WEBVTT - The Celebrity Who Dated A Witch 0:00:10.287 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:23.567 that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 0:00:23.607 --> 0:00:26.047 Mamma Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking 0:00:26.087 --> 0:00:29.127 about on Monday, the twenty first of October. I'm Holly Wainwright. 0:00:29.287 --> 0:00:30.447 I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:00:30.687 --> 0:00:34.967 Oh louders, see, I'm really on it. It's a very 0:00:35.007 --> 0:00:37.447 Monday Monday for me today, how loud as, maybe you're 0:00:37.487 --> 0:00:40.927 having the same kind of Monday. Welcome to my world. Anyway, 0:00:40.967 --> 0:00:44.727 we are joined today by the wonderful Amelia Lester. I'm 0:00:44.727 --> 0:00:45.807 not going to say no. 0:00:46.767 --> 0:00:50.287 She is the deputy editor of Foreign Policy magazine, and 0:00:50.327 --> 0:00:52.767 we know how many outlouders love her because Amelia is 0:00:52.767 --> 0:00:54.167 the only one getting fan mail. 0:00:54.527 --> 0:00:55.607 So I get fan mail. 0:00:55.647 --> 0:00:59.167 Please. It doesn't work if you have to ask for it. 0:00:59.247 --> 0:01:01.807 Oh yeah, okay, say hello, Amlia please hello. 0:01:02.047 --> 0:01:02.927 So nice to be here. 0:01:02.967 --> 0:01:05.247 You will know Amelia, of course from our subscriber episodes 0:01:05.287 --> 0:01:06.647 on the US election. 0:01:07.007 --> 0:01:08.487 We'll put a link to those in the show notes 0:01:08.527 --> 0:01:11.287 in case you haven't. Anyway, welcome back to the show 0:01:11.287 --> 0:01:14.487 and welcome to our mondayish Monday on today's show, a 0:01:14.527 --> 0:01:18.367 millennial pop icon is dead, and amongst the lurid coverage 0:01:18.367 --> 0:01:21.367 of Liam Payne, a slow grumble is growing about whether 0:01:21.407 --> 0:01:24.447 it can ever be okay for a teenager to become 0:01:24.527 --> 0:01:29.087 world famous. Also, the King is here. Have you noticed 0:01:29.567 --> 0:01:34.207 Australia's so called lazy Republicanism? Welcomes Charles and Camilla And 0:01:34.807 --> 0:01:38.367 does the return of the victorious Secret Fashion Show foretell 0:01:38.487 --> 0:01:39.967 the American election result? 0:01:40.407 --> 0:01:41.047 Stay with us. 0:01:41.087 --> 0:01:44.327 Amelia is going to explain why undies and politics are linked. 0:01:44.647 --> 0:01:47.847 But first, I am so glad to be here today 0:01:47.887 --> 0:01:50.327 because there's a news story that I think when a 0:01:50.327 --> 0:01:52.887 little bit under the radar, which I think needs more attention, 0:01:53.047 --> 0:01:56.007 and that is that Andrew Garfield dated a witch. 0:01:56.327 --> 0:01:58.247 Yes, that is the important headline, and. 0:01:58.207 --> 0:02:03.087 I understand he's now maybe dating a very popular internet journalist. 0:02:03.127 --> 0:02:04.767 But first we're going to talk about the witch bit. 0:02:05.727 --> 0:02:09.247 March twenty twenty four, Universally Love, two time Oscar nominee 0:02:09.287 --> 0:02:12.767 and Spider Man Andrew Garfield is seen at a restaurant 0:02:12.767 --> 0:02:16.967 in Malibu with his new girlfriend Kate Tomas. He was 0:02:16.967 --> 0:02:19.727 on a double dinner date with Phoebe Bridges and Bo Burnham. 0:02:19.767 --> 0:02:22.767 You might remember him from the COVID musical Inside Oh 0:02:22.807 --> 0:02:23.727 We Remember him? 0:02:23.847 --> 0:02:25.167 Yes, And I like. 0:02:25.167 --> 0:02:27.047 That they're hanging out. I like that datail. 0:02:27.167 --> 0:02:29.487 When you go on a double date with other celebrities 0:02:29.527 --> 0:02:32.087 in Malibu, you want people to see you. And then 0:02:32.127 --> 0:02:34.967 they later went to Chiltern Firehouse in London, which is 0:02:35.007 --> 0:02:37.607 I think where all celebrities go when they really want 0:02:37.647 --> 0:02:40.727 to do the hard launch of the new relationship. At 0:02:40.767 --> 0:02:45.007 the time, and Insider told US Weekly that Garfield appreciates 0:02:45.047 --> 0:02:47.847 the fact that Kate is very different from other women 0:02:47.927 --> 0:02:50.127 he's dated. Would you like to know why? 0:02:50.287 --> 0:02:50.567 Yes? 0:02:50.847 --> 0:02:54.047 So Garfield has previously dated reader Aura and Emma Stone. 