1 00:00:11,189 --> 00:00:13,869 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,829 --> 00:00:18,349 Speaker 2: Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:18,349 --> 00:00:20,069 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:20,309 --> 00:00:23,909 Speaker 1: Hello, I'm m Vernon and I'm Laura Brodnick. And you've 5 00:00:23,949 --> 00:00:26,509 Speaker 1: probably clicked on this episode of the Spill because you 6 00:00:26,629 --> 00:00:30,269 Speaker 1: have seen Apple Cider Vinegar on Netflix and that's really 7 00:00:30,269 --> 00:00:33,749 Speaker 1: really good because there are some spoilers in this episode. 8 00:00:34,069 --> 00:00:37,509 Speaker 1: So the show has completely taken over Australian screens and 9 00:00:37,549 --> 00:00:40,829 Speaker 1: social media feeds. And it's a six part series that 10 00:00:40,909 --> 00:00:45,069 Speaker 1: stars Caitlin Diav as Belle Gibson, who's so well known 11 00:00:45,229 --> 00:00:49,029 Speaker 1: as the notorious wellness scammer in Australia. And the entire 12 00:00:49,109 --> 00:00:51,109 Speaker 1: slogan of the show is the best one ever. It's 13 00:00:51,229 --> 00:00:53,669 Speaker 1: a truest story based on a lie. 14 00:00:53,949 --> 00:00:56,469 Speaker 2: So in this episode we get into all the shocking 15 00:00:56,509 --> 00:00:59,589 Speaker 2: moments from the series, including what's real and what's not, 16 00:01:00,029 --> 00:01:02,309 Speaker 2: and when we tell you the real story behind some 17 00:01:02,349 --> 00:01:05,029 Speaker 2: of these scenes, honestly, you'll be shocked because it seems 18 00:01:05,069 --> 00:01:06,189 Speaker 2: too intense to be real. 19 00:01:06,389 --> 00:01:08,829 Speaker 1: And if you like this episode, we've actually done another 20 00:01:08,949 --> 00:01:12,069 Speaker 1: episode on every thing That's happened and the massive fallout 21 00:01:12,149 --> 00:01:14,749 Speaker 1: from Apple side of Vinegar since the show has come 22 00:01:14,789 --> 00:01:22,509 Speaker 1: out from MoMA Mia. Welcome to the Spill your daily 23 00:01:22,509 --> 00:01:26,349 Speaker 1: pop culture fix. I'm m Burnham and I'm Laura Brodnick, 24 00:01:26,669 --> 00:01:30,149 Speaker 1: and today we have a very special episode. It's one 25 00:01:30,149 --> 00:01:33,509 Speaker 1: of our brutally honest review episodes, one of my favorite 26 00:01:33,669 --> 00:01:34,349 Speaker 1: of all time. 27 00:01:34,829 --> 00:01:36,989 Speaker 2: So if you're not aware what a brutally honest review is, 28 00:01:37,029 --> 00:01:40,349 Speaker 2: it is where we talk about the biggest TV show 29 00:01:40,509 --> 00:01:42,949 Speaker 2: or movie of the moment, something that we know everyone 30 00:01:43,029 --> 00:01:45,949 Speaker 2: is watching, but also something that has captured the conversation 31 00:01:46,149 --> 00:01:49,149 Speaker 2: across the world. And Apple Side of Vinegar has very 32 00:01:49,189 --> 00:01:51,629 Speaker 2: much done that. Just a little warning that we are 33 00:01:51,669 --> 00:01:54,869 Speaker 2: going to be talking through all six episodes. We're going 34 00:01:54,949 --> 00:01:57,149 Speaker 2: to be talking about things that happened behind the scenes, 35 00:01:57,429 --> 00:02:00,589 Speaker 2: the true stories that inspired the biggest moments, why the 36 00:02:00,669 --> 00:02:03,269 Speaker 2: ending should happen. So if you don't want spoilers, go 37 00:02:03,309 --> 00:02:05,669 Speaker 2: and finish watching it and come back and listen. But 38 00:02:05,709 --> 00:02:07,589 Speaker 2: I think from what we've been seeing from our audience, 39 00:02:07,629 --> 00:02:10,429 Speaker 2: every single person has already devoured this series, so we 40 00:02:10,469 --> 00:02:10,989 Speaker 2: should be good. 41 00:02:11,069 --> 00:02:13,589 Speaker 1: I mean, it's our national ride. It's like the story, 42 00:02:13,949 --> 00:02:15,229 Speaker 1: it's the story of the nation. 43 00:02:15,469 --> 00:02:18,829 Speaker 2: Well, it debuted at number five worldwide, in Netflix number 44 00:02:18,869 --> 00:02:21,949 Speaker 2: one in Australia, so we were primed and ready. So 45 00:02:22,309 --> 00:02:25,469 Speaker 2: Apple Side of Viningar obviously the story of Belle Gibson, 46 00:02:25,709 --> 00:02:28,189 Speaker 2: the controverversial wellness in NASA. 47 00:02:28,229 --> 00:02:31,349 Speaker 1: Mel Gibson, because every single person I recommended this show 48 00:02:31,349 --> 00:02:33,909 Speaker 1: too has been like, oh, I didn't know that he 49 00:02:34,069 --> 00:02:35,629 Speaker 1: had like a show about him? 50 00:02:35,669 --> 00:02:36,509 Speaker 2: Wait, who said that? 51 00:02:36,829 --> 00:02:39,309 Speaker 1: Every single person I've been recommending this show. 52 00:02:39,149 --> 00:02:41,229 Speaker 2: Too before they knew what the show was about. 53 00:02:41,509 --> 00:02:42,909 Speaker 1: I was like, have you watch Apple Side of Vinan 54 00:02:42,909 --> 00:02:44,629 Speaker 1: that I've watched about And I'm like, it's about Bell 55 00:02:44,669 --> 00:02:47,309 Speaker 1: Gibson And they're like, they think they hear mel Gibson. 56 00:02:47,549 --> 00:02:48,629 Speaker 2: Okay, well that's interesting. 57 00:02:48,869 --> 00:02:51,549 Speaker 1: So it's not about mel Gibson the actor, it's about 58 00:02:51,669 --> 00:02:53,349 Speaker 1: Bell Gibson the liar. 59 00:02:53,909 --> 00:02:57,509 Speaker 2: Yes. So the Netflix series is inspired by the book 60 00:02:57,549 --> 00:02:59,749 Speaker 2: The Woman Who Fooled the World, which was written by 61 00:02:59,829 --> 00:03:03,549 Speaker 2: journalists Bo Donnelly and Nick Toscano. Obviously there are fictionalized 62 00:03:03,629 --> 00:03:05,389 Speaker 2: versions of them in the show. They are the two 63 00:03:05,429 --> 00:03:09,989 Speaker 2: journalists that originally broke the whole story around Belle Gibson 64 00:03:10,589 --> 00:03:13,109 Speaker 2: lying about being diagnosed with cancer, and they did that 65 00:03:13,229 --> 00:03:15,829 Speaker 2: by exposing the fact that she had lied about where 66 00:03:15,909 --> 00:03:19,189 Speaker 2: she was distributing the charity funds, which was nowhere, it 67 00:03:19,229 --> 00:03:22,189 Speaker 2: turns out, to herself. So the first reporting they did 68 00:03:22,229 --> 00:03:24,829 Speaker 2: was in twenty fifteen, and then they published a book 69 00:03:24,989 --> 00:03:27,789 Speaker 2: that had all their research in it two years later. 70 00:03:28,069 --> 00:03:30,389 Speaker 2: But it was also a bigger look at the wellness 71 00:03:30,389 --> 00:03:33,749 Speaker 2: industry and how Belle had used people's interest in the 72 00:03:33,749 --> 00:03:36,349 Speaker 2: wellness industry and how there were no regulations around it 73 00:03:36,749 --> 00:03:39,829 Speaker 2: to trick people, and the creators of the Netflix show 74 00:03:39,909 --> 00:03:42,549 Speaker 2: optioned the book, and then Netflix screenlit the series in 75 00:03:42,549 --> 00:03:45,309 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, so now it's finally on our screens. 76 00:03:45,669 --> 00:03:48,229 Speaker 1: When I first heard of Belle Gibson, like, I didn't 77 00:03:48,309 --> 00:03:51,069 Speaker 1: realize how big a deal this was until I watched 78 00:03:51,109 --> 00:03:52,829 Speaker 1: the sixty minutes interview. 79 00:03:52,909 --> 00:03:54,469 Speaker 2: Did you watch it live when it happened? 80 00:03:54,509 --> 00:03:57,189 Speaker 1: You mean, yeah, yeah, I watched it live because it was, like, 81 00:03:57,229 --> 00:04:00,429 Speaker 1: I feel like, the most hyped up interview ever and 82 00:04:00,469 --> 00:04:03,429 Speaker 1: it went so viral, And I just remember so specifically 83 00:04:03,549 --> 00:04:07,829 Speaker 1: her in her like turtleneck pink sweater and just looking 84 00:04:08,029 --> 00:04:12,429 Speaker 1: so she looked just like very angry but also confused, 85 00:04:12,469 --> 00:04:15,229 Speaker 1: and she just never like straight away from her words. 86 00:04:15,269 --> 00:04:17,309 Speaker 1: She never said that she was lying. She just thought 87 00:04:17,349 --> 00:04:18,549 Speaker 1: that she honestly had cancer. 88 00:04:18,949 --> 00:04:22,069 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so interesting. I definitely remember that interview going viral, 89 00:04:22,069 --> 00:04:24,189 Speaker 2: and I think that's why that out of all the 90 00:04:24,309 --> 00:04:27,149 Speaker 2: stories around Belle Gibson, when you see that sixty minutes 91 00:04:27,229 --> 00:04:30,109 Speaker 2: interview in the show, that's the one piece they've created 92 00:04:30,109 --> 00:04:32,309 Speaker 2: word for word, obviously because they have the audio and 93 00:04:32,389 --> 00:04:35,309 Speaker 2: there's no disputing what happened in the audio, but because 94 00:04:35,709 --> 00:04:38,349 Speaker 2: that's become her calling card across the world of people 95 00:04:38,469 --> 00:04:40,989 Speaker 2: know that story. It's interesting. I kind of knew about 96 00:04:41,029 --> 00:04:43,029 Speaker 2: Belle Gibson before it broke, not that I've ever been 97 00:04:43,069 --> 00:04:45,669 Speaker 2: part of wellderness cultureor anything like that, but she was 98 00:04:45,749 --> 00:04:47,549 Speaker 2: just being so hyped up by so many of the 99 00:04:47,589 --> 00:04:49,709 Speaker 2: publications I followed at the time, and you've seen the 100 00:04:49,749 --> 00:04:52,469 Speaker 2: series her going to like the Fun Fearless Awards and 101 00:04:52,509 --> 00:04:54,709 Speaker 2: all those kind of things, and like, I just remember 102 00:04:54,709 --> 00:04:57,269 Speaker 2: her being in magazines I opened and being on TV. 103 00:04:57,429 --> 00:04:59,869 Speaker 2: Really yeah, yeah, she was a big dealer. There's so 104 00:04:59,949 --> 00:05:02,749 Speaker 2: many clips circulating now. I was watching one with Sam 105 00:05:02,829 --> 00:05:04,869 Speaker 2: Armitage the other day. Again, not that she would have 106 00:05:04,909 --> 00:05:07,069 Speaker 