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Speaker 1: It's June five, two thousand and eight, and Jody Arius

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Speaker 1: has just arrived in West Jordan, Utah.

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Speaker 2: She's an entire day late.

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Speaker 1: She was supposed to be arriving yesterday after road tripping

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Speaker 1: from California to meet her former colleague and potential new

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Speaker 1: love interest, Ryan Burns. He gave up calling her when

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Speaker 1: it just kept ringing out, But now she's finally here,

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Speaker 1: and Ryan, who's been messaging with Jody for a couple

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Speaker 1: of months now, is taken aback by her change of appearance.

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Speaker 1: Her blonde hair has been dyed brown, and she has

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Speaker 1: bandages and cuts on her hands. I got lost, she

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Speaker 1: tells him when he asks why she was so late.

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Speaker 1: I didn't hear the phone ring is her excuse for

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Speaker 1: all the missed calls. I cut myself on a glass

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Speaker 1: while working as a bartender, she says, of her injuries.

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Speaker 1: Ryan moves. The conversation on Jody is completely normal. She's chatty, flirty, laughs.

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Speaker 2: Along to his jokes. All seems fine, but Jody is.

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Speaker 1: Hiding a secret. There is a gruesome, horrifying reason she

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Speaker 1: is a day late, and pretty soon the entire world

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Speaker 1: is going to find out about it. I'm Jemma Bath

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Speaker 1: and You're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring

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Speaker 1: the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people

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Speaker 1: who know the most about them. A day after killing

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Speaker 1: her former lover, Jody Arius, was already pursuing a new

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Speaker 1: potential love interest, because that.

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Speaker 2: Was what she'd been doing.

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Speaker 1: On June four, the then twenty seven year old drove

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Speaker 1: to Travis Alexander's home and inflicted such violence on him

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Speaker 1: that she would find herself being tried for the death penalty.

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Speaker 2: They didn't commit a murder. I didn't hurt Travis. I

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Speaker 2: would never hurt Travis whenever harm him physically. I may

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Speaker 2: have heard him emotionally, and I'll always regret that I

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Speaker 2: was on the road that week. I don't know a

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Speaker 2: lot about that, but I do I did hear that

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Speaker 2: there was quite a struggle. I really don't remember the

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Speaker 2: day at all. I just remember when I got the

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Speaker 2: phone call. I need to be honest in it. The

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Speaker 2: evidence is very compelling, but none of it proves that

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Speaker 2: I committed a murder.

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Speaker 1: This is a case that captivated worldwide audiences. Jody's trial

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Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen was one of the most sensational and

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Speaker 1: widely publicized criminal trials in US history.

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Speaker 2: The media was obsessed what.

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Speaker 1: Drove a young, attractive woman to kill so violently? How

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Speaker 1: many lies and mistruths did Jody tell over the course

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Speaker 1: of her arrest.

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Speaker 2: Imprisonment, and sentence.

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Speaker 1: Was she really attacked and abused by Travis as she claims,

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Speaker 1: or was she the only aggressor in this relationship? These

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Speaker 1: were just some of the questions journalist Brianna Whitney was

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Speaker 1: hoping to explore in her documentary for True Crime Arizona

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Speaker 1: Obsessed Unraveling Joy. Last year, she revisited the case that

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Speaker 1: at the time was being described.

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Speaker 2: As a real life soup opera.

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Speaker 1: Brianna joins us, Now, Brianna, what fascinated you about this case?

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Speaker 2: Why did you want to tell this story? You know,

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Speaker 2: I have seen so many true crime cases that are

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Speaker 2: unfolding currently that are in the past, that are cold cases,

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Speaker 2: and I think something that I've noticed as far as

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Speaker 2: long form true crime storytelling goes, there is definitely a

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Speaker 2: fascination now with cases that happened that were very high profile,

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Speaker 2: just even due to the changes now versus then. So

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Speaker 2: with Jodi Arius, she was a huge name. It was

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Speaker 2: a wildly salacious case, and things that happened then, like

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Speaker 2: her having a Twitter manager and the kind of rhetoric

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Speaker 2: that was going down in the courtroom, I don't think

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Speaker 2: that would have happened now in the same way. And

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Speaker 2: so I thought, what could we do to look at

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Speaker 2: the case again. It's a big name. People who are

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Speaker 2: interested in true crime want to learn more about these cases.

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Speaker 2: There's a whole other generation of people coming up who

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Speaker 2: are interested in true crime who maybe weren't old enough

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Speaker 2: at the time that Jody Aius happened that want to

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Speaker 2: learn about it. So we thought, let's look into this.

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Speaker 2: But it's been done a lot. How can we do

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Speaker 2: this differently? And I think for us now, with everybody's

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Speaker 2: fascination with kind of the criminal mindset of things, we

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Speaker 2: thought doing a deep dive into her psychology would really

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Speaker 2: be something that was a little bit different. And when

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Speaker 2: I got the police report and was able to look

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Speaker 2: at her journal entrees and her emails and her IM

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Speaker 2: messages and really go through all of them, it became

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Speaker 2: this clear pattern of somebody and the writings that I

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Speaker 2: hadn't seen a ton of out there about everything. And

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Speaker 2: so when I was able to do that, and then

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Speaker 2: learning she was running a blog from prison. Now it

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Speaker 2: kind of set up this psychological look at the case

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Speaker 2: that was a little bit differ than what had been

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Speaker 2: out there before. I want to start with Travis as

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Speaker 2: the victim in this story. Can you paint us.

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Speaker 1: A picture of who he was, where he was living,

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Speaker 1: what he was doing with his life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so. Travis Alexander was thirty years old, he

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Speaker 2: was super outgoing, he was a devout Mormon of the

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Speaker 2: LDS faith, and he was living in Mesa, Arizona. And

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Speaker 2: just to kind of give people a geographic location for that,

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Speaker 2: Phoenix is pretty big and Mesa is also a very

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Speaker 2: large city here in Arizona in the valley just outside Phoenix.

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Speaker 2: It's east of Phoenix. So it all kind of functions

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Speaker 2: as one big part of this Phoenix metropolitan area. Masa's

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Speaker 2: heavily populated. Travis was a big part of his faith,

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Speaker 2: he was a big part of his business, and so

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Speaker 2: he would go to these conventions, had a lot of friends,

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Speaker 2: was almost like a motivational speaker of sorts, and he

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Speaker 2: was kind of a pillar for his family. The siblings.

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Speaker 2: The Alexander siblings lost their parents not a a lot

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Speaker 2: before this happened, and Travis was kind of the one

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Speaker 2: they described and the friends describe that really kind of

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Speaker 2: held the family together, and so you could kind of

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Speaker 2: tell he was that natural born leader. He was funny.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think people described him, and they did

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Speaker 2: in our documentary as being very drawn to him. You

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Speaker 2: wanted to be his friend, you wanted to be in

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Speaker 2: the room with him, and he would command a room.

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Speaker 2: And so I think he had that kind of reputation

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Speaker 2: with the people that he surrounded himself with. How did

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Speaker 2: he make Jodi? So they both were working for a

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Speaker 2: company called Legal Shield. They met in two thousand and

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Speaker 2: six at a work conference in Las Vegas, And that

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Speaker 2: is an interesting part of all of this because nobody

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Speaker 2: knew her before. He liked to date different women. He

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Speaker 2: was trying to find his forever wife, and he was

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Speaker 2: very instantly attracted to Jody when he met her. She

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Speaker 2: was very alluring, very pretty. She seemed to share are

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Speaker 2: a lot of the same values, and so he actually

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Speaker 2: ended up bringing her to a dinner that night at

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Speaker 2: the conference with his friends. It was a dinner for

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Speaker 2: basically like people who had performed well in the company.

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Speaker 2: Had made a lot of sales and had done well,

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Speaker 2: and it was to celebrate their accomplishments. And he brought

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Speaker 2: Jody after meeting her that day, and then that's kind

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Speaker 2: of where everything started. And the friends immediately thought she

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Speaker 2: was a bit off, didn't they. Yeah, I mean they

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Speaker 2: thought she was really nice at first, but pretty quickly

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Speaker 2: after that they realized she was pretty needy. She just seemed, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that there was something more more there, and I think

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Speaker 2: at first they didn't quite know what that was. They

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Speaker 2: send something was off, kind of like that gut feeling

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Speaker 2: that you have when you know something's kind of wrong,

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Speaker 2: but you can't quite pinpoint what it is. That seemed

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Speaker 2: to be the way that they felt about Jody. And

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Speaker 2: then as time went on, I think they were able

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Speaker 2: to determine that there was a neediness and a clinginess

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Speaker 2: that was unhealthy. That's where things kind of unraveled from there.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, at first they thought she was nice, she

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Speaker 2: was pretty, but something was off. How did their relationship evolve?

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Speaker 2: What did it look like?

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Speaker 1: Because they lived quite a fayaway apot, so it was

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Speaker 1: a long distance relationship at the beginning, at least.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, most of the relationship was long distance because by

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Speaker 2: the time she actually moved to Arizona, they had broken up,

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Speaker 2: so really their whole relationship was long distance. So she

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Speaker 2: was living in California and eventually in very northern California,

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Speaker 2: like a remote, wooded small part of California, not like

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Speaker 2: a metropolitan area, so it's even harder for her to

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Speaker 2: get from there to Phoenix, Mesa here where he was.

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Speaker 2: And they would often meet up at their friend Sky's house,

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Speaker 2: who lived in southern California. It was kind of like

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Speaker 2: a half wayish point between, and then they would go

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Speaker 2: to work conferences and they would you go to these

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Speaker 2: kind of trips together and things like that. But a

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Speaker 2: lot of their relationship, honestly, there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: you know, Yahoo messenger, Aim messenger that was very popular

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Speaker 2: at the time, and phone calls and things like that.