0:02:54.247 --> 0:02:58.047 Kate Tomas is a professional witch and spiritual mentor. 0:02:58.287 --> 0:02:59.567 Okay, can you unpack? 0:02:59.807 --> 0:02:59.967 Yes? 0:03:00.527 --> 0:03:01.887 What mean by witch? 0:03:02.207 --> 0:03:05.167 Yes? She has a PhD in theology from Oxford, but 0:03:05.207 --> 0:03:08.047 that's not really her witch bit. Her witch bit is 0:03:08.207 --> 0:03:11.327 that The Times of London recently called her Hollywood's favorite witch. 0:03:11.567 --> 0:03:15.167 She says she's worked with Oscar nominated actors, Pulitzer Prize 0:03:15.207 --> 0:03:19.687 winners Fortune five hundred CEOs Lena Dunham gives an endorsement 0:03:19.767 --> 0:03:22.047 on her website and says Kate has kept me out 0:03:22.047 --> 0:03:25.327 of catastrophe time and time again, I die without her. 0:03:25.407 --> 0:03:27.327 So she's kind of like you know how celebrities all 0:03:27.367 --> 0:03:30.527 used to have psychics or astrologers, like Princess Anna had 0:03:30.527 --> 0:03:33.407 an astrologer who she would refer to anytime she had 0:03:33.447 --> 0:03:35.607 a decision to make. So now a witch is a 0:03:35.607 --> 0:03:36.847 cool thing to have on the payroll. 0:03:37.007 --> 0:03:40.447 Speaking of payroll, yes, so she does say that magic 0:03:40.487 --> 0:03:43.927 takes time. It can't happen overnight. And here's the big 0:03:44.047 --> 0:03:46.367 money ask clients need to sign up for a six 0:03:46.407 --> 0:03:49.967 month minimum commitment and it's around eight thousand Ausie dollars 0:03:50.007 --> 0:03:53.607 a month. Eight thousand. She says, I could charge one 0:03:53.647 --> 0:03:56.767 million dollars a session, and that would be completely ethical 0:03:56.767 --> 0:03:58.327 because I'm not exploiting anybody. 0:03:58.567 --> 0:04:01.047 What's she do for you, though? What do you think? 0:04:01.167 --> 0:04:02.967 Do you think she gives you potions and stuff? 0:04:03.287 --> 0:04:05.327 She doesn't really talk about it very much. But here's 0:04:05.327 --> 0:04:07.727 the good news. For around one hundred and thirty dollars, 0:04:07.807 --> 0:04:12.287 you can attend her seduction mass class, which is online. 0:04:11.927 --> 0:04:14.447 So that you too can date Andrew Garfield. 0:04:15.127 --> 0:04:17.647 Well. In July, she shut down rumors that she'd use 0:04:17.767 --> 0:04:20.927 magic to seduce him, and she was forced to temporarily 0:04:20.967 --> 0:04:23.767 shut down the seduction masterclass because of what she called 0:04:23.807 --> 0:04:28.527 horrific accusations that she had one Andrew Garfield's affections through 0:04:28.527 --> 0:04:29.367 magic spells. 0:04:29.607 --> 0:04:30.847 Why wouldn't you if you could? 0:04:30.967 --> 0:04:33.727 No, Absolutely, she did get a lot of online hate. 0:04:33.807 --> 0:04:36.087 I have to say people did not like him dating 0:04:36.127 --> 0:04:39.247 a witch. That's because witches are not traditionally very popular. 0:04:39.487 --> 0:04:41.647 If you look back to the Salem witch trials on 0:04:42.727 --> 0:04:44.167 they're not popular witches. 0:04:45.607 --> 0:04:47.327 It's been a problem for some time. 0:04:47.807 --> 0:04:50.487 We used to burn them. So she told The Times 0:04:50.487 --> 0:04:53.647 that to deal with this online hate, she has some 0:04:53.727 --> 0:04:56.847 various techniques. These are some of her magic techniques. Screaming 0:04:56.887 --> 0:05:01.327 into a pillow, doing a cord cutting spell, or putting 0:05:01.367 --> 0:05:04.807 a dome of energy like a belja over somebody that's 0:05:04.927 --> 0:05:08.647 actively harmful. I don't know she means a literal beljar, 0:05:08.727 --> 0:05:10.567 because you a really big one. You'd have to order 0:05:10.647 --> 0:05:11.727 one on or something. 