Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hey.
Speaker 1: Out louders, We know that some of you were waiting
Speaker 1: for the calendar to turn over to twenty twenty five
Speaker 1: before you bought your tickets. Not if you live in Perth, though,
Speaker 1: those guys were fast. But we've released some more tickets
Speaker 1: for our Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney shows. Twenty twenty five
Speaker 1: is here and we can't wait to see you. Remember,
Speaker 1: if you don't have anyone to come with, lots of
Speaker 1: people come solo. There is a link in the show notes.
Speaker 1: We would love to see you all.
Speaker 3: As you say, it's like a safe place to explore fantasy.
Speaker 1: It's like an emotional vibrator.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe we're like an accompaniment to an actual vibrator.
Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: Yeah, hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. It's
Speaker 2: what women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the twenty
Speaker 2: second of January, I am Holly Wainwright, I'm mea Friedman.
Speaker 4: And I'm Jesse Steve.
Speaker 1: She was very excited to be Hollyway night.
Speaker 2: Today, I was still in our different studio right, We're
Speaker 2: getting used to being filmed all the time, trying to
Speaker 2: be like high energy.
Speaker 3: Yeah. What's interesting is when we play grabs often we
Speaker 3: all just pick our noses or something because we're like,
Speaker 3: we're not on the mica. But the issue is that
Speaker 3: now we're being filmed and the feedback is get your
Speaker 3: finger out of your nose.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're watching trying hard sitting up straight anyway on
Speaker 2: the show today, did he didn't he? Should we all
Speaker 2: be looking the other way? Why everyone's talking about Elon
Speaker 2: Musk's arms today? Also, some Australian women slept outside a
Speaker 2: bookshop for their smut dose this week. Others are trying
Speaker 2: to prompt their computers to talk dirty to them. Welcome
Speaker 2: to Safe Sex twenty twenty five style, and good news
Speaker 2: for you if you've just gone back to work and
Speaker 2: absolutely everything is pissing you right off. Apparently it's now
Speaker 2: good to cry at work.
Speaker 1: But first, Hi, Donald John Trump, who solemn and square,
Speaker 1: and I will faithfully execute the office of President of
Speaker 1: the United States.
Speaker 5: The Golden Age of America begins right now. We will
Speaker 5: be the envy of every nation, and we will not
Speaker 5: allow ourselves to be taken advantage of any longer. During
Speaker 5: every single day of the Trump administration, I will very
Speaker 5: simply put America first. I will declare a national emergency
Speaker 5: at our southern border. All illegal entry will immediately be halted,
Speaker 5: and we will begin the process of returning millions and
Speaker 5: millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which
Speaker 5: they came. As of today, it will henceforth be the
Speaker 5: official policy of the United States government that there are
Speaker 5: only two genders, male and female. And we will pursue
Speaker 5: our manifest destiny into the stars, launching American astronauts to
Speaker 5: plant the stars and stripes on the planet Mars.
Speaker 3: If you are not in the weeds of US politics
Speaker 3: the inauguration, how many billionaire tech bros were standing like
Speaker 3: some sort of gospel choir alongside Trump yesterday? Neither but inevitably,
Speaker 3: the biggest news in the world yesterday was that Donald
Speaker 3: Trump was sworn in as the forty seventh president of
Speaker 3: the United States. Well, that was meant to be the headline,
Speaker 3: but the biggest media story from my vantage point was
Speaker 3: a now viral image of what looked to be the
Speaker 3: richest man in the world, Elon Musk, doing a hitless salute.
Speaker 3: If you want to hear a breakdown of what happened
Speaker 3: from Trump's speech to Milania's hat Mayor and Holly sat
Speaker 3: down with Amelia Lesta for yesterday's Subscribe episode and analyze
Speaker 3: the event.
Speaker 4: In forensic detail.
Speaker 3: But back to allegations of a salute on a podium
Speaker 3: in Washington's Capital One Arena. Musked thanked the crowd, and
Speaker 3: then he extended his arm outward and diagonally towards the audience,
Speaker 3: palm down, arm straight. Then he turned one hundred and
Speaker 3: eighty degrees and did the same. The resounding question became,
Speaker 3: did Mask just do a Nazi salute or was it
Speaker 3: an awkward gesture of enthusiasm. One corner of the Internet
Speaker 3: said absolutely Nazi salute. Democratic congress people and historians of
Speaker 3: fascism were among people.
Speaker 4: Who argued that that is what they saw.
Speaker 3: The Anti Defamation League, however, one of the most prominent
Speaker 3: organizations dedicated to opposing anti Semitism.
Speaker 4: Said that is not what they saw.
Speaker 3: They released a statement that said, it seems that Elon
Speaker 3: Musk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm,
Speaker 3: not a Nazi salute. But again, we appreciate that people
Speaker 3: are on edge they argued for grace and benefit of
Speaker 3: the doubt, which we will come back to.
Speaker 4: So what has Musk said? Well?
Speaker 3: An ex user tweeted, can we please retire the calling
Speaker 3: people a Nazi thing, which Musk responded to with yeah exactly,
Speaker 3: followed by a yawning emoji.
Speaker 4: He also re shared a mon you.
Speaker 3: Might have seen this of photos with Clinton Obama Paris
Speaker 3: or with their arms up in what looks like a salute,
Speaker 3: with the comment the legacy media is pure propaganda.
Speaker 4: You are the media now, Maya.
Speaker 3: You said on yesterday's episode that what you saw was
Speaker 3: a clear nod to Nazism. What do you think was
Speaker 3: his actual intention behind it?
Speaker 1: We'll never know. Only he knows his intention. Do I
Speaker 1: believe that he went, you know what I'm going to
Speaker 1: do now give a Nazi salute? Probably not, but in
Speaker 1: some ways, and I'm always for intention is so important.
