Speaker 1: A warning before we start. This episode does contain mentions
Speaker 1: of suicide. I'm Jemma Bass and this is True Crime Conversations.
Speaker 1: A few weeks ago we brought you the case of
Speaker 1: the missing nan Up four. We're dropping back into your
Speaker 1: ears with an important and shocking update on the case. First,
Speaker 1: some context. As you heard in our episode, the Australian
Speaker 1: family cult that vanished overnight, Chantal McDougall, Simon Cadwell, their
Speaker 1: daughter Leela, and friend and housemate Tony vanished from Nanup,
Speaker 1: a small wa town, in two thousand and seven. Simon
Speaker 1: was known as somewhat of a cult leader who believed
Speaker 1: in a doomsday and moving to a higher plane once
Speaker 1: you die. He had followers online, but those under his
Speaker 1: roof were most under his control. When the four disappeared,
Speaker 1: they left a note on their front door saying they'd
Speaker 1: moved to Brazil. However, no trace of that happening was found.
Speaker 1: Their passports weren't used to leave the country. In twenty
Speaker 1: eight an inquest heard about a family suicide pact Simon
Speaker 1: had been discussing online, suggesting another dark answer as to
Speaker 1: potentially what could have happened to the group. Medical records
Speaker 1: from before they disappeared. Showed that Shantell, Tony and Simon
Speaker 1: obtained strong sedatives and anti anxiety medications. Simon was also
Speaker 1: prescribed an antipsychotic and opioids, which can be fatal when
Speaker 1: combined with sedatives. The inquest also revealed that Simon was
Speaker 1: living under a false identity. He grew up in the
Speaker 1: UK and his real name was Gary Felton. Ultimately, the
Speaker 1: coroner ruled that he couldn't find beyond reasonable doubt that
Speaker 1: any of the nun up four were dead or alive.
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty six, ABC journalist Dominique Bayons has been
Speaker 1: reinvestigating this case, and last time we had her on,
Speaker 1: she hinted that she was sitting on some pretty huge
Speaker 1: news in this case. She's ready to tell us about
Speaker 1: it with an update on the Missing one up four.
Speaker 1: Dom thanks for joining us back on true crime conversations.
Speaker 1: I want to pick up our chat with two very
Speaker 1: dogged police officers, retired detectives. Tell me about Barry and
Speaker 1: Peter and how they intersect with this story.
Speaker 2: Well, they've really been part of it since the very beginning,
Speaker 2: So to introduce them. Barry McIntosh, he is a retired
Speaker 2: Victorian detective. He had over thirty five years experience in
Speaker 2: the Victorian Police Force. He's also the uncle of Chantelle McDougall,
Speaker 2: one of the I guess we call them the nan
Speaker 2: Up four, one of the people who disappeared from nan
Speaker 2: Up in two thousand and seven. And Peter Greeves is
Speaker 2: his friend and also a close family friend of the
Speaker 2: McDougall family. He's also a retired detective. So between them
Speaker 2: they have this absolute wealth of knowledge of policing and
Speaker 2: they both worked in all different areas homicide, drugs, you know,
Speaker 2: just an absolute wealth of policing experience. But very early
Speaker 2: on they were connected to the case, of course, because
Speaker 2: Barie is Chantelle's uncle, and very early on, when Chantell's
Speaker 2: parents were really concerned, they hadn't heard from her. She'd
Speaker 2: told them they were moving to Brazil, but they hadn't,
Speaker 2: you know, she hadn't gotten in touch to let them
Speaker 2: know that they'd arrived safely. I believe that it was
Speaker 2: Barrie that recommended Chantelle's parents to go to Peter Greaves
Speaker 2: and report Chantal missing and get his help with that.