0:05:11.767 --> 0:05:15.607 Make a little doll that is apparently, and then you 0:05:15.647 --> 0:05:19.447 put the bell jar over. Yes, let's do that for me. 0:05:20.287 --> 0:05:22.047 I scream into a pillow all the time. 0:05:24.127 --> 0:05:26.287 That was magic or that I need to debate eight 0:05:26.287 --> 0:05:30.767 thousand dollars a month. No, that's you being a witch. 0:05:31.567 --> 0:05:35.487 Next time you do it just say master, do some witchcraft. Okay, 0:05:35.567 --> 0:05:38.527 she might be screaming into a pillow right now because 0:05:38.887 --> 0:05:42.607 the Internet loves Garfield's new love interest. Who is the 0:05:42.607 --> 0:05:45.567 host of Chicken Shop Date Amelia de Moldenburg. 0:05:45.727 --> 0:05:48.287 Surely not, not because I don't think they would date, 0:05:48.327 --> 0:05:52.807 but like, doesn't she professionally date people? Yes, dates in 0:05:52.807 --> 0:05:54.127 inverted commas. 0:05:53.687 --> 0:05:57.607 But in terms of Internet law, what has happened is 0:05:57.647 --> 0:06:00.447 that they have had a few meat cutes on, like 0:06:00.527 --> 0:06:04.687 red carpets and stuff. There is palpable chemistry that people 0:06:04.767 --> 0:06:07.007 are just so invested in, and now they've sat down 0:06:07.487 --> 0:06:11.367 and done a proper Chicken Shop date. Now Amelia has 0:06:11.407 --> 0:06:14.807 been doing this ten years. She goes and speaks to celebrities. 0:06:14.847 --> 0:06:18.127 It started in a real kind of date way where 0:06:18.127 --> 0:06:20.967 she would sit down with a guy and the chicken 0:06:20.967 --> 0:06:23.447 shop stick in the UK, as you would know, Holly 0:06:23.647 --> 0:06:24.047 is like. 0:06:24.087 --> 0:06:25.687 Can you explain that? Well? 0:06:25.727 --> 0:06:28.047 The chicken was like, well, what would be the equivalent? 0:06:28.127 --> 0:06:31.847 It's almost like fish and chip a kebab shop. Yeah, 0:06:31.847 --> 0:06:35.247 it's an unglamorous but very popular place where you would 0:06:35.247 --> 0:06:38.487 go and have chicken and chips, and many different kinds 0:06:38.527 --> 0:06:42.007 of chicken would be available. Anyway, I guess the idea 0:06:42.327 --> 0:06:45.127 is the stick was take a glamorous person, put them 0:06:45.167 --> 0:06:48.807 in an unglamorous setting, talk to her an ordinary person. 0:06:48.887 --> 0:06:51.407 And the thing that's always been her great stick is 0:06:51.407 --> 0:06:54.247 that even before now she's a big deal, she's a celebrity, 0:06:54.687 --> 0:06:56.767 but when she started out, I guess the stick was 0:06:57.487 --> 0:06:59.967 ordinary girl with a lot of confidence. I reckon I 0:07:00.007 --> 0:07:02.367 could date any of these people, and that. 0:07:02.247 --> 0:07:04.687 They're here because they genuinely want a date mates. And 0:07:04.727 --> 0:07:07.607 that's why it works, I think is that it's so 0:07:08.407 --> 0:07:11.007 transgressive in a way because often you see with think 0:07:11.087 --> 0:07:14.287 late night shows or whatever, there's this pandering, there's this 0:07:14.527 --> 0:07:18.647 like submissiveness to the celebrity. But this is like, she's 0:07:18.687 --> 0:07:21.167 a powerful one for absolutely. 0:07:20.527 --> 0:07:21.407 No reason exactly. 0:07:21.447 --> 0:07:24.247 So she sits there and then you've got Paul mescal 0:07:24.487 --> 0:07:26.607 or you've got I mean, she's interviewed everyone, but Andrew 0:07:26.607 --> 0:07:28.767 Garfield sits down and she's like, impress me. 0:07:28.847 --> 0:07:31.527 But are you not seeing the Venn diagram here between 0:07:31.687 --> 0:07:38.527 professional seduction technique teacher and Amelia who is a professional flirt. 