Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1: Hello, I'm m Vernon and I'm Laura Brodnick. And you've
Speaker 1: probably clicked on this episode of the Spill because you
Speaker 1: have seen Apple Cider Vinegar on Netflix and that's really
Speaker 1: really good because there are some spoilers in this episode.
Speaker 1: So the show has completely taken over Australian screens and
Speaker 1: social media feeds. And it's a six part series that
Speaker 1: stars Caitlin Diav as Belle Gibson, who's so well known
Speaker 1: as the notorious wellness scammer in Australia. And the entire
Speaker 1: slogan of the show is the best one ever. It's
Speaker 1: a truest story based on a lie.
Speaker 2: So in this episode we get into all the shocking
Speaker 2: moments from the series, including what's real and what's not,
Speaker 2: and when we tell you the real story behind some
Speaker 2: of these scenes, honestly, you'll be shocked because it seems
Speaker 2: too intense to be real.
Speaker 1: And if you like this episode, we've actually done another
Speaker 1: episode on every thing That's happened and the massive fallout
Speaker 1: from Apple side of Vinegar since the show has come
Speaker 1: out from MoMA Mia. Welcome to the Spill your daily
Speaker 1: pop culture fix. I'm m Burnham and I'm Laura Brodnick,
Speaker 1: and today we have a very special episode. It's one
Speaker 1: of our brutally honest review episodes, one of my favorite
Speaker 1: of all time.
Speaker 2: So if you're not aware what a brutally honest review is,
Speaker 2: it is where we talk about the biggest TV show
Speaker 2: or movie of the moment, something that we know everyone
Speaker 2: is watching, but also something that has captured the conversation
Speaker 2: across the world. And Apple Side of Vinegar has very
Speaker 2: much done that. Just a little warning that we are
Speaker 2: going to be talking through all six episodes. We're going
Speaker 2: to be talking about things that happened behind the scenes,
Speaker 2: the true stories that inspired the biggest moments, why the
Speaker 2: ending should happen. So if you don't want spoilers, go
Speaker 2: and finish watching it and come back and listen. But
Speaker 2: I think from what we've been seeing from our audience,
Speaker 2: every single person has already devoured this series, so we
Speaker 2: should be good.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's our national ride. It's like the story,
Speaker 1: it's the story of the nation.
Speaker 2: Well, it debuted at number five worldwide, in Netflix number
Speaker 2: one in Australia, so we were primed and ready. So
Speaker 2: Apple Side of Viningar obviously the story of Belle Gibson,
Speaker 2: the controverversial wellness in NASA.
Speaker 1: Mel Gibson, because every single person I recommended this show
Speaker 1: too has been like, oh, I didn't know that he
Speaker 1: had like a show about him?
Speaker 2: Wait, who said that?
Speaker 1: Every single person I've been recommending this show.
Speaker 2: Too before they knew what the show was about.
Speaker 1: I was like, have you watch Apple Side of Vinan
Speaker 1: that I've watched about And I'm like, it's about Bell
Speaker 1: Gibson And they're like, they think they hear mel Gibson.
Speaker 2: Okay, well that's interesting.
Speaker 1: So it's not about mel Gibson the actor, it's about
Speaker 1: Bell Gibson the liar.
Speaker 2: Yes. So the Netflix series is inspired by the book
Speaker 2: The Woman Who Fooled the World, which was written by
Speaker 2: journalists Bo Donnelly and Nick Toscano. Obviously there are fictionalized
Speaker 2: versions of them in the show. They are the two
Speaker 2: journalists that originally broke the whole story around Belle Gibson
Speaker 2: lying about being diagnosed with cancer, and they did that
Speaker 2: by exposing the fact that she had lied about where
Speaker 2: she was distributing the charity funds, which was nowhere, it
Speaker 2: turns out, to herself. So the first reporting they did
Speaker 2: was in twenty fifteen, and then they published a book
Speaker 2: that had all their research in it two years later.
Speaker 2: But it was also a bigger look at the wellness
Speaker 2: industry and how Belle had used people's interest in the
Speaker 2: wellness industry and how there were no regulations around it
Speaker 2: to trick people, and the creators of the Netflix show
Speaker 2: optioned the book, and then Netflix screenlit the series in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, so now it's finally on our screens.
Speaker 1: When I first heard of Belle Gibson, like, I didn't
Speaker 1: realize how big a deal this was until I watched
Speaker 1: the sixty minutes interview.
Speaker 2: Did you watch it live when it happened?
Speaker 1: You mean, yeah, yeah, I watched it live because it was, like,
Speaker 1: I feel like, the most hyped up interview ever and
Speaker 1: it went so viral, And I just remember so specifically
Speaker 1: her in her like turtleneck pink sweater and just looking
Speaker 1: so she looked just like very angry but also confused,
Speaker 1: and she just never like straight away from her words.
Speaker 1: She never said that she was lying. She just thought
Speaker 1: that she honestly had cancer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so interesting. I definitely remember that interview going viral,
Speaker 2: and I think that's why that out of all the
Speaker 2: stories around Belle Gibson, when you see that sixty minutes
Speaker 2: interview in the show, that's the one piece they've created
Speaker 2: word for word, obviously because they have the audio and
Speaker 2: there's no disputing what happened in the audio, but because
Speaker 2: that's become her calling card across the world of people
Speaker 2: know that story. It's interesting. I kind of knew about
Speaker 2: Belle Gibson before it broke, not that I've ever been
Speaker 2: part of wellderness cultureor anything like that, but she was
Speaker 2: just being so hyped up by so many of the
Speaker 2: publications I followed at the time, and you've seen the
Speaker 2: series her going to like the Fun Fearless Awards and
Speaker 2: all those kind of things, and like, I just remember
Speaker 2: her being in magazines I opened and being on TV.
