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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Guys, have you seen that there's some new Baldwin's show coming?

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Speaker 1: Oh, I'm so excited for that.

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Speaker 4: The reality show.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, did you see that? Bolsher described it as

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Speaker 1: spectacularly upsetting.

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Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, me start everywhere.

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Speaker 3: I am dying to watch because I'm watching a lot

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Speaker 3: of prestige TV and I think I need some Baldwin's reality.

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Speaker 3: But my issue is that I have only just started

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Speaker 3: watching thirty Rock and I met Alec Baldwin in thirty Rocks?

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Speaker 1: Have you been?

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Speaker 5: My friends are horrified because in terms of like.

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Speaker 4: Is what fifteen years old?

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Speaker 1: I have a fun fact. I was on thirty Rock. Stop.

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Speaker 1: This is the fun fact I share whenever I'm asked

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Speaker 1: to show a fun fact. So the one hundredth episode,

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Speaker 1: which you're probably not up to yet.

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Speaker 4: No, you got a long way to go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the one hundredth episode is all about a live

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Speaker 1: taping of the show and the audience gets gassed because

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Speaker 1: there's a gas leak. Yeah. So I was in the

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Speaker 1: audience for it, and we were in the studio for

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Speaker 1: twelve hours. It was freezing cold. I had to fake

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Speaker 1: a off for like about ten of those twelve hours

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Speaker 1: to film like thirty minutes of TV. I could never

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Speaker 1: be on TV.

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Speaker 5: Was it fun?

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Speaker 1: No? But the show is amazing and it has this

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Speaker 1: amazing line from Liz Lemon, which is that better be

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Speaker 1: important Jack. I was in the middle of bidding on

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Speaker 1: a bag of bras on eBay.

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Speaker 2: The problem for you is, once you've watched thirty Rock,

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Speaker 2: you feel differently about Alec Bordman because he's so good

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Speaker 2: on that show, and he's so kind of self deprecating

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Speaker 2: on that show in a way, and I think he's.

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Speaker 5: Also a brilliant actor. He's very good.

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Speaker 3: Apparently he has.

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Speaker 1: Been eight Children and five.

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Speaker 3: Pets, Yes, and he's been rated as that character in

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Speaker 3: particular is one of the best, I say, one of

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Speaker 3: the best ever made. Just nails it.

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Speaker 5: So I'm living in that world.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to MoMA Mia out Loud. It's all

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the twenty sixth

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Speaker 2: of February, and I'm Holly Wainwright.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens, and today we have Amelia Leicester filling

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Speaker 3: in for.

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Speaker 2: Me Hello on the show? Does it matter who a

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Speaker 2: politician is married to? From Duttna and Albow to de

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Speaker 2: facto US President Elon Musk, what your private life says

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Speaker 2: about you? Also, The White Lotus has given us a

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Speaker 2: new iconic female friendship group. Why Laurie, Jacqueline and Kate's

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Speaker 2: glossy toxic dynamic is cringingly familiar? And with the end

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Speaker 2: of Award season in sight, what do we really mean

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Speaker 2: when we say we're worried about the size of the

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Speaker 2: women on the Hollywood Red Carpet? But first, I'm hijacking me.

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Speaker 2: It's not here, so I'm breaking the rules.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: I need to talk about my favorite Timothy Salam Yes,

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Speaker 2: I saw snippets of the speech.

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Speaker 5: So I love loved.

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Speaker 2: He just won a SAG screen out to his Guild

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Speaker 2: Award for a Complete Unknown, which I recommended the other

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Speaker 2: week because it's a brilliant movie. Go sit that's by

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Speaker 2: the bye On Monday, it's the Oscars and Timmy And

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Speaker 2: that's what his friends call him, Timmy, Yeah, May and

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Speaker 2: Kylie Jenna, we call him that.

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Speaker 4: He really really really really really.

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Speaker 2: Wants an Oscar and he has been campaigning so hot

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Speaker 2: he has been doing every YouTube interview, He's been dancing

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Speaker 2: on the internet like he is so campaigning. And we

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Speaker 2: especially know this because he told us in a refreshingly

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Speaker 2: bald faced display of ambition. This is what he said

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Speaker 2: in his sax ACCEPTIONCE speech.

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Speaker 6: I'm deeply grateful to them. And lastly, I can't downplay

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Speaker 6: the significance of this award because it means the most

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Speaker 6: to me. And I know we're in a subjective business,

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Speaker 6: but the truth is, I'm really in pursuit of greatness.

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Speaker 6: I know people don't usually talk like that, but I

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Speaker 6: want to be one of the greats. I'm inspired by

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Speaker 6: the greats. I'm inspired by the greats here tonight. I'm

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Speaker 6: as inspired by Daniel day Lewis, Marlon Brando, and Viola

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Speaker 6: Davis as I am by Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps, and

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Speaker 6: I want to be up there. So I'm deeply grateful

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Speaker 6: to that. This doesn't signify that, but it's a little

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Speaker 6: more fuel, it's a little more animal to keep going.

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Speaker 6: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 4: Timothy is ambitious.

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Speaker 1: Do we love it. I'm so glad you raised this,

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Speaker 1: hollidod I do everything you recommend, and I went to

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Speaker 1: see a complete unknown last night loved it. I am

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Speaker 1: now a card carrying member of Club Charllomade as the

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Speaker 1: Timmy fans and Noan, he's likely to become the youngest

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Speaker 1: ever Best Actor winner. He's twenty nine. Adrian Brody won

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Speaker 1: previously at twenty nine, but he was a slightly older

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Speaker 1: twenty nine. And when you compare his speech at the

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Speaker 1: SAgs to Kieran Colkin, did you catch Kieran Colkin? No?

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Speaker 5: What did he say?

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Speaker 1: He was way too cool for school. He complained about

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Speaker 1: how heavy the award was and sort of made jokes

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Speaker 1: about it being like too much for him to carry.

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Speaker 1: I'm here for the enthusiasm and for the aspirations to greatness.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he plays a genius. He plays Bob Dylan,

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Speaker 1: a genius and a complete unknown, and now he's putting

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Speaker 1: forward that he wants to be a kind of genius

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Speaker 1: in acting.

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Speaker 5: I think there's something endearing too.

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Speaker 3: He's a young guy, and we see him as young

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Speaker 3: because he feels like he's been famous for a while.

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Speaker 1: Baby face, Yes he does, he does.

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Speaker 3: But there's something endearing about having a young person say

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Speaker 3: these are my goals and this is what I want.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if it would feel different if it was

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Speaker 3: a forty or a fifty year old going I desperately

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Speaker 3: want my award. But Timothy, I just kind of went,

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Speaker 3: I do think you're a brilliant actor. I think you've

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Speaker 3: done some amazing roles. And I think he'll juster.

