Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking
Speaker 2: about on Monday, the twenty first of October. I'm Holly Wainwright.
Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2: Oh louders, see, I'm really on it. It's a very
Speaker 2: Monday Monday for me today, how loud as, maybe you're
Speaker 2: having the same kind of Monday. Welcome to my world. Anyway,
Speaker 2: we are joined today by the wonderful Amelia Lester. I'm
Speaker 2: not going to say no.
Speaker 4: She is the deputy editor of Foreign Policy magazine, and
Speaker 4: we know how many outlouders love her because Amelia is
Speaker 4: the only one getting fan mail.
Speaker 3: So I get fan mail.
Speaker 2: Please. It doesn't work if you have to ask for it.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, okay, say hello, Amlia please hello.
Speaker 1: So nice to be here.
Speaker 4: You will know Amelia, of course from our subscriber episodes
Speaker 4: on the US election.
Speaker 2: We'll put a link to those in the show notes
Speaker 2: in case you haven't. Anyway, welcome back to the show
Speaker 2: and welcome to our mondayish Monday on today's show, a
Speaker 2: millennial pop icon is dead, and amongst the lurid coverage
Speaker 2: of Liam Payne, a slow grumble is growing about whether
Speaker 2: it can ever be okay for a teenager to become
Speaker 2: world famous. Also, the King is here. Have you noticed
Speaker 2: Australia's so called lazy Republicanism? Welcomes Charles and Camilla And
Speaker 2: does the return of the victorious Secret Fashion Show foretell
Speaker 2: the American election result?
Speaker 3: Stay with us.
Speaker 2: Amelia is going to explain why undies and politics are linked.
Speaker 1: But first, I am so glad to be here today
Speaker 1: because there's a news story that I think when a
Speaker 1: little bit under the radar, which I think needs more attention,
Speaker 1: and that is that Andrew Garfield dated a witch.
Speaker 3: Yes, that is the important headline, and.
Speaker 1: I understand he's now maybe dating a very popular internet journalist.
Speaker 1: But first we're going to talk about the witch bit.
Speaker 1: March twenty twenty four, Universally Love, two time Oscar nominee
Speaker 1: and Spider Man Andrew Garfield is seen at a restaurant
Speaker 1: in Malibu with his new girlfriend Kate Tomas. He was
Speaker 1: on a double dinner date with Phoebe Bridges and Bo Burnham.
Speaker 1: You might remember him from the COVID musical Inside Oh
Speaker 1: We Remember him?
Speaker 2: Yes, And I like.
Speaker 3: That they're hanging out. I like that datail.
Speaker 1: When you go on a double date with other celebrities
Speaker 1: in Malibu, you want people to see you. And then
Speaker 1: they later went to Chiltern Firehouse in London, which is
Speaker 1: I think where all celebrities go when they really want
Speaker 1: to do the hard launch of the new relationship. At
Speaker 1: the time, and Insider told US Weekly that Garfield appreciates
Speaker 1: the fact that Kate is very different from other women
Speaker 1: he's dated. Would you like to know why?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: So Garfield has previously dated reader Aura and Emma Stone.
Speaker 1: Kate Tomas is a professional witch and spiritual mentor.
Speaker 3: Okay, can you unpack?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: What mean by witch?
Speaker 1: Yes? She has a PhD in theology from Oxford, but
Speaker 1: that's not really her witch bit. Her witch bit is
Speaker 1: that The Times of London recently called her Hollywood's favorite witch.
Speaker 1: She says she's worked with Oscar nominated actors, Pulitzer Prize
Speaker 1: winners Fortune five hundred CEOs Lena Dunham gives an endorsement
Speaker 1: on her website and says Kate has kept me out
Speaker 1: of catastrophe time and time again, I die without her.
Speaker 2: So she's kind of like you know how celebrities all
Speaker 2: used to have psychics or astrologers, like Princess Anna had
Speaker 2: an astrologer who she would refer to anytime she had
Speaker 2: a decision to make. So now a witch is a
Speaker 2: cool thing to have on the payroll.
Speaker 1: Speaking of payroll, yes, so she does say that magic
Speaker 1: takes time. It can't happen overnight. And here's the big
Speaker 1: money ask clients need to sign up for a six
Speaker 1: month minimum commitment and it's around eight thousand Ausie dollars
Speaker 1: a month. Eight thousand. She says, I could charge one
Speaker 1: million dollars a session, and that would be completely ethical
Speaker 1: because I'm not exploiting anybody.
Speaker 2: What's she do for you, though? What do you think?
Speaker 2: Do you think she gives you potions and stuff?
Speaker 1: She doesn't really talk about it very much. But here's
Speaker 1: the good news. For around one hundred and thirty dollars,
Speaker 1: you can attend her seduction mass class, which is online.
Speaker 2: So that you too can date Andrew Garfield.
Speaker 1: Well. In July, she shut down rumors that she'd use
Speaker 1: magic to seduce him, and she was forced to temporarily
Speaker 1: shut down the seduction masterclass because of what she called
Speaker 1: horrific accusations that she had one Andrew Garfield's affections through
Speaker 1: magic spells.
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't you if you could?
Speaker 1: No, Absolutely, she did get a lot of online hate.
Speaker 1: I have to say people did not like him dating
Speaker 1: a witch. That's because witches are not traditionally very popular.
Speaker 1: If you look back to the Salem witch trials on
Speaker 1: they're not popular witches.
Speaker 2: It's been a problem for some time.
Speaker 1: We used to burn them. So she told The Times
Speaker 1: that to deal with this online hate, she has some
Speaker 1: various techniques. These are some of her magic techniques. Screaming
Speaker 1: into a pillow, doing a cord cutting spell, or putting
Speaker 1: a dome of energy like a belja over somebody that's
Speaker 1: actively harmful. I don't know she means a literal beljar,
Speaker 1: because you a really big one. You'd have to order
Speaker 1: one on or something.
Speaker 2: Make a little doll that is apparently, and then you
Speaker 2: put the bell jar over. Yes, let's do that for me.
Speaker 2: I scream into a pillow all the time.
Speaker 1: That was magic or that I need to debate eight
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a month. No, that's you being a witch.
Speaker 1: Next time you do it just say master, do some witchcraft. Okay,
Speaker 1: she might be screaming into a pillow right now because
Speaker 1: the Internet loves Garfield's new love interest. Who is the
Speaker 1: host of Chicken Shop Date Amelia de Moldenburg.
Speaker 2: Surely not, not because I don't think they would date,
Speaker 2: but like, doesn't she professionally date people? Yes, dates in
Speaker 2: inverted commas.
Speaker 4: But in terms of Internet law, what has happened is
Speaker 4: that they have had a few meat cutes on, like
Speaker 4: red carpets and stuff. There is palpable chemistry that people
Speaker 4: are just so invested in, and now they've sat down
Speaker 4: and done a proper Chicken Shop date. Now Amelia has
Speaker 4: been doing this ten years. She goes and speaks to celebrities.