Speaker 2: So very early on in the weeks and months after
Speaker 2: the disappearance, Peter Greaves was helping Chantelle's parents and also
Speaker 2: doing his own I guess early investigation. He was able
Speaker 2: to look into Chantelle's bank account and very quickly learned
Speaker 2: that Chantelle hadn't touched her bank account since the time
Speaker 2: that they said they were leaving for Brazil. He also
Speaker 2: discovered that no one had traveled on her passport or
Speaker 2: Leela's passport, and yeah, so I guess those two elements
Speaker 2: very quickly raised alarm bells for Peter, and you know,
Speaker 2: he felt that this was actually quite serious. From there, he,
Speaker 2: you know, I guess, went up the chain of the
Speaker 2: Victorian Police Force to report the missing to the Western
Speaker 2: Australian Police Force and who then took on the investigation
Speaker 2: from there, so I guess that's a bit of their
Speaker 2: really early involvement. And the case was then passed on
Speaker 2: to WA Police, who took that on conducted early missing
Speaker 2: persons investigations and eventually a homicide investigation that led to
Speaker 2: the coronial inquest. And at the time the inquest found
Speaker 2: that the coroner couldn't find you know, I couldn't make
Speaker 2: a decision on whether the four were alive or dead,
Speaker 2: So you know, I guess that didn't provide much closure
Speaker 2: for the McDougall family. So after that, Barry McIntosh and
Speaker 2: Peter Greaves came back in and Barry macintosh requested a
Speaker 2: copy of the police investigation. And actually, at the very
Speaker 2: start of the COVID pandemic, he had the time and
Speaker 2: space to really go over the investigation and look for
Speaker 2: things that he felt had been missed, and he did
Speaker 2: find a pretty I guess, a glaring thing that I
Speaker 2: can I get into that he felt police had missed
Speaker 2: or got wrong. And that brings us up to the
Speaker 2: current day and where we're at.
Speaker 1: Now, let's set the scene a bit before we get
Speaker 1: to this big revelation. I want to talk about a
Speaker 1: key bit of evidence that kind of places us in
Speaker 1: the area that is searched. So obviously the four go
Speaker 1: missing from nanop which is where they've been living, but
Speaker 1: there is a bus ticket or bus ticket evidence that
Speaker 1: kind of places them in Northcliff where kind of barries
Speaker 1: evidence kind of unfolds. Tell us about that evidence and
Speaker 1: how we can place then and up four potentially in
Speaker 1: Northcliff area.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this area, this town or area of Bushland
Speaker 2: near Northcliffe, which for people who aren't familiar with the
Speaker 2: southwest of WA. Northcliffe is a town about an hour's
Speaker 2: drive south of Nanap southeast of Nanap and much like now,
Speaker 2: probably even more so, it's very isolated, very remote kind
Speaker 2: of area. But there are a number of reasons why
Speaker 2: Barry Macintosh believes that that Northcliff area is significant. The
Speaker 2: first being that in the lead up to the disappearance,
Speaker 2: Simon Cadwill, who we now know as Gary Felton, was
Speaker 2: operating an online cult and in the months before their disappearance,
Speaker 2: he was speaking to one of his online followers of
Speaker 2: plans for a family suicide pact, and in his words,
Speaker 2: he said, the plan was for the four of them
Speaker 2: to wander into a remote area and take their own
Speaker 2: lives and for the bodies to be to be buried.
Speaker 2: It's I find even saying it out loud, I find
Speaker 2: it quite difficult to talk about. But that is what
Speaker 2: is recorded as what he said. I do need to
Speaker 2: mention that that that follower challenged him on that and said,
Speaker 2: you know, if you do that, that is tantamount to
Speaker 2: murdering Leela, his daughter, And at that point he became
Speaker 2: more closed off with that follower and said, actually he'd
Speaker 2: changed his mind and they would just move somewhere where
Speaker 2: people couldn't find him. But that is what he had
Speaker 2: told them his plan was. So that is the first
Speaker 2: reason why Barry believes this area is significant. The second
Speaker 2: reason is because in the days around the disappearance, there
Speaker 2: were two bus tickets booked connected to the four. These
Speaker 2: bus tickets were both booked under the same fake name,
Speaker 2: Jay Roberts, which also happens to be the name of
Speaker 2: the road that they lived on at the time. Now,
Speaker 2: one of these bus tickets to Northcliffe was not used,
Speaker 2: but the one that was booked the next day, the
Speaker 2: day after that first ticket, was used. So one of
Speaker 2: the gro it is believed, we don't know exactly which one,
Speaker 2: but someone connected to the group, one of the group
Speaker 2: took a bus to Northcliff. So that is the second
Speaker 2: reason why that Northcliffe area is significant. And then finally,
Speaker 2: in the days sorry in the months after the disappearance,
Speaker 2: there was a group of prisoners from a nearby prison
Speaker 2: conducting track clearing in the area in an area of
Speaker 2: bushland near Northcliffe, and while they were conducting that clearing,
Speaker 2: they reported finding items of clothing and a smell of death.