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Speaker 1: Do we think he'll get I'm a little worried about

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Speaker 1: the Jena factor. Is he going to take Carly Jenner

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Speaker 1: to the awards?

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Speaker 2: This is the problem. This is the problem with Timothy.

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Speaker 2: We've discussed it about that. It is my Roman empire.

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Speaker 2: Is that we were joking the other day about who's

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Speaker 2: cool and who's not. Timothy Chalamay should be really really cool, right,

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Speaker 2: height of cool. But two things that stop him from

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Speaker 2: being cool. Not that that matters obviously, whether or not

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Speaker 2: you're cool is a cool people don't say they really

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Speaker 2: want things. Cool people are like, oh, I don't know

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Speaker 2: how this happened, you know. And also, cool people don't

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Speaker 2: date Kardashians. That's just a very strict rule that you

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Speaker 2: can't go pass. Some people think that the Kylie Jenna

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Speaker 2: factor might actually hurt his chances, which I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Is that why he took his mum to the SAgs.

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Speaker 2: Do we think possibly? Leonardo DiCaprio always takes his mum

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Speaker 2: to things. I think he has only broken that rule

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Speaker 2: once or twice because I think he's like, I don't

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Speaker 2: want the fact that I only date twenty two year.

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Speaker 4: Old models to interfere with Mike.

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Speaker 2: He will date image twenty six year old Marie Amelia. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: he doesn't want that to affect his image as a

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Speaker 2: serious actor. And Shalama clearly is in love and he

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Speaker 2: doesn't care if it. Dent's his thing with it as

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Speaker 2: a serious act all but just word to the wise, timy,

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Speaker 2: it does. I'm sorry it does. We're about to talk

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Speaker 2: about whether it matters who you're married to. I just think,

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Speaker 2: if you really want the oscar on Monday, maybe get

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Speaker 2: quick with that dumb by text.

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Speaker 4: Just love my schalam maze so much.

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Speaker 1: Anthony Albanizi is talking about his wedding plans, and Peter

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Speaker 1: Dutton has confessed he met his wife after drinking twenty

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Speaker 1: vodka Red Bull.

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Speaker 4: Twenty Has he alive? Holy schmokes, that's a lot.

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Speaker 1: These confessions can mean only one thing. There is an

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Speaker 1: election brewing. We don't have a date yet, but as

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Speaker 1: Jacquelin Mailey wrote in the Herald and Age newspapers over

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Speaker 1: the weekend, there is no sure a sign of a

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Speaker 1: looming pole than the rash of personal soft touch interviews.

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Speaker 1: So a soft touch interview basically refers to the kind

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Speaker 1: of interview that involves a politician's partner, often their children,

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Speaker 1: and the conventional wisdom is that these figures being around

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Speaker 1: the politician helped to soften his image, and yes, it

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Speaker 1: is normally a hymn. Maley wrote that she found this

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Speaker 1: factor pressing this idea that men still need women to

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Speaker 1: humanize them as politicians, and she also argues that these

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Speaker 1: interviews are a bit of a distraction. And Albanizi did

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Speaker 1: come into some criticism from his own party for this

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Speaker 1: Women's Weekly interview he gave with his fiancee, Jody Hayden.

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Speaker 1: One labor backbencher told the Financial Review that the timing

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Speaker 1: of the interview just as the Reserve Bank announced it

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Speaker 1: was dropping interest rates was really bad and it made

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Speaker 1: the Prime Minister look out of touch. But here I

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Speaker 1: am with a hot take for you, which is that

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Speaker 1: I happen to disagree with these criticisms. I love hearing

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Speaker 1: about politicians partners, And the reason is that I think

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Speaker 1: it's a valid way of assessing them and of figuring

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Speaker 1: out how they make this sci decisions. Because who's someone

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Speaker 1: is married to, or who someone spends their time with,

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Speaker 1: it shows us a lot about what they value and

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Speaker 1: what they think is important and what they care about

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Speaker 1: in others. So I will always defend my interest in politicians' partners.

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Speaker 1: But what do you think, Jesse.

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Speaker 3: Don't you think that might be the case if it

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Speaker 3: was an entirely manufactured like do you reckon that we're

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Speaker 3: really getting an insight into their relationship Tony red Bull Vodkas.

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Speaker 1: I don't think people would.

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Speaker 2: Make that up.

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Speaker 3: But that's a selective detail. And this is I totally

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Speaker 3: agreed with the criticism about Anthony Albanesi and the interest

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Speaker 3: rate cuts because that came out cost of living crisis

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Speaker 3: for the election campaign. That's going to be a really

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Speaker 3: important point. That just seemed like such a missed opportunity

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Speaker 3: if you have one message that needed to be the

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Speaker 3: message that day. And I actually don't think it was

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Speaker 3: totally Albaneze's fault because he did that interview before.

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Speaker 1: And it was actually for International Women's Day, yes.

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Speaker 3: And then it came out at the same time, and

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Speaker 3: I think that there was a headline that was telling

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Speaker 3: me what role to Toe the dog would be playing

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Speaker 3: in the wedding, and I thought, m, yeah, that's not

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Speaker 3: really What does that actually tell me as a voter?

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Speaker 3: Isn't a distraction? And then when I was looking at

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Speaker 3: the Women's Weekly feature, you know, you're looking at the

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Speaker 3: photo shoot and they've sat down and done this interview,

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Speaker 3: and there's the cynical side of me that goes.

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Speaker 1: What a waste time?

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Speaker 3: Like, how about policy? And tell us what we're voting for?

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Speaker 3: And the performing of personality? Talking about the performing of

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Speaker 3: personality takes a lot of work.

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Speaker 4: Jesse, what role is Toto the dog playing wedding? Can

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Speaker 4: you tell her?

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Speaker 5: I didn't click.

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Speaker 2: I think it's like we're going to hear a lot

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Speaker 2: about policy when this election is actually announced, because although

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Speaker 2: it feels like we're living in an election campaign, it

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Speaker 2: hasn't actually been announced yet. If politicians only stand there

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Speaker 2: and talk to you about policy and about what people

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Speaker 2: generally think of as boring facts and this is what

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do and this they get accused of

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Speaker 2: being in personal robots, right if they go too far,

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Speaker 2: the other way. Remember Scott Morrison and the ukulele round

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Speaker 2: the barbecue table on sixty minutes. That really didn't go

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Speaker 2: well for him because people were like, I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: if we can't trust him with the melody of April

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Speaker 2: Son and Cuba, if we can trust him with the economy.