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Speaker 2: But it was very much, you know, she was trying

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Speaker 2: to get him to, I think commit more to her.

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Speaker 2: She wanted him to invite her out to live in Arizona.

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Speaker 2: I think she always was looking for more, and I

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Speaker 2: think as they evolved, she kind of had him under

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Speaker 2: her finger a bit in terms of controlling the situation.

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Speaker 2: She's very manipulative and so I think that she used

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Speaker 2: sex and sex appeal as a way to keep him

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Speaker 2: on his toes because she and Travis had this secret

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Speaker 2: that they were having a sexual relationship, which was very

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Speaker 2: against the Mormon faith, and Travis knew that, and he

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Speaker 2: was kind of perpetuating that too. I mean, prior to

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Speaker 2: the murder, these two had a very tumultuous, toxic relationship

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Speaker 2: that both of them played a part in.

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Speaker 1: So Trevis, he was obviously pawtaking in this sexual relationship,

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Speaker 1: but he felt bad bad at or was keeping it

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Speaker 1: a secret from his community.

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Speaker 2: What was happening there. You know, it's a good question,

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Speaker 2: because I think there was. I think both of those

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Speaker 2: statements you just said were true. I think he did

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Speaker 2: feel bad about it, knowing that that wasn't part of

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Speaker 2: his faith and he shouldn't be doing it, but he

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Speaker 2: liked it so much and he, you know, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to say he was addicted to it, but I

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Speaker 2: think there was an allure there that he couldn't escape,

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Speaker 2: and Jody knew it. And so I think the two

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Speaker 2: of them often would would get in these spats and

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Speaker 2: then you know, Jody would be like, well, you're not

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Speaker 2: going to get this from others and and Travis would

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Speaker 2: fall in line with that too. You know, he had

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Speaker 2: told her at one point, I don't think that I

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Speaker 2: will ever be sexually fulfilled ever again because you're so good,

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Speaker 2: and she was able to use that time and time again.

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Speaker 2: And to be clear, Jody.

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Speaker 1: Isn't Mormon, so having sex is fine as far as

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Speaker 1: her religion is is concerned.

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Speaker 2: Yes and no. So she was not Mormon, so yeah,

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Speaker 2: at that time it was. But she ended up getting

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Speaker 2: baptized to be Mormon by Travis, right, Okay, so yes,

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Speaker 2: she also knew that, but I think you know she

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Speaker 2: was at that point she was in the anything for Travis.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do anything. She wanted to be his

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Speaker 2: forever person, and I think Travis knew that because of

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Speaker 2: what they were doing, she wasn't ever going to be

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Speaker 2: that forever person, because ultimately, even though he was partaking

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Speaker 2: in all of it, he was looking for a woman

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Speaker 2: of Mormon faith who had the same values that he

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Speaker 2: believed to even if he wasn't following them at the time.

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Speaker 1: On a surface level, hearing you talk about her, she

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Speaker 1: sounds like a normal woman in love who wants to

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Speaker 1: be intimate with her partner, who wants to be close

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Speaker 1: to him, who wants to move to be around him.

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Speaker 1: So where does this toxicity come from? Is there any

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Speaker 1: violence or abuse or anything like that that we know

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Speaker 1: of within the relationship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a lot of cat and mouth. Was

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Speaker 2: kind of taunting each other, breaking up, getting back together.

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Speaker 2: You did this, You're horrible, but I love this about you.

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Speaker 2: Things like that. That a lot of one eighty back

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Speaker 2: and forth, flip flop flip flop about you know, how

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Speaker 2: they felt about each other. But I think where the

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Speaker 2: action started coming into play was this neediness that turned

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Speaker 2: into almost stalking. So when Travis would be in like

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Speaker 2: a closed door conversation with his friends, Jody would wait

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Speaker 2: outside the door listening. She would show up at his

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Speaker 2: house in the kitchen when he was with other girls

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Speaker 2: after they broke up, or when he was dating other

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Speaker 2: women which Jody knew about. She would crawl into his

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Speaker 2: doggy door and into his bed naked. She would, you know,

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Speaker 2: she would come to a party that she wasn't invited

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Speaker 2: to at his house and there was no room for

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Speaker 2: her to stay, and Travis told her that and Jody

237
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Speaker 2: was like, oh, I'll just sleep under the Christmas Tree, weird,

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Speaker 2: weird things that are concerning, and I think once Travis

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Speaker 2: decided this isn't for me, Jody never really let that go.

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Speaker 2: She was always there trying to be like, pick me,

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Speaker 2: pick me, I'm here, I'm here. And that's where things

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Speaker 2: I think started to go really downhill, from just like

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Speaker 2: needingess to concerning behavior.

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Speaker 1: Can wait back up a bit, take us back to

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Speaker 1: Jodie's life. Pray Travis, because this behavior you're talking about

246
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Speaker 1: the most stalker tendencies. You found evidence of that happening

247
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Speaker 1: a lot earlier with other people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we didn't know that, You're right. Yeah, before

249
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Speaker 2: we did the documentary. There wasn't a ton out there

250
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Speaker 2: on Jody's life before, and part of that was because

251
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Speaker 2: her family has not been overly media friendly. And I mean,

252
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Speaker 2: I get it right, this is a horrible crime. So

253
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Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot that we knew. I mean, we

254
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Speaker 2: knew that there was some discourse with kind of her family.

255
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Speaker 2: I think there was, you know, she claimed that they

256
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Speaker 2: would hit her with a spoon, and there was definitely

257
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Speaker 2: some allegations there that things weren't weren't perfect by any means.

258
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Speaker 2: We didn't know a ton about her until we learned

259
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Speaker 2: from a high school classmate of hers up in Wyrika, California,

260
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Speaker 2: that there was some I don't know, history repeating itself,

261
00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,480
Speaker 2: so to speak. So in high school she had had

262
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Speaker 2: a boyfriend as well, and they broke up, and then

263
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,520
Speaker 2: a lot of people from high school called her popping

264
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Speaker 2: up outside his window stalking him with other people as well.

265
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Speaker 2: And that's, you know, a little disturbing in and of itself,

266
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Speaker 2: but it's exactly what happened with Travis. I think the

267
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Speaker 2: way that I kind of deduced that after we learned

268
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,720
Speaker 2: it was just this is somebody who if she's into

269
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Speaker 2: somebody and she's rejected or it doesn't work, and she

270
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 2: still wants to be with them, she will stop at

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Speaker 2: nothing to be still part of their life and try

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Speaker 2: to make her way back in. And I think when

273
00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,800
Speaker 2: we learned she had other boyfriends too. In fact, there's

274
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Speaker 2: one that ended up testifying in the trial of somebody

275
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,080
Speaker 2: she dated before Travis. But I think that that guy

276
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Speaker 2: was fully in it with her and that may have

277
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Speaker 2: been boring to her, and eventually they broke up, but

278
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Speaker 2: it was probably amicable because she didn't have the interest

279
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Speaker 2: in that And I don't think that he ever fully

280
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Speaker 2: rejected her as maybe this high school boyfriend did in Travis.

281
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Speaker 2: So it does seem that she she had a real

282
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Speaker 2: issue with rejection or loss of somebody she really wanted

283
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Speaker 2: to be with, and just had some control problems with

284
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Speaker 2: maybe processing and self soothing on that.

285
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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a bit more about moving to

286
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,720
Speaker 1: be near Travis, because you mentioned that she did that

287
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,400
Speaker 1: when they weren't in a relationship, So that's a pretty

288
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,840
Speaker 1: full long thing to do. She moves basically across the

289
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Speaker 1: country and pops up around the corner from him and

290
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Speaker 1: they're not together. How long did that last and what

291
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:52,920
Speaker 1: did that look like?

292
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Speaker 2: Not super long? So she moved here. I think it

293
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,560
Speaker 2: was in like April that she had moved here. She

294
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,600
Speaker 2: wasn't here super long, but she had. Yeah, they had

295
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,920
Speaker 2: broken up. She moves here and Travis is like, why

296
00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,480
Speaker 2: are you moving here? We broke up? And I think

297
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,760
Speaker 2: she's you know, Jodie's smart, She's really smart, and I

298
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,080
Speaker 2: think she knew, Hey, I've got this thing that I

299
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,440
Speaker 2: can hold over to Travis, and that's sex, and that's

300
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 2: a relationship that he's not going this type of relationship.

301
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,760
Speaker 2: He's not going to have with somebody of his faith,

302
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,880
Speaker 2: and I think she thought the closer she was in proximity,

303
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,240
Speaker 2: the better chance she had about getting back with Travis,

304
00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,960
Speaker 2: and nothing was going to stop her. So she moves here,

305
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,840
Speaker 2: and you know, that really stressed him out because I

306
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,280
Speaker 2: think they were still hooking up, but they weren't ever

307
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,000
Speaker 2: in a relationship, and I think it was kind of

308
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,520
Speaker 2: the she was never going to let him get away

309
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,560
Speaker 2: type thing. But because they weren't back together, and they

310
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 2: didn't get back together, she ended up moving back to Wyreka,

311
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:59,360
Speaker 2: California a few months before the murder happened, So she

312
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,080
Speaker 2: wasn't here very long and I don't think it worked

313
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,080
Speaker 2: out in the way that she wanted in her favor,

314
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Speaker 2: and so when it didn't work out that way, she

315
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,399
Speaker 2: was like, I guess I'll go back. But when she

316
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 2: moved back to California, it wasn't super long after that

317
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:15,399
Speaker 2: that the murder took place, and they was still communicating

318
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Speaker 2: during that time. Absolutely, Yep, there was some back and forth.