Speaker 3: In the area.
Speaker 2: Now, they told the prison officer who was supervising them
Speaker 2: of that, and he reported that to police at the time,
Speaker 2: to local police who then went to the bushland and they,
Speaker 2: I guess, conducted their own s, but they said they
Speaker 2: found a T shirt, but it looked like it had
Speaker 2: been there for years rather than months, and they couldn't
Speaker 2: smell a thing. Many years later, when the case was
Speaker 2: reviewed again, place did another search of that Northcliff bushland.
Speaker 2: That search was based off the memory of one of
Speaker 2: those original officers that went to that area to check
Speaker 2: it out when it was reported by those prisoners. So
Speaker 2: there were two searches conducted of bushland in the North
Speaker 2: Cliff area relating to this case, which brings us to
Speaker 2: Barry Macintosh. And when he went over the files, when
Speaker 2: he got his hands on the police file, he immediately
Speaker 2: went to look at that the notes I guess around
Speaker 2: that Northcliff search, and pretty quickly he established that he
Speaker 2: believed that police had actually been in the wrong area
Speaker 2: all along when they went to check out that area.
Speaker 1: They didn't search the area that the prisoners were looking at.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what Barry believed very early on in the piece.
Speaker 2: He thought actually looking at this, I think they've searched.
Speaker 3: The wrong area.
Speaker 2: He actually tracked down the prison officer who was supervising
Speaker 2: those prisoners on that day to work out the exact coordinates.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't until I was able to sit down
Speaker 2: with WA police recently that they confirmed that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Actually that the twenty fifteen search that they conducted of
Speaker 2: the bushland that was in the wrong area. That search
Speaker 2: was based off the memory of an officer who searched in.
Speaker 3: Two thousand and seven.
Speaker 2: But they can't confirm the exact location of that early
Speaker 2: search because the coordinates of that search weren't recorded. But
Speaker 2: if the memory of that office is correct, it means
Speaker 2: that neither of those searchers were in the right place.
Speaker 2: The reason that they couldn't smell anything was because they
Speaker 2: were nowhere near the spot where those prisoners were conducting
Speaker 2: that clearing that day.
Speaker 1: How did you react to this news, because that's a
Speaker 1: pretty baffling mistake.
Speaker 2: It is really hard to go, you know, think of
Speaker 2: the what ifs and think if that is right and
Speaker 2: they were in the wrong place. You know, they were
Speaker 2: about a kilometer or so out from where those prisoners
Speaker 2: were carrying out track clearing, and you know, there's a
Speaker 2: chance that it was nothing at all, or you know,
Speaker 2: it might not have been them there. We don't know,
Speaker 2: but it's disappointing. I guess it's disappointing for the family
Speaker 2: to feel that there is, I guess, this lead that
Speaker 2: could have been in investigated and now it turns out
Speaker 2: it wasn't, and you know, that's really disappointing.
Speaker 1: And it would have only been within a few months
Speaker 1: as well, like three months after the disappearance, So the
Speaker 1: chances of finding intact bodies that soon there was a chance,
Speaker 1: whereas you know, the later search or the searches that
Speaker 1: have been done recently, it gets a lot harder. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us about the search that Barry and Peter
Speaker 1: conducted themselves, because they went out there in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So when Barry had a look over the police
Speaker 2: investigation file and you know, found that era, he immediately
Speaker 2: wanted to go there himself and search that area. So
Speaker 2: him and Peter Greaves, who we remember from early on
Speaker 2: in the Peace who helped with that early investigation. From Victoria,
Speaker 2: they traveled to where Australia to Northcliffe. Together they hired
Speaker 2: drone technology they brought with them a team of volunteer
Speaker 2: Kadava dogs, which are dogs which can smell out human remains,
Speaker 2: and over about the course of a week, they conducted
Speaker 2: their own search of that area of bushland, and they
Speaker 2: really methodically, you know, the way they described it to me,
Speaker 2: it was like they were conducting a professional investigation. They
Speaker 2: were methodically going over areas of bushland and I guess
Speaker 2: crossing them off as they went along. But on one
Speaker 2: of the final days of the search, one of the
Speaker 2: dogs picked up a scent and it was interesting. I
Speaker 2: actually spoke with one of the members of that Kadava
Speaker 2: dog team, and the way that he described it it
Speaker 2: was quite vivid. He said that one of the dogs
Speaker 2: picked up a scent at the bottom of this big
Speaker 2: hill and it was kind of this puddle of water
Speaker 2: and the sort of water coursing down the hill. And
Speaker 2: he said, the way that they've trained their dogs to
Speaker 2: indicate a scent is for the dogs to lay flat
Speaker 2: when they detect something. So he said, one of the
Speaker 2: dogs laid down and that indicated ascent in the area.
