1
00:00:10,287 --> 00:00:13,047
Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

2
00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

3
00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:23,567
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

4
00:00:23,607 --> 00:00:26,047
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking

5
00:00:26,087 --> 00:00:29,127
Speaker 2: about on Monday, the twenty first of October. I'm Holly Wainwright.

6
00:00:29,287 --> 00:00:30,447
Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens.

7
00:00:30,687 --> 00:00:34,967
Speaker 2: Oh louders, see, I'm really on it. It's a very

8
00:00:35,007 --> 00:00:37,447
Speaker 2: Monday Monday for me today, how loud as, maybe you're

9
00:00:37,487 --> 00:00:40,927
Speaker 2: having the same kind of Monday. Welcome to my world. Anyway,

10
00:00:40,967 --> 00:00:44,727
Speaker 2: we are joined today by the wonderful Amelia Lester. I'm

11
00:00:44,727 --> 00:00:45,807
Speaker 2: not going to say no.

12
00:00:46,767 --> 00:00:50,287
Speaker 4: She is the deputy editor of Foreign Policy magazine, and

13
00:00:50,327 --> 00:00:52,767
Speaker 4: we know how many outlouders love her because Amelia is

14
00:00:52,767 --> 00:00:54,167
Speaker 4: the only one getting fan mail.

15
00:00:54,527 --> 00:00:55,607
Speaker 3: So I get fan mail.

16
00:00:55,647 --> 00:00:59,167
Speaker 2: Please. It doesn't work if you have to ask for it.

17
00:00:59,247 --> 00:01:01,807
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, okay, say hello, Amlia please hello.

18
00:01:02,047 --> 00:01:02,927
Speaker 1: So nice to be here.

19
00:01:02,967 --> 00:01:05,247
Speaker 4: You will know Amelia, of course from our subscriber episodes

20
00:01:05,287 --> 00:01:06,647
Speaker 4: on the US election.

21
00:01:07,007 --> 00:01:08,487
Speaker 2: We'll put a link to those in the show notes

22
00:01:08,527 --> 00:01:11,287
Speaker 2: in case you haven't. Anyway, welcome back to the show

23
00:01:11,287 --> 00:01:14,487
Speaker 2: and welcome to our mondayish Monday on today's show, a

24
00:01:14,527 --> 00:01:18,367
Speaker 2: millennial pop icon is dead, and amongst the lurid coverage

25
00:01:18,367 --> 00:01:21,367
Speaker 2: of Liam Payne, a slow grumble is growing about whether

26
00:01:21,407 --> 00:01:24,447
Speaker 2: it can ever be okay for a teenager to become

27
00:01:24,527 --> 00:01:29,087
Speaker 2: world famous. Also, the King is here. Have you noticed

28
00:01:29,567 --> 00:01:34,207
Speaker 2: Australia's so called lazy Republicanism? Welcomes Charles and Camilla And

29
00:01:34,807 --> 00:01:38,367
Speaker 2: does the return of the victorious Secret Fashion Show foretell

30
00:01:38,487 --> 00:01:39,967
Speaker 2: the American election result?

31
00:01:40,407 --> 00:01:41,047
Speaker 3: Stay with us.

32
00:01:41,087 --> 00:01:44,327
Speaker 2: Amelia is going to explain why undies and politics are linked.

33
00:01:44,647 --> 00:01:47,847
Speaker 1: But first, I am so glad to be here today

34
00:01:47,887 --> 00:01:50,327
Speaker 1: because there's a news story that I think when a

35
00:01:50,327 --> 00:01:52,887
Speaker 1: little bit under the radar, which I think needs more attention,

36
00:01:53,047 --> 00:01:56,007
Speaker 1: and that is that Andrew Garfield dated a witch.

37
00:01:56,327 --> 00:01:58,247
Speaker 3: Yes, that is the important headline, and.

38
00:01:58,207 --> 00:02:03,087
Speaker 1: I understand he's now maybe dating a very popular internet journalist.

39
00:02:03,127 --> 00:02:04,767
Speaker 1: But first we're going to talk about the witch bit.

40
00:02:05,727 --> 00:02:09,247
Speaker 1: March twenty twenty four, Universally Love, two time Oscar nominee

41
00:02:09,287 --> 00:02:12,767
Speaker 1: and Spider Man Andrew Garfield is seen at a restaurant

42
00:02:12,767 --> 00:02:16,967
Speaker 1: in Malibu with his new girlfriend Kate Tomas. He was

43
00:02:16,967 --> 00:02:19,727
Speaker 1: on a double dinner date with Phoebe Bridges and Bo Burnham.

44
00:02:19,767 --> 00:02:22,767
Speaker 1: You might remember him from the COVID musical Inside Oh

45
00:02:22,807 --> 00:02:23,727
Speaker 1: We Remember him?

46
00:02:23,847 --> 00:02:25,167
Speaker 2: Yes, And I like.

47
00:02:25,167 --> 00:02:27,047
Speaker 3: That they're hanging out. I like that datail.

48
00:02:27,167 --> 00:02:29,487
Speaker 1: When you go on a double date with other celebrities

49
00:02:29,527 --> 00:02:32,087
Speaker 1: in Malibu, you want people to see you. And then

50
00:02:32,127 --> 00:02:34,967
Speaker 1: they later went to Chiltern Firehouse in London, which is

51
00:02:35,007 --> 00:02:37,607
Speaker 1: I think where all celebrities go when they really want

52
00:02:37,647 --> 00:02:40,727
Speaker 1: to do the hard launch of the new relationship. At

53
00:02:40,767 --> 00:02:45,007
Speaker 1: the time, and Insider told US Weekly that Garfield appreciates

54
00:02:45,047 --> 00:02:47,847
Speaker 1: the fact that Kate is very different from other women

55
00:02:47,927 --> 00:02:50,127
Speaker 1: he's dated. Would you like to know why?

56
00:02:50,287 --> 00:02:50,567
Speaker 2: Yes?

57
00:02:50,847 --> 00:02:54,047
Speaker 1: So Garfield has previously dated reader Aura and Emma Stone.

58
00:02:54,247 --> 00:02:58,047
Speaker 1: Kate Tomas is a professional witch and spiritual mentor.

59
00:02:58,287 --> 00:02:59,567
Speaker 3: Okay, can you unpack?

60
00:02:59,807 --> 00:02:59,967
Speaker 1: Yes?

61
00:03:00,527 --> 00:03:01,887
Speaker 3: What mean by witch?

62
00:03:02,207 --> 00:03:05,167
Speaker 1: Yes? She has a PhD in theology from Oxford, but

63
00:03:05,207 --> 00:03:08,047
Speaker 1: that's not really her witch bit. Her witch bit is

64
00:03:08,207 --> 00:03:11,327
Speaker 1: that The Times of London recently called her Hollywood's favorite witch.

65
00:03:11,567 --> 00:03:15,167
Speaker 1: She says she's worked with Oscar nominated actors, Pulitzer Prize

66
00:03:15,207 --> 00:03:19,687
Speaker 1: winners Fortune five hundred CEOs Lena Dunham gives an endorsement

67
00:03:19,767 --> 00:03:22,047
Speaker 1: on her website and says Kate has kept me out

68
00:03:22,047 --> 00:03:25,327
Speaker 1: of catastrophe time and time again, I die without her.

69
00:03:25,407 --> 00:03:27,327
Speaker 2: So she's kind of like you know how celebrities all

70
00:03:27,367 --> 00:03:30,527
Speaker 2: used to have psychics or astrologers, like Princess Anna had

71
00:03:30,527 --> 00:03:33,407
Speaker 2: an astrologer who she would refer to anytime she had

72
00:03:33,447 --> 00:03:35,607
Speaker 2: a decision to make. So now a witch is a

73
00:03:35,607 --> 00:03:36,847
Speaker 2: cool thing to have on the payroll.

74
00:03:37,007 --> 00:03:40,447
Speaker 1: Speaking of payroll, yes, so she does say that magic

75
00:03:40,487 --> 00:03:43,927
Speaker 1: takes time. It can't happen overnight. And here's the big

76
00:03:44,047 --> 00:03:46,367
Speaker 1: money ask clients need to sign up for a six

77
00:03:46,407 --> 00:03:49,967
Speaker 1: month minimum commitment and it's around eight thousand Ausie dollars

78
00:03:50,007 --> 00:03:53,607
Speaker 1: a month. Eight thousand. She says, I could charge one

79
00:03:53,647 --> 00:03:56,767
Speaker 1: million dollars a session, and that would be completely ethical

80
00:03:56,767 --> 00:03:58,327
Speaker 1: because I'm not exploiting anybody.

81
00:03:58,567 --> 00:04:01,047
Speaker 2: What's she do for you, though? What do you think?

82
00:04:01,167 --> 00:04:02,967
Speaker 2: Do you think she gives you potions and stuff?

83
00:04:03,287 --> 00:04:05,327
Speaker 1: She doesn't really talk about it very much. But here's

84
00:04:05,327 --> 00:04:07,727
Speaker 1: the good news. For around one hundred and thirty dollars,

85
00:04:07,807 --> 00:04:12,287
Speaker 1: you can attend her seduction mass class, which is online.

86
00:04:11,927 --> 00:04:14,447
Speaker 2: So that you too can date Andrew Garfield.

87
00:04:15,127 --> 00:04:17,647
Speaker 1: Well. In July, she shut down rumors that she'd use

88
00:04:17,767 --> 00:04:20,927
Speaker 1: magic to seduce him, and she was forced to temporarily

89
00:04:20,967 --> 00:04:23,767
Speaker 1: shut down the seduction masterclass because of what she called

90
00:04:23,807 --> 00:04:28,527
Speaker 1: horrific accusations that she had one Andrew Garfield's affections through

91
00:04:28,527 --> 00:04:29,367
Speaker 1: magic spells.

92
00:04:29,607 --> 00:04:30,847
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't you if you could?

93
00:04:30,967 --> 00:04:33,727
Speaker 1: No, Absolutely, she did get a lot of online hate.

94
00:04:33,807 --> 00:04:36,087
Speaker 1: I have to say people did not like him dating

95
00:04:36,127 --> 00:04:39,247
Speaker 1: a witch. That's because witches are not traditionally very popular.

96
00:04:39,487 --> 00:04:41,647
Speaker 1: If you look back to the Salem witch trials on

97
00:04:42,727 --> 00:04:44,167
Speaker 1: they're not popular witches.

98
00:04:45,607 --> 00:04:47,327
Speaker 2: It's been a problem for some time.

99
00:04:47,807 --> 00:04:50,487
Speaker 1: We used to burn them. So she told The Times

100
00:04:50,487 --> 00:04:53,647
Speaker 1: that to deal with this online hate, she has some

101
00:04:53,727 --> 00:04:56,847
Speaker 1: various techniques. These are some of her magic techniques. Screaming

102
00:04:56,887 --> 00:05:01,327
Speaker 1: into a pillow, doing a cord cutting spell, or putting

103
00:05:01,367 --> 00:05:04,807
Speaker 1: a dome of energy like a belja over somebody that's

104
00:05:04,927 --> 00:05:08,647
Speaker 1: actively harmful. I don't know she means a literal beljar,

105
00:05:08,727 --> 00:05:10,567
Speaker 1: because you a really big one. You'd have to order

106
00:05:10,647 --> 00:05:11,727
Speaker 1: one on or something.

107
00:05:11,767 --> 00:05:15,607
Speaker 2: Make a little doll that is apparently, and then you

108
00:05:15,647 --> 00:05:19,447
Speaker 2: put the bell jar over. Yes, let's do that for me.

109
00:05:20,287 --> 00:05:22,047
Speaker 2: I scream into a pillow all the time.

110
00:05:24,127 --> 00:05:26,287
Speaker 1: That was magic or that I need to debate eight

111
00:05:26,287 --> 00:05:30,767
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a month. No, that's you being a witch.

112
00:05:31,567 --> 00:05:35,487
Speaker 1: Next time you do it just say master, do some witchcraft. Okay,

113
00:05:35,567 --> 00:05:38,527
Speaker 1: she might be screaming into a pillow right now because

114
00:05:38,887 --> 00:05:42,607
Speaker 1: the Internet loves Garfield's new love interest. Who is the

115
00:05:42,607 --> 00:05:45,567
Speaker 1: host of Chicken Shop Date Amelia de Moldenburg.

116
00:05:45,727 --> 00:05:48,287
Speaker 2: Surely not, not because I don't think they would date,

117
00:05:48,327 --> 00:05:52,807
Speaker 2: but like, doesn't she professionally date people? Yes, dates in

118
00:05:52,807 --> 00:05:54,127
Speaker 2: inverted commas.

119
00:05:53,687 --> 00:05:57,607
Speaker 4: But in terms of Internet law, what has happened is

120
00:05:57,647 --> 00:06:00,447
Speaker 4: that they have had a few meat cutes on, like

121
00:06:00,527 --> 00:06:04,687
Speaker 4: red carpets and stuff. There is palpable chemistry that people

122
00:06:04,767 --> 00:06:07,007
Speaker 4: are just so invested in, and now they've sat down

123
00:06:07,487 --> 00:06:11,367
Speaker 4: and done a proper Chicken Shop date. Now Amelia has

124
00:06:11,407 --> 00:06:14,807
Speaker 4: been doing this ten years. She goes and speaks to celebrities.