Speaker 2: Really yeah, yeah, she was a big dealer. There's so
Speaker 2: many clips circulating now. I was watching one with Sam
Speaker 2: Armitage the other day. Again, not that she would have
Speaker 2: known anything, like you just take it at face value,
Speaker 2: and she's doing the morning show circuit. Bell Gibson and
Speaker 2: she's just talking about her life in such a natural way.
Speaker 2: And like she's talking about her app, which has been
Speaker 2: translated into like five different languages, and it's just selling everywhere,
Speaker 2: and her book is on every newsstand, you can buy
Speaker 2: it a kmart, and like everyone's just fawning over her,
Speaker 2: And why wouldn't you because she seems so natural. Like
Speaker 2: I mean again, the book publishers probably should have checked
Speaker 2: and the app developers should have checked about it. You
Speaker 2: wouldn't expect the morning show hosts to check anyway. Getting
Speaker 2: past the story of Bell Gibson because that could be
Speaker 2: a whole other podcast. Actually, we do have a whole
Speaker 2: other podcast or extraordinary stories all about Bell Gibson and
Speaker 2: her life and her fall from grace, which will link
Speaker 2: in the show notes. But let's get into the casting,
Speaker 2: because I think the casting of Bell Gibson was always
Speaker 2: going to be such a make or break and I
Speaker 2: think people were initially a little skeptical, the people who
Speaker 2: knew they were watching Bell Gibson's story, not Mel Gibson's story.
Speaker 2: Those people were a bit skeptical over American actress Kate
Speaker 2: Lindva being cast as Bell.
Speaker 1: Initially, Yeah, I was skeptical as well, because she is American,
Speaker 1: and I thought because most of the cast are a
Speaker 1: stre so I thought they would have the main person
Speaker 1: Bell be Australian. But she did it so well. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, I was like one hundred percent believable. Even
Speaker 1: like her mannerisms if you watch the comparison between the
Speaker 1: real sixty Minutes interview and like the one that was
Speaker 1: fictionalized on TV, her little like quirks and the way
Speaker 1: she raised her eyebrows and even the way she like
Speaker 1: blinks sometimes is exactly like Belle Gibson. I don't know
Speaker 1: how she did it, but she absolutely nailed it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she did nail it. I think also having like
Speaker 2: a big name but not so big enough a name,
Speaker 2: that the casting of her overshadowed this series because I
Speaker 2: think some people like we have obviously been long term
Speaker 2: fans of Caitlin Diver because of book, Smart and unbelievable
Speaker 2: and just like a lot of other different work that
Speaker 2: she's done, but I think like a lot of people
Speaker 2: might have been coming to her for the first time
Speaker 2: in this so she was kind of believable as Belle.
Speaker 2: Interestingly enough that the two other actresses are both Australian actresses,
Speaker 2: but have found fame pretty much only playing until recently
Speaker 2: American characters. I guess it's like if they can do it.
Speaker 2: So Alicia didn't Ha plays Miller Blake. So a lot
Speaker 2: of people would know Alisha from The hundred and one
Speaker 2: of the best shows ever and Fear the Walking Dead,
Speaker 2: but reason one of your favorite shows ever? No, no, no,
Speaker 2: I'm a Walking Dead fan, not Fear the Walking Dead.
Speaker 2: That's a different fandom. But she was on that show
Speaker 2: for a very long time, and they're two big American franchises.
Speaker 2: And then recently she was on The Lost Flowers of
Speaker 2: Alice Hart, so she's doing a bit more Australian work.
Speaker 2: And then Asha d very famously was an actress who
Speaker 2: couldn't get a lot of work in Australia, and she's
Speaker 2: talked about the fact that being a woman of color
Speaker 2: initially shut her out of a lot of those kind
Speaker 2: of soap operas or like kids shows. So she went
Speaker 2: overseas and found huge fame on a great show I
Speaker 2: would say the bold type. Yes as Cat and then
Speaker 2: as returned to Australian has been starring and lots of
Speaker 2: interesting things.
Speaker 1: She's got a very interesting accent. It's like a hybrid
Speaker 1: version of American Australian and she kind of kept it
Speaker 1: throughout the movie, like she didn't go a hardcore Australian accent,
Speaker 1: and I thought that was quite interesting, Like no one
Speaker 1: addressed that.
Speaker 2: The four kind of main females I thought were all
Speaker 2: incredibly cast. Five, I guess if you're really counting in
Speaker 2: Susie Porter as Tamara Miller's mother. And I think Susie
Speaker 2: Porter's always.
Speaker 1: Been Oh my god, she was so good.
Speaker 2: I've just she's one of those astrain actresses who's just
Speaker 2: in everything but is not like an international name, but
Speaker 2: has this huge body of work. And she was incredible.
Speaker 2: And then Tilda crobham Hervey as Lucy I thought was amazing.
Speaker 2: She played Helen Ready in the movie about her life.
Speaker 2: And do you hate her because she's dev Pateel's partner, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: But because of her, like dev Ptel has been spending
Speaker 1: a lot of time in Adelaide and Adelaide together.
Speaker 2: That's either here nor there.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind seeing bumping into him at like a
Speaker 1: farmer's market or something.
Speaker 2: Well, you might do, but he'll have Tilda with him
Speaker 2: and she's lovely.
Speaker 1: Thanks Tilda for bringing him.
Speaker 2: I'd lied to welcome on the stage.
Speaker 1: Shelle Gibson. It must have affected her that my book
Speaker 1: was reviewed as better than hers. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: Who's her Miller? She was diagnosed with cancer, so she's
Speaker 2: consistently maintained. I have no reason to doubt her because
Speaker 2: in her case it's true. It's funny my doctor said
Speaker 2: you have brain cancer. He's a bloggie my life. She's
Speaker 2: just like you. We do look incredibly well.
Speaker 1: I've never felt better.
Speaker 2: I have to find the right way for me. I
Speaker 2: just got each other. Loved the session for all body goosebumps.