Speaker 2: So then they brought another dog into that area from
Speaker 2: a different direction, and he said that dog also laid
Speaker 2: down on the ground. Indicating a cent, and then they
Speaker 2: brought in another dog from a different direction because I
Speaker 2: guess the way he explained it, they don't want the
Speaker 2: dogs to I guess for them, it provides more accuracy
Speaker 2: if they're bringing them in from different directions. So they
Speaker 2: brought in another dog from a different direction, and that
Speaker 2: dog also laid down, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2: Peter Greaves and Bowry Macintosh they dug around that area
Speaker 2: and unfortunately were not able to find anything. And because
Speaker 2: the terrain that they're working with, it's really hard to
Speaker 2: describe unless you've seen it yourself, but it's such thick bushland,
Speaker 2: and it was the middle of winter, and they're at
Speaker 2: the bottom of this hill, which the dogs weren't able
Speaker 2: to get up because the bushland is so dense. I
Speaker 2: guess what they believe has happened is because there is
Speaker 2: this water traveling down the hill. I guess there's this
Speaker 2: erosion channel, as they described it to me, coming down
Speaker 2: this hill. They believe that the scent could have been
Speaker 2: carried over perhaps a couple of hundred meters, So they
Speaker 2: weren't able to get up this hill and do a
Speaker 2: thorough search of that area. But now I guess in
Speaker 2: light of what the police have confirmed that they were
Speaker 2: in the wrong spot when they carried out that twenty
Speaker 2: fifteen search, they're now trying to raise money so they
Speaker 2: can come back to Western Australia and do it another
Speaker 2: really thorough search of that bushland.
Speaker 1: Hearing that dog evidence really chilling that all of them
Speaker 1: laid down, So that's got to mean something. Did Did
Speaker 1: Peter and Barry pass this on to WA Police? Have
Speaker 1: they done any extra searches? Was it kind of enough
Speaker 1: evidence for them?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So not long after that search, Barry Macintosh wrote
Speaker 2: to WA Police and requested another search of that bushland.
Speaker 3: Initially, police did reply to.
Speaker 2: Him and say that another search was proposed by police,
Speaker 2: but they needed time and I guess to work out
Speaker 2: the exact area and that sort of thing. But unfortunately
Speaker 2: a few months later they changed their mind and the
Speaker 2: reason they gave to me was because Barry and Peter
Speaker 2: had searched that area in twenty twenty four and that
Speaker 2: was in fact the correct coordinates that the prison officer
Speaker 2: gave that that area has been searched and so there's
Speaker 2: no point in police doing another search. So unfortunately they've
Speaker 2: declined that request from Barry, but he's not giving up
Speaker 2: and he's now trying to crowdfund money so that he
Speaker 2: can bring that team of Kadava dogs and bring the
Speaker 2: drone technology back to Northcliffe and conduct a new search
Speaker 2: of the area.
Speaker 1: When he says he wants to do a new search,
Speaker 1: is he pretty certain of the exact area that he
Speaker 1: needs to go next? Like? How big of a kind
Speaker 1: of area are we looking at?
Speaker 2: My understanding from how it's been described to me is
Speaker 2: that the search would take maximum two to three days.
Speaker 3: It's not a big area of bushland.
Speaker 2: They've I guess, been able to with that scent from
Speaker 2: the Kadava dogs and going back to the prison officer
Speaker 2: and having more conversations, they've really been able to kind
Speaker 2: of pinpoint a pretty small area of bushland. So it
Speaker 2: wouldn't take much. Yeah, like I said, a couple of days,
Speaker 2: three days at most, as I understand it. But because
Speaker 2: Barry and Peter are in Victoria, it's not you know,
Speaker 2: it takes time and it takes money, and you've got
Speaker 2: to organize a team of Kadava dogs, you've got to
Speaker 2: organize the drone technology, accommodation, all that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: So it's more of a logistical challenge I guess of
Speaker 2: actually organizing it rather than the search itself, If that
Speaker 2: makes sense.
