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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. Mama Miya acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on Hello, I'm mea Friedman and it's hot

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Speaker 1: pod Summer. The team at Mum and Maya are bringing

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Speaker 1: you hours and hours of extra podcasts in your ears

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Speaker 1: to get you through your road trips, your time at

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Speaker 1: the beach, you're tiding up the house, maybe you're just

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Speaker 1: lying around having a snooze and you need something to

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Speaker 1: fall asleep to. Whatever it is, we are here in

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Speaker 1: your ears to be your summer friends, and at no filter.

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Speaker 1: We've selected some of our most popular, most engaging, most

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Speaker 1: memorable stories to share with you. And the story that

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Speaker 1: I'm bringing you from the vault today is from a

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Speaker 1: conversation I had with Susan Francis in twenty twenty, and

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Speaker 1: it's really hard to give you an overview about it

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Speaker 1: without giving you spoilers because it's just one of those

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Speaker 1: stories that you really have to hear it to believe it.

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Speaker 1: It begins with uncovering the mystery of her biological parents

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Speaker 1: and then it just is towyt staffter twist. Have a listen,

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Speaker 1: Tell me what you think.

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Speaker 2: We were sitting there, and I remember the way Truth

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Speaker 2: came over to give us coffee, and she said something like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's so nice for two sisters to have time to

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Speaker 2: have coffee together. So it was the first time anyone

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Speaker 2: had acknowledged physical appearance between me and somebody else, and

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Speaker 2: also the biological link that we shared, so it was amazing.

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Speaker 2: She was a very soft person, and she felt like

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Speaker 2: my sister. To tell you, the.

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Speaker 1: Truth never has the cliche truth is stranger than fiction

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Speaker 1: applied more than to the life of the woman that

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Speaker 1: you're about to meet. You really couldn't make Susan Francis's

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Speaker 1: life up. It is that extraordinary. It begins with an

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Speaker 1: adoption story and miss of her biological parents. It includes

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Speaker 1: a secret sister, a heartbreaking confrontation, a tragedy, unexpected love,

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Speaker 1: and a series of events that were so dramatic that

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Speaker 1: she had to write them down in a memoir just

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Speaker 1: to make sense of them. It's called The Love That Remains,

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Speaker 1: and Susan is such a wonderful and engaging storyteller with

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Speaker 1: such a big story to tell, and she tells it

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Speaker 1: so beautifully and warmly. I didn't want to skip any

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Speaker 1: of the bits so to do her story and her justice.

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Speaker 1: This No Filter is actually going to be in two parts.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode is about the mystery of Susan's adoption, and

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Speaker 1: it's an adoption and reunion story unlike any you've heard before.

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Speaker 2: Here's Susan Francis.

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Speaker 1: Susan, when did you find out that you were adopted?

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Speaker 2: I always knew I was adopted. I can't remember when

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Speaker 2: Mum and Dad first told me, but I always knew,

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Speaker 2: and I always remember them saying to me, you were adopted,

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Speaker 2: but you're very special. We especially went to get you.

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Speaker 2: We wanted you so badly. We went to the doctor

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Speaker 2: and we got you. So I always knew, but I

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Speaker 2: didn't to begin with, consider it a negative thing.

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Speaker 1: I literally did go to the doctor and get you.

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Speaker 2: Didn't they literally did.

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Speaker 1: They were very different adoption now than it was in

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Speaker 1: the late fifties.

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Speaker 2: Sixty one, nineteen seventy one. It's very different now. They

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Speaker 2: literally so. Mum and dad worked for an accounting firm,

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Speaker 2: so Dad was working of a night time. They're working

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Speaker 2: during the day, working very very hard, and the people

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Speaker 2: that they worked for knew the doctor and knew that

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Speaker 2: Mom and Dad couldn't have children. So the doctor had

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Speaker 2: a baby who was me available available, that's right in

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Speaker 2: the hospital, and mom and dad just turned up one

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Speaker 2: Saturday morning on the recommendation of the people that they

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Speaker 2: worked for, and literally the doctor handed me over and

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Speaker 2: they took me home. And that was it. Like it's

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Speaker 2: bizarre and really like it's changed, obviously, as it should,

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Speaker 2: but that's how it happened.

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Speaker 1: Many years later, you found you tracked down your biological mother.

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Speaker 1: Was she happy to see you, happy.

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Speaker 2: To hear from you?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: No, she was not. In nineteen ninety two, I think

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Speaker 2: it was they changed the legislation and so people who'd

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Speaker 2: been adopted could get their real adoption certificate. And I

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Speaker 2: was really angry about the fact that I could not

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Speaker 2: find out who I was. I couldn't understand why mothers

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Speaker 2: were given the preference over the children, why mother's identities

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Speaker 2: were hidden, and therefore children's identities had to be hidden.

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Speaker 2: And as I grew older and my dad got sick

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Speaker 2: with cancer, I had my own son, and that all

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Speaker 2: happened around about the same time. And because Dad was dying,

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Speaker 2: I started to think, well, these people who had me

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Speaker 2: might also be dying. And then they changed the legislation.

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Speaker 2: I was almost first in line to get my certificate.

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Speaker 2: There was my mother's maiden name, there was her place

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Speaker 2: of birth, and I immediately started looking and eventually found

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Speaker 2: her sister, who said to me on the phone, she

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Speaker 2: will not be happy to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: And I had did that fail?

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Speaker 2: I suppose. I kidded myself thinking that I know I

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Speaker 2: was right with this. You know, I know that she

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Speaker 2: might not want to. I kidded myself thinking that it

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Speaker 2: would be all right. And I kidded myself thinking that

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Speaker 2: what I was really after was just information, But of

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Speaker 2: course underneath there was also some kind of wish for

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Speaker 2: some kind of relationship, some kind of acknowledgment, because I

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Speaker 2: remember when I was on the phone to her, when

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Speaker 2: I rang.

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Speaker 1: What was that phone like? How did you gear yourself

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Speaker 1: up to make that phone call? Where were you?