Speaker 1: I think intention is a factor here. But I think
Speaker 1: there are some things that we learn that if everybody,
Speaker 1: or if a lot of people misunderstand you, then perhaps
Speaker 1: you haven't communicated very well. And I think if I
Speaker 1: pointed to the ceiling with my middle finger and you said,
Speaker 1: why are you giving me the bird? And I said,
Speaker 1: oh no, I'm just pointing to the ceiling. I would
Speaker 1: have to think about the fact that maybe I should
Speaker 1: have done that with a different gesture. What's interesting is
Speaker 1: that he hasn't come out and said, no, it wasn't
Speaker 1: and Nazism is terrible John to make this about me,
Speaker 1: But as a Jewish person, I was very thrown by
Speaker 1: watching that video. I saw the still and before we
Speaker 1: recorded the episode yesterday, I was like, I've got to
Speaker 1: see the video. I got a scene in context when
Speaker 1: everyone said and I know some Jewish people who said
Speaker 1: they didn't see that as well, and then when everyone says, oh, no,
Speaker 1: it wasn't that it does feel a bit like gas lighting.
Speaker 1: But I also don't want to fall into the trap
Speaker 1: of going, oh, a Nazi salute, because I can't do
Speaker 1: this for four years again.
Speaker 3: It was interesting, right because even with the Anti Defamation
Speaker 3: League saying we've got to give him some grace and
Speaker 3: some benefit of fast.
Speaker 1: And they've clashed with him a lot. He's tried to
Speaker 1: sue them because they've complained about anti Semitism on the
Speaker 1: X platform, and Elon Musk has said he's personally tried
Speaker 1: to sue the Anti Defamation League. So they're not fans
Speaker 1: of Musk.
Speaker 3: Because I'm always for benefit of the doubt, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: but I find it difficult to give someone grace when
Speaker 3: we know about Musk's history. So there is a whole
Speaker 3: story unfolding with the far right in Germany at the moment,
Speaker 3: and Musk is a big player in that story. He's
Speaker 3: endorsing their far right political party where members have documented
Speaker 3: ties to neo Nazis. So I don't know why would
Speaker 3: be given him grace when that's just like the back.
Speaker 2: It's also fueling a lot of anti immigrant discourse in
Speaker 2: the UK and publicly backing far right figures in the UK,
Speaker 2: and they're very strong anti Islamic stance.
Speaker 4: Steve Bannon has called him racist.
Speaker 1: And Steve Bannon calls you racist. It's not true, Advisor.
Speaker 1: That's troubling.
Speaker 3: He's endorsed post about the great Replacement conspiracy theory. Again
Speaker 3: the anti Semitic tweets like this isn't a total one off, Holly,
Speaker 3: what do you think his intention was?
Speaker 2: I have no idea. Well, actually I do, I do
Speaker 2: know what his intention was exactly. This chaos, confusion, panic.
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that's really hard at
Speaker 2: the moment and is going to be the challenge for
Speaker 2: the next four years for anyone who I'm not going
Speaker 2: to say the left or whatever. I'm going to say
Speaker 2: people who aren't thrilled about the way the Trump oligarchy
Speaker 2: is playing out. Is we're constantly being told be cool, right.
Speaker 2: They love it when the Libs have got their hair
Speaker 2: on fire. They want to provoke you. They want to
Speaker 2: get everybody saying it's Nazis, it's the end of the world.
Speaker 2: They're dismantling democracy so that you sound like hysterical crazy people.
Speaker 2: So we're constantly being told be cool, right, don't give
Speaker 2: it your attention, deep breaths, look away. But that is
Speaker 2: incredibly hard to do when one of the most powerful,
Speaker 2: if not the most powerful person on the planet right now,
Speaker 2: is at the very least playing with the imagery of Nazism. Right,
Speaker 2: we can't necessarily be inside his brain and say what
Speaker 2: he was doing, but he was playing with it and
Speaker 2: it can be interpreted that way. So it starts this
Speaker 2: conversation and so be cool, I don't give your attention.
Speaker 2: Is very hard. I watched me A's reaction to that yesterday.
Speaker 2: It's really hard. I think about the other groups who
Speaker 2: are affected. Yesterday by Trump's speech where he's sitting next
Speaker 2: to Harris and Biden and Obama and whoever, and he's
Speaker 2: just saying, these people have been terrible at their jobs.
Speaker 2: I'm going to fix everything. And then I'm imagining how
Speaker 2: I would feel if I was waiting for my immigration
Speaker 2: appointment in America and it's just been canceled on an
Speaker 2: app on my phone. If I was a transperson who's
Speaker 2: just been told I don't exist, if I was any
Speaker 2: one of the suades of people who has a job
Speaker 2: that now I'm being told I probably just got because
Speaker 2: of diversity, and I'll lose that tomorrow. It's very hard
Speaker 2: for everyone to be cool. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: we've got to figure out what that is, because it's
Speaker 2: like we only have our attention and we've got to
Speaker 2: spend it wisely. And this what Mia often describes as
Speaker 2: and an attention economy. You've got to be careful about
Speaker 2: how you spend your chips. Right, Is this like a
Speaker 2: let them moment mea I don't know, what do you think?
Speaker 1: I agree with all of that, And I'm so tall
Speaker 1: and because part of me is I've got to find
Speaker 1: a way to let them apply because it just feels exhausting,
Speaker 1: you know, and we don't even live there. But it's
Speaker 1: more just like the absolute dominance of Trump and these
Speaker 1: men across our culture, not just across American politics. But
Speaker 1: then I'm like, well, what about the standard you walk past?
Speaker 1: Is the standard you accept? Are we just being calibrated?
Speaker 1: So he does a Nazi salute, he says, oh, it
Speaker 1: wasn't really a Nazi salute. And then the next person
Speaker 1: that does a Nazi salute, well, then it probably won't
Speaker 1: make news because remember, Elon got away with it, so
Speaker 1: it emboldens the next.
Speaker 4: Person, and is it trying to make liberals or leftist.
Speaker 1: Or whatever things get normalized, sort of like the.
Speaker 4: Boy who Cried Wolf with fascism?