319
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,919
Speaker 2: She wanted Travis to visit her in Wyrika, and he

320
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,920
Speaker 2: even said, I don't know this is a good idea,

321
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Speaker 2: you know, I just know that there's probably many fights

322
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Speaker 2: that we would have. I mean, they were constantly fighting,

323
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Speaker 2: and I think too in addition to him not visiting her,

324
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Speaker 2: he was also taking another girl to his Cancoon trip,

325
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,840
Speaker 2: which was like a half fun trip, half work trip,

326
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Speaker 2: and it wasn't Jody and Jody knew that, and they

327
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,639
Speaker 2: were messaging about that in the days leading up to

328
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,840
Speaker 2: the murder too, So I think he had moved on.

329
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Speaker 2: I don't think Jody liked it, and.

330
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Speaker 1: They had a big blow up about that, right because

331
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Speaker 1: you guys talk about this big fight that they have

332
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Speaker 1: kind of like May, was it about Cancun?

333
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,679
Speaker 2: Was it about this lady? I don't think so. We

334
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,360
Speaker 2: don't know, and that's kind of part of this issue.

335
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,520
Speaker 2: There's a lot of back and forth in that late

336
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 2: May fight about you know, you're a horrible person, this

337
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,200
Speaker 2: and that. But the way that Travis's friend describes that

338
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,840
Speaker 2: fight is that there was something that Jodie was going

339
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,160
Speaker 2: to tell Travis in person, she wouldn't put it in writing.

340
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 2: There was possible legal implications. It was odd, and we

341
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,280
Speaker 2: don't know if that conversation ever was had. We don't

342
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,359
Speaker 2: know what exactly it was about. Was it, you know,

343
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 2: did she think or was somebody going to expose their relationship.

344
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,800
Speaker 2: Was there something she had done that was, you know,

345
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:47,159
Speaker 2: not legal. We don't really know, and so that fight

346
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,800
Speaker 2: specifically is kind of a question mark. But Travis's friend

347
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,120
Speaker 2: described that as everything really started going downhill with more

348
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,280
Speaker 2: fights and everything like that after that fight, and she's right,

349
00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,880
Speaker 2: she described that fight on May twenty, and you can

350
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,200
Speaker 2: clearly see in emails and im messages back and forth

351
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,879
Speaker 2: in the days after that and before Travis was killed,

352
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,600
Speaker 2: there was definitely some discontent going on there. So, yeah,

353
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,520
Speaker 2: we don't know. We don't know if that was in

354
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 2: relation to Cancun or not. We know that they had

355
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,200
Speaker 2: some conversation about Cancun because he said he was going

356
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,639
Speaker 2: and she was asking and clarifying the dates, which I

357
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,399
Speaker 2: also think was you know, clarifying the dates to know

358
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,400
Speaker 2: when he was going to be in Arizona and when

359
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 2: he wasn't, And she knew when he was going to

360
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 2: be here and when he was supposed to go to Cancun.

361
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,560
Speaker 2: So I think that once she learned that information, she

362
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 2: did plan some of her visit in an ultimate murder

363
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,119
Speaker 2: here because of it, it brings.

364
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,360
Speaker 1: Us to the road trip that she's taking or takes

365
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,520
Speaker 1: in early June, and the plan is to head to

366
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:51,399
Speaker 1: Utah to meet another man, not Travis. Can you tell

367
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,359
Speaker 1: us about what that road trip was supposed to look like?

368
00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the journal that Jodi wrote in was very

369
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,160
Speaker 2: detailed leading up to the murder too, and ultimately now

370
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,159
Speaker 2: we believe that she was trying to set up an

371
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 2: alibi for herself. So we knew based on her journal

372
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,480
Speaker 2: that she was supposed to leave from Wyrika, California, so

373
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Speaker 2: way north and kind of go down the California coast

374
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 2: before she was going to head east to Utah. So

375
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,360
Speaker 2: that was going to include some stops in I think Redding, Pasadena, California.

376
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 2: She stopped in the like the Monterey area and visited

377
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 2: with an ex boyfriend, Darryl, that was named in the

378
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 2: journal as well, and then she would be going over

379
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 2: to Utah to meet up with a guy named Ryan

380
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 2: Burns who also was with the company. The friends knew

381
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,800
Speaker 2: Ryan Burns, they thought maybe they'd be a good match.

382
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:42,680
Speaker 2: She had been talking to Ryan. You could also see

383
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,399
Speaker 2: that in the journal, and that was the plan. There

384
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 2: was also a work conference that was going on in

385
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 2: Utah as well, So basically it was like a hit

386
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 2: two birds with one still and I'm going to hang

387
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 2: out with Ryan. I'm going to see how that goes.

388
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 2: And I'm also going to be there for the work

389
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,119
Speaker 2: conference that all of these friends were all a part of.

390
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 2: So that's how the road trip was supposed to go.

391
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 2: When she eventually.

392
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 1: Turns up in Utah a daylight, which is a very

393
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: important part. Yeah, what do the friends and Ryan notice

394
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 1: about her?

395
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 2: Because she looks very different. Yes, so she had dyed

396
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 2: her hair. She used to be blonde, she was now brunette.

397
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 2: But maybe even more shocking than that was that she

398
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 2: came with a long sleeved shirt on and band aids

399
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 2: all on her fingers, and they asked her, like Jody one,

400
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 2: where were you too? Why do you have all these

401
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,239
Speaker 2: band aids on your fingers? And her response there was

402
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 2: that she was bartending or something and had gotten cuts

403
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 2: on her fingers, which that's a weird response in and

404
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,880
Speaker 2: of itself because she's not a bartender. Well right, yeah,

405
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 2: she's not a bartender, and what was she doing? Like,

406
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 2: and again, even if you did hit something, why would

407
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 2: you have band aids on multiple fingers? It just didn't

408
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: make any sense, And her friends thought that was super weird,

409
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,439
Speaker 2: but they also knew she could be weird, so they

410
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 2: were kind of like, okay, weird, but whatever. On the

411
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 2: road trip part of it, though, she said that she

412
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 2: you know, she broke down and she got lost, and

413
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 2: her phone wasn't charged, and you know, she had to

414
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 2: get gas cans to fill up the gas in the car,

415
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 2: and she had to sleep on the side, you know,

416
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,199
Speaker 2: all of that. She had an excuse for all of

417
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 2: this and that's why she was late. But what was

418
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 2: also weird about this was not only was she late

419
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 2: and had the band aids on her fingers, but Jody

420
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 2: wants to be included in things, right, Like that's her

421
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 2: her mo is, like, I want to be part of it.

422
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 2: I want to be this person that everybody wants to

423
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 2: be with if they want to be round, especially especially

424
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,920
Speaker 2: the guys. So when they were supposed to go four

425
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 2: wheeling the next day in the conference after their conference

426
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 2: meetings were wrapped up, she leaves she doesn't do the activity,

427
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,239
Speaker 2: and the friends immediately clock that as weird too, like

428
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 2: she would normally jump at the bit to be included

429
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 2: and then spend more time with Ryan. So there was

430
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 2: three weird things off the bat right, the band aids

431
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 2: on the fingers, the wall, long sleeve shirt, and it

432
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 2: was hot, it was summer. She's a whole day late

433
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 2: and has this whole excuse for what's going on with

434
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 2: this road trip and why she was late, and then

435
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 2: she leaves early, which is unlike her too, and all

436
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 2: of that happens, and in her journal she ends up writing,

437
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 2: Utah was amazing, with a bunch of exclamation points. Wish

438
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:25,880
Speaker 2: I could have stayed longer. So it was a lot.

439
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me, Jemma Bass.

440
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with true crime journalist and host of the

441
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 1: True Crime Arizona podcast, Brianna Whitney. Up next, we learn

442
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 1: when Travis's body was finally found, the strange way it

443
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 1: was discovered, and what the brutal crime scene looked like.

444
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: So this is around the fifth of June that she

445
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: arrives in Utah. When is Travis's body found? And how

446
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: is his body found?

447
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so his body wasn't found for five days after

448
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 2: that life. Yeah, it's one of the more perplexing parts

449
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,120
Speaker 2: of this case because he does have roommates and they

450
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 2: were home and they didn't realize what was going on,

451
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,239
Speaker 2: And a lot of people have said, wait, wouldn't he

452
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 2: you know, wouldn't there start to be a smell? And

453
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 2: I think they all thought that the smell that seeped

454
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 2: in eventually was Travis's dog, like maybe having an accident.

455
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 2: They just didn't put tune two together, and they've received

456
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 2: a lot of flak for that. Part of the reason

457
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 2: though they didn't put Tune two together was because they

458
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 2: thought Travis was supposed to be in Cancum. So that's

459
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: what ends up playing the part here. Travis doesn't show

460
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 2: up in Cancun. He's not even answering his phone for

461
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: the work conference call, and his friends immediately are like,

462
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,479
Speaker 2: that's not like Travis. This is really weird. So when

463
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 2: he doesn't answer the call and then he doesn't show

464
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: up in Cancun, they are super concerned, understandably so, so

465
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 2: the friends call other friends back in Arizona saying, hey,

466
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 2: can you go check on Travis. This is odd. So

467
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: they go to the house and the roommate answers the

468
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: door and they're like, have you seen Travis? Like where's Travis?

469
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: And he's like, he's in Cancun. And the friends that

470
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: went to the door, were like, no, he's supposed to

471
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 2: go to Kancun with me, and he's not answering. We

472
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 2: can't find him anywhere. So eventually one of the friends

473
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: is able to gain access to Travis's bedroom door. I

474
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 2: don't know if he had an extra cure he was

475
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 2: able to like figure out how it was locked. But

476
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: they go in there and they find a horrific scene.

477
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: Travis is dead in his shower. He is completely bloody,

478
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 2: stabbed twenty seven times, he's shot, and just a horrific scene.

