:04:57,193
Speaker 4: Yes, Yes, if.

99
00:04:57,113 --> 00:04:59,753
Speaker 2: I was wearing what Amelia was wearing now, I would

100
00:04:59,753 --> 00:05:01,753
Speaker 2: have spilt something down it, even if there was nothing

101
00:05:02,234 --> 00:05:04,553
Speaker 2: near me. Yesterday, you know, I was influenced by you, Jesse,

102
00:05:04,633 --> 00:05:06,873
Speaker 2: And over the weekend I bought one of those stripe

103
00:05:06,873 --> 00:05:10,393
Speaker 2: tea yeah, you know, the viral strapergy shirts, and mine

104
00:05:10,474 --> 00:05:14,714
Speaker 2: is navy with like a yellow stripe. Was literally wearing

105
00:05:14,794 --> 00:05:16,954
Speaker 2: it for five minutes coffee down at all the yellow

106
00:05:16,993 --> 00:05:17,993
Speaker 2: stripes covered in coffee.

107
00:05:18,034 --> 00:05:18,994
Speaker 3: That shirt is dead to me.

108
00:05:18,993 --> 00:05:21,233
Speaker 2: Now and I'm a properly grown woman and I still

109
00:05:21,274 --> 00:05:22,313
Speaker 2: can't wear white now.

110
00:05:22,354 --> 00:05:24,394
Speaker 5: All this means is that bibbs are back, bibs are

111
00:05:24,393 --> 00:05:25,953
Speaker 5: gonna be bibs.

112
00:05:26,034 --> 00:05:30,714
Speaker 4: I love that. Or like a really enriching cultural conversation

113
00:05:30,993 --> 00:05:34,234
Speaker 4: about stain removal, like how to get things out of

114
00:05:34,794 --> 00:05:37,034
Speaker 4: your clothes. Apparently. I did read an article that said,

115
00:05:37,553 --> 00:05:39,753
Speaker 4: on Christmas Day, we're all wearing white.

116
00:05:40,193 --> 00:05:41,113
Speaker 3: I'm not Amelia.

117
00:05:41,274 --> 00:05:42,954
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of controversy over this.

118
00:05:43,034 --> 00:05:45,553
Speaker 5: I love pantone color of the year, obsessed with it,

119
00:05:45,674 --> 00:05:48,433
Speaker 5: generally by a pair of slippers in whatever color it

120
00:05:48,474 --> 00:05:50,794
Speaker 5: is to set a tone for the year ahead. There

121
00:05:50,834 --> 00:05:53,034
Speaker 5: hasn't been this much controversy with the color of the

122
00:05:53,113 --> 00:05:55,794
Speaker 5: year since twenty twenty one, when they named two colors.

123
00:05:55,794 --> 00:05:57,993
Speaker 5: Do you remember that they named gray and yellow and

124
00:05:58,034 --> 00:05:59,553
Speaker 5: everyone said, hang on, it's meant to.

125
00:05:59,474 --> 00:06:00,513
Speaker 1: Be color of the year.

126
00:06:01,234 --> 00:06:03,634
Speaker 5: But people are saying that they're quite tone deaf, or

127
00:06:03,674 --> 00:06:06,954
Speaker 5: they're calling them pantone deaf. I'm sorry, I didn't make

128
00:06:07,313 --> 00:06:09,273
Speaker 5: up and it did take me in an alarmingly long

129
00:06:09,313 --> 00:06:11,393
Speaker 5: time to get that joke, so I'll repeat it again,

130
00:06:11,714 --> 00:06:14,354
Speaker 5: pan tone death. Some people are saying that the color

131
00:06:14,393 --> 00:06:17,553
Speaker 5: evokes white supremacy at a time when right wing parties

132
00:06:17,553 --> 00:06:19,914
Speaker 5: are on the rise around the world. Others are saying

133
00:06:19,914 --> 00:06:22,873
Speaker 5: it's a recession indicator because we can't afford color anymore.

134
00:06:23,313 --> 00:06:26,914
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, No, because wearing white is a rich

135
00:06:26,953 --> 00:06:29,794
Speaker 2: person's game. Everybody knows that it means that you can

136
00:06:29,834 --> 00:06:33,514
Speaker 2: afford to have your clothes professionally cleaned and your sheets

137
00:06:33,834 --> 00:06:36,993
Speaker 2: professionally cleaned. Rich people wear white a lot. Jerry halliwell

138
00:06:37,073 --> 00:06:40,513
Speaker 2: only wears white and she's married to one of those richefwondu. Yeah,

139
00:06:40,553 --> 00:06:42,354
Speaker 2: can you remind me what the name of it is again?

140
00:06:42,393 --> 00:06:42,713
Speaker 3: Please?

141
00:06:42,914 --> 00:06:44,273
Speaker 1: It is cooler.

142
00:06:45,714 --> 00:06:47,313
Speaker 3: Did not have to refer to notes.

143
00:06:47,594 --> 00:06:49,474
Speaker 4: I believe it is a cool white rather than a

144
00:06:49,474 --> 00:06:49,954
Speaker 4: warm white.

145
00:06:49,993 --> 00:06:51,594
Speaker 2: It is one of my favorite things to do is

146
00:06:51,633 --> 00:06:53,233
Speaker 2: in Bunnings, is to go and look at the paint

147
00:06:53,234 --> 00:06:55,113
Speaker 2: wall and look at all the shades of white and

148
00:06:55,154 --> 00:06:57,993
Speaker 2: try and boggle my brain about their minuscule differences.

149
00:06:58,073 --> 00:06:59,794
Speaker 5: And if you've ever shot for a wedding dress, you

150
00:06:59,834 --> 00:07:02,234
Speaker 5: do know that there are actually which you haven't hold

151
00:07:02,234 --> 00:07:05,234
Speaker 5: is sorry, but there are multiple.

152
00:07:07,193 --> 00:07:08,314
Speaker 1: Get married because you knew that.

153
00:07:08,313 --> 00:07:11,713
Speaker 4: Why it wasn't Mum says, why it's not a color?

154
00:07:11,754 --> 00:07:12,354
Speaker 4: She wore gold?

155
00:07:12,594 --> 00:07:14,914
Speaker 3: No very nice? Of course she did go on steep.

156
00:07:16,754 --> 00:07:19,954
Speaker 5: The world is watching Australia this week because on Wednesday,

157
00:07:20,194 --> 00:07:23,554
Speaker 5: the social media ban finally comes into effect. Now, if

158
00:07:23,554 --> 00:07:25,393
Speaker 5: you're anything like me, I feel like this has been

159
00:07:25,393 --> 00:07:28,754
Speaker 5: coming for such a long time, and this Wednesday here, this.

160
00:07:29,074 --> 00:07:31,874
Speaker 3: Wednesday, like Christmas for some of us friends.

161
00:07:32,434 --> 00:07:34,194
Speaker 5: Now the Quikie has your covered on the nuts and

162
00:07:34,194 --> 00:07:36,354
Speaker 5: bolts of what is happening, and there are a lot

163
00:07:36,393 --> 00:07:37,994
Speaker 5: of nuts and bolts in terms of how this is

164
00:07:38,034 --> 00:07:41,114
Speaker 5: going to be implemented. They also have an interview with

165
00:07:41,194 --> 00:07:44,354
Speaker 5: the teenagers who are challenging this ban in the High Court.

166
00:07:44,674 --> 00:07:46,833
Speaker 1: You can hear that on the QUICKI tomorrow. But I

167
00:07:46,914 --> 00:07:49,674
Speaker 1: wanted to check in on how we're all feeling.

168
00:07:49,354 --> 00:07:51,234
Speaker 5: About it, because I've been on a bit of a

169
00:07:51,474 --> 00:07:54,754
Speaker 5: roller coaster of emotions about this ban. At first, I

170
00:07:54,834 --> 00:07:57,794
Speaker 5: felt real unbridled joy and pride in the fact that

171
00:07:57,874 --> 00:08:00,234
Speaker 5: Australia is really leading the world in this, and other

172
00:08:00,274 --> 00:08:04,434
Speaker 5: countries Malaysia, Indonesia, France, Denmark, they're all considering doing exactly

173
00:08:04,434 --> 00:08:07,434
Speaker 5: the same thing. Chris Pratt, he has a movie he's

174
00:08:07,474 --> 00:08:09,634
Speaker 5: been talking about how great he thinks the social media

175
00:08:09,674 --> 00:08:12,274
Speaker 5: ban is. You know, the world is looking at us

176
00:08:12,314 --> 00:08:14,754
Speaker 5: and is cheering us on in large parts of it.

177
00:08:15,234 --> 00:08:18,274
Speaker 5: But in the last i'd say the last couple of weeks,

178
00:08:18,554 --> 00:08:21,833
Speaker 5: I've started to hear some arguments that have given me

179
00:08:21,914 --> 00:08:26,034
Speaker 5: pause about this ban. One of them came from the

180
00:08:26,074 --> 00:08:27,913
Speaker 5: Sidney Monty Herald newspaper which.

181
00:08:27,754 --> 00:08:32,873
Speaker 1: Reported today that a full two thirds.

182
00:08:33,154 --> 00:08:36,914
Speaker 5: Of parents are going to find ways to get around

183
00:08:36,914 --> 00:08:40,634
Speaker 5: this ban. And I hadn't even considered that there were

184
00:08:40,714 --> 00:08:43,034
Speaker 5: ways to get around the band, But of course Holly's

185
00:08:43,074 --> 00:08:46,194
Speaker 5: been implying to me that there are many loopholes and

186
00:08:46,274 --> 00:08:48,234
Speaker 5: many ways in which parents are just going to say,

187
00:08:48,314 --> 00:08:51,154
Speaker 5: I can't fight this fight with my teenager, I can't

188
00:08:51,194 --> 00:08:53,834
Speaker 5: pull an addict away from something, and.

189
00:08:53,754 --> 00:08:54,754
Speaker 1: Look, I should say that.

190
00:08:54,834 --> 00:08:57,674
Speaker 5: Albow, in response to this kind of criticism, says, it

191
00:08:57,714 --> 00:08:59,874
Speaker 5: was never meant to be perfectly enforced. It was meant

192
00:08:59,914 --> 00:09:02,314
Speaker 5: to start conversations, and it was meant to change a

193
00:09:02,394 --> 00:09:05,114
Speaker 5: social norm over time. But it does kind of make

194
00:09:05,154 --> 00:09:08,594
Speaker 5: me think that it's being undermined little bit by parents. Holly,

195
00:09:08,914 --> 00:09:10,554
Speaker 5: what do you think? You know?

196
00:09:10,634 --> 00:09:13,474
Speaker 2: I've been dying to talk about this every episode. I'm like,

197
00:09:13,554 --> 00:09:14,834
Speaker 2: can we talk about it yet?

198
00:09:15,634 --> 00:09:16,194
Speaker 3: Like stop it?

199
00:09:16,754 --> 00:09:19,194
Speaker 2: Just full disclosure, because if you are a regular out louder,

200
00:09:19,234 --> 00:09:21,754
Speaker 2: you would have heard my voice last week reading some

201
00:09:21,914 --> 00:09:25,594
Speaker 2: ads from the federal government about the social media delay

202
00:09:25,594 --> 00:09:28,274
Speaker 2: as they calling it, and I agreed to do those

203
00:09:28,314 --> 00:09:30,914
Speaker 2: because I am a supporter. Like full disclosure, I think

204
00:09:30,914 --> 00:09:34,394
Speaker 2: it's great, but I think it's complicated, and I think

205
00:09:34,434 --> 00:09:39,034
Speaker 2: we have to be really mindful in the next few weeks, months,

206
00:09:39,034 --> 00:09:42,714
Speaker 2: whatever of where the criticisms about this are coming from, right,

207
00:09:42,754 --> 00:09:45,594
Speaker 2: Because one thing you've got to remember, and we're not

208
00:09:45,594 --> 00:09:47,834
Speaker 2: getting into the nuts and bots, as you say, But

209
00:09:48,034 --> 00:09:51,554
Speaker 2: the pressure in this case is on the tech companies

210
00:09:51,634 --> 00:09:55,514
Speaker 2: to stop kids getting on their apps, rather than it's

211
00:09:55,554 --> 00:09:58,434
Speaker 2: not supposed to be to stop parents from letting their

212
00:09:58,514 --> 00:09:59,434
Speaker 2: kids get on the apps.

213
00:09:59,434 --> 00:10:01,234
Speaker 3: Do you understand that distinction, right?

214
00:10:01,314 --> 00:10:04,594
Speaker 2: So it's not like if you have a fifteen year

215
00:10:04,634 --> 00:10:07,074
Speaker 2: old and your fifteen year old is still on snap

216
00:10:07,194 --> 00:10:09,434
Speaker 2: Chat next week, you're going to go to prison. That's

217
00:10:09,514 --> 00:10:11,874
Speaker 2: not what's going to happen. And Nora are they and

218
00:10:11,914 --> 00:10:13,554
Speaker 2: you're not going to get fined, and nor are they.