0:07:38.607 --> 0:07:42.007 That's kind of interesting, is interesting and can we hear? 0:07:42.327 --> 0:07:43.007 I thought the. 0:07:42.927 --> 0:07:46.927 Way that this interview started was very interesting. Can we agree, 0:07:46.967 --> 0:07:48.767 there's a bit of a curse on this. What do 0:07:48.847 --> 0:07:50.847 you mean like a bad cast in the sense of, like, 0:07:51.127 --> 0:07:56.447 you know, we've had a couple of lovely interactions. What's 0:07:56.487 --> 0:07:56.927 going on. 0:07:57.567 --> 0:07:59.607 Well, he knows a lot about curses. He knows a 0:07:59.607 --> 0:08:02.807 lot about maybe Kate, his ex, has put a curse 0:08:02.847 --> 0:08:07.887 on Amelia. You never know screaming poisoned her chicken. Don't 0:08:07.967 --> 0:08:10.487 touch the burger, don't touch it. 0:08:10.727 --> 0:08:12.887 But stepping back, I can't help but feel a bit 0:08:12.927 --> 0:08:16.087 cynical about this him starting with the curse. He knows 0:08:16.127 --> 0:08:18.607 what he's doing here. He's got a film to promote 0:08:18.607 --> 0:08:21.287 with Florence Pwitt's, a romance called We Live in Time. 0:08:21.887 --> 0:08:25.767 He's become a little bit of a kind of professional 0:08:25.847 --> 0:08:27.887 boyfriend figure on the internet. 0:08:28.527 --> 0:08:31.327 I think he is so charismatic. Did you see what 0:08:31.327 --> 0:08:33.447 he did on Sethame Street? Tell me he did this 0:08:33.447 --> 0:08:35.247 thing with Elmo where he sat down and spoke to 0:08:35.247 --> 0:08:36.207 Elmo about grief. 0:08:36.247 --> 0:08:37.087 It was beautiful. 0:08:37.447 --> 0:08:39.967 He is so rogue, I think because he's British, he 0:08:40.007 --> 0:08:42.927 gets away with a lot very clever. He's very, very clever, 0:08:43.007 --> 0:08:44.127 he's very very sexy. 0:08:44.287 --> 0:08:49.327 British people can get away with anything in America, Fordney Exactly. 0:08:51.207 --> 0:08:56.647 Broo cuteh. 0:08:56.527 --> 0:08:57.247 On Wednesday. 0:08:57.327 --> 0:09:01.207 Last week, Liam Payne, former member of One Direction, died 0:09:01.247 --> 0:09:04.047 at thirty one years old after falling from the balcony 0:09:04.247 --> 0:09:05.447 in Buenos Aires. 0:09:05.767 --> 0:09:08.287 The shock over the death of One Direction star Liam 0:09:08.327 --> 0:09:11.727 Payne has continued across the weekend as his father Jeff 0:09:11.807 --> 0:09:14.327 traveled to Argentina to arrange for the return of his 0:09:14.407 --> 0:09:17.407 son's body to England. Mister Paine was taken to the 0:09:17.447 --> 0:09:20.367 Morgue not long after arriving in the country to identify 0:09:20.447 --> 0:09:23.647 his son's body before he headed to the prosecutor's office 0:09:23.687 --> 0:09:26.007 to organize a repatriation of his remains. 0:09:26.127 --> 0:09:29.607 That was Claire Murphy from today's episode of The Quickie 0:09:29.607 --> 0:09:33.767 where they covered what has unfolded since Wednesday. I just 0:09:33.807 --> 0:09:35.807 want to go back a few steps for anyone who 0:09:35.927 --> 0:09:39.807 wasn't a One Direction superfan. So Payne was fourteen when 0:09:39.807 --> 0:09:41.927 he first tried out for The X Factor, but it 0:09:41.967 --> 0:09:44.727 was the second time he auditioned in twenty ten that 0:09:44.807 --> 0:09:45.887 his life changed. 0:09:45.927 --> 0:09:46.447 Overnight. 0:09:47.047 --> 0:09:50.327 He entered as a solo act along with Niall Horn, 0:09:50.647 --> 0:09:54.847 Zaye Mallick, Louis Tomlinson and Harry Styles, but Judge and 0:09:54.887 --> 0:09:58.327 Record executive Simon Cowell decided to try them as a band, 0:09:58.647 --> 0:10:01.647 and they placed third in the competition, but One Direction 0:10:01.767 --> 0:10:03.927 would go on to become one of the best selling 0:10:03.967 --> 0:10:08.047 bands of all time. By twenty fifteen, Zaye Mallick decided 0:10:08.087 --> 0:10:10.567 to leave with an a fisih statement that read, I 0:10:10.607 --> 0:10:12.567 am leaving because I want to be a normal twenty 0:10:12.567 --> 0:10:14.887 two year old who is able to relax and have 0:10:15.047 --> 0:10:18.247 some private time out of the spotlight. They went on 0:10:18.327 --> 0:10:22.207 an indefinite hiatus in twenty sixteen and never performed together again. 