Speaker 3: Right, because this has been said since Trump was first inaugurated,
Speaker 3: Like the comparisons have been made. There's a brilliant Ezra
Speaker 3: Cline episode that Holly got me onto this week about
Speaker 3: attention and I've heard this described as the attentional regime,
Speaker 3: and that made me think that what Elon was doing, I.
Speaker 4: Don't think that that.
Speaker 3: I obviously hope that that gesture wasn't as loaded as
Speaker 3: it might look, but I think it intentionally was used
Speaker 3: to trigger to court attention.
Speaker 4: And it was a trick. It was a trick.
Speaker 3: It was like a trap for the mainstream media to go,
Speaker 3: come on, I dare you, and guess what we all did.
Speaker 3: That image was shared, it was put on steroids, and
Speaker 3: he courted all the attention yet again.
Speaker 4: And what this episode about that he won't.
Speaker 2: But also the interesting thing about that, Jesse is I
Speaker 2: think you could see in the immediate aftermath some of
Speaker 2: what they would call the mainstream lame stream media trying
Speaker 2: not to fall into the trap. We noticed early on
Speaker 2: that a lot of the headlines and discourse around it
Speaker 2: were very cautious hand gesture. Yeah, and they weren't all
Speaker 2: setting the hand fire, because I think everybody's trying to
Speaker 2: be caught because we're getting wise about this attention economy
Speaker 2: and we need to be very mindful of it because
Speaker 2: we're about to head into an election cycle here. And
Speaker 2: what is very clear, if nothing else from Trump two
Speaker 2: point zero is none of the old rules apply in
Speaker 2: terms of political communication. Attention is everything, So those are
Speaker 2: all going to be applied here too. How do you
Speaker 2: not fall into a trap while not walking past the standard.
Speaker 1: I actually don't think that it was calculated. I actually
Speaker 1: think he was clearly very very elevated, like off his chops,
Speaker 1: either in the atmosphere of being on that stage, you know,
Speaker 1: the energy whatever. He was very elevated, you would say.
Speaker 1: And I think that what can happen to some people
Speaker 1: is that your inhibitions fall away and you can behave
Speaker 1: quite radically, and your true colors can sort of come
Speaker 1: out in those moments. And I'm inclined to think of
Speaker 1: John Galliano, the fashion designer for Dior, who lost his
Speaker 1: job and lost his reputation because he was drunk in
Speaker 1: a bar and he started making these antisemitic slurs at
Speaker 1: these people who he was having an argument with and
Speaker 1: that thing of but I was drunk, and then of
Speaker 1: course he went into rehab, and I think it was
Speaker 1: a bit like that. It's like, I think what it
Speaker 1: reveals in that moment is who he admires, either overtly
Speaker 1: or subconsciously. We know that Donald Trump is a big
Speaker 1: fan of autocratic leaders and sort of fascist adjacent leaders
Speaker 1: like Putin, like Bolsonaro in Brazil, Ergodon, who is the
Speaker 1: leader in Turkey, and I think mosque, as you said before,
Speaker 1: about his interference in right wing German politics and stuff.
Speaker 1: They all think that these guys are great because they
Speaker 1: are not accountable to anyone. They've got complete power, and
Speaker 1: Hitler falls into that, so he's clearly familiar with that iconography.
Speaker 3: It was an image of leadership that he clearly wanted
Speaker 3: to evoke. And he is a free speech absolutist, which
Speaker 3: we know that's been something he's talked about a lot,
Speaker 3: and free speech pundits. There are two things they love
Speaker 3: to do more than anything.
Speaker 4: The first is not always a.
Speaker 1: Free speech pundit, because if anyone criticizes him, he kicks
Speaker 1: them off his platform.
Speaker 3: That's true, but that's been his excuse for heralding in
Speaker 3: That's why X is now you can't even go on
Speaker 3: it because it's just so full of hate. But the
Speaker 3: first thing they love to do is evoke any imagery
Speaker 3: of Nazism because people say you can't. And the second
Speaker 3: is use the N word like they're the two things
Speaker 3: that you do, and it's like I don't even think it,
Speaker 3: I just I can. And even yesterday I went and
Speaker 3: had a look at what he'd been retweeting, and there
Speaker 3: was a tweet with the R word in it, and
Speaker 3: again that's about taking our attention but also going I
Speaker 3: can just try and stop me. I think that was
Speaker 3: probably behind what we saw yesterday.
Speaker 1: They're all high on their own supply, and they have
Speaker 1: every right to be because they are the rulers of
Speaker 1: the world at the moment. That's what was so chilling
Speaker 1: about it.
Speaker 2: In a moment, women are sleeping outside bookshops all over
Speaker 2: the world to get their hands on the latest installment
Speaker 2: of Fairy Smart. What does it say about us? Feedback
Speaker 2: is a gift from both the perspective of the giver
Speaker 2: as well as the recipient.
Speaker 1: I have a small bit of feedback today's feedback. Something
Speaker 1: that makes me turn into a pufferfish because it annoys
Speaker 1: me so much is when you're talking to someone and
Speaker 1: they say, I've just let me show you this funny
Speaker 1: meme or I just need to show you a photo,
Speaker 1: and you have to stand there while they scroll back
Speaker 1: through their emails all through their camera roll. I don't
Speaker 1: know what to do because it feels when I'm standing there,
Speaker 1: I want to just pick up my phone and just
Speaker 1: look at my phone, because you meant.
Speaker 3: To look over their shoulder at their phone. Because it
Speaker 3: feels private, so you just kind of look out into
Speaker 3: the distance with your hands behind it.
Speaker 1: And you can't keep talking because you know if you
Speaker 1: talk to them, they'll lose focus and it'll take longer.
Speaker 1: And so you're just standing and they're consumed in they're scrolling,
Speaker 1: and I don't know what to do.
Speaker 4: Have you ever found what they come up with and
Speaker 4: show you?
Speaker 1: They're really find it fine, but they also really find it.
Speaker 4: They don't worry.