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Speaker 2: I think that what's interesting, particularly about these two is

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Speaker 2: that revealing a bit about their personal lives makes them

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Speaker 2: more relatable and interesting in a genuine way, because actually

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Speaker 2: they've both got, in the terms of political history of Australia,

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Speaker 2: quite interesting personal lives. Backstory wise, Albo was only our

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Speaker 2: third unmarried prime minister ever after I think McEwan in

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Speaker 2: the sixties, and he was a widower and of course

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Speaker 2: Julia Gillard right, So the fact that Albo is not

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Speaker 2: married when he was first campaigning was seen as a

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Speaker 2: bit like, oh, you know, because traditionally we like to go,

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Speaker 2: we like our politicians to be in steady, traditional relationships.

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Speaker 2: It makes me think he's a steady traditional guy. The

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Speaker 2: fact that he's got engaged while he's in office kind

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Speaker 2: of interesting. Like just cinder Ar Dun when she had

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Speaker 2: a baby in office. It's kind of interesting. Now people

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Speaker 2: are like Okay, So if Albo wins again and he

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Speaker 2: and Jody are getting married, I want to know more

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Speaker 2: about her and more about this, and I actually think

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Speaker 2: that's kind of valid. And Dutton has been married before,

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Speaker 2: He's got a child from a previous relationship, so again,

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Speaker 2: his story isn't that linear and straightforward, And I actually

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Speaker 2: think that's interesting, gives some depth and people can go, oh,

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Speaker 2: I can kind of relate to that. You know, my

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Speaker 2: relationship isn't that straightforward. I'm divorced or I'm building step

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Speaker 2: family or whatever. So I think it's interesting. I agree

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Speaker 2: with you that it's fluffy and inauthentic. That's also a

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Speaker 2: trap though, right, because remember if we look over to America,

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Speaker 2: how Kamala Harris, who had to establish who she was

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Speaker 2: in inverted commas In this short period of time, people

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Speaker 2: just kept saying over and over again, I.

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Speaker 4: Don't know who she is.

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Speaker 2: I don't know who she is, and they want to

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Speaker 2: be able to scratch the surface, and how do you

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Speaker 2: do that in an authentic way?

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Speaker 1: Well, and I also think there's a way in which

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Speaker 1: the olden days, when we refuse to look at politicians'

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Speaker 1: private lives, encouraged this kind of default nuclear heterosexual family

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Speaker 1: feedback loop because we sort of knew that all these

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Speaker 1: male politicians had wives and children, and therefore, because they

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Speaker 1: all had the same story, essentially we didn't need to

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Speaker 1: hear it. But now now that we accept that politicians

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Speaker 1: are real people who hopefully come from diverse backgrounds and

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Speaker 1: have done all sorts of things before coming to politics,

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Speaker 1: we accept that they might have a more complicated story

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Speaker 1: and we naturally want to hear about it.

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Speaker 3: But isn't this how we get to a point where,

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Speaker 3: for example, I remember when there was a big discussion

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Speaker 3: about sexism in politics, Scott Morrison stands there and says,

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Speaker 3: I have daughters, Like I think that we can go

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Speaker 3: too far into I'm going to all my sell.

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Speaker 1: Or use my yeah, and now we don't have daughters.

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Speaker 1: For instance, to bring back Kamala Harris, she doesn't have children.

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Speaker 1: And that was also someone the rights said, well, how

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Speaker 1: can she really care about the future of this country?

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Speaker 1: She doesn't have children.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's an important point because it gets

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Speaker 3: used differently against women. So while where in the presspers

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Speaker 3: of an election campaign, where as you say, two men

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Speaker 3: have had maybe not the most traditional trajectories in terms

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Speaker 3: of marriage and children. I don't think we would be

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Speaker 3: nearly as forgiving if either of them were women.

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Speaker 2: Well no, and on that point, and we've got Amelia here,

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Speaker 2: so I'm exploiting that fact. Riddle me this, Amelia. If

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Speaker 2: we look over to America in this regard right, broadly speaking,

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Speaker 2: the right, the MAGA right, well not necessarily the Maga right,

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Speaker 2: but the traditional Republican right, very big on family values, right,

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Speaker 2: very big on it. They think that one of the

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Speaker 2: things that's really gone wrong is we're way too accepting

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Speaker 2: of different kinds of families, and these pesky single women

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Speaker 2: without children, the cat ladies and all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: That's what's gone wrong.

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Speaker 2: That's what they're saying has gone wrong. And yet some

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Speaker 2: of their most prominent poster boys, including Elon Musku appears

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Speaker 2: to be running things with his chainsaw, have very when

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Speaker 2: I just said before like that, dund and Elbow have

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Speaker 2: slightly different stories about their family dynamics. This week, he's

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Speaker 2: embroiled in some kind of paternity situation with a woman

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Speaker 2: who claims that she's the mother of his thirteenth child

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Speaker 2: to four different women. Now, no judgment about that, but

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Speaker 2: it's clear that he is not involved in a lot

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Speaker 2: of these children's lives, except for the one that he

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Speaker 2: likes to roll out as age.

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Speaker 1: Judge him a little bit.

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Speaker 2: I think that's okay, Yes, except for the one he

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Speaker 2: likes to roll out as a prop. And then we

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Speaker 2: know famously he has a daughter he doesn't speak to

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Speaker 2: because she is trans. And she said, this week, I

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Speaker 2: keep finding out I've got new siblings on the internet.

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Speaker 2: There's been six now, six different siblings that she's found

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Speaker 2: out about on the internet. Riddle me this then, So

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Speaker 2: how the conservative right family values people like this is

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Speaker 2: very cha on it.

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Speaker 1: It's such a good question, Holly, and I was musing

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Speaker 1: on it as you were speaking. And it's almost as

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Speaker 1: though the left and the right have changed sides, because

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Speaker 1: you think back to the nineties and Bill Clinton's affair

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Speaker 1: with Monica Lewinsky, and it was the right, it was

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Speaker 1: the Republicans who said, this betrays a lack of family values.