0:10:22.487 --> 0:10:25.847 Speaking over the weekend, Guy Chambers, one of the leading 0:10:25.887 --> 0:10:29.487 songwriters in the UK, said under eighteen's should not be 0:10:29.567 --> 0:10:33.127 allowed to join pop bands. Chambers worked with Robbie Williams 0:10:33.247 --> 0:10:37.047 and said there were no protections set up. Documentary maker 0:10:37.167 --> 0:10:39.927 Louis Thrue has a new series set to be released 0:10:39.967 --> 0:10:43.167 next month which is actually all about the dramatic highs 0:10:43.167 --> 0:10:46.967 and depths of despair young stardom can bring, and he 0:10:47.087 --> 0:10:50.527 explores this with the likes of Robbie Williams and Brian McFadden. 0:10:51.207 --> 0:10:53.567 A contestant who was on the same season of The 0:10:53.687 --> 0:10:56.167 X Factor as Pain has just said in the last 0:10:56.207 --> 0:10:59.247 week that the exploitation of young stars leaves many of 0:10:59.287 --> 0:11:03.287 them living with PTSD. Pain had spoken about struggling with 0:11:03.327 --> 0:11:06.887 alcoholism and the experience of being locked in hotel rooms 0:11:06.927 --> 0:11:10.327 with a mini bar between gigs. Also spoken about the 0:11:10.327 --> 0:11:11.887 loneliness of hotel rooms. 0:11:12.047 --> 0:11:14.327 My dad said it from day one, lonely hotel rooms, ma'am. 0:11:14.367 --> 0:11:16.127 Getting locked in that room is not fun. I was 0:11:16.127 --> 0:11:17.847 worried how far my rock button was going to be? 0:11:18.047 --> 0:11:19.887 Where's rock button for me? And you would never have 0:11:19.887 --> 0:11:21.487 seen it. I'm very good at hiding it. No one 0:11:21.487 --> 0:11:23.607 would ever have seen it. But rock button, I mean, 0:11:23.647 --> 0:11:24.887 I don't even know if I hit it yet. 0:11:24.927 --> 0:11:25.207 Holly. 0:11:25.287 --> 0:11:29.167 Fans of One Direction knew that Payne had struggled basically 0:11:29.207 --> 0:11:32.847 since the band rose to fame. Should we be rethinking 0:11:32.967 --> 0:11:36.527 kids working in the entertainment industry? And is that even realistic? 0:11:37.927 --> 0:11:40.927 It's really interesting, isn't it? Because the fact that fame 0:11:40.967 --> 0:11:43.527 and fortune is terrible for mental health, full stop, but 0:11:43.567 --> 0:11:47.087 it's terrible, terrible for mental health of young people is 0:11:47.127 --> 0:11:50.487 not news, right. The curse of the child star is 0:11:50.847 --> 0:11:52.727 a thing, so much of a thing, it's a cliche. 0:11:52.807 --> 0:11:55.047 And think about Britney Spears, and think about Miley Cyrus, 0:11:55.087 --> 0:11:57.327 and think about Michael Jackson, and think about Justin Bieber, 0:11:57.367 --> 0:11:59.367 and you could go on and on and on and 0:11:59.407 --> 0:12:03.407 on and on, right, but it doesn't stop everybody from 0:12:03.487 --> 0:12:06.167 wanting it. So I watched The Voice and stuff with 0:12:06.167 --> 0:12:08.287 my kids, and obviously the Voice isn't what it was 0:12:08.327 --> 0:12:10.727 but in its heyday where these kind of bands started, 0:12:10.767 --> 0:12:12.807 just like The X Factor, just like Idol. This year 0:12:12.807 --> 0:12:14.647 they had a thirteen year old on last year they 0:12:14.687 --> 0:12:17.087 had a twelve year old on a fifteen year old one. 0:12:17.127 --> 0:12:20.287 It wants the Australian version, I mean, and every time 0:12:20.327 --> 0:12:23.767 you watch that happen, the parents and the people around 0:12:23.767 --> 0:12:26.527 those kids will say, I couldn't stop this kid from 0:12:26.527 --> 0:12:29.767 doing this if I wanted to, Like, they are so driven, 0:12:29.887 --> 0:12:30.887 they want it so much. 0:12:30.887 --> 0:12:31.527 Do you think that's true? 0:12:31.607 --> 0:12:34.447 It's their dream? Well? I think it probably is true, 0:12:34.447 --> 0:12:36.807 because as I say about how it's the attraction of fame, 0:12:36.847 --> 0:12:40.127 of fortune, despite all we know about it is intractable. 