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Speaker 2: So I was living so my dad. I think my

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Speaker 2: dad had either just passed or he was very close

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Speaker 2: to passing away, and I'd move back to Newcastle to

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Speaker 2: help my mum look after him because he wanted to

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Speaker 2: die at home. And I had John O, who was

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Speaker 2: four years old, and during the week we were living

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Speaker 2: in this little flat in Lambton in Newcastle, and I

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Speaker 2: would go out and look after Dad at Mum's house

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Speaker 2: and then Mum would look after him on the weekend.

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Speaker 2: And Mom came to my flat in Newcastle and she

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Speaker 2: was really supportive and like, I didn't think about it

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Speaker 2: a lot. I just desperately wanted to know and I

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Speaker 2: should like, I know, I shouldn't have done it, but

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Speaker 2: I did. I just rang.

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Speaker 1: And what was the response on the other It.

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Speaker 2: Was really really awful. I can't tell you how awful

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Speaker 2: it was. She she was screaming at me, saying, I

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Speaker 2: don't want to know who you are. I put that

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Speaker 2: time behind me. That was the worst time of my life.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to know who you are. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to know anything about you. And she kept calling

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Speaker 2: me miss Hull. I don't want to know who you are,

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Speaker 2: Miss Hull. I don't want to know about your child.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to know who you are. And she

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Speaker 2: was so cold and so separate, and it felt as

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Speaker 2: if it felt as if I was to blame for

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Speaker 2: this terrible thing that had happened to her. And she

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Speaker 2: also made me feel really cheap, and I'm not quite

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Speaker 2: sure I do remember. Actually I was going to say.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember why she made me feel cheap, but

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Speaker 2: one of the things she said to me was, if

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Speaker 2: you are money, you're not going to get it. And

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Speaker 2: we have very good lawyers and in fact, and I

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Speaker 2: remember thinking like my mum and dad were quite well

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Speaker 2: off by that time. They'd worked very hard. And I

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Speaker 2: had already done my undergraduate degree and I was just

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Speaker 2: about to do a master's degree, and I had John

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Speaker 2: O and I consider myself a certain kind of person.

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Speaker 2: That sounds awful, but I did. And she made me

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Speaker 2: feel like like cheap and grabby, yeah, and unworthy. And

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Speaker 2: I remember saying to her, I just want to know

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Speaker 2: where I'm from, who my father is, what the medical

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Speaker 2: background is, what my cultural background is, what the story is.

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Speaker 1: Who you are, yeah, who I am, where you came from?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? And she just couldn't get past It felt to

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Speaker 2: me like I feel sometimes that maybe I shouldn't put

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Speaker 2: it down too much because she has her own story.

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Speaker 2: But I felt it was very much about her and

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Speaker 2: that this was about something she wanted to forget, and

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Speaker 2: I was that thing that she wanted to that event

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Speaker 2: in her life.

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Speaker 1: How did you react?

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Speaker 2: So I immediately fell into the chair and started crying.

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Speaker 2: And I wrote about this in the book. Mum just

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Speaker 2: picked up the phone, grabbed and she just kept saying

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Speaker 2: over and over and over again, Susan's a good girl.

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Speaker 2: She's a good girl. She just wants to know where

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Speaker 2: she comes from.

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Speaker 1: And that broke my heart, that idea of I mean,

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Speaker 1: every child in moments fantasizes that they might be adopted

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Speaker 1: and there's this perfect mother out there. You really were adopted,

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Speaker 1: and of course I imagine that you had fantasies and thoughts

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Speaker 1: about what she might be like and what that reunion

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Speaker 1: might be like, and so many of the adoption stories

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Speaker 1: we hear are very positive ones. How do you recover

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Speaker 1: from that?

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Speaker 2: So I got really angry.

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Speaker 1: So after the grief, yeah, after.

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Speaker 2: And I suppose it was a few months, like it's

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Speaker 2: well over twenty years now, it's almost thirty years.

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Speaker 1: So you're in your late twenties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just had JOHNO.

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Speaker 1: So he was and you would have been proud, like

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Speaker 1: you would have proud and Mom, tonight, that is a

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Speaker 1: beautiful boy. And I'm successful and I'm getting my masters.

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Speaker 2: Be proud of me, and you know, my dad's dying,

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Speaker 2: so it's really important to me. I've had my child

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Speaker 2: and on the other hand, my dad is dying, so

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Speaker 2: it's this pivotal moment in my life. And John I

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Speaker 2: didn't really look like me, and it was very very

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Speaker 2: important to me to see somebody else who looked like me,

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Speaker 2: because you kind of feel like you've just been made

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Speaker 2: up and put in this spot and there's nothing behind you.

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Speaker 2: You've just been plumped down and there's nothing tethering you

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Speaker 2: to anywhere. And I was so proud of John and

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Speaker 2: as a mother, I was quite I couldn't breastfeed, so

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Speaker 2: I remember, you know, I would hold up the little

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Speaker 2: scoops of formula and use the knife and just make

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Speaker 2: them perfect across because it was so important to me

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Speaker 2: that JOHNO had everything like he was everything to me,

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Speaker 2: and so my love for him compared to her lack

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Speaker 2: of love for me and her reaction to me, the

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Speaker 2: juxtaposition was extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: So you turned up on her doorstep, I truly laugh.

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Speaker 1: It's terrible, but with his like thinking now you think, well,

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Speaker 1: that wasn't a great idea. No it wasn't, but it

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Speaker 1: was an act of desperation.

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Speaker 2: But it was twenty years later, so I wrote her

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Speaker 2: a letter after that first phone call in nineteen ninety two,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to say and in my letter, I was

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Speaker 2: furious and I said, I have rights, you need to

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Speaker 2: tell me these things. And that's when she sent me

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Speaker 2: the letter back saying, oh, your father's an IRA fundraiser.

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Speaker 2: He and I traveled all around australia're raising money. We

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Speaker 2: stopped at Newcastle, you know, to have you and then

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Speaker 2: we kept going around and.