219
00:10:13,634 --> 00:10:16,434
Speaker 2: The idea is to pressure the tech companies to make

220
00:10:16,474 --> 00:10:19,594
Speaker 2: it much harder, if not impossible, for kids under sixteen

221
00:10:19,634 --> 00:10:22,874
Speaker 2: to get online. Now that's not something the tech companies

222
00:10:22,874 --> 00:10:23,434
Speaker 2: are fans of.

223
00:10:23,594 --> 00:10:25,354
Speaker 3: Right. Ninety nine percent of.

224
00:10:25,314 --> 00:10:29,034
Speaker 2: Australian teenagers use some form of social media ninety nine percent,

225
00:10:29,474 --> 00:10:32,594
Speaker 2: So that is a lot of customers who are being

226
00:10:32,634 --> 00:10:35,953
Speaker 2: served ads all the time. So there are lots of

227
00:10:35,994 --> 00:10:38,794
Speaker 2: sort of vested interests without wanting to sound too conspiratorial

228
00:10:38,834 --> 00:10:41,354
Speaker 2: about this, who are not mad keen on this working,

229
00:10:41,834 --> 00:10:43,514
Speaker 2: And so I think we have to be mindful of that.

230
00:10:43,874 --> 00:10:46,354
Speaker 2: But back to the point, Amelia, of whether parents are

231
00:10:46,354 --> 00:10:50,474
Speaker 2: going to help their kids get around this man, they

232
00:10:50,634 --> 00:10:55,114
Speaker 2: definitely are going to because so my kids are exactly

233
00:10:55,114 --> 00:10:57,274
Speaker 2: in the bull's eye for this right thirteen and fifteen,

234
00:10:57,514 --> 00:11:00,314
Speaker 2: and me and my friends and most of my friends

235
00:11:00,314 --> 00:11:02,714
Speaker 2: I guess who you know I see regularly, their kids

236
00:11:02,714 --> 00:11:05,154
Speaker 2: are somewhere in that ballpark two, probably aged between like

237
00:11:05,234 --> 00:11:08,234
Speaker 2: nine and sixteen, And say, all the time, what did

238
00:11:08,274 --> 00:11:11,114
Speaker 2: we fight about before there were phones? What did parents

239
00:11:11,154 --> 00:11:12,114
Speaker 2: and kids.

240
00:11:11,954 --> 00:11:13,394
Speaker 3: Argue about before there were phones?

241
00:11:13,434 --> 00:11:16,714
Speaker 2: Because it is the biggest source of contention in every

242
00:11:16,754 --> 00:11:21,554
Speaker 2: house I know, including my own screen time, phone usage, addiction,

243
00:11:21,994 --> 00:11:24,474
Speaker 2: social media, all of those things are the things that

244
00:11:24,554 --> 00:11:27,194
Speaker 2: we have most conflict about. And so in a way,

245
00:11:27,274 --> 00:11:29,594
Speaker 2: you'd think, oh, well, how great, because now you don't

246
00:11:29,634 --> 00:11:31,714
Speaker 2: have to row about it because it's just illegal for

247
00:11:31,754 --> 00:11:32,714
Speaker 2: them to be on YouTube.

248
00:11:32,754 --> 00:11:34,274
Speaker 1: But that's exactly what I thought.

249
00:11:34,274 --> 00:11:37,953
Speaker 2: But that's not the case, because what it means is

250
00:11:38,754 --> 00:11:42,034
Speaker 2: you are now going to be fighting about them getting

251
00:11:42,074 --> 00:11:44,994
Speaker 2: off those things. The thing is Although I'm a big

252
00:11:44,994 --> 00:11:47,754
Speaker 2: supporter of the ban, I've never been a really big

253
00:11:47,794 --> 00:11:50,754
Speaker 2: supporter of the Jonathan Height kind of argument that really

254
00:11:50,834 --> 00:11:53,554
Speaker 2: parents just all need to get together and agree. Me

255
00:11:53,634 --> 00:11:55,354
Speaker 2: and all my friends are not going to buy our kids'

256
00:11:55,354 --> 00:11:59,754
Speaker 2: phones because I think it's a really simplistic idea, given

257
00:11:59,794 --> 00:12:02,034
Speaker 2: all the forces that are coming at us, that if

258
00:12:02,114 --> 00:12:05,394
Speaker 2: parents were just just grew a pair and told their

259
00:12:05,474 --> 00:12:07,394
Speaker 2: kids to get off phones, we wouldn't have a problem.

260
00:12:07,514 --> 00:12:10,714
Speaker 2: I think this is a really complicated relationship that teens

261
00:12:10,714 --> 00:12:14,114
Speaker 2: have with these platforms. We've just been handed a really

262
00:12:14,114 --> 00:12:16,674
Speaker 2: good tool to be able to help us get the

263
00:12:16,714 --> 00:12:20,154
Speaker 2: kids off them. But I think that the great benefit

264
00:12:20,194 --> 00:12:22,794
Speaker 2: of this ban is actually not going to be fifteen

265
00:12:22,834 --> 00:12:24,674
Speaker 2: year olds. It's going to be for the twelve year

266
00:12:24,674 --> 00:12:26,674
Speaker 2: olds who are never going to get on these platforms

267
00:12:26,674 --> 00:12:28,714
Speaker 2: in the first place, or the nine year old who

268
00:12:28,794 --> 00:12:31,034
Speaker 2: are not going to be handed a phone at eleven

269
00:12:31,034 --> 00:12:33,754
Speaker 2: and given Snapchat anymore. I think that actually the biggest

270
00:12:33,794 --> 00:12:37,034
Speaker 2: benefit is going to come from those kids rather than

271
00:12:37,074 --> 00:12:38,514
Speaker 2: for the kids who are already in the eye of

272
00:12:38,554 --> 00:12:38,994
Speaker 2: the storm.

273
00:12:39,274 --> 00:12:42,914
Speaker 4: That's an interesting idea because even smoking right, like, if

274
00:12:42,914 --> 00:12:44,714
Speaker 4: you look at they were all different there were public

275
00:12:44,794 --> 00:12:49,713
Speaker 4: health campaigns, and there was the cost and almost the

276
00:12:49,874 --> 00:12:55,754
Speaker 4: social backlash towards people who smoked. And that didn't happen overnight.

277
00:12:55,834 --> 00:12:58,474
Speaker 4: It didn't happen with one piece of legislation or one policy.

278
00:12:58,914 --> 00:13:02,394
Speaker 4: It happened gradually, and so a lot of the arguments

279
00:13:02,394 --> 00:13:05,114
Speaker 4: that I hear against it. I think about alcohol, you

280
00:13:05,154 --> 00:13:08,954
Speaker 4: can say, oh, well, can technically go out and buy

281
00:13:08,954 --> 00:13:10,674
Speaker 4: alcohol for a seventeen year old. What if the parent

282
00:13:10,714 --> 00:13:12,194
Speaker 4: wants to have a glass of wine in their house

283
00:13:12,194 --> 00:13:14,994
Speaker 4: with their seventeen year old, What if they're seventeen and eleven,

284
00:13:15,194 --> 00:13:19,234
Speaker 4: Like that's been going on forever, and you negotiate it

285
00:13:19,274 --> 00:13:22,754
Speaker 4: as a family. But the fact that it is sort

286
00:13:22,794 --> 00:13:26,554
Speaker 4: of enshrined in law that that's not something that a

287
00:13:26,594 --> 00:13:30,914
Speaker 4: seventeen year old is allowed to do is in the parents' arsenal,

288
00:13:31,234 --> 00:13:33,914
Speaker 4: and it's in the teacher's arsenal as well. Like I'm

289
00:13:33,954 --> 00:13:36,434
Speaker 4: thinking about all of the teachers who are dealing with

290
00:13:36,874 --> 00:13:41,434
Speaker 4: social media conflicts every single day as part of their job,

291
00:13:42,114 --> 00:13:44,674
Speaker 4: who can now probably go you shouldn't even be on there.

292
00:13:44,794 --> 00:13:47,354
Speaker 4: Even that gives them something, And I think that it

293
00:13:47,514 --> 00:13:50,154
Speaker 4: chose the Australian government has a backbone I think it's brave.

294
00:13:50,234 --> 00:13:52,434
Speaker 4: I think it's bold. The rest of the world is

295
00:13:52,714 --> 00:13:57,634
Speaker 4: following suit, not identically interestingly, so even Denmark. I think

296
00:13:58,234 --> 00:14:00,794
Speaker 4: there's a lot of talk about that they're not allowed

297
00:14:00,834 --> 00:14:03,914
Speaker 4: on without parental consent. I wonder if that is a

298
00:14:03,994 --> 00:14:07,234
Speaker 4: change that will happen or curfew is the other they

299
00:14:07,634 --> 00:14:08,114
Speaker 4: talking about.

300
00:14:08,154 --> 00:14:12,314
Speaker 2: The problem with the parental consent model is in theory,

301
00:14:12,354 --> 00:14:15,354
Speaker 2: this only really works if it's everybody. So that's always

302
00:14:15,434 --> 00:14:17,634
Speaker 2: Jonathan Hight's argument that I referenced before, and if you're

303
00:14:17,634 --> 00:14:20,994
Speaker 2: not awhere, he is the guy who wrote The Anxious Generation.

304
00:14:21,514 --> 00:14:25,554
Speaker 2: He's an American, what is his psychologist? And he's very

305
00:14:25,554 --> 00:14:28,994
Speaker 2: widely credited for It was actually the South Australian premier's

306
00:14:28,994 --> 00:14:31,514
Speaker 2: wife who read that book here and started pushing her

307
00:14:31,554 --> 00:14:34,514
Speaker 2: husband to do something about this. But that's kind of

308
00:14:34,514 --> 00:14:36,874
Speaker 2: the theory that his stuff about the village, like parents

309
00:14:36,914 --> 00:14:39,194
Speaker 2: should get together in a village almost and say we're

310
00:14:39,274 --> 00:14:42,994
Speaker 2: all not going to do phones is really as I say,

311
00:14:43,034 --> 00:14:44,354
Speaker 2: I don't think that works. I think it's a bit

312
00:14:44,354 --> 00:14:46,474
Speaker 2: of a middle class fantasy that everybody's just going to

313
00:14:46,554 --> 00:14:49,194
Speaker 2: do that. But I think that the thing that's really

314
00:14:49,234 --> 00:14:51,794
Speaker 2: good about the social media benefit works is that your

315
00:14:51,914 --> 00:14:54,914
Speaker 2: kid is going to say, I'm so isolated from my

316
00:14:54,994 --> 00:14:57,114
Speaker 2: friends if you'd kick me off social media. It's like,

317
00:14:57,154 --> 00:14:58,474
Speaker 2: but none of your friends are going to be on

318
00:14:58,514 --> 00:15:00,634
Speaker 2: social media, so you're not going to be isolated from

319
00:15:00,634 --> 00:15:04,194
Speaker 2: your friends, and you'll find somewhere else together on the Internet.

320
00:15:04,274 --> 00:15:06,794
Speaker 4: And here there are some really good arguments, as there

321
00:15:06,834 --> 00:15:09,754
Speaker 4: is with any change in legislation. So there was an

322
00:15:09,834 --> 00:15:13,114
Speaker 4: article in The Guardian by Ezra Shohl, who is the

323
00:15:13,114 --> 00:15:15,074
Speaker 4: son of Natasha Shol, who has spoken about on this

324
00:15:15,114 --> 00:15:18,794
Speaker 4: podcast before. She's a brilliant writer. And he is fifteen

325
00:15:19,074 --> 00:15:23,274
Speaker 4: and is quadriplegic. He is in a wheelchair. He has

326
00:15:23,674 --> 00:15:28,954
Speaker 4: suffered the most horrific health crises over the last few years,

327
00:15:29,434 --> 00:15:33,234
Speaker 4: and the thing that has connected him to the outside

328
00:15:33,274 --> 00:15:36,954
Speaker 4: world when he has been stuck in a hospital bed

329
00:15:37,074 --> 00:15:40,634
Speaker 4: during adolescence has been social media. And I don't doubt

330
00:15:40,634 --> 00:15:42,994
Speaker 4: that that's his story. And in fact he made some

331
00:15:43,114 --> 00:15:46,034
Speaker 4: really good points. He wrote, if tech companies have the

332
00:15:46,194 --> 00:15:49,594
Speaker 4: capability to delete accounts for people under the age of sixteen,

333
00:15:49,874 --> 00:15:52,674
Speaker 4: they also have the capability to delete accounts that bully,

334
00:15:52,714 --> 00:15:56,994
Speaker 4: harass or cause harm. And he said that he's been bullied.

335
00:15:56,994 --> 00:15:59,314
Speaker 4: He gets stuff all the time, and he reports these

336
00:15:59,314 --> 00:16:03,514
Speaker 4: accounts and nothing happens. And as anyone with a profile knows,

337
00:16:03,674 --> 00:16:07,954
Speaker 4: you can get horrifically abused and nothing. So I think

338
00:16:07,994 --> 00:16:12,194
Speaker 4: this also proves the capabilities that tech companies have to

339
00:16:12,274 --> 00:16:17,034
Speaker 4: do more than their doing. But I think that ultimately

340
00:16:17,354 --> 00:16:20,914
Speaker 4: this is about utilitarianism. I think it's about the greater good.