0:12:40.127 --> 0:12:42.487 It's kind of like the Princess curse. Right, we all 0:12:42.527 --> 0:12:44.407 know that that's terrible for you too, but it doesn't 0:12:44.407 --> 0:12:47.527 stop everybody from swooning. When Harry and Meghan got married. 0:12:48.367 --> 0:12:51.887 I think that young people want to be famous, you 0:12:51.927 --> 0:12:54.367 know now they want to be YouTubers, they want to 0:12:54.407 --> 0:12:58.527 be all over TikTok and Instagram. They want to be 0:12:58.847 --> 0:13:01.247 It looks great. And if you also love music and 0:13:01.287 --> 0:13:03.207 you also love all those things and the fact that 0:13:03.247 --> 0:13:06.487 the consumers of so much pop music are young, then 0:13:06.487 --> 0:13:09.047 it seems to make absolute sense. The thing that is 0:13:09.087 --> 0:13:12.887 so sad about this is that it was so predictable 0:13:13.047 --> 0:13:15.887 in a way because Robbie Williams, who you mentioned in 0:13:15.887 --> 0:13:18.727 the intro, who joined Take That who was the one 0:13:18.727 --> 0:13:21.087 direction of the nineties, and in those days it wasn't 0:13:21.087 --> 0:13:22.887 a reality show. It was literally an ad in a 0:13:22.927 --> 0:13:26.407 newspaper looking for hot young boys who can sing and dance. 0:13:26.727 --> 0:13:29.727 And he was sixteen when he joined that band, and 0:13:29.807 --> 0:13:32.647 he has been so open about what that did to him, 0:13:32.927 --> 0:13:35.687 and he left when he was nineteen twenty, I think, 0:13:35.727 --> 0:13:37.767 and went on to be like, we've seen it over 0:13:37.847 --> 0:13:40.527 and over again, and yet still when somebody dies in 0:13:40.567 --> 0:13:43.887 this circumstance, we're so shocked. Personally. I think, yes, we 0:13:43.927 --> 0:13:47.447 should really be looking at more protectionism for these young kids, 0:13:47.767 --> 0:13:50.847 because it just very rarely seems to end well. 0:13:50.967 --> 0:13:54.447 It's harder to think of the young pop stars who've thrived. 0:13:55.167 --> 0:13:56.847 I mean, the only one that I could really come 0:13:56.927 --> 0:13:59.967 up with was Taylor Swift. Even Demi Lovato, who's still 0:14:00.047 --> 0:14:03.207 very much a successful artist, just released this documentary this year, 0:14:03.287 --> 0:14:06.247 Child's Star, which shows that she's struggled with addiction and 0:14:06.287 --> 0:14:08.567 many other problems as a result of her child's stardom. 0:14:08.807 --> 0:14:12.207 Miley Virus, I suppose you could argue has done very well. 0:14:12.247 --> 0:14:15.647 And there's often a lot of very complicated family dynamics 0:14:15.647 --> 0:14:17.327 at play too, which I think is what you were 0:14:17.367 --> 0:14:20.167 sort of getting at before, Jesse, the question of how 0:14:20.247 --> 0:14:22.687 much of this is a push from parents to attain 0:14:22.767 --> 0:14:25.767 financial security and glamorous lifestyle, and how much is that 0:14:25.887 --> 0:14:27.047 kids really wanting to do this. 0:14:27.727 --> 0:14:29.807 I think the other example is Harry Styles. 