2: known anything, like you just take it at face value, 107 00:05:07,189 --> 00:05:09,669 Speaker 2: and she's doing the morning show circuit. Bell Gibson and 108 00:05:09,709 --> 00:05:12,789 Speaker 2: she's just talking about her life in such a natural way. 109 00:05:12,829 --> 00:05:15,069 Speaker 2: And like she's talking about her app, which has been 110 00:05:15,389 --> 00:05:18,629 Speaker 2: translated into like five different languages, and it's just selling everywhere, 111 00:05:18,669 --> 00:05:20,989 Speaker 2: and her book is on every newsstand, you can buy 112 00:05:21,029 --> 00:05:23,549 Speaker 2: it a kmart, and like everyone's just fawning over her, 113 00:05:23,669 --> 00:05:26,509 Speaker 2: And why wouldn't you because she seems so natural. Like 114 00:05:26,549 --> 00:05:28,869 Speaker 2: I mean again, the book publishers probably should have checked 115 00:05:28,909 --> 00:05:30,869 Speaker 2: and the app developers should have checked about it. You 116 00:05:30,869 --> 00:05:33,909 Speaker 2: wouldn't expect the morning show hosts to check anyway. Getting 117 00:05:33,949 --> 00:05:35,749 Speaker 2: past the story of Bell Gibson because that could be 118 00:05:35,749 --> 00:05:37,829 Speaker 2: a whole other podcast. Actually, we do have a whole 119 00:05:37,829 --> 00:05:41,669 Speaker 2: other podcast or extraordinary stories all about Bell Gibson and 120 00:05:41,909 --> 00:05:44,269 Speaker 2: her life and her fall from grace, which will link 121 00:05:44,309 --> 00:05:46,429 Speaker 2: in the show notes. But let's get into the casting, 122 00:05:46,429 --> 00:05:49,349 Speaker 2: because I think the casting of Bell Gibson was always 123 00:05:49,389 --> 00:05:51,469 Speaker 2: going to be such a make or break and I 124 00:05:51,509 --> 00:05:55,029 Speaker 2: think people were initially a little skeptical, the people who 125 00:05:55,069 --> 00:05:57,949 Speaker 2: knew they were watching Bell Gibson's story, not Mel Gibson's story. 126 00:05:58,269 --> 00:06:01,989 Speaker 2: Those people were a bit skeptical over American actress Kate 127 00:06:02,069 --> 00:06:04,029 Speaker 2: Lindva being cast as Bell. 128 00:06:04,109 --> 00:06:07,869 Speaker 1: Initially, Yeah, I was skeptical as well, because she is American, 129 00:06:07,949 --> 00:06:09,829 Speaker 1: and I thought because most of the cast are a 130 00:06:09,869 --> 00:06:12,589 Speaker 1: stre so I thought they would have the main person 131 00:06:12,709 --> 00:06:16,109 Speaker 1: Bell be Australian. But she did it so well. Oh 132 00:06:16,149 --> 00:06:18,949 Speaker 1: my god, I was like one hundred percent believable. Even 133 00:06:19,029 --> 00:06:22,469 Speaker 1: like her mannerisms if you watch the comparison between the 134 00:06:22,509 --> 00:06:25,309 Speaker 1: real sixty Minutes interview and like the one that was 135 00:06:25,349 --> 00:06:28,629 Speaker 1: fictionalized on TV, her little like quirks and the way 136 00:06:28,669 --> 00:06:30,829 Speaker 1: she raised her eyebrows and even the way she like 137 00:06:30,909 --> 00:06:34,269 Speaker 1: blinks sometimes is exactly like Belle Gibson. I don't know 138 00:06:34,309 --> 00:06:36,109 Speaker 1: how she did it, but she absolutely nailed it. 139 00:06:36,189 --> 00:06:38,149 Speaker 2: Yeah, she did nail it. I think also having like 140 00:06:38,189 --> 00:06:40,189 Speaker 2: a big name but not so big enough a name, 141 00:06:40,269 --> 00:06:43,669 Speaker 2: that the casting of her overshadowed this series because I 142 00:06:43,709 --> 00:06:45,949 Speaker 2: think some people like we have obviously been long term 143 00:06:45,989 --> 00:06:49,749 Speaker 2: fans of Caitlin Diver because of book, Smart and unbelievable 144 00:06:49,909 --> 00:06:51,829 Speaker 2: and just like a lot of other different work that 145 00:06:51,869 --> 00:06:53,989 Speaker 2: she's done, but I think like a lot of people 146 00:06:54,189 --> 00:06:56,029 Speaker 2: might have been coming to her for the first time 147 00:06:56,069 --> 00:06:58,349 Speaker 2: in this so she was kind of believable as Belle. 148 00:06:58,549 --> 00:07:02,109 Speaker 2: Interestingly enough that the two other actresses are both Australian actresses, 149 00:07:02,389 --> 00:07:05,629 Speaker 2: but have found fame pretty much only playing until recently 150 00:07:06,029 --> 00:07:08,709 Speaker 2: American characters. I guess it's like if they can do it. 151 00:07:09,029 --> 00:07:12,629 Speaker 2: So Alicia didn't Ha plays Miller Blake. So a lot 152 00:07:12,629 --> 00:07:14,589 Speaker 2: of people would know Alisha from The hundred and one 153 00:07:14,589 --> 00:07:17,029 Speaker 2: of the best shows ever and Fear the Walking Dead, 154 00:07:17,189 --> 00:07:19,309 Speaker 2: but reason one of your favorite shows ever? No, no, no, 155 00:07:19,349 --> 00:07:21,269 Speaker 2: I'm a Walking Dead fan, not Fear the Walking Dead. 156 00:07:21,309 --> 00:07:24,349 Speaker 2: That's a different fandom. But she was on that show 157 00:07:24,389 --> 00:07:27,069 Speaker 2: for a very long time, and they're two big American franchises. 158 00:07:27,509 --> 00:07:29,629 Speaker 2: And then recently she was on The Lost Flowers of 159 00:07:29,629 --> 00:07:31,909 Speaker 2: Alice Hart, so she's doing a bit more Australian work. 160 00:07:32,189 --> 00:07:35,229 Speaker 2: And then Asha d very famously was an actress who 161 00:07:35,669 --> 00:07:37,709 Speaker 2: couldn't get a lot of work in Australia, and she's 162 00:07:37,709 --> 00:07:39,509 Speaker 2: talked about the fact that being a woman of color 163 00:07:39,709 --> 00:07:41,789 Speaker 2: initially shut her out of a lot of those kind 164 00:07:41,869 --> 00:07:44,749 Speaker 2: of soap operas or like kids shows. So she went 165 00:07:44,789 --> 00:07:48,069 Speaker 2: overseas and found huge fame on a great show I 166 00:07:48,109 --> 00:07:50,509 Speaker 2: would say the bold type. Yes as Cat and then 167 00:07:50,549 --> 00:07:52,789 Speaker 2: as returned to Australian has been starring and lots of 168 00:07:52,829 --> 00:07:53,629 Speaker 2: interesting things. 169 00:07:53,709 --> 00:07:56,589 Speaker 1: She's got a very interesting accent. It's like a hybrid 170 00:07:56,709 --> 00:07:59,189 Speaker 1: version of American Australian and she kind of kept it 171 00:07:59,269 --> 00:08:02,669 Speaker 1: throughout the movie, like she didn't go a hardcore Australian accent, 172 00:08:03,069 --> 00:08:04,989 Speaker 1: and I thought that was quite interesting, Like no one 173 00:08:05,029 --> 00:08:05,549 Speaker 1: addressed that. 174 00:08:06,109 --> 00:08:08,349 Speaker 2: The four kind of main females I thought were all 175 00:08:08,549 --> 00:08:11,229 Speaker 2: incredibly cast. Five, I guess if you're really counting in 176 00:08:11,309 --> 00:08:14,469 Speaker 2: Susie Porter as Tamara Miller's mother. And I think Susie 177 00:08:14,509 --> 00:08:15,349 Speaker 2: Porter's always. 178 00:08:15,149 --> 00:08:16,989 Speaker 1: Been Oh my god, she was so good. 179 00:08:17,029 --> 00:08:19,429 Speaker 2: I've just she's one of those astrain actresses who's just 180 00:08:19,629 --> 00:08:23,069 Speaker 2: in everything but is not like an international name, but 181 00:08:23,509 --> 00:08:26,189 Speaker 2: has this huge body of work. And she was incredible. 182 00:08:26,469 --> 00:08:29,709 Speaker 2: And then Tilda crobham Hervey as Lucy I thought was amazing. 183 00:08:29,869 --> 00:08:32,589 Speaker 2: She played Helen Ready in the movie about her life. 184 00:08:32,709 --> 00:08:37,309 Speaker 2: And do you hate her because she's dev Pateel's partner, Yeah, yeah. 185 00:08:36,869 --> 00:08:39,429 Speaker 1: But because of her, like dev Ptel has been spending 186 00:08:39,429 --> 00:08:41,629 Speaker 1: a lot of time in Adelaide and Adelaide together. 187 00:08:41,829 --> 00:08:42,629 Speaker 2: That's either here nor there. 188 00:08:42,669 --> 00:08:44,709 Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind seeing bumping into him at like a 189 00:08:44,709 --> 00:08:45,829 Speaker 1: farmer's market or something. 190 00:08:45,869 --> 00:08:47,669 Speaker 2: Well, you might do, but he'll have Tilda with him 191 00:08:47,669 --> 00:08:48,309 Speaker 2: and she's lovely. 192 00:08:48,349 --> 00:08:49,469 Speaker 1: Thanks Tilda for bringing him. 193 00:08:52,349 --> 00:08:54,189 Speaker 2: I'd lied to welcome on the stage. 194 00:08:54,389 --> 00:08:59,429 Speaker 1: Shelle Gibson. It must have affected her that my book 195 00:08:59,469 --> 00:09:02,269 Speaker 1: was reviewed as better than hers. I'm sorry. 196 00:09:02,509 --> 00:09:08,229 Speaker 2: Who's her Miller? She was diagnosed with cancer, so she's 197 00:09:08,269 --> 00:09:11,549 Speaker 2: consistently maintained. I have no reason to doubt her because 198 00:09:11,589 --> 00:09:16,189 Speaker 2: in her case it's true. It's funny my doctor said 199 00:09:16,269 --> 00:09:19,869 Speaker 2: you have brain cancer. He's a bloggie my life. She's 200 00:09:20,069 --> 00:09:24,109 Speaker 2: just like you. We do look incredibly well. 201 00:09:24,509 --> 00:09:25,429 Speaker 1: I've never felt better. 202 00:09:26,789 --> 00:09:30,109 Speaker 2: I have to find the right way for me. I 203 00:09:30,309 --> 00:09:35,269 Speaker 2: just got each other. Loved the session for all body goosebumps. 