341
00:16:21,474 --> 00:16:23,794
Speaker 4: I think it's got to look at you know, what

342
00:16:23,874 --> 00:16:25,874
Speaker 4: this has done to teen brains, and when I look

343
00:16:25,914 --> 00:16:30,194
Speaker 4: at like I saw this interview with Miranda Kerr a

344
00:16:30,234 --> 00:16:31,754
Speaker 4: few months ago. I think you talked about it on

345
00:16:31,834 --> 00:16:35,194
Speaker 4: Parenting out Loud and the Miranda Curs of the world,

346
00:16:35,194 --> 00:16:38,634
Speaker 4: who of course are married to the founder of Snapchat.

347
00:16:38,834 --> 00:16:41,354
Speaker 4: Do you think their kids have access to social media? No,

348
00:16:41,434 --> 00:16:44,994
Speaker 4: they don't because they know that screens are corrosive and

349
00:16:45,074 --> 00:16:47,394
Speaker 4: damaging and blah blah blah. So what I've always hated

350
00:16:47,554 --> 00:16:51,434
Speaker 4: is the divide between the tech billionaires who are very

351
00:16:51,474 --> 00:16:55,194
Speaker 4: strict with their screen time and just allowing everyone else

352
00:16:55,274 --> 00:16:56,954
Speaker 4: to kind of fall victim to it.

353
00:16:56,994 --> 00:16:59,754
Speaker 5: And let's be clear, those tech companies right now are

354
00:16:59,834 --> 00:17:04,154
Speaker 5: quaking in their very expensive boots and Holly, I couldn't

355
00:17:04,234 --> 00:17:07,714
Speaker 5: underscore more what you said before about be conscious of

356
00:17:07,754 --> 00:17:10,754
Speaker 5: where you're hearing criticism over the next few weeks and

357
00:17:10,834 --> 00:17:15,513
Speaker 5: who is criticizing this legislation. Because these companies they're not

358
00:17:15,634 --> 00:17:18,154
Speaker 5: worried about the fines from the Australian government. They've made

359
00:17:18,154 --> 00:17:20,594
Speaker 5: the point that look, these companies could be fined fifty

360
00:17:20,674 --> 00:17:23,513
Speaker 5: million dollars dollars if they're shown to not be making

361
00:17:23,514 --> 00:17:26,273
Speaker 5: sure that the safeguards are in place to stop children

362
00:17:26,274 --> 00:17:29,634
Speaker 5: from signing up. Yeah, fifty million dollars is nothing for Mata.

363
00:17:29,874 --> 00:17:32,033
Speaker 5: Someone pointed out who used to work at Matter in

364
00:17:32,074 --> 00:17:34,234
Speaker 5: a BBC article that that's the equivalent of a parking

365
00:17:34,234 --> 00:17:37,074
Speaker 5: ticket for Matter. They make fifty million dollars in about

366
00:17:37,074 --> 00:17:39,474
Speaker 5: two hours, so it's not really a problem for them.

367
00:17:39,954 --> 00:17:41,714
Speaker 5: That's not why they're worried. They're not worried about the

368
00:17:41,714 --> 00:17:44,954
Speaker 5: fifty million dollars. They're worried that the Australian government is

369
00:17:45,074 --> 00:17:48,834
Speaker 5: leading the charge in changing a social norm that will

370
00:17:48,834 --> 00:17:52,794
Speaker 5: make a child looking at TikTok or YouTube the same

371
00:17:52,874 --> 00:17:55,514
Speaker 5: as seeing a child smoking a cigarette. You can see

372
00:17:55,554 --> 00:17:57,954
Speaker 5: a child smoking a cigarette's pretty rare these days, but

373
00:17:58,234 --> 00:18:01,794
Speaker 5: I'm sure that there are some kids who sneak a cigarette,

374
00:18:01,954 --> 00:18:05,154
Speaker 5: but we look at it aghast because we have decided

375
00:18:05,194 --> 00:18:07,674
Speaker 5: as a society that that is not okay. And that

376
00:18:07,834 --> 00:18:09,434
Speaker 5: is what the social media said exactly.

377
00:18:09,474 --> 00:18:14,154
Speaker 4: And the tech companies aren't worried that the poor teenagers

378
00:18:14,194 --> 00:18:17,874
Speaker 4: won't be able to, you know, really galvanize and have

379
00:18:17,994 --> 00:18:20,154
Speaker 4: their online communities. They're not worried about that. They're worried

380
00:18:20,194 --> 00:18:21,234
Speaker 4: that they're not going to be able to serve them

381
00:18:21,234 --> 00:18:24,754
Speaker 4: ads anymore. And that I think is surely we can

382
00:18:24,794 --> 00:18:26,553
Speaker 4: hold hands and agree that that's a good thing.

383
00:18:26,474 --> 00:18:29,874
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I do. The only thing I want to say, though,

384
00:18:30,034 --> 00:18:31,954
Speaker 2: is that the articles that are coming out now about

385
00:18:31,954 --> 00:18:34,914
Speaker 2: parents aren't going to enforce it, and there will inevitably

386
00:18:34,994 --> 00:18:39,033
Speaker 2: be a conversation about like, oh, helicopter parents can't be

387
00:18:39,194 --> 00:18:40,234
Speaker 2: strict with their kids.

388
00:18:40,274 --> 00:18:40,914
Speaker 3: That will be.

389
00:18:41,074 --> 00:18:43,754
Speaker 4: That's what will comment. Sec Yeah, I want to.

390
00:18:43,754 --> 00:18:45,914
Speaker 2: Be really clear, because, as I say, I am in

391
00:18:45,954 --> 00:18:48,274
Speaker 2: that sort of bull's eye. If your kid is say

392
00:18:48,314 --> 00:18:50,594
Speaker 2: sixteen or out of this now, it's hard to hear

393
00:18:50,754 --> 00:18:52,594
Speaker 2: everybody around you saying.

394
00:18:52,794 --> 00:18:55,314
Speaker 3: Your kid's brain is damaged, your kid is addicted.

395
00:18:55,594 --> 00:18:57,874
Speaker 2: You've been terrible parents who've just let your kids have

396
00:18:57,954 --> 00:19:00,394
Speaker 2: unfettered access to this Our kids are all going to

397
00:19:00,434 --> 00:19:02,234
Speaker 2: be pure and great and we're never going to give

398
00:19:02,274 --> 00:19:04,834
Speaker 2: them screens, and they won't. You know, it's hard to

399
00:19:04,874 --> 00:19:08,114
Speaker 2: hear that and not get your hackles up, because this

400
00:19:08,154 --> 00:19:09,474
Speaker 2: is a truth. And I'll put my hand up and

401
00:19:09,474 --> 00:19:12,434
Speaker 2: say it's the truth for me too. Technology and phones

402
00:19:12,834 --> 00:19:15,954
Speaker 2: and all that come along with them, which we are

403
00:19:16,034 --> 00:19:18,354
Speaker 2: broadly as a culture now sort of holding hands and

404
00:19:18,394 --> 00:19:21,474
Speaker 2: going not great for kids, have kind of made parenting

405
00:19:21,514 --> 00:19:23,954
Speaker 2: a lot easier in a million ways, right Like they

406
00:19:23,994 --> 00:19:26,674
Speaker 2: really have for busy working families, for the kind of

407
00:19:26,754 --> 00:19:29,353
Speaker 2: parents who which most parents are, who don't have all

408
00:19:29,394 --> 00:19:30,954
Speaker 2: the time in the world to be policing what their

409
00:19:30,994 --> 00:19:33,194
Speaker 2: kids are doing every minute, you know, who don't have

410
00:19:33,234 --> 00:19:35,914
Speaker 2: the time to be ferrying them around to improving activities

411
00:19:35,914 --> 00:19:36,754
Speaker 2: and all that stuff.

412
00:19:37,274 --> 00:19:38,674
Speaker 3: There does feel to me to be.

413
00:19:38,674 --> 00:19:42,354
Speaker 2: A little bit of a snobby divide opening about whether

414
00:19:42,474 --> 00:19:45,154
Speaker 2: or not, you know, the kids who aren't addicted to

415
00:19:45,234 --> 00:19:48,434
Speaker 2: social media are in one class and one who are aren't.

416
00:19:48,514 --> 00:19:51,434
Speaker 2: And I think that that's part of all the arguments

417
00:19:51,434 --> 00:19:53,513
Speaker 2: we're going to see opening up over the next few weeks.

418
00:19:54,194 --> 00:19:56,634
Speaker 2: I think we need to be careful not to demonize

419
00:19:57,074 --> 00:20:01,194
Speaker 2: this generation that have grown up with their phones. If

420
00:20:01,194 --> 00:20:03,553
Speaker 2: this van is successful and followed around the world, and

421
00:20:03,594 --> 00:20:06,553
Speaker 2: you know, as you say, Amelia, the social norm is

422
00:20:06,594 --> 00:20:08,594
Speaker 2: successful shifted, and let's all hope it is.

423
00:20:08,634 --> 00:20:12,034
Speaker 3: I genuinely hope that it is. That's great, But.

424
00:20:12,034 --> 00:20:14,594
Speaker 2: We are going to then have in this generational line

425
00:20:14,594 --> 00:20:16,954
Speaker 2: of like kind of like in the old days we

426
00:20:17,034 --> 00:20:19,114
Speaker 2: grew up before they knew that it was bad for

427
00:20:19,154 --> 00:20:22,234
Speaker 2: you to drink when you were pregnant, or not clip

428
00:20:22,234 --> 00:20:24,154
Speaker 2: your kids in in the car. I heard you talking

429
00:20:24,154 --> 00:20:26,874
Speaker 2: on parenting out loud about seat belts and drawing that comparison,

430
00:20:27,794 --> 00:20:30,313
Speaker 2: like we shouldn't demonize that, just like I think we

431
00:20:30,314 --> 00:20:32,754
Speaker 2: shouldn't demonize the parents who've got a fifteen year old

432
00:20:32,834 --> 00:20:34,954
Speaker 2: right now and they're going if they're on Snapchat for

433
00:20:34,954 --> 00:20:36,914
Speaker 2: another month, is that going to be the end.

434
00:20:36,874 --> 00:20:37,274
Speaker 1: Of the world.

435
00:20:37,314 --> 00:20:37,394
Speaker 4: No.

436
00:20:37,514 --> 00:20:40,154
Speaker 5: And part of that is recognizing that the most powerful

437
00:20:40,194 --> 00:20:42,954
Speaker 5: people and the richest people the world has ever seen

438
00:20:43,354 --> 00:20:47,394
Speaker 5: have thrown everything at the wall to make children dependent

439
00:20:47,514 --> 00:20:50,114
Speaker 5: on what their offerings are. And the more that we

440
00:20:50,154 --> 00:20:53,754
Speaker 5: can shift that understanding from it's not about what parents

441
00:20:53,794 --> 00:20:56,794
Speaker 5: have decided or not decided. It was the most sophisticated

442
00:20:56,834 --> 00:21:00,634
Speaker 5: propaganda machine that had ever been thrown at anyone, and

443
00:21:00,674 --> 00:21:03,154
Speaker 5: it was thrown at kids. And now the Albanzi government

444
00:21:03,274 --> 00:21:04,514
Speaker 5: is trying to stop that tide.

445
00:21:04,634 --> 00:21:07,313
Speaker 4: And Wednesday I think is the first day in what

446
00:21:07,714 --> 00:21:13,674
Speaker 4: I think they want to be a cultural, social, worldwide shift.

447
00:21:13,874 --> 00:21:15,994
Speaker 4: And I don't think if on Friday all of the

448
00:21:16,074 --> 00:21:18,074
Speaker 4: kids aren't off social media, it's a failure.

449
00:21:18,354 --> 00:21:20,954
Speaker 2: Agreed, But thoughts and prayers if you're arguing with your

450
00:21:20,994 --> 00:21:27,353
Speaker 2: fourteen right now after the break, why Oprah Wisdom is

451
00:21:27,434 --> 00:21:39,354
Speaker 2: still all over your feed in twenty twenty five. My

452
00:21:39,674 --> 00:21:42,154
Speaker 2: social media feed, because I'm an adult and I'm allowed

453
00:21:42,154 --> 00:21:42,674
Speaker 2: to have one.

454
00:21:43,754 --> 00:21:47,154
Speaker 3: This weekend has been swamped by a.

455
00:21:47,074 --> 00:21:49,874
Speaker 2: Lot of women who've been to see Oprah Winfrey on

456
00:21:49,914 --> 00:21:52,513
Speaker 2: her tour around Australia. So if you're not on the

457
00:21:52,554 --> 00:21:54,793
Speaker 2: same kind of algorithmic or bent as I am, the

458
00:21:54,914 --> 00:21:58,274
Speaker 2: seventy one year old is in Australia right now. She's

459
00:21:58,274 --> 00:22:01,553
Speaker 2: doing these big speaking events. She's also doing lots of

460
00:22:01,554 --> 00:22:04,234
Speaker 2: social media. So every city she goes to, she's doing

461
00:22:04,234 --> 00:22:06,314
Speaker 2: a hike there because she says she hikes every day

462
00:22:06,354 --> 00:22:09,754
Speaker 2: now and she is eating local delicacies. And then she's

463
00:22:09,794 --> 00:22:13,434
Speaker 2: having these huge, sort of arena sized shows women are going.