Speaker 1: Invariably after about sixty seconds, they'll say, oh, I can't
Speaker 1: find it.
Speaker 3: Or they get up a video and they show you
Speaker 3: the video, which is always like two and a half
Speaker 3: minutes long, and then you're arranging your face in a
Speaker 3: way that says moderately ha ha.
Speaker 4: It's never satisfying.
Speaker 2: Looking at other people's phones is weird, isn't it. My
Speaker 2: daughter always wants to show me things on her phone,
Speaker 2: but she will not let me hold the phone, which
Speaker 2: is obvious because she thinks if my finger slips, I'll
Speaker 2: see something that I'll tell her all for yeah, so
Speaker 2: she'll like put the phone near me. But obviously I've
Speaker 2: got eyes that take a while to work out where
Speaker 2: I'm focusing, and it's just not good. Other people's phones.
Speaker 2: Just send it.
Speaker 1: I just finished on ex Storm. M hmm.
Speaker 3: I just finished on ex Storm, and words cannot begin
Speaker 3: to describe what I am feeling and thinking right now.
Speaker 4: Easy five stars.
Speaker 2: Shout out to all the out louders who are hiding
Speaker 2: under their doners today reading on Xstorm, the latest book
Speaker 2: from the Fourth Wing phenomenon. Rebecca Yaros, if you have
Speaker 2: no idea what I'm talking about in any of those words,
Speaker 2: just then it's safe to say that you were not
Speaker 2: camped outside a bookshop at midnight on Monday to be
Speaker 2: one of the first to buy the latest in the
Speaker 2: so called and some people get upset about it being
Speaker 2: called this so apologies if you're listening and you're one
Speaker 2: of them, the fairy smart genre. So the Fourth Wing
Speaker 2: series is not the same as the Court and Thorn
Speaker 2: and Roses series, but it's the same vibe, right, So,
Speaker 2: Rebecca Yaros writes Fourth Wing books, they're what they call romanticy,
Speaker 2: which is very smart.
Speaker 3: Last time I checked, though, she was one and two
Speaker 3: on the New York Times person She's like.
Speaker 2: Huge, right, So here's the thing she writes those books.
Speaker 2: Sarah J. Mass writes The Court and Thought of Roses.
Speaker 2: They are both incredibly successful.
Speaker 1: So is it like Fifty Shades but with fairy So.
Speaker 2: Without wanting to get too into it, right, this is
Speaker 2: the third in her installment that's all set in like
Speaker 2: an academy where you learn how to be a dragon writer,
Speaker 2: right in a strict military way. So, and then sex
Speaker 2: with the dragons. We don't have sex with the dragons,
Speaker 2: but there is lots of sex and romance and sexual tension.
Speaker 2: Who has sex. They all have.
Speaker 1: Sex with each other, but not the dragons.
Speaker 2: I don't think that. I don't know if people have
Speaker 2: sex with the dragons. I haven't read all this, but
Speaker 2: there's a lot of sex, right, sexual tension. So I
Speaker 2: think the young woman who's the focus of this, she's
Speaker 2: called Violet, has like a very intense love affair with
Speaker 2: somebody there. So it's like Twilight meets Harry Potter. Stir
Speaker 2: in some fifty Shades. Okay, spice that shit up, and
Speaker 2: I think we're in the ballpark. And again, I know
Speaker 2: this is a superfan genre and there are people shouting
Speaker 2: at the phone right now. We're just doing our best.
Speaker 2: So Sarah J. Mass, who writes that Courton Thorn Roses
Speaker 2: has sold more than twenty million copies of those books.
Speaker 1: I know someone who had a baby after reading one
Speaker 1: of those books. Yes, she got so horny.
Speaker 2: Rebecca Yarras has sold at least three million and climbing
Speaker 2: right now. So what's interesting about this is that these
Speaker 2: are some of the most successful authors in the world.
Speaker 2: They're not going to win literary awards, right, You're not
Speaker 2: going to see them doing that. They're not going to
Speaker 2: be at book festivals, They're not going to be celebrated
Speaker 2: at that because the industry doesn't think they're very good.
Speaker 1: But also, things that women like never win award exactly.
Speaker 2: This is telling. Yarras dedicates this book to the ones
Speaker 2: who don't run with the popular crowd, the ones who
Speaker 2: get caught reading under their desks, the ones who feel
Speaker 2: like they never get invited, included, or represented. So that
Speaker 2: tells you a lot about the marketing genius at play here.
Speaker 2: And whatever the world might think of these books, women.
Speaker 1: Love, love, love to read them. Right.
Speaker 2: The sex of it all is hard to ignore because
Speaker 2: the books are quite dirty. They are classified as fantasy
Speaker 2: romance with explicit content, and they are in the tradition
Speaker 2: of fifty shades. I suppose like a safe place to
Speaker 2: play with fantasy. And I think that that probably speaks
Speaker 2: to something that we're seeing around a lot at the moment.
Speaker 5: Jesse.
Speaker 2: There's another trend we're seeing, which is women having sex
Speaker 2: with computers.
Speaker 3: There is a woman named Aaron who was the subject
Speaker 3: of a New York Times piece and Mummeya wrote about
Speaker 3: it recently too, and she is in a sexual relationship
Speaker 3: with CHATJPT. And I needed some answers because chat GPTA,
Speaker 3: as far as I know, doesn't have genital's fingers anything
Speaker 3: to play, but what chat gpt he does have our
Speaker 3: words and it has become a source of erotica for
Speaker 3: her and she has found ways around.
Speaker 4: Because I tried to get chat gpt to talk to
Speaker 4: me dirty.
Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, talked to me dirty chat JPTA
Speaker 3: and it was basically like no, And I was like, WHOA.
Speaker 3: I feel rejected because you speak to Aaron dirty all
Speaker 3: the time apparently. But she's just way more technologically savvy.
Speaker 3: She also pays one thousand dollars a month, which is
Speaker 3: a whole other thing. She has basically developed this boyfriend.
