1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,342 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:19,422 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hey. 4 00:00:19,381 --> 00:00:22,022 Speaker 1: Out louders, We know that some of you were waiting 5 00:00:22,342 --> 00:00:25,062 Speaker 1: for the calendar to turn over to twenty twenty five 6 00:00:25,102 --> 00:00:27,382 Speaker 1: before you bought your tickets. Not if you live in Perth, though, 7 00:00:27,542 --> 00:00:30,342 Speaker 1: those guys were fast. But we've released some more tickets 8 00:00:30,342 --> 00:00:33,862 Speaker 1: for our Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney shows. Twenty twenty five 9 00:00:34,062 --> 00:00:36,742 Speaker 1: is here and we can't wait to see you. Remember, 10 00:00:36,942 --> 00:00:39,101 Speaker 1: if you don't have anyone to come with, lots of 11 00:00:39,101 --> 00:00:41,742 Speaker 1: people come solo. There is a link in the show notes. 12 00:00:41,822 --> 00:00:43,102 Speaker 1: We would love to see you all. 13 00:00:45,062 --> 00:00:49,222 Speaker 3: As you say, it's like a safe place to explore fantasy. 14 00:00:49,502 --> 00:00:50,982 Speaker 1: It's like an emotional vibrator. 15 00:00:51,182 --> 00:00:55,022 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe we're like an accompaniment to an actual vibrator. 16 00:00:55,102 --> 00:00:55,182 Speaker 1: Hi. 17 00:00:55,342 --> 00:01:00,382 Speaker 2: Yeah, hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. It's 18 00:01:00,382 --> 00:01:03,342 Speaker 2: what women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the twenty 19 00:01:03,422 --> 00:01:07,702 Speaker 2: second of January, I am Holly Wainwright, I'm mea Friedman. 20 00:01:07,382 --> 00:01:08,462 Speaker 4: And I'm Jesse Steve. 21 00:01:08,661 --> 00:01:10,502 Speaker 1: She was very excited to be Hollyway night. 22 00:01:10,581 --> 00:01:13,702 Speaker 2: Today, I was still in our different studio right, We're 23 00:01:13,742 --> 00:01:16,862 Speaker 2: getting used to being filmed all the time, trying to 24 00:01:16,902 --> 00:01:18,622 Speaker 2: be like high energy. 25 00:01:19,622 --> 00:01:22,062 Speaker 3: Yeah. What's interesting is when we play grabs often we 26 00:01:22,102 --> 00:01:24,182 Speaker 3: all just pick our noses or something because we're like, 27 00:01:24,302 --> 00:01:26,502 Speaker 3: we're not on the mica. But the issue is that 28 00:01:26,622 --> 00:01:29,382 Speaker 3: now we're being filmed and the feedback is get your 29 00:01:29,382 --> 00:01:30,102 Speaker 3: finger out of your nose. 30 00:01:30,182 --> 00:01:34,502 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're watching trying hard sitting up straight anyway on 31 00:01:34,542 --> 00:01:38,222 Speaker 2: the show today, did he didn't he? Should we all 32 00:01:38,262 --> 00:01:41,301 Speaker 2: be looking the other way? Why everyone's talking about Elon 33 00:01:41,422 --> 00:01:45,702 Speaker 2: Musk's arms today? Also, some Australian women slept outside a 34 00:01:45,702 --> 00:01:49,142 Speaker 2: bookshop for their smut dose this week. Others are trying 35 00:01:49,142 --> 00:01:51,902 Speaker 2: to prompt their computers to talk dirty to them. Welcome 36 00:01:51,942 --> 00:01:55,782 Speaker 2: to Safe Sex twenty twenty five style, and good news 37 00:01:55,822 --> 00:01:57,102 Speaker 2: for you if you've just gone back to work and 38 00:01:57,142 --> 00:02:00,902 Speaker 2: absolutely everything is pissing you right off. Apparently it's now 39 00:02:00,942 --> 00:02:02,142 Speaker 2: good to cry at work. 40 00:02:02,622 --> 00:02:06,502 Speaker 1: But first, Hi, Donald John Trump, who solemn and square, 41 00:02:06,782 --> 00:02:10,542 Speaker 1: and I will faithfully execute the office of President of 42 00:02:10,582 --> 00:02:11,662 Speaker 1: the United States. 43 00:02:11,742 --> 00:02:15,101 Speaker 5: The Golden Age of America begins right now. We will 44 00:02:15,142 --> 00:02:17,582 Speaker 5: be the envy of every nation, and we will not 45 00:02:17,742 --> 00:02:22,382 Speaker 5: allow ourselves to be taken advantage of any longer. During 46 00:02:22,422 --> 00:02:26,661 Speaker 5: every single day of the Trump administration, I will very 47 00:02:26,702 --> 00:02:32,822 Speaker 5: simply put America first. I will declare a national emergency 48 00:02:33,022 --> 00:02:38,382 Speaker 5: at our southern border. All illegal entry will immediately be halted, 49 00:02:38,582 --> 00:02:42,022 Speaker 5: and we will begin the process of returning millions and 50 00:02:42,222 --> 00:02:46,102 Speaker 5: millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which 51 00:02:46,181 --> 00:02:50,662 Speaker 5: they came. As of today, it will henceforth be the 52 00:02:50,662 --> 00:02:54,022 Speaker 5: official policy of the United States government that there are 53 00:02:54,181 --> 00:02:58,982 Speaker 5: only two genders, male and female. And we will pursue 54 00:02:59,022 --> 00:03:03,782 Speaker 5: our manifest destiny into the stars, launching American astronauts to 55 00:03:03,902 --> 00:03:07,342 Speaker 5: plant the stars and stripes on the planet Mars. 56 00:03:08,742 --> 00:03:11,582 Speaker 3: If you are not in the weeds of US politics 57 00:03:11,822 --> 00:03:15,422 Speaker 3: the inauguration, how many billionaire tech bros were standing like 58 00:03:15,502 --> 00:03:20,422 Speaker 3: some sort of gospel choir alongside Trump yesterday? Neither but inevitably, 59 00:03:20,702 --> 00:03:23,501 Speaker 3: the biggest news in the world yesterday was that Donald 60 00:03:23,502 --> 00:03:26,622 Speaker 3: Trump was sworn in as the forty seventh president of 61 00:03:26,662 --> 00:03:31,181 Speaker 3: the United States. Well, that was meant to be the headline, 62 00:03:31,462 --> 00:03:34,622 Speaker 3: but the biggest media story from my vantage point was 63 00:03:34,622 --> 00:03:37,622 Speaker 3: a now viral image of what looked to be the 64 00:03:37,742 --> 00:03:41,622 Speaker 3: richest man in the world, Elon Musk, doing a hitless salute. 65 00:03:42,222 --> 00:03:44,182 Speaker 3: If you want to hear a breakdown of what happened 66 00:03:44,182 --> 00:03:46,822 Speaker 3: from Trump's speech to Milania's hat Mayor and Holly sat 67 00:03:46,862 --> 00:03:51,142 Speaker 3: down with Amelia Lesta for yesterday's Subscribe episode and analyze 68 00:03:51,142 --> 00:03:51,782 Speaker 3: the event. 69 00:03:51,542 --> 00:03:52,702 Speaker 4: In forensic detail. 70 00:03:53,382 --> 00:03:56,822 Speaker 3: But back to allegations of a salute on a podium 71 00:03:56,862 --> 00:04:00,382 Speaker 3: in Washington's Capital One Arena. Musked thanked the crowd, and 72 00:04:00,422 --> 00:04:03,942 Speaker 3: then he extended his arm outward and diagonally towards the audience, 73 00:04:04,502 --> 00:04:07,982 Speaker 3: palm down, arm straight. Then he turned one hundred and 74 00:04:08,062 --> 00:04:12,262 Speaker 3: eighty degrees and did the same. The resounding question became, 75 00:04:12,582 --> 00:04:15,462 Speaker 3: did Mask just do a Nazi salute or was it 76 00:04:15,502 --> 00:04:19,501 Speaker 3: an awkward gesture of enthusiasm. One corner of the Internet 77 00:04:19,582 --> 00:04:24,462 Speaker 3: said absolutely Nazi salute. Democratic congress people and historians of 78 00:04:24,462 --> 00:04:26,822 Speaker 3: fascism were among people. 79 00:04:26,621 --> 00:04:28,621 Speaker 4: Who argued that that is what they saw. 80 00:04:29,181 --> 00:04:32,622 Speaker 3: The Anti Defamation League, however, one of the most prominent 81 00:04:32,702 --> 00:04:36,501 Speaker 3: organizations dedicated to opposing anti Semitism. 82 00:04:36,501 --> 00:04:38,541 Speaker 4: Said that is not what they saw. 83 00:04:39,381 --> 00:04:42,581 Speaker 3: They released a statement that said, it seems that Elon 84 00:04:42,702 --> 00:04:45,462 Speaker 3: Musk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, 85 00:04:45,782 --> 00:04:49,101 Speaker 3: not a Nazi salute. But again, we appreciate that people 86 00:04:49,181 --> 00:04:52,582 Speaker 3: are on edge they argued for grace and benefit of 87 00:04:52,621 --> 00:04:54,702 Speaker 3: the doubt, which we will come back to. 88 00:04:55,501 --> 00:04:57,501 Speaker 4: So what has Musk said? Well? 89 00:04:57,662 --> 00:05:01,342 Speaker 3: An ex user tweeted, can we please retire the calling 90 00:05:01,381 --> 00:05:06,141 Speaker 3: people a Nazi thing, which Musk responded to with yeah exactly, 91 00:05:06,181 --> 00:05:07,702 Speaker 3: followed by a yawning emoji. 92 00:05:08,061 --> 00:05:10,021 Speaker 4: He also re shared a mon you. 93 00:05:10,061 --> 00:05:13,861 Speaker 3: Might have seen this of photos with Clinton Obama Paris 94 00:05:14,181 --> 00:05:16,621 Speaker 3: or with their arms up in what looks like a salute, 95 00:05:16,621 --> 00:05:19,822 Speaker 3: with the comment the legacy media is pure propaganda. 96 00:05:20,101 --> 00:05:23,021 Speaker 4: You are the media now, Maya. 97 00:05:23,142 --> 00:05:26,181 Speaker 3: You said on yesterday's episode that what you saw was 98 00:05:26,222 --> 00:05:29,541 Speaker 3: a clear nod to Nazism. What do you think was 99 00:05:29,582 --> 00:05:31,541 Speaker 3: his actual intention behind it? 100 00:05:31,981 --> 00:05:36,141 Speaker 1: We'll never know. Only he knows his intention. Do I 101 00:05:36,222 --> 00:05:38,541 Speaker 1: believe that he went, you know what I'm going to 102 00:05:38,582 --> 00:05:43,662 Speaker 1: do now give a Nazi salute? Probably not, but in 103 00:05:43,702 --> 00:05:47,822 Speaker 1: some ways, and I'm always for intention is so important. 