Speaker 4: It started in a real kind of date way where
Speaker 4: she would sit down with a guy and the chicken
Speaker 4: shop stick in the UK, as you would know, Holly
Speaker 4: is like.
Speaker 1: Can you explain that? Well?
Speaker 2: The chicken was like, well, what would be the equivalent?
Speaker 2: It's almost like fish and chip a kebab shop. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's an unglamorous but very popular place where you would
Speaker 2: go and have chicken and chips, and many different kinds
Speaker 2: of chicken would be available. Anyway, I guess the idea
Speaker 2: is the stick was take a glamorous person, put them
Speaker 2: in an unglamorous setting, talk to her an ordinary person.
Speaker 2: And the thing that's always been her great stick is
Speaker 2: that even before now she's a big deal, she's a celebrity,
Speaker 2: but when she started out, I guess the stick was
Speaker 2: ordinary girl with a lot of confidence. I reckon I
Speaker 2: could date any of these people, and that.
Speaker 4: They're here because they genuinely want a date mates. And
Speaker 4: that's why it works, I think is that it's so
Speaker 4: transgressive in a way because often you see with think
Speaker 4: late night shows or whatever, there's this pandering, there's this
Speaker 4: like submissiveness to the celebrity. But this is like, she's
Speaker 4: a powerful one for absolutely.
Speaker 2: No reason exactly.
Speaker 4: So she sits there and then you've got Paul mescal
Speaker 4: or you've got I mean, she's interviewed everyone, but Andrew
Speaker 4: Garfield sits down and she's like, impress me.
Speaker 1: But are you not seeing the Venn diagram here between
Speaker 1: professional seduction technique teacher and Amelia who is a professional flirt.
Speaker 1: That's kind of interesting, is interesting and can we hear?
Speaker 2: I thought the.
Speaker 1: Way that this interview started was very interesting. Can we agree,
Speaker 1: there's a bit of a curse on this. What do
Speaker 1: you mean like a bad cast in the sense of, like,
Speaker 1: you know, we've had a couple of lovely interactions. What's
Speaker 1: going on.
Speaker 2: Well, he knows a lot about curses. He knows a
Speaker 2: lot about maybe Kate, his ex, has put a curse
Speaker 2: on Amelia. You never know screaming poisoned her chicken. Don't
Speaker 2: touch the burger, don't touch it.
Speaker 1: But stepping back, I can't help but feel a bit
Speaker 1: cynical about this him starting with the curse. He knows
Speaker 1: what he's doing here. He's got a film to promote
Speaker 1: with Florence Pwitt's, a romance called We Live in Time.
Speaker 1: He's become a little bit of a kind of professional
Speaker 1: boyfriend figure on the internet.
Speaker 4: I think he is so charismatic. Did you see what
Speaker 4: he did on Sethame Street? Tell me he did this
Speaker 4: thing with Elmo where he sat down and spoke to
Speaker 4: Elmo about grief.
Speaker 3: It was beautiful.
Speaker 4: He is so rogue, I think because he's British, he
Speaker 4: gets away with a lot very clever. He's very, very clever,
Speaker 4: he's very very sexy.
Speaker 1: British people can get away with anything in America, Fordney Exactly.
Speaker 2: Broo cuteh.
Speaker 3: On Wednesday.
Speaker 4: Last week, Liam Payne, former member of One Direction, died
Speaker 4: at thirty one years old after falling from the balcony
Speaker 4: in Buenos Aires.
Speaker 5: The shock over the death of One Direction star Liam
Speaker 5: Payne has continued across the weekend as his father Jeff
Speaker 5: traveled to Argentina to arrange for the return of his
Speaker 5: son's body to England. Mister Paine was taken to the
Speaker 5: Morgue not long after arriving in the country to identify
Speaker 5: his son's body before he headed to the prosecutor's office
Speaker 5: to organize a repatriation of his remains.
Speaker 4: That was Claire Murphy from today's episode of The Quickie
Speaker 4: where they covered what has unfolded since Wednesday. I just
Speaker 4: want to go back a few steps for anyone who
Speaker 4: wasn't a One Direction superfan. So Payne was fourteen when
Speaker 4: he first tried out for The X Factor, but it
Speaker 4: was the second time he auditioned in twenty ten that
Speaker 4: his life changed.
Speaker 3: Overnight.
Speaker 4: He entered as a solo act along with Niall Horn,
Speaker 4: Zaye Mallick, Louis Tomlinson and Harry Styles, but Judge and
Speaker 4: Record executive Simon Cowell decided to try them as a band,
Speaker 4: and they placed third in the competition, but One Direction
Speaker 4: would go on to become one of the best selling
Speaker 4: bands of all time. By twenty fifteen, Zaye Mallick decided
Speaker 4: to leave with an a fisih statement that read, I
Speaker 4: am leaving because I want to be a normal twenty
Speaker 4: two year old who is able to relax and have
Speaker 4: some private time out of the spotlight. They went on
Speaker 4: an indefinite hiatus in twenty sixteen and never performed together again.
Speaker 4: Speaking over the weekend, Guy Chambers, one of the leading
Speaker 4: songwriters in the UK, said under eighteen's should not be
Speaker 4: allowed to join pop bands. Chambers worked with Robbie Williams
Speaker 4: and said there were no protections set up. Documentary maker
Speaker 4: Louis Thrue has a new series set to be released
Speaker 4: next month which is actually all about the dramatic highs
Speaker 4: and depths of despair young stardom can bring, and he
Speaker 4: explores this with the likes of Robbie Williams and Brian McFadden.
Speaker 4: A contestant who was on the same season of The
Speaker 4: X Factor as Pain has just said in the last
Speaker 4: week that the exploitation of young stars leaves many of
Speaker 4: them living with PTSD. Pain had spoken about struggling with
Speaker 4: alcoholism and the experience of being locked in hotel rooms
Speaker 4: with a mini bar between gigs. Also spoken about the
Speaker 4: loneliness of hotel rooms.
Speaker 6: My dad said it from day one, lonely hotel rooms, ma'am.
Speaker 6: Getting locked in that room is not fun. I was
Speaker 6: worried how far my rock button was going to be?
Speaker 6: Where's rock button for me? And you would never have
Speaker 6: seen it. I'm very good at hiding it. No one
Speaker 6: would ever have seen it. But rock button, I mean,
Speaker 6: I don't even know if I hit it yet.
Speaker 3: Holly.
Speaker 4: Fans of One Direction knew that Payne had struggled basically
Speaker 4: since the band rose to fame. Should we be rethinking
Speaker 4: kids working in the entertainment industry? And is that even realistic?
Speaker 2: It's really interesting, isn't it? Because the fact that fame
Speaker 2: and fortune is terrible for mental health, full stop, but
Speaker 2: it's terrible, terrible for mental health of young people is
Speaker 2: not news, right. The curse of the child star is
Speaker 2: a thing, so much of a thing, it's a cliche.