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Speaker 1: The IRA, for people who don't know, is it like

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Speaker 1: a terrorist organization, a domestic terrorist organization in Ireland. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So that was that. That's a weird story.

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Speaker 2: That is such a weird story. And I didn't even

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Speaker 2: know that existed. I knew it existed in America because

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Speaker 2: a lot of Irish people had gone to America, but

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize that happened in the sixties in Australia.

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Speaker 2: So that whole letter to me felt like a total fabrication,

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Speaker 2: that she was just making this story up just to

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Speaker 2: kind of fod me off. And so after that letter,

220
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Speaker 2: and I could never find him. She thought he was

221
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Speaker 2: this name or that name, and I looked and could

222
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Speaker 2: never find him. So I gave up. I gave up

223
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Speaker 2: till twenty twelve, because I thought I'm never going to

224
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Speaker 2: find anything. I certainly could not face her again. She

225
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Speaker 2: really intimidated me, and she really frightened me and I

226
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Speaker 2: and she made me feel so cheap. Cheap's the only

227
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Speaker 2: word I can I can think to use. So I

228
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Speaker 2: didn't want to face her again, and yet you did so.

229
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Speaker 2: Twenty years later, things were very different. Liz, my best friend,

230
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Speaker 2: was dying, and that was terrible. Sorry, you do have

231
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Speaker 2: an ability to put your spot, put your finger on

232
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Speaker 2: a spot.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry.

234
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Speaker 2: If no, it's all right. So she was dying, and

235
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Speaker 2: my mum had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's and I met

236
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Speaker 2: Waine and Wayne said, let's go to Spain. I love you.

237
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Speaker 2: I can give you everything you want. And I realized,

238
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Speaker 2: because Liza died and because Mum was so sick, that

239
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Speaker 2: if I didn't try one last time, I would never know.

240
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Speaker 2: And he was an incredibly strong man, and he said,

241
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Speaker 2: I've got you back. We'll go up there, we'll sort

242
00:14:18,005 --> 00:14:19,565
Speaker 2: it out a little bit. All fine.

243
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Speaker 1: I don't had you guys been together at this time.

244
00:14:22,605 --> 00:14:27,805
Speaker 2: Not very long. He was also a Gemini and probably

245
00:14:27,845 --> 00:14:35,485
Speaker 2: more impulsive than me. If had anything online he was

246
00:14:35,525 --> 00:14:39,285
Speaker 2: looking just for someone to have dinner with, and I

247
00:14:39,325 --> 00:14:41,405
Speaker 2: suppose I was looking for a bit of diversion. Work

248
00:14:41,525 --> 00:14:48,045
Speaker 2: was really hard, the children's lives were very hard, and

249
00:14:48,165 --> 00:14:49,925
Speaker 2: so I went online and he went online at the

250
00:14:49,925 --> 00:14:53,245
Speaker 2: same time. And I was out in the Central West

251
00:14:53,285 --> 00:14:58,565
Speaker 2: and he was in Orange and in that Actually just

252
00:14:58,645 --> 00:15:02,725
Speaker 2: little tip if anyone's looking to meet someone, Central West

253
00:15:02,765 --> 00:15:05,805
Speaker 2: is a great place because there's more men than there

254
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Speaker 2: are women.

255
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Speaker 1: So I was lucky.

256
00:15:08,245 --> 00:15:09,965
Speaker 2: I was just in the right place at the right time,

257
00:15:10,245 --> 00:15:14,485
Speaker 2: and lucky he was, thank you. So yeah, we met

258
00:15:14,485 --> 00:15:25,565
Speaker 2: online and we met physically very soon afterwards.

259
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Speaker 1: How old were you both when you met?

260
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Speaker 2: So, I'm not real good with maths, but I think

261
00:15:31,485 --> 00:15:36,485
Speaker 2: I was around about fifty two fifty three and he

262
00:15:36,805 --> 00:15:38,725
Speaker 2: was fifty seven or fifty eight.

263
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Speaker 1: So you both lived life, you had you had one child,

264
00:15:44,365 --> 00:15:47,845
Speaker 1: or you'd just one chat so you'd had a previous relationship, yes,

265
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Speaker 1: and he what did you know about his background?

266
00:15:51,485 --> 00:15:55,765
Speaker 2: Not a lot. I really jumped in with both feet.

267
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Speaker 2: He told me a little bit about his background, about

268
00:16:01,365 --> 00:16:04,405
Speaker 2: him growing up in New Guinea and how abusive his

269
00:16:04,525 --> 00:16:08,605
Speaker 2: father had been to him. But really maybe it was

270
00:16:08,685 --> 00:16:13,645
Speaker 2: one conversation. Maybe two, but he obviously didn't want to

271
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Speaker 2: talk about it, and I didn't want to push him.

272
00:16:16,165 --> 00:16:19,365
Speaker 2: And the things that he told me about his father,

273
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Speaker 2: like literally the children were brought back to Australia. Wayne

274
00:16:26,285 --> 00:16:30,205
Speaker 2: was five, I think, and his younger brother and maybe

275
00:16:30,245 --> 00:16:35,965
Speaker 2: one other child were brought to Australia and by Wayne's

276
00:16:35,965 --> 00:16:42,045
Speaker 2: mother and the father, who was very dominant in the

277
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Speaker 2: Highlands in New Guinea. He made one of his relatives

278
00:16:48,845 --> 00:16:52,525
Speaker 2: take the children out for an afternoon, so Wayne's mom

279
00:16:52,565 --> 00:16:55,685
Speaker 2: thought they were going for ice cream and literally put

280
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Speaker 2: them on the plane and took them back to New Guinea.

281
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Speaker 2: And I remember my overwhelming when he told me that

282
00:17:04,605 --> 00:17:07,645
Speaker 2: was for his mother because when she went back to

283
00:17:07,845 --> 00:17:11,325
Speaker 2: New Guinea, the father and the way things were back

284
00:17:11,365 --> 00:17:17,965
Speaker 2: then legally and socially, he made sure that she could

285
00:17:17,965 --> 00:17:19,485
Speaker 2: not access the children.