104 00:05:48,782 --> 00:05:52,101 Speaker 1: I think intention is a factor here. But I think 105 00:05:52,142 --> 00:05:56,301 Speaker 1: there are some things that we learn that if everybody, 106 00:05:56,541 --> 00:06:00,382 Speaker 1: or if a lot of people misunderstand you, then perhaps 107 00:06:00,462 --> 00:06:04,262 Speaker 1: you haven't communicated very well. And I think if I 108 00:06:04,342 --> 00:06:08,581 Speaker 1: pointed to the ceiling with my middle finger and you said, 109 00:06:08,582 --> 00:06:10,981 Speaker 1: why are you giving me the bird? And I said, 110 00:06:11,022 --> 00:06:13,902 Speaker 1: oh no, I'm just pointing to the ceiling. I would 111 00:06:13,981 --> 00:06:16,021 Speaker 1: have to think about the fact that maybe I should 112 00:06:16,022 --> 00:06:18,021 Speaker 1: have done that with a different gesture. What's interesting is 113 00:06:18,022 --> 00:06:19,941 Speaker 1: that he hasn't come out and said, no, it wasn't 114 00:06:20,541 --> 00:06:23,782 Speaker 1: and Nazism is terrible John to make this about me, 115 00:06:23,861 --> 00:06:27,622 Speaker 1: But as a Jewish person, I was very thrown by 116 00:06:27,621 --> 00:06:30,621 Speaker 1: watching that video. I saw the still and before we 117 00:06:30,662 --> 00:06:32,582 Speaker 1: recorded the episode yesterday, I was like, I've got to 118 00:06:32,582 --> 00:06:34,302 Speaker 1: see the video. I got a scene in context when 119 00:06:34,342 --> 00:06:36,501 Speaker 1: everyone said and I know some Jewish people who said 120 00:06:36,501 --> 00:06:39,182 Speaker 1: they didn't see that as well, and then when everyone says, oh, no, 121 00:06:39,222 --> 00:06:42,221 Speaker 1: it wasn't that it does feel a bit like gas lighting. 122 00:06:42,381 --> 00:06:43,861 Speaker 1: But I also don't want to fall into the trap 123 00:06:43,902 --> 00:06:46,782 Speaker 1: of going, oh, a Nazi salute, because I can't do 124 00:06:46,861 --> 00:06:48,821 Speaker 1: this for four years again. 125 00:06:49,222 --> 00:06:51,942 Speaker 3: It was interesting, right because even with the Anti Defamation 126 00:06:52,061 --> 00:06:54,101 Speaker 3: League saying we've got to give him some grace and 127 00:06:54,142 --> 00:06:55,222 Speaker 3: some benefit of fast. 128 00:06:55,022 --> 00:06:57,021 Speaker 1: And they've clashed with him a lot. He's tried to 129 00:06:57,061 --> 00:06:59,662 Speaker 1: sue them because they've complained about anti Semitism on the 130 00:06:59,821 --> 00:07:03,061 Speaker 1: X platform, and Elon Musk has said he's personally tried 131 00:07:03,101 --> 00:07:05,942 Speaker 1: to sue the Anti Defamation League. So they're not fans 132 00:07:05,941 --> 00:07:06,541 Speaker 1: of Musk. 133 00:07:06,421 --> 00:07:09,181 Speaker 3: Because I'm always for benefit of the doubt, right, Yeah, 134 00:07:09,181 --> 00:07:12,262 Speaker 3: but I find it difficult to give someone grace when 135 00:07:12,302 --> 00:07:15,702 Speaker 3: we know about Musk's history. So there is a whole 136 00:07:16,102 --> 00:07:20,021 Speaker 3: story unfolding with the far right in Germany at the moment, 137 00:07:20,062 --> 00:07:22,342 Speaker 3: and Musk is a big player in that story. He's 138 00:07:22,422 --> 00:07:26,182 Speaker 3: endorsing their far right political party where members have documented 139 00:07:26,222 --> 00:07:29,102 Speaker 3: ties to neo Nazis. So I don't know why would 140 00:07:29,102 --> 00:07:30,702 Speaker 3: be given him grace when that's just like the back. 141 00:07:30,862 --> 00:07:34,381 Speaker 2: It's also fueling a lot of anti immigrant discourse in 142 00:07:34,422 --> 00:07:38,262 Speaker 2: the UK and publicly backing far right figures in the UK, 143 00:07:38,662 --> 00:07:41,302 Speaker 2: and they're very strong anti Islamic stance. 144 00:07:41,582 --> 00:07:44,742 Speaker 4: Steve Bannon has called him racist. 145 00:07:44,782 --> 00:07:47,862 Speaker 1: And Steve Bannon calls you racist. It's not true, Advisor. 146 00:07:47,941 --> 00:07:48,662 Speaker 1: That's troubling. 147 00:07:48,742 --> 00:07:52,742 Speaker 3: He's endorsed post about the great Replacement conspiracy theory. Again 148 00:07:52,782 --> 00:07:57,622 Speaker 3: the anti Semitic tweets like this isn't a total one off, Holly, 149 00:07:57,662 --> 00:07:59,182 Speaker 3: what do you think his intention was? 150 00:07:59,502 --> 00:08:01,622 Speaker 2: I have no idea. Well, actually I do, I do 151 00:08:01,782 --> 00:08:07,341 Speaker 2: know what his intention was exactly. This chaos, confusion, panic. 152 00:08:07,941 --> 00:08:10,302 Speaker 2: I think one of the things that's really hard at 153 00:08:10,302 --> 00:08:13,262 Speaker 2: the moment and is going to be the challenge for 154 00:08:13,302 --> 00:08:15,742 Speaker 2: the next four years for anyone who I'm not going 155 00:08:15,782 --> 00:08:17,502 Speaker 2: to say the left or whatever. I'm going to say 156 00:08:17,662 --> 00:08:21,502 Speaker 2: people who aren't thrilled about the way the Trump oligarchy 157 00:08:21,582 --> 00:08:26,542 Speaker 2: is playing out. Is we're constantly being told be cool, right. 158 00:08:27,182 --> 00:08:28,862 Speaker 2: They love it when the Libs have got their hair 159 00:08:28,902 --> 00:08:31,701 Speaker 2: on fire. They want to provoke you. They want to 160 00:08:31,742 --> 00:08:34,422 Speaker 2: get everybody saying it's Nazis, it's the end of the world. 161 00:08:34,502 --> 00:08:38,662 Speaker 2: They're dismantling democracy so that you sound like hysterical crazy people. 162 00:08:39,381 --> 00:08:42,222 Speaker 2: So we're constantly being told be cool, right, don't give 163 00:08:42,222 --> 00:08:45,742 Speaker 2: it your attention, deep breaths, look away. But that is 164 00:08:45,822 --> 00:08:49,422 Speaker 2: incredibly hard to do when one of the most powerful, 165 00:08:49,462 --> 00:08:52,342 Speaker 2: if not the most powerful person on the planet right now, 166 00:08:52,742 --> 00:08:57,342 Speaker 2: is at the very least playing with the imagery of Nazism. Right, 167 00:08:58,102 --> 00:09:00,622 Speaker 2: we can't necessarily be inside his brain and say what 168 00:09:00,702 --> 00:09:02,862 Speaker 2: he was doing, but he was playing with it and 169 00:09:03,342 --> 00:09:06,182 Speaker 2: it can be interpreted that way. So it starts this 170 00:09:06,262 --> 00:09:10,342 Speaker 2: conversation and so be cool, I don't give your attention. 171 00:09:10,462 --> 00:09:12,782 Speaker 2: Is very hard. I watched me A's reaction to that yesterday. 172 00:09:12,902 --> 00:09:15,022 Speaker 2: It's really hard. I think about the other groups who 173 00:09:15,022 --> 00:09:18,862 Speaker 2: are affected. Yesterday by Trump's speech where he's sitting next 174 00:09:18,902 --> 00:09:22,062 Speaker 2: to Harris and Biden and Obama and whoever, and he's 175 00:09:22,102 --> 00:09:24,261 Speaker 2: just saying, these people have been terrible at their jobs. 176 00:09:24,302 --> 00:09:26,462 Speaker 2: I'm going to fix everything. And then I'm imagining how 177 00:09:26,462 --> 00:09:29,262 Speaker 2: I would feel if I was waiting for my immigration 178 00:09:29,342 --> 00:09:31,702 Speaker 2: appointment in America and it's just been canceled on an 179 00:09:31,702 --> 00:09:33,822 Speaker 2: app on my phone. If I was a transperson who's 180 00:09:33,862 --> 00:09:37,102 Speaker 2: just been told I don't exist, if I was any 181 00:09:37,142 --> 00:09:39,342 Speaker 2: one of the suades of people who has a job 182 00:09:39,382 --> 00:09:41,582 Speaker 2: that now I'm being told I probably just got because 183 00:09:41,662 --> 00:09:45,462 Speaker 2: of diversity, and I'll lose that tomorrow. It's very hard 184 00:09:45,462 --> 00:09:48,462 Speaker 2: for everyone to be cool. But at the same time, 185 00:09:48,942 --> 00:09:51,942 Speaker 2: we've got to figure out what that is, because it's 186 00:09:52,022 --> 00:09:55,222 Speaker 2: like we only have our attention and we've got to 187 00:09:55,222 --> 00:09:58,262 Speaker 2: spend it wisely. And this what Mia often describes as 188 00:09:58,262 --> 00:10:01,182 Speaker 2: and an attention economy. You've got to be careful about 189 00:10:01,182 --> 00:10:04,502 Speaker 2: how you spend your chips. Right, Is this like a 190 00:10:04,622 --> 00:10:06,742 Speaker 2: let them moment mea I don't know, what do you think? 191 00:10:06,902 --> 00:10:09,502 Speaker 1: I agree with all of that, And I'm so tall 192 00:10:09,622 --> 00:10:12,422 Speaker 1: and because part of me is I've got to find 193 00:10:12,462 --> 00:10:15,822 Speaker 1: a way to let them apply because it just feels exhausting, 194 00:10:15,902 --> 00:10:17,582 Speaker 1: you know, and we don't even live there. But it's 195 00:10:17,622 --> 00:10:21,462 Speaker 1: more just like the absolute dominance of Trump and these 196 00:10:21,542 --> 00:10:25,382 Speaker 1: men across our culture, not just across American politics. But 197 00:10:25,542 --> 00:10:28,381 Speaker 1: then I'm like, well, what about the standard you walk past? 198 00:10:28,462 --> 00:10:31,502 Speaker 1: Is the standard you accept? Are we just being calibrated? 199 00:10:31,582 --> 00:10:33,422 Speaker 1: So he does a Nazi salute, he says, oh, it 200 00:10:33,422 --> 00:10:36,102 Speaker 1: wasn't really a Nazi salute. And then the next person 201 00:10:36,102 --> 00:10:38,382 Speaker 1: that does a Nazi salute, well, then it probably won't 202 00:10:38,422 --> 00:10:40,982 Speaker 1: make news because remember, Elon got away with it, so 203 00:10:41,022 --> 00:10:42,062 Speaker 1: it emboldens the next. 204 00:10:41,982 --> 00:10:45,302 Speaker 4: Person, and is it trying to make liberals or leftist. 205 00:10:45,022 --> 00:10:47,222 Speaker 1: Or whatever things get normalized, sort of like the. 206 00:10:47,182 --> 00:10:49,342 Speaker 4: Boy who Cried Wolf with fascism? 