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Speaker 1: We can't trust him in the White House when he's

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Speaker 1: doing this in his private life. And it was the

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Speaker 1: left who said, oh, forget about it, it was consensual.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing to see him. Move along. Now. What's interesting

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Speaker 1: is that the American left has now revised that opinion

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Speaker 1: on the Lewinsky situation. They point to the power and

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Speaker 1: balance between the president and an intern as saying that

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Speaker 1: it could never be a fully consensual dynamic between the

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Speaker 1: two of them. And it's the right now who have

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Speaker 1: decided that everyone's private lives don't matter in politics. And

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Speaker 1: I was trying to think, why did that happen and

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Speaker 1: when did it happen? And I think you can trace

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Speaker 1: it to the election of America's first black president. And

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Speaker 1: that was when the right really lost their minds and

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Speaker 1: decided that in order to gain back power, they had

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Speaker 1: to prioritize political power above everything else in a way

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Speaker 1: they never had before. Josh W. Bush lots of criticisms

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Speaker 1: of him, lots of unnecessary wars, but largely played within

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Speaker 1: the rules and the norms that had been set through

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Speaker 1: many decades of American political life. But come Obama, that's

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Speaker 1: when the Republicans decided they weren't going to play by

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Speaker 1: the rules anymore. They weren't going to play by the

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Speaker 1: rules in politics, and they were going to discard the

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Speaker 1: moralistic rules that they had in private. You just have

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Speaker 1: to look at the fact that the Christian right in

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Speaker 1: the US has thrown their lot behind Donald Trump, a

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Speaker 1: man who has we've talked about many times, is not

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Speaker 1: exactly opposed to boy for Family values, because all they

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Speaker 1: want is a nationwide abortion man, and they've decided that

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter who gets them there or what they

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Speaker 1: do in their private life. The goal is the important thing,

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Speaker 1: the endpoint.

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Speaker 3: So I wonder if we've over emphasized if there's a

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Speaker 3: bit of a myth about how much people actually care

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Speaker 3: about who you are and what your story is. For

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Speaker 3: Albo and Dutton, I do think that there are features

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Speaker 3: of their story that deeply matter. I think that Alberizi,

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Speaker 3: when he talks about his narrative and growing up in

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Speaker 3: council housing, that is part of who he is and

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Speaker 3: how he projects his values. For Peter Dutton, I think

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Speaker 3: being a police officer for a decade that matters and

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Speaker 3: it's relevant. But do I need to know that Albernesi

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Speaker 3: likes to watch Netflix with Jodie.

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Speaker 4: I'd love it, to be honest, Those kind of details

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Speaker 4: tell me a lot about you.

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Speaker 5: What does it tell you?

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Speaker 4: It tells me what kind of person you.

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Speaker 5: Are, which you want?

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I think you're being disingenuous. How can you really say

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Speaker 2: that it doesn't matter how you don't care at all

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Speaker 2: how anyone lives their life, what they like, what they watch,

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Speaker 2: what they don't want to, who they live with, who

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Speaker 2: their friends are, what they like to eat for dinner.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't matter at all.

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Speaker 5: Of course, this is so far.

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Speaker 2: I think about when you're creating a character and all

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Speaker 2: the little things that you pull in to tell a

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Speaker 2: story about that person. This is what they're doing, is

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Speaker 2: they're telling you a story about them, and some of

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Speaker 2: it's authentic, like the fact that he is the uncoolest

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Speaker 2: DJ you've ever seen. I don't think he'd make that

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Speaker 2: shit up, right. And the thing about Dutton is his

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Speaker 2: job is different. He has to convince people, because there

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Speaker 2: is a narrative out there about him that he is

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Speaker 2: some kind of robot. He has to convince people that

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Speaker 2: he is a human being. Whereas the elbows maybe a

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Speaker 2: little bit too.

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Speaker 3: As it's going to dictate how they run a country.

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Speaker 2: I'm a citizen, but we're also going to know that right,

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Speaker 2: Like the policy is out there, but people glaze over

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Speaker 2: when you talk about policy. You want to find it

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Speaker 2: go to that they will be talking about that endlessly.

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Speaker 2: They also have to color in some of the gaps.

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Speaker 3: I worry that this is like the celebrification of politics

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Speaker 3: and it's.

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Speaker 4: Been there forever.

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Speaker 2: Like I think that every Australian Prime minister has been

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Speaker 2: in the weekly if they were invited with their wife,

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Speaker 2: with their kids, and personally I find it more refreshing

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Speaker 2: that now instead of on the stage, it's just cookie cutter, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is my wife, we've been married since

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Speaker 2: we were twenty. Here are my beautiful children. Now we're

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Speaker 2: seeing some different versions.

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Speaker 1: Of that, and it is a trap Jersey I agree

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Speaker 1: that way, but there's a trap the other way. You

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Speaker 1: see what's happening in the US now where you do

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Speaker 1: have one side that has decided it doesn't matter what

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Speaker 1: politicians are like as people. And just to bring up

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Speaker 1: one example, Pete Hegseth, who was in charge of the

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Speaker 1: Department of Defense. He had his confirmation hearings. Recently his

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Speaker 1: own mother sent him an email that leaked saying that

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Speaker 1: he was an abuser of women. He has acknowledged a

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Speaker 1: drinking problem and has been seen in Washington, DC drinking

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Speaker 1: region and tonics for breakfast, which is two more and

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Speaker 1: i'd have a breakfast, and he has what some have

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Speaker 1: called the white supremacist tattoo, but apparently relevant now.

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Speaker 4: This is all about character.

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Speaker 3: Right in a moment? Is it okay to bitch about

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Speaker 3: your friends? We've got some thoughts about the trio friendship

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Speaker 3: in the latest season of The White Lotus.

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Speaker 2: Whether or not you're watching The White Loatus, you can't

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Speaker 2: look at a screen this week without seeing the faces

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Speaker 2: of three female friends. They are Laurie, Jacqueline, and Kate,

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Speaker 2: and they all swan into reception on episode one of

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Speaker 2: the very popular, very successful Prestige TV show in their

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Speaker 2: designer caftans in a cloud of you look fabulous and

433
00:19:48,502 --> 00:19:52,782
Speaker 2: with big cocktail energy. Jacqueline is a Hollywood actress. She's

434
00:19:52,821 --> 00:19:55,942
Speaker 2: married to a hot, younger man. Kate's career is unclear,

435
00:19:55,942 --> 00:19:58,302
Speaker 2: but she is married to a high profile rich man

436
00:19:58,341 --> 00:20:01,061
Speaker 2: in Austin, Texas. And Laurie is a lawyer and a

437
00:20:01,061 --> 00:20:03,742
Speaker 2: single mum who lives in New York. They're all wealthy

438
00:20:03,782 --> 00:20:07,302
Speaker 2: and conventionally beautiful, although Jacqueline is clearly paying for everything,

439
00:20:07,542 --> 00:20:10,901
Speaker 2: and there's a possibility that Laurie hasn't had botox.

440
00:20:12,061 --> 00:20:13,341
Speaker 4: Don't tell anyone.