204 00:09:35,429 --> 00:09:42,389 Speaker 2: Thanks for coming Bell Bell Gibson the brain cancer right, 205 00:09:45,389 --> 00:09:47,669 Speaker 2: So we should probably talk about the character of Milla Blake, 206 00:09:47,669 --> 00:09:51,189 Speaker 2: who's also really set up to be the lead alongside 207 00:09:51,189 --> 00:09:53,669 Speaker 2: Belle Gibson. The creators of the show have said that 208 00:09:53,989 --> 00:09:56,029 Speaker 2: this was never meant to be like the rise and 209 00:09:56,109 --> 00:09:58,149 Speaker 2: fall of Bell Gibson. She was only meant to be 210 00:09:58,269 --> 00:09:59,949 Speaker 2: one part of it, and that's why it's called Apple 211 00:09:59,949 --> 00:10:03,109 Speaker 2: side of Vinegar. It's not named after her because they 212 00:10:03,109 --> 00:10:06,149 Speaker 2: wanted to show it as like how wellness influencers used 213 00:10:06,189 --> 00:10:08,709 Speaker 2: Instagram at the time but obviously because she is the 214 00:10:08,709 --> 00:10:11,989 Speaker 2: big name, we really have like hooked onto that. What 215 00:10:12,029 --> 00:10:14,269 Speaker 2: did you think about the disclaimers at the beginning of 216 00:10:14,269 --> 00:10:16,389 Speaker 2: each episode where they break the fourth wall, So like 217 00:10:16,429 --> 00:10:18,949 Speaker 2: the first time we see Caitlyn Diva do it where 218 00:10:18,989 --> 00:10:20,789 Speaker 2: she looks to the camera and said, some names have 219 00:10:20,869 --> 00:10:23,269 Speaker 2: been changed to protect the innocent. Belle Gibson has not 220 00:10:23,349 --> 00:10:25,189 Speaker 2: been paid for the recreation of her story. 221 00:10:25,309 --> 00:10:28,109 Speaker 1: Is there a reason why, like they do it for 222 00:10:28,189 --> 00:10:30,749 Speaker 1: every single episode, Like, is there like some contract or 223 00:10:30,829 --> 00:10:33,349 Speaker 1: legalities behind that? Because I was like, I liked it 224 00:10:33,389 --> 00:10:35,669 Speaker 1: for the first episode, especially because it was Caitlyn Diva 225 00:10:35,709 --> 00:10:39,109 Speaker 1: and she's still being bell where she says Belle Gibson 226 00:10:39,149 --> 00:10:40,749 Speaker 1: was not compensated for that, and she's like, of course 227 00:10:40,749 --> 00:10:44,709 Speaker 1: she was fucking wasn't that? Yeah, fuckers? But after like 228 00:10:44,789 --> 00:10:46,069 Speaker 1: the first one, I was like, I don't need to 229 00:10:46,109 --> 00:10:46,629 Speaker 1: hear this again. 230 00:10:46,789 --> 00:10:49,149 Speaker 2: No, there's a reason they Actually there's two reasons why 231 00:10:49,189 --> 00:10:51,829 Speaker 2: they did it for every single episode. One is that 232 00:10:51,949 --> 00:10:55,029 Speaker 2: the creator and writer of Apple Side of Vinegar, Samantha Strauss, 233 00:10:55,229 --> 00:10:57,469 Speaker 2: thought it was just really important to include from a 234 00:10:57,509 --> 00:11:00,469 Speaker 2: moral standpoint, So she said she'd optioned the book and 235 00:11:00,509 --> 00:11:02,229 Speaker 2: she was going into production and she was writing the 236 00:11:02,309 --> 00:11:05,109 Speaker 2: script and she was talking to a friend whose partner 237 00:11:05,149 --> 00:11:09,229 Speaker 2: has brain cancer, and she said they were absolutely horrified, 238 00:11:09,589 --> 00:11:11,869 Speaker 2: Like Samantha, his friends said, horrify that she was doing 239 00:11:11,949 --> 00:11:14,109 Speaker 2: this show. And they had said, why would you give 240 00:11:14,109 --> 00:11:16,269 Speaker 2: this woman more oxygen? Don't you know what she's done, 241 00:11:16,309 --> 00:11:18,869 Speaker 2: don't you know what she's still doing? And is she 242 00:11:18,909 --> 00:11:21,189 Speaker 2: being paid from it? And that was the question that 243 00:11:21,189 --> 00:11:23,989 Speaker 2: Samantha found every time she talked to people about the show, 244 00:11:24,509 --> 00:11:26,709 Speaker 2: is that they all just assumed that Belle Gibson was 245 00:11:26,749 --> 00:11:29,189 Speaker 2: in some way involved or assumed that she had to 246 00:11:29,229 --> 00:11:30,749 Speaker 2: be paid for it in some way. And for so 247 00:11:30,829 --> 00:11:34,109 Speaker 2: many people, especially people who had donated to her causes 248 00:11:34,149 --> 00:11:35,509 Speaker 2: as we see in the show, and then like the 249 00:11:35,509 --> 00:11:38,069 Speaker 2: money never went to those people, People who had bought 250 00:11:38,109 --> 00:11:40,589 Speaker 2: her books and apps and you know, lost money and 251 00:11:40,709 --> 00:11:42,469 Speaker 2: they could have been spending on other things, or people 252 00:11:42,469 --> 00:11:44,469 Speaker 2: who followed her for years and felt tricked, or. 253 00:11:44,469 --> 00:11:47,069 Speaker 1: People who could have just died from like following like. 254 00:11:47,109 --> 00:11:49,309 Speaker 2: Her by her saying I kid my cancer and using 255 00:11:49,309 --> 00:11:51,349 Speaker 2: this happy, beautiful woman and you're like, yeah, I could 256 00:11:51,389 --> 00:11:54,269 Speaker 2: have that. So people were really upset that they thought 257 00:11:54,269 --> 00:11:56,389 Speaker 2: she was profiting off the Netflix show, So they thought 258 00:11:56,429 --> 00:12:00,509 Speaker 2: they had to really hammer home in every single episode 259 00:12:00,549 --> 00:12:03,429 Speaker 2: that she wasn't just so people knew that wasn't happening. 260 00:12:03,669 --> 00:12:06,709 Speaker 2: But also the other big thing was the defamation part 261 00:12:06,749 --> 00:12:09,269 Speaker 2: of it. Obviously it would be kind of hard to 262 00:12:09,309 --> 00:12:09,989 Speaker 2: defame Bellgi. 263 00:12:10,749 --> 00:12:13,149 Speaker 1: It's really confusing to me because, like they name her, 264 00:12:13,309 --> 00:12:15,509 Speaker 1: they go through a lot of things like in detail 265 00:12:15,709 --> 00:12:19,709 Speaker 1: of like everything that Belle Gibson has done, and I wonder, 266 00:12:19,789 --> 00:12:21,829 Speaker 1: like how do they get away with doing that? Like 267 00:12:21,909 --> 00:12:24,189 Speaker 1: how could they make themselves fit safe? 268 00:12:24,589 --> 00:12:27,589 Speaker 2: Well, one thing with defamation is that the person who's 269 00:12:27,629 --> 00:12:31,989 Speaker 2: claiming to have been defamed has to prove that a 270 00:12:32,069 --> 00:12:34,869 Speaker 2: publication is lying about them in a way that has 271 00:12:34,949 --> 00:12:38,909 Speaker 2: taken away their reputation. Obviously, there's a lot more legal lays. 272 00:12:39,029 --> 00:12:40,669 Speaker 2: This is just a very top white explanation. 273 00:12:40,909 --> 00:12:42,549 Speaker 1: Do they get away with it because she doesn't have 274 00:12:42,589 --> 00:12:43,309 Speaker 1: a reputation? 275 00:12:43,549 --> 00:12:46,269 Speaker 2: No? No, she can't prove she has cancer, and she 276 00:12:46,349 --> 00:12:49,189 Speaker 2: can't prove that she gave the money to charity, and 277 00:12:49,229 --> 00:12:52,309 Speaker 2: she can't all those things. She can't prove. The other thing, though, 278 00:12:52,349 --> 00:12:55,149 Speaker 2: is that they keep saying this is a true ish 279 00:12:55,189 --> 00:12:58,749 Speaker 2: story based on a lie, and what we've seen recently 280 00:12:58,789 --> 00:13:01,829 Speaker 2: with a few shows, like namely Baby Reindeer is that 281 00:13:01,909 --> 00:13:04,629 Speaker 2: they say this is based on a true story, which 282 00:13:04,669 --> 00:13:07,509 Speaker 2: is why the woman who Baby Reindeer is about has 283 00:13:07,589 --> 00:13:09,549 Speaker 2: now been given the green light to go ahead with 284 00:13:09,549 --> 00:13:13,509 Speaker 2: a hundreds seventy million dollar defamation suit against Netflix because 285 00:13:13,509 --> 00:13:15,669 Speaker 2: they said this is a true story rather than saying 286 00:13:15,709 --> 00:13:18,829 Speaker 2: this is based on a true story. So every time 287 00:13:19,189 --> 00:13:21,629 Speaker 2: the characters in the Netflix show say this is a 288 00:13:21,669 --> 00:13:25,389 Speaker 2: true ish story based on a lie, names have been changed, 289 00:13:25,789 --> 00:13:29,229 Speaker 2: they're immediately deflecting a lot of the defamation because they're 290 00:13:29,229 --> 00:13:31,789 Speaker 2: not claiming it's real. Like and also a lot of 291 00:13:31,829 --> 00:13:33,469 Speaker 2: people like, we're going to go through the characters now 292 00:13:33,469 --> 00:13:35,989 Speaker 2: and say who's real and who's not. The creators of 293 00:13:35,989 --> 00:13:38,349 Speaker 2: the show haven't actually come out except for saying that 294 00:13:38,349 --> 00:13:41,149 Speaker 2: Bell Gibson is based on Bell Gibson. They haven't actually 295 00:13:41,149 --> 00:13:42,869 Speaker 2: come out and said a lot of these people are 296 00:13:42,869 --> 00:13:45,309 Speaker 2: based on the people who we have just been able 297 00:13:45,309 --> 00:13:47,389 Speaker 2: to piece that together because of defamation. 298 00:13:47,909 --> 00:13:52,309 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was one character, Miller Blake in particular, who 299 00:13:52,829 --> 00:13:56,909 Speaker 1: I remember we wrote about an influencer years ago named 300 00:13:57,109 --> 00:14:01,269 Speaker 1: jess Ainsko, and I was like, this is exactly the 301 00:14:01,349 --> 00:14:05,549 Speaker 1: same person, Like it's exactly Jess, And that confused me 302 00:14:05,669 --> 00:14:09,309 Speaker 1: because Jess was, like, I guess Belle's competitor in this 303 00:14:09,549 --> 00:14:14,229 Speaker 1: like wellness space of curing cancer through natural remedies rather 304 00:14:14,269 --> 00:14:17,629 Speaker 1: than like the clinical side of things. And she tragically 305 00:14:17,669 --> 00:14:19,989 Speaker 1: passed away from her cancer and she had the same 306 00:14:20,269 --> 00:14:22,669 Speaker 1: like Miller in the show had the exact same type 307 00:14:22,669 --> 00:14:25,909 Speaker 1: of cancer as Jes did. Jess's mother passed away from 308 00:14:26,229 --> 00:14:31,109 Speaker 1: going through Jess's like alternative medicine root, and then Miller's 309 00:14:31,149 --> 00:14:34,229 Speaker 1: mom passed away. So I was like, this is spot on, 310 00:14:34,429 --> 00:14:36,549 Speaker 1: but why would they change the name? 311 00:14:37,189 --> 00:14:39,909 Speaker 2: Well, that's the interesting thing with Jessica ames Co is 312 00:14:39,949 --> 00:14:42,469 Speaker 2: that the show has said that she's just one of 313 00:14:42,509 --> 00:14:45,749 Speaker 2: the influences that the character of Milla Blake is based on. 314 00:14:46,029 --> 00:14:47,869 Speaker 2: But when you look like