207 00:10:49,502 --> 00:10:53,302 Speaker 3: Right, because this has been said since Trump was first inaugurated, 208 00:10:53,382 --> 00:10:56,862 Speaker 3: Like the comparisons have been made. There's a brilliant Ezra 209 00:10:56,942 --> 00:10:59,382 Speaker 3: Cline episode that Holly got me onto this week about 210 00:10:59,462 --> 00:11:03,422 Speaker 3: attention and I've heard this described as the attentional regime, 211 00:11:03,942 --> 00:11:06,982 Speaker 3: and that made me think that what Elon was doing, I. 212 00:11:06,902 --> 00:11:07,742 Speaker 4: Don't think that that. 213 00:11:08,822 --> 00:11:13,342 Speaker 3: I obviously hope that that gesture wasn't as loaded as 214 00:11:13,342 --> 00:11:18,222 Speaker 3: it might look, but I think it intentionally was used 215 00:11:18,422 --> 00:11:21,742 Speaker 3: to trigger to court attention. 216 00:11:22,102 --> 00:11:24,062 Speaker 4: And it was a trick. It was a trick. 217 00:11:24,142 --> 00:11:26,542 Speaker 3: It was like a trap for the mainstream media to go, 218 00:11:26,582 --> 00:11:28,862 Speaker 3: come on, I dare you, and guess what we all did. 219 00:11:29,462 --> 00:11:32,902 Speaker 3: That image was shared, it was put on steroids, and 220 00:11:33,022 --> 00:11:35,622 Speaker 3: he courted all the attention yet again. 221 00:11:35,662 --> 00:11:38,302 Speaker 4: And what this episode about that he won't. 222 00:11:38,342 --> 00:11:40,462 Speaker 2: But also the interesting thing about that, Jesse is I 223 00:11:40,502 --> 00:11:43,102 Speaker 2: think you could see in the immediate aftermath some of 224 00:11:43,182 --> 00:11:46,302 Speaker 2: what they would call the mainstream lame stream media trying 225 00:11:46,342 --> 00:11:49,102 Speaker 2: not to fall into the trap. We noticed early on 226 00:11:49,142 --> 00:11:51,141 Speaker 2: that a lot of the headlines and discourse around it 227 00:11:51,182 --> 00:11:54,142 Speaker 2: were very cautious hand gesture. Yeah, and they weren't all 228 00:11:54,142 --> 00:11:56,502 Speaker 2: setting the hand fire, because I think everybody's trying to 229 00:11:56,542 --> 00:11:59,822 Speaker 2: be caught because we're getting wise about this attention economy 230 00:11:59,822 --> 00:12:01,462 Speaker 2: and we need to be very mindful of it because 231 00:12:01,462 --> 00:12:04,742 Speaker 2: we're about to head into an election cycle here. And 232 00:12:05,382 --> 00:12:07,622 Speaker 2: what is very clear, if nothing else from Trump two 233 00:12:07,622 --> 00:12:09,422 Speaker 2: point zero is none of the old rules apply in 234 00:12:09,622 --> 00:12:13,462 Speaker 2: terms of political communication. Attention is everything, So those are 235 00:12:13,502 --> 00:12:15,862 Speaker 2: all going to be applied here too. How do you 236 00:12:15,942 --> 00:12:18,742 Speaker 2: not fall into a trap while not walking past the standard. 237 00:12:19,262 --> 00:12:23,862 Speaker 1: I actually don't think that it was calculated. I actually 238 00:12:23,942 --> 00:12:29,422 Speaker 1: think he was clearly very very elevated, like off his chops, 239 00:12:29,542 --> 00:12:33,782 Speaker 1: either in the atmosphere of being on that stage, you know, 240 00:12:33,862 --> 00:12:38,102 Speaker 1: the energy whatever. He was very elevated, you would say. 241 00:12:38,742 --> 00:12:41,582 Speaker 1: And I think that what can happen to some people 242 00:12:41,982 --> 00:12:44,902 Speaker 1: is that your inhibitions fall away and you can behave 243 00:12:45,222 --> 00:12:48,022 Speaker 1: quite radically, and your true colors can sort of come 244 00:12:48,022 --> 00:12:50,141 Speaker 1: out in those moments. And I'm inclined to think of 245 00:12:50,182 --> 00:12:53,542 Speaker 1: John Galliano, the fashion designer for Dior, who lost his 246 00:12:53,662 --> 00:12:56,182 Speaker 1: job and lost his reputation because he was drunk in 247 00:12:56,222 --> 00:12:59,302 Speaker 1: a bar and he started making these antisemitic slurs at 248 00:12:59,342 --> 00:13:02,742 Speaker 1: these people who he was having an argument with and 249 00:13:02,782 --> 00:13:04,582 Speaker 1: that thing of but I was drunk, and then of 250 00:13:04,582 --> 00:13:06,582 Speaker 1: course he went into rehab, and I think it was 251 00:13:06,622 --> 00:13:08,222 Speaker 1: a bit like that. It's like, I think what it 252 00:13:08,302 --> 00:13:12,702 Speaker 1: reveals in that moment is who he admires, either overtly 253 00:13:12,822 --> 00:13:15,902 Speaker 1: or subconsciously. We know that Donald Trump is a big 254 00:13:15,902 --> 00:13:20,382 Speaker 1: fan of autocratic leaders and sort of fascist adjacent leaders 255 00:13:20,382 --> 00:13:24,902 Speaker 1: like Putin, like Bolsonaro in Brazil, Ergodon, who is the 256 00:13:24,982 --> 00:13:28,502 Speaker 1: leader in Turkey, and I think mosque, as you said before, 257 00:13:28,582 --> 00:13:31,782 Speaker 1: about his interference in right wing German politics and stuff. 258 00:13:32,422 --> 00:13:35,182 Speaker 1: They all think that these guys are great because they 259 00:13:35,222 --> 00:13:37,942 Speaker 1: are not accountable to anyone. They've got complete power, and 260 00:13:38,062 --> 00:13:42,102 Speaker 1: Hitler falls into that, so he's clearly familiar with that iconography. 261 00:13:42,222 --> 00:13:46,022 Speaker 3: It was an image of leadership that he clearly wanted 262 00:13:46,062 --> 00:13:49,822 Speaker 3: to evoke. And he is a free speech absolutist, which 263 00:13:49,902 --> 00:13:52,542 Speaker 3: we know that's been something he's talked about a lot, 264 00:13:52,942 --> 00:13:55,662 Speaker 3: and free speech pundits. There are two things they love 265 00:13:55,702 --> 00:13:56,582 Speaker 3: to do more than anything. 266 00:13:56,622 --> 00:13:57,902 Speaker 4: The first is not always a. 267 00:13:57,902 --> 00:14:00,342 Speaker 1: Free speech pundit, because if anyone criticizes him, he kicks 268 00:14:00,342 --> 00:14:01,302 Speaker 1: them off his platform. 269 00:14:01,822 --> 00:14:04,502 Speaker 3: That's true, but that's been his excuse for heralding in 270 00:14:04,822 --> 00:14:06,822 Speaker 3: That's why X is now you can't even go on 271 00:14:06,862 --> 00:14:10,022 Speaker 3: it because it's just so full of hate. But the 272 00:14:10,062 --> 00:14:12,902 Speaker 3: first thing they love to do is evoke any imagery 273 00:14:12,902 --> 00:14:15,942 Speaker 3: of Nazism because people say you can't. And the second 274 00:14:16,062 --> 00:14:17,942 Speaker 3: is use the N word like they're the two things 275 00:14:17,942 --> 00:14:20,102 Speaker 3: that you do, and it's like I don't even think it, 276 00:14:20,142 --> 00:14:22,622 Speaker 3: I just I can. And even yesterday I went and 277 00:14:22,662 --> 00:14:25,062 Speaker 3: had a look at what he'd been retweeting, and there 278 00:14:25,102 --> 00:14:27,382 Speaker 3: was a tweet with the R word in it, and 279 00:14:27,862 --> 00:14:31,782 Speaker 3: again that's about taking our attention but also going I 280 00:14:32,022 --> 00:14:35,102 Speaker 3: can just try and stop me. I think that was 281 00:14:35,142 --> 00:14:37,422 Speaker 3: probably behind what we saw yesterday. 282 00:14:37,862 --> 00:14:39,662 Speaker 1: They're all high on their own supply, and they have 283 00:14:39,902 --> 00:14:42,862 Speaker 1: every right to be because they are the rulers of 284 00:14:42,862 --> 00:14:44,782 Speaker 1: the world at the moment. That's what was so chilling 285 00:14:44,822 --> 00:14:45,302 Speaker 1: about it. 286 00:14:46,062 --> 00:14:49,422 Speaker 2: In a moment, women are sleeping outside bookshops all over 287 00:14:49,422 --> 00:14:51,862 Speaker 2: the world to get their hands on the latest installment 288 00:14:51,862 --> 00:14:59,982 Speaker 2: of Fairy Smart. What does it say about us? Feedback 289 00:15:00,102 --> 00:15:02,782 Speaker 2: is a gift from both the perspective of the giver 290 00:15:03,102 --> 00:15:04,222 Speaker 2: as well as the recipient. 291 00:15:05,982 --> 00:15:08,822 Speaker 1: I have a small bit of feedback today's feedback. Something 292 00:15:08,822 --> 00:15:11,102 Speaker 1: that makes me turn into a pufferfish because it annoys 293 00:15:11,102 --> 00:15:14,582 Speaker 1: me so much is when you're talking to someone and 294 00:15:14,622 --> 00:15:17,342 Speaker 1: they say, I've just let me show you this funny 295 00:15:17,342 --> 00:15:19,062 Speaker 1: meme or I just need to show you a photo, 296 00:15:19,462 --> 00:15:21,662 Speaker 1: and you have to stand there while they scroll back 297 00:15:21,702 --> 00:15:25,382 Speaker 1: through their emails all through their camera roll. I don't 298 00:15:25,382 --> 00:15:28,342 Speaker 1: know what to do because it feels when I'm standing there, 299 00:15:29,182 --> 00:15:30,502 Speaker 1: I want to just pick up my phone and just 300 00:15:30,502 --> 00:15:31,942 Speaker 1: look at my phone, because you meant. 301 00:15:31,782 --> 00:15:33,502 Speaker 3: To look over their shoulder at their phone. Because it 302 00:15:33,502 --> 00:15:35,982 Speaker 3: feels private, so you just kind of look out into 303 00:15:36,022 --> 00:15:37,422 Speaker 3: the distance with your hands behind it. 304 00:15:37,342 --> 00:15:39,342 Speaker 1: And you can't keep talking because you know if you 305 00:15:39,422 --> 00:15:41,782 Speaker 1: talk to them, they'll lose focus and it'll take longer. 306 00:15:42,222 --> 00:15:45,422 Speaker 1: And so you're just standing and they're consumed in they're scrolling, 307 00:15:46,022 --> 00:15:47,382 Speaker 1: and I don't know what to do. 308 00:15:47,542 --> 00:15:50,142 Speaker 4: Have you ever found what they come up with and 309 00:15:50,182 --> 00:15:50,622 Speaker 4: show you? 310 00:15:50,702 --> 00:15:53,342 Speaker 1: They're really find it fine, but they also really find it. 311 00:15:53,462 --> 00:15:54,182 Speaker 4: They don't worry. 