464
00:22:13,794 --> 00:22:16,234
Speaker 2: The vibe seems to be very much with their mates,

465
00:22:16,514 --> 00:22:18,994
Speaker 2: you know, getting dressed up, put your other Camilla or

466
00:22:19,034 --> 00:22:21,714
Speaker 2: your imitation Camilla, caf done on. Go and see Oprah

467
00:22:21,714 --> 00:22:24,154
Speaker 2: talk and then post her wisdom. The kind of things

468
00:22:24,194 --> 00:22:26,674
Speaker 2: I'm seeing being posted are five things I learned at

469
00:22:26,714 --> 00:22:27,314
Speaker 2: Oprah last.

470
00:22:27,354 --> 00:22:29,033
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm seeing all of them, and I'm reading all

471
00:22:29,074 --> 00:22:30,194
Speaker 4: of them because I would.

472
00:22:30,034 --> 00:22:30,474
Speaker 3: Have loved to go.

473
00:22:30,554 --> 00:22:31,394
Speaker 1: Are people loving it?

474
00:22:31,554 --> 00:22:33,794
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm seeing this kind of thing. This is interesting.

475
00:22:34,194 --> 00:22:36,793
Speaker 2: You cannot be friends with anyone who is even a

476
00:22:36,834 --> 00:22:38,793
Speaker 2: little bit jealous of you. This is one of the

477
00:22:38,834 --> 00:22:42,114
Speaker 2: things I saw. This is unfortunate. I've declared in the past, Jesse,

478
00:22:42,594 --> 00:22:47,034
Speaker 2: I have had times when I've been jealous of you, exactly.

479
00:22:47,594 --> 00:22:49,874
Speaker 2: Jealousy is a crack in the foundation, says Oprah. The

480
00:22:49,914 --> 00:22:50,794
Speaker 2: whole house will fall.

481
00:22:50,794 --> 00:22:53,394
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I'm prone to jealousy.

482
00:22:53,554 --> 00:22:54,154
Speaker 3: You're in trouble.

483
00:22:54,714 --> 00:22:57,234
Speaker 2: Life is whispering to you all of the time. You

484
00:22:57,354 --> 00:22:59,434
Speaker 2: only go off track when you're not listening.

485
00:22:59,794 --> 00:23:00,954
Speaker 1: This is interesting.

486
00:23:01,754 --> 00:23:02,273
Speaker 3: I like that.

487
00:23:02,354 --> 00:23:04,394
Speaker 4: I don't fully understand it, but I like the vibe.

488
00:23:04,474 --> 00:23:06,994
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the kind of stuff that I'm seeing post.

489
00:23:07,114 --> 00:23:09,034
Speaker 2: Everyone's saying this is what Oprah taught me last night.

490
00:23:09,514 --> 00:23:11,594
Speaker 2: The stereotype of the women who are going but I'm

491
00:23:11,594 --> 00:23:13,954
Speaker 2: sure this isn't entirely true, of course, is that there

492
00:23:13,954 --> 00:23:16,034
Speaker 2: are a certain age that they're white, that they're into

493
00:23:16,074 --> 00:23:20,034
Speaker 2: self optimization. But this is largely an audience that's come

494
00:23:20,034 --> 00:23:23,234
Speaker 2: of age with her, right, So Oprah is a guru

495
00:23:23,474 --> 00:23:24,314
Speaker 2: to this generation.

496
00:23:24,434 --> 00:23:26,034
Speaker 4: Say I will fight you on that.

497
00:23:26,194 --> 00:23:26,754
Speaker 3: Good I don't.

498
00:23:26,954 --> 00:23:29,674
Speaker 4: I don't think that it is a certain generation. The

499
00:23:29,674 --> 00:23:34,434
Speaker 4: people I'm seeing are in their twenties. They are diverse,

500
00:23:34,634 --> 00:23:38,154
Speaker 4: and when I looked into it, one of the hallmarks

501
00:23:38,154 --> 00:23:40,634
Speaker 4: of her longevity has been the diversity of her audience.

502
00:23:40,754 --> 00:23:43,594
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, I think that's certainly true, because she's

503
00:23:43,914 --> 00:23:46,394
Speaker 2: you know, she has so many stories to tell. But

504
00:23:46,554 --> 00:23:49,514
Speaker 2: I think she is seen by her critics as being

505
00:23:50,354 --> 00:23:52,714
Speaker 2: like a sort of Tamu guru in a way, when

506
00:23:52,714 --> 00:23:54,114
Speaker 2: really I would argue she's the og.

507
00:23:54,554 --> 00:23:55,194
Speaker 4: Yeah, me too.

508
00:23:55,234 --> 00:23:58,914
Speaker 2: Anyway, Amelia always says that you're a bit baffled by

509
00:23:58,914 --> 00:23:59,754
Speaker 2: the Oprah phenomena.

510
00:23:59,914 --> 00:24:01,194
Speaker 1: Yeah, like full disclosure.

511
00:24:01,274 --> 00:24:03,314
Speaker 5: I wanted to do this today because I did say

512
00:24:03,394 --> 00:24:06,154
Speaker 5: she was in Australia, and I have to admit that

513
00:24:06,154 --> 00:24:09,033
Speaker 5: that phenomenon past nearby, and I want to learn. I

514
00:24:09,074 --> 00:24:13,474
Speaker 5: want to learn why Australian women in particular evidently still

515
00:24:13,514 --> 00:24:16,434
Speaker 5: love Oprah After decades in the public eye, she is

516
00:24:16,514 --> 00:24:19,914
Speaker 5: still attracting thousands of people to these shows. They're gathering

517
00:24:19,954 --> 00:24:21,994
Speaker 5: a lot from it. I want you to explain her

518
00:24:22,034 --> 00:24:22,674
Speaker 5: appeal to me.

519
00:24:22,794 --> 00:24:24,594
Speaker 3: Do you want a little cheat sheet I do on

520
00:24:24,754 --> 00:24:25,554
Speaker 3: Oprah Winfrey.

521
00:24:25,994 --> 00:24:28,314
Speaker 2: Now, this could be the longest cheat sheet of all time,

522
00:24:28,514 --> 00:24:29,794
Speaker 2: but it's not going to be.

523
00:24:29,554 --> 00:24:31,154
Speaker 3: Because we will be here all day.

524
00:24:31,754 --> 00:24:34,354
Speaker 2: Did you know the place that Oprah was born, which

525
00:24:34,394 --> 00:24:37,394
Speaker 2: is in Mississippi in the States, is called Kosiosco.

526
00:24:37,434 --> 00:24:40,314
Speaker 5: Nolasco Bridge in New York City.

527
00:24:40,474 --> 00:24:43,474
Speaker 3: Yes, so famously.

528
00:24:43,554 --> 00:24:45,794
Speaker 2: I guess the Oprah myth and it isn't a myth,

529
00:24:45,834 --> 00:24:48,114
Speaker 2: it is her origin story is a large part of

530
00:24:48,114 --> 00:24:51,394
Speaker 2: her appeal right very top line. She was born to

531
00:24:51,434 --> 00:24:56,554
Speaker 2: teenage parents in Kosiosco, Mississippi, and she had a very

532
00:24:56,554 --> 00:25:00,194
Speaker 2: tough upbringing. She was sexually abused as a teenager. She

533
00:25:00,234 --> 00:25:01,834
Speaker 2: gave birth to a little boy at fourteen.

534
00:25:01,954 --> 00:25:02,513
Speaker 3: He died.

535
00:25:03,314 --> 00:25:08,954
Speaker 2: Despite this absolutely traumatic upbringing, I guess you'd say she

536
00:25:08,994 --> 00:25:11,554
Speaker 2: started working in media when she was seventeen.

537
00:25:11,714 --> 00:25:12,154
Speaker 1: Wow.

538
00:25:12,274 --> 00:25:16,834
Speaker 2: And then she started working for a TV station locally

539
00:25:16,914 --> 00:25:19,954
Speaker 2: to her, and then she was working in Baltimore, and

540
00:25:19,994 --> 00:25:22,554
Speaker 2: then she most notably made a move to Chicago, which

541
00:25:22,554 --> 00:25:25,594
Speaker 2: is where she built her empire. Right, So, from a

542
00:25:25,674 --> 00:25:28,313
Speaker 2: very young age, she was incredibly driven. There are so

543
00:25:28,474 --> 00:25:31,114
Speaker 2: many firsts when it comes to Oprah Winfrey.

544
00:25:31,194 --> 00:25:31,354
Speaker 4: Right.

545
00:25:31,794 --> 00:25:33,234
Speaker 3: She was the first.

546
00:25:33,034 --> 00:25:36,554
Speaker 2: Woman in history to own and produce her own talk show.

547
00:25:36,994 --> 00:25:40,954
Speaker 2: She's the first Black American woman to be syndicated, the

548
00:25:40,994 --> 00:25:44,513
Speaker 2: first Black American woman to be a billionaire, the first

549
00:25:44,714 --> 00:25:48,834
Speaker 2: Black American woman to own a TV network. She decided

550
00:25:48,834 --> 00:25:52,154
Speaker 2: that news reporting wasn't really her thing because.

551
00:25:51,794 --> 00:25:55,354
Speaker 3: She struggled with the objectivity of it, which is a very.

552
00:25:55,714 --> 00:25:56,954
Speaker 4: Self aware thing to say.

553
00:25:57,034 --> 00:25:59,154
Speaker 2: I love her, Yeah, it's very self aware, but it

554
00:25:59,234 --> 00:26:01,434
Speaker 2: also is like one of the foundations for what she

555
00:26:01,554 --> 00:26:04,594
Speaker 2: then almost invented in a way, which was this like

556
00:26:04,834 --> 00:26:07,674
Speaker 2: own your truth, Yes, own your truth. So rather than

557
00:26:07,754 --> 00:26:10,874
Speaker 2: just reporting the news, she wanted to create the culture.

558
00:26:10,954 --> 00:26:13,354
Speaker 2: I guess, right, So she wanted to be a journal

559
00:26:13,434 --> 00:26:17,273
Speaker 2: and in nineteen eighty four, she relocated to Chicago to

560
00:26:17,434 --> 00:26:20,874
Speaker 2: host a low rated morning talk show called Am Chicago.

561
00:26:21,314 --> 00:26:23,313
Speaker 2: It was immediately a hit with her hosting it.

562
00:26:23,394 --> 00:26:23,594
Speaker 5: Right.

563
00:26:24,074 --> 00:26:26,874
Speaker 2: They say that because she was authentic and empathetic and engaging.

564
00:26:27,434 --> 00:26:29,513
Speaker 2: She quickly took the show from last place to the

565
00:26:29,514 --> 00:26:31,954
Speaker 2: top of the ratings within a year, and they soon

566
00:26:32,114 --> 00:26:34,394
Speaker 2: renamed the show after her within a year of her

567
00:26:34,434 --> 00:26:37,954
Speaker 2: doing it by nineteen eighty eight, so only four years.

568
00:26:38,514 --> 00:26:41,033
Speaker 2: That show was such a hit, and she acquired ownership

569
00:26:41,074 --> 00:26:44,194
Speaker 2: and production responsibilities for it, making her the first woman

570
00:26:44,234 --> 00:26:46,874
Speaker 2: in history to own and produce her own talk show.

571
00:26:47,034 --> 00:26:48,634
Speaker 4: Wo wow, I invented it.

572
00:26:48,794 --> 00:26:49,834
Speaker 3: She invented that shit.

573
00:26:50,314 --> 00:26:53,994
Speaker 2: She founded Hyper Productions, groundbreaking move that secured her creative

574
00:26:54,034 --> 00:26:56,194
Speaker 2: control and made her loads of money. It's another big

575
00:26:56,234 --> 00:26:58,594
Speaker 2: thing about Oprah. She is very, very rich, as we know.

576
00:26:59,034 --> 00:27:01,314
Speaker 2: And then as we know, right, the Oprah Winfrey Show

577
00:27:01,314 --> 00:27:03,513
Speaker 2: started off in a kind of it was like, I

578
00:27:03,554 --> 00:27:05,474
Speaker 2: don't know what we call it, like shock TV in

579
00:27:05,514 --> 00:27:08,714
Speaker 2: those days, Like she'd have oring family members. I remember

580
00:27:08,834 --> 00:27:11,034
Speaker 2: very clearly an episode she had the Clueklux Klan.

581
00:27:10,914 --> 00:27:13,354
Speaker 5: On god Is how as a child of the nineties,

582
00:27:13,594 --> 00:27:16,674
Speaker 5: I knew Oprah. She had this talk show that had

583
00:27:16,714 --> 00:27:19,954
Speaker 5: the scandalous sort of soap operaary elements to it.

584
00:27:20,274 --> 00:27:20,554
Speaker 3: See.