you're saying, when you look 315 00:14:47,909 --> 00:14:49,909 Speaker 2: at the comparison, like, no, it was her, it seems 316 00:14:49,909 --> 00:14:52,509 Speaker 2: almost pretty much based on her. So in the show 317 00:14:52,549 --> 00:14:54,829 Speaker 2: we see her working in the girlfriend office, but in 318 00:14:54,869 --> 00:14:57,589 Speaker 2: real life she did work at Dolly. When being diagnosed 319 00:14:57,589 --> 00:14:59,909 Speaker 2: with a very rare cancer that does start in the arm, 320 00:15:00,069 --> 00:15:03,269 Speaker 2: she said yes to chemotherapy originally as Miller does on 321 00:15:03,309 --> 00:15:06,709 Speaker 2: the show, and then they have renamed the type of 322 00:15:06,949 --> 00:15:09,869 Speaker 2: alternative health medicine in the show from what she went 323 00:15:09,909 --> 00:15:12,069 Speaker 2: through in real life. But it was basically almost exactly 324 00:15:12,069 --> 00:15:14,749 Speaker 2: the same thing of the idea of like no toxins, 325 00:15:14,789 --> 00:15:18,189 Speaker 2: no alcohol, no sugar, coffee enemas. And that was how 326 00:15:18,589 --> 00:15:21,669 Speaker 2: Jess ains Coe became very famous, Like she was almost 327 00:15:21,669 --> 00:15:26,109 Speaker 2: became an influencer before influencers were really a thing, because 328 00:15:26,149 --> 00:15:28,149 Speaker 2: she was there at the birth of Instagram, but also 329 00:15:28,189 --> 00:15:31,349 Speaker 2: she started before Instagrayah, like she moved her blog is 330 00:15:31,349 --> 00:15:33,509 Speaker 2: where she gained so much traction, and then she was 331 00:15:33,549 --> 00:15:37,149 Speaker 2: able to parlay that fame as Belle did, into books, 332 00:15:37,149 --> 00:15:40,629 Speaker 2: into speaking to us, into winning awards. Alicia dem Nakara, 333 00:15:40,709 --> 00:15:42,509 Speaker 2: who plays her, said that she's meant to be an 334 00:15:42,509 --> 00:15:46,229 Speaker 2: amalgamation of different influencers, which we can obviously see. 335 00:15:46,029 --> 00:15:48,109 Speaker 1: That ninety percent of one particular influence. 336 00:15:48,189 --> 00:15:50,509 Speaker 2: That it's hard because a lot of Jess's blogs that 337 00:15:50,589 --> 00:15:52,749 Speaker 2: she wrote at the time have been marked a private 338 00:15:52,789 --> 00:15:54,469 Speaker 2: and the videos that she made, but a lot of 339 00:15:54,509 --> 00:15:56,189 Speaker 2: the work that she did is still around so you 340 00:15:56,229 --> 00:15:58,589 Speaker 2: can go and read it. And the way she talks 341 00:15:58,589 --> 00:16:01,429 Speaker 2: and her turn of phrase and everything is very similar 342 00:16:01,469 --> 00:16:04,069 Speaker 2: to the character. So they've really embedded that and as 343 00:16:04,069 --> 00:16:06,469 Speaker 2: you're saying the same thing with her like personal life, 344 00:16:06,549 --> 00:16:09,149 Speaker 2: like she was very much in love and married her 345 00:16:09,229 --> 00:16:13,269 Speaker 2: husband Talan, you know, before she passed away, and her mother, 346 00:16:13,309 --> 00:16:15,909 Speaker 2: who she was very close with, after she was diagnosed 347 00:16:15,909 --> 00:16:19,309 Speaker 2: with breast cancer, followed her daughter's health advice and that's 348 00:16:19,309 --> 00:16:22,429 Speaker 2: why she died. And one of Jessica's last blog posts, 349 00:16:22,429 --> 00:16:25,389 Speaker 2: which is horrific, as talking about how her body had 350 00:16:25,389 --> 00:16:27,269 Speaker 2: just deteriorated and saying that she didn't know how to 351 00:16:27,269 --> 00:16:29,629 Speaker 2: live in a world without her mother, which is kind 352 00:16:29,629 --> 00:16:31,869 Speaker 2: of like a you know, a story that we see 353 00:16:32,189 --> 00:16:34,069 Speaker 2: mirroat in the show, but they. 354 00:16:33,909 --> 00:16:35,509 Speaker 1: Also make her quite unlikable. 355 00:16:35,749 --> 00:16:36,989 Speaker 2: Did you think so? Yes? 356 00:16:37,149 --> 00:16:40,709 Speaker 1: I hated her character, did you yeah? Interestingly I kind 357 00:16:40,709 --> 00:16:41,789 Speaker 1: of hated her more than Bell. 358 00:16:42,149 --> 00:16:47,229 Speaker 2: It's interesting at different parts of the show, I really 359 00:16:47,229 --> 00:16:50,149 Speaker 2: dislike these women, and then sometimes I just felt so 360 00:16:50,269 --> 00:16:53,509 Speaker 2: much empathy for them, even Belle Gibson. Like so many 361 00:16:53,549 --> 00:16:55,709 Speaker 2: people who were going into the show, because obviously we 362 00:16:55,749 --> 00:16:57,589 Speaker 2: got to watch it a bit early, so many people 363 00:16:57,629 --> 00:16:59,269 Speaker 2: going into the show said to me like, oh, I 364 00:16:59,269 --> 00:17:01,549 Speaker 2: hate Belle Gibson. I can't wait to watch this, And 365 00:17:01,589 --> 00:17:03,309 Speaker 2: I had to say to them like it's not this 366 00:17:03,509 --> 00:17:05,509 Speaker 2: big take down of her that you think it's going 367 00:17:05,549 --> 00:17:08,349 Speaker 2: to be, Like she's humanized in a really interesting way, 368 00:17:08,389 --> 00:17:10,549 Speaker 2: is that, especially in the first episode where you see 369 00:17:10,549 --> 00:17:14,709 Speaker 2: her just this like lonely lost young woman who is 370 00:17:14,869 --> 00:17:17,509 Speaker 2: pregnant and has no support and has obviously come from 371 00:17:17,549 --> 00:17:19,989 Speaker 2: a terrible home excusing what she did. But I think 372 00:17:19,989 --> 00:17:22,389 Speaker 2: it's also interesting to sort of see that, like a 373 00:17:22,429 --> 00:17:24,509 Speaker 2: lot of people who do terrible things in life, like 374 00:17:24,549 --> 00:17:26,829 Speaker 2: they don't just appear out of thin air and act 375 00:17:26,909 --> 00:17:28,709 Speaker 2: that way, Like there's a lot of lead up that 376 00:17:28,829 --> 00:17:30,669 Speaker 2: goes there. Yeah, And I thought they did a really 377 00:17:30,709 --> 00:17:32,829 Speaker 2: good job of humanizing her. So by the time she 378 00:17:32,829 --> 00:17:36,429 Speaker 2: starts like lying about having cancer, I like totally understood 379 00:17:36,429 --> 00:17:38,589 Speaker 2: why she did that. Those graphics on the screen where 380 00:17:38,589 --> 00:17:40,709 Speaker 2: they have all the light and the red and the 381 00:17:40,709 --> 00:17:43,269 Speaker 2: gold colors that come out of her phone and like 382 00:17:43,469 --> 00:17:46,509 Speaker 2: envelop her in love when she reaches out for help online, 383 00:17:46,629 --> 00:17:49,709 Speaker 2: I thought was like a really accurate representation of the 384 00:17:49,749 --> 00:17:52,149 Speaker 2: dopamine hit you get when you get love. 385 00:17:52,029 --> 00:17:55,229 Speaker 1: From social addictive. Like if you've ever had like a 386 00:17:55,229 --> 00:17:58,829 Speaker 1: piece of social media be validated by a whole bunch 387 00:17:58,909 --> 00:18:01,229 Speaker 1: of strangers, it's like you run on that high for 388 00:18:01,269 --> 00:18:03,909 Speaker 1: so long and you just constantly need the another post 389 00:18:03,909 --> 00:18:04,789 Speaker 1: to go as viral. 390 00:18:05,269 --> 00:18:07,309 Speaker 2: And what part about Miller didn't you like just that 391 00:18:07,389 --> 00:18:10,589 Speaker 2: she wasn't saying yes to the cancer treatment or was 392 00:18:10,629 --> 00:18:12,069 Speaker 2: she kind of evolved as an influencer. 393 00:18:12,189 --> 00:18:15,029 Speaker 1: I think it was when she brought her mom into 394 00:18:15,109 --> 00:18:18,989 Speaker 1: it that like absolutely destroyed me, especially the scene with 395 00:18:19,029 --> 00:18:22,109 Speaker 1: her dad saying to her mom, she's killing you. She's 396 00:18:22,149 --> 00:18:23,589 Speaker 1: going to kill you and she's like, no, I'm not. 397 00:18:25,109 --> 00:18:27,389 Speaker 1: It's so like hard and then like her mom And 398 00:18:27,429 --> 00:18:29,229 Speaker 1: this is why Susie Port I thought was brilliant in 399 00:18:29,269 --> 00:18:32,509 Speaker 1: this role when she said what kind of mother would 400 00:18:32,549 --> 00:18:33,669 Speaker 1: I be if I don't do this? 401 00:18:34,109 --> 00:18:34,429 Speaker 2: I know? 402 00:18:34,629 --> 00:18:36,749 Speaker 1: And like because she let her daughter do it so 403 00:18:36,869 --> 00:18:39,869 Speaker 1: and I'm like, that's so true, Like it's all so true, 404 00:18:40,029 --> 00:18:43,189 Speaker 1: Like it felt so real and it was just she's real. 405 00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:46,229 Speaker 1: The whole scene of her speaking about it just felt 406 00:18:46,229 --> 00:18:48,989 Speaker 1: so real and it was just so tragic and you 407 00:18:49,149 --> 00:18:51,189 Speaker 1: just knew what was going to happen and you were 408 00:18:51,229 --> 00:18:52,989 Speaker 1: just so scared that it wasn't going to happen, and 409 00:18:52,989 --> 00:18:55,709 Speaker 1: it does happen. It was just really sad, and that 410 00:18:55,829 --> 00:18:57,989 Speaker 1: just pissed me off about her like when my mom died, 411 00:18:58,029 --> 00:18:58,829 Speaker 1: I was like, I hate you. 412 00:18:59,349 --> 00:19:02,229 Speaker 2: I know the visceral anger I felt through watching this show. 413 00:19:02,269 --> 00:19:02,989 Speaker 2: It's quite surprised. 414 00:19:02,989 --> 00:19:04,909 Speaker 1: I felt like we all toed on her on Collogist. 