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming Bell Bell Gibson the brain cancer right,
Speaker 2: So we should probably talk about the character of Milla Blake,
Speaker 2: who's also really set up to be the lead alongside
Speaker 2: Belle Gibson. The creators of the show have said that
Speaker 2: this was never meant to be like the rise and
Speaker 2: fall of Bell Gibson. She was only meant to be
Speaker 2: one part of it, and that's why it's called Apple
Speaker 2: side of Vinegar. It's not named after her because they
Speaker 2: wanted to show it as like how wellness influencers used
Speaker 2: Instagram at the time but obviously because she is the
Speaker 2: big name, we really have like hooked onto that. What
Speaker 2: did you think about the disclaimers at the beginning of
Speaker 2: each episode where they break the fourth wall, So like
Speaker 2: the first time we see Caitlyn Diva do it where
Speaker 2: she looks to the camera and said, some names have
Speaker 2: been changed to protect the innocent. Belle Gibson has not
Speaker 2: been paid for the recreation of her story.
Speaker 1: Is there a reason why, like they do it for
Speaker 1: every single episode, Like, is there like some contract or
Speaker 1: legalities behind that? Because I was like, I liked it
Speaker 1: for the first episode, especially because it was Caitlyn Diva
Speaker 1: and she's still being bell where she says Belle Gibson
Speaker 1: was not compensated for that, and she's like, of course
Speaker 1: she was fucking wasn't that? Yeah, fuckers? But after like
Speaker 1: the first one, I was like, I don't need to
Speaker 1: hear this again.
Speaker 2: No, there's a reason they Actually there's two reasons why
Speaker 2: they did it for every single episode. One is that
Speaker 2: the creator and writer of Apple Side of Vinegar, Samantha Strauss,
Speaker 2: thought it was just really important to include from a
Speaker 2: moral standpoint, So she said she'd optioned the book and
Speaker 2: she was going into production and she was writing the
Speaker 2: script and she was talking to a friend whose partner
Speaker 2: has brain cancer, and she said they were absolutely horrified,
Speaker 2: Like Samantha, his friends said, horrify that she was doing
Speaker 2: this show. And they had said, why would you give
Speaker 2: this woman more oxygen? Don't you know what she's done,
Speaker 2: don't you know what she's still doing? And is she
Speaker 2: being paid from it? And that was the question that
Speaker 2: Samantha found every time she talked to people about the show,
Speaker 2: is that they all just assumed that Belle Gibson was
Speaker 2: in some way involved or assumed that she had to
Speaker 2: be paid for it in some way. And for so
Speaker 2: many people, especially people who had donated to her causes
Speaker 2: as we see in the show, and then like the
Speaker 2: money never went to those people, People who had bought
Speaker 2: her books and apps and you know, lost money and
Speaker 2: they could have been spending on other things, or people
Speaker 2: who followed her for years and felt tricked, or.
Speaker 1: People who could have just died from like following like.
Speaker 2: Her by her saying I kid my cancer and using
Speaker 2: this happy, beautiful woman and you're like, yeah, I could
Speaker 2: have that. So people were really upset that they thought
Speaker 2: she was profiting off the Netflix show, So they thought
Speaker 2: they had to really hammer home in every single episode
Speaker 2: that she wasn't just so people knew that wasn't happening.
Speaker 2: But also the other big thing was the defamation part
Speaker 2: of it. Obviously it would be kind of hard to
Speaker 2: defame Bellgi.
Speaker 1: It's really confusing to me because, like they name her,
Speaker 1: they go through a lot of things like in detail
Speaker 1: of like everything that Belle Gibson has done, and I wonder,
Speaker 1: like how do they get away with doing that? Like
Speaker 1: how could they make themselves fit safe?
Speaker 2: Well, one thing with defamation is that the person who's
Speaker 2: claiming to have been defamed has to prove that a
Speaker 2: publication is lying about them in a way that has
Speaker 2: taken away their reputation. Obviously, there's a lot more legal lays.
Speaker 2: This is just a very top white explanation.
Speaker 1: Do they get away with it because she doesn't have
Speaker 1: a reputation?
Speaker 2: No? No, she can't prove she has cancer, and she
Speaker 2: can't prove that she gave the money to charity, and
Speaker 2: she can't all those things. She can't prove. The other thing, though,
Speaker 2: is that they keep saying this is a true ish
Speaker 2: story based on a lie, and what we've seen recently
Speaker 2: with a few shows, like namely Baby Reindeer is that
Speaker 2: they say this is based on a true story, which
Speaker 2: is why the woman who Baby Reindeer is about has
Speaker 2: now been given the green light to go ahead with
Speaker 2: a hundreds seventy million dollar defamation suit against Netflix because
Speaker 2: they said this is a true story rather than saying
Speaker 2: this is based on a true story. So every time
Speaker 2: the characters in the Netflix show say this is a
Speaker 2: true ish story based on a lie, names have been changed,
Speaker 2: they're immediately deflecting a lot of the defamation because they're
Speaker 2: not claiming it's real. Like and also a lot of
Speaker 2: people like, we're going to go through the characters now
Speaker 2: and say who's real and who's not. The creators of
Speaker 2: the show haven't actually come out except for saying that
Speaker 2: Bell Gibson is based on Bell Gibson. They haven't actually
Speaker 2: come out and said a lot of these people are
Speaker 2: based on the people who we have just been able
Speaker 2: to piece that together because of defamation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was one character, Miller Blake in particular, who
Speaker 1: I remember we wrote about an influencer years ago named
Speaker 1: jess Ainsko, and I was like, this is exactly the
Speaker 1: same person, Like it's exactly Jess, And that confused me
Speaker 1: because Jess was, like, I guess Belle's competitor in this
Speaker 1: like wellness space of curing cancer through natural remedies rather
Speaker 1: than like the clinical side of things. And she tragically
Speaker 1: passed away from her cancer and she had the same
Speaker 1: like Miller in the show had the exact same type
Speaker 1: of cancer as Jes did. Jess's mother passed away from
Speaker 1: going through Jess's like alternative medicine root, and then Miller's
Speaker 1: mom passed away. So I was like, this is spot on,
Speaker 1: but why would they change the name?