Speaker 2: And think about Britney Spears, and think about Miley Cyrus,
Speaker 2: and think about Michael Jackson, and think about Justin Bieber,
Speaker 2: and you could go on and on and on and
Speaker 2: on and on, right, but it doesn't stop everybody from
Speaker 2: wanting it. So I watched The Voice and stuff with
Speaker 2: my kids, and obviously the Voice isn't what it was
Speaker 2: but in its heyday where these kind of bands started,
Speaker 2: just like The X Factor, just like Idol. This year
Speaker 2: they had a thirteen year old on last year they
Speaker 2: had a twelve year old on a fifteen year old one.
Speaker 2: It wants the Australian version, I mean, and every time
Speaker 2: you watch that happen, the parents and the people around
Speaker 2: those kids will say, I couldn't stop this kid from
Speaker 2: doing this if I wanted to, Like, they are so driven,
Speaker 2: they want it so much.
Speaker 3: Do you think that's true?
Speaker 2: It's their dream? Well? I think it probably is true,
Speaker 2: because as I say about how it's the attraction of fame,
Speaker 2: of fortune, despite all we know about it is intractable.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like the Princess curse. Right, we all
Speaker 2: know that that's terrible for you too, but it doesn't
Speaker 2: stop everybody from swooning. When Harry and Meghan got married.
Speaker 2: I think that young people want to be famous, you
Speaker 2: know now they want to be YouTubers, they want to
Speaker 2: be all over TikTok and Instagram. They want to be
Speaker 2: It looks great. And if you also love music and
Speaker 2: you also love all those things and the fact that
Speaker 2: the consumers of so much pop music are young, then
Speaker 2: it seems to make absolute sense. The thing that is
Speaker 2: so sad about this is that it was so predictable
Speaker 2: in a way because Robbie Williams, who you mentioned in
Speaker 2: the intro, who joined Take That who was the one
Speaker 2: direction of the nineties, and in those days it wasn't
Speaker 2: a reality show. It was literally an ad in a
Speaker 2: newspaper looking for hot young boys who can sing and dance.
Speaker 2: And he was sixteen when he joined that band, and
Speaker 2: he has been so open about what that did to him,
Speaker 2: and he left when he was nineteen twenty, I think,
Speaker 2: and went on to be like, we've seen it over
Speaker 2: and over again, and yet still when somebody dies in
Speaker 2: this circumstance, we're so shocked. Personally. I think, yes, we
Speaker 2: should really be looking at more protectionism for these young kids,
Speaker 2: because it just very rarely seems to end well.
Speaker 1: It's harder to think of the young pop stars who've thrived.
Speaker 1: I mean, the only one that I could really come
Speaker 1: up with was Taylor Swift. Even Demi Lovato, who's still
Speaker 1: very much a successful artist, just released this documentary this year,
Speaker 1: Child's Star, which shows that she's struggled with addiction and
Speaker 1: many other problems as a result of her child's stardom.
Speaker 1: Miley Virus, I suppose you could argue has done very well.
Speaker 1: And there's often a lot of very complicated family dynamics
Speaker 1: at play too, which I think is what you were
Speaker 1: sort of getting at before, Jesse, the question of how
Speaker 1: much of this is a push from parents to attain
Speaker 1: financial security and glamorous lifestyle, and how much is that
Speaker 1: kids really wanting to do this.
Speaker 3: I think the other example is Harry Styles.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but I wouldn't say that because I think
Speaker 2: one of the things that Harry Styles has done very
Speaker 2: successfully is he's very private. Considering how famous Harry Styles is,
Speaker 2: I have never publicly seen him in any circumstance with
Speaker 2: a partner, you know what I mean, like pat pictures only.
Speaker 2: He is intensely private. None of us would have any
Speaker 2: idea about the state of Harry Styles's mental health, and
Speaker 2: he you know, even In some of his most famous
Speaker 2: pop songs, he references pills and loneliness and family problems
Speaker 2: like he seems to be doing well now, like great,
Speaker 2: you know, but.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I read a reference to a study recently. There
Speaker 4: was a study done in sort of second half the
Speaker 4: twentieth century on people who who had chart topping singles,
Speaker 4: and if you had a chart topping single, you were
Speaker 4: three times more likely to die than someone who didn't.
Speaker 4: These were adults, right, and more likely to die from alcoholism,
Speaker 4: accidents and chronic illness that's often caused by drug use
Speaker 4: or something like that.
Speaker 3: The effects of that on the teenage brain.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think you need to do a
Speaker 4: research study to show that it's even bigger. And the
Speaker 4: second thing that that study couldn't take.
Speaker 3: Into account was the Internet because the Internet wasn't around yet.
Speaker 4: So imagine that too. Liam Payne, he had a really
Speaker 4: complicated relationship with fame and even you know, in the
Speaker 4: weeks before his death, he had a former girlfriend who
Speaker 4: had filed for a season desist. Alcoholism was something that
Speaker 4: we heard him talk about, and he did this interview
Speaker 4: with Logan Paul like a podcast interview where he appeared
Speaker 4: to be under the influence of alcohol, and in some
Speaker 4: respects corners of the internet that treated him like a
Speaker 4: laughing stock, really because he had had these dizzying highs
Speaker 4: like Harry Styles, and then he was sort of thrown out. Well,
Speaker 4: felt like he was a bit thrown out after one direction.
Speaker 4: And I found what he said about hotel rooms really
Speaker 4: telling and insightful, because there is something about the hotel
Speaker 4: room that you see in a lot of these stories.
Speaker 4: And I often think about if you are on stage.
Speaker 4: There's a famous story about Liam Payne a fan sort
Speaker 4: of trying to rip his ear off. Is how much
Speaker 4: this fan wants a piece of him. Imagine what that
Speaker 4: does to your nervous system and your adrenaline. And you're
Speaker 4: on stage and you're feeling these highs that the average
Speaker 4: person will never ever experience, and then you go back
Speaker 4: to a silent, dark, empty hotel room. And I've heard
Speaker 4: famous people talk about this, the only way to chase
Speaker 4: that high is through substance. To sit there with your
Speaker 4: own thoughts would be such a confronting experience.
Speaker 2: And also the reason why fame is so at this
Speaker 2: particular level. We've been hearing people telling us these stories.
Speaker 2: For you know almost one hundred years, but we don't
Speaker 2: want to hear them because to our lives, our ordinary lives,
Speaker 2: how could it possibly not be amazing to get everything
Speaker 2: you want, doing something you love, all the money in
Speaker 2: the world, all the adelation in the world, traveling everywhere.
Speaker 2: But the reality of it is is you're taking a
Speaker 2: young person, taking them away from everything that connects them
Speaker 2: to reality because you're constantly traveling, I mean constantly. As
Speaker 2: Robbie Williams said famously, you can't trust anybody once you're
Speaker 2: at that level of fame because everybody wants something from you.