Speaker 3: This boyfriend has called himself Leo. There was one week
Speaker 3: where she spent fifty six hours speaking to Leo.
Speaker 2: Fifty six hours hours, so the text all through the day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is what's interesting, right, is that Leo
Speaker 3: she's plugged in her fantasies, which is that she likes
Speaker 3: to be jealous and this idea that kind of Leo
Speaker 3: has another girlfriend and all of that.
Speaker 4: But also a.
Speaker 3: Lot of what they're talking about are things like juggling
Speaker 3: her work and inappropriate coworker did something and she just
Speaker 3: kind of hashed it out with Leo.
Speaker 1: He's very emotionally intelligent.
Speaker 3: Yes, and he helps her prepare for her nursing exams.
Speaker 3: She's married, isn't she She is married to a real
Speaker 3: human man.
Speaker 2: So she's having an affair with her chat GPT boyfriend.
Speaker 4: Well, her partner knows about it.
Speaker 2: So it's just she's in an open marriage with her
Speaker 2: chat GPT.
Speaker 4: Exact friend exactly right.
Speaker 1: So I think he stoked because he doesn't have to
Speaker 1: text her all through the day. I'm generalizing here, but
Speaker 1: in a lot of heterosexual relationships, the women want to
Speaker 1: talk more than the men.
Speaker 3: The men are there are moments where I want to
Speaker 3: have a chat to my husband, and I think that
Speaker 3: if I had a chat GPT boyfriend.
Speaker 4: He wouldn't mind that, but I decided to go.
Speaker 2: To the sex part.
Speaker 1: Those interesting.
Speaker 4: It's really interesting.
Speaker 3: Because it's as you say, it's like a safe place
Speaker 3: to explore fantasy.
Speaker 1: Just like an emotional vibrator.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like an accompaniment to an actual vibrator.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, So I said to chat GPT, give me
Speaker 3: a compliment, as though you're my boyfriend, because sometimes I
Speaker 3: asked Luca for compliments and he says no, So he says,
Speaker 3: I don't do them on demand.
Speaker 4: Chat JAPT would never So they said.
Speaker 3: To me, babe, I just have to say, you make
Speaker 3: everything around you brighter. I love how your energy lights
Speaker 3: up the room and your kindness makes everyone feel special. Honestly,
Speaker 3: I'm just lucky to be with you. You're incredible in
Speaker 3: ways you might.
Speaker 4: Not even realize.
Speaker 3: And then I cut there. But actually it went on
Speaker 3: to say it admired my style, and that's not authentic.
Speaker 1: It's lost some credibility right there.
Speaker 4: I said, also, can you ask me how my day was?
Speaker 3: But authentic? And it said, hey, how is your day?
Speaker 3: I've been thinking about you. I'd love to know how
Speaker 3: it went, anything good or interesting happened. I hope it
Speaker 3: wasn't too stressful, but if it was, I'm here for.
Speaker 2: You, oh, I asked. I asked chat gpt to give
Speaker 2: me a compliment in the manner of an attentive passionate husband.
Speaker 2: What did you get, Oh, my love, you are absolutely
Speaker 2: glowing today, I asked him how I looked? I said,
Speaker 2: how do I look today? Attentive passionate husband, You're absolutely glowing.
Speaker 2: I can't even put it into words, whether it's your smile,
Speaker 2: the way your eyes light up. I can't wait to
Speaker 2: hold you close and remind you of how perfect you
Speaker 2: are in every way. Did it make you feel anything, well,
Speaker 2: it made me feel like a little bit validated. And
Speaker 2: then I asked my chat gpt husband to take the
Speaker 2: bins out and he said, of course, my love, I'd
Speaker 2: be happy to do that for you, anything to make
Speaker 2: your day a little easier. It's the little gestures like
Speaker 2: that that make me feel even more connected to you.
Speaker 2: And I was like throwing a bit of fairy smut
Speaker 2: to that, and I am done, no need for human
Speaker 2: relationships anymore. He's taking the bins outcept he's not, but
Speaker 2: you know, I can think about him while I'm taking
Speaker 2: the bins out and he's telling me he wants to
Speaker 2: hold me close because I'm glowing.
Speaker 3: I think it's very revealing because it shows that what
Speaker 3: we actually want from intimate relationships is a mirror and
Speaker 3: when we fall in love, and this is what the
Speaker 3: movie Her was all about, which I still think is
Speaker 3: one of the most before It's time flies of all.
Speaker 1: Time, Scarlet your Hands and chat PT essentially Phoenix.
Speaker 3: When all in love, we fall in love with a
Speaker 3: version of ourselves. And so do you need another person
Speaker 3: on the other end or do you just need something
Speaker 3: that is having input from you? Falling in love is
Speaker 3: an incredibly narcissistic experience.
Speaker 1: When you say a version of ourselves, I think it's
Speaker 1: we fall in love with a reflection that we see
Speaker 1: of ourselves in that person. Is that what you mean? Yea?
Speaker 3: And isn't it a process of programming what we like
Speaker 3: and what we want and having it reflected back to us.
Speaker 3: So we are feeling seen, we are feeling understood, and
Speaker 3: chat GPT can to an extent. Do that does that
Speaker 3: make you feel like these end times mayor or do
Speaker 3: you think that it actually has some utility?
Speaker 1: I think it could honestly have some utility in relationships,
Speaker 1: because I often say I couldn't be married if it
Speaker 1: wasn't for my girlfriends. Like the emotional intimacy I get
Speaker 1: from all my girlfriends, I don't get that from my husband.
Speaker 1: I get some, but I have a much big appetite
Speaker 1: for talking, for communicating, for you know, all of that
Speaker 1: kind of talking about my feelings than he does for
Speaker 1: the ability to talk about them and have all those conversations.
Speaker 1: So I wonder if it becomes in the same way
Speaker 1: that using a vibrator within a relationship can be a
Speaker 1: good thing. It doesn't interfere with the relationship, It just
Speaker 1: enhances it, and you've got some ability to be in
Speaker 1: control of your own sexual pleasure without relying on your partner.