Speaker 2: Well, that's the interesting thing with Jessica ames Co is
Speaker 2: that the show has said that she's just one of
Speaker 2: the influences that the character of Milla Blake is based on.
Speaker 2: But when you look like you're saying, when you look
Speaker 2: at the comparison, like, no, it was her, it seems
Speaker 2: almost pretty much based on her. So in the show
Speaker 2: we see her working in the girlfriend office, but in
Speaker 2: real life she did work at Dolly. When being diagnosed
Speaker 2: with a very rare cancer that does start in the arm,
Speaker 2: she said yes to chemotherapy originally as Miller does on
Speaker 2: the show, and then they have renamed the type of
Speaker 2: alternative health medicine in the show from what she went
Speaker 2: through in real life. But it was basically almost exactly
Speaker 2: the same thing of the idea of like no toxins,
Speaker 2: no alcohol, no sugar, coffee enemas. And that was how
Speaker 2: Jess ains Coe became very famous, Like she was almost
Speaker 2: became an influencer before influencers were really a thing, because
Speaker 2: she was there at the birth of Instagram, but also
Speaker 2: she started before Instagrayah, like she moved her blog is
Speaker 2: where she gained so much traction, and then she was
Speaker 2: able to parlay that fame as Belle did, into books,
Speaker 2: into speaking to us, into winning awards. Alicia dem Nakara,
Speaker 2: who plays her, said that she's meant to be an
Speaker 2: amalgamation of different influencers, which we can obviously see.
Speaker 1: That ninety percent of one particular influence.
Speaker 2: That it's hard because a lot of Jess's blogs that
Speaker 2: she wrote at the time have been marked a private
Speaker 2: and the videos that she made, but a lot of
Speaker 2: the work that she did is still around so you
Speaker 2: can go and read it. And the way she talks
Speaker 2: and her turn of phrase and everything is very similar
Speaker 2: to the character. So they've really embedded that and as
Speaker 2: you're saying the same thing with her like personal life,
Speaker 2: like she was very much in love and married her
Speaker 2: husband Talan, you know, before she passed away, and her mother,
Speaker 2: who she was very close with, after she was diagnosed
Speaker 2: with breast cancer, followed her daughter's health advice and that's
Speaker 2: why she died. And one of Jessica's last blog posts,
Speaker 2: which is horrific, as talking about how her body had
Speaker 2: just deteriorated and saying that she didn't know how to
Speaker 2: live in a world without her mother, which is kind
Speaker 2: of like a you know, a story that we see
Speaker 2: mirroat in the show, but they.
Speaker 1: Also make her quite unlikable.
Speaker 2: Did you think so? Yes?
Speaker 1: I hated her character, did you yeah? Interestingly I kind
Speaker 1: of hated her more than Bell.
Speaker 2: It's interesting at different parts of the show, I really
Speaker 2: dislike these women, and then sometimes I just felt so
Speaker 2: much empathy for them, even Belle Gibson. Like so many
Speaker 2: people who were going into the show, because obviously we
Speaker 2: got to watch it a bit early, so many people
Speaker 2: going into the show said to me like, oh, I
Speaker 2: hate Belle Gibson. I can't wait to watch this, And
Speaker 2: I had to say to them like it's not this
Speaker 2: big take down of her that you think it's going
Speaker 2: to be, Like she's humanized in a really interesting way,
Speaker 2: is that, especially in the first episode where you see
Speaker 2: her just this like lonely lost young woman who is
Speaker 2: pregnant and has no support and has obviously come from
Speaker 2: a terrible home excusing what she did. But I think
Speaker 2: it's also interesting to sort of see that, like a
Speaker 2: lot of people who do terrible things in life, like
Speaker 2: they don't just appear out of thin air and act
Speaker 2: that way, Like there's a lot of lead up that
Speaker 2: goes there. Yeah, And I thought they did a really
Speaker 2: good job of humanizing her. So by the time she
Speaker 2: starts like lying about having cancer, I like totally understood
Speaker 2: why she did that. Those graphics on the screen where
Speaker 2: they have all the light and the red and the
Speaker 2: gold colors that come out of her phone and like
Speaker 2: envelop her in love when she reaches out for help online,
Speaker 2: I thought was like a really accurate representation of the
Speaker 2: dopamine hit you get when you get love.
Speaker 1: From social addictive. Like if you've ever had like a
Speaker 1: piece of social media be validated by a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of strangers, it's like you run on that high for
Speaker 1: so long and you just constantly need the another post
Speaker 1: to go as viral.
Speaker 2: And what part about Miller didn't you like just that
Speaker 2: she wasn't saying yes to the cancer treatment or was
Speaker 2: she kind of evolved as an influencer.
Speaker 1: I think it was when she brought her mom into
Speaker 1: it that like absolutely destroyed me, especially the scene with
Speaker 1: her dad saying to her mom, she's killing you. She's
Speaker 1: going to kill you and she's like, no, I'm not.
Speaker 1: It's so like hard and then like her mom And
Speaker 1: this is why Susie Port I thought was brilliant in
Speaker 1: this role when she said what kind of mother would
Speaker 1: I be if I don't do this?
Speaker 2: I know?
Speaker 1: And like because she let her daughter do it so
Speaker 1: and I'm like, that's so true, Like it's all so true,
Speaker 1: Like it felt so real and it was just she's real.
Speaker 1: The whole scene of her speaking about it just felt
Speaker 1: so real and it was just so tragic and you
Speaker 1: just knew what was going to happen and you were
Speaker 1: just so scared that it wasn't going to happen, and
Speaker 1: it does happen. It was just really sad, and that
Speaker 1: just pissed me off about her like when my mom died,
Speaker 1: I was like, I hate you.
Speaker 2: I know the visceral anger I felt through watching this show.