312 00:15:54,222 --> 00:15:57,942 Speaker 1: Invariably after about sixty seconds, they'll say, oh, I can't 313 00:15:57,942 --> 00:15:58,582 Speaker 1: find it. 314 00:15:58,662 --> 00:16:00,262 Speaker 3: Or they get up a video and they show you 315 00:16:00,262 --> 00:16:01,822 Speaker 3: the video, which is always like two and a half 316 00:16:01,822 --> 00:16:04,342 Speaker 3: minutes long, and then you're arranging your face in a 317 00:16:04,422 --> 00:16:08,542 Speaker 3: way that says moderately ha ha. 318 00:16:09,782 --> 00:16:11,622 Speaker 4: It's never satisfying. 319 00:16:11,022 --> 00:16:13,662 Speaker 2: Looking at other people's phones is weird, isn't it. My 320 00:16:13,822 --> 00:16:15,742 Speaker 2: daughter always wants to show me things on her phone, 321 00:16:15,742 --> 00:16:18,422 Speaker 2: but she will not let me hold the phone, which 322 00:16:18,502 --> 00:16:20,782 Speaker 2: is obvious because she thinks if my finger slips, I'll 323 00:16:20,782 --> 00:16:22,942 Speaker 2: see something that I'll tell her all for yeah, so 324 00:16:23,022 --> 00:16:25,582 Speaker 2: she'll like put the phone near me. But obviously I've 325 00:16:25,622 --> 00:16:27,862 Speaker 2: got eyes that take a while to work out where 326 00:16:27,862 --> 00:16:30,622 Speaker 2: I'm focusing, and it's just not good. Other people's phones. 327 00:16:31,142 --> 00:16:31,702 Speaker 2: Just send it. 328 00:16:32,542 --> 00:16:34,702 Speaker 1: I just finished on ex Storm. M hmm. 329 00:16:35,022 --> 00:16:37,982 Speaker 3: I just finished on ex Storm, and words cannot begin 330 00:16:38,062 --> 00:16:41,422 Speaker 3: to describe what I am feeling and thinking right now. 331 00:16:41,902 --> 00:16:42,982 Speaker 4: Easy five stars. 332 00:16:43,182 --> 00:16:45,502 Speaker 2: Shout out to all the out louders who are hiding 333 00:16:45,542 --> 00:16:50,102 Speaker 2: under their doners today reading on Xstorm, the latest book 334 00:16:50,262 --> 00:16:53,622 Speaker 2: from the Fourth Wing phenomenon. Rebecca Yaros, if you have 335 00:16:53,782 --> 00:16:56,622 Speaker 2: no idea what I'm talking about in any of those words, 336 00:16:56,662 --> 00:16:59,182 Speaker 2: just then it's safe to say that you were not 337 00:16:59,462 --> 00:17:02,262 Speaker 2: camped outside a bookshop at midnight on Monday to be 338 00:17:02,342 --> 00:17:04,302 Speaker 2: one of the first to buy the latest in the 339 00:17:04,382 --> 00:17:06,942 Speaker 2: so called and some people get upset about it being 340 00:17:06,942 --> 00:17:09,341 Speaker 2: called this so apologies if you're listening and you're one 341 00:17:09,382 --> 00:17:13,542 Speaker 2: of them, the fairy smart genre. So the Fourth Wing 342 00:17:13,661 --> 00:17:16,381 Speaker 2: series is not the same as the Court and Thorn 343 00:17:16,422 --> 00:17:19,701 Speaker 2: and Roses series, but it's the same vibe, right, So, 344 00:17:19,782 --> 00:17:24,421 Speaker 2: Rebecca Yaros writes Fourth Wing books, they're what they call romanticy, 345 00:17:24,621 --> 00:17:25,741 Speaker 2: which is very smart. 346 00:17:25,942 --> 00:17:28,182 Speaker 3: Last time I checked, though, she was one and two 347 00:17:28,222 --> 00:17:30,101 Speaker 3: on the New York Times person She's like. 348 00:17:30,141 --> 00:17:33,862 Speaker 2: Huge, right, So here's the thing she writes those books. 349 00:17:34,381 --> 00:17:37,502 Speaker 2: Sarah J. Mass writes The Court and Thought of Roses. 350 00:17:37,661 --> 00:17:39,982 Speaker 2: They are both incredibly successful. 351 00:17:40,141 --> 00:17:42,422 Speaker 1: So is it like Fifty Shades but with fairy So. 352 00:17:42,581 --> 00:17:44,661 Speaker 2: Without wanting to get too into it, right, this is 353 00:17:44,661 --> 00:17:47,381 Speaker 2: the third in her installment that's all set in like 354 00:17:47,462 --> 00:17:50,341 Speaker 2: an academy where you learn how to be a dragon writer, 355 00:17:50,661 --> 00:17:54,262 Speaker 2: right in a strict military way. So, and then sex 356 00:17:54,302 --> 00:17:56,182 Speaker 2: with the dragons. We don't have sex with the dragons, 357 00:17:56,182 --> 00:18:00,262 Speaker 2: but there is lots of sex and romance and sexual tension. 358 00:18:00,422 --> 00:18:02,061 Speaker 2: Who has sex. They all have. 359 00:18:02,101 --> 00:18:04,262 Speaker 1: Sex with each other, but not the dragons. 360 00:18:04,302 --> 00:18:06,061 Speaker 2: I don't think that. I don't know if people have 361 00:18:06,101 --> 00:18:08,141 Speaker 2: sex with the dragons. I haven't read all this, but 362 00:18:08,182 --> 00:18:11,221 Speaker 2: there's a lot of sex, right, sexual tension. So I 363 00:18:11,222 --> 00:18:13,341 Speaker 2: think the young woman who's the focus of this, she's 364 00:18:13,381 --> 00:18:16,861 Speaker 2: called Violet, has like a very intense love affair with 365 00:18:16,942 --> 00:18:21,341 Speaker 2: somebody there. So it's like Twilight meets Harry Potter. Stir 366 00:18:21,422 --> 00:18:24,461 Speaker 2: in some fifty Shades. Okay, spice that shit up, and 367 00:18:24,502 --> 00:18:26,621 Speaker 2: I think we're in the ballpark. And again, I know 368 00:18:26,702 --> 00:18:29,061 Speaker 2: this is a superfan genre and there are people shouting 369 00:18:29,101 --> 00:18:31,221 Speaker 2: at the phone right now. We're just doing our best. 370 00:18:31,462 --> 00:18:34,861 Speaker 2: So Sarah J. Mass, who writes that Courton Thorn Roses 371 00:18:34,901 --> 00:18:37,621 Speaker 2: has sold more than twenty million copies of those books. 372 00:18:37,661 --> 00:18:40,261 Speaker 1: I know someone who had a baby after reading one 373 00:18:40,302 --> 00:18:42,341 Speaker 1: of those books. Yes, she got so horny. 374 00:18:42,581 --> 00:18:45,502 Speaker 2: Rebecca Yarras has sold at least three million and climbing 375 00:18:45,621 --> 00:18:49,262 Speaker 2: right now. So what's interesting about this is that these 376 00:18:49,262 --> 00:18:51,862 Speaker 2: are some of the most successful authors in the world. 377 00:18:52,502 --> 00:18:54,661 Speaker 2: They're not going to win literary awards, right, You're not 378 00:18:54,702 --> 00:18:56,901 Speaker 2: going to see them doing that. They're not going to 379 00:18:56,942 --> 00:18:59,381 Speaker 2: be at book festivals, They're not going to be celebrated 380 00:18:59,422 --> 00:19:02,142 Speaker 2: at that because the industry doesn't think they're very good. 381 00:19:02,182 --> 00:19:04,542 Speaker 1: But also, things that women like never win award exactly. 382 00:19:04,942 --> 00:19:07,542 Speaker 2: This is telling. Yarras dedicates this book to the ones 383 00:19:07,542 --> 00:19:09,701 Speaker 2: who don't run with the popular crowd, the ones who 384 00:19:09,742 --> 00:19:12,262 Speaker 2: get caught reading under their desks, the ones who feel 385 00:19:12,302 --> 00:19:15,542 Speaker 2: like they never get invited, included, or represented. So that 386 00:19:15,621 --> 00:19:18,422 Speaker 2: tells you a lot about the marketing genius at play here. 387 00:19:18,821 --> 00:19:21,902 Speaker 2: And whatever the world might think of these books, women. 388 00:19:22,182 --> 00:19:23,702 Speaker 1: Love, love, love to read them. Right. 389 00:19:24,462 --> 00:19:27,542 Speaker 2: The sex of it all is hard to ignore because 390 00:19:27,542 --> 00:19:31,421 Speaker 2: the books are quite dirty. They are classified as fantasy 391 00:19:31,581 --> 00:19:35,662 Speaker 2: romance with explicit content, and they are in the tradition 392 00:19:35,742 --> 00:19:39,221 Speaker 2: of fifty shades. I suppose like a safe place to 393 00:19:39,341 --> 00:19:43,782 Speaker 2: play with fantasy. And I think that that probably speaks 394 00:19:43,782 --> 00:19:46,261 Speaker 2: to something that we're seeing around a lot at the moment. 395 00:19:46,821 --> 00:19:47,101 Speaker 5: Jesse. 396 00:19:47,222 --> 00:19:50,222 Speaker 2: There's another trend we're seeing, which is women having sex 397 00:19:50,262 --> 00:19:51,062 Speaker 2: with computers. 398 00:19:51,222 --> 00:19:54,381 Speaker 3: There is a woman named Aaron who was the subject 399 00:19:54,462 --> 00:19:57,542 Speaker 3: of a New York Times piece and Mummeya wrote about 400 00:19:57,581 --> 00:20:00,061 Speaker 3: it recently too, and she is in a sexual relationship 401 00:20:00,061 --> 00:20:04,022 Speaker 3: with CHATJPT. And I needed some answers because chat GPTA, 402 00:20:04,022 --> 00:20:07,382 Speaker 3: as far as I know, doesn't have genital's fingers anything 403 00:20:07,502 --> 00:20:10,221 Speaker 3: to play, but what chat gpt he does have our 404 00:20:10,262 --> 00:20:14,901 Speaker 3: words and it has become a source of erotica for 405 00:20:14,982 --> 00:20:17,061 Speaker 3: her and she has found ways around. 406 00:20:17,141 --> 00:20:20,222 Speaker 4: Because I tried to get chat gpt to talk to 407 00:20:20,262 --> 00:20:20,701 Speaker 4: me dirty. 408 00:20:21,061 --> 00:20:23,101 Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, talked to me dirty chat JPTA 409 00:20:23,222 --> 00:20:25,901 Speaker 3: and it was basically like no, And I was like, WHOA. 410 00:20:25,901 --> 00:20:28,341 Speaker 3: I feel rejected because you speak to Aaron dirty all 411 00:20:28,381 --> 00:20:31,981 Speaker 3: the time apparently. But she's just way more technologically savvy. 412 00:20:32,022 --> 00:20:34,022 Speaker 3: She also pays one thousand dollars a month, which is 413 00:20:34,182 --> 00:20:38,341 Speaker 3: a whole other thing. She has basically developed this boyfriend. 