125
00:06:14,847 --> 00:06:18,127
Speaker 4: It started in a real kind of date way where

126
00:06:18,127 --> 00:06:20,967
Speaker 4: she would sit down with a guy and the chicken

127
00:06:20,967 --> 00:06:23,447
Speaker 4: shop stick in the UK, as you would know, Holly

128
00:06:23,647 --> 00:06:24,047
Speaker 4: is like.

129
00:06:24,087 --> 00:06:25,687
Speaker 1: Can you explain that? Well?

130
00:06:25,727 --> 00:06:28,047
Speaker 2: The chicken was like, well, what would be the equivalent?

131
00:06:28,127 --> 00:06:31,847
Speaker 2: It's almost like fish and chip a kebab shop. Yeah,

132
00:06:31,847 --> 00:06:35,247
Speaker 2: it's an unglamorous but very popular place where you would

133
00:06:35,247 --> 00:06:38,487
Speaker 2: go and have chicken and chips, and many different kinds

134
00:06:38,527 --> 00:06:42,007
Speaker 2: of chicken would be available. Anyway, I guess the idea

135
00:06:42,327 --> 00:06:45,127
Speaker 2: is the stick was take a glamorous person, put them

136
00:06:45,167 --> 00:06:48,807
Speaker 2: in an unglamorous setting, talk to her an ordinary person.

137
00:06:48,887 --> 00:06:51,407
Speaker 2: And the thing that's always been her great stick is

138
00:06:51,407 --> 00:06:54,247
Speaker 2: that even before now she's a big deal, she's a celebrity,

139
00:06:54,687 --> 00:06:56,767
Speaker 2: but when she started out, I guess the stick was

140
00:06:57,487 --> 00:06:59,967
Speaker 2: ordinary girl with a lot of confidence. I reckon I

141
00:07:00,007 --> 00:07:02,367
Speaker 2: could date any of these people, and that.

142
00:07:02,247 --> 00:07:04,687
Speaker 4: They're here because they genuinely want a date mates. And

143
00:07:04,727 --> 00:07:07,607
Speaker 4: that's why it works, I think is that it's so

144
00:07:08,407 --> 00:07:11,007
Speaker 4: transgressive in a way because often you see with think

145
00:07:11,087 --> 00:07:14,287
Speaker 4: late night shows or whatever, there's this pandering, there's this

146
00:07:14,527 --> 00:07:18,647
Speaker 4: like submissiveness to the celebrity. But this is like, she's

147
00:07:18,687 --> 00:07:21,167
Speaker 4: a powerful one for absolutely.

148
00:07:20,527 --> 00:07:21,407
Speaker 2: No reason exactly.

149
00:07:21,447 --> 00:07:24,247
Speaker 4: So she sits there and then you've got Paul mescal

150
00:07:24,487 --> 00:07:26,607
Speaker 4: or you've got I mean, she's interviewed everyone, but Andrew

151
00:07:26,607 --> 00:07:28,767
Speaker 4: Garfield sits down and she's like, impress me.

152
00:07:28,847 --> 00:07:31,527
Speaker 1: But are you not seeing the Venn diagram here between

153
00:07:31,687 --> 00:07:38,527
Speaker 1: professional seduction technique teacher and Amelia who is a professional flirt.

154
00:07:38,607 --> 00:07:42,007
Speaker 1: That's kind of interesting, is interesting and can we hear?

155
00:07:42,327 --> 00:07:43,007
Speaker 2: I thought the.

156
00:07:42,927 --> 00:07:46,927
Speaker 1: Way that this interview started was very interesting. Can we agree,

157
00:07:46,967 --> 00:07:48,767
Speaker 1: there's a bit of a curse on this. What do

158
00:07:48,847 --> 00:07:50,847
Speaker 1: you mean like a bad cast in the sense of, like,

159
00:07:51,127 --> 00:07:56,447
Speaker 1: you know, we've had a couple of lovely interactions. What's

160
00:07:56,487 --> 00:07:56,927
Speaker 1: going on.

161
00:07:57,567 --> 00:07:59,607
Speaker 2: Well, he knows a lot about curses. He knows a

162
00:07:59,607 --> 00:08:02,807
Speaker 2: lot about maybe Kate, his ex, has put a curse

163
00:08:02,847 --> 00:08:07,887
Speaker 2: on Amelia. You never know screaming poisoned her chicken. Don't

164
00:08:07,967 --> 00:08:10,487
Speaker 2: touch the burger, don't touch it.

165
00:08:10,727 --> 00:08:12,887
Speaker 1: But stepping back, I can't help but feel a bit

166
00:08:12,927 --> 00:08:16,087
Speaker 1: cynical about this him starting with the curse. He knows

167
00:08:16,127 --> 00:08:18,607
Speaker 1: what he's doing here. He's got a film to promote

168
00:08:18,607 --> 00:08:21,287
Speaker 1: with Florence Pwitt's, a romance called We Live in Time.

169
00:08:21,887 --> 00:08:25,767
Speaker 1: He's become a little bit of a kind of professional

170
00:08:25,847 --> 00:08:27,887
Speaker 1: boyfriend figure on the internet.

171
00:08:28,527 --> 00:08:31,327
Speaker 4: I think he is so charismatic. Did you see what

172
00:08:31,327 --> 00:08:33,447
Speaker 4: he did on Sethame Street? Tell me he did this

173
00:08:33,447 --> 00:08:35,247
Speaker 4: thing with Elmo where he sat down and spoke to

174
00:08:35,247 --> 00:08:36,207
Speaker 4: Elmo about grief.

175
00:08:36,247 --> 00:08:37,087
Speaker 3: It was beautiful.

176
00:08:37,447 --> 00:08:39,967
Speaker 4: He is so rogue, I think because he's British, he

177
00:08:40,007 --> 00:08:42,927
Speaker 4: gets away with a lot very clever. He's very, very clever,

178
00:08:43,007 --> 00:08:44,127
Speaker 4: he's very very sexy.

179
00:08:44,287 --> 00:08:49,327
Speaker 1: British people can get away with anything in America, Fordney Exactly.

180
00:08:51,207 --> 00:08:56,647
Speaker 2: Broo cuteh.

181
00:08:56,527 --> 00:08:57,247
Speaker 3: On Wednesday.

182
00:08:57,327 --> 00:09:01,207
Speaker 4: Last week, Liam Payne, former member of One Direction, died

183
00:09:01,247 --> 00:09:04,047
Speaker 4: at thirty one years old after falling from the balcony

184
00:09:04,247 --> 00:09:05,447
Speaker 4: in Buenos Aires.

185
00:09:05,767 --> 00:09:08,287
Speaker 5: The shock over the death of One Direction star Liam

186
00:09:08,327 --> 00:09:11,727
Speaker 5: Payne has continued across the weekend as his father Jeff

187
00:09:11,807 --> 00:09:14,327
Speaker 5: traveled to Argentina to arrange for the return of his

188
00:09:14,407 --> 00:09:17,407
Speaker 5: son's body to England. Mister Paine was taken to the

189
00:09:17,447 --> 00:09:20,367
Speaker 5: Morgue not long after arriving in the country to identify

190
00:09:20,447 --> 00:09:23,647
Speaker 5: his son's body before he headed to the prosecutor's office

191
00:09:23,687 --> 00:09:26,007
Speaker 5: to organize a repatriation of his remains.

192
00:09:26,127 --> 00:09:29,607
Speaker 4: That was Claire Murphy from today's episode of The Quickie

193
00:09:29,607 --> 00:09:33,767
Speaker 4: where they covered what has unfolded since Wednesday. I just

194
00:09:33,807 --> 00:09:35,807
Speaker 4: want to go back a few steps for anyone who

195
00:09:35,927 --> 00:09:39,807
Speaker 4: wasn't a One Direction superfan. So Payne was fourteen when

196
00:09:39,807 --> 00:09:41,927
Speaker 4: he first tried out for The X Factor, but it

197
00:09:41,967 --> 00:09:44,727
Speaker 4: was the second time he auditioned in twenty ten that

198
00:09:44,807 --> 00:09:45,887
Speaker 4: his life changed.

199
00:09:45,927 --> 00:09:46,447
Speaker 3: Overnight.

200
00:09:47,047 --> 00:09:50,327
Speaker 4: He entered as a solo act along with Niall Horn,

201
00:09:50,647 --> 00:09:54,847
Speaker 4: Zaye Mallick, Louis Tomlinson and Harry Styles, but Judge and

202
00:09:54,887 --> 00:09:58,327
Speaker 4: Record executive Simon Cowell decided to try them as a band,

203
00:09:58,647 --> 00:10:01,647
Speaker 4: and they placed third in the competition, but One Direction

204
00:10:01,767 --> 00:10:03,927
Speaker 4: would go on to become one of the best selling

205
00:10:03,967 --> 00:10:08,047
Speaker 4: bands of all time. By twenty fifteen, Zaye Mallick decided

206
00:10:08,087 --> 00:10:10,567
Speaker 4: to leave with an a fisih statement that read, I

207
00:10:10,607 --> 00:10:12,567
Speaker 4: am leaving because I want to be a normal twenty

208
00:10:12,567 --> 00:10:14,887
Speaker 4: two year old who is able to relax and have

209
00:10:15,047 --> 00:10:18,247
Speaker 4: some private time out of the spotlight. They went on

210
00:10:18,327 --> 00:10:22,207
Speaker 4: an indefinite hiatus in twenty sixteen and never performed together again.

211
00:10:22,487 --> 00:10:25,847
Speaker 4: Speaking over the weekend, Guy Chambers, one of the leading

212
00:10:25,887 --> 00:10:29,487
Speaker 4: songwriters in the UK, said under eighteen's should not be

213
00:10:29,567 --> 00:10:33,127
Speaker 4: allowed to join pop bands. Chambers worked with Robbie Williams

214
00:10:33,247 --> 00:10:37,047
Speaker 4: and said there were no protections set up. Documentary maker

215
00:10:37,167 --> 00:10:39,927
Speaker 4: Louis Thrue has a new series set to be released

216
00:10:39,967 --> 00:10:43,167
Speaker 4: next month which is actually all about the dramatic highs

217
00:10:43,167 --> 00:10:46,967
Speaker 4: and depths of despair young stardom can bring, and he

218
00:10:47,087 --> 00:10:50,527
Speaker 4: explores this with the likes of Robbie Williams and Brian McFadden.

219
00:10:51,207 --> 00:10:53,567
Speaker 4: A contestant who was on the same season of The

220
00:10:53,687 --> 00:10:56,167
Speaker 4: X Factor as Pain has just said in the last

221
00:10:56,207 --> 00:10:59,247
Speaker 4: week that the exploitation of young stars leaves many of

222
00:10:59,287 --> 00:11:03,287
Speaker 4: them living with PTSD. Pain had spoken about struggling with

223
00:11:03,327 --> 00:11:06,887
Speaker 4: alcoholism and the experience of being locked in hotel rooms

224
00:11:06,927 --> 00:11:10,327
Speaker 4: with a mini bar between gigs. Also spoken about the

225
00:11:10,327 --> 00:11:11,887
Speaker 4: loneliness of hotel rooms.

226
00:11:12,047 --> 00:11:14,327
Speaker 6: My dad said it from day one, lonely hotel rooms, ma'am.

227
00:11:14,367 --> 00:11:16,127
Speaker 6: Getting locked in that room is not fun. I was

228
00:11:16,127 --> 00:11:17,847
Speaker 6: worried how far my rock button was going to be?

229
00:11:18,047 --> 00:11:19,887
Speaker 6: Where's rock button for me? And you would never have

230
00:11:19,887 --> 00:11:21,487
Speaker 6: seen it. I'm very good at hiding it. No one

231
00:11:21,487 --> 00:11:23,607
Speaker 6: would ever have seen it. But rock button, I mean,

232
00:11:23,647 --> 00:11:24,887
Speaker 6: I don't even know if I hit it yet.

233
00:11:24,927 --> 00:11:25,207
Speaker 3: Holly.

234
00:11:25,287 --> 00:11:29,167
Speaker 4: Fans of One Direction knew that Payne had struggled basically

235
00:11:29,207 --> 00:11:32,847
Speaker 4: since the band rose to fame. Should we be rethinking

236
00:11:32,967 --> 00:11:36,527
Speaker 4: kids working in the entertainment industry? And is that even realistic?

237
00:11:37,927 --> 00:11:40,927
Speaker 2: It's really interesting, isn't it? Because the fact that fame

238
00:11:40,967 --> 00:11:43,527
Speaker 2: and fortune is terrible for mental health, full stop, but

239
00:11:43,567 --> 00:11:47,087
Speaker 2: it's terrible, terrible for mental health of young people is

240
00:11:47,127 --> 00:11:50,487
Speaker 2: not news, right. The curse of the child star is

241
00:11:50,847 --> 00:11:52,727
Speaker 2: a thing, so much of a thing, it's a cliche.