Speaker 2: It's quite surprised.
Speaker 1: I felt like we all toed on her on Collogist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like he was just so ancrying when he was like,
Speaker 2: just to be clear, you will die and died. Oh no,
Speaker 2: don't do it. But doctors have to sometimes use that
Speaker 2: language so that there's no gray area. It's like when
Speaker 2: a doctor comes out to tell you that a loved
Speaker 2: one has died, they have to say they have died.
Speaker 2: They can't say passed away, they can't say anything like
Speaker 2: that because they've been taught to like use this language
Speaker 2: that it sounds harsh, but it's no gray area. There's
Speaker 2: no brain from misinterpretation of what that means. The idea
Speaker 2: of her mother, Like, it was hard for me to
Speaker 2: hate her as a character for that, even though I
Speaker 2: was really angry watching it, because it's like she was
Speaker 2: so close to her mother and loved her so much,
Speaker 2: and the only reason that she wanted her to go
Speaker 2: through that same healthcare situation that she had gone through,
Speaker 2: that take that same wellness journey was that because at
Speaker 2: that point in her life, she one hundred percent believed
Speaker 2: that he had cured her. Yeah, and that's why she
Speaker 2: was so hesitant, Like when they're in the hospital, that
Speaker 2: scene where she's saying to the doctor, just so you know,
Speaker 2: our family has a really bad history, and the family
Speaker 2: doesn't have a bad history with doctors. It's just that
Speaker 2: at that point in time, because she hasn't had any
Speaker 2: scans to show that her cancer is growing until later on,
Speaker 2: she thinks she's saving her mother's life, and she's willing
Speaker 2: to like make enemies. She's willing to have her father
Speaker 2: be angry at her. She's willing to use up all
Speaker 2: their money because she thinks she's saving her mother's life,
Speaker 2: which makes it so much more tragic.
Speaker 1: And I was thinking like, and it's so easy for
Speaker 1: me to say, as someone who's like perfectly healthy Touchwood,
Speaker 1: is that imagine what it could have been if she
Speaker 1: had just done the surgery.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But then I'm also like, you can't ask a twenty
Speaker 1: two year old woman to get rid of her arm.
Speaker 2: Essentially, It's interesting because after Jessica aans Co died and
Speaker 2: there was a big public memorial for her that a
Speaker 2: lot of people went to her father and husband put
Speaker 2: out a release, and you know, a lot of it
Speaker 2: was like thanking people for their support and talking about
Speaker 2: what Jessica had meant for people. But they also included
Speaker 2: a statement where they said, it has been reported that
Speaker 2: a Jessica had received a certain type of medical care
Speaker 2: and paraphrasing here that she would have lived and that
Speaker 2: is incorrect. So whether or not that's incorrect or not,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I wasn't involved in her medical treatment,
Speaker 2: but I just thought it was quite interesting that even
Speaker 2: like at the end of her life, after all that
Speaker 2: had happened, they were still wanting to put out this
Speaker 2: thing saying like, don't judge her for what she did,
Speaker 2: because she didn't do the wrong thing, like that kind
Speaker 2: of protectiveness on her. I want to build something meaningful,
Speaker 2: the love.
Speaker 1: I've recently been diagnosed with a third of cancer.
Speaker 2: It has ninety thousand blikes.
Speaker 1: She does not have this blame cancer.
Speaker 2: Always know what you're putting a body.
Speaker 1: Bell, It's a simple question, do you have cancer? I
Speaker 1: want to destroy her.
Speaker 2: Something I thought was interesting is how they fictionalize this
Speaker 2: kind of rivalry between Miller and Bell, which I guess
Speaker 2: you did need to push the show along because in
Speaker 2: real life, Bell and Jessica did cross paths, but it
Speaker 2: was different to the show.
Speaker 1: I read that Belle like also like attended her funeral.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, no, that funeral seems so that out
Speaker 2: of everything in the show.
Speaker 1: I was like, surely this part.
Speaker 2: Of the that part is so real. So I know,
Speaker 2: I like, we have to how did she do? I know?
Speaker 2: I put that story up on side because I was like,
Speaker 2: the people need to know about this. So Belle and
Speaker 2: Jessica first met at a conference they didn't know each other,
Speaker 2: and Jessica's manager later on, this is all coming from
Speaker 2: the book.
Speaker 1: It's Jessica's manager, the one who Chanelle is.
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, this is a different job. Oh, Shanell
Speaker 2: is a real person.
Speaker 1: Yes, we'll get to okay.
Speaker 2: All these stories of what was true and what's not
Speaker 2: are coming from the original book this series is based
Speaker 2: on because they interviewed a lot of people involved in
Speaker 2: the situation and they said that Jessica and Bell met
Speaker 2: for the first time at a conference where Belle came
Speaker 2: up and introduced herself to Jessica, and Jessica later told
Speaker 2: her manager and her manager as the one being interviewed
Speaker 2: that she was very wary of her and felt a
Speaker 2: little uneasy. But they did continue to have this Instagram
Speaker 2: relationship after this, where they would leave comments on each
Speaker 2: other's posts, you know, celebrating each other, love hearts, all
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. And then when she died, she
Speaker 2: did attend her funeral, and it's written in the book
Speaker 2: that her family and friends were like, one, how did
Speaker 2: you know what was happening here? How did you know
Speaker 2: where the house was? They don't know how she showed
Speaker 2: up and how she's sobbing in the church when I
Speaker 2: was watching that, because I went and looked up a
Speaker 2: lot of these things later, I thought, surely this is
Speaker 2: the fictional life. Pot Surely the real Bell Gibson did
Speaker 2: not walk into that young woman's funeral and sob and
Speaker 2: make it about her. But she did, and her friends
Speaker 2: and family later said when they were interviewed that it
Speaker 2: looked like she was trying to show that her grief
Speaker 2: was more than everyone else, and that she was trying
Speaker 2: to steal the spotlight. And it's also alleged that the
Speaker 2: wake afterwards, again, how did she go? She went, and
Speaker 2: she went into the bedroom like she does in the
Speaker 2: show and tried to sob and like comfort her fiance
Speaker 2: or her husband, her husband in real life and.