0:14:30.367 --> 0:14:33.127 Well, yeah, but I wouldn't say that because I think 0:14:34.007 --> 0:14:35.567 one of the things that Harry Styles has done very 0:14:35.567 --> 0:14:39.167 successfully is he's very private. Considering how famous Harry Styles is, 0:14:39.727 --> 0:14:43.207 I have never publicly seen him in any circumstance with 0:14:43.247 --> 0:14:45.447 a partner, you know what I mean, like pat pictures only. 0:14:45.767 --> 0:14:48.087 He is intensely private. None of us would have any 0:14:48.127 --> 0:14:50.567 idea about the state of Harry Styles's mental health, and 0:14:50.607 --> 0:14:53.407 he you know, even In some of his most famous 0:14:53.407 --> 0:14:57.447 pop songs, he references pills and loneliness and family problems 0:14:57.447 --> 0:15:00.487 like he seems to be doing well now, like great, 0:15:00.687 --> 0:15:01.207 you know, but. 0:15:01.527 --> 0:15:05.127 Yeah, I read a reference to a study recently. There 0:15:05.167 --> 0:15:07.167 was a study done in sort of second half the 0:15:07.167 --> 0:15:11.247 twentieth century on people who who had chart topping singles, 0:15:11.727 --> 0:15:15.127 and if you had a chart topping single, you were 0:15:15.487 --> 0:15:18.327 three times more likely to die than someone who didn't. 0:15:18.327 --> 0:15:23.007 These were adults, right, and more likely to die from alcoholism, 0:15:23.567 --> 0:15:27.407 accidents and chronic illness that's often caused by drug use 0:15:27.487 --> 0:15:28.327 or something like that. 0:15:28.967 --> 0:15:31.207 The effects of that on the teenage brain. 0:15:31.527 --> 0:15:33.047 I mean, I don't think you need to do a 0:15:33.087 --> 0:15:37.727 research study to show that it's even bigger. And the 0:15:37.767 --> 0:15:39.447 second thing that that study couldn't take. 0:15:39.327 --> 0:15:42.207 Into account was the Internet because the Internet wasn't around yet. 0:15:42.007 --> 0:15:47.167 So imagine that too. Liam Payne, he had a really 0:15:48.127 --> 0:15:51.607 complicated relationship with fame and even you know, in the 0:15:51.647 --> 0:15:54.807 weeks before his death, he had a former girlfriend who 0:15:55.167 --> 0:15:59.607 had filed for a season desist. Alcoholism was something that 0:15:59.687 --> 0:16:02.247 we heard him talk about, and he did this interview 0:16:02.367 --> 0:16:05.247 with Logan Paul like a podcast interview where he appeared 0:16:05.247 --> 0:16:07.847 to be under the influence of alcohol, and in some 0:16:08.527 --> 0:16:11.007 respects corners of the internet that treated him like a 0:16:11.087 --> 0:16:15.567 laughing stock, really because he had had these dizzying highs 0:16:15.887 --> 0:16:20.927 like Harry Styles, and then he was sort of thrown out. Well, 0:16:21.087 --> 0:16:24.207 felt like he was a bit thrown out after one direction. 0:16:24.407 --> 0:16:28.767 And I found what he said about hotel rooms really 0:16:29.447 --> 0:16:32.687 telling and insightful, because there is something about the hotel 0:16:32.767 --> 0:16:35.007 room that you see in a lot of these stories. 0:16:35.367 --> 0:16:38.207 And I often think about if you are on stage. 0:16:38.447 --> 0:16:41.047 There's a famous story about Liam Payne a fan sort 0:16:41.087 --> 0:16:43.127 of trying to rip his ear off. Is how much 0:16:43.167 --> 0:16:45.247 this fan wants a piece of him. Imagine what that 0:16:45.367 --> 0:16:47.727 does to your nervous system and your adrenaline. And you're 0:16:47.767 --> 0:16:50.807 on stage and you're feeling these highs that the average 0:16:50.807 --> 0:16:53.847 person will never ever experience, and then you go back 0:16:54.087 --> 0:16:59.367 to a silent, dark, empty hotel room. And I've heard 0:16:59.407 --> 0:17:01.687 famous people talk about this, the only way to chase 0:17:01.727 --> 0:17:04.567 that high is through substance. To sit there with your 0:17:04.607 --> 0:17:09.247 own thoughts would be such a confronting experience. 0:17:09.327 --> 0:17:12.247 And also the reason why fame is so at this 0:17:12.327 --> 0:17:16.007 particular level. We've been hearing people telling us these stories. 0:17:16.047 --> 0:17:19.367 For you know almost one hundred years, but we don't 0:17:19.407 --> 0:17:22.127 want to hear them because to our lives, our ordinary lives, 0:17:22.167 --> 0:17:24.887 how could it possibly not be amazing to get everything 0:17:24.887 --> 0:17:27.047 you want, doing something you love, all the money in 0:17:27.087 --> 0:17:30.127 the world, all the adelation in the world, traveling everywhere. 