441
00:20:14,101 --> 00:20:16,461
Speaker 2: If you're super keen to dive into white lotus. We

442
00:20:16,462 --> 00:20:18,902
Speaker 2: did do a whole episode about that for subscribers yesterday,

443
00:20:19,061 --> 00:20:21,941
Speaker 2: but even if you've never seen it, what these three

444
00:20:22,061 --> 00:20:26,381
Speaker 2: characters have sparked is a conversation about female friendships. Because

445
00:20:26,422 --> 00:20:29,262
Speaker 2: what's quickly revealed, particularly in the first few minutes of

446
00:20:29,302 --> 00:20:32,061
Speaker 2: episode two, is that these old old friends, who apparently

447
00:20:32,061 --> 00:20:33,542
Speaker 2: have all known each other since they were nine and

448
00:20:33,542 --> 00:20:35,621
Speaker 2: they went to school together, are on a girl's trip,

449
00:20:35,742 --> 00:20:37,742
Speaker 2: and who hasn't been on one of those? And they

450
00:20:37,742 --> 00:20:41,141
Speaker 2: are not quite the mutual cheerleaders they appear. Here's a

451
00:20:41,182 --> 00:20:43,581
Speaker 2: little bit of their girl talk.

452
00:20:44,262 --> 00:20:52,302
Speaker 1: I know you said, she agreed, Wow, she does, but

453
00:20:52,422 --> 00:20:57,022
Speaker 1: she also looks tired. Don't you think a little down?

454
00:20:57,542 --> 00:21:02,302
Speaker 1: He's a drinking She did drink like a whole bottle tonight.

455
00:21:05,061 --> 00:21:07,461
Speaker 1: I just love her so much.

456
00:21:08,262 --> 00:21:10,742
Speaker 2: Welcome to the birth of a one thousand memes hot

457
00:21:10,782 --> 00:21:15,222
Speaker 2: takes about toxic female friendships and ponderings about whether female friendship,

458
00:21:15,222 --> 00:21:18,502
Speaker 2: which is so exalted in our culture, is really just

459
00:21:18,542 --> 00:21:22,302
Speaker 2: a passive, aggressive smoke screen hiding all our insecurities. Jesse,

460
00:21:23,101 --> 00:21:25,742
Speaker 2: have you been Kate Jacqueline Laurie?

461
00:21:25,982 --> 00:21:28,942
Speaker 3: I absolutely have, and I was watching this the other

462
00:21:29,061 --> 00:21:33,022
Speaker 3: night with Luca, who paused it and said, this is

463
00:21:33,061 --> 00:21:35,942
Speaker 3: what I struggle with when it comes to female friendship

464
00:21:36,101 --> 00:21:40,101
Speaker 3: and interesting, just to be like clear, Lucas spends a

465
00:21:40,141 --> 00:21:42,381
Speaker 3: lot of time with women, like he works in a

466
00:21:42,462 --> 00:21:45,141
Speaker 3: female office, and you know, a lot of our friends

467
00:21:45,141 --> 00:21:48,941
Speaker 3: and everything of women, so he has definitely seen signs

468
00:21:48,942 --> 00:21:49,702
Speaker 3: of this behavior.

469
00:21:49,861 --> 00:21:50,542
Speaker 5: But we were.

470
00:21:50,381 --> 00:21:52,861
Speaker 3: Talking about it and I said, they are not my

471
00:21:52,942 --> 00:21:56,061
Speaker 3: friendships anymore, Like, I totally recognize it. That's why I

472
00:21:56,061 --> 00:21:58,782
Speaker 3: think that it's brilliant. I have been part of it.

473
00:21:59,182 --> 00:22:02,102
Speaker 3: I have had that feeling of you can nearly hear

474
00:22:02,182 --> 00:22:04,542
Speaker 3: what they're saying about you as you leave the room,

475
00:22:04,581 --> 00:22:10,821
Speaker 3: of someone attempting intimacy with you by bitching about outsider, Like,

476
00:22:11,341 --> 00:22:14,941
Speaker 3: totally recognize that. But I don't think that this is

477
00:22:14,982 --> 00:22:18,302
Speaker 3: some universal truth about female friendships. I think it's a

478
00:22:18,341 --> 00:22:21,502
Speaker 3: specific type. But it was funny because I was speaking

479
00:22:21,502 --> 00:22:23,981
Speaker 3: to my mum about it this morning. I said, you know,

480
00:22:24,542 --> 00:22:27,142
Speaker 3: I don't recognize it as much anymore, and Mum said, oh, no,

481
00:22:27,182 --> 00:22:28,621
Speaker 3: they're not my friendships either.

482
00:22:28,901 --> 00:22:29,861
Speaker 5: Except for Suzanne.

483
00:22:29,982 --> 00:22:31,101
Speaker 1: You know what Suzanne's like.

484
00:22:31,581 --> 00:22:33,782
Speaker 5: And I was like, it's a little bit of.

485
00:22:34,222 --> 00:22:38,742
Speaker 1: What I'm rolling my eyes at you so hard. All

486
00:22:38,861 --> 00:22:40,742
Speaker 1: female friendships are like this.

487
00:22:40,861 --> 00:22:45,942
Speaker 3: Really absolutely I worry about and I was like, maybe

488
00:22:45,982 --> 00:22:50,821
Speaker 3: I'm just the lorry. It's just not like and I'm

489
00:22:50,861 --> 00:22:52,622
Speaker 3: just totally naive, not knowing.

490
00:22:52,381 --> 00:22:57,141
Speaker 1: Susan, I'm Japan exactly. We should mention that you changed

491
00:22:57,141 --> 00:23:02,022
Speaker 1: the name. Surely you've been in that group chat where

492
00:23:02,182 --> 00:23:05,021
Speaker 1: you've said something and then there's a little bit of

493
00:23:05,101 --> 00:23:08,022
Speaker 1: silence in the group chat and you can practically hear

494
00:23:08,302 --> 00:23:10,941
Speaker 1: everyone else going on to the other group chat to

495
00:23:11,022 --> 00:23:13,462
Speaker 1: talk about you and the insane thing you just said.

496
00:23:13,621 --> 00:23:16,341
Speaker 1: Maybe that's just me. No, no, no, absolutely, And I think

497
00:23:16,381 --> 00:23:20,262
Speaker 1: I'm here to kind of defend this instinct amongst women,

498
00:23:20,542 --> 00:23:22,742
Speaker 1: which seems like a tall order, but hear me out.

499
00:23:22,782 --> 00:23:25,542
Speaker 1: I think what we're essentially talking about is gossip. And

500
00:23:25,621 --> 00:23:29,302
Speaker 1: you're essentially saying that women don't gossip about their friends

501
00:23:29,341 --> 00:23:32,262
Speaker 1: if they're mature or nice, which I don't think is true.

502
00:23:32,381 --> 00:23:34,381
Speaker 3: I think they gossip, but I think that what is

503
00:23:34,462 --> 00:23:36,581
Speaker 3: underlying this gossip is a very specific thing.

504
00:23:36,621 --> 00:23:37,381
Speaker 5: But continue.