Speaker 2: You're paying everybody's bills, or they want you to, you know,
Speaker 2: listen to my tape, take me this, this, or I
Speaker 2: want to get a secret about you that I can
Speaker 2: sell to somebody. You are a commodity. Once you've lost
Speaker 2: your band of brothers, that's even more difficult because at least,
Speaker 2: if you're all in it together, you're all in it together.
Speaker 2: But once that falls apart, which inevitably it always seems
Speaker 2: to do. You never really get five massive stars out
Speaker 2: of a band once they break up. History tells us
Speaker 2: there will be one or two big breakout stars and
Speaker 2: then everybody else will always be for the rest of
Speaker 2: their life. That guy who used to be in one
Speaker 2: direction are Isn't it sad that he's not Harry Styles?
Speaker 2: Or you know, in Robbie Williams's case, and again he
Speaker 2: spoke about this lots in his amazing documentary. He had
Speaker 2: times when he was, as he described it, the center
Speaker 2: of the pop culture universe, and then he had times
Speaker 2: already is mocked, has been sad, not what you were.
Speaker 2: So you've got intense scrutiny, criticism, separation from everybody who
Speaker 2: loves you in real life, constant traveling, access to everything.
Speaker 2: If you're rich enough and famous enough, you can get
Speaker 2: whatever you want whenever you want it. And a lot
Speaker 2: of what we want is not what we should have.
Speaker 2: How could it end any other way?
Speaker 1: You're making me think about a story that's going to
Speaker 1: be slightly annoying because I can't name the person involved
Speaker 1: in it. But in my twenties, I was living in
Speaker 1: New York and I became friends through a friend of
Speaker 1: mine with a young actress who was also in her
Speaker 1: early twenties and moved to Hollywood around twenty five. And
Speaker 1: there was in a show that we would have all
Speaker 1: seen and I used to see her whenever I went
Speaker 1: to Los Angeles, sort of once a year or so,
Speaker 1: and over the years she became stranger and stranger as
Speaker 1: her star wars in Hollywood. For a start, her nose
Speaker 1: became narrower and narrower, because every time I saw her
Speaker 1: she'd undergone some kind of alteration. The last time I
Speaker 1: saw her, we went out for lunch and she ordered
Speaker 1: a salad of a arugula of rocket salad with a
Speaker 1: side of boiled spinach, and that was her lunch and
Speaker 1: I didn't see her after that, in part because she
Speaker 1: kind of retreated. I think the more famous you get,
Speaker 1: the more closed off your life has to become. And
Speaker 1: that makes me think that if that's someone in their twenties,
Speaker 1: can you imagine for a teenager how oppressive that is.
Speaker 1: And it's part of that overall reevaluation we're doing about
Speaker 1: what it is to be a child and how we
Speaker 1: want to wall off childhood a little more than we
Speaker 1: have in the past. I was looking into when we
Speaker 1: came up with this idea of the prefrontal cortex not
Speaker 1: being heed until twenty six, and that's a relatively recent idea.
Speaker 1: MRI imaging developed in the nineties, and then we started
Speaker 1: looking at brains and we realized they literally look different
Speaker 1: when you're a teenager. And so I think we're probably
Speaker 1: overdue for Just as we're looking at social media and
Speaker 1: whether we want to protect children from social media, we
Speaker 1: probably need to look at whether we want to protect
Speaker 1: children from vame.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because there's a knock on there probably, right,
Speaker 2: is that when I think about my daughter who's fourteen
Speaker 2: and how she lives on social media, no wonder the influences,
Speaker 2: whether they are actual artists or whether they're literally just influencers,
Speaker 2: are the same age, right, The people that she wants
Speaker 2: to see selling her things at the same age. If
Speaker 2: you kick kids off social media, then that market has
Speaker 2: now dried up, right, And that almost protects a group
Speaker 2: of people, not in this instance with the pop stars,
Speaker 2: but as long as we want to sell things to
Speaker 2: young people and we know that they are most susceptible
Speaker 2: to peer to peer marketing, as many of us are,
Speaker 2: then you're always going to turn the people who are
Speaker 2: doing the selling into commodities.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: I think what as Well is so telling about the
Speaker 4: treatment of lie and pain in his life is also
Speaker 4: how he was treated in death because there have been reports.
Speaker 4: The first is leaked photographs from inside the hotel, which
Speaker 4: is almost inevitable that a worker or someone showed images
Speaker 4: of damage that have been done to the hotel. And
Speaker 4: we have heard numerous reports about his final hours which
Speaker 4: are quite confronting. But the other is TMZ publishing images
Speaker 4: of his lifeless body and to not even have privacy
Speaker 4: or dignity in death is so confronting, and in fact
Speaker 4: it was fans I think, as well as kind of
Speaker 4: an ethical framework of journalists going no, you don't publish that,
Speaker 4: but fans coming out going we're disgusted by this, Like
Speaker 4: there's been this enormous backlash. I wonder if that's part
Speaker 4: of it too, that we're looking at this and.
Speaker 2: It's another lesson that we refuse to learn though, right
Speaker 2: every time there's a celebrity death, and even saying celebrity
Speaker 2: death is so awful because to everybody who actually new
Speaker 2: Liam Payne, this is not a celebrity death. This is
Speaker 2: the death of a loved one and a human being.
Speaker 2: But every time we go, it's terrible how their privacy
Speaker 2: is being so invaded. It's terrible how we want to
Speaker 2: know all the details of exactly what they did in
Speaker 2: the last twenty four hours and exactly where his girlfriend
Speaker 2: was and exactly what he ate and exactly what he
Speaker 2: ordered from room service. And then it happens again and
Speaker 2: we all just do it again. You know it's Groundhog Day, Lady.
Speaker 5: I want to know what do you think when you're alone?
Speaker 5: Rising me?
Speaker 2: I think you're me.
Speaker 6: Hell tell you how.
Speaker 2: It's time for Holly's Royal roundup. As we're recording today,
Speaker 2: the King and Queen of England are in Canberra, where
Speaker 2: they've been both the subject of a warm welcome from
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister and other dignitaries, and protested by Senator
Speaker 2: Lydia Thorpe, who has shouted fuck the colony and you'll
Speaker 2: never be our King at Charles during a fancy lone
Speaker 2: time reception. But if you'd almost missed the fact that
Speaker 2: King Charles and Queen Camilla have arrived in Australia, you
Speaker 2: couldn't really be blamed. They arrived on Saturday and it
Speaker 2: was raining. That never helps royal tours. If it's raining,
Speaker 2: it's not good. That's why they have sea through umbrellas
Speaker 2: so you can still see them getting off the plane.
Speaker 3: But still they'd be used to.
Speaker 2: Well, yes, they're very used to the rain. They arrived
Speaker 2: on Saturday. They're in Sydney yesterday, they're in Canberra today.