479
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: He's naked in the shower, and they are just absolutely stunned.

480
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 2: I mean at this point they're like, this is one

481
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 2: brutal overkill of a murder. But on top of that,

482
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 2: who would have wanted to do that? And so pretty

483
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 2: quickly after police get there, a lot of the friends

484
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 2: start saying, oh, Jody, it's how to be Jody. But

485
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 2: when you look at Jody, this petite, you know, young

486
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: beautiful woman, and then you look at the crime, it

487
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: is very hard to compute how that person could pull

488
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 2: off that crime on their own. And so of course,

489
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: you know, police are taking in this information like okay,

490
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 2: they're giving us this name, Jody Arius but there was

491
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: going to have to be a lot more evidence collected

492
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: to be able to prove something like that.

493
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: While combing through that crime scene, a camera was found.

494
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: Tell me about that. A lot of questions were answered

495
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 2: with that camera. So the camera's found in the washing

496
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 2: machine and it's like one of those digital cameras from

497
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 2: you know, back in two thousand and eight, and it's

498
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 2: not working because it's in the washing machine. But what

499
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 2: I don't think was real was that you could extract

500
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 2: the card from that try to put that through forensics

501
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: and see what you could find. And what they found

502
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: was very damning evidence. So on this digital camera, there

503
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: are pictures from that day that are timestamped. The date

504
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 2: is June fourth, so this gives us now a day

505
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 2: of when something occurred. So on the pictures there are

506
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 2: naked pictures of Travis and Jody. So clearly now you

507
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 2: know that Jody and Travis have seen each other and

508
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 2: they were having some fun sexual photo shoot or whatever

509
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: they were doing in Travis's room, and that's all fine

510
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 2: and dandy until the pictures then in timestamps minutes later

511
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: then show pictures accidentally taken where Travis is bleeding. You

512
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 2: see the crime scene, there's a few of those, and

513
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 2: then there's this weird picture of a pant leg that

514
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 2: was clearly accidentally taken, either dropping the camera or hit

515
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 2: the button something like that. And they're able to recover

516
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: all of those, and not only does that put Jody

517
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: there at the crime scene minutes before Travis is scene bloody,

518
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 2: but it also was confirmed to be Jody's pant leg,

519
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: And so now you have a person at the crime

520
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 2: scene who's the only person allegedly there, and that became

521
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: key for figuring out when Travis was killed and sort

522
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 2: of what happened. Then after that, they were able to

523
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 2: collect DNA evidence, and the DNA also matched Jody's at

524
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 2: the crime scene as well, and so those two things

525
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 2: combined really completely changed the investigation.

526
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: Well that's pretty damning evidence, would I ibu to arrest

527
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: her pretty quickly?

528
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: So, yeah, yes, but it did take some time, so

529
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: she was still journaling after they had to wait for

530
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: a bit for the DNA evidence to come back, and

531
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,479
Speaker 2: that took some time, especially when you're thinking, I mean,

532
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 2: we we know DNA nowadays takes some time anyway to

533
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: come back to and this is twenty twenty six, and

534
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: that was two thousand and eight, so they had to

535
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: wait for that to come back, but they definitely knew

536
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: that she was there and they were going to use

537
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: that to question her. Meanwhile, she was still journaling, and

538
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: the journal after the murder is astonishing. It's like, oh

539
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 2: my god, I learned something happened to Travis. Oh my,

540
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 2: this is heartbreaking. I'll never be able to go on.

541
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: Oh Travis, I hear your boys. Who could do this?

542
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: I want the people to get the death penalty. I mean,

543
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: just acting as if she was anyone else learning about

544
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: her friend getting killed, not that she was the killer,

545
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 2: and that when you look at it now and you

546
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: know everything in hindsight, you're like, oh my god. I mean,

547
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: you're trying to give us an alibi, Shore, but you

548
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: were just playing it up too. So once they get

549
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: the DNA back and everything, they then send detectives up

550
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: to Wyrika, California to question her and she denies, denies,

551
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 2: deny it. She's like, I don't know how that's my

552
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: handprint on the wall and the blood I there, that's

553
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: not my pant leg. Why would I ever want to

554
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 2: kill Travis. I could never do such a thing. She

555
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 2: even has this one line in her interrogation video where

556
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: she's like, if I wanted to kill him, I would

557
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 2: use gloves. I have so many of them. It's like, Okay.

558
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 2: Sometimes I just think Jodie was a functioning in her

559
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: own world and really thought that she could convince anybody

560
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 2: of her own version of things. Her own truth. Didn't work.

561
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 2: She was eventually arrested for a first degree murder.

562
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: That interrogation video. I have watched it, and she does

563
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: look very convincing for some of it in terms of

564
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: she's very sad, she's kind of spinning her side of

565
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: the story. And then the only way to describe it

566
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: is it gets to be weird. Can you help articulate

567
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: what I mean by that?

568
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 2: Because would you agree it just gets to be weird? Oh,

569
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: it's extremely strange. Yeah, So Detective Flora, as you know,

570
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: he's the one doing the questioning. But sometimes, and I've

571
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: seen this before in interrogations and investigation techniques, they'll leave

572
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: the suspect by themselves in a room just to see

573
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: what happens, right, you know, will they write anything, how

574
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: will they act? Is there? Do they talk to themselves?

575
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 2: And you know, anything like that, just to see what happens.

576
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: So when he leaves the room, Jodi goes to like

577
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: some other level where she is singing. She's singing multiple

578
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: songs and and like one of them has the lyrics.

579
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: It's like, I I didn't hear you breathe. I wonder

580
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: how you're still here. Like it's just weird lyrics that

581
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: just are creepy with the case itself. And then she's

582
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 2: also singing Christmas carols and then she's laughing to herself,

583
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 2: and then she at one point gets up and does

584
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 2: a headstand on the wall and then gets back and

585
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 2: is singing. It is very odd. It's as if she

586
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,959
Speaker 2: was just her left to her own accord in her

587
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: own living room, not a police interrogation where you're being

588
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: questioned for a brutal murder. It was very bizarre behavior. Yeah, No,

589
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: wonder must be one christ.

590
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: When I first watched that behavior, I thought, oh, that's

591
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: really strange.

592
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think there was definitely some narcissism there, and

593
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: there was also some personality disordered there, and I think

594
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 2: that that might help account for what was going on

595
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: in that interrogation because I think that she would almost

596
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: go into her own world and that's how she would

597
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 2: view the world. So you know, if she could convince

598
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: herself that she was this person and oh, I'm just

599
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: a girl, and you know, I'm just like anybody else

600
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 2: and all that. Yeah, I think that's I think that's

601
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 2: played a huge part here. Definitely unwell to the rest

602
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: of us. I think it just begs the question at

603
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 2: that point in the case whether she knew what she

604
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 2: was doing and was trying to set up that she

605
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 2: was unwell, or if she really felt that was normal

606
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: behavior at the time.

607
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: So police had pretty solid evidence with the camera than

608
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: the day, and I there was also a gun involved

609
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: that they were able to look back to her.

610
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they believe the other I don't believe they ever

611
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: recovered it, but the gun that was used, they were

612
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: able to match the casings though to a gun that

613
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 2: her grandparents had that went missing not long before the murders,

614
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: the same type of gun.

615
00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: Once Judie was behind Bazz, she was quite happy to

616
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: talk to the press, wasn't she.

617
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: She was, Oh, yeah, well tell me about that. She was.

618
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: Usually when someone's being charged with a crime that serious,

619
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 1: they kind of go to ground because it might affect

620
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: their court proceedings.

621
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: But she was quite open with media. Oh yeah, oh yeah,

622
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: I laugh, because like this is where the case really

623
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 2: just starts to heat up in salacious and like almost

624
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: unbelievable things that unfolded next. This is really where it started.

625
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, she gets she gets arrested for her first

626
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 2: degree murder and immediately starts doing jailhouse interviews, which, yes,

627
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: you're right, we don't typically get defendants. I mean, defense

628
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: lawyers never want their defendants to do any yes before

629
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: a trial because yeah, you could compromise the case and

630
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 2: what they say then could be used in the trial

631
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 2: against them. But she's like, no, I'm doing it. So

632
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: she does all these different jailhouse interviews, and at first

633
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 2: she starts with her first version of the case, which

634
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 2: is I wasn't there that day. I wasn't there, It

635
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 2: wasn't me. I was told about it. I'm sad about it,

636
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 2: but no evidence will show that that was me and

637
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,919
Speaker 2: that I killed Travis. That was version number one. Then

638
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 2: she went to a different version, which was, well, I

639
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: was there, but I got away, and unfortunately two masked

640
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 2: intruders killed Travis and it was awful and there are

641
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: two killers out there on the loose, and this was

642
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 2: a horrific thing that happened to him. So then we

643
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 2: had that version of events for a bit, and then

644
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 2: ultimately she changed her story for a third time once

645
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 2: the trial started, and that was I killed him in

646
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 2: self defense. He abused me. I was worried for my

647
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: life and I had to kill him in order to survive.

648
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously that version of events becomes her story.

649
00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 2: Can we just go back to the evidence for a minute.

650
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: Was there any evidence that it could have been self defense?

651
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 2: I mean no, Her defense team needed to look for something, right,

652
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 2: It's very hard to defend against your DNA and photographic

653
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: evidence of you at a crime scene. I mean that's right,

654
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: like nailing the coffin for a defense team. Yeah, so

655
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: they had to come up with something, and I think

656
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: there was a toxic enough back and forth between Jody

657
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: and Travis that they could try to point to that

658
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 2: Travis was just as bad as Jody and had had

659
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: she not acted in that time, you know, it was

660
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 2: either going to be Travis or Jody that died, and

661
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: Jody fought back. The problem with that defense is that

662
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 2: you can't really convince a jury. Ever, even if you

663
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 2: want to say that she was abused, really hard to

664
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 2: convince a jury or anybody with a sound frame of

665
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: mind that self defense was twenty seven stab wounds and

666
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 2: a shot to the head.