505
00:23:37,422 --> 00:23:40,742
Speaker 1: I think that the reason why women gossip is two reasons.

506
00:23:40,982 --> 00:23:44,901
Speaker 1: The first is that women have to put up with

507
00:23:45,101 --> 00:23:48,302
Speaker 1: maintaining relationships much more than men do. To put it

508
00:23:48,341 --> 00:23:52,141
Speaker 1: another way, maintaining friendships and relationships is more important to

509
00:23:52,262 --> 00:23:53,582
Speaker 1: a lot of women than it is to a lot

510
00:23:53,581 --> 00:23:56,181
Speaker 1: of men. And one way that you can maintain and

511
00:23:56,302 --> 00:24:00,302
Speaker 1: upkeep relationships is by sharing information, particularly information that is

512
00:24:00,341 --> 00:24:02,542
Speaker 1: prized because it is rare, or it is secret or

513
00:24:02,581 --> 00:24:04,861
Speaker 1: not a lot of people know it. That's what gossip is. Essentially,

514
00:24:04,901 --> 00:24:06,901
Speaker 1: it's a way of fast tracking intimacy. So that's the

515
00:24:06,901 --> 00:24:09,141
Speaker 1: first reason why I think women do it. The second

516
00:24:09,182 --> 00:24:11,222
Speaker 1: reason why I think women do it is because information

517
00:24:11,422 --> 00:24:14,221
Speaker 1: for women can be really valuable, and of course it

518
00:24:14,262 --> 00:24:16,022
Speaker 1: can be for men too. But let me give you

519
00:24:16,061 --> 00:24:22,222
Speaker 1: an example again from Pete. Hegseth because he isn't actually

520
00:24:22,422 --> 00:24:24,901
Speaker 1: except the opposite of Ye. Yeah, I know. His sister

521
00:24:24,942 --> 00:24:28,381
Speaker 1: in law came out and said that she knew a

522
00:24:28,422 --> 00:24:31,661
Speaker 1: safe word that his wife had told her. And she

523
00:24:31,782 --> 00:24:33,782
Speaker 1: came out with this because that's a fact, and it

524
00:24:33,901 --> 00:24:37,102
Speaker 1: shows that this woman is in an abusive relationship. Now,

525
00:24:37,182 --> 00:24:39,542
Speaker 1: the way you get to talk about things like this

526
00:24:39,702 --> 00:24:41,581
Speaker 1: is you have to open the floodgates. You have to

527
00:24:41,581 --> 00:24:45,422
Speaker 1: share intimate information with your friends. And in some lights, sure,

528
00:24:45,422 --> 00:24:48,142
Speaker 1: you could say talking about someone else's marriage is gossip,

529
00:24:48,182 --> 00:24:50,661
Speaker 1: but in some ways, it can often really be a

530
00:24:50,661 --> 00:24:52,782
Speaker 1: way of ensuring that your friends are safe.

531
00:24:52,821 --> 00:24:56,902
Speaker 3: But and that's the thing, that's the intention, right, So absolutely,

532
00:24:56,901 --> 00:24:58,941
Speaker 3: if there was a situation where I thought that my

533
00:24:59,702 --> 00:25:03,942
Speaker 3: friend was marrying an awful person, if I thought that,

534
00:25:04,061 --> 00:25:06,782
Speaker 3: if I was worried about them, absolutely I might go

535
00:25:06,821 --> 00:25:09,502
Speaker 3: to someone else and say that, And that might genuinely

536
00:25:09,782 --> 00:25:13,262
Speaker 3: be coming from a place of concern in this instance,

537
00:25:13,821 --> 00:25:16,262
Speaker 3: it isn't. I keep looking at these three women and

538
00:25:16,302 --> 00:25:19,741
Speaker 3: going you don't like each other. You fundamentally don't like

539
00:25:19,782 --> 00:25:22,101
Speaker 3: each other. You don't have that much in common. And

540
00:25:22,141 --> 00:25:24,341
Speaker 3: the reason they have to keep going behind each other's

541
00:25:24,381 --> 00:25:27,342
Speaker 3: backs is because nothing they say to each other's faces

542
00:25:27,422 --> 00:25:27,941
Speaker 3: is true.

543
00:25:27,982 --> 00:25:29,782
Speaker 1: So why are they hanging out if they don't like you?

544
00:25:29,901 --> 00:25:31,901
Speaker 3: Because of a shared history. And I think there's something

545
00:25:31,942 --> 00:25:35,141
Speaker 3: specific here about maybe people you went to school with

546
00:25:35,222 --> 00:25:37,502
Speaker 3: and the dynamics of a group you went to school with,

547
00:25:37,661 --> 00:25:42,861
Speaker 3: because you're sort of the thing you're attracted to is

548
00:25:43,302 --> 00:25:46,702
Speaker 3: the history and the mythology and the story that you've

549
00:25:46,742 --> 00:25:49,381
Speaker 3: got that you've been friends from school. You've actually grown

550
00:25:49,422 --> 00:25:52,222
Speaker 3: up in totally different directions and you don't know each

551
00:25:52,262 --> 00:25:55,141
Speaker 3: other anymore. They don't know why the friend is divorced.

552
00:25:55,381 --> 00:25:57,542
Speaker 3: If they could sit there and just go, my marriage

553
00:25:57,542 --> 00:26:01,742
Speaker 3: fell apart because I cheated, or I have an alcohol problem,

554
00:26:02,022 --> 00:26:04,902
Speaker 3: or actually my career is not going that well, then

555
00:26:04,942 --> 00:26:09,302
Speaker 3: they wouldn't be craving that gossip behind the scenes. I

556
00:26:09,302 --> 00:26:11,581
Speaker 3: think that that's they're craving the intimacy because it's not

557
00:26:11,621 --> 00:26:12,702
Speaker 3: happening with the three of them.

558
00:26:12,782 --> 00:26:16,222
Speaker 2: Also, the picture we're being painted here is a three

559
00:26:16,462 --> 00:26:19,621
Speaker 2: very sort of aspirational women who look on the outside

560
00:26:19,661 --> 00:26:21,742
Speaker 2: like everything is perfect. Like that's why the main thing

561
00:26:21,742 --> 00:26:23,262
Speaker 2: they say to each other all the time is.

562
00:26:23,302 --> 00:26:26,542
Speaker 4: You look amazing, you look amazing. You Like it's just

563
00:26:26,621 --> 00:26:27,182
Speaker 4: over and over.