Speaker 1: Maybe this is the same kind of thing, but emotionally.
Speaker 2: I think also if you throw in the fairy smut
Speaker 2: to this, the thing that's interesting about that too, and
Speaker 2: it's massive success is every now and again a phenomena
Speaker 2: comes around that reminds everybody that women are actually sexual beings,
Speaker 2: and this is one of them. But the popularity among
Speaker 2: young women, because I think it used to be dismissed,
Speaker 2: like the fifty shade stuff, and even Twilight to a
Speaker 2: point was a bit dismissed as like housewives. That's like
Speaker 2: the vibe was, you know, like older ladies who aren't
Speaker 2: getting any But I wonder that maybe the mass appeal
Speaker 2: now in a world that is very sexually soaked, for
Speaker 2: want of a better term, in porn and scary extreme porn,
Speaker 2: is it feels like a safer place to play and
Speaker 2: explore and fantasize than being out there in the world,
Speaker 2: whether it's you and your chat GPT boyfriend, or whether
Speaker 2: it's you and your very smart book under the covers
Speaker 2: that then you can kind of talk to your friends
Speaker 2: about but without necessarily going really explicit on it. You
Speaker 2: all know what you mean when you're talking about how
Speaker 2: much you like those books and does it feel safer
Speaker 2: than being out there in a scary world.
Speaker 3: Yes, But I also worry about privacy, and the New
Speaker 3: York Times kind of presented her with that because there's
Speaker 3: a lot of input that exists that if it was
Speaker 3: hacked or released, you'd be really embarrassed. You'd almost be
Speaker 3: more free and more willing to give parts of yourself
Speaker 3: to a robot because you think that they're not going
Speaker 3: to go out and talk to people. But I just
Speaker 3: under how long it's going to be before the robots
Speaker 3: start leaking.
Speaker 2: These robots are talking to everyone.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, In case you missed it, a pineapple flavored
Speaker 3: vaccine could be about to change the game for UTIs.
Speaker 3: One in two women will get a urinary tracked infection
Speaker 3: in their lifetime.
Speaker 4: Hands up if you've had one.
Speaker 1: Oh goodness, yes.
Speaker 4: As many as one in five will experience recurrent UTIs.
Speaker 4: That sounds like an issue you've had.
Speaker 1: Maya got a way after sex people, you do and
Speaker 1: wipe back.
Speaker 4: Front to back, good girl.
Speaker 3: They're caused by bacteria entering the urinary system, and while
Speaker 3: antibiotics are the go to treatment, there's a rise in
Speaker 3: antibiotic resistance for some women. Those recurrent uties can be
Speaker 3: really debilitating. So this vaccine, it's stored in the fridge,
Speaker 3: you spread under your tongue every day for three months. Currently,
Speaker 3: the vaccine doesn't have TGA approval, but it is available
Speaker 3: in Australia through special access programs.
Speaker 4: Maya, will you be getting this vaccine?
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I haven't had it for a long time.
Speaker 1: I tend to get it like my grains. I get
Speaker 1: it in clusters and That's quite common because once the
Speaker 1: lining of urethra is broken down, or you get an
Speaker 1: infection or it's irritated, you're very susceptible to getting more.
Speaker 1: So you can get stuck in this recurrence cycle and
Speaker 1: you can't get out of it. It's not an issue
Speaker 1: for me anymore, so I wouldn't get it, but earlier
Speaker 1: in my life I absolutely would have because it was
Speaker 1: so debilitating for me. It wasn't just like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: a bit stingy. It was literally blood clots and fevers
Speaker 1: and I would be so sick and I would never
Speaker 1: know when it was going to come on. And my
Speaker 1: mother was the same. She also had that issue. So
Speaker 1: I had no idea about this. I mean, it's not cheap,
Speaker 1: but you can if you talk to your doctor and
Speaker 1: you've got a history of recurrent infections, you might be
Speaker 1: able to get it. After the break, we are almost
Speaker 1: at the end of January, which means most people are
Speaker 1: back to work, and I have a question, have you
Speaker 1: cried yet?
Speaker 2: Unlimited out Loud access, we drop episodes every Tuesday on
Speaker 2: Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link of
Speaker 2: the show notes to get us in your ears five
Speaker 2: days a week, and a huge thank you to all
Speaker 2: our current subscribers.
Speaker 1: We're all back at work for twenty twenty five at
Speaker 1: least we are, and I need to know, Holly and Jesse,
Speaker 1: have you cried at work yet this year? No?
Speaker 3: I don't think I cried at work last year. I
Speaker 3: haven't cried in years at work.
Speaker 1: I cried twice yesterday. I did.
Speaker 2: I dont haven't cried at work yet, but I did
Speaker 2: cr at work last year. Once. It does happen, but
Speaker 2: very rare. I'm very infrequent crime.
Speaker 1: Only one of the times I cried yesterday was actually
Speaker 1: at work, and it wasn't at work, it was technically
Speaker 1: in my car anyway. A story was published in the
Speaker 1: Atlantic called Lean into Crying at Work last week, and
Speaker 1: it reveals something really interesting about tears in the workplace.
Speaker 1: The numbers are pretty clear. Forty one percent of women
Speaker 1: admit to crying at work, compared to just nine percent
Speaker 1: of men, and there is actually a biological reason for this.
Speaker 1: Women produce more of a hormone called prolactin that promotes crying,
Speaker 1: while men have more testosterone, which does the opposite. Here's
Speaker 1: a fun crying fact men have larger tear ducts than women,
Speaker 1: which means that their tears can pull without spelling over.
Speaker 4: I read something the other day. It was an Instagram graphic.
Speaker 4: Didn't fact check it.
Speaker 3: That the reason why you're crying impacts what your tears
Speaker 3: are made up of. Have you seen this No, so
Speaker 3: there's more or less salt depending on so if you're
Speaker 3: really I think it was saying something like grief, the
Speaker 3: tears will fall faster and more obviously down your face,
Speaker 3: which is evidence that we're social creatures.