585
00:27:20,634 --> 00:27:24,594
Speaker 4: I think that you can only understand Oprah in relationship

586
00:27:24,634 --> 00:27:33,114
Speaker 4: to Jerry Springer like Jerry Springer was the scandalous, ethically dubious,

587
00:27:33,394 --> 00:27:36,994
Speaker 4: there was no soul to it. It was maybe the

588
00:27:37,034 --> 00:27:42,234
Speaker 4: original rage bait that was happening, and Oprah was almost

589
00:27:42,474 --> 00:27:46,114
Speaker 4: the more like morally upright version of that.

590
00:27:46,354 --> 00:27:50,073
Speaker 2: But it's the order of things, So Oprah was first,

591
00:27:50,234 --> 00:27:52,754
Speaker 2: uh huh, And Oprah's TV show did have a fair

592
00:27:52,794 --> 00:27:54,793
Speaker 2: bit of that, but she didn't like it. By the

593
00:27:54,914 --> 00:27:57,273
Speaker 2: end of the eighties, she was over that kind of

594
00:27:57,274 --> 00:28:00,274
Speaker 2: stuff and she wanted to move in the nineties, which

595
00:28:00,314 --> 00:28:03,394
Speaker 2: she did into more like it's amazing to think that

596
00:28:03,434 --> 00:28:05,994
Speaker 2: the infamous Wagon of Fat episode, which is one of

597
00:28:05,994 --> 00:28:09,754
Speaker 2: the things that is most often used to criticize her for,

598
00:28:09,834 --> 00:28:12,514
Speaker 2: which is the episode where very famously she lost lots

599
00:28:12,514 --> 00:28:14,674
Speaker 2: of weight on a diet that she later admitted was

600
00:28:14,954 --> 00:28:18,394
Speaker 2: incredibly dangerous and basically starvation, and then she walked onto

601
00:28:18,394 --> 00:28:19,793
Speaker 2: her set with her Wagon and Fat.

602
00:28:20,754 --> 00:28:23,634
Speaker 3: Was in nineteen eighty eight, and like, that is a

603
00:28:23,714 --> 00:28:24,314
Speaker 3: very long time ago.

604
00:28:24,394 --> 00:28:26,234
Speaker 2: So she was doing that kind of stuff and then

605
00:28:26,314 --> 00:28:29,234
Speaker 2: Jerry Springer started doing it, Doctor Phil started doing it,

606
00:28:29,394 --> 00:28:31,714
Speaker 2: these other people started doing it, and she was like, oh,

607
00:28:31,794 --> 00:28:34,154
Speaker 2: I think I've given birth to a monster. And she

608
00:28:34,514 --> 00:28:37,033
Speaker 2: shifted into self help stuff.

609
00:28:37,154 --> 00:28:37,474
Speaker 4: Yeah.

610
00:28:37,634 --> 00:28:39,434
Speaker 5: Do you think that part of the reason why that

611
00:28:39,514 --> 00:28:42,834
Speaker 5: wagon of felt was such a milestone in TV history

612
00:28:42,954 --> 00:28:46,194
Speaker 5: and for Oprah was because she basically kind of invented

613
00:28:46,274 --> 00:28:49,914
Speaker 5: vulnerability on TV because before that, is it true that

614
00:28:50,034 --> 00:28:52,434
Speaker 5: it was much more polished and people didn't sort of

615
00:28:52,474 --> 00:28:54,594
Speaker 5: open up in that way about their struggles?

616
00:28:54,834 --> 00:28:57,834
Speaker 4: Yeah? I think so. They weren't as candid about it.

617
00:28:57,874 --> 00:28:59,314
Speaker 4: And when you go back and you look at all

618
00:28:59,354 --> 00:29:04,274
Speaker 4: the times Oprah was asked or mocked or criticized openly

619
00:29:04,354 --> 00:29:06,554
Speaker 4: to her face on other talk shows about her weight,

620
00:29:06,634 --> 00:29:09,474
Speaker 4: you can complete understand how she got to that point.

621
00:29:09,554 --> 00:29:11,474
Speaker 4: And I think that she was trying to use it

622
00:29:12,034 --> 00:29:17,674
Speaker 4: as a way to help inspire other women, which ironically

623
00:29:18,394 --> 00:29:21,034
Speaker 4: now her being in Australia. If you have a really

624
00:29:21,034 --> 00:29:23,754
Speaker 4: good look at that poster of Oprah's touring poster, it's

625
00:29:23,794 --> 00:29:25,354
Speaker 4: got a big face of her, and it's got all the

626
00:29:25,434 --> 00:29:28,754
Speaker 4: dates you can see presented by and it has a

627
00:29:28,754 --> 00:29:31,194
Speaker 4: brand name that I actually didn't recognize, and that brand

628
00:29:31,234 --> 00:29:35,394
Speaker 4: is a pharmaceutical company that makes weight loss products, which

629
00:29:35,434 --> 00:29:38,194
Speaker 4: is why she's here. They've paid for her to come

630
00:29:38,234 --> 00:29:40,914
Speaker 4: out here, which is sort of a lens by which

631
00:29:40,954 --> 00:29:43,354
Speaker 4: a lot of Maybe her social media content makes more

632
00:29:43,394 --> 00:29:47,514
Speaker 4: sense that she's doing these hikes and that, you know,

633
00:29:47,634 --> 00:29:50,754
Speaker 4: lots of commentary as they always has been about her body.

634
00:29:50,954 --> 00:29:53,554
Speaker 5: The one I saw of her in Sydney after she'd

635
00:29:53,594 --> 00:29:55,594
Speaker 5: been on a hike and then she went to eat

636
00:29:55,634 --> 00:29:59,794
Speaker 5: hotcakes said something to the effect of, I've now earned

637
00:29:59,914 --> 00:30:03,474
Speaker 5: myself the ability to have an indulgent meal. Yeah, it

638
00:30:03,594 --> 00:30:06,594
Speaker 5: is diet adjacent culture that she is still pushing.

639
00:30:07,234 --> 00:30:12,914
Speaker 4: No one has marinated in diet culture more than Oprah

640
00:30:12,954 --> 00:30:17,314
Speaker 4: Whgfrey like she has been the subject of it. She

641
00:30:17,554 --> 00:30:19,914
Speaker 4: has been in many ways victim of it. But then

642
00:30:19,954 --> 00:30:22,554
Speaker 4: I suppose at the same time she's espoused it because

643
00:30:22,594 --> 00:30:24,394
Speaker 4: that's the world in which she grew up.

644
00:30:24,474 --> 00:30:27,474
Speaker 2: I think you've got to remember that, like her peak.

645
00:30:27,554 --> 00:30:30,514
Speaker 2: So the peak of Oprah's powers in terms of influence

646
00:30:31,114 --> 00:30:34,594
Speaker 2: were the eighties and nineties, right, and diet culture in

647
00:30:34,594 --> 00:30:37,674
Speaker 2: inverted commas didn't exist, as in it did absolutely exist,

648
00:30:37,794 --> 00:30:39,074
Speaker 2: but we didn't have a name for it.

649
00:30:39,154 --> 00:30:40,274
Speaker 3: We couldn't point at it.

650
00:30:40,714 --> 00:30:41,394
Speaker 1: Air that you breathe.

651
00:30:41,474 --> 00:30:44,154
Speaker 4: Yes, it's just every single woman wanted to lose. Yeah.

652
00:30:44,634 --> 00:30:47,234
Speaker 2: And so if you think that the power that Oprah

653
00:30:47,314 --> 00:30:49,874
Speaker 2: harnessed and then, as you say, Jesse, that power kind

654
00:30:49,874 --> 00:30:52,074
Speaker 2: of got hijacked by lots of other sort of other

655
00:30:52,154 --> 00:30:57,754
Speaker 2: shows and things. Was Middle America ordinary in inverted commas,

656
00:30:57,794 --> 00:31:02,274
Speaker 2: people watching television during the day, wrestling with the kind

657
00:31:02,314 --> 00:31:05,234
Speaker 2: of things that ordinary people wrestle with, which is family

658
00:31:05,314 --> 00:31:10,514
Speaker 2: dynamics and problems, money, weight relationships. She spoke to people

659
00:31:10,554 --> 00:31:12,994
Speaker 2: about the shit they really cared about, rather than what

660
00:31:13,114 --> 00:31:16,394
Speaker 2: she thought they should care about. That's the secret of

661
00:31:16,434 --> 00:31:19,514
Speaker 2: her success in those days. And we can pretend, as

662
00:31:19,594 --> 00:31:23,114
Speaker 2: much as we want, retrospectively or otherwise that women didn't

663
00:31:23,154 --> 00:31:26,394
Speaker 2: care about losing weight. But women cared, and you could

664
00:31:26,594 --> 00:31:28,914
Speaker 2: still argue now care enormously about weight.

665
00:31:28,994 --> 00:31:29,474
Speaker 1: They just do.

666
00:31:30,234 --> 00:31:32,394
Speaker 2: And I think that Oprah, if we think about the

667
00:31:32,434 --> 00:31:34,794
Speaker 2: Wagon of Fat being nineteen eighty eight, which is a

668
00:31:34,874 --> 00:31:37,954
Speaker 2: very long time ago, over that time, I think that

669
00:31:38,074 --> 00:31:41,194
Speaker 2: Oprah's lens on it has shifted as well. She during

670
00:31:41,194 --> 00:31:44,274
Speaker 2: that time has lost weight, put on weight, written a

671
00:31:44,314 --> 00:31:46,914
Speaker 2: million different words about it, spoken words about it, decided

672
00:31:46,994 --> 00:31:49,194
Speaker 2: not to speak about it at all, make a deal

673
00:31:49,234 --> 00:31:51,714
Speaker 2: with weight watches, make a deal with medical weight loss company,

674
00:31:51,754 --> 00:31:55,114
Speaker 2: don't do that. Over that time, she has ridden all

675
00:31:55,194 --> 00:31:58,234
Speaker 2: kinds of waves with that and she's been blamed in

676
00:31:58,274 --> 00:32:02,114
Speaker 2: a way for being a paragon of diet culture, when

677
00:32:02,114 --> 00:32:04,674
Speaker 2: I think that actually she just kind of reflected.

678
00:32:04,274 --> 00:32:07,074
Speaker 3: She gave to us shar and she reflects it to us.

679
00:32:07,154 --> 00:32:10,634
Speaker 2: And so where she is now here having been brought

680
00:32:10,674 --> 00:32:14,594
Speaker 2: here by a medical weight loss company, which whatever feelings

681
00:32:14,634 --> 00:32:16,154
Speaker 2: you have about that, and there are many to have,

682
00:32:16,234 --> 00:32:19,034
Speaker 2: I think she reflects where weight loss culture is in

683
00:32:19,074 --> 00:32:23,034
Speaker 2: this moment, which is the GLP one revolution. You can

684
00:32:23,074 --> 00:32:26,314
Speaker 2: go hiking and eat hotcakes and take like obesity is

685
00:32:26,354 --> 00:32:28,074
Speaker 2: a disease. That's what she's talking about a lot. So

686
00:32:28,114 --> 00:32:31,914
Speaker 2: I think it's hard to uncouple Oprah from that, But

687
00:32:32,034 --> 00:32:33,554
Speaker 2: she's actually a lot more than.

688
00:32:33,514 --> 00:32:36,194
Speaker 5: That, right, And what I'm hearing from the way that

689
00:32:36,234 --> 00:32:41,754
Speaker 5: you describe her extraordinary rise is that she made people

690
00:32:41,794 --> 00:32:46,034
Speaker 5: who didn't feel very seen feel seen and understood as well,

691
00:32:46,194 --> 00:32:48,914
Speaker 5: not just seen, but understood at a time when their

692
00:32:48,954 --> 00:32:52,634
Speaker 5: concerns were seen as quotidian or not important, or superficial

693
00:32:52,714 --> 00:32:55,834
Speaker 5: or silly. And so, what do you think accounts for

694
00:32:55,914 --> 00:33:00,634
Speaker 5: both the longevity of that career, because now everyone discloses everything.

695
00:33:00,834 --> 00:33:02,794
Speaker 5: So back in the eighties and the early nineties, when

696
00:33:02,834 --> 00:33:05,914
Speaker 5: she's doing the wagon of fat that's unusual and revolutionary.

697
00:33:06,194 --> 00:33:08,434
Speaker 5: Now we all know much about each other, as the

698
00:33:08,554 --> 00:33:11,194
Speaker 5: internet meme goes, So what do you think it counts

699
00:33:11,194 --> 00:33:15,634
Speaker 5: for that continued fascination with Oprah when everyone's disclosing everything.

700
00:33:15,674 --> 00:33:19,474
Speaker 5: And also for Australian women, she strikes me so quintessentially

701
00:33:19,514 --> 00:33:22,714
Speaker 5: American in her rise and in the adversity that she's

702
00:33:22,714 --> 00:33:25,354
Speaker 5: had to overcome. What is it about Oprah these days

703
00:33:25,354 --> 00:33:27,474
Speaker 5: for Australian women that still clearly resonates.

704
00:33:28,034 --> 00:33:34,474
Speaker 4: I think she doesn't talk about structural inequality. She doesn't

705
00:33:34,474 --> 00:33:37,394
Speaker 4: talk about the structures. She doesn't talk about things like

706
00:33:37,514 --> 00:33:43,074
Speaker 4: corporate power, or the gender divide, or environmental degradation or

707
00:33:43,114 --> 00:33:46,434
Speaker 4: all the scary big things. She talks about you and

708
00:33:46,474 --> 00:33:47,034
Speaker 4: your purpose, the.