667
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: Because it's a very vicious, horrific murder on I guess

668
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: what you're saying is, if someone is fleeing for their

669
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: life and terrified, they're not going to go to that extent,

670
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: Is that what you mean exactly?

671
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you're really fighting for your life

672
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 2: and you have a gun, I think one one gun

673
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 2: shot would do the trick into the head. But even

674
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 2: if you're stabbing somebody in self defense, again, twenty seven

675
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: times was far past what it would take to defend

676
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 2: yourself from him. He would have been subdued well before

677
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 2: that level of overkill. And I think too, you know,

678
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 2: there was they really played this abuse factor up, and

679
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: they had to try to convince the jury, and the

680
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: jury did, you know, consider that they did think about it,

681
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 2: they did look at it, they did talk about it.

682
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 2: There were some people that felt there might have been

683
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 2: some emotional abuse, some verbal abuse, but nobody ever found

684
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 2: any signs of physical abuse. And I think that also too,

685
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 2: played a massive part in what the jury would ultimately decide.

686
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: In your documentary, You do a really damning interview with

687
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: the cellmate of Jody, who Jody basically confessed to in

688
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: terms of murdering Travis.

689
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 2: Yeah.

690
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: Can you describe that chat because she said some wild

691
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: things about the way Jody described that.

692
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: Oh, totally. Yeah. I thought our interview with Donovan was

693
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: really interesting. So Donovan was a cellmate of Jody's at

694
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 2: the time she was in the jail. So that's an

695
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 2: important timeframe because that's when Jody was doing those jailhouse interviews.

696
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 2: It was before the trial ever began, so it wasn't

697
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: like she was in prison after this was before everything

698
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: leading up to the salacious triumph. So yeah, Donovan described

699
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: Jody's being very nice, very sweet. They had both never

700
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 2: been in trouble before, so I think they kind of

701
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,919
Speaker 2: bonded over that. But she described what Jody said as

702
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: Travis being the terminator, that he wouldn't die. And Jody

703
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 2: did tell tell Donovan, you know, he was horrible to

704
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 2: me and this and that, and so Donovan, as her

705
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 2: friend at the time, had a very negative reaction to

706
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 2: Travis as well. But yeah, she described it as he

707
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 2: was a terminator, he wouldn't die, and she always wanted

708
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 2: to be so perfect for the media cameras and TV

709
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 2: and always wanted kind of to be this well known

710
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 2: person out there. And so I think that's how those

711
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 2: two forged a relationships, so much so that Donovan ended

712
00:39:55,080 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 2: up becoming what they called Jody's Twitter manager during the trial,

713
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 2: and Jody would call Donovan on the phone mid trial

714
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: and have her write these things on behalf of her

715
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 2: on Twitter, like about the prosecutor and like calling him

716
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 2: a like, you know, little man syndrome and things like that.

717
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,919
Speaker 2: And so that just also took everything to a whole

718
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 2: new level as well, because not only did she confide

719
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 2: in Donovan about you know, a he wouldn't die and

720
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 2: he was this and that, but then she also was

721
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 2: having Donovan play this role of basically aiding in this trial,

722
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 2: becoming even more sallacious with what she was wanting to

723
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: put out there to the public.

724
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the trial, because it's been described as

725
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: a live soap opera or the super Bowl of court

726
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: m in terms of media attention, it was insane, insane and.

727
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 2: There are people everywhere.

728
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: Can you paint that picture for us, because if people

729
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: haven't seen the footage, there are hundreds of people waiting

730
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: outside colt like they going to a concert.

731
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 2: Oh totally. I've really never seen anything like it. The

732
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: only thing I can really compare it to recently in

733
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 2: recent times is the Karen Reid trial outside of Massachusetts,

734
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: where there were so many people that were out there

735
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: supporting her, kind of lining the streets for her. And

736
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 2: that's pretty rare too. Even with high profile cases now,

737
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 2: there's typically not like groves of people outside, you know,

738
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 2: like that's not where everything is. But with this, yeah,

739
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 2: oh my gosh. Looking at the footage, so you know,

740
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: I was in high school at the time this happened,

741
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 2: and I'd heard of it, but I wasn't paying attention

742
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 2: like like I would be now as a true crime journalist.

743
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 2: Going through that footage is some of the more shocking

744
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 2: things I've seen in this career. Yes, there were so

745
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 2: First off, there were cable news shows were really popular

746
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: at the time, Nancy Grace HLN things like that. So

747
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 2: those cable shows that would run, you know, a lot

748
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 2: of hours in the day. We're setting up nearby with

749
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 2: well what was like a concert like stages, bleachers, big

750
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: lights that you would see if there was like a

751
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: singer spotlights, all that they were getting ready for full

752
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 2: show productions because there was so much interest in the case.

753
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 2: So you had that side of things. So you had

754
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 2: all this media there and they were lined up everywhere

755
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 2: outside the courthouse, the streets, across the street, the courtyard nearby,

756
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 2: and then you just had all these people who wanted

757
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 2: to be there for history and watch this unfold. And

758
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: I guess the way that I would describe that is

759
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 2: you don't have it now where you know there's a

760
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 2: live stream options all the time and you could just

761
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 2: do that. You had to either watch on TV or

762
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: you were there in person, I guess. And so yeah,

763
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 2: there was people running all over and waiting in this

764
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 2: lottery line to get into the courtroom. Like people really

765
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 2: viewed this as like a top tier exclusive show and

766
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: they all wanted to be part of the action. I've

767
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,919
Speaker 2: never really seen anything like it, And there were people

768
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 2: who were like, oh my gosh, just to be here

769
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 2: and to even be chosen to go into this lottery,

770
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 2: even to go through security, that would have been enough

771
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 2: for me. I've just not seen anything. You would have

772
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 2: thought you were talking to people who had just gotten

773
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 2: chosen to be front row at a Taylor Swift concert.

774
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 2: I was unreal, and it only got bigger and bigger

775
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 2: and crazier and crazier as this went on, especially eventually

776
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 2: when Jody took the stand herself, because typically a defendant

777
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: doesn't take the stand, And so then you really had

778
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: people coming. I mean they wanted to watch what was

779
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: going on, and what would happen to is if they

780
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: weren't chosen to be part of the audience. This group

781
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 2: of people who had come from wherever would then go

782
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 2: to a nearby restaurant watch this trial live on HLN

783
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: or whatever else on the TV, and talk about it

784
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: and have like a lunch gathering to hang out and

785
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: be part of it that way. It was so crazy.

786
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: I can't help but think if Travis's found as you

787
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: just got that because at the end of the day,

788
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: like this is something horrific that has happened to someone

789
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: they love, and they're arriving at a courtroom to see

790
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 1: the person that they think killed their loved one see justice,

791
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: and they've got groupies and people kind of frothing to

792
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: hear the latest information.

793
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 2: That must have been really bloody hard. I think it

794
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 2: was almost a catch twenty two for them. Yeah, here

795
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 2: they are showing up to court, and I mean not

796
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 2: just showing up for a couple of weeks. This trial

797
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 2: went on for months and months and then continued on

798
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 2: for years after that in the penalty phase. So this

799
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 2: was agonizing having to go in and to see all

800
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 2: this evidence and be a part of it. Yeah. So

801
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: then this wasn't a show, this was real life. And

802
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 2: so on one hand you had them dealing with that. However,

803
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: there was something to it where they felt that Travis

804
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 2: had such a magnetic personality that there were people out

805
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 2: there supporting him. I mean, they were so anti Jody.

806
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: They were Yeah, they were in it for the salacious details,

807
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 2: but they were anti Jody. And so his friends and

808
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,479
Speaker 2: family were at least able to look at that and say, wow,

809
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 2: look at all this support for Travis. Look at all

810
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: of these people. That's true justice for Travis. And I

811
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 2: think at least among something that was so incredibly uncomfortable

812
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: to be part of that, they could at least see

813
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 2: the fact that these people all wanted the same thing

814
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: that they wanted, which was justice for their brother.

815
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: After the break, we hear exactly what Jodi said when

816
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: she took the stand to speak at her trial.

817
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 2: Did you kill Travis Alexander on June fourth in two

818
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,439
Speaker 2: thousand and eight, Yes, we did.

819
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: Why The simple answer is that he attacked me and

820
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: I defended meself. You mentioned that Jody took the stand,

821
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: which a lot of defendants don't do. They're often advised

822
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: not to do. Jody was on the stand for eighteen days.

823
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: What did she talk about? What is the biggest takeaway

824
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: from her being on that stand?

825
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 2: What didn't she talk about? Really? I think ends up

826
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: being the question. So that's still to this day longest

827
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 2: longest the defendants ever taken the stand in their own

828
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 2: trial in US history. That is well, pretty crazy when

829
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 2: you think about how long ago that was to now, Yeah,

830
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 2: you know it's yes. Typically defendants do not take the stand,

831
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 2: and typically defense attorneys don't want them to take the stand,

832
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 2: right because now they could say anything and that could

833
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 2: completely compromise the case. But in this specific case, if

834
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 2: they wanted the jury to believe that Jody suffered from abuse,

835
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 2: the most powerful person to try to convince them of

836
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 2: that was going to be Jody herself. And they knew it.