Speaker 1: Well, I can see on the GoFundMe that Barry's trying
Speaker 1: to raise nine thousand dollars, so he's basically just waiting
Speaker 1: for the funds to then be able to do this
Speaker 1: final search to hopefully then get answers. Is that where
Speaker 1: we're at.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So now where it stands today is Barry's put
Speaker 2: together the the online fundraiser, the go fundme, and he's
Speaker 2: trying to raise I think, yeah, he's put nine thousand
Speaker 2: dollars there and that will allow him to pay for travel,
Speaker 2: to pay for travel for the Kadava dogs, that sort
Speaker 2: of thing. So yeah, if he's able to raise those funds,
Speaker 2: he plans to get back to wa later this year
Speaker 2: and hopefully cross off that area. Because you know, it's
Speaker 2: a lead, but I'm also aware that, you know, it
Speaker 2: might not be them. But as you know, I was
Speaker 2: having a chat with the Cadava dog trainer and he said,
Speaker 2: you know, I stand by my dogs one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: I'm really confident in their abilities. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: it might not be them. It could be somebody else,
Speaker 2: but he said it's important that we go back to
Speaker 2: that area and do another search so that we can
Speaker 2: find out and at least, at the very least cross
Speaker 2: it off the list.
Speaker 1: How does Chantelle's parents feel about this so many years later,
Speaker 1: having such a breakthrough, such a kind of glimmer of hope.
Speaker 1: How are they coping with it?
Speaker 2: Honestly, I think this is something that they've dealt with before.
Speaker 2: This has been their life for nearly twenty years, and
Speaker 2: so I'm really aware when we're talking about this as
Speaker 2: hope on the horizon or potentially answers on the horizon,
Speaker 2: they have been through this before of having hope and
Speaker 2: potentially having answers and then feeling let down and you know,
Speaker 2: just having more questions. I guess, you know, I can
Speaker 2: liken it to when they found out that Simon Cadwell's
Speaker 2: true identity was Gary Felton at the time. I imagine
Speaker 2: that would have been such a huge breakthrough and like,
Speaker 2: surely this is leading to answers, Surely something is going
Speaker 2: to come of this, and then nothing.
Speaker 3: So I'm really aware that.
Speaker 2: It could be the same again, but it also might
Speaker 2: not be And that's a really difficult place to be
Speaker 2: in and I know that they do want that area searched,
Speaker 2: but I'm sure with it out putting words in their mouth,
Speaker 2: I'm sure that it's something that you have to balance
Speaker 2: that hope and just remaining realistic and knowing that this
Speaker 2: has been something that you've dealt with for nearly two decades.
Speaker 1: You've been working on this case for quite a while.
Speaker 1: Now where does this put you? Are you also waiting
Speaker 1: or what's next for you with this story?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, as you can imagine, it's hard not to spend
Speaker 2: so much time with these people and with their story
Speaker 2: and not feel incredibly invested in it, And it would
Speaker 2: be wonderful if doing this podcast has in some way
Speaker 2: pushed the case forward. I will certainly be staying with it.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's even though the podcast has come out,
Speaker 2: As you know with podcasts, you can always make another episode.
Speaker 2: So where it stands is, you know, the podcast is out,
Speaker 2: but it's I have not stopped looking into the circuitcumstances
Speaker 2: around the disappearance, and I will be absolutely bringing listeners
Speaker 2: an update on any significant developments that we have from
Speaker 2: now on, which would be wonderful to be able to do.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's certainly not the end of the road
Speaker 2: for me, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: Thanks to Dom for sharing this update with us. You
Speaker 1: can listen to the podcast Expanse the NNE up four
Speaker 1: at the link in our show notes. We've also linked
Speaker 1: to the GoFundMe page to raise money for a Final Search.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to donate, This episode did discuss suicide.
Speaker 1: If you or someone you know needs support, please contact
Speaker 1: Lifeline Australia at thirteen eleven fourteen