Speaker 1: It away so good where he was like, you gave
Speaker 1: her the creep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she've had a full freak out and he was like,
Speaker 2: get away from me. It's like obviously. But I also
Speaker 2: think that that was kind of interesting that they took
Speaker 2: this little nugget of what had happened in real life.
Speaker 2: Is that Belle really seemed to idolize Jessica, or maybe
Speaker 2: she didn't nihlize her, Maybe she just wanted she saw
Speaker 2: this outpouring of like genuine love and affection that her
Speaker 2: family and friends and followers had for her because she
Speaker 2: was sick and she wanted to bask in that. And
Speaker 2: they were both two beautiful, blonde, attractive women who had
Speaker 2: made a career of these wellness platforms. But I thought
Speaker 2: in the show was interesting how they kind of dial
Speaker 2: that up so intensely, And I think you kind of
Speaker 2: needed that to kind of push the story along and
Speaker 2: show like just because everything is all light and fluffy
Speaker 2: and we're best friends online, it's so much more brutal
Speaker 2: behind the scenes.
Speaker 1: My favorite character in the whole show was I should
Speaker 1: yeah now, oh my god. I thought she was like perfect.
Speaker 1: I loved how she was acting as like the audience,
Speaker 1: I guess the answer for the audience. Whenever we had questions,
Speaker 1: she was like that person would answer it because they
Speaker 1: used her in the different time slots right like right
Speaker 1: from the beginning to present day where she's talking to
Speaker 1: the journalist to like where she got swept away with
Speaker 1: all of Belle's lies, but also being best friends with Miller.
Speaker 1: And I think that she was a character that was
Speaker 1: just kind of so angry that she also fell for it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then she I felt like she had so much
Speaker 1: weight on a chest for feeling guilty of Like I
Speaker 1: felt like she felt guilty for her friend's death because
Speaker 1: she just like left her to kind of fend for
Speaker 1: herself with her juices and went on to support Belle,
Speaker 1: who was at that time the more successful influencer. And
Speaker 1: I think her portrayal of herself was so well and
Speaker 1: how she navigated those friendships, because that would suck, Like
Speaker 1: imagine being like one of the women who was like
Speaker 1: perfectly healthy, who didn't actually have to like rely on
Speaker 1: your life to believe these kind of things, and yet
Speaker 1: you still fall for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, that's a really crazy kind of event.
Speaker 2: So she now Bill Gibson's best friend. Like, that's true.
Speaker 2: The fictionalized part is her relationship with the Miller character.
Speaker 1: Oh okay.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting that Belle and Chanell are the two
Speaker 2: that have kept the names from the real life characters.
Speaker 2: But I think why they've done that is that Bell Gibson,
Speaker 2: everything she's done is on the record. And then Chanelle
Speaker 2: was the main whistleblower who worked with the journalists and
Speaker 2: who let everyone know what was happening. So you can
Speaker 2: use her name in the show because she's on recorders
Speaker 2: as doing this. So she first met Bell Gibson after
Speaker 2: being signed her as an interviewee during our writing internship,
Speaker 2: and they became really close and she worked a lot
Speaker 2: with her. And then when she found out that Bell
Speaker 2: Gibson was lying about her cancer and misleading people, that
Speaker 2: scene where she gives her the opportunity like tell the truth,
Speaker 2: like and tell me right now, and she doesn't happened
Speaker 2: in real life. And when Belle continued to lie to her,
Speaker 2: she made it the crying yeahhh. She made it her
Speaker 2: mission to expose her lies. And it was really her
Speaker 2: testimonial that really made it possible for those initial investigative
Speaker 2: reports to go forward. The other thing that was true
Speaker 2: is that Bell Gibson really did fake that seizure at
Speaker 2: her son's birthday party. Was that true? That's true as well,
Speaker 2: in front of her son, in front of her son
Speaker 2: and everyone for like an extended period of time. And
Speaker 2: that's another reason why a few people were just like
Speaker 2: seeing it in real life. That's when it started to
Speaker 2: kind of put off some warning.
Speaker 1: Bells, Oh my god.
Speaker 2: The stuff with her son I found absolutely brutal to watch.
Speaker 2: I've got to say, I can't stand when kids are involved.
Speaker 2: And that scene where he's looked in his room, which
Speaker 2: is not a proven thing, is like key fictionalized. It
Speaker 2: was just trying to show what happens when a parent
Speaker 2: is and he was sick and stuff, and she takes
Speaker 2: him too an alternative therapist who does the light and
Speaker 2: sound machine, which is what Bell Gibson said, diagnose to cancer.
Speaker 2: When she was found out.
Speaker 1: Oh my, the light and sound machines absolutely sent me
Speaker 1: the ten thousand dollar light in sound machine. What was
Speaker 1: so sad for me and absolutely heartbreaking. Was one of
Speaker 1: the final scenes of the series when she was with
Speaker 1: her son and you just see how much kids pick
Speaker 1: up and how much kids learn, and the generational trauma
Speaker 1: in her family because I'm her mom wasn't a saint either,
Speaker 1: like she had like a very troubled childhood. And her
Speaker 1: mom has publicly spoken about Bell Gibson, like the real
Speaker 1: Bell Gibson, some one has publicly spoken about her and
Speaker 1: how she doesn't agree with anything she did. And that
Speaker 1: scene with her son, how he had like his bandaged
Speaker 1: arm and then he said he broke his hand like
Speaker 1: while he was sleeping. Yeah, and then straight away she
Speaker 1: was like, no, we can't like let this continue, like
Speaker 1: we can't let this craziness that I've been going through
Speaker 1: continue with like your generation and the generation after. But
Speaker 1: that was so sad because I feel like in those moments,
Speaker 1: because he was so young, she probably would have passed on,
Speaker 1: like the seizure at his birthday party. She'd been like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's too young to remember that. He won't remember that,
Speaker 1: and my kids remember everything.