415 00:19:05,029 --> 00:19:07,429 Speaker 2: Yeah, like he was just so ancrying when he was like, 416 00:19:07,469 --> 00:19:10,549 Speaker 2: just to be clear, you will die and died. Oh no, 417 00:19:10,629 --> 00:19:13,429 Speaker 2: don't do it. But doctors have to sometimes use that 418 00:19:13,589 --> 00:19:16,749 Speaker 2: language so that there's no gray area. It's like when 419 00:19:16,789 --> 00:19:18,589 Speaker 2: a doctor comes out to tell you that a loved 420 00:19:18,629 --> 00:19:20,989 Speaker 2: one has died, they have to say they have died. 421 00:19:21,029 --> 00:19:23,149 Speaker 2: They can't say passed away, they can't say anything like 422 00:19:23,149 --> 00:19:26,629 Speaker 2: that because they've been taught to like use this language 423 00:19:26,629 --> 00:19:29,629 Speaker 2: that it sounds harsh, but it's no gray area. There's 424 00:19:29,629 --> 00:19:32,589 Speaker 2: no brain from misinterpretation of what that means. The idea 425 00:19:32,589 --> 00:19:33,909 Speaker 2: of her mother, Like, it was hard for me to 426 00:19:33,949 --> 00:19:35,389 Speaker 2: hate her as a character for that, even though I 427 00:19:35,429 --> 00:19:39,029 Speaker 2: was really angry watching it, because it's like she was 428 00:19:39,149 --> 00:19:41,349 Speaker 2: so close to her mother and loved her so much, 429 00:19:41,629 --> 00:19:44,549 Speaker 2: and the only reason that she wanted her to go 430 00:19:44,629 --> 00:19:47,549 Speaker 2: through that same healthcare situation that she had gone through, 431 00:19:47,629 --> 00:19:51,109 Speaker 2: that take that same wellness journey was that because at 432 00:19:51,149 --> 00:19:53,509 Speaker 2: that point in her life, she one hundred percent believed 433 00:19:53,509 --> 00:19:55,909 Speaker 2: that he had cured her. Yeah, and that's why she 434 00:19:55,989 --> 00:19:58,149 Speaker 2: was so hesitant, Like when they're in the hospital, that 435 00:19:58,189 --> 00:20:00,069 Speaker 2: scene where she's saying to the doctor, just so you know, 436 00:20:00,149 --> 00:20:02,749 Speaker 2: our family has a really bad history, and the family 437 00:20:02,789 --> 00:20:05,429 Speaker 2: doesn't have a bad history with doctors. It's just that 438 00:20:05,469 --> 00:20:07,509 Speaker 2: at that point in time, because she hasn't had any 439 00:20:07,549 --> 00:20:10,989 Speaker 2: scans to show that her cancer is growing until later on, 440 00:20:11,189 --> 00:20:14,389 Speaker 2: she thinks she's saving her mother's life, and she's willing 441 00:20:14,429 --> 00:20:17,309 Speaker 2: to like make enemies. She's willing to have her father 442 00:20:17,349 --> 00:20:19,229 Speaker 2: be angry at her. She's willing to use up all 443 00:20:19,269 --> 00:20:21,469 Speaker 2: their money because she thinks she's saving her mother's life, 444 00:20:21,469 --> 00:20:23,189 Speaker 2: which makes it so much more tragic. 445 00:20:23,309 --> 00:20:26,149 Speaker 1: And I was thinking like, and it's so easy for 446 00:20:26,229 --> 00:20:29,789 Speaker 1: me to say, as someone who's like perfectly healthy Touchwood, 447 00:20:30,229 --> 00:20:32,589 Speaker 1: is that imagine what it could have been if she 448 00:20:32,949 --> 00:20:35,029 Speaker 1: had just done the surgery. 449 00:20:35,389 --> 00:20:35,789 Speaker 2: Yeah. 450 00:20:35,829 --> 00:20:37,949 Speaker 1: But then I'm also like, you can't ask a twenty 451 00:20:37,989 --> 00:20:40,789 Speaker 1: two year old woman to get rid of her arm. 452 00:20:40,909 --> 00:20:44,549 Speaker 2: Essentially, It's interesting because after Jessica aans Co died and 453 00:20:44,589 --> 00:20:46,789 Speaker 2: there was a big public memorial for her that a 454 00:20:46,789 --> 00:20:50,549 Speaker 2: lot of people went to her father and husband put 455 00:20:50,589 --> 00:20:51,989 Speaker 2: out a release, and you know, a lot of it 456 00:20:52,029 --> 00:20:54,869 Speaker 2: was like thanking people for their support and talking about 457 00:20:54,909 --> 00:20:57,669 Speaker 2: what Jessica had meant for people. But they also included 458 00:20:57,709 --> 00:20:59,589 Speaker 2: a statement where they said, it has been reported that 459 00:20:59,629 --> 00:21:02,669 Speaker 2: a Jessica had received a certain type of medical care 460 00:21:02,669 --> 00:21:05,269 Speaker 2: and paraphrasing here that she would have lived and that 461 00:21:05,389 --> 00:21:07,829 Speaker 2: is incorrect. So whether or not that's incorrect or not, 462 00:21:07,869 --> 00:21:09,869 Speaker 2: I don't know. I wasn't involved in her medical treatment, 463 00:21:09,909 --> 00:21:12,669 Speaker 2: but I just thought it was quite interesting that even 464 00:21:12,829 --> 00:21:15,189 Speaker 2: like at the end of her life, after all that 465 00:21:15,189 --> 00:21:17,709 Speaker 2: had happened, they were still wanting to put out this 466 00:21:17,789 --> 00:21:20,029 Speaker 2: thing saying like, don't judge her for what she did, 467 00:21:20,109 --> 00:21:22,989 Speaker 2: because she didn't do the wrong thing, like that kind 468 00:21:22,989 --> 00:21:31,709 Speaker 2: of protectiveness on her. I want to build something meaningful, 469 00:21:31,749 --> 00:21:32,149 Speaker 2: the love. 470 00:21:33,229 --> 00:21:36,189 Speaker 1: I've recently been diagnosed with a third of cancer. 471 00:21:36,749 --> 00:21:38,789 Speaker 2: It has ninety thousand blikes. 472 00:21:39,349 --> 00:21:41,149 Speaker 1: She does not have this blame cancer. 473 00:21:42,749 --> 00:21:44,589 Speaker 2: Always know what you're putting a body. 474 00:21:47,869 --> 00:21:55,069 Speaker 1: Bell, It's a simple question, do you have cancer? I 475 00:21:55,149 --> 00:21:56,029 Speaker 1: want to destroy her. 476 00:21:58,149 --> 00:22:01,589 Speaker 2: Something I thought was interesting is how they fictionalize this 477 00:22:01,669 --> 00:22:05,109 Speaker 2: kind of rivalry between Miller and Bell, which I guess 478 00:22:05,109 --> 00:22:08,029 Speaker 2: you did need to push the show along because in 479 00:22:08,069 --> 00:22:10,509 Speaker 2: real life, Bell and Jessica did cross paths, but it 480 00:22:10,549 --> 00:22:11,429 Speaker 2: was different to the show. 481 00:22:11,749 --> 00:22:14,869 Speaker 1: I read that Belle like also like attended her funeral. 482 00:22:14,909 --> 00:22:18,069 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, no, that funeral seems so that out 483 00:22:18,069 --> 00:22:19,029 Speaker 2: of everything in the show. 484 00:22:19,069 --> 00:22:20,389 Speaker 1: I was like, surely this part. 485 00:22:20,229 --> 00:22:23,469 Speaker 2: Of the that part is so real. So I know, 486 00:22:23,629 --> 00:22:25,789 Speaker 2: I like, we have to how did she do? I know? 487 00:22:25,909 --> 00:22:27,309 Speaker 2: I put that story up on side because I was like, 488 00:22:27,309 --> 00:22:29,269 Speaker 2: the people need to know about this. So Belle and 489 00:22:29,349 --> 00:22:31,629 Speaker 2: Jessica first met at a conference they didn't know each other, 490 00:22:31,989 --> 00:22:34,909 Speaker 2: and Jessica's manager later on, this is all coming from 491 00:22:34,949 --> 00:22:35,309 Speaker 2: the book. 492 00:22:35,349 --> 00:22:37,909 Speaker 1: It's Jessica's manager, the one who Chanelle is. 493 00:22:38,509 --> 00:22:40,829 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, this is a different job. Oh, Shanell 494 00:22:40,949 --> 00:22:41,509 Speaker 2: is a real person. 495 00:22:41,589 --> 00:22:42,589 Speaker 1: Yes, we'll get to okay. 496 00:22:42,789 --> 00:22:44,789 Speaker 2: All these stories of what was true and what's not 497 00:22:44,989 --> 00:22:47,349 Speaker 2: are coming from the original book this series is based 498 00:22:47,389 --> 00:22:49,349 Speaker 2: on because they interviewed a lot of people involved in 499 00:22:49,389 --> 00:22:52,629 Speaker 2: the situation and they said that Jessica and Bell met 500 00:22:52,669 --> 00:22:55,509 Speaker 2: for the first time at a conference where Belle came 501 00:22:55,589 --> 00:22:58,709 Speaker 2: up and introduced herself to Jessica, and Jessica later told 502 00:22:58,709 --> 00:23:01,029 Speaker 2: her manager and her manager as the one being interviewed 503 00:23:01,469 --> 00:23:04,109 Speaker 2: that she was very wary of her and felt a 504 00:23:04,109 --> 00:23:07,309 Speaker 2: little uneasy. But they did continue to have this Instagram 505 00:23:07,349 --> 00:23:10,949 Speaker 2: relationship after this, where they would leave comments on each 506 00:23:10,989 --> 00:23:13,789 Speaker 2: other's posts, you know, celebrating each other, love hearts, all 507 00:23:13,789 --> 00:23:16,669 Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. And then when she died, she 508 00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:19,709 Speaker 2: did attend her funeral, and it's written in the book 509 00:23:19,709 --> 00:23:21,709 Speaker 2: that her family and friends were like, one, how did 510 00:23:21,709 --> 00:23:23,309 Speaker 2: you know what was happening here? How did you know 511 00:23:23,309 --> 00:23:25,229 Speaker 2: where the house was? They don't know how she showed 512 00:23:25,309 --> 00:23:28,549 Speaker 2: up and how she's sobbing in the church when I 513 00:23:28,589 --> 00:23:30,069 Speaker 2: was watching that, because I went and looked up a 514 00:23:30,109 --> 00:23:33,069 Speaker 2: lot of these things later, I thought, surely this is 515 00:23:33,109 --> 00:23:36,229 Speaker 2: the fictional life. Pot Surely the real Bell Gibson did 516 00:23:36,229 --> 00:23:39,429 Speaker 2: not walk into that young woman's funeral and sob and 517 00:23:39,469 --> 00:23:43,749 Speaker 2: make it about her. But she did, and her friends 518 00:23:43,749 --> 00:23:45,829 Speaker 2: and family later said when they were interviewed that it 519 00:23:45,869 --> 00:23:48,549 Speaker 2: looked like she was trying to show that her grief 520 00:23:48,629 --> 00:23:50,309 Speaker 2: was more than everyone else, and that she was trying 521 00:23:50,309 --> 00:23:53,509 Speaker 2: to steal the spotlight. And it's also alleged that the 522 00:23:53,549 --> 00:23:56,749 Speaker 2: wake afterwards, again, how did she go? She went, and 523 00:23:56,829 --> 00:23:58,589 Speaker 2: she went into the bedroom like she does in the 524 00:23:58,589 --> 00:24:01,509 Speaker 2: show and tried to sob and like comfort her fiance 525 00:24:02,309 --> 00:24:05,029 Speaker 2: or her husband, her husband in real life and. 526 00:24:05,509 --> 00:24:07,469 Speaker 1: It away so good where he was like, you gave 527 00:24:07,509 --> 00:24:08,029 Speaker 1: her the creep. 