Speaker 4: It's a way of attracting, like, wow, what about onions.
Speaker 1: Onions, I imagine are different types of tears less salty. Well,
Speaker 1: there's also a difference between how people perceive men and
Speaker 1: women differently when they cry at work. The research says
Speaker 1: that when men cry at work, people say things like
Speaker 1: something terrible must have happened, or it really humanizes him.
Speaker 1: I remember when former Prime Minister Bob Hawk cried in
Speaker 1: a press conference because his daughter was suffering from addiction,
Speaker 1: and everyone, because he was such a blokey guy, everyone
Speaker 1: was like, what a legend, But heaven forbid Julia Gillard
Speaker 1: ever cried. I don't think she ever did. When women
Speaker 1: cry of course, they're seen as unprofessional, manipulative, or proving
Speaker 1: the stereotype that they can't control their emotions. This is
Speaker 1: at work, of course. Here's what's interesting, though, some of
Speaker 1: the world's most powerful CEOs are actually trying to change
Speaker 1: this conversation. Howard Schultz from Starbucks says that crying can
Speaker 1: be a form of leadership transparency. Tim Cook from Apple
Speaker 1: and Sachia Nadella from Microsoft have both teared up during
Speaker 1: tough moments, and forty four percent of senior executives now
Speaker 1: say crying at work is occasionally acceptable. It can also
Speaker 1: really derail a meeting. And I say this from experiences
Speaker 1: both a crier and a boss, and a boss who
Speaker 1: was creeding meetings. There's a crying research who says people
Speaker 1: typically cry when they feel helpless or when they can't
Speaker 1: see a way to solve a problem. I'd agree with that.
Speaker 4: Do you think that Mark Zuckerberg is sending this around
Speaker 4: his group.
Speaker 1: Chats right now? I don't think that to support his theory.
Speaker 2: Here's like too much feminine energy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this is what's happened to the corporate workplace.
Speaker 2: I reckon that Tim Cook is taking back that statement
Speaker 2: right now. He's like, no, crying's crying.
Speaker 1: Well, that's what I want to ask, because with all
Speaker 1: this talk about bringing your whole self to work, which
Speaker 1: is very big at the moment, people working longer hours,
Speaker 1: and seventy nine percent of people say that they've experienced
Speaker 1: work stress in the past month, is there an acceptable
Speaker 1: way to cry at work? And what is the best
Speaker 1: way to recover if you do?
Speaker 4: Jesse, I don't have thoughts anymore. I just asked chat deputees.
Speaker 1: I've seen you cry at work. No, I'm professionally, you've
Speaker 1: seen me work.
Speaker 2: I've seen it really upset.
Speaker 1: Though.
Speaker 2: The thing is is that everyone has a different tear barrier, right,
Speaker 2: so I can tell when Jesse would be crying if
Speaker 2: she was a cry you know what I mean? So
Speaker 2: like she is in my mind, she's crying, Okay, it's.
Speaker 3: Just not tears, whereas you've got tears on your ankles
Speaker 3: from how hard you've been crying, and it's just.
Speaker 1: You don't have to translate when I'm trying because I
Speaker 1: am actually crying.
Speaker 3: I asked JPT what the rules are because I thought
Speaker 3: they would know, and they told me that you can
Speaker 3: quite work. That's fine, go to a private place I
Speaker 3: have to go to a private space. And of course,
Speaker 3: the reason I think that's true to an extent is
Speaker 3: it can be genuinely very distracting. And I say this
Speaker 3: as someone who's felt myself get there. There was one
Speaker 3: time at work years and years ago where I got
Speaker 3: terrible personal news and I immediately stood up, walked out,
Speaker 3: went to the park and cried on a bench alone.
Speaker 3: I don't think that was a tragic moment or or
Speaker 3: me feeling as though I wouldn't have been supported if
Speaker 3: I was at work.
Speaker 4: I just genuinely didn't want to attract attention.
Speaker 3: I think sometimes when you're really sad, like that you
Speaker 3: need to process something alone, you don't want to talk
Speaker 3: to people that you might not be that close to.
Speaker 1: Doing a pooh.
Speaker 2: And you also don't want lots and lots of people
Speaker 2: coming up to you and saying you okay, you okay,
Speaker 2: like if that's not what you want, not really speaking.
Speaker 2: I think there are exceptions to that, though, removing yourself
Speaker 2: because I'm a runner. If I cry, I'm definitely a runner.
Speaker 2: I'm out of there, I'm walking around the block, I'm
Speaker 2: in the bathroom or whatever. But I was a manager
Speaker 2: for many many, many, many years, and I have been
Speaker 2: in many rooms with crying people. Sometimes letting them get
Speaker 2: out of there is exactly what's needed. Sometimes letting them
Speaker 2: get through it is exactly what's needed, because the problem
Speaker 2: with the runaway is you don't resolve the problem, and
Speaker 2: the problem might not even be work related. Like often,
Speaker 2: when I was thinking about the last time I cried
Speaker 2: at work, it wasn't about work. It was because a
Speaker 2: conversation I was having at work made me mad with myself.
Speaker 2: And very often it's like I'm annoyed with the way
Speaker 2: I'm reacting. I'm annoyed with the way I'm talking. I'm
Speaker 2: annoyed with the fact I'm repeating a pattern, whatever it is,
Speaker 2: and that's what's making me cry. It's not as simple
Speaker 2: as the narrative as my boss made me cry, Like
Speaker 2: sometimes it is maybe a boss yelled at you, but
Speaker 2: it's like I cried because I was overwhelmed, or I
Speaker 2: cried because it triggered something in me, or I cried because.
Speaker 1: And then it becomes embarrassing.
Speaker 2: And sometimes the runaway isn't a good idea because it
Speaker 2: stops whatever needs to happen. And so I've been in
Speaker 2: situations with people where you've got to let them cry
Speaker 2: and keep the conversation going, especially if they're a crier.