Speaker 2: They pick up everything, which is yeah, just another really
Speaker 2: sobering part of the story. Also, her husband so hot Clive, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: that he was again interesting character again based on a
Speaker 2: real person. Again, his name really was Clive. It's hard
Speaker 2: to sort of tell if they're still together, because it's
Speaker 2: very hard to find any information on Bell Gibson. Now,
Speaker 2: we do know that she never went to prison at
Speaker 2: the time of recording, she hasn't paid back.
Speaker 1: That's the while that she's never gone to prison, I.
Speaker 2: Know, there's so many different like legalities there that make
Speaker 2: that hard. She did join an Ethiopian community, I do
Speaker 2: believe at one stage, and was seen wearing their traditional
Speaker 2: dress and everything, but when the community was asked for
Speaker 2: a statement, they said she wasn't officially part of them.
Speaker 2: I think she's been photographed a few times allegedly she
Speaker 2: has another child. Now it's so hard to say because
Speaker 2: she's not. And also every single news outlet in the
Speaker 2: world right now is trying to find her and contact her,
Speaker 2: and no one's managed to speak to her. But she
Speaker 2: did stay with Clive for a long time after this
Speaker 2: all blew up, and I think seeing his story is
Speaker 2: interesting too, because again I think the show humanizes people
Speaker 2: in such a way that by the time he decides
Speaker 2: to stay with her, like you almost do understand it, yeah,
Speaker 2: which is really annoying, But obviously he's doing it for
Speaker 2: the sun and for the family unit. He has and
Speaker 2: he just feels that he'll go back into the world
Speaker 2: alone and even if the life he has with Bell
Speaker 2: isn't real, it's better than the reality he faces without her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so sad. But like they're still living in
Speaker 1: like the mans, Like right at the end, you just
Speaker 1: you still see them living in that match house and
Speaker 1: the mansion, and you hear that sixty minutes is like
Speaker 1: paying her seventy five grand, but that even though that
Speaker 1: poor boy who actually had brain cancer needed sixty.
Speaker 2: It's a real story as well.
Speaker 1: You better give him that money, birl, But.
Speaker 2: She never did. That's another story that's pulled from Obviously,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of families that were in that situation,
Speaker 2: but it's not a real story. Yeah, there's one family
Speaker 2: in particular who were working closely with her at the time.
Speaker 1: Because I remember them from part of the interview.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So they were part of the interview and
Speaker 2: that's chronicled in the book that the show is based
Speaker 2: on as well. And basically after it happened, mums like,
Speaker 2: I'm absolutely blindsided. I thought this woman was helping me,
Speaker 2: she was raising this money for my son who was
Speaker 2: cancer and then none of the money showed up, and
Speaker 2: I think like maybe nowadays, like people would get up
Speaker 2: a gofund me and get that money back to that person.
Speaker 2: But I think at the time and maybe that did
Speaker 2: happen to an extent, But I also think at the
Speaker 2: time people were just so shocked and angry and didn't
Speaker 2: know what to believe, that it was hard to sort
Speaker 2: of recoup that money from people who had already done donated. Yeah,
Speaker 2: getting onto another really sad point in the show, which
Speaker 2: I know there's so many, there's so many to choose from.
Speaker 2: I mean, you hated hers, maybe you didn't care, But
Speaker 2: I thought Miller's death was done in a really interesting way.
Speaker 2: I also thought her character was built in an interesting
Speaker 2: way that she's such a product of her time, of
Speaker 2: that early two thousands when the show takes place where
Speaker 2: she like loves Cleo, like she's a mad girl. Like
Speaker 2: the clothes she's wearing are all of very of that hair. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she's very obsessed with Sweet Valley High and one of
Speaker 2: the main characters. I was like, that is a perfect
Speaker 2: like amalgamation.
Speaker 1: They're like sitting on the laptop on the rock at
Speaker 1: the beach was so tumble coded, but.
Speaker 2: He was so obsessed exactly. But when you see her
Speaker 2: in that moment, I mean, when she tells her dad
Speaker 2: and unwraps her arm, I mean, that's the most one
Speaker 2: of the most brutal TV scenes I've ever seen, because
Speaker 2: you think that he's going to be angry at her,
Speaker 2: but then he's just obviously devastated. And I thought her
Speaker 2: last blog post, which I was trying to find Jessaine
Speaker 2: Coe's last blog post, and that it's all been taken down.
Speaker 2: So but I do believe that she never wrote the words.
Speaker 2: You know, if I could return to traditional medicine now,
Speaker 2: I would. But again, I think that's part of the
Speaker 2: fictionalized journey of Miller, of her coming out and saying like,
Speaker 2: my final act is just to say I should have
Speaker 2: done this, but this is where I am now. And
Speaker 2: I think it's also like a really powerful moment where
Speaker 2: she closes the laptop because you see all those messages
Speaker 2: flashing up and people are being like, no, I've got
Speaker 2: a cure, I know a healer, I know these. A
Speaker 2: few years ago in her life, she would have jumped
Speaker 2: on all those messages, but she just closes the laptop
Speaker 2: and sits in peace, and we don't actually see her
Speaker 2: pass away, but that idea of watching her close the
Speaker 2: laptop is her death scene in a way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think how like people perceived both Bell
Speaker 1: and Jess at the time is evident through Lucy, her
Speaker 1: character who actually has breast cancer and you see her
Speaker 1: go on this journey of believing Belle and believing like
Speaker 1: ultimate medicine to like kind of doing her own thing
Speaker 1: and having like these big fights with the people who
Speaker 1: love her who want her to just get better and
Speaker 1: go the traditional medicine route, and then she just had
Speaker 1: to go on that journey by herself where she did
Speaker 1: like try it for a little bit and then she
Speaker 1: was like, actually no, I want to go back into
Speaker 1: chemo and like do it properly. And I think that
Speaker 1: kind of was like a bit gave me a tiny
Speaker 1: bit of hope that like not everyone's life was destroyed
Speaker 1: by Belle Gibson. Yeah, like in who she Influenced.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so interesting because that closing montage of how
Speaker 2: the last episode ends has been like a little bit
Speaker 2: polarizing in a way because obviously you could just keep going,
Speaker 2: like obviously where she's found out is an endpoint, but
Speaker 2: the story continued to roll on. So I think from
Speaker 2: a creative perspective, it's interesting to know where to end
Speaker 2: it and not do like, you know, flash forward to
Speaker 2: where she is in twenty twenty five or something like that.