709
00:33:47,034 --> 00:33:47,994
Speaker 1: Scary small things.

710
00:33:48,154 --> 00:33:53,234
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly right. That actually she talks so eloquently

711
00:33:53,474 --> 00:33:58,394
Speaker 4: about grief and about friendship and about your goals and

712
00:33:58,434 --> 00:34:02,394
Speaker 4: your purpose. Which does it applies to the poor person

713
00:34:02,434 --> 00:34:05,914
Speaker 4: in Middle America? It applies to the rich celebrity in

714
00:34:05,954 --> 00:34:09,673
Speaker 4: Hollywood equally, And so I think whether or not that's

715
00:34:09,714 --> 00:34:11,873
Speaker 4: a good thing, and whether or not it's at all

716
00:34:12,034 --> 00:34:16,074
Speaker 4: true or you can uncouple capitalist structures from how people's

717
00:34:16,154 --> 00:34:18,554
Speaker 4: lives turn out whatever. But the reason that she can

718
00:34:18,634 --> 00:34:24,394
Speaker 4: fill a room is because there's something like fundamentally empowering

719
00:34:24,634 --> 00:34:27,034
Speaker 4: about that. And I've always had a relationship to Oprah.

720
00:34:27,114 --> 00:34:30,834
Speaker 4: That's like your great auntie who always buys you a

721
00:34:30,874 --> 00:34:34,074
Speaker 4: really good present and has great advice and gives you

722
00:34:34,114 --> 00:34:36,434
Speaker 4: the right book at the right moment. Like that's as simple,

723
00:34:36,634 --> 00:34:38,873
Speaker 4: and who doesn't want that? And everyone wants that. And

724
00:34:38,914 --> 00:34:43,634
Speaker 4: she's even seen as having been responsible for the reinvigoration

725
00:34:43,674 --> 00:34:46,114
Speaker 4: of reading in the US, like what she did with

726
00:34:46,714 --> 00:34:48,274
Speaker 4: her book club and her magazine.

727
00:34:48,554 --> 00:34:51,394
Speaker 5: Now is she now? Reese and all these other people

728
00:34:51,594 --> 00:34:54,354
Speaker 5: have come in her footsteps, Quen, all these people wouldn't

729
00:34:54,394 --> 00:34:54,913
Speaker 5: exist with.

730
00:34:54,874 --> 00:34:56,994
Speaker 1: The business empires they do were it not for Oprah.

731
00:34:57,154 --> 00:34:59,393
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's so true, Jesse.

732
00:34:59,554 --> 00:35:02,953
Speaker 2: I think that her appeal is because her story, her

733
00:35:02,954 --> 00:35:05,194
Speaker 2: origin story, and then all the things she's been through

734
00:35:05,234 --> 00:35:08,594
Speaker 2: in the past four decades. People are very seduced by

735
00:35:08,754 --> 00:35:13,234
Speaker 2: stories of transformation. That's true, whether they are, you know,

736
00:35:13,394 --> 00:35:16,913
Speaker 2: privileged and wealthy but always wanting to be better, you know,

737
00:35:17,034 --> 00:35:19,634
Speaker 2: like this self optimization culture which you could are You

738
00:35:19,634 --> 00:35:22,314
Speaker 2: could string together quite a goog argument that Oprah has

739
00:35:22,354 --> 00:35:26,834
Speaker 2: mainstreamed because therapy speaks self optimization, a certain amount of

740
00:35:26,834 --> 00:35:29,114
Speaker 2: wu woo. She's the points of criticism that you can

741
00:35:29,234 --> 00:35:29,714
Speaker 2: put on her.

742
00:35:29,754 --> 00:35:29,913
Speaker 5: Now.

743
00:35:29,914 --> 00:35:32,074
Speaker 2: For example, she was a massive support of The Secret.

744
00:35:32,674 --> 00:35:34,913
Speaker 2: The first time I ever saw The Secret, it was

745
00:35:34,994 --> 00:35:38,114
Speaker 2: on Oprah. You know, those kind of things. But she

746
00:35:38,394 --> 00:35:41,954
Speaker 2: mainstreamed all that stuff, and she is in herself. She

747
00:35:42,034 --> 00:35:45,274
Speaker 2: embodies a story of transformation and she continues to and

748
00:35:45,314 --> 00:35:48,514
Speaker 2: I think that's really seductive to everybody. The big points

749
00:35:48,514 --> 00:35:51,074
Speaker 2: of criticism for Oprah are the weight stuff which we

750
00:35:51,154 --> 00:35:54,274
Speaker 2: just talked about, toxic diet culture, the fact that she

751
00:35:54,514 --> 00:35:58,834
Speaker 2: is a multi billionaire who apparently her property portfolio is

752
00:35:58,874 --> 00:36:00,194
Speaker 2: worth like five billion dollars.

753
00:36:00,194 --> 00:36:00,354
Speaker 3: Now.

754
00:36:00,394 --> 00:36:03,274
Speaker 2: She is also a massive flat flut. I always fail

755
00:36:03,354 --> 00:36:04,674
Speaker 2: with this wordlaist.

756
00:36:05,034 --> 00:36:07,554
Speaker 4: She did land in Australia on her private jet, she did.

757
00:36:07,874 --> 00:36:09,834
Speaker 3: I mean she goes too.

758
00:36:09,874 --> 00:36:10,634
Speaker 1: That's a long fly.

759
00:36:10,874 --> 00:36:11,034
Speaker 5: Yeah.

760
00:36:11,594 --> 00:36:13,994
Speaker 2: She gives hundreds of millions to charities that she supports,

761
00:36:14,034 --> 00:36:15,634
Speaker 2: and she has an academy in South Africa and all

762
00:36:15,674 --> 00:36:18,354
Speaker 2: those things. But still you cannot be beyond approach when

763
00:36:18,394 --> 00:36:20,274
Speaker 2: you've got that level of personal wealth.

764
00:36:20,314 --> 00:36:22,073
Speaker 3: She owns large swedes.

765
00:36:22,674 --> 00:36:26,154
Speaker 5: That it's the women billionaires who often get this criticism

766
00:36:26,194 --> 00:36:28,234
Speaker 5: that in itself being a billionaire is not okay.

767
00:36:28,274 --> 00:36:30,274
Speaker 2: Well, that's true, although I do have a few problems

768
00:36:30,274 --> 00:36:32,754
Speaker 2: with some of the male billionaires too. She has had

769
00:36:32,834 --> 00:36:35,154
Speaker 2: lots of criticism for the people she's chosen to platform

770
00:36:35,194 --> 00:36:38,514
Speaker 2: over time. You know, we're talking about before racist like

771
00:36:38,514 --> 00:36:40,913
Speaker 2: the KKK. She got a lot of trouble on her

772
00:36:40,954 --> 00:36:43,194
Speaker 2: book club for James Fray, remember the guy with a

773
00:36:43,234 --> 00:36:46,914
Speaker 2: Million Little Pieces. We talked the other week about Jenny McCarthy,

774
00:36:46,994 --> 00:36:50,554
Speaker 2: the anti vaxxa, various kind of questionable health growers.

775
00:36:50,554 --> 00:36:53,314
Speaker 3: But then if you're on Telly for forty.

776
00:36:53,074 --> 00:36:56,994
Speaker 2: Years, making content in all kinds of different climates, you

777
00:36:57,074 --> 00:36:59,074
Speaker 2: are going to get it wrong sometimes. So she gets

778
00:36:59,114 --> 00:37:00,433
Speaker 2: a lot of criticism for all those things.

779
00:37:00,434 --> 00:37:02,994
Speaker 5: And like you said, because she's done so many firsts,

780
00:37:03,034 --> 00:37:06,274
Speaker 5: there's something by definition pushing the boundaries about what she does.

781
00:37:06,434 --> 00:37:07,114
Speaker 1: It's inevitable.

782
00:37:07,354 --> 00:37:09,594
Speaker 2: And also what's interesting about opes, as I like to

783
00:37:09,594 --> 00:37:12,274
Speaker 2: call it because we're such good friends, is one of

784
00:37:12,314 --> 00:37:14,914
Speaker 2: her pieces of magic, which I think some very famous

785
00:37:14,914 --> 00:37:17,433
Speaker 2: successful people have, is that even though they are so

786
00:37:17,594 --> 00:37:21,274
Speaker 2: unrelatable in every way, she sort of feels relatable too.

787
00:37:22,034 --> 00:37:24,393
Speaker 2: And one of the things that's interesting about Oprah in

788
00:37:24,514 --> 00:37:26,714
Speaker 2: terms of being one of the most iconic women of

789
00:37:26,754 --> 00:37:30,074
Speaker 2: a generation, is that her private life is quite unconventional

790
00:37:30,114 --> 00:37:31,394
Speaker 2: really so she's never married.

791
00:37:31,714 --> 00:37:32,473
Speaker 3: She's been with the.

792
00:37:32,434 --> 00:37:34,834
Speaker 2: Same and as Stedman. We could all recite this. They

793
00:37:34,834 --> 00:37:38,234
Speaker 2: have been together for forty years. They once got engaged

794
00:37:38,234 --> 00:37:39,994
Speaker 2: but quickly called it off, but never broke up.

795
00:37:39,994 --> 00:37:42,513
Speaker 1: Okaya, why they're just.

796
00:37:42,554 --> 00:37:45,114
Speaker 2: Not into it at that time in her life she

797
00:37:45,194 --> 00:37:48,993
Speaker 2: was always I prioritize work. You know, her life has

798
00:37:49,034 --> 00:37:52,354
Speaker 2: been work. She never had children after that tragic death

799
00:37:52,394 --> 00:37:54,554
Speaker 2: of that little boy when she was a teenager. Her

800
00:37:54,714 --> 00:37:57,913
Speaker 2: famous best friend Gail King, who is famous now too,

801
00:37:57,954 --> 00:38:00,474
Speaker 2: goes everywhere with it. In fact, my favorite Oprah detail

802
00:38:00,514 --> 00:38:02,473
Speaker 2: is that in all of her homes, which is the.

803
00:38:02,434 --> 00:38:05,234
Speaker 3: Kind of thing you can only say about billionaires, Gail.

804
00:38:04,994 --> 00:38:07,114
Speaker 2: Has her own room, like with her own deck or

805
00:38:07,274 --> 00:38:08,834
Speaker 2: I'm always like, if I was a moult.

806
00:38:08,794 --> 00:38:09,594
Speaker 3: That's what I'd do.

807
00:38:10,514 --> 00:38:12,514
Speaker 2: Gayla is the lover of her Gayle is the lover

808
00:38:12,554 --> 00:38:14,993
Speaker 2: of her life. You know, none of that is particularly

809
00:38:15,034 --> 00:38:19,034
Speaker 2: relatable business, but everybody's like, yeah, Oprah my position on her,

810
00:38:19,074 --> 00:38:20,393
Speaker 2: I would have liked to go and see her, even

811
00:38:20,434 --> 00:38:24,073
Speaker 2: though I do have some issues with the blatant product.

812
00:38:23,714 --> 00:38:26,554
Speaker 3: Placement of the aforementioned.

813
00:38:26,314 --> 00:38:29,114
Speaker 2: Medical weight loss company in that I don't necessarily like

814
00:38:29,154 --> 00:38:30,834
Speaker 2: her or not like her, but she's just there's no

815
00:38:30,994 --> 00:38:32,954
Speaker 2: question she's one of the most iconic figures.

816
00:38:33,114 --> 00:38:33,794
Speaker 3: I think it would have.

817
00:38:33,754 --> 00:38:35,913
Speaker 4: Been a lovely night. I would have really enjoyed it.

818
00:38:36,674 --> 00:38:40,154
Speaker 4: After the break, Travis Kelcey just shared an insight into

819
00:38:40,194 --> 00:38:43,314
Speaker 4: his relationship with Taylor Swift and apparently it's a big

820
00:38:43,354 --> 00:38:48,594
Speaker 4: red flag one unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes

821
00:38:48,674 --> 00:38:52,634
Speaker 4: every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and MEA subscribers.

822
00:38:53,114 --> 00:38:55,194
Speaker 4: Follow the link in the show notes to get us

823
00:38:55,194 --> 00:38:57,954
Speaker 4: in your ears five days a week, and a huge

824
00:38:57,994 --> 00:39:11,834
Speaker 4: thank you to all our current subscribers. If you're not

825
00:39:11,994 --> 00:39:15,554
Speaker 4: up to date with New Heights Travis Kelsey's podcast aka

826
00:39:15,834 --> 00:39:19,433
Speaker 4: Taylor Swift's fiance and a famous NFL player, I want

827
00:39:19,434 --> 00:39:21,914
Speaker 4: to tell you about an episode recently.

828
00:39:21,954 --> 00:39:24,314
Speaker 1: Do we all regularly podcast?

829
00:39:24,394 --> 00:39:26,873
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, it's a weekly listen. I've never listened to

830
00:39:26,954 --> 00:39:28,394
Speaker 4: one minute of this podcast.