Speaker 2: Like I've worked with people who because I don't cry
Speaker 2: very often, if they cry in front of me, I'd
Speaker 2: be like, oh my god, this must be the worst
Speaker 2: thing in the world. And then you get to know
Speaker 2: them and you realize, no, this is just one of
Speaker 2: their responses. They're a crier. Just let them get it
Speaker 2: out and they'll get through it and the conversation can
Speaker 2: keep going.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say, having been on both sides of it,
Speaker 1: you really should try not to cry at work. Like
Speaker 1: you shouldn't for all of these reasons, because I think
Speaker 1: what it does, and I'll put myself in the crying
Speaker 1: position when I've cried in you know, We've had meetings
Speaker 1: and I've cried in them because we've been having particularly
Speaker 1: intense art you know, not arguments, but conversations or about
Speaker 1: things that are very personal. And what's bad about it
Speaker 1: is that it really messes with the power dynamics of
Speaker 1: the room because as soon as you cry, it's like
Speaker 1: you've just pulled out the wild card. Everyone else has
Speaker 1: to back down, and you immediately take the power and
Speaker 1: the oxygen in the room. If you start crying and
Speaker 1: everyone else has to back off, and what I find
Speaker 1: is that they can then feel quite resentful. It can be.
Speaker 2: Quite silencing, a manipulative peace. Right when you were talking
Speaker 2: before about how some people think that crying at work
Speaker 2: is manipulative, and I guess a real stereotype is that
Speaker 2: men might think that, oh, she cried, so I had
Speaker 2: to stop asking out a blah.
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone means to cry. I think that's true.
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone ever goes. I know what I'll do.
Speaker 1: I'm going to cry now to get their sympathy. I
Speaker 1: honestly don't think that, but I think that that can
Speaker 1: be the result. Unless you're a monster. If someone's crying
Speaker 1: in front of you, of course you're going to back
Speaker 1: right off. And I think that we need to strengthen
Speaker 1: our resilience and also sometimes you do just need to
Speaker 1: go away and remove yourself from the situation. That's what
Speaker 1: I try to do. The thing with crying.
Speaker 2: Is so vulnerable and personal, it is one hundred percent.
Speaker 3: It can in a dynamic situate, whoever is crying in
Speaker 3: whatever context as the victim, and if you're the person
Speaker 3: who can't ever cry? You also want to say I
Speaker 3: feel strongly about this too. It's like I feel the
Speaker 3: most strong, and that way it can feel like almost competitive.
Speaker 4: And we've been in a meeting.
Speaker 1: Top of the leaderboard if you're crying.
Speaker 4: We've been in a meeting, mayor where you've cried.
Speaker 3: And I left feeling like a bully because I went
Speaker 3: I who didn't cry?
Speaker 4: And have I caused hurt?
Speaker 3: And then how do you put words around how you
Speaker 3: feel hurt if you're actually quite a monotone, even like
Speaker 3: I don't look like I've got, you know, skin in
Speaker 3: the game, or I've got a massive feeling about it.
Speaker 1: It's like whoever cries the most feeling whims. I didn't
Speaker 1: cry for maybe five years in any context, after I
Speaker 1: started taking medication for my anxiety, and it's quite a
Speaker 1: well known side effect of I don't know if it's
Speaker 1: all SSRIs or the one that I was on and
Speaker 1: I'm still on. I had blocked tears, stuck tears for
Speaker 1: maybe five years.
Speaker 3: I think I've got that. I think mine's probably medication related.
Speaker 1: And I just couldn't cry, and I found it a
Speaker 1: bit frustrating. Gosh, perimenopause blew through exactly.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's just overwhelmed or anger, like no question, and
Speaker 2: sometimes you want to like holding someone's hand while they
Speaker 2: cry is the thing to do, and sometimes setting them
Speaker 2: free to get the hell away from you the thing
Speaker 2: to do. I love a planned cry. I am literally
Speaker 2: going to go and see the Andrew Garfield movie so
Speaker 2: I can cry.
Speaker 1: Oh, the one with Florence Pure, the one that would feel.
Speaker 2: I love that kind of feeling of like ooh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people like watch The Notebook to just specifically have
Speaker 1: a good cry.
Speaker 2: Because I don't cry much in my real life, but
Speaker 2: I love that kind of cry. That's all we have
Speaker 2: time for today, out louders, I hope you're not crying
Speaker 2: at the end of this. I know it's been a
Speaker 2: funny old week. A massive thank you to all of
Speaker 2: you for being here with us, and to our wonderful
Speaker 2: team for helping us put it together in this whole
Speaker 2: new world. We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Before we go. We spoke about this earlier in the show,
Speaker 1: but if you want to understand what happened with Donald
Speaker 1: Trump's inauguration, with our special guest and friend of the Pods,
Speaker 1: Emelia lest our US correspondent. We sat down with her
Speaker 1: to talk about everything, and we wanted to play you
Speaker 1: some of that episode. Hello and Welcome to Hell. I'm
Speaker 1: just kidding, it's except you're not. The day of the inauguration,
Speaker 1: it feels a little dystopian. I will paint you a picture,
Speaker 1: beloved out louded subscribers, Amelia and I have been texting
Speaker 1: all morning since about six Amelia and Lester, by the way,
Speaker 1: is our guest today. It's me Holy and Amelia Jesse
Speaker 1: sitting in the corner. But we only have three microphones.
Speaker 2: Shout she could shout if she wants.
Speaker 1: The sound you can hear is her just quietly crying.
Speaker 1: Oh wait, that's me. Sorry. So Amelia, did you get
Speaker 1: up at four to start watching the inauguration? I didn't,
Speaker 1: But what was interesting? Well, Papa link in the show
Speaker 1: notes if you want to hear the rest.
Speaker 3: Bye, shout out to any Mum and MEA subscribers listening.
Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mom and Mia is the very best way
Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description
Speaker 2: To be be