528 00:24:08,309 --> 00:24:10,589 Speaker 2: Yeah, she've had a full freak out and he was like, 529 00:24:10,669 --> 00:24:14,069 Speaker 2: get away from me. It's like obviously. But I also 530 00:24:14,149 --> 00:24:16,149 Speaker 2: think that that was kind of interesting that they took 531 00:24:16,189 --> 00:24:19,349 Speaker 2: this little nugget of what had happened in real life. 532 00:24:19,429 --> 00:24:22,709 Speaker 2: Is that Belle really seemed to idolize Jessica, or maybe 533 00:24:22,709 --> 00:24:24,989 Speaker 2: she didn't nihlize her, Maybe she just wanted she saw 534 00:24:25,029 --> 00:24:27,989 Speaker 2: this outpouring of like genuine love and affection that her 535 00:24:28,069 --> 00:24:30,789 Speaker 2: family and friends and followers had for her because she 536 00:24:30,949 --> 00:24:33,509 Speaker 2: was sick and she wanted to bask in that. And 537 00:24:33,549 --> 00:24:36,229 Speaker 2: they were both two beautiful, blonde, attractive women who had 538 00:24:36,229 --> 00:24:40,669 Speaker 2: made a career of these wellness platforms. But I thought 539 00:24:40,669 --> 00:24:42,749 Speaker 2: in the show was interesting how they kind of dial 540 00:24:42,869 --> 00:24:45,629 Speaker 2: that up so intensely, And I think you kind of 541 00:24:46,069 --> 00:24:48,669 Speaker 2: needed that to kind of push the story along and 542 00:24:48,709 --> 00:24:52,149 Speaker 2: show like just because everything is all light and fluffy 543 00:24:52,149 --> 00:24:54,429 Speaker 2: and we're best friends online, it's so much more brutal 544 00:24:54,429 --> 00:24:55,229 Speaker 2: behind the scenes. 545 00:24:55,749 --> 00:24:59,309 Speaker 1: My favorite character in the whole show was I should 546 00:24:59,949 --> 00:25:03,269 Speaker 1: yeah now, oh my god. I thought she was like perfect. 547 00:25:03,749 --> 00:25:07,229 Speaker 1: I loved how she was acting as like the audience, 548 00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:10,109 Speaker 1: I guess the answer for the audience. Whenever we had questions, 549 00:25:10,469 --> 00:25:12,589 Speaker 1: she was like that person would answer it because they 550 00:25:12,709 --> 00:25:15,269 Speaker 1: used her in the different time slots right like right 551 00:25:15,269 --> 00:25:18,189 Speaker 1: from the beginning to present day where she's talking to 552 00:25:18,389 --> 00:25:21,429 Speaker 1: the journalist to like where she got swept away with 553 00:25:21,589 --> 00:25:24,829 Speaker 1: all of Belle's lies, but also being best friends with Miller. 554 00:25:25,309 --> 00:25:27,949 Speaker 1: And I think that she was a character that was 555 00:25:28,069 --> 00:25:32,469 Speaker 1: just kind of so angry that she also fell for it. Yeah, 556 00:25:32,469 --> 00:25:34,029 Speaker 1: and then she I felt like she had so much 557 00:25:34,109 --> 00:25:37,469 Speaker 1: weight on a chest for feeling guilty of Like I 558 00:25:37,509 --> 00:25:39,869 Speaker 1: felt like she felt guilty for her friend's death because 559 00:25:39,909 --> 00:25:42,909 Speaker 1: she just like left her to kind of fend for 560 00:25:42,949 --> 00:25:46,469 Speaker 1: herself with her juices and went on to support Belle, 561 00:25:46,509 --> 00:25:49,869 Speaker 1: who was at that time the more successful influencer. And 562 00:25:49,909 --> 00:25:52,909 Speaker 1: I think her portrayal of herself was so well and 563 00:25:52,949 --> 00:25:56,149 Speaker 1: how she navigated those friendships, because that would suck, Like 564 00:25:56,229 --> 00:25:58,909 Speaker 1: imagine being like one of the women who was like 565 00:25:58,989 --> 00:26:01,909 Speaker 1: perfectly healthy, who didn't actually have to like rely on 566 00:26:01,949 --> 00:26:04,669 Speaker 1: your life to believe these kind of things, and yet 567 00:26:04,669 --> 00:26:05,669 Speaker 1: you still fall for it. 568 00:26:05,949 --> 00:26:08,669 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, that's a really crazy kind of event. 569 00:26:09,149 --> 00:26:12,309 Speaker 2: So she now Bill Gibson's best friend. Like, that's true. 570 00:26:12,349 --> 00:26:15,869 Speaker 2: The fictionalized part is her relationship with the Miller character. 571 00:26:16,029 --> 00:26:16,389 Speaker 1: Oh okay. 572 00:26:16,429 --> 00:26:18,429 Speaker 2: So it's interesting that Belle and Chanell are the two 573 00:26:18,469 --> 00:26:20,989 Speaker 2: that have kept the names from the real life characters. 574 00:26:21,229 --> 00:26:23,629 Speaker 2: But I think why they've done that is that Bell Gibson, 575 00:26:23,669 --> 00:26:26,189 Speaker 2: everything she's done is on the record. And then Chanelle 576 00:26:26,509 --> 00:26:29,669 Speaker 2: was the main whistleblower who worked with the journalists and 577 00:26:29,709 --> 00:26:31,269 Speaker 2: who let everyone know what was happening. So you can 578 00:26:31,389 --> 00:26:33,629 Speaker 2: use her name in the show because she's on recorders 579 00:26:34,029 --> 00:26:37,189 Speaker 2: as doing this. So she first met Bell Gibson after 580 00:26:37,229 --> 00:26:40,789 Speaker 2: being signed her as an interviewee during our writing internship, 581 00:26:41,149 --> 00:26:43,749 Speaker 2: and they became really close and she worked a lot 582 00:26:43,789 --> 00:26:45,749 Speaker 2: with her. And then when she found out that Bell 583 00:26:45,789 --> 00:26:48,789 Speaker 2: Gibson was lying about her cancer and misleading people, that 584 00:26:48,909 --> 00:26:51,749 Speaker 2: scene where she gives her the opportunity like tell the truth, 585 00:26:51,789 --> 00:26:53,989 Speaker 2: like and tell me right now, and she doesn't happened 586 00:26:53,989 --> 00:26:56,709 Speaker 2: in real life. And when Belle continued to lie to her, 587 00:26:57,029 --> 00:27:00,469 Speaker 2: she made it the crying yeahhh. She made it her 588 00:27:00,549 --> 00:27:03,589 Speaker 2: mission to expose her lies. And it was really her 589 00:27:03,789 --> 00:27:08,469 Speaker 2: testimonial that really made it possible for those initial investigative 590 00:27:08,469 --> 00:27:10,829 Speaker 2: reports to go forward. The other thing that was true 591 00:27:10,869 --> 00:27:12,989 Speaker 2: is that Bell Gibson really did fake that seizure at 592 00:27:12,989 --> 00:27:16,029 Speaker 2: her son's birthday party. Was that true? That's true as well, 593 00:27:16,349 --> 00:27:17,909 Speaker 2: in front of her son, in front of her son 594 00:27:17,949 --> 00:27:20,629 Speaker 2: and everyone for like an extended period of time. And 595 00:27:20,669 --> 00:27:22,669 Speaker 2: that's another reason why a few people were just like 596 00:27:22,749 --> 00:27:24,749 Speaker 2: seeing it in real life. That's when it started to 597 00:27:24,829 --> 00:27:25,789 Speaker 2: kind of put off some warning. 598 00:27:25,789 --> 00:27:27,789 Speaker 1: Bells, Oh my god. 599 00:27:28,109 --> 00:27:31,029 Speaker 2: The stuff with her son I found absolutely brutal to watch. 600 00:27:31,069 --> 00:27:33,109 Speaker 2: I've got to say, I can't stand when kids are involved. 601 00:27:33,109 --> 00:27:35,189 Speaker 2: And that scene where he's looked in his room, which 602 00:27:35,269 --> 00:27:37,709 Speaker 2: is not a proven thing, is like key fictionalized. It 603 00:27:37,749 --> 00:27:39,589 Speaker 2: was just trying to show what happens when a parent 604 00:27:39,669 --> 00:27:41,389 Speaker 2: is and he was sick and stuff, and she takes 605 00:27:41,469 --> 00:27:44,109 Speaker 2: him too an alternative therapist who does the light and 606 00:27:44,109 --> 00:27:47,269 Speaker 2: sound machine, which is what Bell Gibson said, diagnose to cancer. 607 00:27:47,269 --> 00:27:48,469 Speaker 2: When she was found out. 608 00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:52,309 Speaker 1: Oh my, the light and sound machines absolutely sent me 609 00:27:52,349 --> 00:27:55,549 Speaker 1: the ten thousand dollar light in sound machine. What was 610 00:27:55,629 --> 00:27:58,429 Speaker 1: so sad for me and absolutely heartbreaking. Was one of 611 00:27:58,429 --> 00:28:01,309 Speaker 1: the final scenes of the series when she was with 612 00:28:01,429 --> 00:28:05,149 Speaker 1: her son and you just see how much kids pick 613 00:28:05,229 --> 00:28:08,869 Speaker 1: up and how much kids learn, and the generational trauma 614 00:28:08,909 --> 00:28:11,589 Speaker 1: in her family because I'm her mom wasn't a saint either, 615 00:28:11,789 --> 00:28:14,669 Speaker 1: like she had like a very troubled childhood. And her 616 00:28:14,749 --> 00:28:17,469 Speaker 1: mom has publicly spoken about Bell Gibson, like the real 617 00:28:17,469 --> 00:28:19,909 Speaker 1: Bell Gibson, some one has publicly spoken about her and 618 00:28:19,949 --> 00:28:23,149 Speaker 1: how she doesn't agree with anything she did. And that 619 00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:25,789 Speaker 1: scene with her son, how he had like his bandaged 620 00:28:25,949 --> 00:28:28,469 Speaker 1: arm and then he said he broke his hand like 621 00:28:28,549 --> 00:28:31,269 Speaker 1: while he was sleeping. Yeah, and then straight away she 622 00:28:31,349 --> 00:28:34,149 Speaker 1: was like, no, we can't like let this continue, like 623 00:28:34,189 --> 00:28:37,109 Speaker 1: we can't let this craziness that I've been going through 624 00:28:37,229 --> 00:28:40,269 Speaker 1: continue with like your generation and the generation after. But 625 00:28:40,349 --> 00:28:43,109 Speaker 1: that was so sad because I feel like in those moments, 626 00:28:43,109 --> 00:28:45,709 Speaker 1: because he was so young, she probably would have passed on, 627 00:28:45,829 --> 00:28:48,629 Speaker 1: like the seizure at his birthday party. She'd been like, oh, 628 00:28:48,629 --> 00:28:50,589 Speaker 1: he's too young to remember that. He won't remember that, 629 00:28:50,629 --> 00:28:51,909 Speaker 1: and my kids remember everything. 