Speaker 2: Then they're in Sydney tomorrow and that's it.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: It's a flying visit for a few reasons.
Speaker 1: Oddly worth coming, I know. Right.
Speaker 2: So this tour was one of the first ones announced
Speaker 2: after King Charles got coronated over a year ago, and
Speaker 2: after his cancer diagnosis became public. Of course all professional
Speaker 2: activities were suspended. But rather than cancel this tour, it's
Speaker 2: just been really scaled back. And all the Royal insiders
Speaker 2: and the reporters say that he is a workaholic and
Speaker 2: he was absolutely determined he wanted to come.
Speaker 1: Because any Royal insiders are there.
Speaker 2: There are a lot big gossips. He didn't want to
Speaker 2: cancel it all together. But they've lopped off New Zealand.
Speaker 2: They were supposed to do some other things and they
Speaker 2: go to other places. They are literally here for three days, right,
Speaker 2: and while he's here, he's traveling with doctors who would
Speaker 2: probably have rather that he'd stayed home. Also, they've got
Speaker 2: rest days built in and it's all being handled very sensitively,
Speaker 2: but The other reason is I would imagine that the
Speaker 2: reception for Charles and Camilla is so lied on. For example,
Speaker 2: if you go to say the Daily Mail homepage when
Speaker 2: I was coming in here today, it's not even really there.
Speaker 2: It was yesterday when they arrived, but today it's been
Speaker 2: replaced by whatever reality star blah blah like. Normally. Royal's
Speaker 2: wall to wall for this kind of thing is surely
Speaker 2: something about the sort of fading appeal of the monarchy
Speaker 2: full stop. Because while hundreds of people turned out to
Speaker 2: see Charles and Camilla in Sydney yesterday, let's remember that
Speaker 2: in June thousands and thousands of people tested opera house
Speaker 2: security to see YouTube star Mister Beast, and last year
Speaker 2: KSI and Logan Paul actually sent Sydney into a lockdown
Speaker 2: frenzy because so many people came out to see them.
Speaker 2: This isn't how it used to be Back when Queen
Speaker 2: Elizabeth first came to Australia in nineteen fifty four. Obviously
Speaker 2: there weren't so many people here then, but it was
Speaker 2: estimated that three quarters of the population were in her
Speaker 2: physical presence at least once. That's how many people wanted
Speaker 2: to come and see it Now in Australia, only about
Speaker 2: roughly a third of the population cared deeply enough about
Speaker 2: the monarchy to want to get rid of them. Right,
Speaker 2: so about thirty two percent of Australians call themselves Republicans.
Speaker 2: The other two thirds are either love them to bits
Speaker 2: or just don't really care. Is that don't really care
Speaker 2: people who were probably just shrugging and going Is it
Speaker 2: possible that the Royal family, not only here in Australia
Speaker 2: but all over the world might just kind of fade
Speaker 2: away due to lack of interest? Because the truth about
Speaker 2: how we feel about the Royals in twenty twenty four,
Speaker 2: for a lot of people, not all As I learned
Speaker 2: when I wrote something a bit snarky about the Royals
Speaker 2: on the eve of the King's coronation and I got
Speaker 2: absolutely smashed on the Internet for being disrespectful, is that
Speaker 2: for many of the Royals are now just celebrities. And
Speaker 2: whether or not we're interested in particular celebrities depends on
Speaker 2: what they're wearing, how much surgery they've had, how much
Speaker 2: gossip there is in their private life at the moment,
Speaker 2: how much controversy they caught. And Charles and Camilla are
Speaker 2: just a bit.
Speaker 1: I don't know about this. You could be right about Australia.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's true globally, because look at
Speaker 1: William and Kate's last tour, that was to the Caribbean
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two. They went to Jamaica and the
Speaker 1: Bahamas to celebrate the Queen's Platinum Jubilee. That was not
Speaker 1: a lukewarm reception, that was an antagonistic reception. It was
Speaker 1: widely seen as a disaster of a tour. There was
Speaker 1: this tone death moment where they paraded around in a
Speaker 1: jeep and waved at people in a way that felt
Speaker 1: really way too colonial, and.
Speaker 2: They were and the crowds were photographed being behind fences
Speaker 2: and yeah, it was very on the nose. And also
Speaker 2: there were several nations they visited in that time who
Speaker 2: had recently opted to come out of the Commonwealth.
Speaker 1: Yes, which is awkward. Their royal insider has spoken out
Speaker 1: and suggested that there's not going to be any more
Speaker 1: tours like that for William and Kate, and that was
Speaker 1: sort of the last royal tour of that kind with
Speaker 1: that kind of pomp and ceremony. So I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's a lack of interest. It could be that
Speaker 1: there's something about Charles. I mean, his story is so
Speaker 1: tragic and Shakespearean in so many ways, coming onto the
Speaker 1: throne in his seventies, having waited his whole life for it.
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's something more about Charles and Camilla.
Speaker 4: I also think that Australia broadly is it a crossroads.
Speaker 4: We're at a really awkward moment as a nation with
Speaker 4: the Voice referendum being unsuccessful last year. I don't think
Speaker 4: we know where we're at. If that had been successful,
Speaker 4: I think this would be very different. But I don't
Speaker 4: think any of us know what the future.
Speaker 1: How would it have been different.
Speaker 4: I think it would be more antagonistic. I think that
Speaker 4: if Charles and Camilla were here and it had been
Speaker 4: a yes.
Speaker 1: Because we would have defined the parameters of the nation
Speaker 1: to push back on them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4: And even there's a new five dollar bill because of
Speaker 4: course Queen Elizabeth after her passing, they went to change
Speaker 4: the bill and it was decided I think by the
Speaker 4: RBA that they wouldn't put Charles on it. And it's
Speaker 4: me they're doing like an indigenous design. And they had
Speaker 4: this thing where you could submit ideas, and so I
Speaker 4: had never considered that we might just fall out with
Speaker 4: a monarchy and it might just fizzle out, rather than
Speaker 4: it being this massive explosion referendum or something.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because what often comes up and in the
Speaker 2: polling about republicanism when the Queen was alive, a lot
Speaker 2: of Australians said when the Queen dies, we'll be more
Speaker 2: into that. And then the Queen died and Charles took
Speaker 2: the throne, and now almost a third of the people
Speaker 2: polt says when Charles dies, will be more into them.
Speaker 2: And I wonder if there's a Australians are smart and
Speaker 2: they're like, I don't like the idea of the monarchy,
Speaker 2: but it's not really these people's fault. When I was
Speaker 2: talking about I got an enormous backlash when I wrote
Speaker 2: on the eve of the King's coronation, I wrote a
Speaker 2: piece called the Last King of Australia.
Speaker 3: I believe I was only just forgiven you for it.