837
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 2: It was like a hail Mary, Like, if we're going

838
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: to have any shot at this at all throw her

839
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 2: on the stand. So you know, she talked about her

840
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: past relationships and how it was with Travis and how

841
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 2: she was sad and this and that, and she described

842
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 2: the murder. But where it really got fiery was when

843
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: the prosecutor Won Martinez, who was fiery in and of himself,

844
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 2: got up there and cross examined her, I mean, and

845
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 2: he had her acting out how she you know, how

846
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 2: Travis was a linebacker attacking her and she had to

847
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 2: get away, and he had her acted out in court,

848
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 2: and you know, he would really question her on her

849
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 2: lapses in memory that she seemingly had according to her

850
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 2: or you know, you remember these things, but you can't

851
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 2: remember stabbing him, you can't remember shooting him, you can't

852
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: remember driving away from the scene. And so he was

853
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: really trying to poke holes in the fact that she

854
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 2: selectively was choosing what to remember, what not to remember,

855
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 2: what she claimed she did, what she claimed she didn't.

856
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 2: And that where people, I mean people were tuning in

857
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 2: to see the back and forth between Jody and Juan Martinez.

858
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 2: Do you think evidence that she gave helped her? Kis

859
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 2: was she convincing? Now? You know she might have been

860
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: convincing if she had been on the stand for less days.

861
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 2: But I think the longer you're up there, the almost

862
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 2: more comical and more TV soap opera y it got

863
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 2: because it was you can't do yourself a lot of

864
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 2: favors when you're going over and over on all this

865
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 2: and then ultimately ends up kind of becoming more about

866
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: the showdown between her and Wan bickering with each other

867
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 2: and trying to one up the other, rather than the

868
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 2: actual trial itself and the actual issue itself, which for

869
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 2: Jody was, Hey, I was abused and I was defending myself.

870
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 2: So no, I don't think that it helped. I think

871
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,240
Speaker 2: that they should have taken her off the stand far sooner,

872
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,439
Speaker 2: and that was probably an error on the defense's part,

873
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 2: but I think they thought, look, if anybody's to convince

874
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 2: the jury of anything emotional like abuse, it was going

875
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 2: to have to come from Jody herself.

876
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:11,800
Speaker 1: I ask that because the jury deliberated for a long time.

877
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: They asked a lot of questions from the judge, so

878
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 1: it wasn't a clean cut decision for them. It took

879
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: them a long time.

880
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 2: Really, Yes, yeah, you're right, it did, and I don't

881
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 2: think they nobody, Nobody seemed confused on whether or not

882
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 2: she did it. I think that was obvious, and even

883
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 2: the defense, I mean even in their opening statements they said, look,

884
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 2: there's no doubt Jody did this. So that was never

885
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 2: really the issue. It was more so the intent and

886
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 2: what happened that day, and they would need to decide

887
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 2: whether they were going to you know, convict on a

888
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 2: first degree murder charge, were they going to lessen it

889
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 2: to second degree, were they going to lessen it to manslaughter.

890
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 2: That's really what they had to figure out. And I

891
00:49:55,320 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 2: think she was successful and at least letting some reasonable

892
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: doubt in some of the jurors minds that there may

893
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 2: have been abuse, at least verbal abuse based on the

894
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 2: toxicity of the relationship. And that's what I mean. At

895
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 2: the end of the day, that is what the defense

896
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 2: is trying to do. Can you give any sort of

897
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: reasonable doubt to the prosecution story? And I think that

898
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,439
Speaker 2: that was what they were going for. So there were

899
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 2: some jurors who were considering that, and yes, they asked

900
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: a lot of questions of the judge, which is also

901
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 2: pretty rare. Usually those are more clarifying questions if anything

902
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: like can we use this for that or that for this?

903
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 2: And almost more protocol based, but they asked like a

904
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 2: hundred questions and that was interesting too, and so yeah,

905
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 2: so the judge would read them to Jody would answer,

906
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 2: and then they would listen from there, and I think

907
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 2: they wanted Jody to know that they were like, why

908
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 2: should we believe your story? Now you've lied about X,

909
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 2: Y and Z. That's been proven in the trial, so

910
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 2: why should we believe you now? Questions along those lines.

911
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,800
Speaker 2: But ultimately, yeah, they described the two jurors we interviewed

912
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: described putting all these post its all around the room

913
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 2: and really getting in there in the deliberation room to say, Okay,

914
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 2: here's what evidence we have, here's what we think. And yes,

915
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 2: ultimately I think they wanted to make sure that they

916
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 2: were making the right decision. They also knew by convicting

917
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: her a first degree murder and finding her guilty of that,

918
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 2: that now they were going to have to figure out

919
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 2: if this was a death penalty case or not, if

920
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 2: she would be executed or not. And I think all

921
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 2: of them when they were deliberating, even in that the

922
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 2: guilty phase, knew what was on the line with this case. Overall,

923
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: and that was death or not.

924
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, which is something that is foreign to us

925
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: here in Australia, we don't have the death pulty. We

926
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 1: haven't for many, many decades. So it is you know,

927
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: quite shocking to hear that this is what's next in

928
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: this case. She is found guilty of Moto one and

929
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: then they do need to deliberate and do it basically

930
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,280
Speaker 1: a whole new trial in sentencing to work out whether

931
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: she's going to die for it.

932
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 2: Can you take us through that phase because it was.

933
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 1: Basically like a mini trial in terms of impact statements

934
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: from both sides, her pleading her case as to why

935
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: she should get life and not the death penalty. Yeah,

936
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: and then the jury, the same jury has to decide that, correct.

937
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I didn't even think about that. In Australia,

938
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 2: this part of it probably never happens. So, yeah, here,

939
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 2: when you are found guilty of first degree murder and

940
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 2: it's a capital case and not every first degree murder

941
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 2: case is a capital case. In this specific case and

942
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 2: with death penalty cases, the miracle, the County attorney's office

943
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 2: must give a notice of intent to seek the death

944
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: penalty if they feel that that's just and if they

945
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 2: want to go forward with that, yeah, So that was

946
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 2: start first and they went forward with that. So we

947
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 2: knew going in to this trial that this was a

948
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 2: death penalty case. So once she's found guilty, then yes,

949
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:08,720
Speaker 2: it's like a second mini trial, just like you said.

950
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 2: And the reason for that is because the first burden

951
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 2: of proof that they had in the first one was

952
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 2: whether she did it or not. But now the question

953
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 2: at hand is does she deserve to die or not?

954
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 2: And there's a lot more at stick with that when

955
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 2: you're talking about a human life in that regard, And

956
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 2: so the burden of proof then is on the prosecution

957
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 2: to prove to the jury that she should deserve to

958
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,839
Speaker 2: die based on all of these what would be aggravating

959
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,760
Speaker 2: factors in the case. And the penalty phase also deals

960
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 2: with the more emotions of who somebody is, the character

961
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 2: of somebody, and that's where things can get a lot

962
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,800
Speaker 2: more emotional on our end here in the United States.

963
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 2: Because you have family members who will give victim impact statements,

964
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,399
Speaker 2: the defendant can also talk more freely, so right, Jodi

965
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 2: has to answer the questions at hand, and in the

966
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 2: guilty phase of this, when she's on the stand, but

967
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 2: she also has an ability in the sentencing phase to

968
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 2: kind of give her impact statement as well. And so

969
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 2: Travis's family felt that she should die, and that was

970
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 2: based off of the set of legalities here in Arizona

971
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 2: of you know, what meets the ex the burden of

972
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: a death penalty proof or death penalty case, and legally

973
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 2: based off of the evidence at hand, it fit a

974
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 2: lot of those parameters. So those include like was the

975
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 2: crime unusually cruel and depraved? Yes, yeah, but some of

976
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 2: them it didn't hit you know. Oftentimes it might be

977
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 2: like was there multiple victims in this case? No, So

978
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 2: they have to look at those set of factors and

979
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 2: each side has to prove why or why not somebody

980
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 2: should you know, be executed or have their life spared

981
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,359
Speaker 2: in life in prison. There was no other option other

982
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 2: than death or life in prison for a first degree

983
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 2: murder conviction here in Arizona, and so there was a

984
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 2: lot more so to speak on the line for the

985
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 2: jurors when looking at this case and deciding what they

986
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 2: were going to have to do. And they deliberate again

987
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 2: just like they do in that first phase, to decide

988
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 2: whether or not it's going to be death.

989
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 1: Well, it ended up taking them two goes. The first

990
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: time wasn't unanimous and the second time it also wasn't unanimous,

991
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:33,479
Speaker 1: but eleven to one, and she ended up getting life

992
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: in prison. Correct, What does life in prison look like

993
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 1: in Arizona? Is that your natural life?

994
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 2: Is that? Like? How many years is that? What does

995
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:45,240
Speaker 2: that look like? So she got life in prison without

996
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 2: the possibility of parole, So that would be in this

997
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 2: case until the end of her life unless she wins

998
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 2: something on appeal. So as far as her case goes now,

999
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 2: she is appealing one appeal. She's in the middle of

1000
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 2: another appeal. She has been writing in her blog recently

1001
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 2: in the past week about how she isn't happy with

1002
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:11,959
Speaker 2: attorneys and she's looking for a new council and she's

1003
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 2: going to seek a habeas case as well. And to

1004
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 2: kind of put that in perspective, explain what that means

1005
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 2: in Arizona. When you get a life in prison sentence

1006
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 2: and you are appealing, that's called post conviction relief or PCR,

1007
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,479
Speaker 2: and typically you'll exhaust as many appeals as you can

1008
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: if you are trying to get out or trying to

1009
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 2: change things. And if that doesn't work, and all of

1010
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 2: those fail, then you can move on to what could

1011
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 2: be a habeas case. People most recently have probably heard

1012
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 2: that with the Menendez brothers, who claimed that there was

1013
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 2: new evidence and so if there was a habeas case,

1014
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,919
Speaker 2: they would request a new trial. In this case, she's

1015
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 2: using the habeas to say that evidence was destroyed or

1016
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 2: gotten rid of by the prosecutor and the lead detective,

1017
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 2: her constitutional rights were violated through the trial. Therefore, because

1018
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,240
Speaker 2: of this, she should get be granted a new trial.