564
00:26:27,302 --> 00:26:29,701
Speaker 2: It's all about the outside, right, and they're not really

565
00:26:29,742 --> 00:26:33,221
Speaker 2: interested in the inside. I think you're both right because

566
00:26:33,942 --> 00:26:36,941
Speaker 2: I think that way more female friendships than we like

567
00:26:36,982 --> 00:26:39,742
Speaker 2: to acknowledge are exactly like this. I know I've been

568
00:26:39,782 --> 00:26:41,781
Speaker 2: those people. I know I've been those people who are

569
00:26:41,821 --> 00:26:43,981
Speaker 2: like going, oh, you know, it's so great to be

570
00:26:44,022 --> 00:26:45,662
Speaker 2: with you, and I love you so much, But then

571
00:26:45,702 --> 00:26:47,502
Speaker 2: you know there's someone will be like she looks a

572
00:26:47,502 --> 00:26:49,902
Speaker 2: bit and you're like like that, We've all been there, right.

573
00:26:50,621 --> 00:26:53,262
Speaker 2: I personally have rules about which I think whether or

574
00:26:53,302 --> 00:26:55,302
Speaker 2: not I'm prepared to gossip about you probably tells you

575
00:26:55,341 --> 00:26:57,542
Speaker 2: whether or not you're really a good friend, do you.

576
00:26:57,422 --> 00:26:57,942
Speaker 4: Know what I mean?

577
00:26:58,222 --> 00:27:01,661
Speaker 2: Like, because people always want to know. We've got to

578
00:27:01,702 --> 00:27:04,141
Speaker 2: remember in this dynamic, one of them is famous, right,

579
00:27:04,302 --> 00:27:07,341
Speaker 2: Jacqueline is famous and super successful, and so she's always

580
00:27:07,381 --> 00:27:08,981
Speaker 2: going to be at the top of the leaderboard to

581
00:27:09,061 --> 00:27:13,302
Speaker 2: use a meaning, right, And I recognize this because I

582
00:27:13,341 --> 00:27:14,462
Speaker 2: have some Jacquelines in my life.

583
00:27:14,462 --> 00:27:15,702
Speaker 4: They're called Mea and Jesse and.

584
00:27:18,861 --> 00:27:19,462
Speaker 1: Have an argument.

585
00:27:19,462 --> 00:27:21,982
Speaker 4: We're all Jacquelines to appointment anyway, I wish, I wish.

586
00:27:22,262 --> 00:27:25,182
Speaker 2: But anyway, people will always if they meet me, get

587
00:27:25,222 --> 00:27:27,302
Speaker 2: to know me, like they're friends and friends, they're in

588
00:27:27,341 --> 00:27:30,942
Speaker 2: my circle somehow, they want information about you guys. Right,

589
00:27:30,982 --> 00:27:33,942
Speaker 2: They'll be like, is Mia, do they really like each other?

590
00:27:34,061 --> 00:27:36,661
Speaker 2: That must be so weird working with your mother. Well, obviously,

591
00:27:36,982 --> 00:27:38,902
Speaker 2: that must be so weird working with your mother in law.

592
00:27:38,942 --> 00:27:41,621
Speaker 2: And you know they're just chip chip chip, chip chipping,

593
00:27:41,661 --> 00:27:43,782
Speaker 2: and they're thinking maybe if she has another wine, like

594
00:27:43,861 --> 00:27:45,341
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like that they'll get some

595
00:27:45,422 --> 00:27:49,981
Speaker 2: gossip closed door policy on that for me, right, absolutely not.

596
00:27:50,222 --> 00:27:52,742
Speaker 4: And so but you know, with Mia and Jesse, I

597
00:27:52,742 --> 00:27:53,502
Speaker 4: will gossip.

598
00:27:53,302 --> 00:27:55,622
Speaker 1: About it about each other too. Yeah.

599
00:27:55,702 --> 00:27:56,621
Speaker 4: But also.

600
00:27:58,061 --> 00:28:00,142
Speaker 2: And it's like a very good friend of mine who

601
00:28:00,141 --> 00:28:03,141
Speaker 2: went through a divorce. Everybody else in the circle, how

602
00:28:03,262 --> 00:28:05,461
Speaker 2: she doing, what's really the story about that divorce? Like

603
00:28:05,542 --> 00:28:09,022
Speaker 2: dig dig dig no closed book, absolutely, but within the

604
00:28:09,061 --> 00:28:11,542
Speaker 2: little finds a very close friendship group.

605
00:28:11,581 --> 00:28:12,661
Speaker 4: Of course you will talk about that.

606
00:28:12,661 --> 00:28:15,782
Speaker 1: That's where people ask why they're getting divorced, how she's doing, etc.

607
00:28:16,381 --> 00:28:18,422
Speaker 1: Divorce is one of those things where it is about

608
00:28:18,462 --> 00:28:22,101
Speaker 1: information sharing, and when people hear that someone has gotten divorced,

609
00:28:22,101 --> 00:28:24,622
Speaker 1: they want to make sure they avoid that fate themselves.

610
00:28:24,702 --> 00:28:26,262
Speaker 1: That's why they're digging for information.

611
00:28:26,661 --> 00:28:30,302
Speaker 3: There's that I think the question of are these people

612
00:28:30,341 --> 00:28:32,702
Speaker 3: and I'm part of friendship groups that you know, might

613
00:28:32,861 --> 00:28:36,302
Speaker 3: be from my past or whatever, where if I'm honest

614
00:28:36,341 --> 00:28:38,701
Speaker 3: with myself, I've gone, these people aren't rooting for you.

615
00:28:39,142 --> 00:28:42,382
Speaker 3: They in fact, a lot of their behavior suggests they

616
00:28:42,382 --> 00:28:45,342
Speaker 3: don't actually like you, which is an awful realization, but

617
00:28:45,382 --> 00:28:47,782
Speaker 3: you go, they're just not. You can tell when someone's

618
00:28:47,862 --> 00:28:51,782
Speaker 3: rooting for you, and these women aren't. And you know, Holly,

619
00:28:51,822 --> 00:28:55,662
Speaker 3: you're talking about MEA and me and you, And I'm

620
00:28:55,661 --> 00:28:58,982
Speaker 3: sure that there's elements and dynamics that can be complicated.

621
00:28:59,222 --> 00:29:02,062
Speaker 5: But are you rooting for each other? Yes? Yes, So

622
00:29:02,142 --> 00:29:04,102
Speaker 5: if there's a thing behind your back where.

623
00:29:03,902 --> 00:29:05,582
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, do you think that me is a

624
00:29:05,622 --> 00:29:08,421
Speaker 3: bit stressed at the moment, You're not saying it to

625
00:29:09,222 --> 00:29:12,262
Speaker 3: under mine her or to create some little gang behind

626
00:29:12,342 --> 00:29:16,142
Speaker 3: her back. It's actually there's kind of faux concern, and

627
00:29:16,182 --> 00:29:17,662
Speaker 3: then there is genuine.