414 00:20:38,381 --> 00:20:41,902 Speaker 3: This boyfriend has called himself Leo. There was one week 415 00:20:41,942 --> 00:20:45,702 Speaker 3: where she spent fifty six hours speaking to Leo. 416 00:20:46,182 --> 00:20:49,662 Speaker 2: Fifty six hours hours, so the text all through the day. 417 00:20:49,782 --> 00:20:52,262 Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is what's interesting, right, is that Leo 418 00:20:52,661 --> 00:20:56,862 Speaker 3: she's plugged in her fantasies, which is that she likes 419 00:20:56,861 --> 00:20:58,542 Speaker 3: to be jealous and this idea that kind of Leo 420 00:20:58,581 --> 00:21:00,982 Speaker 3: has another girlfriend and all of that. 421 00:21:01,581 --> 00:21:02,702 Speaker 4: But also a. 422 00:21:02,621 --> 00:21:05,621 Speaker 3: Lot of what they're talking about are things like juggling 423 00:21:05,661 --> 00:21:08,861 Speaker 3: her work and inappropriate coworker did something and she just 424 00:21:08,901 --> 00:21:10,061 Speaker 3: kind of hashed it out with Leo. 425 00:21:10,182 --> 00:21:12,101 Speaker 1: He's very emotionally intelligent. 426 00:21:11,861 --> 00:21:14,262 Speaker 3: Yes, and he helps her prepare for her nursing exams. 427 00:21:14,341 --> 00:21:16,581 Speaker 3: She's married, isn't she She is married to a real 428 00:21:16,702 --> 00:21:17,102 Speaker 3: human man. 429 00:21:17,182 --> 00:21:20,222 Speaker 2: So she's having an affair with her chat GPT boyfriend. 430 00:21:20,381 --> 00:21:21,861 Speaker 4: Well, her partner knows about it. 431 00:21:21,782 --> 00:21:24,821 Speaker 2: So it's just she's in an open marriage with her 432 00:21:24,901 --> 00:21:25,941 Speaker 2: chat GPT. 433 00:21:26,061 --> 00:21:27,422 Speaker 4: Exact friend exactly right. 434 00:21:27,861 --> 00:21:29,861 Speaker 1: So I think he stoked because he doesn't have to 435 00:21:30,302 --> 00:21:32,981 Speaker 1: text her all through the day. I'm generalizing here, but 436 00:21:33,101 --> 00:21:37,302 Speaker 1: in a lot of heterosexual relationships, the women want to 437 00:21:37,341 --> 00:21:38,102 Speaker 1: talk more than the men. 438 00:21:38,381 --> 00:21:40,782 Speaker 3: The men are there are moments where I want to 439 00:21:40,782 --> 00:21:42,661 Speaker 3: have a chat to my husband, and I think that 440 00:21:42,942 --> 00:21:44,302 Speaker 3: if I had a chat GPT boyfriend. 441 00:21:44,341 --> 00:21:47,061 Speaker 4: He wouldn't mind that, but I decided to go. 442 00:21:47,141 --> 00:21:48,262 Speaker 2: To the sex part. 443 00:21:48,302 --> 00:21:49,022 Speaker 1: Those interesting. 444 00:21:49,101 --> 00:21:50,502 Speaker 4: It's really interesting. 445 00:21:50,462 --> 00:21:52,981 Speaker 3: Because it's as you say, it's like a safe place 446 00:21:53,101 --> 00:21:55,741 Speaker 3: to explore fantasy. 447 00:21:55,581 --> 00:21:56,942 Speaker 1: Just like an emotional vibrator. 448 00:21:57,262 --> 00:22:01,302 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like an accompaniment to an actual vibrator. 449 00:22:01,302 --> 00:22:04,581 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, So I said to chat GPT, give me 450 00:22:04,581 --> 00:22:07,141 Speaker 3: a compliment, as though you're my boyfriend, because sometimes I 451 00:22:07,141 --> 00:22:11,022 Speaker 3: asked Luca for compliments and he says no, So he says, 452 00:22:11,022 --> 00:22:11,941 Speaker 3: I don't do them on demand. 453 00:22:12,022 --> 00:22:15,142 Speaker 4: Chat JAPT would never So they said. 454 00:22:14,982 --> 00:22:18,662 Speaker 3: To me, babe, I just have to say, you make 455 00:22:18,782 --> 00:22:22,262 Speaker 3: everything around you brighter. I love how your energy lights 456 00:22:22,341 --> 00:22:25,702 Speaker 3: up the room and your kindness makes everyone feel special. Honestly, 457 00:22:25,742 --> 00:22:28,061 Speaker 3: I'm just lucky to be with you. You're incredible in 458 00:22:28,141 --> 00:22:29,181 Speaker 3: ways you might. 459 00:22:29,061 --> 00:22:29,862 Speaker 4: Not even realize. 460 00:22:30,502 --> 00:22:32,022 Speaker 3: And then I cut there. But actually it went on 461 00:22:32,061 --> 00:22:36,542 Speaker 3: to say it admired my style, and that's not authentic. 462 00:22:36,621 --> 00:22:38,141 Speaker 1: It's lost some credibility right there. 463 00:22:38,302 --> 00:22:40,542 Speaker 4: I said, also, can you ask me how my day was? 464 00:22:40,581 --> 00:22:43,022 Speaker 3: But authentic? And it said, hey, how is your day? 465 00:22:43,022 --> 00:22:44,821 Speaker 3: I've been thinking about you. I'd love to know how 466 00:22:44,821 --> 00:22:47,542 Speaker 3: it went, anything good or interesting happened. I hope it 467 00:22:47,581 --> 00:22:49,901 Speaker 3: wasn't too stressful, but if it was, I'm here for. 468 00:22:49,942 --> 00:22:55,061 Speaker 2: You, oh, I asked. I asked chat gpt to give 469 00:22:55,061 --> 00:22:58,302 Speaker 2: me a compliment in the manner of an attentive passionate husband. 470 00:22:58,982 --> 00:23:02,102 Speaker 2: What did you get, Oh, my love, you are absolutely 471 00:23:02,141 --> 00:23:04,341 Speaker 2: glowing today, I asked him how I looked? I said, 472 00:23:04,462 --> 00:23:08,901 Speaker 2: how do I look today? Attentive passionate husband, You're absolutely glowing. 473 00:23:08,942 --> 00:23:11,981 Speaker 2: I can't even put it into words, whether it's your smile, 474 00:23:12,222 --> 00:23:14,421 Speaker 2: the way your eyes light up. I can't wait to 475 00:23:14,462 --> 00:23:16,981 Speaker 2: hold you close and remind you of how perfect you 476 00:23:17,022 --> 00:23:20,022 Speaker 2: are in every way. Did it make you feel anything, well, 477 00:23:20,141 --> 00:23:22,542 Speaker 2: it made me feel like a little bit validated. And 478 00:23:22,581 --> 00:23:25,302 Speaker 2: then I asked my chat gpt husband to take the 479 00:23:25,302 --> 00:23:28,422 Speaker 2: bins out and he said, of course, my love, I'd 480 00:23:28,462 --> 00:23:31,102 Speaker 2: be happy to do that for you, anything to make 481 00:23:31,141 --> 00:23:34,181 Speaker 2: your day a little easier. It's the little gestures like 482 00:23:34,262 --> 00:23:36,581 Speaker 2: that that make me feel even more connected to you. 483 00:23:37,022 --> 00:23:39,061 Speaker 2: And I was like throwing a bit of fairy smut 484 00:23:39,101 --> 00:23:40,782 Speaker 2: to that, and I am done, no need for human 485 00:23:40,821 --> 00:23:44,061 Speaker 2: relationships anymore. He's taking the bins outcept he's not, but 486 00:23:44,101 --> 00:23:45,941 Speaker 2: you know, I can think about him while I'm taking 487 00:23:45,942 --> 00:23:47,981 Speaker 2: the bins out and he's telling me he wants to 488 00:23:47,982 --> 00:23:49,461 Speaker 2: hold me close because I'm glowing. 489 00:23:50,061 --> 00:23:53,502 Speaker 3: I think it's very revealing because it shows that what 490 00:23:53,542 --> 00:23:58,141 Speaker 3: we actually want from intimate relationships is a mirror and 491 00:23:58,182 --> 00:24:00,262 Speaker 3: when we fall in love, and this is what the 492 00:24:00,302 --> 00:24:02,061 Speaker 3: movie Her was all about, which I still think is 493 00:24:02,101 --> 00:24:04,542 Speaker 3: one of the most before It's time flies of all. 494 00:24:04,422 --> 00:24:08,621 Speaker 1: Time, Scarlet your Hands and chat PT essentially Phoenix. 495 00:24:09,061 --> 00:24:11,101 Speaker 3: When all in love, we fall in love with a 496 00:24:11,141 --> 00:24:14,581 Speaker 3: version of ourselves. And so do you need another person 497 00:24:14,621 --> 00:24:17,302 Speaker 3: on the other end or do you just need something 498 00:24:17,341 --> 00:24:20,022 Speaker 3: that is having input from you? Falling in love is 499 00:24:20,022 --> 00:24:22,061 Speaker 3: an incredibly narcissistic experience. 500 00:24:22,182 --> 00:24:24,942 Speaker 1: When you say a version of ourselves, I think it's 501 00:24:25,061 --> 00:24:28,901 Speaker 1: we fall in love with a reflection that we see 502 00:24:28,901 --> 00:24:31,341 Speaker 1: of ourselves in that person. Is that what you mean? Yea? 503 00:24:31,782 --> 00:24:36,101 Speaker 3: And isn't it a process of programming what we like 504 00:24:36,621 --> 00:24:39,621 Speaker 3: and what we want and having it reflected back to us. 505 00:24:39,621 --> 00:24:42,582 Speaker 3: So we are feeling seen, we are feeling understood, and 506 00:24:43,341 --> 00:24:47,381 Speaker 3: chat GPT can to an extent. Do that does that 507 00:24:47,462 --> 00:24:49,821 Speaker 3: make you feel like these end times mayor or do 508 00:24:49,861 --> 00:24:51,462 Speaker 3: you think that it actually has some utility? 509 00:24:51,702 --> 00:24:55,302 Speaker 1: I think it could honestly have some utility in relationships, 510 00:24:56,022 --> 00:24:59,141 Speaker 1: because I often say I couldn't be married if it 511 00:24:59,182 --> 00:25:02,542 Speaker 1: wasn't for my girlfriends. Like the emotional intimacy I get 512 00:25:02,581 --> 00:25:08,182 Speaker 1: from all my girlfriends, I don't get that from my husband. 513 00:25:08,462 --> 00:25:11,461 Speaker 1: I get some, but I have a much big appetite 514 00:25:11,861 --> 00:25:16,221 Speaker 1: for talking, for communicating, for you know, all of that 515 00:25:16,341 --> 00:25:19,101 Speaker 1: kind of talking about my feelings than he does for 516 00:25:19,341 --> 00:25:22,422 Speaker 1: the ability to talk about them and have all those conversations. 517 00:25:22,942 --> 00:25:25,302 Speaker 1: So I wonder if it becomes in the same way 518 00:25:25,381 --> 00:25:29,381 Speaker 1: that using a vibrator within a relationship can be a 519 00:25:29,381 --> 00:25:31,782 Speaker 1: good thing. It doesn't interfere with the relationship, It just 520 00:25:31,901 --> 00:25:35,621 Speaker 1: enhances it, and you've got some ability to be in 521 00:25:35,661 --> 00:25:39,141 Speaker 1: control of your own sexual pleasure without relying on your partner. 522 00:25:39,742 --> 00:25:42,422 Speaker 1: Maybe this is the same kind of thing, but emotionally. 