831
00:39:28,434 --> 00:39:31,194
Speaker 2: Oh, I listened to the inter Taylor Holy Smokey's that

832
00:39:31,274 --> 00:39:32,834
Speaker 2: was great. That was two hours of my life.

833
00:39:32,954 --> 00:39:34,234
Speaker 4: Did you ever listen to another one?

834
00:39:34,394 --> 00:39:34,514
Speaker 5: No?

835
00:39:34,674 --> 00:39:35,314
Speaker 3: But I know.

836
00:39:36,034 --> 00:39:37,993
Speaker 2: But the reason I know what you're going to say

837
00:39:38,034 --> 00:39:40,234
Speaker 2: in a minute is because I did see these social

838
00:39:40,274 --> 00:39:43,473
Speaker 2: media clips where he was interviewing one George Clooney, who

839
00:39:43,834 --> 00:39:45,354
Speaker 2: you know up there with Oprah for me.

840
00:39:45,794 --> 00:39:48,953
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, So he had George Clooney on and they

841
00:39:48,994 --> 00:39:54,554
Speaker 4: got onto the topic of relationships. Travis asked his friend

842
00:39:54,554 --> 00:39:57,953
Speaker 4: George about something he'd said about a year or so ago,

843
00:39:58,034 --> 00:40:00,674
Speaker 4: which actually came up on our podcast as well, which

844
00:40:00,754 --> 00:40:04,634
Speaker 4: is that George Clooney said that him and Amle have not,

845
00:40:04,914 --> 00:40:08,234
Speaker 4: in their ten years together, had a fight.

846
00:40:09,154 --> 00:40:09,873
Speaker 3: Fun fact for you.

847
00:40:09,914 --> 00:40:13,314
Speaker 4: They've got twins, they do, and they seem to be thriving.

848
00:40:14,114 --> 00:40:16,794
Speaker 3: Well, you just have to be like George in a mile.

849
00:40:16,914 --> 00:40:19,154
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. Okay, that's really inspired.

850
00:40:19,154 --> 00:40:20,794
Speaker 3: I asked them to send you some positivity.

851
00:40:20,794 --> 00:40:23,954
Speaker 4: Made exactly right. They seem to like their twins. Okay,

852
00:40:23,994 --> 00:40:28,234
Speaker 4: this is great. Then George replied, I'm not lying, Travis.

853
00:40:28,274 --> 00:40:31,714
Speaker 4: Shall we ask you the same question? And Travis confessed

854
00:40:32,034 --> 00:40:34,234
Speaker 4: that while him and Taylor only been together for two

855
00:40:34,274 --> 00:40:37,994
Speaker 4: and a half years, they have never gotten into an argument.

856
00:40:37,834 --> 00:40:38,674
Speaker 3: Not once.

857
00:40:39,834 --> 00:40:42,914
Speaker 4: And then came the commentary. So there was a viral

858
00:40:43,074 --> 00:40:45,993
Speaker 4: tweet that was sharing that headline and it said this

859
00:40:46,074 --> 00:40:49,553
Speaker 4: is a bad sign. And Nowther said when couples say

860
00:40:49,634 --> 00:40:51,913
Speaker 4: this shit, all I can think is you're either a

861
00:40:51,914 --> 00:40:54,714
Speaker 4: psychopath or you view your partner the same way you

862
00:40:54,794 --> 00:40:57,593
Speaker 4: do a pet a pet. And an article on Mama

863
00:40:57,634 --> 00:41:02,594
Speaker 4: Mia called their lack of fighting a red flag, Amelia,

864
00:41:02,794 --> 00:41:03,874
Speaker 4: is it a red flag?

865
00:41:04,434 --> 00:41:07,834
Speaker 5: It's interesting that we kind of go back and fourth

866
00:41:08,314 --> 00:41:11,594
Speaker 5: as a society about what we think the gold standard is,

867
00:41:11,914 --> 00:41:14,513
Speaker 5: because in my life already, I feel like I've looked

868
00:41:14,514 --> 00:41:16,554
Speaker 5: through a couple of incoundations of this. There was a

869
00:41:16,634 --> 00:41:19,993
Speaker 5: time where the gold standard was no fighting, and then

870
00:41:19,994 --> 00:41:22,914
Speaker 5: it very much moved. I think we all got parrel pilled.

871
00:41:23,074 --> 00:41:26,873
Speaker 5: That's my phrase for the therapization of our culture by

872
00:41:26,994 --> 00:41:30,554
Speaker 5: Esther Perel and Esther Pearrel's basic idea is that you

873
00:41:30,594 --> 00:41:33,554
Speaker 5: can talk through anything, including an affair. She's basically like,

874
00:41:33,594 --> 00:41:36,754
Speaker 5: you know, setting aside abuse, obviously, you can work through

875
00:41:36,994 --> 00:41:39,314
Speaker 5: just about any relationship issue if you just.

876
00:41:39,314 --> 00:41:41,754
Speaker 4: Hash it out, have a little chat, go for it.

877
00:41:41,754 --> 00:41:44,714
Speaker 5: There's a Psychology Today headline that kind of summarizes where

878
00:41:44,714 --> 00:41:46,994
Speaker 5: we were as a culture around this issue for a

879
00:41:46,994 --> 00:41:49,914
Speaker 5: long time, which was if you never fight, someone is hiding.

880
00:41:50,154 --> 00:41:52,674
Speaker 5: So the idea is that if you're not fighting, it's

881
00:41:52,714 --> 00:41:55,874
Speaker 5: because you're repressing something, and that's a very unhealthy, even

882
00:41:55,994 --> 00:41:57,114
Speaker 5: toxic dynamic.

883
00:41:57,474 --> 00:41:58,314
Speaker 3: Is it that? Well?

884
00:41:58,314 --> 00:42:01,034
Speaker 5: But now it feels like we've now swung back, and

885
00:42:01,074 --> 00:42:04,033
Speaker 5: now we've got these two probably the two most kind

886
00:42:04,074 --> 00:42:08,194
Speaker 5: of iconic couples in the world right now, George and Lamar,

887
00:42:08,634 --> 00:42:12,473
Speaker 5: Taylor and Travis proudly declaring that they don't fight. I

888
00:42:12,514 --> 00:42:14,794
Speaker 5: think we've seen the pendulum swing back again.

889
00:42:15,034 --> 00:42:18,914
Speaker 4: Okay, unpopular opinion, all the money in the world, clean house,

890
00:42:19,714 --> 00:42:20,874
Speaker 4: not fighting over directions.

891
00:42:21,034 --> 00:42:23,354
Speaker 1: But they do have twins, as Holy says.

892
00:42:23,314 --> 00:42:26,554
Speaker 4: I know, but I think they would have some support

893
00:42:26,994 --> 00:42:27,953
Speaker 4: around them.

894
00:42:28,634 --> 00:42:31,234
Speaker 5: I think Taylor Travis actually have kind of a complicated

895
00:42:31,274 --> 00:42:32,074
Speaker 5: schedule to deal with.

896
00:42:32,154 --> 00:42:35,194
Speaker 1: He is a professional football player. She just did the

897
00:42:35,234 --> 00:42:37,033
Speaker 1: most successful tour of all time.

898
00:42:37,234 --> 00:42:39,674
Speaker 4: Can you imagine the g Cow for the the g

899
00:42:39,874 --> 00:42:45,634
Speaker 4: Cow would be intense. But I will also say, Google calendar, Oh.

900
00:42:44,794 --> 00:42:47,314
Speaker 3: God, we've still got a calendar in the kitchen on

901
00:42:47,354 --> 00:42:47,874
Speaker 3: the wall.

902
00:42:51,314 --> 00:42:55,154
Speaker 4: Taylor Taylor.

903
00:42:56,794 --> 00:42:58,234
Speaker 1: The blue is Travis's.

904
00:43:00,674 --> 00:43:02,234
Speaker 4: But you look at all those things and you also

905
00:43:02,274 --> 00:43:05,393
Speaker 4: go two and a half years, you don't have kids.

906
00:43:05,634 --> 00:43:07,514
Speaker 4: Do they have a shared mortgage. Yet I don't think

907
00:43:07,554 --> 00:43:11,714
Speaker 4: they'll have a mortgage, will they, Amelia? Maybe mortgage?

908
00:43:11,754 --> 00:43:13,194
Speaker 3: Imagine Taylor Travis.

909
00:43:12,914 --> 00:43:16,433
Speaker 4: At the back in there fight for alone. I don't

910
00:43:16,434 --> 00:43:18,913
Speaker 4: think that they're going to be there. So are there

911
00:43:18,994 --> 00:43:21,554
Speaker 4: less things to fight about when you're Travis.

912
00:43:21,314 --> 00:43:24,634
Speaker 2: And oh yeah, I think that Clooney said, what would

913
00:43:24,674 --> 00:43:25,474
Speaker 2: we fight about?

914
00:43:25,634 --> 00:43:28,393
Speaker 3: Question back? That must be one of the most privileged

915
00:43:28,474 --> 00:43:32,074
Speaker 3: statement questions we fight about.

916
00:43:33,074 --> 00:43:36,034
Speaker 4: Can you w the bench? I'll just get out cleaner.

917
00:43:36,074 --> 00:43:37,074
Speaker 4: Who's right here to do it?

918
00:43:37,234 --> 00:43:37,514
Speaker 3: Great?

919
00:43:37,914 --> 00:43:40,953
Speaker 5: George could be like, I hate human rights exactly.

920
00:43:42,514 --> 00:43:44,873
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Ama, you're too beautiful. Stop it.

921
00:43:45,834 --> 00:43:51,634
Speaker 2: I hate fighting, hate fighting, which is why my preferred

922
00:43:51,714 --> 00:43:56,114
Speaker 2: method is the much more insidious, toxic, passive aggressive fighting.

923
00:43:56,234 --> 00:43:58,794
Speaker 3: So instead of saying that you haven't cleaned the.

924
00:43:58,794 --> 00:44:04,074
Speaker 2: Bench, you say something like, interesting, how you chose to

925
00:44:04,234 --> 00:44:06,714
Speaker 2: just leave that little thing that like, you know, or whatever.

926
00:44:06,474 --> 00:44:07,674
Speaker 4: It is, which is a discussion.

927
00:44:07,794 --> 00:44:09,794
Speaker 3: It's a discussion, exactly.

928
00:44:10,314 --> 00:44:13,634
Speaker 2: Interesting, How you still don't know where this goes in

929
00:44:13,634 --> 00:44:13,993
Speaker 2: the cobo.

930
00:44:14,154 --> 00:44:16,953
Speaker 4: That's an observation, exactly, that's not a fire.

931
00:44:17,514 --> 00:44:18,074
Speaker 3: Interesting.

932
00:44:18,154 --> 00:44:21,634
Speaker 2: How you didn't put the lid back on the toothpaste. Yes,

933
00:44:21,914 --> 00:44:25,434
Speaker 2: that's just an invitation to explore your different techniques exactly

934
00:44:25,874 --> 00:44:29,314
Speaker 2: paste management. I think pass agnes is good.

935
00:44:29,834 --> 00:44:30,314
Speaker 5: I don't know.

936
00:44:30,674 --> 00:44:31,834
Speaker 3: I think it's interesting.

937
00:44:31,914 --> 00:44:34,634
Speaker 2: Tara from Amamea wrote, as you said that this was

938
00:44:34,674 --> 00:44:37,474
Speaker 2: a red flag and that she was worried about it

939
00:44:37,514 --> 00:44:40,393
Speaker 2: because she said, a huge part of any relationship is

940
00:44:40,474 --> 00:44:44,194
Speaker 2: conflict resolution and learning each other's fight styles. But what

941
00:44:44,314 --> 00:44:46,594
Speaker 2: if your two people who hate fighting? Are you supposed

942
00:44:46,594 --> 00:44:49,674
Speaker 2: to force yourself to fight? Because it's important to know,

943
00:44:49,794 --> 00:44:53,474
Speaker 2: maybe your fight style is to your point before Amelia hiding,

944
00:44:53,914 --> 00:44:57,714
Speaker 2: my fight style might be retreat, not attack.

945
00:44:57,994 --> 00:45:00,393
Speaker 1: You know what I don't think Esther Perel is a

946
00:45:00,514 --> 00:45:05,034
Speaker 1: huge fan of retreat. What's passive aggression with retreat? Well,

947
00:45:05,074 --> 00:45:06,194
Speaker 1: she has this interesting question.

948
00:45:06,234 --> 00:45:08,114
Speaker 5: She says, what most people don't realize is that you're

949
00:45:08,114 --> 00:45:10,674
Speaker 5: not actually fighting about money or commitment or who does

950
00:45:10,714 --> 00:45:13,594
Speaker 5: the housework. What you're actually fighting about is a lack.

951
00:45:13,394 --> 00:45:15,714
Speaker 1: Of affection, respect, power.