630 00:28:52,029 --> 00:28:55,189 Speaker 2: They pick up everything, which is yeah, just another really 631 00:28:55,229 --> 00:28:59,829 Speaker 2: sobering part of the story. Also, her husband so hot Clive, Yeah, yeah, 632 00:28:59,869 --> 00:29:02,029 Speaker 2: that he was again interesting character again based on a 633 00:29:02,029 --> 00:29:04,789 Speaker 2: real person. Again, his name really was Clive. It's hard 634 00:29:04,789 --> 00:29:07,309 Speaker 2: to sort of tell if they're still together, because it's 635 00:29:07,389 --> 00:29:10,029 Speaker 2: very hard to find any information on Bell Gibson. Now, 636 00:29:10,389 --> 00:29:12,869 Speaker 2: we do know that she never went to prison at 637 00:29:12,869 --> 00:29:14,829 Speaker 2: the time of recording, she hasn't paid back. 638 00:29:14,949 --> 00:29:17,229 Speaker 1: That's the while that she's never gone to prison, I. 639 00:29:17,109 --> 00:29:19,909 Speaker 2: Know, there's so many different like legalities there that make 640 00:29:19,989 --> 00:29:22,469 Speaker 2: that hard. She did join an Ethiopian community, I do 641 00:29:22,549 --> 00:29:25,869 Speaker 2: believe at one stage, and was seen wearing their traditional 642 00:29:25,949 --> 00:29:28,109 Speaker 2: dress and everything, but when the community was asked for 643 00:29:28,109 --> 00:29:30,309 Speaker 2: a statement, they said she wasn't officially part of them. 644 00:29:30,669 --> 00:29:33,709 Speaker 2: I think she's been photographed a few times allegedly she 645 00:29:33,709 --> 00:29:35,469 Speaker 2: has another child. Now it's so hard to say because 646 00:29:35,509 --> 00:29:37,669 Speaker 2: she's not. And also every single news outlet in the 647 00:29:37,709 --> 00:29:39,789 Speaker 2: world right now is trying to find her and contact her, 648 00:29:39,829 --> 00:29:42,589 Speaker 2: and no one's managed to speak to her. But she 649 00:29:42,789 --> 00:29:45,669 Speaker 2: did stay with Clive for a long time after this 650 00:29:45,789 --> 00:29:48,109 Speaker 2: all blew up, and I think seeing his story is 651 00:29:48,109 --> 00:29:51,269 Speaker 2: interesting too, because again I think the show humanizes people 652 00:29:51,269 --> 00:29:53,629 Speaker 2: in such a way that by the time he decides 653 00:29:53,669 --> 00:29:56,549 Speaker 2: to stay with her, like you almost do understand it, yeah, 654 00:29:56,589 --> 00:29:58,789 Speaker 2: which is really annoying, But obviously he's doing it for 655 00:29:58,829 --> 00:30:01,189 Speaker 2: the sun and for the family unit. He has and 656 00:30:01,229 --> 00:30:02,869 Speaker 2: he just feels that he'll go back into the world 657 00:30:02,909 --> 00:30:05,269 Speaker 2: alone and even if the life he has with Bell 658 00:30:05,389 --> 00:30:08,229 Speaker 2: isn't real, it's better than the reality he faces without her. 659 00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:12,869 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so sad. But like they're still living in 660 00:30:12,949 --> 00:30:14,789 Speaker 1: like the mans, Like right at the end, you just 661 00:30:14,829 --> 00:30:17,029 Speaker 1: you still see them living in that match house and 662 00:30:17,109 --> 00:30:19,229 Speaker 1: the mansion, and you hear that sixty minutes is like 663 00:30:19,269 --> 00:30:22,589 Speaker 1: paying her seventy five grand, but that even though that 664 00:30:22,669 --> 00:30:25,789 Speaker 1: poor boy who actually had brain cancer needed sixty. 665 00:30:25,669 --> 00:30:27,149 Speaker 2: It's a real story as well. 666 00:30:27,309 --> 00:30:29,789 Speaker 1: You better give him that money, birl, But. 667 00:30:29,789 --> 00:30:32,549 Speaker 2: She never did. That's another story that's pulled from Obviously, 668 00:30:32,549 --> 00:30:34,349 Speaker 2: there's a lot of families that were in that situation, 669 00:30:34,429 --> 00:30:36,349 Speaker 2: but it's not a real story. Yeah, there's one family 670 00:30:36,349 --> 00:30:38,709 Speaker 2: in particular who were working closely with her at the time. 671 00:30:39,229 --> 00:30:41,269 Speaker 1: Because I remember them from part of the interview. 672 00:30:41,349 --> 00:30:43,629 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So they were part of the interview and 673 00:30:43,669 --> 00:30:45,629 Speaker 2: that's chronicled in the book that the show is based 674 00:30:45,669 --> 00:30:48,109 Speaker 2: on as well. And basically after it happened, mums like, 675 00:30:48,149 --> 00:30:50,669 Speaker 2: I'm absolutely blindsided. I thought this woman was helping me, 676 00:30:50,749 --> 00:30:52,469 Speaker 2: she was raising this money for my son who was 677 00:30:52,509 --> 00:30:54,989 Speaker 2: cancer and then none of the money showed up, and 678 00:30:55,069 --> 00:30:58,469 Speaker 2: I think like maybe nowadays, like people would get up 679 00:30:58,469 --> 00:31:00,509 Speaker 2: a gofund me and get that money back to that person. 680 00:31:00,549 --> 00:31:02,229 Speaker 2: But I think at the time and maybe that did 681 00:31:02,309 --> 00:31:03,909 Speaker 2: happen to an extent, But I also think at the 682 00:31:03,909 --> 00:31:05,789 Speaker 2: time people were just so shocked and angry and didn't 683 00:31:05,829 --> 00:31:08,029 Speaker 2: know what to believe, that it was hard to sort 684 00:31:08,029 --> 00:31:11,469 Speaker 2: of recoup that money from people who had already done donated. Yeah, 685 00:31:11,669 --> 00:31:14,349 Speaker 2: getting onto another really sad point in the show, which 686 00:31:14,509 --> 00:31:16,789 Speaker 2: I know there's so many, there's so many to choose from. 687 00:31:16,829 --> 00:31:18,469 Speaker 2: I mean, you hated hers, maybe you didn't care, But 688 00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:22,389 Speaker 2: I thought Miller's death was done in a really interesting way. 689 00:31:22,549 --> 00:31:24,669 Speaker 2: I also thought her character was built in an interesting 690 00:31:24,669 --> 00:31:27,229 Speaker 2: way that she's such a product of her time, of 691 00:31:27,269 --> 00:31:30,189 Speaker 2: that early two thousands when the show takes place where 692 00:31:30,229 --> 00:31:32,669 Speaker 2: she like loves Cleo, like she's a mad girl. Like 693 00:31:32,709 --> 00:31:36,629 Speaker 2: the clothes she's wearing are all of very of that hair. Yeah, 694 00:31:36,789 --> 00:31:39,789 Speaker 2: she's very obsessed with Sweet Valley High and one of 695 00:31:39,789 --> 00:31:42,069 Speaker 2: the main characters. I was like, that is a perfect 696 00:31:42,229 --> 00:31:43,069 Speaker 2: like amalgamation. 697 00:31:43,189 --> 00:31:45,829 Speaker 1: They're like sitting on the laptop on the rock at 698 00:31:45,829 --> 00:31:48,269 Speaker 1: the beach was so tumble coded, but. 699 00:31:48,229 --> 00:31:50,909 Speaker 2: He was so obsessed exactly. But when you see her 700 00:31:50,989 --> 00:31:52,749 Speaker 2: in that moment, I mean, when she tells her dad 701 00:31:52,789 --> 00:31:54,589 Speaker 2: and unwraps her arm, I mean, that's the most one 702 00:31:54,629 --> 00:31:57,749 Speaker 2: of the most brutal TV scenes I've ever seen, because 703 00:31:57,869 --> 00:31:59,309 Speaker 2: you think that he's going to be angry at her, 704 00:31:59,349 --> 00:32:02,429 Speaker 2: but then he's just obviously devastated. And I thought her 705 00:32:02,469 --> 00:32:05,349 Speaker 2: last blog post, which I was trying to find Jessaine 706 00:32:05,429 --> 00:32:08,349 Speaker 2: Coe's last blog post, and that it's all been taken down. 707 00:32:08,469 --> 00:32:10,989 Speaker 2: So but I do believe that she never wrote the words. 708 00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:13,469 Speaker 2: You know, if I could return to traditional medicine now, 709 00:32:13,789 --> 00:32:15,509 Speaker 2: I would. But again, I think that's part of the 710 00:32:15,549 --> 00:32:19,189 Speaker 2: fictionalized journey of Miller, of her coming out and saying like, 711 00:32:19,549 --> 00:32:23,189 Speaker 2: my final act is just to say I should have 712 00:32:23,229 --> 00:32:25,429 Speaker 2: done this, but this is where I am now. And 713 00:32:25,469 --> 00:32:28,389 Speaker 2: I think it's also like a really powerful moment where 714 00:32:28,429 --> 00:32:31,229 Speaker 2: she closes the laptop because you see all those messages 715 00:32:31,229 --> 00:32:33,349 Speaker 2: flashing up and people are being like, no, I've got 716 00:32:33,349 --> 00:32:35,829 Speaker 2: a cure, I know a healer, I know these. A 717 00:32:35,869 --> 00:32:37,669 Speaker 2: few years ago in her life, she would have jumped 718 00:32:37,709 --> 00:32:40,149 Speaker 2: on all those messages, but she just closes the laptop 719 00:32:40,189 --> 00:32:42,829 Speaker 2: and sits in peace, and we don't actually see her 720 00:32:42,869 --> 00:32:45,749 Speaker 2: pass away, but that idea of watching her close the 721 00:32:45,789 --> 00:32:47,669 Speaker 2: laptop is her death scene in a way. 722 00:32:47,829 --> 00:32:51,589 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think how like people perceived both Bell 723 00:32:51,869 --> 00:32:55,589 Speaker 1: and Jess at the time is evident through Lucy, her 724 00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:59,229 Speaker 1: character who actually has breast cancer and you see her 725 00:32:59,229 --> 00:33:02,829 Speaker 1: go on this journey of believing Belle and believing like 726 00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:06,509 Speaker 1: ultimate medicine to like kind of doing her own thing 727 00:33:06,549 --> 00:33:08,629 Speaker 1: and having like these big fights with the people who 728 00:33:08,749 --> 00:33:11,229 Speaker 1: love her who want her to just get better and 729 00:33:11,269 --> 00:33:14,029 Speaker 1: go the traditional medicine route, and then she just had 730 00:33:14,069 --> 00:33:15,789 Speaker 1: to go on that journey by herself where she did 731 00:33:15,829 --> 00:33:17,149 Speaker 1: like try it for a little bit and then she 732 00:33:17,229 --> 00:33:19,789 Speaker 1: was like, actually no, I want to go back into 733 00:33:19,869 --> 00:33:22,509 Speaker 1: chemo and like do it properly. And I think that 734 00:33:22,589 --> 00:33:24,309 Speaker 1: kind of was like a bit gave me a tiny 735 00:33:24,349 --> 00:33:27,589 Speaker 1: bit of hope that like not everyone's life was destroyed 736 00:33:27,629 --> 00:33:30,669 Speaker 1: by Belle Gibson. Yeah, like in who she Influenced. 