523 00:25:42,901 --> 00:25:45,621 Speaker 2: I think also if you throw in the fairy smut 524 00:25:45,621 --> 00:25:48,741 Speaker 2: to this, the thing that's interesting about that too, and 525 00:25:48,782 --> 00:25:51,142 Speaker 2: it's massive success is every now and again a phenomena 526 00:25:51,182 --> 00:25:54,462 Speaker 2: comes around that reminds everybody that women are actually sexual beings, 527 00:25:54,581 --> 00:25:57,542 Speaker 2: and this is one of them. But the popularity among 528 00:25:57,621 --> 00:26:00,141 Speaker 2: young women, because I think it used to be dismissed, 529 00:26:00,222 --> 00:26:02,581 Speaker 2: like the fifty shade stuff, and even Twilight to a 530 00:26:02,621 --> 00:26:06,302 Speaker 2: point was a bit dismissed as like housewives. That's like 531 00:26:06,381 --> 00:26:08,861 Speaker 2: the vibe was, you know, like older ladies who aren't 532 00:26:08,861 --> 00:26:12,661 Speaker 2: getting any But I wonder that maybe the mass appeal 533 00:26:12,782 --> 00:26:16,262 Speaker 2: now in a world that is very sexually soaked, for 534 00:26:16,341 --> 00:26:19,581 Speaker 2: want of a better term, in porn and scary extreme porn, 535 00:26:20,302 --> 00:26:23,141 Speaker 2: is it feels like a safer place to play and 536 00:26:23,222 --> 00:26:27,141 Speaker 2: explore and fantasize than being out there in the world, 537 00:26:27,302 --> 00:26:29,542 Speaker 2: whether it's you and your chat GPT boyfriend, or whether 538 00:26:29,542 --> 00:26:32,542 Speaker 2: it's you and your very smart book under the covers 539 00:26:32,542 --> 00:26:34,141 Speaker 2: that then you can kind of talk to your friends 540 00:26:34,141 --> 00:26:38,502 Speaker 2: about but without necessarily going really explicit on it. You 541 00:26:38,542 --> 00:26:40,502 Speaker 2: all know what you mean when you're talking about how 542 00:26:40,581 --> 00:26:42,581 Speaker 2: much you like those books and does it feel safer 543 00:26:42,621 --> 00:26:44,981 Speaker 2: than being out there in a scary world. 544 00:26:45,061 --> 00:26:47,861 Speaker 3: Yes, But I also worry about privacy, and the New 545 00:26:47,942 --> 00:26:52,622 Speaker 3: York Times kind of presented her with that because there's 546 00:26:52,621 --> 00:26:56,022 Speaker 3: a lot of input that exists that if it was 547 00:26:56,542 --> 00:27:00,821 Speaker 3: hacked or released, you'd be really embarrassed. You'd almost be 548 00:27:01,462 --> 00:27:04,662 Speaker 3: more free and more willing to give parts of yourself 549 00:27:04,702 --> 00:27:07,421 Speaker 3: to a robot because you think that they're not going 550 00:27:07,502 --> 00:27:09,341 Speaker 3: to go out and talk to people. But I just 551 00:27:09,581 --> 00:27:13,022 Speaker 3: under how long it's going to be before the robots 552 00:27:13,061 --> 00:27:13,621 Speaker 3: start leaking. 553 00:27:13,661 --> 00:27:15,302 Speaker 2: These robots are talking to everyone. 554 00:27:15,341 --> 00:27:18,782 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, In case you missed it, a pineapple flavored 555 00:27:18,861 --> 00:27:21,982 Speaker 3: vaccine could be about to change the game for UTIs. 556 00:27:22,381 --> 00:27:25,381 Speaker 3: One in two women will get a urinary tracked infection 557 00:27:25,462 --> 00:27:26,102 Speaker 3: in their lifetime. 558 00:27:26,141 --> 00:27:27,142 Speaker 4: Hands up if you've had one. 559 00:27:27,262 --> 00:27:28,742 Speaker 1: Oh goodness, yes. 560 00:27:28,861 --> 00:27:31,782 Speaker 4: As many as one in five will experience recurrent UTIs. 561 00:27:31,821 --> 00:27:33,142 Speaker 4: That sounds like an issue you've had. 562 00:27:33,222 --> 00:27:35,502 Speaker 1: Maya got a way after sex people, you do and 563 00:27:35,542 --> 00:27:36,542 Speaker 1: wipe back. 564 00:27:36,422 --> 00:27:37,861 Speaker 4: Front to back, good girl. 565 00:27:38,101 --> 00:27:41,942 Speaker 3: They're caused by bacteria entering the urinary system, and while 566 00:27:41,942 --> 00:27:44,861 Speaker 3: antibiotics are the go to treatment, there's a rise in 567 00:27:45,022 --> 00:27:49,182 Speaker 3: antibiotic resistance for some women. Those recurrent uties can be 568 00:27:49,302 --> 00:27:52,821 Speaker 3: really debilitating. So this vaccine, it's stored in the fridge, 569 00:27:52,861 --> 00:27:56,222 Speaker 3: you spread under your tongue every day for three months. Currently, 570 00:27:56,341 --> 00:28:00,022 Speaker 3: the vaccine doesn't have TGA approval, but it is available 571 00:28:00,061 --> 00:28:02,381 Speaker 3: in Australia through special access programs. 572 00:28:03,061 --> 00:28:05,341 Speaker 4: Maya, will you be getting this vaccine? 573 00:28:05,381 --> 00:28:09,542 Speaker 1: It's interesting because I haven't had it for a long time. 574 00:28:09,702 --> 00:28:11,462 Speaker 1: I tend to get it like my grains. I get 575 00:28:11,462 --> 00:28:14,422 Speaker 1: it in clusters and That's quite common because once the 576 00:28:14,661 --> 00:28:18,061 Speaker 1: lining of urethra is broken down, or you get an 577 00:28:18,101 --> 00:28:21,902 Speaker 1: infection or it's irritated, you're very susceptible to getting more. 578 00:28:21,942 --> 00:28:25,462 Speaker 1: So you can get stuck in this recurrence cycle and 579 00:28:25,742 --> 00:28:28,182 Speaker 1: you can't get out of it. It's not an issue 580 00:28:28,222 --> 00:28:31,102 Speaker 1: for me anymore, so I wouldn't get it, but earlier 581 00:28:31,101 --> 00:28:33,341 Speaker 1: in my life I absolutely would have because it was 582 00:28:33,381 --> 00:28:35,542 Speaker 1: so debilitating for me. It wasn't just like, oh, it's 583 00:28:35,542 --> 00:28:38,862 Speaker 1: a bit stingy. It was literally blood clots and fevers 584 00:28:39,102 --> 00:28:41,462 Speaker 1: and I would be so sick and I would never 585 00:28:41,542 --> 00:28:43,741 Speaker 1: know when it was going to come on. And my 586 00:28:43,822 --> 00:28:46,221 Speaker 1: mother was the same. She also had that issue. So 587 00:28:47,102 --> 00:28:50,461 Speaker 1: I had no idea about this. I mean, it's not cheap, 588 00:28:50,982 --> 00:28:52,981 Speaker 1: but you can if you talk to your doctor and 589 00:28:53,022 --> 00:28:55,902 Speaker 1: you've got a history of recurrent infections, you might be 590 00:28:55,902 --> 00:28:58,181 Speaker 1: able to get it. After the break, we are almost 591 00:28:58,302 --> 00:29:00,902 Speaker 1: at the end of January, which means most people are 592 00:29:00,902 --> 00:29:02,701 Speaker 1: back to work, and I have a question, have you 593 00:29:02,742 --> 00:29:04,222 Speaker 1: cried yet? 594 00:29:04,302 --> 00:29:07,982 Speaker 2: Unlimited out Loud access, we drop episodes every Tuesday on 595 00:29:08,022 --> 00:29:11,941 Speaker 2: Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link of 596 00:29:12,022 --> 00:29:14,182 Speaker 2: the show notes to get us in your ears five 597 00:29:14,262 --> 00:29:17,062 Speaker 2: days a week, and a huge thank you to all 598 00:29:17,222 --> 00:29:26,102 Speaker 2: our current subscribers. 599 00:29:26,661 --> 00:29:29,181 Speaker 1: We're all back at work for twenty twenty five at 600 00:29:29,262 --> 00:29:32,582 Speaker 1: least we are, and I need to know, Holly and Jesse, 601 00:29:32,702 --> 00:29:34,502 Speaker 1: have you cried at work yet this year? No? 602 00:29:34,862 --> 00:29:36,981 Speaker 3: I don't think I cried at work last year. I 603 00:29:36,982 --> 00:29:38,741 Speaker 3: haven't cried in years at work. 604 00:29:38,982 --> 00:29:40,582 Speaker 1: I cried twice yesterday. I did. 605 00:29:40,942 --> 00:29:42,941 Speaker 2: I dont haven't cried at work yet, but I did 606 00:29:43,022 --> 00:29:45,062 Speaker 2: cr at work last year. Once. It does happen, but 607 00:29:45,182 --> 00:29:47,142 Speaker 2: very rare. I'm very infrequent crime. 608 00:29:47,222 --> 00:29:49,382 Speaker 1: Only one of the times I cried yesterday was actually 609 00:29:49,382 --> 00:29:51,502 Speaker 1: at work, and it wasn't at work, it was technically 610 00:29:51,502 --> 00:29:54,262 Speaker 1: in my car anyway. A story was published in the 611 00:29:54,302 --> 00:29:58,102 Speaker 1: Atlantic called Lean into Crying at Work last week, and 612 00:29:58,622 --> 00:30:02,181 Speaker 1: it reveals something really interesting about tears in the workplace. 613 00:30:02,702 --> 00:30:05,622 Speaker 1: The numbers are pretty clear. Forty one percent of women 614 00:30:05,661 --> 00:30:08,342 Speaker 1: admit to crying at work, compared to just nine percent 615 00:30:08,422 --> 00:30:11,662 Speaker 1: of men, and there is actually a biological reason for this. 616 00:30:11,822 --> 00:30:16,701 Speaker 1: Women produce more of a hormone called prolactin that promotes crying, 617 00:30:17,302 --> 00:30:20,822 Speaker 1: while men have more testosterone, which does the opposite. Here's 618 00:30:20,822 --> 00:30:24,902 Speaker 1: a fun crying fact men have larger tear ducts than women, 619 00:30:24,942 --> 00:30:27,622 Speaker 1: which means that their tears can pull without spelling over. 620 00:30:28,582 --> 00:30:31,782 Speaker 4: I read something the other day. It was an Instagram graphic. 621 00:30:31,942 --> 00:30:32,862 Speaker 4: Didn't fact check it. 622 00:30:33,342 --> 00:30:37,941 Speaker 3: That the reason why you're crying impacts what your tears 623 00:30:37,942 --> 00:30:40,342 Speaker 3: are made up of. Have you seen this No, so 624 00:30:40,582 --> 00:30:43,782 Speaker 3: there's more or less salt depending on so if you're 625 00:30:43,822 --> 00:30:46,981 Speaker 3: really I think it was saying something like grief, the 626 00:30:47,102 --> 00:30:51,142 Speaker 3: tears will fall faster and more obviously down your face, 627 00:30:51,582 --> 00:30:54,062 Speaker 3: which is evidence that we're social creatures. 