242
00:11:52,807 --> 00:11:55,047
Speaker 2: And think about Britney Spears, and think about Miley Cyrus,

243
00:11:55,087 --> 00:11:57,327
Speaker 2: and think about Michael Jackson, and think about Justin Bieber,

244
00:11:57,367 --> 00:11:59,367
Speaker 2: and you could go on and on and on and

245
00:11:59,407 --> 00:12:03,407
Speaker 2: on and on, right, but it doesn't stop everybody from

246
00:12:03,487 --> 00:12:06,167
Speaker 2: wanting it. So I watched The Voice and stuff with

247
00:12:06,167 --> 00:12:08,287
Speaker 2: my kids, and obviously the Voice isn't what it was

248
00:12:08,327 --> 00:12:10,727
Speaker 2: but in its heyday where these kind of bands started,

249
00:12:10,767 --> 00:12:12,807
Speaker 2: just like The X Factor, just like Idol. This year

250
00:12:12,807 --> 00:12:14,647
Speaker 2: they had a thirteen year old on last year they

251
00:12:14,687 --> 00:12:17,087
Speaker 2: had a twelve year old on a fifteen year old one.

252
00:12:17,127 --> 00:12:20,287
Speaker 2: It wants the Australian version, I mean, and every time

253
00:12:20,327 --> 00:12:23,767
Speaker 2: you watch that happen, the parents and the people around

254
00:12:23,767 --> 00:12:26,527
Speaker 2: those kids will say, I couldn't stop this kid from

255
00:12:26,527 --> 00:12:29,767
Speaker 2: doing this if I wanted to, Like, they are so driven,

256
00:12:29,887 --> 00:12:30,887
Speaker 2: they want it so much.

257
00:12:30,887 --> 00:12:31,527
Speaker 3: Do you think that's true?

258
00:12:31,607 --> 00:12:34,447
Speaker 2: It's their dream? Well? I think it probably is true,

259
00:12:34,447 --> 00:12:36,807
Speaker 2: because as I say about how it's the attraction of fame,

260
00:12:36,847 --> 00:12:40,127
Speaker 2: of fortune, despite all we know about it is intractable.

261
00:12:40,127 --> 00:12:42,487
Speaker 2: It's kind of like the Princess curse. Right, we all

262
00:12:42,527 --> 00:12:44,407
Speaker 2: know that that's terrible for you too, but it doesn't

263
00:12:44,407 --> 00:12:47,527
Speaker 2: stop everybody from swooning. When Harry and Meghan got married.

264
00:12:48,367 --> 00:12:51,887
Speaker 2: I think that young people want to be famous, you

265
00:12:51,927 --> 00:12:54,367
Speaker 2: know now they want to be YouTubers, they want to

266
00:12:54,407 --> 00:12:58,527
Speaker 2: be all over TikTok and Instagram. They want to be

267
00:12:58,847 --> 00:13:01,247
Speaker 2: It looks great. And if you also love music and

268
00:13:01,287 --> 00:13:03,207
Speaker 2: you also love all those things and the fact that

269
00:13:03,247 --> 00:13:06,487
Speaker 2: the consumers of so much pop music are young, then

270
00:13:06,487 --> 00:13:09,047
Speaker 2: it seems to make absolute sense. The thing that is

271
00:13:09,087 --> 00:13:12,887
Speaker 2: so sad about this is that it was so predictable

272
00:13:13,047 --> 00:13:15,887
Speaker 2: in a way because Robbie Williams, who you mentioned in

273
00:13:15,887 --> 00:13:18,727
Speaker 2: the intro, who joined Take That who was the one

274
00:13:18,727 --> 00:13:21,087
Speaker 2: direction of the nineties, and in those days it wasn't

275
00:13:21,087 --> 00:13:22,887
Speaker 2: a reality show. It was literally an ad in a

276
00:13:22,927 --> 00:13:26,407
Speaker 2: newspaper looking for hot young boys who can sing and dance.

277
00:13:26,727 --> 00:13:29,727
Speaker 2: And he was sixteen when he joined that band, and

278
00:13:29,807 --> 00:13:32,647
Speaker 2: he has been so open about what that did to him,

279
00:13:32,927 --> 00:13:35,687
Speaker 2: and he left when he was nineteen twenty, I think,

280
00:13:35,727 --> 00:13:37,767
Speaker 2: and went on to be like, we've seen it over

281
00:13:37,847 --> 00:13:40,527
Speaker 2: and over again, and yet still when somebody dies in

282
00:13:40,567 --> 00:13:43,887
Speaker 2: this circumstance, we're so shocked. Personally. I think, yes, we

283
00:13:43,927 --> 00:13:47,447
Speaker 2: should really be looking at more protectionism for these young kids,

284
00:13:47,767 --> 00:13:50,847
Speaker 2: because it just very rarely seems to end well.

285
00:13:50,967 --> 00:13:54,447
Speaker 1: It's harder to think of the young pop stars who've thrived.

286
00:13:55,167 --> 00:13:56,847
Speaker 1: I mean, the only one that I could really come

287
00:13:56,927 --> 00:13:59,967
Speaker 1: up with was Taylor Swift. Even Demi Lovato, who's still

288
00:14:00,047 --> 00:14:03,207
Speaker 1: very much a successful artist, just released this documentary this year,

289
00:14:03,287 --> 00:14:06,247
Speaker 1: Child's Star, which shows that she's struggled with addiction and

290
00:14:06,287 --> 00:14:08,567
Speaker 1: many other problems as a result of her child's stardom.

291
00:14:08,807 --> 00:14:12,207
Speaker 1: Miley Virus, I suppose you could argue has done very well.

292
00:14:12,247 --> 00:14:15,647
Speaker 1: And there's often a lot of very complicated family dynamics

293
00:14:15,647 --> 00:14:17,327
Speaker 1: at play too, which I think is what you were

294
00:14:17,367 --> 00:14:20,167
Speaker 1: sort of getting at before, Jesse, the question of how

295
00:14:20,247 --> 00:14:22,687
Speaker 1: much of this is a push from parents to attain

296
00:14:22,767 --> 00:14:25,767
Speaker 1: financial security and glamorous lifestyle, and how much is that

297
00:14:25,887 --> 00:14:27,047
Speaker 1: kids really wanting to do this.

298
00:14:27,727 --> 00:14:29,807
Speaker 3: I think the other example is Harry Styles.

299
00:14:30,367 --> 00:14:33,127
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but I wouldn't say that because I think

300
00:14:34,007 --> 00:14:35,567
Speaker 2: one of the things that Harry Styles has done very

301
00:14:35,567 --> 00:14:39,167
Speaker 2: successfully is he's very private. Considering how famous Harry Styles is,

302
00:14:39,727 --> 00:14:43,207
Speaker 2: I have never publicly seen him in any circumstance with

303
00:14:43,247 --> 00:14:45,447
Speaker 2: a partner, you know what I mean, like pat pictures only.

304
00:14:45,767 --> 00:14:48,087
Speaker 2: He is intensely private. None of us would have any

305
00:14:48,127 --> 00:14:50,567
Speaker 2: idea about the state of Harry Styles's mental health, and

306
00:14:50,607 --> 00:14:53,407
Speaker 2: he you know, even In some of his most famous

307
00:14:53,407 --> 00:14:57,447
Speaker 2: pop songs, he references pills and loneliness and family problems

308
00:14:57,447 --> 00:15:00,487
Speaker 2: like he seems to be doing well now, like great,

309
00:15:00,687 --> 00:15:01,207
Speaker 2: you know, but.

310
00:15:01,527 --> 00:15:05,127
Speaker 4: Yeah, I read a reference to a study recently. There

311
00:15:05,167 --> 00:15:07,167
Speaker 4: was a study done in sort of second half the

312
00:15:07,167 --> 00:15:11,247
Speaker 4: twentieth century on people who who had chart topping singles,

313
00:15:11,727 --> 00:15:15,127
Speaker 4: and if you had a chart topping single, you were

314
00:15:15,487 --> 00:15:18,327
Speaker 4: three times more likely to die than someone who didn't.

315
00:15:18,327 --> 00:15:23,007
Speaker 4: These were adults, right, and more likely to die from alcoholism,

316
00:15:23,567 --> 00:15:27,407
Speaker 4: accidents and chronic illness that's often caused by drug use

317
00:15:27,487 --> 00:15:28,327
Speaker 4: or something like that.

318
00:15:28,967 --> 00:15:31,207
Speaker 3: The effects of that on the teenage brain.

319
00:15:31,527 --> 00:15:33,047
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think you need to do a

320
00:15:33,087 --> 00:15:37,727
Speaker 4: research study to show that it's even bigger. And the

321
00:15:37,767 --> 00:15:39,447
Speaker 4: second thing that that study couldn't take.

322
00:15:39,327 --> 00:15:42,207
Speaker 3: Into account was the Internet because the Internet wasn't around yet.

323
00:15:42,007 --> 00:15:47,167
Speaker 4: So imagine that too. Liam Payne, he had a really

324
00:15:48,127 --> 00:15:51,607
Speaker 4: complicated relationship with fame and even you know, in the

325
00:15:51,647 --> 00:15:54,807
Speaker 4: weeks before his death, he had a former girlfriend who

326
00:15:55,167 --> 00:15:59,607
Speaker 4: had filed for a season desist. Alcoholism was something that

327
00:15:59,687 --> 00:16:02,247
Speaker 4: we heard him talk about, and he did this interview

328
00:16:02,367 --> 00:16:05,247
Speaker 4: with Logan Paul like a podcast interview where he appeared

329
00:16:05,247 --> 00:16:07,847
Speaker 4: to be under the influence of alcohol, and in some

330
00:16:08,527 --> 00:16:11,007
Speaker 4: respects corners of the internet that treated him like a

331
00:16:11,087 --> 00:16:15,567
Speaker 4: laughing stock, really because he had had these dizzying highs

332
00:16:15,887 --> 00:16:20,927
Speaker 4: like Harry Styles, and then he was sort of thrown out. Well,

333
00:16:21,087 --> 00:16:24,207
Speaker 4: felt like he was a bit thrown out after one direction.

334
00:16:24,407 --> 00:16:28,767
Speaker 4: And I found what he said about hotel rooms really

335
00:16:29,447 --> 00:16:32,687
Speaker 4: telling and insightful, because there is something about the hotel

336
00:16:32,767 --> 00:16:35,007
Speaker 4: room that you see in a lot of these stories.

337
00:16:35,367 --> 00:16:38,207
Speaker 4: And I often think about if you are on stage.

338
00:16:38,447 --> 00:16:41,047
Speaker 4: There's a famous story about Liam Payne a fan sort

339
00:16:41,087 --> 00:16:43,127
Speaker 4: of trying to rip his ear off. Is how much

340
00:16:43,167 --> 00:16:45,247
Speaker 4: this fan wants a piece of him. Imagine what that

341
00:16:45,367 --> 00:16:47,727
Speaker 4: does to your nervous system and your adrenaline. And you're

342
00:16:47,767 --> 00:16:50,807
Speaker 4: on stage and you're feeling these highs that the average

343
00:16:50,807 --> 00:16:53,847
Speaker 4: person will never ever experience, and then you go back

344
00:16:54,087 --> 00:16:59,367
Speaker 4: to a silent, dark, empty hotel room. And I've heard

345
00:16:59,407 --> 00:17:01,687
Speaker 4: famous people talk about this, the only way to chase

346
00:17:01,727 --> 00:17:04,567
Speaker 4: that high is through substance. To sit there with your

347
00:17:04,607 --> 00:17:09,247
Speaker 4: own thoughts would be such a confronting experience.

348
00:17:09,327 --> 00:17:12,247
Speaker 2: And also the reason why fame is so at this

349
00:17:12,327 --> 00:17:16,007
Speaker 2: particular level. We've been hearing people telling us these stories.

350
00:17:16,047 --> 00:17:19,367
Speaker 2: For you know almost one hundred years, but we don't

351
00:17:19,407 --> 00:17:22,127
Speaker 2: want to hear them because to our lives, our ordinary lives,

352
00:17:22,167 --> 00:17:24,887
Speaker 2: how could it possibly not be amazing to get everything

353
00:17:24,887 --> 00:17:27,047
Speaker 2: you want, doing something you love, all the money in

354
00:17:27,087 --> 00:17:30,127
Speaker 2: the world, all the adelation in the world, traveling everywhere.

355
00:17:30,447 --> 00:17:32,247
Speaker 2: But the reality of it is is you're taking a

356
00:17:32,287 --> 00:17:36,287
Speaker 2: young person, taking them away from everything that connects them

357
00:17:36,327 --> 00:17:40,207
Speaker 2: to reality because you're constantly traveling, I mean constantly. As

358
00:17:40,247 --> 00:17:43,287
Speaker 2: Robbie Williams said famously, you can't trust anybody once you're

359
00:17:43,287 --> 00:17:46,007
Speaker 2: at that level of fame because everybody wants something from you.

360
00:17:46,007 --> 00:17:48,807
Speaker 2: You're paying everybody's bills, or they want you to, you know,

361
00:17:48,887 --> 00:17:51,327
Speaker 2: listen to my tape, take me this, this, or I

362
00:17:51,367 --> 00:17:53,047
Speaker 2: want to get a secret about you that I can

363
00:17:53,127 --> 00:17:56,127
Speaker 2: sell to somebody. You are a commodity. Once you've lost

364
00:17:56,127 --> 00:18:00,727
Speaker 2: your band of brothers, that's even more difficult because at least,

365
00:18:00,727 --> 00:18:02,927
Speaker 2: if you're all in it together, you're all in it together.