737 00:33:30,909 --> 00:33:33,829 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so interesting because that closing montage of how 738 00:33:33,869 --> 00:33:36,509 Speaker 2: the last episode ends has been like a little bit 739 00:33:36,549 --> 00:33:39,669 Speaker 2: polarizing in a way because obviously you could just keep going, 740 00:33:39,749 --> 00:33:42,109 Speaker 2: like obviously where she's found out is an endpoint, but 741 00:33:42,189 --> 00:33:44,389 Speaker 2: the story continued to roll on. So I think from 742 00:33:44,429 --> 00:33:47,589 Speaker 2: a creative perspective, it's interesting to know where to end 743 00:33:47,589 --> 00:33:49,789 Speaker 2: it and not do like, you know, flash forward to 744 00:33:49,869 --> 00:33:51,989 Speaker 2: where she is in twenty twenty five or something like that. 745 00:33:52,189 --> 00:33:54,629 Speaker 2: But in the closing montage, you see like Belle like 746 00:33:54,709 --> 00:33:56,829 Speaker 2: so happy in the sun. She's ex to this swimming 747 00:33:56,829 --> 00:33:59,869 Speaker 2: pool and you see she's with Clive and her son. 748 00:34:00,029 --> 00:34:00,909 Speaker 1: That really annoyed me. 749 00:34:01,069 --> 00:34:02,829 Speaker 2: I know, well, it's meant to annoy you. It's meant to. 750 00:34:02,749 --> 00:34:05,909 Speaker 1: Show like she just ruined everyone's life and now she here, 751 00:34:05,989 --> 00:34:07,949 Speaker 1: she is in her mansion with her seventy five k 752 00:34:08,029 --> 00:34:11,469 Speaker 1: in pocket, just like not even bothered that that interview 753 00:34:11,509 --> 00:34:13,149 Speaker 1: is about to ruin like a reputation. 754 00:34:13,429 --> 00:34:15,229 Speaker 2: That's so interesting because it's meant to annoy you. It's 755 00:34:15,229 --> 00:34:17,269 Speaker 2: meant to make you angry. That's what the creators have said. 756 00:34:17,349 --> 00:34:21,149 Speaker 2: It's meant to make you angry because, as they keep saying, 757 00:34:21,189 --> 00:34:22,949 Speaker 2: the show is not really about Bell Gibson. It's about 758 00:34:22,949 --> 00:34:26,189 Speaker 2: the wellness influence industry and how this is kind of 759 00:34:26,229 --> 00:34:28,589 Speaker 2: this big red flag for how you know, a lot 760 00:34:28,629 --> 00:34:31,029 Speaker 2: of times there's no regulations, you can't trust these people, 761 00:34:31,269 --> 00:34:34,989 Speaker 2: but people looking for hope so much they'll honestly believe everything. 762 00:34:35,229 --> 00:34:37,589 Speaker 2: And then you see Bell Gibson. We know obviously she 763 00:34:37,669 --> 00:34:39,029 Speaker 2: went on to like you know, lose money and all 764 00:34:39,029 --> 00:34:40,749 Speaker 2: this sort of stuff, but in that moment, you see 765 00:34:40,789 --> 00:34:44,789 Speaker 2: her wealthy with her family, haffy, and also completely healthy. 766 00:34:45,109 --> 00:34:49,229 Speaker 2: So she's in this wonderful safe space despite what she's done. 767 00:34:49,389 --> 00:34:52,229 Speaker 2: And then you see how her actions have affected all 768 00:34:52,229 --> 00:34:55,109 Speaker 2: the people around her and how they're worse off because 769 00:34:55,109 --> 00:34:57,389 Speaker 2: they were trapped up in her lives. So you see 770 00:34:57,469 --> 00:34:59,989 Speaker 2: Chanelle who has got justice in a way because she 771 00:35:00,029 --> 00:35:01,829 Speaker 2: wanted to out Bell, but at the end of the day, 772 00:35:01,909 --> 00:35:05,589 Speaker 2: she's still feeling very guilty about not being there for 773 00:35:05,629 --> 00:35:07,109 Speaker 2: her best friend and the choices. 774 00:35:06,829 --> 00:35:09,669 Speaker 1: Her best friend died, plus like the woman who like 775 00:35:09,669 --> 00:35:11,749 Speaker 1: she spent in the house where it's like twenty. 776 00:35:11,509 --> 00:35:13,869 Speaker 2: Four seven exactly, So she's mourning the death of these 777 00:35:13,869 --> 00:35:16,069 Speaker 2: people and feeling like she'll never get that back. You 778 00:35:16,109 --> 00:35:20,029 Speaker 2: see Lucy going back into more traditional cancer treat Remember, 779 00:35:20,029 --> 00:35:21,749 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, she still has cancer, 780 00:35:21,829 --> 00:35:24,349 Speaker 2: and they really leave you hanging on what happens to her. 781 00:35:24,549 --> 00:35:27,069 Speaker 2: And then Miller flashes to her empty house and back 782 00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:29,549 Speaker 2: to her funeral scene, and so you're just left with 783 00:35:29,589 --> 00:35:33,669 Speaker 2: this this moment that her dad by himself. So every 784 00:35:33,669 --> 00:35:35,869 Speaker 2: other story, I mean, the series is meant to be 785 00:35:35,869 --> 00:35:38,549 Speaker 2: this big takedown of Bell Gibson. Also we thought going in, 786 00:35:38,629 --> 00:35:40,789 Speaker 2: but what it really is is showing how at the 787 00:35:40,829 --> 00:35:42,469 Speaker 2: end of the day she can come out a little 788 00:35:42,469 --> 00:35:45,349 Speaker 2: bit on top and every single person around her has 789 00:35:45,389 --> 00:35:49,149 Speaker 2: been touched by death or ill health or being let down. 790 00:35:49,269 --> 00:35:52,229 Speaker 2: So ah, I guess it goes to show like I 791 00:35:52,229 --> 00:35:53,269 Speaker 2: don't know, it's while that. 792 00:35:53,349 --> 00:35:56,389 Speaker 1: It's like we talked about such sad themes throughout the show, 793 00:35:56,429 --> 00:35:58,509 Speaker 1: but it wasn't a sad show. Yeah, Like it was 794 00:35:58,589 --> 00:36:01,989 Speaker 1: quite fast paced and like upbeats because every time I 795 00:36:02,029 --> 00:36:04,149 Speaker 1: recommended it to someone, after I told them, no, it's 796 00:36:04,149 --> 00:36:07,909 Speaker 1: not mel Gibson Gibson, they were all like, oh, and 797 00:36:07,949 --> 00:36:09,829 Speaker 1: I'm like, no, it's not like that, Like we're not 798 00:36:09,869 --> 00:36:12,469 Speaker 1: a it's like a really sad story of like people 799 00:36:12,509 --> 00:36:15,669 Speaker 1: who like, I mean, some parts are sad, but it's 800 00:36:15,709 --> 00:36:19,229 Speaker 1: actually such a really good explainer. It reminded me of 801 00:36:19,349 --> 00:36:22,349 Speaker 1: the ANNADELVI. Yeah, it reminded me of that kind of format, 802 00:36:22,469 --> 00:36:24,589 Speaker 1: like very fast paced, like you don't really sit in 803 00:36:24,629 --> 00:36:25,749 Speaker 1: your feelings for too long. 804 00:36:25,829 --> 00:36:27,749 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean my only critique at the start that 805 00:36:27,789 --> 00:36:30,629 Speaker 2: there was sometimes too many storylines and too much happening, 806 00:36:30,789 --> 00:36:32,989 Speaker 2: but I felt the end it probably needed that many 807 00:36:33,029 --> 00:36:35,909 Speaker 2: characters and storylines to justify the overall message that they 808 00:36:35,949 --> 00:36:39,709 Speaker 2: were trying to send. Also banging soundtrack with Toxic and Vampire, 809 00:36:40,109 --> 00:36:43,429 Speaker 2: all shows that were like alluding to her behavior, playing 810 00:36:43,469 --> 00:36:47,469 Speaker 2: as like remixes or like songs throughout the show. So yeah, overall, 811 00:36:47,669 --> 00:36:50,549 Speaker 2: very incredible, And I think also the big conversation starter 812 00:36:50,629 --> 00:36:52,149 Speaker 2: has come out of this is that so many people 813 00:36:52,269 --> 00:36:54,869 Speaker 2: keep saying things like, well, thank god, that wouldn't happen now, 814 00:36:55,029 --> 00:36:56,909 Speaker 2: And I just think, have you not been on TikTok 815 00:36:57,029 --> 00:37:00,829 Speaker 2: oh girl? It was absolutely happened now. Like I think 816 00:37:00,829 --> 00:37:03,749 Speaker 2: maybe a lot of traditional book publishers and places like that, 817 00:37:04,069 --> 00:37:06,189 Speaker 2: just because they're so aware of the Bell Gibson story 818 00:37:06,229 --> 00:37:08,469 Speaker 2: and other stories that have happened, might sac check a 819 00:37:08,509 --> 00:37:11,429 Speaker 2: book more so now. But I think it's still very 820 00:37:11,469 --> 00:37:14,069 Speaker 2: possible for someone to build a platform like this because 821 00:37:14,109 --> 00:37:16,109 Speaker 2: people are still looking for hope in that same PJ. 822 00:37:16,229 --> 00:37:17,949 Speaker 1: It's got to work over time for this one. 823 00:37:18,349 --> 00:37:20,629 Speaker 2: Well, Apple Side of Vinegar. It's on Netflix if you 824 00:37:20,669 --> 00:37:22,109 Speaker 2: haven't watched it, but if you come this far and 825 00:37:22,149 --> 00:37:25,389 Speaker 2: you haven't watched it. That's come on, binge the whole thing. 826 00:37:25,869 --> 00:37:26,469 Speaker 2: You can do it. 827 00:37:26,949 --> 00:37:29,309 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to the Spill today. 828 00:37:29,349 --> 00:37:31,189 Speaker 1: If you want more from us, you can always find 829 00:37:31,269 --> 00:37:33,909 Speaker 1: us on our Instagram at the Spill Podcast. We post 830 00:37:34,029 --> 00:37:36,069 Speaker 1: a lot on there, give us a follow, and also 831 00:37:36,149 --> 00:37:38,429 Speaker 1: jump into our dms if there's something that you want 832 00:37:38,469 --> 00:37:41,029 Speaker 1: us to talk about. The Spill is produced by Kimberly 833 00:37:41,069 --> 00:37:43,389 Speaker 1: British with sound production by Scott Stronik and we'll be 834 00:37:43,429 --> 00:37:45,749 Speaker 1: back here in your podcast feed at three pm on Monday. 835 00:37:45,949 --> 00:37:49,189 Speaker 2: Bye bye,