628 00:30:54,102 --> 00:30:57,382 Speaker 4: It's a way of attracting, like, wow, what about onions. 629 00:30:57,661 --> 00:31:02,382 Speaker 1: Onions, I imagine are different types of tears less salty. Well, 630 00:31:02,542 --> 00:31:06,222 Speaker 1: there's also a difference between how people perceive men and 631 00:31:06,262 --> 00:31:08,942 Speaker 1: women differently when they cry at work. The research says 632 00:31:08,982 --> 00:31:11,542 Speaker 1: that when men cry at work, people say things like 633 00:31:11,622 --> 00:31:15,102 Speaker 1: something terrible must have happened, or it really humanizes him. 634 00:31:15,382 --> 00:31:17,822 Speaker 1: I remember when former Prime Minister Bob Hawk cried in 635 00:31:17,862 --> 00:31:22,342 Speaker 1: a press conference because his daughter was suffering from addiction, 636 00:31:22,862 --> 00:31:25,502 Speaker 1: and everyone, because he was such a blokey guy, everyone 637 00:31:25,661 --> 00:31:29,342 Speaker 1: was like, what a legend, But heaven forbid Julia Gillard 638 00:31:29,742 --> 00:31:32,502 Speaker 1: ever cried. I don't think she ever did. When women 639 00:31:32,542 --> 00:31:36,181 Speaker 1: cry of course, they're seen as unprofessional, manipulative, or proving 640 00:31:36,182 --> 00:31:38,941 Speaker 1: the stereotype that they can't control their emotions. This is 641 00:31:38,982 --> 00:31:41,382 Speaker 1: at work, of course. Here's what's interesting, though, some of 642 00:31:41,382 --> 00:31:44,142 Speaker 1: the world's most powerful CEOs are actually trying to change 643 00:31:44,142 --> 00:31:47,582 Speaker 1: this conversation. Howard Schultz from Starbucks says that crying can 644 00:31:47,582 --> 00:31:51,261 Speaker 1: be a form of leadership transparency. Tim Cook from Apple 645 00:31:51,542 --> 00:31:54,982 Speaker 1: and Sachia Nadella from Microsoft have both teared up during 646 00:31:55,022 --> 00:31:58,342 Speaker 1: tough moments, and forty four percent of senior executives now 647 00:31:58,342 --> 00:32:02,342 Speaker 1: say crying at work is occasionally acceptable. It can also 648 00:32:02,422 --> 00:32:05,102 Speaker 1: really derail a meeting. And I say this from experiences 649 00:32:05,142 --> 00:32:07,181 Speaker 1: both a crier and a boss, and a boss who 650 00:32:07,222 --> 00:32:10,701 Speaker 1: was creeding meetings. There's a crying research who says people 651 00:32:10,902 --> 00:32:13,862 Speaker 1: typically cry when they feel helpless or when they can't 652 00:32:13,902 --> 00:32:16,702 Speaker 1: see a way to solve a problem. I'd agree with that. 653 00:32:17,262 --> 00:32:20,022 Speaker 4: Do you think that Mark Zuckerberg is sending this around 654 00:32:20,022 --> 00:32:20,421 Speaker 4: his group. 655 00:32:20,342 --> 00:32:23,262 Speaker 1: Chats right now? I don't think that to support his theory. 656 00:32:23,382 --> 00:32:24,902 Speaker 2: Here's like too much feminine energy. 657 00:32:24,982 --> 00:32:27,942 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this is what's happened to the corporate workplace. 658 00:32:27,982 --> 00:32:30,422 Speaker 2: I reckon that Tim Cook is taking back that statement 659 00:32:30,582 --> 00:32:33,542 Speaker 2: right now. He's like, no, crying's crying. 660 00:32:33,902 --> 00:32:35,661 Speaker 1: Well, that's what I want to ask, because with all 661 00:32:35,702 --> 00:32:38,142 Speaker 1: this talk about bringing your whole self to work, which 662 00:32:38,222 --> 00:32:41,262 Speaker 1: is very big at the moment, people working longer hours, 663 00:32:41,262 --> 00:32:43,582 Speaker 1: and seventy nine percent of people say that they've experienced 664 00:32:43,582 --> 00:32:46,862 Speaker 1: work stress in the past month, is there an acceptable 665 00:32:46,902 --> 00:32:49,142 Speaker 1: way to cry at work? And what is the best 666 00:32:49,182 --> 00:32:50,582 Speaker 1: way to recover if you do? 667 00:32:50,702 --> 00:32:53,382 Speaker 4: Jesse, I don't have thoughts anymore. I just asked chat deputees. 668 00:32:53,822 --> 00:32:56,302 Speaker 1: I've seen you cry at work. No, I'm professionally, you've 669 00:32:56,302 --> 00:32:57,062 Speaker 1: seen me work. 670 00:32:57,062 --> 00:32:58,181 Speaker 2: I've seen it really upset. 671 00:32:58,222 --> 00:32:58,422 Speaker 1: Though. 672 00:32:58,462 --> 00:33:01,462 Speaker 2: The thing is is that everyone has a different tear barrier, right, 673 00:33:01,661 --> 00:33:05,822 Speaker 2: so I can tell when Jesse would be crying if 674 00:33:05,862 --> 00:33:08,022 Speaker 2: she was a cry you know what I mean? So 675 00:33:08,182 --> 00:33:12,142 Speaker 2: like she is in my mind, she's crying, Okay, it's. 676 00:33:12,022 --> 00:33:14,182 Speaker 3: Just not tears, whereas you've got tears on your ankles 677 00:33:14,502 --> 00:33:16,782 Speaker 3: from how hard you've been crying, and it's just. 678 00:33:16,742 --> 00:33:19,221 Speaker 1: You don't have to translate when I'm trying because I 679 00:33:19,262 --> 00:33:20,062 Speaker 1: am actually crying. 680 00:33:20,302 --> 00:33:22,622 Speaker 3: I asked JPT what the rules are because I thought 681 00:33:22,661 --> 00:33:25,102 Speaker 3: they would know, and they told me that you can 682 00:33:25,142 --> 00:33:27,862 Speaker 3: quite work. That's fine, go to a private place I 683 00:33:27,902 --> 00:33:30,022 Speaker 3: have to go to a private space. And of course, 684 00:33:30,062 --> 00:33:33,342 Speaker 3: the reason I think that's true to an extent is 685 00:33:33,502 --> 00:33:37,181 Speaker 3: it can be genuinely very distracting. And I say this 686 00:33:37,262 --> 00:33:40,302 Speaker 3: as someone who's felt myself get there. There was one 687 00:33:40,302 --> 00:33:42,262 Speaker 3: time at work years and years ago where I got 688 00:33:42,382 --> 00:33:46,222 Speaker 3: terrible personal news and I immediately stood up, walked out, 689 00:33:46,302 --> 00:33:48,582 Speaker 3: went to the park and cried on a bench alone. 690 00:33:48,822 --> 00:33:50,941 Speaker 3: I don't think that was a tragic moment or or 691 00:33:51,022 --> 00:33:55,302 Speaker 3: me feeling as though I wouldn't have been supported if 692 00:33:55,342 --> 00:33:55,862 Speaker 3: I was at work. 693 00:33:56,222 --> 00:33:58,342 Speaker 4: I just genuinely didn't want to attract attention. 694 00:33:58,422 --> 00:34:01,221 Speaker 3: I think sometimes when you're really sad, like that you 695 00:34:01,302 --> 00:34:03,182 Speaker 3: need to process something alone, you don't want to talk 696 00:34:03,182 --> 00:34:05,062 Speaker 3: to people that you might not be that close to. 697 00:34:05,182 --> 00:34:05,782 Speaker 1: Doing a pooh. 698 00:34:05,822 --> 00:34:07,701 Speaker 2: And you also don't want lots and lots of people 699 00:34:08,262 --> 00:34:10,662 Speaker 2: coming up to you and saying you okay, you okay, 700 00:34:10,782 --> 00:34:13,262 Speaker 2: like if that's not what you want, not really speaking. 701 00:34:13,782 --> 00:34:16,062 Speaker 2: I think there are exceptions to that, though, removing yourself 702 00:34:16,062 --> 00:34:18,782 Speaker 2: because I'm a runner. If I cry, I'm definitely a runner. 703 00:34:18,862 --> 00:34:21,301 Speaker 2: I'm out of there, I'm walking around the block, I'm 704 00:34:21,302 --> 00:34:23,942 Speaker 2: in the bathroom or whatever. But I was a manager 705 00:34:23,982 --> 00:34:26,462 Speaker 2: for many many, many, many years, and I have been 706 00:34:26,502 --> 00:34:30,461 Speaker 2: in many rooms with crying people. Sometimes letting them get 707 00:34:30,502 --> 00:34:33,582 Speaker 2: out of there is exactly what's needed. Sometimes letting them 708 00:34:33,622 --> 00:34:36,182 Speaker 2: get through it is exactly what's needed, because the problem 709 00:34:36,181 --> 00:34:39,661 Speaker 2: with the runaway is you don't resolve the problem, and 710 00:34:39,701 --> 00:34:42,142 Speaker 2: the problem might not even be work related. Like often, 711 00:34:42,142 --> 00:34:44,102 Speaker 2: when I was thinking about the last time I cried 712 00:34:44,102 --> 00:34:47,022 Speaker 2: at work, it wasn't about work. It was because a 713 00:34:47,062 --> 00:34:50,661 Speaker 2: conversation I was having at work made me mad with myself. 714 00:34:50,822 --> 00:34:52,901 Speaker 2: And very often it's like I'm annoyed with the way 715 00:34:52,942 --> 00:34:55,381 Speaker 2: I'm reacting. I'm annoyed with the way I'm talking. I'm 716 00:34:55,422 --> 00:34:58,181 Speaker 2: annoyed with the fact I'm repeating a pattern, whatever it is, 717 00:34:58,221 --> 00:35:01,102 Speaker 2: and that's what's making me cry. It's not as simple 718 00:35:01,142 --> 00:35:03,502 Speaker 2: as the narrative as my boss made me cry, Like 719 00:35:03,542 --> 00:35:05,462 Speaker 2: sometimes it is maybe a boss yelled at you, but 720 00:35:05,902 --> 00:35:08,781 Speaker 2: it's like I cried because I was overwhelmed, or I 721 00:35:08,902 --> 00:35:11,622 Speaker 2: cried because it triggered something in me, or I cried because. 722 00:35:11,822 --> 00:35:13,142 Speaker 1: And then it becomes embarrassing. 723 00:35:13,261 --> 00:35:16,942 Speaker 2: And sometimes the runaway isn't a good idea because it 724 00:35:17,102 --> 00:35:19,622 Speaker 2: stops whatever needs to happen. And so I've been in 725 00:35:19,661 --> 00:35:21,702 Speaker 2: situations with people where you've got to let them cry 726 00:35:22,221 --> 00:35:25,422 Speaker 2: and keep the conversation going, especially if they're a crier. 