366
00:18:03,127 --> 00:18:05,727
Speaker 2: But once that falls apart, which inevitably it always seems

367
00:18:05,767 --> 00:18:09,767
Speaker 2: to do. You never really get five massive stars out

368
00:18:09,767 --> 00:18:12,287
Speaker 2: of a band once they break up. History tells us

369
00:18:12,287 --> 00:18:15,327
Speaker 2: there will be one or two big breakout stars and

370
00:18:15,367 --> 00:18:17,567
Speaker 2: then everybody else will always be for the rest of

371
00:18:17,607 --> 00:18:20,207
Speaker 2: their life. That guy who used to be in one

372
00:18:20,287 --> 00:18:22,647
Speaker 2: direction are Isn't it sad that he's not Harry Styles?

373
00:18:22,767 --> 00:18:24,887
Speaker 2: Or you know, in Robbie Williams's case, and again he

374
00:18:24,927 --> 00:18:27,767
Speaker 2: spoke about this lots in his amazing documentary. He had

375
00:18:27,807 --> 00:18:30,207
Speaker 2: times when he was, as he described it, the center

376
00:18:30,207 --> 00:18:32,447
Speaker 2: of the pop culture universe, and then he had times

377
00:18:32,487 --> 00:18:35,527
Speaker 2: already is mocked, has been sad, not what you were.

378
00:18:35,567 --> 00:18:40,047
Speaker 2: So you've got intense scrutiny, criticism, separation from everybody who

379
00:18:40,087 --> 00:18:43,727
Speaker 2: loves you in real life, constant traveling, access to everything.

380
00:18:44,287 --> 00:18:46,967
Speaker 2: If you're rich enough and famous enough, you can get

381
00:18:47,007 --> 00:18:49,527
Speaker 2: whatever you want whenever you want it. And a lot

382
00:18:49,527 --> 00:18:51,127
Speaker 2: of what we want is not what we should have.

383
00:18:51,767 --> 00:18:53,087
Speaker 2: How could it end any other way?

384
00:18:53,247 --> 00:18:55,527
Speaker 1: You're making me think about a story that's going to

385
00:18:55,527 --> 00:18:58,047
Speaker 1: be slightly annoying because I can't name the person involved

386
00:18:58,087 --> 00:18:59,807
Speaker 1: in it. But in my twenties, I was living in

387
00:18:59,847 --> 00:19:02,047
Speaker 1: New York and I became friends through a friend of

388
00:19:02,087 --> 00:19:05,767
Speaker 1: mine with a young actress who was also in her

389
00:19:05,767 --> 00:19:08,967
Speaker 1: early twenties and moved to Hollywood around twenty five. And

390
00:19:09,007 --> 00:19:12,087
Speaker 1: there was in a show that we would have all

391
00:19:12,167 --> 00:19:14,887
Speaker 1: seen and I used to see her whenever I went

392
00:19:14,927 --> 00:19:17,047
Speaker 1: to Los Angeles, sort of once a year or so,

393
00:19:17,327 --> 00:19:21,207
Speaker 1: and over the years she became stranger and stranger as

394
00:19:21,207 --> 00:19:23,647
Speaker 1: her star wars in Hollywood. For a start, her nose

395
00:19:23,727 --> 00:19:26,527
Speaker 1: became narrower and narrower, because every time I saw her

396
00:19:27,007 --> 00:19:30,487
Speaker 1: she'd undergone some kind of alteration. The last time I

397
00:19:30,527 --> 00:19:32,847
Speaker 1: saw her, we went out for lunch and she ordered

398
00:19:32,927 --> 00:19:36,247
Speaker 1: a salad of a arugula of rocket salad with a

399
00:19:36,407 --> 00:19:40,287
Speaker 1: side of boiled spinach, and that was her lunch and

400
00:19:40,327 --> 00:19:42,247
Speaker 1: I didn't see her after that, in part because she

401
00:19:42,327 --> 00:19:45,287
Speaker 1: kind of retreated. I think the more famous you get,

402
00:19:45,647 --> 00:19:49,247
Speaker 1: the more closed off your life has to become. And

403
00:19:49,447 --> 00:19:52,167
Speaker 1: that makes me think that if that's someone in their twenties,

404
00:19:52,207 --> 00:19:55,567
Speaker 1: can you imagine for a teenager how oppressive that is.

405
00:19:56,007 --> 00:19:58,887
Speaker 1: And it's part of that overall reevaluation we're doing about

406
00:19:58,927 --> 00:20:01,087
Speaker 1: what it is to be a child and how we

407
00:20:01,127 --> 00:20:03,407
Speaker 1: want to wall off childhood a little more than we

408
00:20:03,487 --> 00:20:05,967
Speaker 1: have in the past. I was looking into when we

409
00:20:06,447 --> 00:20:08,847
Speaker 1: came up with this idea of the prefrontal cortex not

410
00:20:08,887 --> 00:20:12,687
Speaker 1: being heed until twenty six, and that's a relatively recent idea.

411
00:20:12,887 --> 00:20:15,567
Speaker 1: MRI imaging developed in the nineties, and then we started

412
00:20:15,607 --> 00:20:18,247
Speaker 1: looking at brains and we realized they literally look different

413
00:20:18,287 --> 00:20:21,087
Speaker 1: when you're a teenager. And so I think we're probably

414
00:20:21,127 --> 00:20:23,767
Speaker 1: overdue for Just as we're looking at social media and

415
00:20:23,807 --> 00:20:26,007
Speaker 1: whether we want to protect children from social media, we

416
00:20:26,047 --> 00:20:27,567
Speaker 1: probably need to look at whether we want to protect

417
00:20:27,607 --> 00:20:28,407
Speaker 1: children from vame.

418
00:20:28,767 --> 00:20:31,367
Speaker 2: It's interesting because there's a knock on there probably, right,

419
00:20:31,487 --> 00:20:33,687
Speaker 2: is that when I think about my daughter who's fourteen

420
00:20:33,727 --> 00:20:37,767
Speaker 2: and how she lives on social media, no wonder the influences,

421
00:20:37,887 --> 00:20:41,967
Speaker 2: whether they are actual artists or whether they're literally just influencers,

422
00:20:42,687 --> 00:20:44,727
Speaker 2: are the same age, right, The people that she wants

423
00:20:44,767 --> 00:20:47,047
Speaker 2: to see selling her things at the same age. If

424
00:20:47,087 --> 00:20:50,207
Speaker 2: you kick kids off social media, then that market has

425
00:20:50,247 --> 00:20:53,047
Speaker 2: now dried up, right, And that almost protects a group

426
00:20:53,087 --> 00:20:55,647
Speaker 2: of people, not in this instance with the pop stars,

427
00:20:55,687 --> 00:20:57,607
Speaker 2: but as long as we want to sell things to

428
00:20:57,727 --> 00:21:01,127
Speaker 2: young people and we know that they are most susceptible

429
00:21:01,127 --> 00:21:03,207
Speaker 2: to peer to peer marketing, as many of us are,

430
00:21:03,967 --> 00:21:06,287
Speaker 2: then you're always going to turn the people who are

431
00:21:06,287 --> 00:21:07,727
Speaker 2: doing the selling into commodities.

432
00:21:07,807 --> 00:21:08,007
Speaker 1: Right.

433
00:21:08,207 --> 00:21:12,047
Speaker 4: I think what as Well is so telling about the

434
00:21:12,087 --> 00:21:14,927
Speaker 4: treatment of lie and pain in his life is also

435
00:21:15,007 --> 00:21:18,647
Speaker 4: how he was treated in death because there have been reports.

436
00:21:18,687 --> 00:21:22,327
Speaker 4: The first is leaked photographs from inside the hotel, which

437
00:21:22,407 --> 00:21:25,807
Speaker 4: is almost inevitable that a worker or someone showed images

438
00:21:25,847 --> 00:21:27,647
Speaker 4: of damage that have been done to the hotel. And

439
00:21:27,687 --> 00:21:31,047
Speaker 4: we have heard numerous reports about his final hours which

440
00:21:31,047 --> 00:21:35,127
Speaker 4: are quite confronting. But the other is TMZ publishing images

441
00:21:35,167 --> 00:21:39,247
Speaker 4: of his lifeless body and to not even have privacy

442
00:21:39,847 --> 00:21:44,687
Speaker 4: or dignity in death is so confronting, and in fact

443
00:21:44,767 --> 00:21:47,287
Speaker 4: it was fans I think, as well as kind of

444
00:21:47,327 --> 00:21:50,887
Speaker 4: an ethical framework of journalists going no, you don't publish that,

445
00:21:50,967 --> 00:21:54,567
Speaker 4: but fans coming out going we're disgusted by this, Like

446
00:21:54,607 --> 00:21:57,807
Speaker 4: there's been this enormous backlash. I wonder if that's part

447
00:21:57,847 --> 00:22:00,167
Speaker 4: of it too, that we're looking at this and.

448
00:22:00,207 --> 00:22:02,527
Speaker 2: It's another lesson that we refuse to learn though, right

449
00:22:02,687 --> 00:22:05,967
Speaker 2: every time there's a celebrity death, and even saying celebrity

450
00:22:06,007 --> 00:22:09,527
Speaker 2: death is so awful because to everybody who actually new

451
00:22:09,607 --> 00:22:12,647
Speaker 2: Liam Payne, this is not a celebrity death. This is

452
00:22:12,647 --> 00:22:15,047
Speaker 2: the death of a loved one and a human being.

453
00:22:15,407 --> 00:22:19,047
Speaker 2: But every time we go, it's terrible how their privacy

454
00:22:19,087 --> 00:22:21,407
Speaker 2: is being so invaded. It's terrible how we want to

455
00:22:21,447 --> 00:22:23,327
Speaker 2: know all the details of exactly what they did in

456
00:22:23,327 --> 00:22:25,647
Speaker 2: the last twenty four hours and exactly where his girlfriend

457
00:22:25,727 --> 00:22:27,407
Speaker 2: was and exactly what he ate and exactly what he

458
00:22:27,527 --> 00:22:29,927
Speaker 2: ordered from room service. And then it happens again and

459
00:22:29,927 --> 00:22:34,087
Speaker 2: we all just do it again. You know it's Groundhog Day, Lady.

460
00:22:34,727 --> 00:22:38,527
Speaker 5: I want to know what do you think when you're alone?

461
00:22:38,727 --> 00:22:39,207
Speaker 5: Rising me?

462
00:22:41,047 --> 00:22:45,247
Speaker 2: I think you're me.

463
00:22:43,887 --> 00:22:47,487
Speaker 6: Hell tell you how.

464
00:22:47,727 --> 00:22:53,127
Speaker 2: It's time for Holly's Royal roundup. As we're recording today,

465
00:22:53,287 --> 00:22:56,607
Speaker 2: the King and Queen of England are in Canberra, where

466
00:22:56,607 --> 00:22:58,967
Speaker 2: they've been both the subject of a warm welcome from

467
00:22:58,967 --> 00:23:02,647
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister and other dignitaries, and protested by Senator

468
00:23:02,727 --> 00:23:06,167
Speaker 2: Lydia Thorpe, who has shouted fuck the colony and you'll

469
00:23:06,207 --> 00:23:09,167
Speaker 2: never be our King at Charles during a fancy lone

470
00:23:09,407 --> 00:23:12,727
Speaker 2: time reception. But if you'd almost missed the fact that

471
00:23:12,847 --> 00:23:15,447
Speaker 2: King Charles and Queen Camilla have arrived in Australia, you

472
00:23:15,447 --> 00:23:18,047
Speaker 2: couldn't really be blamed. They arrived on Saturday and it

473
00:23:18,087 --> 00:23:21,287
Speaker 2: was raining. That never helps royal tours. If it's raining,

474
00:23:21,367 --> 00:23:23,447
Speaker 2: it's not good. That's why they have sea through umbrellas

475
00:23:23,727 --> 00:23:25,767
Speaker 2: so you can still see them getting off the plane.

476
00:23:26,047 --> 00:23:27,247
Speaker 3: But still they'd be used to.

477
00:23:28,047 --> 00:23:31,447
Speaker 2: Well, yes, they're very used to the rain. They arrived

478
00:23:31,447 --> 00:23:34,207
Speaker 2: on Saturday. They're in Sydney yesterday, they're in Canberra today.

479
00:23:34,207 --> 00:23:35,767
Speaker 2: Then they're in Sydney tomorrow and that's it.

480
00:23:36,087 --> 00:23:36,287
Speaker 1: Right.

481
00:23:36,367 --> 00:23:38,127
Speaker 2: It's a flying visit for a few reasons.

482
00:23:38,207 --> 00:23:40,007
Speaker 1: Oddly worth coming, I know. Right.