0:17:30.447 --> 0:17:32.247 But the reality of it is is you're taking a 0:17:32.287 --> 0:17:36.287 young person, taking them away from everything that connects them 0:17:36.327 --> 0:17:40.207 to reality because you're constantly traveling, I mean constantly. As 0:17:40.247 --> 0:17:43.287 Robbie Williams said famously, you can't trust anybody once you're 0:17:43.287 --> 0:17:46.007 at that level of fame because everybody wants something from you. 0:17:46.007 --> 0:17:48.807 You're paying everybody's bills, or they want you to, you know, 0:17:48.887 --> 0:17:51.327 listen to my tape, take me this, this, or I 0:17:51.367 --> 0:17:53.047 want to get a secret about you that I can 0:17:53.127 --> 0:17:56.127 sell to somebody. You are a commodity. Once you've lost 0:17:56.127 --> 0:18:00.727 your band of brothers, that's even more difficult because at least, 0:18:00.727 --> 0:18:02.927 if you're all in it together, you're all in it together. 0:18:03.127 --> 0:18:05.727 But once that falls apart, which inevitably it always seems 0:18:05.767 --> 0:18:09.767 to do. You never really get five massive stars out 0:18:09.767 --> 0:18:12.287 of a band once they break up. History tells us 0:18:12.287 --> 0:18:15.327 there will be one or two big breakout stars and 0:18:15.367 --> 0:18:17.567 then everybody else will always be for the rest of 0:18:17.607 --> 0:18:20.207 their life. That guy who used to be in one 0:18:20.287 --> 0:18:22.647 direction are Isn't it sad that he's not Harry Styles? 0:18:22.767 --> 0:18:24.887 Or you know, in Robbie Williams's case, and again he 0:18:24.927 --> 0:18:27.767 spoke about this lots in his amazing documentary. He had 0:18:27.807 --> 0:18:30.207 times when he was, as he described it, the center 0:18:30.207 --> 0:18:32.447 of the pop culture universe, and then he had times 0:18:32.487 --> 0:18:35.527 already is mocked, has been sad, not what you were. 0:18:35.567 --> 0:18:40.047 So you've got intense scrutiny, criticism, separation from everybody who 0:18:40.087 --> 0:18:43.727 loves you in real life, constant traveling, access to everything. 0:18:44.287 --> 0:18:46.967 If you're rich enough and famous enough, you can get 0:18:47.007 --> 0:18:49.527 whatever you want whenever you want it. And a lot 0:18:49.527 --> 0:18:51.127 of what we want is not what we should have. 0:18:51.767 --> 0:18:53.087 How could it end any other way? 0:18:53.247 --> 0:18:55.527 You're making me think about a story that's going to 0:18:55.527 --> 0:18:58.047 be slightly annoying because I can't name the person involved 0:18:58.087 --> 0:18:59.807 in it. But in my twenties, I was living in 0:18:59.847 --> 0:19:02.047 New York and I became friends through a friend of 0:19:02.087 --> 0:19:05.767 mine with a young actress who was also in her 0:19:05.767 --> 0:19:08.967 early twenties and moved to Hollywood around twenty five. And 0:19:09.007 --> 0:19:12.087 there was in a show that we would have all 0:19:12.167 --> 0:19:14.887 seen and I used to see her whenever I went 0:19:14.927 --> 0:19:17.047 to Los Angeles, sort of once a year or so, 0:19:17.327 --> 0:19:21.207 and over the years she became stranger and stranger as 0:19:21.207 --> 0:19:23.647 her star wars in Hollywood. For a start, her nose 0:19:23.727 --> 0:19:26.527 became narrower and narrower, because every time I saw her 0:19:27.007 --> 0:19:30.487 she'd undergone some kind of alteration. The last time I 0:19:30.527 --> 0:19:32.847 saw her, we went out for lunch and she ordered 0:19:32.927 --> 0:19:36.247 a salad of a arugula of rocket salad with a 0:19:36.407 --> 0:19:40.287 side of boiled spinach, and that was her lunch and 0:19:40.327 --> 0:19:42.247 I didn't see her after that, in part because she 0:19:42.327 --> 0:19:45.287