Speaker 2: I believe Australia should be a republic. But I am
Speaker 2: nothing against Charles himself, like he was born into that system,
Speaker 2: just like William, just like all of them. It's not
Speaker 2: about him. But I think that it would feel almost
Speaker 2: cruel to be very negative about his appearance here.
Speaker 1: You're on just something here. I think Charles has been
Speaker 1: waiting his whole life for this. He hasn't expressed a
Speaker 1: lot of ambivalence about that waiting or about taking on
Speaker 1: that role. William, by contrast, I think it's safe to say,
Speaker 1: has telegraphed to us a profound ambivalence about continuing this.
Speaker 1: His message that he's worried about its effects on his children.
Speaker 1: He's spoken about his desire to try and raise his
Speaker 1: children as normally as possible, in contrast to how he
Speaker 1: was raised as a king in waiting. I wonder if
Speaker 1: William's ambivalence is going to be the permission slip that
Speaker 1: Australia needs to finally servertize.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that we don't hurt anyone's feelings exactly why
Speaker 3: is Charles here?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: Why is here?
Speaker 2: The point of royal tours broadly, and I learned something
Speaker 2: about this in Harry's book. You know, that's one of
Speaker 2: my most studied texts. Spare so obviously the traditional royal
Speaker 2: tour you go to either commonwealth or formerly Commonwealth nations,
Speaker 2: and basically it is a hey, we're still here and
Speaker 2: we remember you or more interested in you, and we
Speaker 2: know what's going on right and it's literally just to
Speaker 2: be seen, because that's the royals job, and you know,
Speaker 2: come and shake hands with the people who are doing
Speaker 2: their good work over here and the people who are
Speaker 2: involved in their various schemes and charities and all those things.
Speaker 2: Obviously today there are for example, at the National War
Speaker 2: Memorial in Canberra, they'll meet with various dignitaries. Usually if
Speaker 2: it was a more expanded tour, they'd meet with lots
Speaker 2: of charity organizations, they'd go and see community groups perform,
Speaker 2: but largely you're there to just go, we see you,
Speaker 2: we remember you now. Harry and Meghan, who are obviously
Speaker 2: starting their sort of version of royal tours over here,
Speaker 2: would also say it's to shine a light on issues
Speaker 2: of importance in parts of the world. So there's also
Speaker 2: they do love that they think that they can direct
Speaker 2: their literary spotlight there, and they're right to a point.
Speaker 2: But also the why is he here is interesting, Jesse,
Speaker 2: because as we said at the beginning, it was going
Speaker 2: to be this big tour of the Pacific, and it's
Speaker 2: been scaled right back to three days and Charles Health
Speaker 2: is obviously not in the best place, but he determined
Speaker 2: to do it, and everybody says he's got this big
Speaker 2: soft spot for Australia. He came to boarding school here
Speaker 2: for a while. He always does lots of embarrassing like
Speaker 2: Australian slang to show how much he gets us and
Speaker 2: all that stuff, because he has said if you want
Speaker 2: to be a republic, yes, it's up to Australia. He
Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be trying to convince us to stay.
Speaker 2: That's the official line, and William is the same. Is
Speaker 2: very much like we're not trying to hold anybody hostage here.
Speaker 2: But I think that the Royal family realizes that every
Speaker 2: time they lose a nation, they lose relevance and importance,
Speaker 2: and they will be whittled down to being like Princess
Speaker 2: Mary and riding a bike around Denmark.
Speaker 1: And William. I've read some analysis by roylandsiders that suggests
Speaker 1: that William wants to act more like a CEO of
Speaker 1: Great Britain rather than that kind of traditional figurehead type role.
Speaker 1: He wants to get involved with causes. Whether that's correct
Speaker 1: or not remains to be seen, But I wonder if
Speaker 1: he inherits that CEO idea. He might not even care
Speaker 1: about having a broader jurisdiction beyond the UK. My only
Speaker 1: remaining question is did Charles bring the man who makes
Speaker 1: the martini for him? Remember that how he always has
Speaker 1: someone trailing behind him to shake up or stir a martini.
Speaker 2: Now and somebody to squeezes toothpaste onto his toothbrush. Of
Speaker 2: course he did.
Speaker 1: I hope it's a Martini card on that seven four seven.
Speaker 3: I hope that his treatment hasn't gotten in the way
Speaker 3: of his martinis.
Speaker 2: Well, I hope not.
Speaker 1: One.
Speaker 4: Unlimited out loud access, we drop episodes every Tuesday and
Speaker 4: Thursday exclusively for Mama Maya subscribers. Follow the link in
Speaker 4: the show notes to get us in your ears five
Speaker 4: days a week. And a huge thank you to all
Speaker 4: our current subscribers.
Speaker 2: Victorious.
Speaker 1: Six years ago, the Victorious Secret Fashion Show was canceled.
Speaker 1: It had been running since two thousand and one. It
Speaker 1: had launched models like Miranda Kerr and Gigi had Died
Speaker 1: into the stratosphere, and at its height it was primetime viewing.
Speaker 1: It reached almost ten million people in twenty thirteen when
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift performed, but in twenty nineteen. It was the
Speaker 1: me too era. It was the first Trump presidency. We
Speaker 1: were wearing pussy hats. The show was literally canceled. Sales
Speaker 1: had already plunged about ten percent year of a year.
Speaker 1: But more to the point, it felt completely out of
Speaker 1: step with the culture. Rihanna had put on her first
Speaker 1: lingerie show at New York Fashion Week the year before.
Speaker 1: Savage X twenty celebrated how diverse in body shape and
Speaker 1: ethnicity and race. That show was the same year Victoria's
Speaker 1: Secrets marketing chief said that transgender models had no place
Speaker 1: in his brand's fantasy. That's his quote, fantasy, not mine,
Speaker 1: and CEO Les Wexner was revealed to have been basically
Speaker 1: bankrolling sex offender Jeffrey Epstein's lifestyle over a decade or
Speaker 1: more so. The show came back this year and they
Speaker 1: made a big show of how enlightened and woke it
Speaker 1: was now. The show featured K pop star Lisa shr
Speaker 1: lots of supermodels. Of course, the voiceover that began the
Speaker 1: show announced that on the runway, it's all about the women.
Speaker 1: But it's safe to say that the reception was a
Speaker 1: little mixed. The New York Times Fashion critic Vanessa Friedman said,
Speaker 1: it's only about the women if you still buy into
Speaker 1: the idea that every woman shares a similar fantasy of
Speaker 1: wanting to be a play act in a present in
Speaker 1: a giant bow, waiting to be literally unwrapped. So what
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about today, though, is not necessarily
Speaker 1: is Victoria's Secret back, because as far as I'm concerned,
Speaker 1: I don't think it really is, and I think the
Speaker 1: show was not seen as an enormous success. But there
Speaker 1: is a theory during the rounds that I wanted to
Speaker 1: bring to you, and I read about it in Puck
Speaker 1: News in a column by their fashion writer Laurence Sherman.