286
00:17:19,685 --> 00:17:22,885
Speaker 1: Wow. So Wayne and his siblings grew up without access

287
00:17:22,925 --> 00:17:23,485
Speaker 1: to their mum.

288
00:17:23,645 --> 00:17:23,845
Speaker 2: Yeah.

289
00:17:24,485 --> 00:17:29,445
Speaker 1: So a lot of shared sort of trauma among you both.

290
00:17:29,645 --> 00:17:33,005
Speaker 1: And he then backed you to go and visit your

291
00:17:33,005 --> 00:17:36,885
Speaker 1: mother in person before you you both decided to move

292
00:17:36,925 --> 00:17:38,925
Speaker 1: to Granada to start this new life.

293
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Speaker 2: And also my father and face some other people that

294
00:17:45,805 --> 00:17:49,525
Speaker 2: I probably needed to face. I was always I think,

295
00:17:49,565 --> 00:17:53,005
Speaker 2: growing up adopted, you are a people pleaser. I'm still

296
00:17:53,005 --> 00:17:55,885
Speaker 2: a people pleaser, although I'm trying really hard.

297
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Speaker 1: To Why do you think that is?

298
00:17:57,445 --> 00:18:01,845
Speaker 2: Oh, it's well documented that children who are adopted are

299
00:18:02,005 --> 00:18:09,245
Speaker 2: terrified of being sent back. So they're given to somebody.

300
00:18:09,085 --> 00:18:12,445
Speaker 2: They have to behave in the very best way they

301
00:18:12,525 --> 00:18:17,885
Speaker 2: can and do everything right so that they're kept and break.

302
00:18:18,245 --> 00:18:21,925
Speaker 2: There's study study studies about this, Like it's a really

303
00:18:21,965 --> 00:18:25,245
Speaker 2: well known well within people who study that kind of stuff.

304
00:18:26,405 --> 00:18:30,005
Speaker 2: So all your life you are trying really hard to

305
00:18:30,045 --> 00:18:31,925
Speaker 2: be loved, That's what it's all about.

306
00:18:32,325 --> 00:18:34,365
Speaker 1: What was it like setting eyes on your mother for

307
00:18:34,405 --> 00:18:38,085
Speaker 1: that first time? How did you get the courage to

308
00:18:38,125 --> 00:18:38,925
Speaker 1: knock on her door?

309
00:18:39,725 --> 00:18:42,285
Speaker 2: I felt I got the courage, and I remember as

310
00:18:42,325 --> 00:18:45,005
Speaker 2: I was running across the road, like I was so

311
00:18:45,165 --> 00:18:49,085
Speaker 2: terrified because I was really scared of her. But I

312
00:18:49,085 --> 00:18:51,085
Speaker 2: also knew that if I didn't do it, I would

313
00:18:51,125 --> 00:18:53,045
Speaker 2: never do it and I would never know, you know,

314
00:18:53,165 --> 00:18:55,485
Speaker 2: so I really really had to do it, even though

315
00:18:55,525 --> 00:19:01,205
Speaker 2: I was so scared, and it was amazing seeing somebody

316
00:19:01,245 --> 00:19:03,645
Speaker 2: that looked like me for a start, she really did.

317
00:19:03,685 --> 00:19:09,605
Speaker 2: There were resemblances, you know, the size of our shoulders out,

318
00:19:09,645 --> 00:19:15,765
Speaker 2: coloring her eyes so that that was extraordinary to see

319
00:19:15,805 --> 00:19:20,605
Speaker 2: somebody who looked like me. But also I could read

320
00:19:20,645 --> 00:19:27,285
Speaker 2: her expression, and it was both an amazing thing and

321
00:19:27,285 --> 00:19:28,245
Speaker 2: a terrible thing.

322
00:19:28,365 --> 00:19:29,325
Speaker 1: She didn't know you were coming.

323
00:19:29,685 --> 00:19:31,645
Speaker 2: No, she didn't, and that was bad. I know that

324
00:19:31,725 --> 00:19:32,125
Speaker 2: was bad.

325
00:19:34,365 --> 00:19:37,165
Speaker 1: You must have still had fantasies of her throwing her

326
00:19:37,245 --> 00:19:38,125
Speaker 1: arms around you, and.

327
00:19:38,045 --> 00:19:40,245
Speaker 2: She yeah, I did. And I thought, I thought, if

328
00:19:40,285 --> 00:19:43,125
Speaker 2: I face her, if she doesn't know I'm coming, and

329
00:19:43,165 --> 00:19:46,245
Speaker 2: I face her, she'll have to tell me stuff. You know,

330
00:19:46,325 --> 00:19:48,605
Speaker 2: She'll have to give me the information that I want,

331
00:19:48,965 --> 00:19:51,805
Speaker 2: because I still knew nothing. You know, twenty years later,

332
00:19:51,885 --> 00:19:55,085
Speaker 2: and I still knew nothing because the letter had seemed

333
00:19:55,205 --> 00:20:00,405
Speaker 2: so so much of a fantasy, and because I could

334
00:20:00,485 --> 00:20:02,805
Speaker 2: never find my father of the names that she'd given me.

335
00:20:03,605 --> 00:20:04,765
Speaker 1: Did she invite you inside?

336
00:20:04,885 --> 00:20:08,525
Speaker 2: Oh god no. She slammed the door in my face,

337
00:20:09,405 --> 00:20:13,805
Speaker 2: and after giving me the name of a man who

338
00:20:13,885 --> 00:20:18,405
Speaker 2: she claimed was my father, I remember her husband stood there.

339
00:20:19,565 --> 00:20:26,805
Speaker 2: We were in the rain on outside. There was screaming, and.

340
00:20:30,325 --> 00:20:31,005
Speaker 1: It was like.