483
00:23:40,087 --> 00:23:43,007
Speaker 2: So this tour was one of the first ones announced

484
00:23:43,047 --> 00:23:45,967
Speaker 2: after King Charles got coronated over a year ago, and

485
00:23:46,087 --> 00:23:50,487
Speaker 2: after his cancer diagnosis became public. Of course all professional

486
00:23:50,527 --> 00:23:54,047
Speaker 2: activities were suspended. But rather than cancel this tour, it's

487
00:23:54,087 --> 00:23:57,327
Speaker 2: just been really scaled back. And all the Royal insiders

488
00:23:57,367 --> 00:24:00,127
Speaker 2: and the reporters say that he is a workaholic and

489
00:24:00,207 --> 00:24:02,207
Speaker 2: he was absolutely determined he wanted to come.

490
00:24:02,247 --> 00:24:06,327
Speaker 1: Because any Royal insiders are there.

491
00:24:06,407 --> 00:24:11,207
Speaker 2: There are a lot big gossips. He didn't want to

492
00:24:11,247 --> 00:24:13,487
Speaker 2: cancel it all together. But they've lopped off New Zealand.

493
00:24:13,527 --> 00:24:15,207
Speaker 2: They were supposed to do some other things and they

494
00:24:15,247 --> 00:24:17,767
Speaker 2: go to other places. They are literally here for three days, right,

495
00:24:18,767 --> 00:24:21,647
Speaker 2: and while he's here, he's traveling with doctors who would

496
00:24:21,647 --> 00:24:24,567
Speaker 2: probably have rather that he'd stayed home. Also, they've got

497
00:24:24,567 --> 00:24:27,527
Speaker 2: rest days built in and it's all being handled very sensitively,

498
00:24:28,727 --> 00:24:31,047
Speaker 2: but The other reason is I would imagine that the

499
00:24:31,087 --> 00:24:33,687
Speaker 2: reception for Charles and Camilla is so lied on. For example,

500
00:24:33,687 --> 00:24:36,447
Speaker 2: if you go to say the Daily Mail homepage when

501
00:24:36,487 --> 00:24:38,887
Speaker 2: I was coming in here today, it's not even really there.

502
00:24:39,047 --> 00:24:41,607
Speaker 2: It was yesterday when they arrived, but today it's been

503
00:24:41,647 --> 00:24:45,607
Speaker 2: replaced by whatever reality star blah blah like. Normally. Royal's

504
00:24:45,767 --> 00:24:48,527
Speaker 2: wall to wall for this kind of thing is surely

505
00:24:48,847 --> 00:24:52,047
Speaker 2: something about the sort of fading appeal of the monarchy

506
00:24:52,087 --> 00:24:55,407
Speaker 2: full stop. Because while hundreds of people turned out to

507
00:24:55,447 --> 00:24:59,007
Speaker 2: see Charles and Camilla in Sydney yesterday, let's remember that

508
00:24:59,127 --> 00:25:03,087
Speaker 2: in June thousands and thousands of people tested opera house

509
00:25:03,087 --> 00:25:07,007
Speaker 2: security to see YouTube star Mister Beast, and last year

510
00:25:07,327 --> 00:25:10,847
Speaker 2: KSI and Logan Paul actually sent Sydney into a lockdown

511
00:25:11,047 --> 00:25:14,887
Speaker 2: frenzy because so many people came out to see them.

512
00:25:15,247 --> 00:25:17,447
Speaker 2: This isn't how it used to be Back when Queen

513
00:25:17,487 --> 00:25:20,567
Speaker 2: Elizabeth first came to Australia in nineteen fifty four. Obviously

514
00:25:20,607 --> 00:25:22,327
Speaker 2: there weren't so many people here then, but it was

515
00:25:22,447 --> 00:25:26,127
Speaker 2: estimated that three quarters of the population were in her

516
00:25:26,167 --> 00:25:28,687
Speaker 2: physical presence at least once. That's how many people wanted

517
00:25:28,767 --> 00:25:32,327
Speaker 2: to come and see it Now in Australia, only about

518
00:25:32,367 --> 00:25:35,207
Speaker 2: roughly a third of the population cared deeply enough about

519
00:25:35,207 --> 00:25:36,727
Speaker 2: the monarchy to want to get rid of them. Right,

520
00:25:36,767 --> 00:25:40,127
Speaker 2: so about thirty two percent of Australians call themselves Republicans.

521
00:25:40,687 --> 00:25:43,567
Speaker 2: The other two thirds are either love them to bits

522
00:25:43,847 --> 00:25:46,367
Speaker 2: or just don't really care. Is that don't really care

523
00:25:46,447 --> 00:25:51,327
Speaker 2: people who were probably just shrugging and going Is it

524
00:25:51,367 --> 00:25:53,927
Speaker 2: possible that the Royal family, not only here in Australia

525
00:25:53,967 --> 00:25:56,767
Speaker 2: but all over the world might just kind of fade

526
00:25:56,767 --> 00:26:00,087
Speaker 2: away due to lack of interest? Because the truth about

527
00:26:00,127 --> 00:26:02,407
Speaker 2: how we feel about the Royals in twenty twenty four,

528
00:26:02,647 --> 00:26:04,567
Speaker 2: for a lot of people, not all As I learned

529
00:26:04,607 --> 00:26:06,927
Speaker 2: when I wrote something a bit snarky about the Royals

530
00:26:07,247 --> 00:26:09,007
Speaker 2: on the eve of the King's coronation and I got

531
00:26:09,047 --> 00:26:14,567
Speaker 2: absolutely smashed on the Internet for being disrespectful, is that

532
00:26:14,687 --> 00:26:16,687
Speaker 2: for many of the Royals are now just celebrities. And

533
00:26:16,687 --> 00:26:19,247
Speaker 2: whether or not we're interested in particular celebrities depends on

534
00:26:19,607 --> 00:26:22,727
Speaker 2: what they're wearing, how much surgery they've had, how much

535
00:26:22,767 --> 00:26:24,687
Speaker 2: gossip there is in their private life at the moment,

536
00:26:24,887 --> 00:26:28,207
Speaker 2: how much controversy they caught. And Charles and Camilla are

537
00:26:28,247 --> 00:26:28,647
Speaker 2: just a bit.

538
00:26:29,607 --> 00:26:32,367
Speaker 1: I don't know about this. You could be right about Australia.

539
00:26:32,407 --> 00:26:34,447
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's true globally, because look at

540
00:26:34,527 --> 00:26:37,687
Speaker 1: William and Kate's last tour, that was to the Caribbean

541
00:26:37,807 --> 00:26:39,727
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two. They went to Jamaica and the

542
00:26:39,727 --> 00:26:43,687
Speaker 1: Bahamas to celebrate the Queen's Platinum Jubilee. That was not

543
00:26:43,767 --> 00:26:47,327
Speaker 1: a lukewarm reception, that was an antagonistic reception. It was

544
00:26:47,407 --> 00:26:49,527
Speaker 1: widely seen as a disaster of a tour. There was

545
00:26:49,567 --> 00:26:52,767
Speaker 1: this tone death moment where they paraded around in a

546
00:26:53,167 --> 00:26:55,807
Speaker 1: jeep and waved at people in a way that felt

547
00:26:55,927 --> 00:26:57,567
Speaker 1: really way too colonial, and.

548
00:26:57,527 --> 00:27:01,407
Speaker 2: They were and the crowds were photographed being behind fences

549
00:27:02,047 --> 00:27:05,367
Speaker 2: and yeah, it was very on the nose. And also

550
00:27:05,407 --> 00:27:08,407
Speaker 2: there were several nations they visited in that time who

551
00:27:08,447 --> 00:27:11,367
Speaker 2: had recently opted to come out of the Commonwealth.

552
00:27:11,647 --> 00:27:15,087
Speaker 1: Yes, which is awkward. Their royal insider has spoken out

553
00:27:15,127 --> 00:27:17,287
Speaker 1: and suggested that there's not going to be any more

554
00:27:17,327 --> 00:27:19,767
Speaker 1: tours like that for William and Kate, and that was

555
00:27:19,807 --> 00:27:22,207
Speaker 1: sort of the last royal tour of that kind with

556
00:27:22,287 --> 00:27:25,207
Speaker 1: that kind of pomp and ceremony. So I don't know

557
00:27:25,207 --> 00:27:27,447
Speaker 1: if it's a lack of interest. It could be that

558
00:27:27,527 --> 00:27:30,607
Speaker 1: there's something about Charles. I mean, his story is so

559
00:27:30,967 --> 00:27:33,807
Speaker 1: tragic and Shakespearean in so many ways, coming onto the

560
00:27:33,807 --> 00:27:37,007
Speaker 1: throne in his seventies, having waited his whole life for it.

561
00:27:37,527 --> 00:27:40,087
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's something more about Charles and Camilla.

562
00:27:40,567 --> 00:27:45,807
Speaker 4: I also think that Australia broadly is it a crossroads.

563
00:27:46,367 --> 00:27:50,087
Speaker 4: We're at a really awkward moment as a nation with

564
00:27:50,287 --> 00:27:54,927
Speaker 4: the Voice referendum being unsuccessful last year. I don't think

565
00:27:54,927 --> 00:27:57,767
Speaker 4: we know where we're at. If that had been successful,

566
00:27:57,767 --> 00:28:01,127
Speaker 4: I think this would be very different. But I don't

567
00:28:01,167 --> 00:28:03,567
Speaker 4: think any of us know what the future.

568
00:28:03,687 --> 00:28:04,847
Speaker 1: How would it have been different.

569
00:28:04,967 --> 00:28:07,087
Speaker 4: I think it would be more antagonistic. I think that

570
00:28:07,167 --> 00:28:10,407
Speaker 4: if Charles and Camilla were here and it had been

571
00:28:10,447 --> 00:28:11,087
Speaker 4: a yes.

572
00:28:11,327 --> 00:28:13,607
Speaker 1: Because we would have defined the parameters of the nation

573
00:28:13,767 --> 00:28:14,967
Speaker 1: to push back on them.

574
00:28:15,167 --> 00:28:15,927
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

575
00:28:15,967 --> 00:28:18,047
Speaker 4: And even there's a new five dollar bill because of

576
00:28:18,087 --> 00:28:21,207
Speaker 4: course Queen Elizabeth after her passing, they went to change

577
00:28:21,207 --> 00:28:23,767
Speaker 4: the bill and it was decided I think by the

578
00:28:24,047 --> 00:28:27,247
Speaker 4: RBA that they wouldn't put Charles on it. And it's

579
00:28:27,607 --> 00:28:30,367
Speaker 4: me they're doing like an indigenous design. And they had

580
00:28:30,407 --> 00:28:33,847
Speaker 4: this thing where you could submit ideas, and so I

581
00:28:33,887 --> 00:28:36,647
Speaker 4: had never considered that we might just fall out with

582
00:28:36,727 --> 00:28:38,727
Speaker 4: a monarchy and it might just fizzle out, rather than

583
00:28:38,727 --> 00:28:42,527
Speaker 4: it being this massive explosion referendum or something.

584
00:28:42,647 --> 00:28:45,647
Speaker 2: It's interesting because what often comes up and in the

585
00:28:45,807 --> 00:28:49,287
Speaker 2: polling about republicanism when the Queen was alive, a lot

586
00:28:49,367 --> 00:28:53,727
Speaker 2: of Australians said when the Queen dies, we'll be more

587
00:28:53,727 --> 00:28:56,527
Speaker 2: into that. And then the Queen died and Charles took

588
00:28:56,567 --> 00:28:58,927
Speaker 2: the throne, and now almost a third of the people

589
00:28:58,967 --> 00:29:02,807
Speaker 2: polt says when Charles dies, will be more into them.

590
00:29:03,367 --> 00:29:07,167
Speaker 2: And I wonder if there's a Australians are smart and

591
00:29:07,167 --> 00:29:09,887
Speaker 2: they're like, I don't like the idea of the monarchy,

592
00:29:09,967 --> 00:29:13,007
Speaker 2: but it's not really these people's fault. When I was

593
00:29:13,047 --> 00:29:15,247
Speaker 2: talking about I got an enormous backlash when I wrote

594
00:29:15,327 --> 00:29:17,327
Speaker 2: on the eve of the King's coronation, I wrote a

595
00:29:17,367 --> 00:29:19,487
Speaker 2: piece called the Last King of Australia.

596
00:29:19,607 --> 00:29:21,807
Speaker 3: I believe I was only just forgiven you for it.

597
00:29:23,047 --> 00:29:26,287
Speaker 2: I believe Australia should be a republic. But I am

598
00:29:26,367 --> 00:29:31,007
Speaker 2: nothing against Charles himself, like he was born into that system,

599
00:29:31,047 --> 00:29:33,567
Speaker 2: just like William, just like all of them. It's not

600
00:29:33,687 --> 00:29:37,447
Speaker 2: about him. But I think that it would feel almost

601
00:29:37,567 --> 00:29:41,887
Speaker 2: cruel to be very negative about his appearance here.

602
00:29:42,047 --> 00:29:44,967
Speaker 1: You're on just something here. I think Charles has been

603
00:29:45,007 --> 00:29:47,367
Speaker 1: waiting his whole life for this. He hasn't expressed a

604
00:29:47,407 --> 00:29:50,407
Speaker 1: lot of ambivalence about that waiting or about taking on

605
00:29:50,487 --> 00:29:54,247
Speaker 1: that role. William, by contrast, I think it's safe to say,

606
00:29:54,567 --> 00:29:58,527
Speaker 1: has telegraphed to us a profound ambivalence about continuing this.