Speaker 1: She said, does the return of the Victoria's Secret Fashion
Speaker 1: Show portend the reelection of Donald Trump? She writes that
Speaker 1: the revival of Victoria's Secret officially marks in some ways
Speaker 1: an official reversal of the broad enlightenment that dawned on
Speaker 1: the culture during the pandemic era, and now that we're
Speaker 1: having it back in our lives again, maybe we're done
Speaker 1: with all that enlightenment and we just want to go
Speaker 1: back to seeing skinny women in fancy bras. And then
Speaker 1: she writes a Trump election might only cement this trend
Speaker 1: in history.
Speaker 2: That's just the most depressing thing.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm your US politics correspondence, so that's what I
Speaker 1: bring to the table.
Speaker 4: Even in terms of Trump, right, there's something hy took
Speaker 4: nostalgia about Trump. The warmth al lot of people feel
Speaker 4: for him is that he's in this figure in America
Speaker 4: that represents this simpler time. It's funny because I'm not
Speaker 4: sure it actually was simpler, but in our minds.
Speaker 1: He was in home alone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, that there's a.
Speaker 2: Warm sex in the city once.
Speaker 3: There's a warmth to it.
Speaker 4: And in particular, I think that the comeback of Victoria's
Speaker 4: Secret in this way, which just felt sort of come
Speaker 4: out of nowhere.
Speaker 2: Nobody asked for it, did they. I was all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, it was all over my feet and I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I thought we were done with this.
Speaker 4: And millennials in particular didn't quite know what to make
Speaker 4: of it because the last time they watched it, they
Speaker 4: were in like a toxic, abusive relationship with the show,
Speaker 4: and then it kind of came back and they were like,
Speaker 4: I am feeling complicated feelings because it's almost and this
Speaker 4: word is overused, but like It's quite triggering for millennials
Speaker 4: because for a lot of them, it was this appointment
Speaker 4: viewing where you would like run home from school. My
Speaker 4: friends were talking about it. You would go home from school,
Speaker 4: sit down, everyone would watch it. You would then hear
Speaker 4: all their diet like Adriana Lima. I remember, like I
Speaker 4: can tell you that she didn't drink water for twelve
Speaker 4: hours before that.
Speaker 1: She also famously said she prepared for this like an athlete,
Speaker 1: and she did not eat for four days before.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and remember she had a baby and then
Speaker 4: she came back like weeks afterwards, and her body was
Speaker 4: this big discussion point that's similar to you and me, right, yes, exactly,
Speaker 4: And we decided to do it from my feather bra yeah,
Speaker 4: not bleeding from every.
Speaker 2: One of my room for a maxi path. In some
Speaker 2: of those there is.
Speaker 1: Not a lot of mesh underwear that you got free
Speaker 1: from the hospital.
Speaker 2: Not good.
Speaker 4: One of my friends was telling me that she worked
Speaker 4: in a gym and she remembers that the day after
Speaker 4: they had to like put on extra staff because the
Speaker 4: day after the Victoria's Secret Show was their busiest day
Speaker 4: of the year. It was just full of women being
Speaker 4: like I need to go and do my crunches.
Speaker 2: And sometimes I'm disappointed in us. All No, where is
Speaker 2: this nonsense.
Speaker 3: It's brain where brainwashed?
Speaker 2: Holley.
Speaker 3: We're broken.
Speaker 1: And when you think about the fact that what really
Speaker 1: did that show in it wasn't really the unrealistic bodies
Speaker 1: that would have continued. It was the worst story of all.
Speaker 1: It was that Jeffrey Epstein, this convicted pedophile, had been
Speaker 1: living this high lifestyle because the CEO of Victoria's Secret
Speaker 1: decided that he was going to paying fifty million dollars
Speaker 1: a year to quote unquote manage his money. It had
Speaker 1: to take that for the Victoria's Secret Show to be dismantled.
Speaker 3: I disagree. It was that.
Speaker 4: I think the thing that made the Victoria's Secret Show dismantled.
Speaker 4: There wasn't appointment viewing anymore. You couldn't get people to
Speaker 4: watch television, so television rates went right down, which is
Speaker 4: the big question, Well, then why is it back?
Speaker 3: The answer always comes back to capitalism. Prime video.
Speaker 4: They were able to show this on Prime Video alongside
Speaker 4: shop the Looks, So this was an exercise in getting
Speaker 4: people to do.
Speaker 1: Did you shop any looks?
Speaker 2: I didn't.
Speaker 3: I didn't shop any looks.
Speaker 2: I did not, although one of my dirty little secrets
Speaker 2: is that many years ago I was in Las Vegas
Speaker 2: and I went into a Victoria's Secret shop and bought
Speaker 2: myself a bra that I would say to this day
Speaker 2: has been my favorite bra. Anyway, that I digress, I.
Speaker 4: Have a confession, Holly, and that is the Victorious Secret
Speaker 4: bikinis were great. They offered really good support, and they've
Speaker 4: stopped uring the bikinis I used to order them from
Speaker 4: the US with all the mark up.
Speaker 2: We need to stop talking about this because we're giving
Speaker 2: them too much credit. Anyway, I'm worried about Amelia's theory
Speaker 2: about trump Ism because I think it's right, because I think,
Speaker 2: obviously Jesse your correct capitalism, et cetera. Also, I think
Speaker 2: that the marketing model of Victorias Secret because I watched
Speaker 2: that documentary, the one that was revealed all the awfulness,
Speaker 2: and it was saying at the beginning, you know men
Speaker 2: by the underwear for women, and so let's sell to
Speaker 2: the men. I'm like, come on, no, modern men are
Speaker 2: buying that. Also, the Victoria's Secret show men never watched that. No,
Speaker 2: they did.
Speaker 4: They did offer me did and maybe they had the
Speaker 4: posters up, but it was the women who like lusted
Speaker 4: over the bodies rather than that.
Speaker 2: But it was well, no, men definitely over the bodies.
Speaker 2: They were like culturally, I remember watching some Australian like
Speaker 2: not The Secret Life of Us, but one of those
Speaker 2: kind of shows, and one of the sticks was all
Speaker 2: the guys getting together pizza ber let's watch Victoria's sek Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: for sure. Men anyway, all those things contributed to its demise.
Speaker 2: Old fashioned business model, blah blah blah blah, appointment viewing.
Speaker 2: But also it was just exceptionally uncool, right, exceptionally uncool
Speaker 2: over the past five years at least, maybe more to
Speaker 2: admit even that that was seductive to you as a woman.