952
00:45:15,514 --> 00:45:18,234
Speaker 5: Or some combination of the three, just the two lit

953
00:45:19,194 --> 00:45:21,194
Speaker 5: Another way of thinking about this is that there's this

954
00:45:21,234 --> 00:45:24,274
Speaker 5: sort of like adage that every couple has the same

955
00:45:24,354 --> 00:45:27,433
Speaker 5: three fights and it just manifests in different ways. I

956
00:45:27,674 --> 00:45:29,513
Speaker 5: very much agree with that, and I guess those same

957
00:45:29,554 --> 00:45:32,513
Speaker 5: three fights are affection, respect, and power, And now even

958
00:45:32,594 --> 00:45:34,873
Speaker 5: Taylor and Travis and George and a mile are having

959
00:45:34,914 --> 00:45:37,913
Speaker 5: to navigate relationship dynamics where those things are flowing back

960
00:45:37,954 --> 00:45:38,394
Speaker 5: and forth.

961
00:45:38,474 --> 00:45:40,873
Speaker 4: This is about our definition of fight, yeah, and it's

962
00:45:40,914 --> 00:45:44,234
Speaker 4: about our definition of argument. I reckon that if you

963
00:45:44,834 --> 00:45:50,234
Speaker 4: are the child of parents who fought really openly, you

964
00:45:50,274 --> 00:45:53,194
Speaker 4: felt like you had to walk on eggshells. Sometimes I

965
00:45:53,194 --> 00:45:56,794
Speaker 4: think it's just temperament. You don't like to escalate, then

966
00:45:57,274 --> 00:45:59,674
Speaker 4: you might resist going to that. And I don't think

967
00:45:59,714 --> 00:46:01,874
Speaker 4: any way is necessarily better or worse.

968
00:46:02,554 --> 00:46:05,394
Speaker 1: Because don't you have a degree in psychology.

969
00:46:06,594 --> 00:46:11,114
Speaker 2: Us has a degree in psychology, And because you're identical twins.

970
00:46:11,114 --> 00:46:14,274
Speaker 2: If she's got a degree in psychology, do you psychology?

971
00:46:14,314 --> 00:46:15,513
Speaker 1: I thought it was a psychologist.

972
00:46:15,554 --> 00:46:17,234
Speaker 4: I have a master's in history.

973
00:46:17,594 --> 00:46:19,834
Speaker 1: Gender study, gender studies. There you go.

974
00:46:19,914 --> 00:46:22,714
Speaker 4: Both of them didn't give me a lot of clarity

975
00:46:22,754 --> 00:46:25,913
Speaker 4: on fighting, but I will say it did make me

976
00:46:25,994 --> 00:46:29,674
Speaker 4: good at arguing. And therefore, if you're I remember thinking

977
00:46:29,674 --> 00:46:31,473
Speaker 4: this at the time, George Cloone is just a clever

978
00:46:31,554 --> 00:46:33,754
Speaker 4: man not to fight with a human rights law. Yes,

979
00:46:34,234 --> 00:46:35,274
Speaker 4: that's what you just need to know.

980
00:46:35,274 --> 00:46:38,634
Speaker 5: You so true and son, who's the better fighter between

981
00:46:38,674 --> 00:46:40,393
Speaker 5: Taylor and Travis.

982
00:46:40,474 --> 00:46:42,314
Speaker 3: Taylor by about a thousand.

983
00:46:42,354 --> 00:46:43,074
Speaker 4: He's a poet.

984
00:46:44,074 --> 00:46:45,954
Speaker 3: Do remember that interview where.

985
00:46:45,754 --> 00:46:48,794
Speaker 1: He probably had some kind of brain She.

986
00:46:48,954 --> 00:46:51,154
Speaker 3: Used a couple of long words and he went wow.

987
00:46:53,434 --> 00:46:54,354
Speaker 1: But I reckon that you.

988
00:46:54,314 --> 00:46:57,154
Speaker 4: Can sort of disagree with things and there can be

989
00:46:57,194 --> 00:46:59,834
Speaker 4: points of tension in the relationship, but you wouldn't define

990
00:46:59,834 --> 00:47:03,714
Speaker 4: that as a fight, like there can be discussions. I

991
00:47:03,754 --> 00:47:06,394
Speaker 4: would think that in my own relationship, like we don't

992
00:47:06,674 --> 00:47:12,034
Speaker 4: like fighting, don't feel so, and even my I don't

993
00:47:12,074 --> 00:47:14,594
Speaker 4: fight with my mum, that doesn't mean that we don't

994
00:47:14,634 --> 00:47:18,994
Speaker 4: have moments of probably what would be considered conflict. And

995
00:47:18,994 --> 00:47:22,114
Speaker 4: I think that conflict management evolves in in that way.

996
00:47:22,154 --> 00:47:24,714
Speaker 4: But the idea that if you're I just think we

997
00:47:24,834 --> 00:47:26,913
Speaker 4: use the term red flag too liberally. Now we just

998
00:47:26,994 --> 00:47:29,114
Speaker 4: stick it on everything, and it's like, if your biggest

999
00:47:29,114 --> 00:47:32,114
Speaker 4: problem is that you get along too well, I think.

1000
00:47:31,954 --> 00:47:34,874
Speaker 5: You're so you're not worried for them, You're not losing

1001
00:47:34,954 --> 00:47:36,994
Speaker 5: any not losing a second.

1002
00:47:37,394 --> 00:47:38,234
Speaker 1: I'm selfish of you.

1003
00:47:38,674 --> 00:47:41,594
Speaker 2: I know people who love fighting and it's their dynamic

1004
00:47:41,674 --> 00:47:45,354
Speaker 2: and their relationship. They shout that good and they're shouting

1005
00:47:45,354 --> 00:47:47,433
Speaker 2: at each other and it gets all the sexual juicies going,

1006
00:47:47,394 --> 00:47:49,714
Speaker 2: and they love it, and if you're around them, as

1007
00:47:49,754 --> 00:47:52,714
Speaker 2: someone who hates fighting, you're very uncomfortable. I get very

1008
00:47:52,794 --> 00:47:55,754
Speaker 2: uncomfortable if people are fighting. I get very uncomfortable with retreats.

1009
00:47:55,754 --> 00:47:58,194
Speaker 3: See that doesn't mean they're right and I'm wrong. It's

1010
00:47:58,274 --> 00:47:59,234
Speaker 3: just different strokes.

1011
00:47:59,234 --> 00:48:01,874
Speaker 5: But do you feel like that kind of relationship where

1012
00:48:01,914 --> 00:48:04,114
Speaker 5: you are even observing the fighting. It's that sort of

1013
00:48:04,154 --> 00:48:06,834
Speaker 5: prevalent that people in their lives are watching them fight.

1014
00:48:07,634 --> 00:48:10,553
Speaker 5: That cannot actually be good for the relationship.

1015
00:48:10,754 --> 00:48:12,913
Speaker 1: So then to be fighting that much.

1016
00:48:12,794 --> 00:48:15,794
Speaker 2: No, But I think people would say we're getting things

1017
00:48:15,834 --> 00:48:18,114
Speaker 2: out in the open. We'd say, what we mean, we

1018
00:48:18,194 --> 00:48:20,754
Speaker 2: clear the air. You know how, there are some people

1019
00:48:20,754 --> 00:48:22,873
Speaker 2: who cry easily, and if you're not a cryer, you

1020
00:48:22,914 --> 00:48:25,234
Speaker 2: see them crying, you're like, oh my god. Yeah, you

1021
00:48:25,274 --> 00:48:27,074
Speaker 2: take it really seriously. And then you get to know

1022
00:48:27,114 --> 00:48:28,913
Speaker 2: them and you realize that it's not a big deal

1023
00:48:28,914 --> 00:48:31,474
Speaker 2: that they're crying. I think for some people, shouting and

1024
00:48:31,674 --> 00:48:34,074
Speaker 2: arguing is like that too, So you're thinking, oh, these

1025
00:48:34,114 --> 00:48:35,834
Speaker 2: guys are going to get divorced. They're fighting, and for

1026
00:48:35,874 --> 00:48:38,034
Speaker 2: them it's just Tuesday. You know, It's like I think

1027
00:48:38,434 --> 00:48:41,393
Speaker 2: different dynamics. But I think if you, as to your point, Jesse,

1028
00:48:41,514 --> 00:48:44,194
Speaker 2: if various things in your life made you feel like

1029
00:48:44,274 --> 00:48:46,993
Speaker 2: fighting is unsafe, that someone might leave at any time,

1030
00:48:47,074 --> 00:48:48,314
Speaker 2: like you're not going to be fighting.

1031
00:48:48,634 --> 00:48:51,594
Speaker 4: I read this theory. It's called the Little Fox's theory

1032
00:48:51,634 --> 00:48:54,114
Speaker 4: of couple fights, and it's a bit some quote from

1033
00:48:54,114 --> 00:48:56,554
Speaker 4: the Bible, the Fox's reference, But basically what it means

1034
00:48:56,994 --> 00:48:58,834
Speaker 4: is that most couples, when you get down to it,

1035
00:48:58,874 --> 00:49:01,553
Speaker 4: if you said, Amelia, explained to me your last fight

1036
00:49:01,714 --> 00:49:05,714
Speaker 4: with your partner, it would be over nothing like I

1037
00:49:05,714 --> 00:49:06,474
Speaker 4: wouldn't understand.

1038
00:49:06,554 --> 00:49:09,674
Speaker 5: Oh, the opposite of that idea that you're actually fighting

1039
00:49:09,714 --> 00:49:11,034
Speaker 5: about affection respect.

1040
00:49:11,234 --> 00:49:13,993
Speaker 4: Which you know what you probably are. That's the underlying thing.

1041
00:49:14,114 --> 00:49:16,634
Speaker 4: But in terms of what you're of speaking to a

1042
00:49:16,634 --> 00:49:19,674
Speaker 4: friend recently who had a fight with his partner, it's

1043
00:49:19,714 --> 00:49:23,354
Speaker 4: like a misinterpretation of a thing. And then someone snapped.

1044
00:49:23,674 --> 00:49:26,714
Speaker 4: The biggest fight Luker and I've ever had was when

1045
00:49:27,034 --> 00:49:29,594
Speaker 4: Luna was really little. It was late at night and

1046
00:49:29,634 --> 00:49:32,434
Speaker 4: I said you're up. I meant you're up, as in

1047
00:49:32,514 --> 00:49:35,393
Speaker 4: you're awake, could you take the baby? And he heard

1048
00:49:35,434 --> 00:49:39,634
Speaker 4: it as you're up, like look at you. Finally around

1049
00:49:39,634 --> 00:49:42,274
Speaker 4: to look after the baby, and it was this complete

1050
00:49:42,314 --> 00:49:48,074
Speaker 4: miscommunication of time that was about absolutely nothing. But underlying

1051
00:49:48,114 --> 00:49:50,354
Speaker 4: it was just two people that were really tired or

1052
00:49:50,394 --> 00:49:53,634
Speaker 4: whatever it is. And I think that often those little

1053
00:49:53,634 --> 00:49:55,513
Speaker 4: fights are about nothing at all.

1054
00:49:55,634 --> 00:49:58,394
Speaker 2: There is another option we haven't considered that maybe George

1055
00:49:58,434 --> 00:50:02,873
Speaker 2: Clooney Travis Kelcey are perfect people who always put the

1056
00:50:02,994 --> 00:50:06,514
Speaker 2: lid back on the toothpaste, who never give their partners

1057
00:50:06,554 --> 00:50:08,913
Speaker 2: any reason and to be angry with them in any way.

1058
00:50:09,114 --> 00:50:10,154
Speaker 3: Is this a possibility?

1059
00:50:10,234 --> 00:50:14,473
Speaker 4: Yeah, and seem pretty agreeable and they married perfect people.

1060
00:50:15,274 --> 00:50:15,794
Speaker 3: That's it.

1061
00:50:16,274 --> 00:50:18,634
Speaker 4: Maybe that's the life hack that we all forgot.

1062
00:50:18,714 --> 00:50:21,114
Speaker 2: I wonder if Brent says this about me, because Clooney

1063
00:50:21,154 --> 00:50:22,993
Speaker 2: said neither of us are going to win. I've met

1064
00:50:22,994 --> 00:50:25,954
Speaker 2: this incredible woman. She's beautiful and smart, and she stands

1065
00:50:25,954 --> 00:50:28,394
Speaker 2: for all the most important things I believe in the world.

1066
00:50:28,634 --> 00:50:30,834
Speaker 3: And I can't believe how lucky I am. So what

1067
00:50:30,914 --> 00:50:32,114
Speaker 3: am I going to fight about?

1068
00:50:32,314 --> 00:50:36,514
Speaker 4: I reckon Breds, you stand for Hollywayen Right, is George cleaning?

1069
00:50:36,554 --> 00:50:39,714
Speaker 3: I'm here for George. Well, this has been fun.

1070
00:50:39,834 --> 00:50:42,513
Speaker 2: Friends out louders, thank you for having us in your

1071
00:50:42,554 --> 00:50:45,074
Speaker 2: ears on this Monday don't forget, of course, that you

1072
00:50:45,114 --> 00:50:46,194
Speaker 2: can watch us on YouTube.

1073
00:50:46,354 --> 00:50:47,714
Speaker 3: We'll talk to you tomorrow.

1074
00:50:48,034 --> 00:50:56,274
Speaker 4: Bye. Mum and mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of the

1075
00:50:56,354 --> 00:50:58,594
Speaker 4: land on which we have recorded this podcast.