607
00:29:58,647 --> 00:30:01,487
Speaker 1: His message that he's worried about its effects on his children.

608
00:30:01,607 --> 00:30:03,727
Speaker 1: He's spoken about his desire to try and raise his

609
00:30:03,807 --> 00:30:06,447
Speaker 1: children as normally as possible, in contrast to how he

610
00:30:06,527 --> 00:30:09,247
Speaker 1: was raised as a king in waiting. I wonder if

611
00:30:09,407 --> 00:30:12,247
Speaker 1: William's ambivalence is going to be the permission slip that

612
00:30:12,287 --> 00:30:15,727
Speaker 1: Australia needs to finally servertize.

613
00:30:15,407 --> 00:30:18,407
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that we don't hurt anyone's feelings exactly why

614
00:30:18,487 --> 00:30:19,207
Speaker 3: is Charles here?

615
00:30:19,847 --> 00:30:19,927
Speaker 1: Like?

616
00:30:20,127 --> 00:30:20,767
Speaker 3: Why is here?

617
00:30:21,607 --> 00:30:24,287
Speaker 2: The point of royal tours broadly, and I learned something

618
00:30:24,287 --> 00:30:26,047
Speaker 2: about this in Harry's book. You know, that's one of

619
00:30:26,047 --> 00:30:32,967
Speaker 2: my most studied texts. Spare so obviously the traditional royal

620
00:30:33,047 --> 00:30:35,767
Speaker 2: tour you go to either commonwealth or formerly Commonwealth nations,

621
00:30:36,127 --> 00:30:38,527
Speaker 2: and basically it is a hey, we're still here and

622
00:30:38,567 --> 00:30:40,247
Speaker 2: we remember you or more interested in you, and we

623
00:30:40,287 --> 00:30:43,527
Speaker 2: know what's going on right and it's literally just to

624
00:30:43,567 --> 00:30:46,327
Speaker 2: be seen, because that's the royals job, and you know,

625
00:30:46,407 --> 00:30:48,007
Speaker 2: come and shake hands with the people who are doing

626
00:30:48,007 --> 00:30:49,927
Speaker 2: their good work over here and the people who are

627
00:30:49,927 --> 00:30:52,367
Speaker 2: involved in their various schemes and charities and all those things.

628
00:30:52,927 --> 00:30:55,167
Speaker 2: Obviously today there are for example, at the National War

629
00:30:55,207 --> 00:30:59,487
Speaker 2: Memorial in Canberra, they'll meet with various dignitaries. Usually if

630
00:30:59,527 --> 00:31:01,287
Speaker 2: it was a more expanded tour, they'd meet with lots

631
00:31:01,287 --> 00:31:05,047
Speaker 2: of charity organizations, they'd go and see community groups perform,

632
00:31:05,127 --> 00:31:08,127
Speaker 2: but largely you're there to just go, we see you,

633
00:31:08,207 --> 00:31:11,687
Speaker 2: we remember you now. Harry and Meghan, who are obviously

634
00:31:11,727 --> 00:31:14,207
Speaker 2: starting their sort of version of royal tours over here,

635
00:31:14,247 --> 00:31:16,487
Speaker 2: would also say it's to shine a light on issues

636
00:31:16,527 --> 00:31:18,887
Speaker 2: of importance in parts of the world. So there's also

637
00:31:19,567 --> 00:31:21,567
Speaker 2: they do love that they think that they can direct

638
00:31:21,607 --> 00:31:23,527
Speaker 2: their literary spotlight there, and they're right to a point.

639
00:31:24,167 --> 00:31:26,807
Speaker 2: But also the why is he here is interesting, Jesse,

640
00:31:26,887 --> 00:31:29,047
Speaker 2: because as we said at the beginning, it was going

641
00:31:29,087 --> 00:31:32,007
Speaker 2: to be this big tour of the Pacific, and it's

642
00:31:32,047 --> 00:31:35,927
Speaker 2: been scaled right back to three days and Charles Health

643
00:31:36,007 --> 00:31:39,047
Speaker 2: is obviously not in the best place, but he determined

644
00:31:39,047 --> 00:31:41,127
Speaker 2: to do it, and everybody says he's got this big

645
00:31:41,127 --> 00:31:43,207
Speaker 2: soft spot for Australia. He came to boarding school here

646
00:31:43,247 --> 00:31:44,927
Speaker 2: for a while. He always does lots of embarrassing like

647
00:31:44,967 --> 00:31:47,767
Speaker 2: Australian slang to show how much he gets us and

648
00:31:47,767 --> 00:31:49,807
Speaker 2: all that stuff, because he has said if you want

649
00:31:49,847 --> 00:31:52,167
Speaker 2: to be a republic, yes, it's up to Australia. He

650
00:31:52,207 --> 00:31:54,567
Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be trying to convince us to stay.

651
00:31:54,727 --> 00:31:57,407
Speaker 2: That's the official line, and William is the same. Is

652
00:31:57,527 --> 00:32:00,327
Speaker 2: very much like we're not trying to hold anybody hostage here.

653
00:32:00,847 --> 00:32:04,207
Speaker 2: But I think that the Royal family realizes that every

654
00:32:04,247 --> 00:32:08,087
Speaker 2: time they lose a nation, they lose relevance and importance,

655
00:32:08,207 --> 00:32:11,047
Speaker 2: and they will be whittled down to being like Princess

656
00:32:11,087 --> 00:32:13,287
Speaker 2: Mary and riding a bike around Denmark.

657
00:32:12,767 --> 00:32:19,167
Speaker 1: And William. I've read some analysis by roylandsiders that suggests

658
00:32:19,167 --> 00:32:22,807
Speaker 1: that William wants to act more like a CEO of

659
00:32:22,887 --> 00:32:27,487
Speaker 1: Great Britain rather than that kind of traditional figurehead type role.

660
00:32:27,527 --> 00:32:31,447
Speaker 1: He wants to get involved with causes. Whether that's correct

661
00:32:31,527 --> 00:32:33,607
Speaker 1: or not remains to be seen, But I wonder if

662
00:32:33,607 --> 00:32:36,447
Speaker 1: he inherits that CEO idea. He might not even care

663
00:32:36,527 --> 00:32:41,367
Speaker 1: about having a broader jurisdiction beyond the UK. My only

664
00:32:41,607 --> 00:32:46,247
Speaker 1: remaining question is did Charles bring the man who makes

665
00:32:46,287 --> 00:32:49,407
Speaker 1: the martini for him? Remember that how he always has

666
00:32:49,407 --> 00:32:53,487
Speaker 1: someone trailing behind him to shake up or stir a martini.

667
00:32:53,127 --> 00:32:56,687
Speaker 2: Now and somebody to squeezes toothpaste onto his toothbrush. Of

668
00:32:56,767 --> 00:32:57,367
Speaker 2: course he did.

669
00:32:57,647 --> 00:33:00,527
Speaker 1: I hope it's a Martini card on that seven four seven.

670
00:33:00,647 --> 00:33:03,087
Speaker 3: I hope that his treatment hasn't gotten in the way

671
00:33:03,087 --> 00:33:03,967
Speaker 3: of his martinis.

672
00:33:04,007 --> 00:33:04,847
Speaker 2: Well, I hope not.

673
00:33:07,967 --> 00:33:08,087
Speaker 1: One.

674
00:33:08,247 --> 00:33:12,007
Speaker 4: Unlimited out loud access, we drop episodes every Tuesday and

675
00:33:12,087 --> 00:33:16,567
Speaker 4: Thursday exclusively for Mama Maya subscribers. Follow the link in

676
00:33:16,607 --> 00:33:18,847
Speaker 4: the show notes to get us in your ears five

677
00:33:18,927 --> 00:33:21,407
Speaker 4: days a week. And a huge thank you to all

678
00:33:21,447 --> 00:33:27,527
Speaker 4: our current subscribers.

679
00:33:29,367 --> 00:33:32,687
Speaker 2: Victorious.

680
00:33:32,967 --> 00:33:37,087
Speaker 1: Six years ago, the Victorious Secret Fashion Show was canceled.

681
00:33:37,487 --> 00:33:39,527
Speaker 1: It had been running since two thousand and one. It

682
00:33:39,567 --> 00:33:42,607
Speaker 1: had launched models like Miranda Kerr and Gigi had Died

683
00:33:42,727 --> 00:33:46,207
Speaker 1: into the stratosphere, and at its height it was primetime viewing.

684
00:33:46,287 --> 00:33:49,047
Speaker 1: It reached almost ten million people in twenty thirteen when

685
00:33:49,087 --> 00:33:52,327
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift performed, but in twenty nineteen. It was the

686
00:33:52,367 --> 00:33:54,767
Speaker 1: me too era. It was the first Trump presidency. We

687
00:33:54,767 --> 00:33:57,967
Speaker 1: were wearing pussy hats. The show was literally canceled. Sales

688
00:33:58,007 --> 00:34:00,287
Speaker 1: had already plunged about ten percent year of a year.

689
00:34:00,607 --> 00:34:02,607
Speaker 1: But more to the point, it felt completely out of

690
00:34:02,607 --> 00:34:05,567
Speaker 1: step with the culture. Rihanna had put on her first

691
00:34:05,647 --> 00:34:08,007
Speaker 1: lingerie show at New York Fashion Week the year before.

692
00:34:08,047 --> 00:34:11,847
Speaker 1: Savage X twenty celebrated how diverse in body shape and

693
00:34:11,887 --> 00:34:15,487
Speaker 1: ethnicity and race. That show was the same year Victoria's

694
00:34:15,487 --> 00:34:19,327
Speaker 1: Secrets marketing chief said that transgender models had no place

695
00:34:19,447 --> 00:34:22,927
Speaker 1: in his brand's fantasy. That's his quote, fantasy, not mine,

696
00:34:23,167 --> 00:34:26,687
Speaker 1: and CEO Les Wexner was revealed to have been basically

697
00:34:26,727 --> 00:34:30,407
Speaker 1: bankrolling sex offender Jeffrey Epstein's lifestyle over a decade or

698
00:34:30,407 --> 00:34:33,007
Speaker 1: more so. The show came back this year and they

699
00:34:33,007 --> 00:34:36,287
Speaker 1: made a big show of how enlightened and woke it

700
00:34:36,407 --> 00:34:39,567
Speaker 1: was now. The show featured K pop star Lisa shr

701
00:34:39,887 --> 00:34:43,327
Speaker 1: lots of supermodels. Of course, the voiceover that began the

702
00:34:43,367 --> 00:34:46,847
Speaker 1: show announced that on the runway, it's all about the women.

703
00:34:47,127 --> 00:34:49,087
Speaker 1: But it's safe to say that the reception was a

704
00:34:49,087 --> 00:34:52,327
Speaker 1: little mixed. The New York Times Fashion critic Vanessa Friedman said,

705
00:34:52,807 --> 00:34:54,847
Speaker 1: it's only about the women if you still buy into

706
00:34:54,847 --> 00:34:58,047
Speaker 1: the idea that every woman shares a similar fantasy of

707
00:34:58,087 --> 00:35:00,207
Speaker 1: wanting to be a play act in a present in

708
00:35:00,247 --> 00:35:04,967
Speaker 1: a giant bow, waiting to be literally unwrapped. So what

709
00:35:05,087 --> 00:35:07,727
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about today, though, is not necessarily

710
00:35:07,807 --> 00:35:10,127
Speaker 1: is Victoria's Secret back, because as far as I'm concerned,

711
00:35:10,167 --> 00:35:11,807
Speaker 1: I don't think it really is, and I think the

712
00:35:11,847 --> 00:35:14,927
Speaker 1: show was not seen as an enormous success. But there

713
00:35:15,007 --> 00:35:16,927
Speaker 1: is a theory during the rounds that I wanted to

714
00:35:16,927 --> 00:35:19,727
Speaker 1: bring to you, and I read about it in Puck

715
00:35:19,887 --> 00:35:22,647
Speaker 1: News in a column by their fashion writer Laurence Sherman.

716
00:35:23,047 --> 00:35:26,127
Speaker 1: She said, does the return of the Victoria's Secret Fashion

717
00:35:26,167 --> 00:35:29,807
Speaker 1: Show portend the reelection of Donald Trump? She writes that

718
00:35:29,847 --> 00:35:33,487
Speaker 1: the revival of Victoria's Secret officially marks in some ways

719
00:35:33,527 --> 00:35:37,687
Speaker 1: an official reversal of the broad enlightenment that dawned on

720
00:35:37,767 --> 00:35:41,967
Speaker 1: the culture during the pandemic era, and now that we're

721
00:35:42,007 --> 00:35:44,607
Speaker 1: having it back in our lives again, maybe we're done

722
00:35:44,647 --> 00:35:47,247
Speaker 1: with all that enlightenment and we just want to go

723
00:35:47,367 --> 00:35:51,327
Speaker 1: back to seeing skinny women in fancy bras. And then

724
00:35:51,367 --> 00:35:54,607
Speaker 1: she writes a Trump election might only cement this trend

725
00:35:54,687 --> 00:35:55,367
Speaker 1: in history.

726
00:35:55,687 --> 00:35:57,727
Speaker 2: That's just the most depressing thing.