341
00:20:32,685 --> 00:20:34,925
Speaker 2: On one side of the fence was she and on

342
00:20:34,965 --> 00:20:39,085
Speaker 2: the other side of the fence was me. And I

343
00:20:39,165 --> 00:20:41,285
Speaker 2: realized that I was never going to get more than

344
00:20:41,285 --> 00:20:44,285
Speaker 2: what she was giving me that afternoon, which was the

345
00:20:44,365 --> 00:20:46,845
Speaker 2: name supposedly of my father.

346
00:20:48,685 --> 00:20:50,485
Speaker 1: And it was a different name to the one that

347
00:20:50,525 --> 00:20:51,485
Speaker 1: she'd given you before.

348
00:20:51,605 --> 00:20:53,525
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a different name to the one she'd

349
00:20:53,565 --> 00:20:57,365
Speaker 2: given me in the letter. But by this time we

350
00:20:57,405 --> 00:21:00,445
Speaker 2: had Google. So when she'd first given me all those names,

351
00:21:00,565 --> 00:21:02,605
Speaker 2: that was where I would go to the post office

352
00:21:02,605 --> 00:21:06,645
Speaker 2: and look because we had no way of checking those names.

353
00:21:06,805 --> 00:21:09,045
Speaker 2: I had no name, no way of checking those names.

354
00:21:09,045 --> 00:21:12,765
Speaker 2: So you go through all the postbooks at the post office.

355
00:21:13,245 --> 00:21:16,125
Speaker 2: But now I had Google, so raceback, opened the laptop.

356
00:21:16,725 --> 00:21:22,805
Speaker 2: There he is the man that she said was my father, famous,

357
00:21:23,045 --> 00:21:27,645
Speaker 2: semi famous, certainly famous enough to be on Google on

358
00:21:27,685 --> 00:21:34,445
Speaker 2: the internet. AFL player from Melbourne. And then you know,

359
00:21:34,605 --> 00:21:36,605
Speaker 2: checking a little bit more. Yes, he'd been in the

360
00:21:36,645 --> 00:21:40,245
Speaker 2: same place as my mother around about the same time

361
00:21:40,365 --> 00:21:43,925
Speaker 2: as I was born. He was playing country football. So

362
00:21:44,445 --> 00:21:47,765
Speaker 2: you know that's it there. I think I have the story.

363
00:21:47,965 --> 00:21:52,205
Speaker 2: But he wasn't your dad, No, he wasn't. It's hard too,

364
00:21:52,725 --> 00:21:55,605
Speaker 2: and it's funny. I know there are parts that are funny.

365
00:21:55,725 --> 00:21:59,525
Speaker 1: Yes, because what's extraordinary and your right so beautifully about

366
00:21:59,525 --> 00:22:02,365
Speaker 1: this in the book is that you discover that your

367
00:22:02,405 --> 00:22:06,525
Speaker 1: mother had actually had two daughters within eighteen months adopted

368
00:22:06,525 --> 00:22:11,005
Speaker 1: them both out. They were both named Susan, and this

369
00:22:11,205 --> 00:22:14,045
Speaker 1: was the father of the other Susan who she'd had

370
00:22:14,045 --> 00:22:14,925
Speaker 1: and adopted out.

371
00:22:15,245 --> 00:22:15,845
Speaker 2: That's right.

372
00:22:16,965 --> 00:22:20,685
Speaker 1: So you went on to meet the other Susan who

373
00:22:20,765 --> 00:22:23,405
Speaker 1: was your sister? What was that like?

374
00:22:24,525 --> 00:22:29,565
Speaker 2: So she she actually looked more like me than my mother.

375
00:22:29,805 --> 00:22:32,285
Speaker 2: So even sitting there. I went to Melbourne and we

376
00:22:32,325 --> 00:22:39,325
Speaker 2: had coffee and we were sitting there and I remember

377
00:22:40,085 --> 00:22:42,405
Speaker 2: the waitress came over to get us coffee and she

378
00:22:42,485 --> 00:22:45,085
Speaker 2: said something like, oh, it's so nice for two sisters

379
00:22:45,125 --> 00:22:49,045
Speaker 2: to have time to have coffee together. So it was

380
00:22:49,085 --> 00:22:56,805
Speaker 2: the first time anyone had acknowledged physical appearance between me

381
00:22:57,085 --> 00:23:04,125
Speaker 2: and somebody else, and also the biological link that we shared.

382
00:23:05,085 --> 00:23:08,005
Speaker 2: So it was amazing. She was a very soft person

383
00:23:08,605 --> 00:23:12,285
Speaker 2: and she felt like my sister. To tell you the truth,

384
00:23:13,365 --> 00:23:16,685
Speaker 2: we did understand each other to a certain extent, but

385
00:23:17,885 --> 00:23:21,685
Speaker 2: she didn't have the last for knowledge like I did.

386
00:23:21,765 --> 00:23:25,885
Speaker 2: She didn't want to know about our mother. She didn't

387
00:23:25,925 --> 00:23:28,205
Speaker 2: even want to know the name of her father, who

388
00:23:28,365 --> 00:23:30,645
Speaker 2: I knew, but she did not know.

389
00:23:31,445 --> 00:23:34,765
Speaker 1: Had she had a similar experience with your mother of

390
00:23:34,845 --> 00:23:36,725
Speaker 1: being rejected or she hadn't even tried.

391
00:23:37,205 --> 00:23:40,805
Speaker 2: No, she hadn't tried. But she had much more documentation

392
00:23:40,965 --> 00:23:42,925
Speaker 2: than what I had. There was a whole lot of

393
00:23:42,965 --> 00:23:47,485
Speaker 2: documentation from the hospital at the time where she'd been relinquished,

394
00:23:49,325 --> 00:23:56,845
Speaker 2: where our mother's parents, our grandparents had wanted to adopt her.

395
00:23:57,725 --> 00:24:03,965
Speaker 2: Even my mother's sister had wanted to adopt the other Susan,

396
00:24:04,565 --> 00:24:12,325
Speaker 2: but our mother didn't want that. She wanted Susan gone. Gone, yes, gone.