1019
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 2: And she's going to point to the fact that both

1020
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 2: the prosecutor and the defense attorney in this case were

1021
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 2: both disbarred after this trial over things that happened during

1022
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 2: or after the trial that related to this case. So

1023
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 2: that's what she's working on from a legal front. From

1024
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 2: a day to day front, we know what she's doing

1025
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 2: because she runs a substack blog called just Jodie where

1026
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 2: she's detailing her life and her thoughts and her feelings

1027
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 2: and all of that. And honestly, I'm surprised she has

1028
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 2: as much access to things as she does as far

1029
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 2: as the blog goes when she is posting it. She

1030
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 2: doesn't have access to the actual site of substack but

1031
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 2: she can email people back and forth, which is how

1032
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 2: she was able to email me, and that's through a

1033
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 2: secure prison email chain email program, and she sends that

1034
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 2: to somebody in the outside who then posts the blog.

1035
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 2: But she writes about doing a lot. I mean, she

1036
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 2: has access to a lot of baking ingredients and utensils

1037
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 2: and things. She's baking elaborate desserts. She's researching, she says,

1038
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 2: she listens to podcasts. She talks great in great detail

1039
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 2: about how she's using AI and chat GPT to do

1040
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 2: certain things. She reads a lot. She has worked in

1041
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 2: the library for many years in there, so she reads

1042
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 2: a lot. I mean she's definitely paying attention to what

1043
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,919
Speaker 2: is happening in the outside world and seems to have

1044
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 2: a fair amount of access to research things in prison.

1045
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 2: A lot of them have a tablet and that's how

1046
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 2: they're able to get online in some form or fashion

1047
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 2: when it's allowed. She has a pet pigeon named April

1048
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 2: that she writes about. I don't know if she not sure.

1049
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 2: It's just like a bird that exists in there, and

1050
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 2: she calls it hers, But she writes about that, so

1051
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 2: I mean she's definitely doing things in prison. I know,

1052
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 2: she's led some singing competition in there. She's done some yeah,

1053
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 2: some singing. She even did singing competitions in the jail

1054
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 2: before she was went to trial. She did like something

1055
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 2: called inmate idol where they like sang for judges like

1056
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 2: American Idol. Very very odd, but yeah, she still sings.

1057
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's the you know, we know about what

1058
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 2: her life is like kind of from a day to

1059
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 2: day because she's writing about it. She's putting it out

1060
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 2: there for people who want to still follow her life.

1061
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 2: I mean, she did have a fair amount of fans

1062
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 2: to who either don't think she deserved this, don't think

1063
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 2: she did, or still want to follow her because they

1064
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I think she's pretty and alluring and they, Yeah,

1065
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 2: a free Jody is a thing. So that's what we

1066
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 2: know kind of about where she stands in terms of

1067
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 2: what her personal life is like in prison, and then

1068
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 2: also where her legal life is in prison too.

1069
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: I do want to back up a second, because there

1070
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 1: was a particular moment that I found quite shocking and

1071
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 1: probably everyone would find quite shocking, was that after that

1072
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 1: sentence came down and she was given life in prison,

1073
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: she said something to Travis's family who were there. The

1074
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: family and friends were there to hear what would happen

1075
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 1: to her? What did she say to them?

1076
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, they relayed that she looked at them after the

1077
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 2: sentence and said he was alive when I slid his throat. Awful, awful, shocking, hurtful, spiteful. Yeah,

1078
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 2: I think I think that was said with some intent.

1079
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 2: And that's why people are so frustrated with these appeals

1080
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:33,439
Speaker 2: and you know, her pointing to even trying to get

1081
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 2: a habeas case out of this, because it's hard for

1082
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 2: people to understand that she could, you know, even potentially

1083
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 2: get a reduced sentence or anything, or try to point

1084
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 2: to a new trial solely based on the trial itself

1085
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 2: protocols and what happened and what you know, what other

1086
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 2: attorneys did. Given the fact that she admitted she killed

1087
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 2: him and then she said something like that, I mean,

1088
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 2: no one looks at that comment and says, oh, yeah,

1089
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 2: that's somebody that we should review it and see if

1090
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 2: everything went as planned. That's an evil comment. It's an

1091
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 2: evil person, it's an evil act. And there's not one

1092
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 2: person that looks at that and says, oh, yeah, let's

1093
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,479
Speaker 2: relok at that case. Make sure everything went according because

1094
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 2: maybe she should be out from behind bars.

1095
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 1: That comment was obviously offreco though, So do you think

1096
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: she has a chance with these appeals?

1097
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 2: So I interviewed an attorney unrelated to the case, at

1098
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 2: least the trial portion of it, about this, because I

1099
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 2: asked the same thing. I mean, Jody can say what

1100
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 2: she wants from behind bars and blog. Yeah, but is

1101
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 2: any of it really legit? And is there a chance?

1102
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 2: There's always technically a chance. Yes. It doesn't help that

1103
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 2: the attorneys were disbarred over different things. Kirk Nurmi, her

1104
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 2: defense attorney, wrote a tell all book about him and

1105
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 2: his relationship and things that were said in client confidentiality,

1106
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 2: so that violates the attorney client privilege. So that's why

1107
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 2: he was disbarred. One Martinez had a slew of different issues.

1108
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 2: He you know, reportedly committed prosecutorial misconduct by feeding a

1109
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 2: blogger at the time of the trial information and then

1110
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 2: allegedly having a relationship or some sort of sexual relationship

1111
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 2: with that blogger. He also reportedly talked to a dismiss

1112
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 2: duror on the case, and he ultimately agreed to be

1113
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 2: disbarred over everything. So, yeah, I mean, does she have

1114
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 2: a chance on that front specifically, maybe, But the reality

1115
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:41,919
Speaker 2: is it's really hard to prove intent that the detective

1116
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 2: and the prosecutor would have intentionally gotten rid of damning

1117
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 2: evidence that would have saved her X, Y, and Z.

1118
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:53,440
Speaker 2: And it's hard to prove that what happened during the

1119
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 2: trial and right after would have changed the outcome of

1120
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 2: her confession. So the likelihood of her given what happened,

1121
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 2: right given how this went, given that she admitted to

1122
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 2: killing him, yeah, the likelihood of her getting out slimmed

1123
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 2: to none. But you never know, And that specific aspect

1124
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 2: of you just don't know is what has people very

1125
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 2: concerned that there could be a chance, high chance, no chance.

1126
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, you snuck in there that you had contact

1127
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 1: with her, You did try and get an interview with her?

1128
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 2: How did that go? I did so. I had actually

1129
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 2: emailed her before too, even before I pursued the documentary.

1130
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 2: I think I knew we had a couple of high

1131
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 2: profile inmates here, and as a true crime journalist and reporter,

1132
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:51,800
Speaker 2: I always want to hear all sides of the story,

1133
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 2: and especially given now that true crime is such a

1134
01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 2: genre that interests so many people, I think doesn't really

1135
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 2: matter how old cases, people want to hear how people

1136
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 2: involved in the case feel now. And there is a fascination,

1137
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:08,880
Speaker 2: whether people like it or not, with hearing what a

1138
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 2: defendant a killer has to say about a case. And

1139
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 2: I truly believe too, that we can learn from these

1140
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 2: people to you know, things, to look for certain personality traits,

1141
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 2: certain beliefs that we then can you know, learn from

1142
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 2: and hopefully study so that we can prevent these things

1143
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 2: from happening in the future. The only way we can

1144
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 2: learn that is to actually ask them their side too.

1145
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 2: So I knew I wanted to interview her for this

1146
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 2: if I was going to do a whole documentary about

1147
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 2: her in our psychology, of course I wanted to talk

1148
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 2: to Jody, and of course I wanted to be there

1149
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,959
Speaker 2: with her, either in person or over the phone. Now

1150
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 2: that's part of this too. I knew that interviewing Jody

1151
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 2: was going to be a bit of a different kind

1152
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:54,040
Speaker 2: of interview if I even could hear. In Arizona, will

1153
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 2: while we can do jailhouse interviews depending on who's heading

1154
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:03,200
Speaker 2: up the jail and the prison, interviews here are not

1155
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 2: allowed on camera in person, and they typically don't even

1156
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 2: grant video visits, though that's a little different now because

1157
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 2: these inmates have these tablets, they can just reach out

1158
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 2: to people. So I knew my only options were going

1159
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:18,520
Speaker 2: to be either visit Jody in person in the prison

1160
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 2: like a visitation and take notes, no recording, no camera,

1161
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:24,919
Speaker 2: no audio, nothing, And that would have been my number

1162
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 2: one choice, even though I couldn't record it. I wanted

1163
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 2: to get, you know, in front of her in person,

1164
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:30,960
Speaker 2: I could at least relay what I had learned and

1165
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,520
Speaker 2: what I had noticed and picked up. But the other

1166
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 2: option would have been a phone interview, and that was

1167
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 2: my other goal. And she didn't respond for a while,

1168
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:41,080
Speaker 2: and I knew I had reached out to her a

1169
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 2: defense team that's conducting the appeal now to first go

1170
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 2: through that channel, right, like I was going to ask them.

1171
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 2: I wanted to do everything right, and they were very like, no, no, no,

1172
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 2: she will not be doing anything. We will not be

1173
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:55,440
Speaker 2: doing anything. We have no comment, don't contact her, you know,

1174
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 2: shut it down. Basically, they didn't want to us even

1175
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:01,680
Speaker 2: doing the documentary. Obviously that's not their choice. But I

1176
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 2: thought I was going to, you know, i'd message her

1177
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 2: personally too and just see and she did eventually email

1178
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:10,919
Speaker 2: me back and said, you know, was very friendly and said, Hi,

1179
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 2: I'm so so glad you reached out. I'm so sorry

1180
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 2: I didn't respond sooner. You know, my I would love

1181
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 2: to tell you about my life in Perryville Prison and

1182
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 2: you know, about everything here, but my attorneys won't allow me.