727
00:35:58,327 --> 00:36:01,327
Speaker 1: Well, I'm your US politics correspondence, so that's what I

728
00:36:01,407 --> 00:36:02,287
Speaker 1: bring to the table.

729
00:36:02,887 --> 00:36:05,207
Speaker 4: Even in terms of Trump, right, there's something hy took

730
00:36:05,447 --> 00:36:08,447
Speaker 4: nostalgia about Trump. The warmth al lot of people feel

731
00:36:08,447 --> 00:36:12,127
Speaker 4: for him is that he's in this figure in America

732
00:36:12,167 --> 00:36:14,807
Speaker 4: that represents this simpler time. It's funny because I'm not

733
00:36:14,807 --> 00:36:17,247
Speaker 4: sure it actually was simpler, but in our minds.

734
00:36:17,127 --> 00:36:18,247
Speaker 1: He was in home alone.

735
00:36:18,487 --> 00:36:20,527
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, that there's a.

736
00:36:20,447 --> 00:36:22,127
Speaker 2: Warm sex in the city once.

737
00:36:21,927 --> 00:36:22,847
Speaker 3: There's a warmth to it.

738
00:36:22,927 --> 00:36:26,327
Speaker 4: And in particular, I think that the comeback of Victoria's

739
00:36:26,367 --> 00:36:28,647
Speaker 4: Secret in this way, which just felt sort of come

740
00:36:28,647 --> 00:36:29,207
Speaker 4: out of nowhere.

741
00:36:29,287 --> 00:36:31,527
Speaker 2: Nobody asked for it, did they. I was all of

742
00:36:31,527 --> 00:36:33,247
Speaker 2: a sudden, it was all over my feet and I

743
00:36:33,287 --> 00:36:34,767
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I thought we were done with this.

744
00:36:34,887 --> 00:36:37,487
Speaker 4: And millennials in particular didn't quite know what to make

745
00:36:37,527 --> 00:36:40,247
Speaker 4: of it because the last time they watched it, they

746
00:36:40,247 --> 00:36:43,527
Speaker 4: were in like a toxic, abusive relationship with the show,

747
00:36:44,047 --> 00:36:45,687
Speaker 4: and then it kind of came back and they were like,

748
00:36:45,847 --> 00:36:49,807
Speaker 4: I am feeling complicated feelings because it's almost and this

749
00:36:49,887 --> 00:36:52,567
Speaker 4: word is overused, but like It's quite triggering for millennials

750
00:36:52,567 --> 00:36:56,127
Speaker 4: because for a lot of them, it was this appointment

751
00:36:56,207 --> 00:36:58,607
Speaker 4: viewing where you would like run home from school. My

752
00:36:58,607 --> 00:37:00,687
Speaker 4: friends were talking about it. You would go home from school,

753
00:37:01,127 --> 00:37:04,447
Speaker 4: sit down, everyone would watch it. You would then hear

754
00:37:04,487 --> 00:37:07,847
Speaker 4: all their diet like Adriana Lima. I remember, like I

755
00:37:07,887 --> 00:37:10,047
Speaker 4: can tell you that she didn't drink water for twelve

756
00:37:10,087 --> 00:37:10,647
Speaker 4: hours before that.

757
00:37:11,247 --> 00:37:15,127
Speaker 1: She also famously said she prepared for this like an athlete,

758
00:37:15,167 --> 00:37:17,367
Speaker 1: and she did not eat for four days before.

759
00:37:17,647 --> 00:37:19,967
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and remember she had a baby and then

760
00:37:19,967 --> 00:37:23,527
Speaker 4: she came back like weeks afterwards, and her body was

761
00:37:23,847 --> 00:37:28,407
Speaker 4: this big discussion point that's similar to you and me, right, yes, exactly,

762
00:37:28,447 --> 00:37:31,207
Speaker 4: And we decided to do it from my feather bra yeah,

763
00:37:31,287 --> 00:37:32,847
Speaker 4: not bleeding from every.

764
00:37:33,727 --> 00:37:35,927
Speaker 2: One of my room for a maxi path. In some

765
00:37:36,007 --> 00:37:36,687
Speaker 2: of those there is.

766
00:37:36,727 --> 00:37:38,887
Speaker 1: Not a lot of mesh underwear that you got free

767
00:37:38,927 --> 00:37:39,647
Speaker 1: from the hospital.

768
00:37:39,767 --> 00:37:40,167
Speaker 2: Not good.

769
00:37:40,687 --> 00:37:42,727
Speaker 4: One of my friends was telling me that she worked

770
00:37:42,727 --> 00:37:45,687
Speaker 4: in a gym and she remembers that the day after

771
00:37:45,847 --> 00:37:48,207
Speaker 4: they had to like put on extra staff because the

772
00:37:48,287 --> 00:37:50,967
Speaker 4: day after the Victoria's Secret Show was their busiest day

773
00:37:50,967 --> 00:37:53,047
Speaker 4: of the year. It was just full of women being

774
00:37:53,047 --> 00:37:54,847
Speaker 4: like I need to go and do my crunches.

775
00:37:54,487 --> 00:37:57,927
Speaker 2: And sometimes I'm disappointed in us. All No, where is

776
00:37:57,967 --> 00:37:58,727
Speaker 2: this nonsense.

777
00:37:58,927 --> 00:38:00,287
Speaker 3: It's brain where brainwashed?

778
00:38:00,327 --> 00:38:00,567
Speaker 2: Holley.

779
00:38:00,647 --> 00:38:01,287
Speaker 3: We're broken.

780
00:38:01,447 --> 00:38:04,327
Speaker 1: And when you think about the fact that what really

781
00:38:04,327 --> 00:38:07,967
Speaker 1: did that show in it wasn't really the unrealistic bodies

782
00:38:08,007 --> 00:38:11,167
Speaker 1: that would have continued. It was the worst story of all.

783
00:38:11,287 --> 00:38:15,447
Speaker 1: It was that Jeffrey Epstein, this convicted pedophile, had been

784
00:38:15,487 --> 00:38:18,967
Speaker 1: living this high lifestyle because the CEO of Victoria's Secret

785
00:38:19,047 --> 00:38:21,047
Speaker 1: decided that he was going to paying fifty million dollars

786
00:38:21,047 --> 00:38:23,687
Speaker 1: a year to quote unquote manage his money. It had

787
00:38:23,767 --> 00:38:26,927
Speaker 1: to take that for the Victoria's Secret Show to be dismantled.

788
00:38:27,207 --> 00:38:28,207
Speaker 3: I disagree. It was that.

789
00:38:28,647 --> 00:38:31,367
Speaker 4: I think the thing that made the Victoria's Secret Show dismantled.

790
00:38:31,487 --> 00:38:33,647
Speaker 4: There wasn't appointment viewing anymore. You couldn't get people to

791
00:38:33,687 --> 00:38:36,807
Speaker 4: watch television, so television rates went right down, which is

792
00:38:36,847 --> 00:38:38,927
Speaker 4: the big question, Well, then why is it back?

793
00:38:39,487 --> 00:38:42,287
Speaker 3: The answer always comes back to capitalism. Prime video.

794
00:38:42,647 --> 00:38:45,687
Speaker 4: They were able to show this on Prime Video alongside

795
00:38:45,767 --> 00:38:49,567
Speaker 4: shop the Looks, So this was an exercise in getting

796
00:38:49,607 --> 00:38:50,167
Speaker 4: people to do.

797
00:38:50,527 --> 00:38:52,687
Speaker 1: Did you shop any looks?

798
00:38:53,247 --> 00:38:53,727
Speaker 2: I didn't.

799
00:38:53,967 --> 00:38:55,167
Speaker 3: I didn't shop any looks.

800
00:38:56,087 --> 00:38:58,647
Speaker 2: I did not, although one of my dirty little secrets

801
00:38:58,727 --> 00:39:01,727
Speaker 2: is that many years ago I was in Las Vegas

802
00:39:01,727 --> 00:39:04,687
Speaker 2: and I went into a Victoria's Secret shop and bought

803
00:39:04,687 --> 00:39:07,167
Speaker 2: myself a bra that I would say to this day

804
00:39:07,287 --> 00:39:11,767
Speaker 2: has been my favorite bra. Anyway, that I digress, I.

805
00:39:11,687 --> 00:39:14,807
Speaker 4: Have a confession, Holly, and that is the Victorious Secret

806
00:39:14,887 --> 00:39:18,327
Speaker 4: bikinis were great. They offered really good support, and they've

807
00:39:18,367 --> 00:39:20,127
Speaker 4: stopped uring the bikinis I used to order them from

808
00:39:20,167 --> 00:39:21,767
Speaker 4: the US with all the mark up.

809
00:39:21,847 --> 00:39:23,767
Speaker 2: We need to stop talking about this because we're giving

810
00:39:23,807 --> 00:39:28,567
Speaker 2: them too much credit. Anyway, I'm worried about Amelia's theory

811
00:39:28,727 --> 00:39:31,407
Speaker 2: about trump Ism because I think it's right, because I think,

812
00:39:31,447 --> 00:39:35,527
Speaker 2: obviously Jesse your correct capitalism, et cetera. Also, I think

813
00:39:35,527 --> 00:39:38,287
Speaker 2: that the marketing model of Victorias Secret because I watched

814
00:39:38,287 --> 00:39:40,807
Speaker 2: that documentary, the one that was revealed all the awfulness,

815
00:39:41,087 --> 00:39:43,287
Speaker 2: and it was saying at the beginning, you know men

816
00:39:43,407 --> 00:39:45,807
Speaker 2: by the underwear for women, and so let's sell to

817
00:39:45,887 --> 00:39:48,327
Speaker 2: the men. I'm like, come on, no, modern men are

818
00:39:48,367 --> 00:39:53,567
Speaker 2: buying that. Also, the Victoria's Secret show men never watched that. No,

819
00:39:53,647 --> 00:39:54,047
Speaker 2: they did.

820
00:39:54,567 --> 00:39:58,767
Speaker 4: They did offer me did and maybe they had the

821
00:39:58,807 --> 00:40:01,407
Speaker 4: posters up, but it was the women who like lusted

822
00:40:01,447 --> 00:40:02,607
Speaker 4: over the bodies rather than that.

823
00:40:02,687 --> 00:40:05,967
Speaker 2: But it was well, no, men definitely over the bodies.

824
00:40:06,047 --> 00:40:09,767
Speaker 2: They were like culturally, I remember watching some Australian like

825
00:40:09,887 --> 00:40:11,487
Speaker 2: not The Secret Life of Us, but one of those

826
00:40:11,567 --> 00:40:13,367
Speaker 2: kind of shows, and one of the sticks was all

827
00:40:13,407 --> 00:40:16,527
Speaker 2: the guys getting together pizza ber let's watch Victoria's sek Like, yeah,

828
00:40:16,567 --> 00:40:21,407
Speaker 2: for sure. Men anyway, all those things contributed to its demise.

829
00:40:21,447 --> 00:40:24,207
Speaker 2: Old fashioned business model, blah blah blah blah, appointment viewing.

830
00:40:24,687 --> 00:40:29,247
Speaker 2: But also it was just exceptionally uncool, right, exceptionally uncool

831
00:40:29,327 --> 00:40:32,527
Speaker 2: over the past five years at least, maybe more to

832
00:40:33,287 --> 00:40:37,167
Speaker 2: admit even that that was seductive to you as a woman.

833
00:40:37,607 --> 00:40:40,287
Speaker 2: But now we are in the era of traadwives, and

834
00:40:40,367 --> 00:40:42,727
Speaker 2: we are in the era of going we are tired

835
00:40:42,887 --> 00:40:45,807
Speaker 2: of having to fix everything and represent everything and r

836
00:40:46,447 --> 00:40:49,887
Speaker 2: and I think you're right, there's a retro appeal. The

837
00:40:49,967 --> 00:40:53,727
Speaker 2: whole idea that it could foretell the American election is

838
00:40:53,767 --> 00:40:56,847
Speaker 2: so depressing that it makes my head hurt. But again,

839
00:40:57,527 --> 00:40:59,487
Speaker 2: the thing is is that you're right, Jesse, that there's

840
00:40:59,487 --> 00:41:01,487
Speaker 2: a sort of among a lot of people, there's a

841
00:41:01,647 --> 00:41:04,567
Speaker 2: level of almost affection for Trump as this kind of

842
00:41:05,447 --> 00:41:07,527
Speaker 2: I'm going to use the awful term politically incorrect, but

843
00:41:07,647 --> 00:41:11,447
Speaker 2: you know, non serious figure. But at least he's entertaining,

844
00:41:11,847 --> 00:41:13,847
Speaker 2: And it's the same thing. It's like, we might know

845
00:41:14,007 --> 00:41:17,807
Speaker 2: that it's wrong to elevate these impossible beauty standards, but

846
00:41:17,847 --> 00:41:20,247
Speaker 2: it's entertaining and it's fun, and who doesn't want to

847
00:41:20,247 --> 00:41:23,647
Speaker 2: look at beautiful women wearing diamond bikinis? And like, we're

848
00:41:23,647 --> 00:41:26,407
Speaker 2: in a moment of trying to shrug off the heaviness

849
00:41:26,607 --> 00:41:31,727
Speaker 2: of the world, ironically by possibly ushering in an exceptionally

850
00:41:31,847 --> 00:41:36,367
Speaker 2: heavy and sinister era if Trump does get reelected. But

851
00:41:36,527 --> 00:41:37,967
Speaker 2: I do think there's something to this.