397
00:24:12,605 --> 00:24:18,645
Speaker 2: And so from those notes, the other Susan knew that

398
00:24:18,725 --> 00:24:21,805
Speaker 2: in the woman that I call my birth mother in

399
00:24:21,885 --> 00:24:26,445
Speaker 2: the story wasn't a very nice woman. She'd already deduced that.

400
00:24:26,965 --> 00:24:30,005
Speaker 1: Yeah, so she protected herself by not she did.

401
00:24:30,205 --> 00:24:33,925
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she respect that and I respect that. At

402
00:24:33,965 --> 00:24:35,725
Speaker 2: the end of the conversation, I said to it, look,

403
00:24:35,765 --> 00:24:37,485
Speaker 2: I know who your father is because I thought he

404
00:24:37,605 --> 00:24:42,165
Speaker 2: was my father, and she declined, knowing she didn't want

405
00:24:42,205 --> 00:24:43,285
Speaker 2: that information, and I.

406
00:24:43,285 --> 00:24:47,645
Speaker 1: Ended, I know, imagine having that information right there at

407
00:24:47,725 --> 00:24:50,405
Speaker 1: your fingertips and saying no, I don't, I don't want that.

408
00:24:50,565 --> 00:24:53,045
Speaker 2: I know. It was really like I understand, and I

409
00:24:53,085 --> 00:24:56,485
Speaker 2: don't understand. It's not me, but it's definitely it was

410
00:24:56,525 --> 00:25:01,445
Speaker 2: definitely her, and so we met and we connected and

411
00:25:01,685 --> 00:25:03,885
Speaker 2: I saw somebody who you know, we could have almost

412
00:25:03,965 --> 00:25:04,605
Speaker 2: been twins.

413
00:25:05,925 --> 00:25:07,805
Speaker 1: How did that relationship develop?

414
00:25:07,925 --> 00:25:10,125
Speaker 2: No, so in a month when I went so, I

415
00:25:10,125 --> 00:25:12,685
Speaker 2: thought I'd give her some time. I rang back, but no,

416
00:25:13,365 --> 00:25:15,765
Speaker 2: that she didn't want any more contact with me.

417
00:25:18,325 --> 00:25:21,125
Speaker 1: That must have been heart break on heart break on heart.

418
00:25:21,205 --> 00:25:25,125
Speaker 2: Right now, look, I respect her because at least she

419
00:25:25,205 --> 00:25:27,245
Speaker 2: met me and at least we talked, and at least

420
00:25:27,285 --> 00:25:30,325
Speaker 2: we made that connection, and then she made a decision.

421
00:25:30,965 --> 00:25:33,405
Speaker 2: Not like my mother who just said no from the

422
00:25:33,485 --> 00:25:37,765
Speaker 2: outset and would not move in her position at all.

423
00:25:38,805 --> 00:25:42,805
Speaker 2: Susan at least met me and we talked, and that

424
00:25:42,885 --> 00:25:47,565
Speaker 2: she explained why she So there's two kinds of people

425
00:25:47,605 --> 00:25:49,805
Speaker 2: who are adopted. There are the people like me who

426
00:25:49,845 --> 00:25:53,045
Speaker 2: are desperate to know, and then there are the other

427
00:25:53,165 --> 00:25:56,565
Speaker 2: kind of people who want to stay where they are.

428
00:25:56,645 --> 00:26:00,725
Speaker 2: They don't want to hurt the people who've adopted them.

429
00:26:00,845 --> 00:26:05,045
Speaker 2: They don't want to risk that second rejection. Just happy

430
00:26:05,085 --> 00:26:06,925
Speaker 2: with what I've got. I'm going to be thankful for

431
00:26:07,005 --> 00:26:08,485
Speaker 2: what I've got. I'm going to.

432
00:26:08,485 --> 00:26:11,245
Speaker 1: Stay here because it's a bit complicating factor, isn't it.

433
00:26:11,245 --> 00:26:13,485
Speaker 1: It's like there's you, and then there's JOHNO. And then

434
00:26:13,525 --> 00:26:16,205
Speaker 1: there's Wayne, and then there's your Like, it's a lot

435
00:26:16,325 --> 00:26:19,445
Speaker 1: to take on. I've seen it in friends of mine

436
00:26:19,485 --> 00:26:25,045
Speaker 1: who've discovered siblings. It can be a wonderful thing, but

437
00:26:25,165 --> 00:26:28,085
Speaker 1: it's it's highly disrupting whatever way you look at it.

438
00:26:28,205 --> 00:26:29,685
Speaker 2: And it's highly complex.

439
00:26:29,965 --> 00:26:31,805
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so emotional.

440
00:26:32,045 --> 00:26:38,565
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I sounds awful, but I feel

441
00:26:38,605 --> 00:26:40,645
Speaker 2: like I got from her what it was I was

442
00:26:40,725 --> 00:26:44,685
Speaker 2: looking for. I found her, I met her, I saw

443
00:26:44,725 --> 00:26:47,965
Speaker 2: the resemblance. I found out what her story was, and

444
00:26:48,045 --> 00:26:49,645
Speaker 2: so that satisfied me.

445
00:26:50,485 --> 00:26:53,765
Speaker 1: You did eventually find your father and your biological father,

446
00:26:53,845 --> 00:26:56,685
Speaker 1: and Wayne came with you to meet him. He was

447
00:26:56,685 --> 00:26:57,765
Speaker 1: in Perth, wasn't he?