Speaker 2: But in the closing montage, you see like Belle like
Speaker 2: so happy in the sun. She's ex to this swimming
Speaker 2: pool and you see she's with Clive and her son.
Speaker 1: That really annoyed me.
Speaker 2: I know, well, it's meant to annoy you. It's meant to.
Speaker 1: Show like she just ruined everyone's life and now she here,
Speaker 1: she is in her mansion with her seventy five k
Speaker 1: in pocket, just like not even bothered that that interview
Speaker 1: is about to ruin like a reputation.
Speaker 2: That's so interesting because it's meant to annoy you. It's
Speaker 2: meant to make you angry. That's what the creators have said.
Speaker 2: It's meant to make you angry because, as they keep saying,
Speaker 2: the show is not really about Bell Gibson. It's about
Speaker 2: the wellness influence industry and how this is kind of
Speaker 2: this big red flag for how you know, a lot
Speaker 2: of times there's no regulations, you can't trust these people,
Speaker 2: but people looking for hope so much they'll honestly believe everything.
Speaker 2: And then you see Bell Gibson. We know obviously she
Speaker 2: went on to like you know, lose money and all
Speaker 2: this sort of stuff, but in that moment, you see
Speaker 2: her wealthy with her family, haffy, and also completely healthy.
Speaker 2: So she's in this wonderful safe space despite what she's done.
Speaker 2: And then you see how her actions have affected all
Speaker 2: the people around her and how they're worse off because
Speaker 2: they were trapped up in her lives. So you see
Speaker 2: Chanelle who has got justice in a way because she
Speaker 2: wanted to out Bell, but at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: she's still feeling very guilty about not being there for
Speaker 2: her best friend and the choices.
Speaker 1: Her best friend died, plus like the woman who like
Speaker 1: she spent in the house where it's like twenty.
Speaker 2: Four seven exactly, So she's mourning the death of these
Speaker 2: people and feeling like she'll never get that back. You
Speaker 2: see Lucy going back into more traditional cancer treat Remember,
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, she still has cancer,
Speaker 2: and they really leave you hanging on what happens to her.
Speaker 2: And then Miller flashes to her empty house and back
Speaker 2: to her funeral scene, and so you're just left with
Speaker 2: this this moment that her dad by himself. So every
Speaker 2: other story, I mean, the series is meant to be
Speaker 2: this big takedown of Bell Gibson. Also we thought going in,
Speaker 2: but what it really is is showing how at the
Speaker 2: end of the day she can come out a little
Speaker 2: bit on top and every single person around her has
Speaker 2: been touched by death or ill health or being let down.
Speaker 2: So ah, I guess it goes to show like I
Speaker 2: don't know, it's while that.
Speaker 1: It's like we talked about such sad themes throughout the show,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't a sad show. Yeah, Like it was
Speaker 1: quite fast paced and like upbeats because every time I
Speaker 1: recommended it to someone, after I told them, no, it's
Speaker 1: not mel Gibson Gibson, they were all like, oh, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, it's not like that, Like we're not
Speaker 1: a it's like a really sad story of like people
Speaker 1: who like, I mean, some parts are sad, but it's
Speaker 1: actually such a really good explainer. It reminded me of
Speaker 1: the ANNADELVI. Yeah, it reminded me of that kind of format,
Speaker 1: like very fast paced, like you don't really sit in
Speaker 1: your feelings for too long.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean my only critique at the start that
Speaker 2: there was sometimes too many storylines and too much happening,
Speaker 2: but I felt the end it probably needed that many
Speaker 2: characters and storylines to justify the overall message that they
Speaker 2: were trying to send. Also banging soundtrack with Toxic and Vampire,
Speaker 2: all shows that were like alluding to her behavior, playing
Speaker 2: as like remixes or like songs throughout the show. So yeah, overall,
Speaker 2: very incredible, And I think also the big conversation starter
Speaker 2: has come out of this is that so many people
Speaker 2: keep saying things like, well, thank god, that wouldn't happen now,
Speaker 2: And I just think, have you not been on TikTok
Speaker 2: oh girl? It was absolutely happened now. Like I think
Speaker 2: maybe a lot of traditional book publishers and places like that,
Speaker 2: just because they're so aware of the Bell Gibson story
Speaker 2: and other stories that have happened, might sac check a
Speaker 2: book more so now. But I think it's still very
Speaker 2: possible for someone to build a platform like this because
Speaker 2: people are still looking for hope in that same PJ.
Speaker 1: It's got to work over time for this one.
Speaker 2: Well, Apple Side of Vinegar. It's on Netflix if you
Speaker 2: haven't watched it, but if you come this far and
Speaker 2: you haven't watched it. That's come on, binge the whole thing.
Speaker 2: You can do it.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to the Spill today.
Speaker 1: If you want more from us, you can always find
Speaker 1: us on our Instagram at the Spill Podcast. We post
Speaker 1: a lot on there, give us a follow, and also
Speaker 1: jump into our dms if there's something that you want
Speaker 1: us to talk about. The Spill is produced by Kimberly
Speaker 1: British with sound production by Scott Stronik and we'll be
Speaker 1: back here in your podcast feed at three pm on Monday.
Speaker 2: Bye bye,