Speaker 2: But now we are in the era of traadwives, and
Speaker 2: we are in the era of going we are tired
Speaker 2: of having to fix everything and represent everything and r
Speaker 2: and I think you're right, there's a retro appeal. The
Speaker 2: whole idea that it could foretell the American election is
Speaker 2: so depressing that it makes my head hurt. But again,
Speaker 2: the thing is is that you're right, Jesse, that there's
Speaker 2: a sort of among a lot of people, there's a
Speaker 2: level of almost affection for Trump as this kind of
Speaker 2: I'm going to use the awful term politically incorrect, but
Speaker 2: you know, non serious figure. But at least he's entertaining,
Speaker 2: And it's the same thing. It's like, we might know
Speaker 2: that it's wrong to elevate these impossible beauty standards, but
Speaker 2: it's entertaining and it's fun, and who doesn't want to
Speaker 2: look at beautiful women wearing diamond bikinis? And like, we're
Speaker 2: in a moment of trying to shrug off the heaviness
Speaker 2: of the world, ironically by possibly ushering in an exceptionally
Speaker 2: heavy and sinister era if Trump does get reelected. But
Speaker 2: I do think there's something to this.
Speaker 1: Well, it's often been said that politics is a pendulum swing,
Speaker 1: and we had a pendulum swing from the first black
Speaker 1: president to Donald Trump and then Joe Biden. He wasn't
Speaker 1: really a pendulum swing. He's just sort of hovering in
Speaker 1: the middle. But then, I mean, the show was playing
Speaker 1: off that idea of nostalgia very explicitly. Kate Moss walks
Speaker 1: to the catwalk, which I know that you would have
Speaker 1: loved Holly, and then her daughter, Lyla Moss also made
Speaker 1: her catwalk debut, So there was this idea of very
Speaker 1: explicitly tapping into nostalgia. I do think that there's a
Speaker 1: sense that people are tired of the often seen as
Speaker 1: the virtue signaling of the last few years, and this
Speaker 1: return to the campusesthetics of Victoria's Secret. Well, at least
Speaker 1: they're fun.
Speaker 2: At least it's fun, and who doesn't like it? And
Speaker 2: do I have to pretend that I don't like it?
Speaker 2: And all of those kind of they.
Speaker 4: Did have to parcel it, and I think that this
Speaker 4: actually speaks to an undermining of feminism more broadly. But
Speaker 4: they know they have to parsele it as feminine.
Speaker 2: There was some diversity on the catalk. I saw thighs,
Speaker 2: and I saw people over the age of thirty yep,
Speaker 2: and tyrol.
Speaker 1: That's interesting that the so called plast sized models were
Speaker 1: the most covered up of all.
Speaker 4: Oh always and Tyra Banks was almost head to toe
Speaker 4: covered up with a cape, with a cape exactly right.
Speaker 4: But there was a line that one of the commentators
Speaker 4: said about how Victoria's Secret is so committed to female
Speaker 4: confidence and so they know that I have to parcel
Speaker 4: it as empowerment and like sell it to us as
Speaker 4: that rather than mutilating.
Speaker 3: That's the thing That's what.
Speaker 1: We've all got to work on. And now we have
Speaker 1: the Maraboo feather brad to do it.
Speaker 2: With, which you can't even wear under a nice T shirt,
Speaker 2: can't you, because those feathers stick out pop in the nose.
Speaker 2: Come on, now, while I've got you here, Amelia, there's
Speaker 2: something I have to ask you about about the reelection
Speaker 2: of Donald Trump. Elon Musk is giving away a million
Speaker 2: dollars a day between now and the election to people
Speaker 2: who sign up to vote Republican? Is that? Did I
Speaker 2: get that right? I saw this head of a label I
Speaker 2: thought I was going to ask.
Speaker 1: The New York Times had a long article today where
Speaker 1: they were asking experts about it because it is potentially
Speaker 1: in violation of federal election laws. But yes, it's true.
Speaker 1: He is giving away one million dollars a day randomly
Speaker 1: to a registered Pennsylvania voter who signs a conservative petition
Speaker 1: put together by his super pack, which basically means his
Speaker 1: like dark money organization that can collect money for Trump
Speaker 1: and funnel it to him without anyone knowing. So, yes,
Speaker 1: it may or may not contravene federal law. But I
Speaker 1: find the mask going all in on Trump thing. It's
Speaker 1: sort of like the worst timeline is the phrase that
Speaker 1: comes to mind when I see the world's richest man
Speaker 1: pushing Donald Trump on everyone.
Speaker 3: But I feel like Elon Musks sat down to watch
Speaker 3: that Victoria's Secret show.
Speaker 1: I can see committed a female confidence. It does beg
Speaker 1: the question of what Mask wants from Trump, because it
Speaker 1: looks sinister to me. It looks sinister.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The bottom line is he wants government money. He wants
Speaker 1: the dialing back of regulations. He wants to put a
Speaker 1: fully autonomous vehicle on the market. Now those have been
Speaker 1: shown to be not very safe, and he wants to
Speaker 1: push aside all the regulations and the safety laws and
Speaker 1: get that on the market. So it's just as sinister
Speaker 1: as you thought.
Speaker 2: Quite a lot of the I mean, I know that
Speaker 2: Musk transcends Silicon Valley, but quite a lot of the
Speaker 2: Silicon Valley tech bros. Trump is these days, aren't they
Speaker 2: And surely it's all about the regulations, right, the looming
Speaker 2: regulation and they're just like no, and he's gonna reward innovation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is how AI ends up taking over the world.
Speaker 2: And there's no But again, back to this idea of
Speaker 2: the way that we consume news. Now, even my kids,
Speaker 2: they know who Trump is, they know who Musk is.
Speaker 2: They're like colorful cartoon characters who they find entertaining and
Speaker 2: they want to watch.
Speaker 1: They're the celebrities that people want to watch. And the
Speaker 1: royals have somehow missed the boat on that.
Speaker 3: Have you ever seen a good TikTok of Charles?
Speaker 1: He needs to give mar Tini maker needs to have
Speaker 1: a TikTok account.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's genius. Embrace it. Embrace the ridiculousness
Speaker 2: of the fact that whatever Charles goes stay anywhere someone
Speaker 2: comes before to hang pictures on the walls and make
Speaker 2: the bed.
Speaker 1: It's the Susan Sarandon's son strategy. He's become a TikTok celebrity,
Speaker 1: embracing the NEPO baby label. Yeah, now Charles can embrace
Speaker 1: the out of touch label. Seth done out Louder.
Speaker 4: If you enjoy listening to this podcast, it would mean
Speaker 4: so much to us if you would be willing to
Speaker 4: take just a few seconds and we're going to ask
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Speaker 2: That's all we've got time for today. Thank you Amelia
Speaker 2: Lester for filling in for me. A freedman, my pleasure.
Speaker 2: It has been great to have you back in the studio.
Speaker 2: Of course, you'll be back later in the week to
Speaker 2: tell us about the latest with the US election, maybe
Speaker 2: with some Victoria's secret underwear not on prony that approriate
Speaker 2: no shit. A massive thank you to all of the
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Speaker 2: fabulous team for putting this show together. We're going to
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Speaker 3: Bye bye.
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Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode description, so