448
00:26:57,765 --> 00:26:59,805
Speaker 2: He was? He was in Perth. And I would never

449
00:26:59,845 --> 00:27:04,565
Speaker 2: have met him other than the fact that my other

450
00:27:05,205 --> 00:27:10,525
Speaker 2: so complicated, my other stepsister or half sister, who'd been

451
00:27:10,565 --> 00:27:14,925
Speaker 2: a baby when he'd left his wife and the children

452
00:27:14,925 --> 00:27:19,245
Speaker 2: that he'd already had to run around Australia with my

453
00:27:19,405 --> 00:27:24,405
Speaker 2: biological mother. So he left children behind when he ran off,

454
00:27:24,445 --> 00:27:28,125
Speaker 2: and he left some kind of criminal past behind. Anyway,

455
00:27:28,325 --> 00:27:34,325
Speaker 2: I contacted her because I eventually found out his former

456
00:27:34,445 --> 00:27:39,245
Speaker 2: name looking for people with his former name. There she was,

457
00:27:39,645 --> 00:27:42,765
Speaker 2: She said to me, Mary is her name. She said,

458
00:27:42,965 --> 00:27:46,245
Speaker 2: he's living in Perth and he's still living under an alias.

459
00:27:46,565 --> 00:27:48,925
Speaker 2: So he had been with my mother when they'd been

460
00:27:48,925 --> 00:27:52,685
Speaker 2: traveling around Australia. He'd been under an alias because he

461
00:27:52,885 --> 00:27:56,285
Speaker 2: was running away from a criminal past and because he

462
00:27:56,325 --> 00:27:57,285
Speaker 2: was working for the IRA.

463
00:27:58,325 --> 00:28:00,685
Speaker 1: So that was true. That was true.

464
00:28:00,845 --> 00:28:05,725
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was true. And he was still under an alias.

465
00:28:05,925 --> 00:28:08,725
Speaker 2: So I would never ever have found him unless Mary

466
00:28:08,765 --> 00:28:10,845
Speaker 2: had told me what his alias was.

467
00:28:11,965 --> 00:28:16,725
Speaker 1: And he turned very complicated. Well, he turned out to

468
00:28:16,765 --> 00:28:17,725
Speaker 1: be a total creep.

469
00:28:17,845 --> 00:28:21,285
Speaker 2: Oh, he was awful. So he said, we'll meet in

470
00:28:21,285 --> 00:28:24,445
Speaker 2: this pub at lunchtime. It'll be quiet, we'll be able

471
00:28:24,485 --> 00:28:27,325
Speaker 2: to talk. And so Wayne and I walked into this

472
00:28:27,445 --> 00:28:30,805
Speaker 2: pub and like literally there were people spilling out onto

473
00:28:30,845 --> 00:28:34,205
Speaker 2: the road. There was an Irish band playing, there were

474
00:28:34,245 --> 00:28:38,805
Speaker 2: tourists there. It was so crowded, and I never thought

475
00:28:38,885 --> 00:28:40,885
Speaker 2: in a million years we would find him more chat

476
00:28:40,965 --> 00:28:43,965
Speaker 2: and I remember looking across the room and it was

477
00:28:44,045 --> 00:28:47,125
Speaker 2: like when you look at somebody you know now and

478
00:28:47,165 --> 00:28:50,005
Speaker 2: there's an old photograph there from when they were children,

479
00:28:50,045 --> 00:28:52,445
Speaker 2: and you can see the resemblance still, you know, it's

480
00:28:52,485 --> 00:28:54,365
Speaker 2: still there, and as soon as I looked at him,

481
00:28:54,365 --> 00:28:57,125
Speaker 2: I knew him. And I have a photograph of he

482
00:28:57,205 --> 00:29:00,485
Speaker 2: and I together and the resemblance. He's quite strong, but

483
00:29:00,685 --> 00:29:05,325
Speaker 2: he was such a sleeze bag and he was an asshole.

484
00:29:06,045 --> 00:29:07,725
Speaker 1: He was a.

485
00:29:07,685 --> 00:29:14,845
Speaker 2: Liar, kind of sitting on the fence. Half of him

486
00:29:15,365 --> 00:29:19,125
Speaker 2: was saying, yes, I was with her in Newcastle. Yes,

487
00:29:19,245 --> 00:29:22,485
Speaker 2: she told me that she was pregnant. But no, she

488
00:29:22,645 --> 00:29:26,325
Speaker 2: told me that she got it seen to were his words,

489
00:29:26,365 --> 00:29:30,565
Speaker 2: and those words are burned into my brain and I'm like, well,

490
00:29:30,565 --> 00:29:33,245
Speaker 2: here I am. She obviously didn't get it seen too.

491
00:29:34,125 --> 00:29:37,685
Speaker 2: Because you and her were together in a car, traveling

492
00:29:37,685 --> 00:29:44,325
Speaker 2: around Australia together, running from the police, obviously living in

493
00:29:44,485 --> 00:29:48,125
Speaker 2: very tight circumstances. How could you not know that she'd

494
00:29:48,125 --> 00:29:50,005
Speaker 2: had a child? You know?

495
00:29:50,245 --> 00:29:53,565
Speaker 1: So? And he weirdly like almost tried to crack onto you.

496
00:29:53,685 --> 00:29:54,245
Speaker 2: Yeah he did.

497
00:29:54,325 --> 00:29:54,525
Speaker 1: I know.

498
00:29:54,605 --> 00:29:59,285
Speaker 2: It's disgusting. And Mary had said to me from Melbourne

499
00:29:59,405 --> 00:30:05,365
Speaker 2: that he was that's his daughter, Yeah, that's his your

500
00:30:06,245 --> 00:30:11,805
Speaker 2: my heart, yeah, sister, yeah, so that is his daughter.

501
00:30:12,005 --> 00:30:13,645
Speaker 1: Had she warned you that he was not free?