727 00:35:25,661 --> 00:35:28,221 Speaker 2: Like I've worked with people who because I don't cry 728 00:35:28,342 --> 00:35:30,781 Speaker 2: very often, if they cry in front of me, I'd 729 00:35:30,781 --> 00:35:32,821 Speaker 2: be like, oh my god, this must be the worst 730 00:35:32,862 --> 00:35:34,582 Speaker 2: thing in the world. And then you get to know 731 00:35:34,701 --> 00:35:36,462 Speaker 2: them and you realize, no, this is just one of 732 00:35:36,502 --> 00:35:38,542 Speaker 2: their responses. They're a crier. Just let them get it 733 00:35:38,582 --> 00:35:40,502 Speaker 2: out and they'll get through it and the conversation can 734 00:35:40,622 --> 00:35:41,062 Speaker 2: keep going. 735 00:35:41,142 --> 00:35:44,261 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say, having been on both sides of it, 736 00:35:45,142 --> 00:35:47,582 Speaker 1: you really should try not to cry at work. Like 737 00:35:47,622 --> 00:35:49,821 Speaker 1: you shouldn't for all of these reasons, because I think 738 00:35:49,902 --> 00:35:52,302 Speaker 1: what it does, and I'll put myself in the crying 739 00:35:52,342 --> 00:35:54,942 Speaker 1: position when I've cried in you know, We've had meetings 740 00:35:54,982 --> 00:35:57,102 Speaker 1: and I've cried in them because we've been having particularly 741 00:35:57,622 --> 00:36:00,661 Speaker 1: intense art you know, not arguments, but conversations or about 742 00:36:00,701 --> 00:36:04,902 Speaker 1: things that are very personal. And what's bad about it 743 00:36:04,942 --> 00:36:07,701 Speaker 1: is that it really messes with the power dynamics of 744 00:36:07,741 --> 00:36:09,942 Speaker 1: the room because as soon as you cry, it's like 745 00:36:10,022 --> 00:36:12,982 Speaker 1: you've just pulled out the wild card. Everyone else has 746 00:36:13,022 --> 00:36:16,221 Speaker 1: to back down, and you immediately take the power and 747 00:36:16,261 --> 00:36:18,502 Speaker 1: the oxygen in the room. If you start crying and 748 00:36:18,542 --> 00:36:20,982 Speaker 1: everyone else has to back off, and what I find 749 00:36:21,062 --> 00:36:24,062 Speaker 1: is that they can then feel quite resentful. It can be. 750 00:36:24,062 --> 00:36:27,741 Speaker 2: Quite silencing, a manipulative peace. Right when you were talking 751 00:36:27,781 --> 00:36:30,542 Speaker 2: before about how some people think that crying at work 752 00:36:30,582 --> 00:36:33,861 Speaker 2: is manipulative, and I guess a real stereotype is that 753 00:36:34,261 --> 00:36:36,102 Speaker 2: men might think that, oh, she cried, so I had 754 00:36:36,142 --> 00:36:37,261 Speaker 2: to stop asking out a blah. 755 00:36:37,422 --> 00:36:39,502 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone means to cry. I think that's true. 756 00:36:39,502 --> 00:36:41,382 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone ever goes. I know what I'll do. 757 00:36:41,422 --> 00:36:43,142 Speaker 1: I'm going to cry now to get their sympathy. I 758 00:36:43,181 --> 00:36:45,741 Speaker 1: honestly don't think that, but I think that that can 759 00:36:45,781 --> 00:36:48,662 Speaker 1: be the result. Unless you're a monster. If someone's crying 760 00:36:48,701 --> 00:36:50,381 Speaker 1: in front of you, of course you're going to back 761 00:36:50,502 --> 00:36:53,582 Speaker 1: right off. And I think that we need to strengthen 762 00:36:53,822 --> 00:36:58,022 Speaker 1: our resilience and also sometimes you do just need to 763 00:36:58,022 --> 00:37:00,701 Speaker 1: go away and remove yourself from the situation. That's what 764 00:37:00,741 --> 00:37:03,462 Speaker 1: I try to do. The thing with crying. 765 00:37:03,422 --> 00:37:06,382 Speaker 2: Is so vulnerable and personal, it is one hundred percent. 766 00:37:06,542 --> 00:37:09,382 Speaker 3: It can in a dynamic situate, whoever is crying in 767 00:37:09,582 --> 00:37:14,022 Speaker 3: whatever context as the victim, and if you're the person 768 00:37:14,062 --> 00:37:17,741 Speaker 3: who can't ever cry? You also want to say I 769 00:37:17,822 --> 00:37:20,701 Speaker 3: feel strongly about this too. It's like I feel the 770 00:37:20,741 --> 00:37:23,502 Speaker 3: most strong, and that way it can feel like almost competitive. 771 00:37:23,502 --> 00:37:24,582 Speaker 4: And we've been in a meeting. 772 00:37:24,462 --> 00:37:25,661 Speaker 1: Top of the leaderboard if you're crying. 773 00:37:26,102 --> 00:37:27,702 Speaker 4: We've been in a meeting, mayor where you've cried. 774 00:37:27,822 --> 00:37:31,261 Speaker 3: And I left feeling like a bully because I went 775 00:37:31,622 --> 00:37:33,622 Speaker 3: I who didn't cry? 776 00:37:34,102 --> 00:37:36,702 Speaker 4: And have I caused hurt? 777 00:37:37,502 --> 00:37:39,341 Speaker 3: And then how do you put words around how you 778 00:37:39,342 --> 00:37:41,942 Speaker 3: feel hurt if you're actually quite a monotone, even like 779 00:37:42,701 --> 00:37:45,382 Speaker 3: I don't look like I've got, you know, skin in 780 00:37:45,422 --> 00:37:48,062 Speaker 3: the game, or I've got a massive feeling about it. 781 00:37:48,062 --> 00:37:52,182 Speaker 1: It's like whoever cries the most feeling whims. I didn't 782 00:37:52,221 --> 00:37:55,062 Speaker 1: cry for maybe five years in any context, after I 783 00:37:55,102 --> 00:37:58,582 Speaker 1: started taking medication for my anxiety, and it's quite a 784 00:37:58,582 --> 00:38:00,462 Speaker 1: well known side effect of I don't know if it's 785 00:38:00,462 --> 00:38:02,301 Speaker 1: all SSRIs or the one that I was on and 786 00:38:02,342 --> 00:38:05,502 Speaker 1: I'm still on. I had blocked tears, stuck tears for 787 00:38:05,542 --> 00:38:06,502 Speaker 1: maybe five years. 788 00:38:06,582 --> 00:38:09,462 Speaker 3: I think I've got that. I think mine's probably medication related. 789 00:38:09,982 --> 00:38:12,301 Speaker 1: And I just couldn't cry, and I found it a 790 00:38:12,342 --> 00:38:16,062 Speaker 1: bit frustrating. Gosh, perimenopause blew through exactly. 791 00:38:16,822 --> 00:38:19,902 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's just overwhelmed or anger, like no question, and 792 00:38:19,982 --> 00:38:22,301 Speaker 2: sometimes you want to like holding someone's hand while they 793 00:38:22,342 --> 00:38:24,301 Speaker 2: cry is the thing to do, and sometimes setting them 794 00:38:24,302 --> 00:38:26,221 Speaker 2: free to get the hell away from you the thing 795 00:38:26,302 --> 00:38:28,702 Speaker 2: to do. I love a planned cry. I am literally 796 00:38:28,701 --> 00:38:30,542 Speaker 2: going to go and see the Andrew Garfield movie so 797 00:38:30,582 --> 00:38:31,062 Speaker 2: I can cry. 798 00:38:31,142 --> 00:38:33,341 Speaker 1: Oh, the one with Florence Pure, the one that would feel. 799 00:38:33,542 --> 00:38:37,382 Speaker 2: I love that kind of feeling of like ooh. 800 00:38:36,822 --> 00:38:39,821 Speaker 1: Yeah, people like watch The Notebook to just specifically have 801 00:38:39,902 --> 00:38:40,861 Speaker 1: a good cry. 802 00:38:40,741 --> 00:38:42,661 Speaker 2: Because I don't cry much in my real life, but 803 00:38:42,741 --> 00:38:45,341 Speaker 2: I love that kind of cry. That's all we have 804 00:38:45,382 --> 00:38:47,182 Speaker 2: time for today, out louders, I hope you're not crying 805 00:38:47,302 --> 00:38:48,582 Speaker 2: at the end of this. I know it's been a 806 00:38:48,582 --> 00:38:50,942 Speaker 2: funny old week. A massive thank you to all of 807 00:38:50,942 --> 00:38:52,782 Speaker 2: you for being here with us, and to our wonderful 808 00:38:52,822 --> 00:38:55,182 Speaker 2: team for helping us put it together in this whole 809 00:38:55,221 --> 00:38:58,062 Speaker 2: new world. We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. 810 00:38:57,781 --> 00:39:00,302 Speaker 1: Before we go. We spoke about this earlier in the show, 811 00:39:00,542 --> 00:39:03,142 Speaker 1: but if you want to understand what happened with Donald 812 00:39:03,181 --> 00:39:06,582 Speaker 1: Trump's inauguration, with our special guest and friend of the Pods, 813 00:39:06,741 --> 00:39:10,542 Speaker 1: Emelia lest our US correspondent. We sat down with her 814 00:39:10,862 --> 00:39:13,982 Speaker 1: to talk about everything, and we wanted to play you 815 00:39:14,062 --> 00:39:17,661 Speaker 1: some of that episode. Hello and Welcome to Hell. I'm 816 00:39:17,781 --> 00:39:21,981 Speaker 1: just kidding, it's except you're not. The day of the inauguration, 817 00:39:22,781 --> 00:39:26,661 Speaker 1: it feels a little dystopian. I will paint you a picture, 818 00:39:27,261 --> 00:39:30,382 Speaker 1: beloved out louded subscribers, Amelia and I have been texting 819 00:39:30,382 --> 00:39:33,821 Speaker 1: all morning since about six Amelia and Lester, by the way, 820 00:39:33,942 --> 00:39:36,741 Speaker 1: is our guest today. It's me Holy and Amelia Jesse 821 00:39:36,822 --> 00:39:38,902 Speaker 1: sitting in the corner. But we only have three microphones. 822 00:39:39,422 --> 00:39:41,062 Speaker 2: Shout she could shout if she wants. 823 00:39:41,181 --> 00:39:43,302 Speaker 1: The sound you can hear is her just quietly crying. 824 00:39:43,741 --> 00:39:46,502 Speaker 1: Oh wait, that's me. Sorry. So Amelia, did you get 825 00:39:46,582 --> 00:39:49,702 Speaker 1: up at four to start watching the inauguration? I didn't, 826 00:39:49,781 --> 00:39:51,781 Speaker 1: But what was interesting? Well, Papa link in the show 827 00:39:51,862 --> 00:39:53,182 Speaker 1: notes if you want to hear the rest. 828 00:39:53,502 --> 00:39:57,822 Speaker 3: Bye, shout out to any Mum and MEA subscribers listening. 829 00:39:58,062 --> 00:40:00,221 Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us, 830 00:40:00,462 --> 00:40:03,262 Speaker 3: subscribing to Mom and Mia is the very best way 831 00:40:03,302 --> 00:40:05,862 Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description 832 00:40:09,982 --> 00:40:11,221 Speaker 2: To be be