1183
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 2: They're protecting me as attorneys do. I'm so sorry. And

1184
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 2: I told her I had read her blog, and she

1185
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 2: was like, thank you so much for subscribing to my blog.

1186
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:35,440
Speaker 2: I think it's a great place to get exclusive content

1187
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 2: about my life that no one else can get. I

1188
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 2: appreciate you reading. You know, if you have any questions

1189
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 2: or want me to write about anything, let me know

1190
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,920
Speaker 2: and I'll consider those topics in the future, and if

1191
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 2: anything changes with my attorneys, I'll let you know. Thanks

1192
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 2: again for reaching out. Take care. Jody so very courteous. Oh,

1193
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 2: she was very polite, very friendly. Yeah. I ended up

1194
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:03,960
Speaker 2: reding back and I asked her a few different things.

1195
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 2: I actually I had a couple questions in mind already,

1196
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 2: just knowing how she operates, knowing that she wasn't probably

1197
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 2: going to address the case itself. So I came up

1198
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:19,000
Speaker 2: with some questions and then I also asked AI, what

1199
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:22,920
Speaker 2: would be the best questions to ask a narcissist? And

1200
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:26,360
Speaker 2: I ended up, Yeah, I ended up emailing her back

1201
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 2: some topics like, if you could go back and redo

1202
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 2: something in your life, what would it be? What are

1203
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 2: your greatest accomplishments in life? And on the other side

1204
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 2: of that, what do you feel like have been your

1205
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 2: biggest downfalls or your biggest failures? What would be advice

1206
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 2: to yourself now? You know? Things like that, And to

1207
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:46,920
Speaker 2: this day, she still has not addressed She did not

1208
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 2: email me back, and she still has not addressed my

1209
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 2: specific questions in her blog, but she's writing more. I've

1210
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 2: already there's already been a couple entries just even in

1211
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:59,400
Speaker 2: the new year. So I'm hopeful that at some point

1212
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 2: you might hear answers to those questions. And I also

1213
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 2: I really recently just emailed her because she's been complaining

1214
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 2: about her attorneys and wanting new councils. So I thought, well,

1215
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 2: if she fires them or if they leave the case,

1216
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 2: maybe there's an in between time there, or she's going

1217
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 2: to want to say something yeah to me, You just

1218
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 2: never know. You never know. But she likes attention and

1219
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:22,599
Speaker 2: she likes sharing her life, so I'm hopeful maybe still

1220
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 2: down the road. Yeah.

1221
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 1: With your documentary, you aimed to look at the psychology.

1222
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 2: That was what you were looking at with Jody. What

1223
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 2: did you conclude we touched on earlier.

1224
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:38,360
Speaker 1: You know, there's a bit of there's a few different

1225
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: personality disorders potentially in there. But looking back at it

1226
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:46,679
Speaker 1: all through a twenty six lens, what did you conclude

1227
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 1: about the psychology of Jody and what she did.

1228
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think from the twenty twenty six lens, clearly

1229
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 2: there's a personality disorder there, and she could not handle rejection,

1230
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 2: and she could not handle somebody, a man that she wanted,

1231
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 2: choosing somebody over her. And I think that that was

1232
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:14,759
Speaker 2: so dangerous that she could not control herself and thought, well,

1233
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 2: I'm going to be the last person he was with,

1234
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna I'm gonna take action here. You know,

1235
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 2: did she go to his house with the intent to

1236
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 2: fully kill him like she did in this way? I

1237
01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:30,280
Speaker 2: will never know. I don't think she'll ever talk about that.

1238
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:36,200
Speaker 2: But she has such a strong personality disorder and a

1239
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 2: strong sense of narcissism that I think she convinced herself

1240
01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 2: that this was the best plan, and that he will

1241
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 2: never be with somebody else, and if he's going to

1242
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 2: reject me, then I'll be the last person he's going

1243
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 2: to be with. And I think that that is the

1244
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:58,080
Speaker 2: kind of person that she is. I think she feels

1245
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:03,200
Speaker 2: that she can can convince anybody of her beliefs and

1246
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 2: that they'll believe her. And she writes in this very

1247
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:11,960
Speaker 2: specific tone, this very specific style that's a bit like

1248
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 2: holier than Thou, kind of picking apart holes at everybody else,

1249
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:22,720
Speaker 2: and it very much still resonates that in a lot

1250
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:25,280
Speaker 2: of instances in her life, even now that she is

1251
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 2: really the victim. And I don't think she's capable because

1252
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 2: of her personality disorder of seeing the true reality of

1253
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:39,559
Speaker 2: the situation. And that makes her a really, really scary

1254
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 2: person in a different way than people you know might

1255
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:46,640
Speaker 2: think scary. You think scary, you think big, yeah, you know,

1256
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 2: you'd attack. But she's incredibly smart, she's incredibly manipulative and

1257
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:57,639
Speaker 2: highly highly intelligent, but couldn't get out of her own

1258
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 2: way on a personality side of things. And I think

1259
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 2: that that's ultimately where this all all lies.

1260
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 1: I wanted to end with Travis's loved ones his friends

1261
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:11,120
Speaker 1: and family. Obviously with such a big case, with her

1262
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:13,719
Speaker 1: name being at the center of it all, and she's

1263
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:16,840
Speaker 1: still getting attention with this blog. Have they been able

1264
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 1: to move on in the years since the sentence and

1265
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 1: since everything died down a little bit.

1266
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's a kind of a two

1267
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 2: pronged answer. You know, obviously, when we reach out, I mean,

1268
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:33,680
Speaker 2: and I'm keenly aware of this too as a journalist,

1269
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 2: right when you reach out to family and friends who

1270
01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:39,920
Speaker 2: are very affected by a horrific crime, you know that

1271
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 2: reaching out to them could trigger those emotions for them,

1272
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 2: could be a bit upsetting. To counteract that, though a

1273
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:54,599
Speaker 2: lot of times victims family and friends want to share

1274
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:57,200
Speaker 2: more about their loved one and it's almost cathartic and

1275
01:11:57,280 --> 01:12:00,519
Speaker 2: healing for them to know that their love one is

1276
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:04,479
Speaker 2: not forgotten. I think that exists here. There's been some

1277
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:08,080
Speaker 2: family dynamics within the Alexander's where some of them would

1278
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:10,040
Speaker 2: like to do more interviews and some of them would not,

1279
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:12,920
Speaker 2: and that's caused some family strife for sure. So I

1280
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:15,880
Speaker 2: think while while it's hard to see these things happen,

1281
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:19,880
Speaker 2: and I mean everybody is pissed about the blog, no

1282
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:23,599
Speaker 2: doubt and the friends know that she had a blog

1283
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:26,719
Speaker 2: until we told him, so, not that it's a secret,

1284
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,880
Speaker 2: but just some didn't know that, So I think that's

1285
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 2: really upsetting. For sure, there is definitely, you know, to

1286
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 2: be able to remember Travis and to share again the

1287
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:43,000
Speaker 2: kind of boisterous person infectious, smile, laughter personality person he

1288
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 2: was that brings them joy still and remembering him. But

1289
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 2: I think there's been a lot of sadness with all

1290
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:53,599
Speaker 2: of them growing up and going through the life phases

1291
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:57,519
Speaker 2: of getting married and having kids and knowing that Travis

1292
01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:00,800
Speaker 2: didn't get that opportunity. That is heartbreaking and they now

1293
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 2: see it as they go through the different phases in life.

1294
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:06,120
Speaker 2: But I do think they've been able to move forward

1295
01:13:06,479 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 2: some for sure, and I think people got a lot

1296
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:12,439
Speaker 2: of therapy. They knew they had to move on and

1297
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 2: that Travis would want them to live their lives big.

1298
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:18,680
Speaker 2: I mean, he lived his life big, and they know

1299
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:20,600
Speaker 2: that Travis would want them to do the same. But

1300
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 2: is there lasting impacts in all of their lives. Yeah,

1301
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:31,439
Speaker 2: there's trauma there that has affected many aspects of their lives,

1302
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:33,960
Speaker 2: both the family and the friends, and I don't think

1303
01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:36,240
Speaker 2: that ever goes away, but I think that there's a

1304
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:39,720
Speaker 2: part that they want to live in Travis's honor, the

1305
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 2: way that he would have lived his life, and I

1306
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:45,439
Speaker 2: think that that's something that they try to live for

1307
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 2: every day.

1308
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:54,599
Speaker 1: Thank you to Brianna for helping us to tell this story.

1309
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:57,120
Speaker 1: You can find a link to the True Crime Arizona

1310
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 1: documentary Absist, hosted by Brianna at the link in our

1311
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:01,639
Speaker 1: show notes.

1312
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,680
Speaker 2: If you want to see images.

1313
01:14:03,360 --> 01:14:06,320
Speaker 1: Related to this story, head over to our Instagram page

1314
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:10,639
Speaker 1: at True Crime Conversations for in depth case explainers. Follow

1315
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:14,040
Speaker 1: us on TikTok under the same name. True Crime Conversations

1316
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:17,200
Speaker 1: is hosted by me Jemma Bath. Our senior producer is

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01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 1: Tarlie Blackman, the group executive producer is Alaria Brophy, and

1318
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:24,559
Speaker 1: there's been audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much

1319
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 1: for listening. I'll be back next week with another True

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01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 1: Crime Conversation.

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01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:36,800
Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:38,920
Speaker 2: waters that this podcast was recorded on