502
00:30:13,765 --> 00:30:17,565
Speaker 2: She had, she had, and in fact, so had my

503
00:30:17,725 --> 00:30:21,605
Speaker 2: biological mother. In that first letter she had said that

504
00:30:21,685 --> 00:30:25,845
Speaker 2: he was not a very nice man, and you still hope. Yeah,

505
00:30:25,845 --> 00:30:27,925
Speaker 2: you still hope, and you still think, well, maybe those

506
00:30:27,925 --> 00:30:32,645
Speaker 2: people's judgments aren't one hundred percent. But I also I

507
00:30:32,685 --> 00:30:35,565
Speaker 2: really like, I was really curious about the IRA thing,

508
00:30:35,765 --> 00:30:38,485
Speaker 2: and you know, is this whole story about them traveling

509
00:30:38,525 --> 00:30:41,365
Speaker 2: around Australia on the run, you know, like it's such

510
00:30:41,365 --> 00:30:46,885
Speaker 2: a fancy, fanciful story, and it was true. And I

511
00:30:46,925 --> 00:30:49,205
Speaker 2: got that from him. I got that information from him.

512
00:30:49,325 --> 00:30:52,005
Speaker 2: It was true, and I do believe he was my father,

513
00:30:52,125 --> 00:30:56,805
Speaker 2: like there's no doubt. So yeah, with all of.

514
00:30:56,725 --> 00:31:01,285
Speaker 1: This, I guess behind you that's still still swirling around

515
00:31:01,405 --> 00:31:03,725
Speaker 1: and very much present. You and Wayne decided to move

516
00:31:03,765 --> 00:31:06,725
Speaker 1: to Spain to Granada. Why did How long had you

517
00:31:06,805 --> 00:31:09,165
Speaker 1: been together? And that's that's a big move to make.

518
00:31:09,365 --> 00:31:14,365
Speaker 2: It's a massive move. What I didn't realize first up

519
00:31:14,445 --> 00:31:17,805
Speaker 2: was that when it had cancer previously and had recovered,

520
00:31:18,325 --> 00:31:22,965
Speaker 2: and also I think it had heart issues, but he

521
00:31:23,005 --> 00:31:26,005
Speaker 2: didn't really talk about it. So for him, it was

522
00:31:26,165 --> 00:31:29,005
Speaker 2: very much about living in the moment. He felt that

523
00:31:29,085 --> 00:31:31,805
Speaker 2: he'd finally found a woman that he could love and

524
00:31:31,805 --> 00:31:36,325
Speaker 2: who would love him. He talked about me being the

525
00:31:36,365 --> 00:31:39,725
Speaker 2: love of his life, and of course that's what That's

526
00:31:39,765 --> 00:31:42,205
Speaker 2: all I'd ever wanted. All I'd ever wanted was to

527
00:31:42,245 --> 00:31:46,285
Speaker 2: be loved by somebody, especially somebody who I saw as

528
00:31:46,445 --> 00:31:54,125
Speaker 2: really good looking, responsible, kind, generous. I always remember him saying,

529
00:31:54,125 --> 00:31:56,325
Speaker 2: I've got your back, and he would say that all

530
00:31:56,365 --> 00:31:59,365
Speaker 2: the time, and that and even he would put his

531
00:32:00,125 --> 00:32:03,005
Speaker 2: hand in the small of my back. So I always

532
00:32:03,005 --> 00:32:06,365
Speaker 2: felt very, very supportive. And I'd traveled before, and lived

533
00:32:06,365 --> 00:32:11,565
Speaker 2: overseas before, and worked overseas before, and for me, that

534
00:32:11,725 --> 00:32:15,045
Speaker 2: was always a high point of life, to be able

535
00:32:15,085 --> 00:32:18,445
Speaker 2: to travel and to live in a different culture and learn.

536
00:32:19,885 --> 00:32:22,565
Speaker 1: In Part two of my No Filter conversation with Susan,

537
00:32:22,765 --> 00:32:25,845
Speaker 1: we speak about the story of the unexpected love affair

538
00:32:25,885 --> 00:32:29,085
Speaker 1: that she began a few years ago later in her life,

539
00:32:29,205 --> 00:32:32,925
Speaker 1: after her first marriage ended, she was already a single mum,

540
00:32:33,605 --> 00:32:36,325
Speaker 1: and we also talk about the twist that made her

541
00:32:37,045 --> 00:32:42,165
Speaker 1: doubt everything about her identity all over again. It's an

542
00:32:42,205 --> 00:32:44,685
Speaker 1: amazing story. Keep an eye out in your feed. We'll

543
00:32:44,725 --> 00:32:48,085
Speaker 1: be dropping that episode later this week. Susan's book is

544
00:32:48,125 --> 00:32:50,285
Speaker 1: called The Love That Remains and you can find it

545
00:32:50,365 --> 00:32:53,645
Speaker 1: in any bookstore. And this is a bit of a tangent,

546
00:32:53,685 --> 00:32:56,165
Speaker 1: but please try to support your local bookstore wherever you

547
00:32:56,205 --> 00:32:58,685
Speaker 1: can if you like the experience of going into a

548
00:32:58,685 --> 00:33:02,245
Speaker 1: bookstore and browsing and looking at the things on the shelf.

549
00:33:03,005 --> 00:33:04,885
Speaker 1: The only way that bookstores are going to survive is

550
00:33:04,925 --> 00:33:07,925
Speaker 1: if we actually don't order everything online all the time

551
00:33:08,165 --> 00:33:10,765
Speaker 1: and sometimes go into books stores whenever we can and

552
00:33:10,845 --> 00:33:15,085
Speaker 1: support them. Small businesses like bookstores really need us to survive.

553
00:33:15,805 --> 00:33:18,645
Speaker 1: No Filter was produced by Melanie Tate and For moremma

554
00:33:18,725 --> 00:33:22,045
Speaker 1: Mea podcasts, we have dozens. You can go to mamamea

555
00:33:22,085 --> 00:33:26,125
Speaker 1: dot com dot au forward Slash podcasts if you're looking

556
00:33:26,125 --> 00:33:29,005
Speaker 1: for something else to listen to, like and follow all

557
00:33:29,045 --> 00:33:31,965
Speaker 1: of our Mamamea podcasts which are currently bringing you Hot

558
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Speaker 1: pod Summer one hundred hours of Summer listens from spicy

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Speaker 1: conversations to incredible stories, fashion beauty where the friends in

560
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Speaker 1: your ear is over Summer