852
00:41:38,207 --> 00:41:41,567
Speaker 1: Well, it's often been said that politics is a pendulum swing,

853
00:41:41,807 --> 00:41:45,127
Speaker 1: and we had a pendulum swing from the first black

854
00:41:45,167 --> 00:41:49,487
Speaker 1: president to Donald Trump and then Joe Biden. He wasn't

855
00:41:49,487 --> 00:41:52,087
Speaker 1: really a pendulum swing. He's just sort of hovering in

856
00:41:52,127 --> 00:41:54,887
Speaker 1: the middle. But then, I mean, the show was playing

857
00:41:54,927 --> 00:41:58,287
Speaker 1: off that idea of nostalgia very explicitly. Kate Moss walks

858
00:41:58,287 --> 00:42:00,007
Speaker 1: to the catwalk, which I know that you would have

859
00:42:00,087 --> 00:42:03,607
Speaker 1: loved Holly, and then her daughter, Lyla Moss also made

860
00:42:03,687 --> 00:42:06,527
Speaker 1: her catwalk debut, So there was this idea of very

861
00:42:06,567 --> 00:42:10,207
Speaker 1: explicitly tapping into nostalgia. I do think that there's a

862
00:42:10,287 --> 00:42:14,407
Speaker 1: sense that people are tired of the often seen as

863
00:42:14,407 --> 00:42:17,007
Speaker 1: the virtue signaling of the last few years, and this

864
00:42:17,127 --> 00:42:20,247
Speaker 1: return to the campusesthetics of Victoria's Secret. Well, at least

865
00:42:20,287 --> 00:42:20,847
Speaker 1: they're fun.

866
00:42:21,247 --> 00:42:22,887
Speaker 2: At least it's fun, and who doesn't like it? And

867
00:42:22,927 --> 00:42:24,567
Speaker 2: do I have to pretend that I don't like it?

868
00:42:24,607 --> 00:42:25,927
Speaker 2: And all of those kind of they.

869
00:42:25,807 --> 00:42:29,167
Speaker 4: Did have to parcel it, and I think that this

870
00:42:29,287 --> 00:42:32,927
Speaker 4: actually speaks to an undermining of feminism more broadly. But

871
00:42:32,967 --> 00:42:34,847
Speaker 4: they know they have to parsele it as feminine.

872
00:42:34,927 --> 00:42:37,847
Speaker 2: There was some diversity on the catalk. I saw thighs,

873
00:42:38,127 --> 00:42:41,327
Speaker 2: and I saw people over the age of thirty yep,

874
00:42:41,447 --> 00:42:42,567
Speaker 2: and tyrol.

875
00:42:42,367 --> 00:42:44,967
Speaker 1: That's interesting that the so called plast sized models were

876
00:42:44,967 --> 00:42:46,287
Speaker 1: the most covered up of all.

877
00:42:46,327 --> 00:42:48,647
Speaker 4: Oh always and Tyra Banks was almost head to toe

878
00:42:48,727 --> 00:42:51,167
Speaker 4: covered up with a cape, with a cape exactly right.

879
00:42:51,567 --> 00:42:54,007
Speaker 4: But there was a line that one of the commentators

880
00:42:54,047 --> 00:42:57,687
Speaker 4: said about how Victoria's Secret is so committed to female

881
00:42:57,727 --> 00:43:00,207
Speaker 4: confidence and so they know that I have to parcel

882
00:43:00,247 --> 00:43:02,607
Speaker 4: it as empowerment and like sell it to us as

883
00:43:02,647 --> 00:43:04,407
Speaker 4: that rather than mutilating.

884
00:43:05,167 --> 00:43:06,447
Speaker 3: That's the thing That's what.

885
00:43:06,447 --> 00:43:08,487
Speaker 1: We've all got to work on. And now we have

886
00:43:08,567 --> 00:43:10,567
Speaker 1: the Maraboo feather brad to do it.

887
00:43:10,567 --> 00:43:14,007
Speaker 2: With, which you can't even wear under a nice T shirt,

888
00:43:14,047 --> 00:43:16,887
Speaker 2: can't you, because those feathers stick out pop in the nose.

889
00:43:17,367 --> 00:43:19,447
Speaker 2: Come on, now, while I've got you here, Amelia, there's

890
00:43:19,447 --> 00:43:21,487
Speaker 2: something I have to ask you about about the reelection

891
00:43:21,527 --> 00:43:25,367
Speaker 2: of Donald Trump. Elon Musk is giving away a million

892
00:43:25,487 --> 00:43:28,167
Speaker 2: dollars a day between now and the election to people

893
00:43:28,527 --> 00:43:30,887
Speaker 2: who sign up to vote Republican? Is that? Did I

894
00:43:30,927 --> 00:43:33,447
Speaker 2: get that right? I saw this head of a label I

895
00:43:33,527 --> 00:43:34,567
Speaker 2: thought I was going to ask.

896
00:43:34,807 --> 00:43:37,007
Speaker 1: The New York Times had a long article today where

897
00:43:37,007 --> 00:43:39,967
Speaker 1: they were asking experts about it because it is potentially

898
00:43:40,087 --> 00:43:43,007
Speaker 1: in violation of federal election laws. But yes, it's true.

899
00:43:43,047 --> 00:43:46,727
Speaker 1: He is giving away one million dollars a day randomly

900
00:43:47,207 --> 00:43:51,207
Speaker 1: to a registered Pennsylvania voter who signs a conservative petition

901
00:43:51,847 --> 00:43:54,367
Speaker 1: put together by his super pack, which basically means his

902
00:43:54,567 --> 00:43:57,247
Speaker 1: like dark money organization that can collect money for Trump

903
00:43:57,247 --> 00:44:00,047
Speaker 1: and funnel it to him without anyone knowing. So, yes,

904
00:44:00,087 --> 00:44:02,607
Speaker 1: it may or may not contravene federal law. But I

905
00:44:02,727 --> 00:44:05,727
Speaker 1: find the mask going all in on Trump thing. It's

906
00:44:05,767 --> 00:44:08,327
Speaker 1: sort of like the worst timeline is the phrase that

907
00:44:08,367 --> 00:44:11,287
Speaker 1: comes to mind when I see the world's richest man

908
00:44:11,927 --> 00:44:14,087
Speaker 1: pushing Donald Trump on everyone.

909
00:44:14,607 --> 00:44:16,687
Speaker 3: But I feel like Elon Musks sat down to watch

910
00:44:16,687 --> 00:44:18,087
Speaker 3: that Victoria's Secret show.

911
00:44:18,087 --> 00:44:23,327
Speaker 1: I can see committed a female confidence. It does beg

912
00:44:23,327 --> 00:44:26,407
Speaker 1: the question of what Mask wants from Trump, because it

913
00:44:26,487 --> 00:44:28,687
Speaker 1: looks sinister to me. It looks sinister.

914
00:44:28,887 --> 00:44:29,407
Speaker 3: Yeah.

915
00:44:29,487 --> 00:44:32,287
Speaker 1: The bottom line is he wants government money. He wants

916
00:44:32,287 --> 00:44:34,567
Speaker 1: the dialing back of regulations. He wants to put a

917
00:44:34,567 --> 00:44:37,207
Speaker 1: fully autonomous vehicle on the market. Now those have been

918
00:44:37,247 --> 00:44:40,367
Speaker 1: shown to be not very safe, and he wants to

919
00:44:40,407 --> 00:44:42,967
Speaker 1: push aside all the regulations and the safety laws and

920
00:44:43,007 --> 00:44:45,167
Speaker 1: get that on the market. So it's just as sinister

921
00:44:45,287 --> 00:44:45,847
Speaker 1: as you thought.

922
00:44:46,047 --> 00:44:48,087
Speaker 2: Quite a lot of the I mean, I know that

923
00:44:48,207 --> 00:44:50,967
Speaker 2: Musk transcends Silicon Valley, but quite a lot of the

924
00:44:51,007 --> 00:44:54,087
Speaker 2: Silicon Valley tech bros. Trump is these days, aren't they

925
00:44:54,167 --> 00:44:56,927
Speaker 2: And surely it's all about the regulations, right, the looming

926
00:44:56,967 --> 00:45:01,047
Speaker 2: regulation and they're just like no, and he's gonna reward innovation.

927
00:45:01,487 --> 00:45:04,207
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is how AI ends up taking over the world.

928
00:45:04,207 --> 00:45:06,807
Speaker 2: And there's no But again, back to this idea of

929
00:45:06,967 --> 00:45:09,567
Speaker 2: the way that we consume news. Now, even my kids,

930
00:45:09,567 --> 00:45:11,127
Speaker 2: they know who Trump is, they know who Musk is.

931
00:45:11,167 --> 00:45:16,127
Speaker 2: They're like colorful cartoon characters who they find entertaining and

932
00:45:16,167 --> 00:45:16,927
Speaker 2: they want to watch.

933
00:45:17,047 --> 00:45:19,807
Speaker 1: They're the celebrities that people want to watch. And the

934
00:45:19,887 --> 00:45:22,247
Speaker 1: royals have somehow missed the boat on that.

935
00:45:22,687 --> 00:45:25,127
Speaker 3: Have you ever seen a good TikTok of Charles?

936
00:45:26,047 --> 00:45:28,967
Speaker 1: He needs to give mar Tini maker needs to have

937
00:45:29,007 --> 00:45:30,207
Speaker 1: a TikTok account.

938
00:45:30,407 --> 00:45:35,167
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's genius. Embrace it. Embrace the ridiculousness

939
00:45:35,167 --> 00:45:37,407
Speaker 2: of the fact that whatever Charles goes stay anywhere someone

940
00:45:37,447 --> 00:45:40,047
Speaker 2: comes before to hang pictures on the walls and make

941
00:45:40,087 --> 00:45:40,407
Speaker 2: the bed.

942
00:45:40,527 --> 00:45:44,687
Speaker 1: It's the Susan Sarandon's son strategy. He's become a TikTok celebrity,

943
00:45:44,767 --> 00:45:48,487
Speaker 1: embracing the NEPO baby label. Yeah, now Charles can embrace

944
00:45:48,527 --> 00:45:52,287
Speaker 1: the out of touch label. Seth done out Louder.

945
00:45:52,447 --> 00:45:55,047
Speaker 4: If you enjoy listening to this podcast, it would mean

946
00:45:55,207 --> 00:45:57,447
Speaker 4: so much to us if you would be willing to

947
00:45:57,487 --> 00:45:59,087
Speaker 4: take just a few seconds and we're going to ask

948
00:45:59,127 --> 00:46:01,847
Speaker 4: you to do three things, but they're not three big picks. First,

949
00:46:02,127 --> 00:46:05,167
Speaker 4: please follow or subscribe to Mummy or out Loud, whatever

950
00:46:05,687 --> 00:46:08,567
Speaker 4: podcast out you're listening to this in just hit follow.

951
00:46:08,927 --> 00:46:12,047
Speaker 4: It helps because you never miss an episode.

952
00:46:11,767 --> 00:46:13,567
Speaker 2: While you're there. If you'd be willing to give us

953
00:46:13,567 --> 00:46:15,807
Speaker 2: a five star review, that would be amazing.

954
00:46:16,327 --> 00:46:18,367
Speaker 4: And number three, if you want to share this episode

955
00:46:18,407 --> 00:46:19,887
Speaker 4: with a friend. Do you think a friend would get

956
00:46:19,887 --> 00:46:22,127
Speaker 4: something out of it, then we would be so grateful

957
00:46:22,167 --> 00:46:23,167
Speaker 4: for you to forward it on.

958
00:46:23,927 --> 00:46:26,207
Speaker 2: That's all we've got time for today. Thank you Amelia

959
00:46:26,287 --> 00:46:29,087
Speaker 2: Lester for filling in for me. A freedman, my pleasure.

960
00:46:29,327 --> 00:46:31,087
Speaker 2: It has been great to have you back in the studio.

961
00:46:31,727 --> 00:46:33,247
Speaker 2: Of course, you'll be back later in the week to

962
00:46:33,247 --> 00:46:35,527
Speaker 2: tell us about the latest with the US election, maybe

963
00:46:35,527 --> 00:46:41,207
Speaker 2: with some Victoria's secret underwear not on prony that approriate

964
00:46:41,447 --> 00:46:44,367
Speaker 2: no shit. A massive thank you to all of the

965
00:46:44,407 --> 00:46:46,887
Speaker 2: out louders for listening to today's show and to our

966
00:46:46,887 --> 00:46:49,047
Speaker 2: fabulous team for putting this show together. We're going to

967
00:46:49,047 --> 00:46:50,407
Speaker 2: be back in your ears tomorrow.

968
00:46:50,447 --> 00:46:51,327
Speaker 3: Bye bye.

969
00:46:51,887 --> 00:46:54,727
Speaker 2: Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you

970
00:46:54,927 --> 00:46:57,767
Speaker 2: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing

971
00:46:57,807 --> 00:47:00,247
Speaker 2: to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.

972
00:47:00,407 --> 00:47:03,927
Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode description, so