628
00:29:17,302 --> 00:29:19,981
Speaker 2: Yes, because there are times when you do need to

629
00:29:19,982 --> 00:29:24,382
Speaker 2: say to somebody, do you think that this person who

630
00:29:24,422 --> 00:29:27,422
Speaker 2: I love needs some help? Like, there are times when

631
00:29:27,462 --> 00:29:29,062
Speaker 2: you need to do that, and you have to pick

632
00:29:29,182 --> 00:29:32,142
Speaker 2: very carefully who that person is. The thing that's interesting

633
00:29:32,142 --> 00:29:34,582
Speaker 2: about this is what Lucas said when he saw it,

634
00:29:34,622 --> 00:29:35,981
Speaker 2: and he said, this is one of the things I

635
00:29:36,022 --> 00:29:38,902
Speaker 2: have trouble with about women. I totally understand what he means,

636
00:29:38,942 --> 00:29:41,941
Speaker 2: because this dynamic, like Mike White, who writes White Loatus,

637
00:29:41,982 --> 00:29:43,502
Speaker 2: is very clever, and I'm sure it's going to go

638
00:29:43,502 --> 00:29:45,862
Speaker 2: in all kinds of interesting directions, but it is a

639
00:29:45,942 --> 00:29:47,022
Speaker 2: very familiar trope.

640
00:29:47,102 --> 00:29:47,262
Speaker 1: You know.

641
00:29:47,342 --> 00:29:49,622
Speaker 2: I was thinking about how when Harry met Sally is

642
00:29:49,661 --> 00:29:51,382
Speaker 2: like can men and women really be friends? I think

643
00:29:51,422 --> 00:29:53,262
Speaker 2: there's a question of like can women and women really

644
00:29:53,262 --> 00:29:56,782
Speaker 2: be friends, Like we are constantly pitted in competition with

645
00:29:56,862 --> 00:29:59,782
Speaker 2: each other, who's more beautiful, who's got fewer wrinkles, who's richer,

646
00:29:59,782 --> 00:30:02,462
Speaker 2: who's got a hot husband, who's got like and it's

647
00:30:02,502 --> 00:30:06,782
Speaker 2: like this constant and professional success. Of course, I mean

648
00:30:06,782 --> 00:30:08,662
Speaker 2: it's a well worn trope, but I think there's truth

649
00:30:08,661 --> 00:30:10,582
Speaker 2: to it, is that we've alway been convinced there isn't

650
00:30:10,661 --> 00:30:12,542
Speaker 2: enough to go around for us, so we have to try.

651
00:30:12,582 --> 00:30:16,542
Speaker 3: Can competitiveness coexist with friendship? Do you think, like, if

652
00:30:16,542 --> 00:30:19,422
Speaker 3: you're feeling genuinely competitive, I'm thinking about my really really

653
00:30:19,462 --> 00:30:22,942
Speaker 3: close friends, and I'm a very competitive person. I don't

654
00:30:22,942 --> 00:30:26,302
Speaker 3: feel competitive with them. Is that like, do you think

655
00:30:26,382 --> 00:30:28,822
Speaker 3: that that's something that because here you can see that

656
00:30:28,822 --> 00:30:32,582
Speaker 3: they're all competing for various things, Like is this a

657
00:30:32,622 --> 00:30:36,382
Speaker 3: trope or is this a genuine reflection of female friendship.

658
00:30:36,422 --> 00:30:38,782
Speaker 1: I think they're competing, but not necessarily in the way

659
00:30:38,822 --> 00:30:41,062
Speaker 1: that we're discussing here. I think they're competing with each

660
00:30:41,102 --> 00:30:45,062
Speaker 1: other for intimacy. And there's a dynamic with girls trips

661
00:30:45,102 --> 00:30:47,342
Speaker 1: where they tend to be with people who you maybe

662
00:30:47,422 --> 00:30:49,622
Speaker 1: don't see every day. That's why you're going on a trip.

663
00:30:49,661 --> 00:30:53,342
Speaker 1: With them, and you have to catch up on all

664
00:30:53,382 --> 00:30:57,782
Speaker 1: these months or years of daily chats in a very

665
00:30:57,782 --> 00:31:00,461
Speaker 1: intense three day period or what have you. And I

666
00:31:00,502 --> 00:31:03,702
Speaker 1: think that one way to get there is to sort

667
00:31:03,702 --> 00:31:07,822
Speaker 1: of immediately start with the existential questions. Is this person okay?

668
00:31:07,942 --> 00:31:10,342
Speaker 1: Does this person have a drinking problem? What's this person's

669
00:31:10,342 --> 00:31:13,342
Speaker 1: marriage like? And it's almost like that's the dynamic of

670
00:31:13,342 --> 00:31:15,862
Speaker 1: a girl's trip. You often get to the heart of

671
00:31:15,902 --> 00:31:17,742
Speaker 1: things a little too quickly.

672
00:31:17,422 --> 00:31:20,862
Speaker 3: And when someone, even just one of them, let's the

673
00:31:20,862 --> 00:31:22,622
Speaker 3: perfect story go, because they're all trying to tell each

674
00:31:22,661 --> 00:31:25,382
Speaker 3: other perfect stories about how life is. If just one

675
00:31:25,382 --> 00:31:27,542
Speaker 3: of them were to let that go, then I think

676
00:31:27,742 --> 00:31:30,422
Speaker 3: the quality of the friendship would just skyrocket.

677
00:31:31,142 --> 00:31:32,822
Speaker 1: Okay, I've got a bit of news to share with

678
00:31:32,902 --> 00:31:34,902
Speaker 1: you both, but I do want to remind you that

679
00:31:34,982 --> 00:31:39,342
Speaker 1: this show is about disagreeing respectfully. I we agree on that, okay,

680
00:31:39,542 --> 00:31:41,462
Speaker 1: and let's not resort to name calling. So I know

681
00:31:41,542 --> 00:31:47,261
Speaker 1: you don't have some strong opinions. A viral video this

682
00:31:47,302 --> 00:31:50,782
Speaker 1: week has raised a burning question, Can you reserve a

683
00:31:50,862 --> 00:31:53,181
Speaker 1: parking spot with your physical body?

684
00:31:53,982 --> 00:31:54,342
Speaker 4: Explain?

685
00:31:54,582 --> 00:31:56,822
Speaker 5: Absolutely not? Absolutely do so.

686
00:31:56,902 --> 00:31:59,421
Speaker 1: A short clip which was understood to have been filmed

687
00:31:59,422 --> 00:32:02,222
Speaker 1: at Melbourne's chad Stone shopping center last week. It was

688
00:32:02,262 --> 00:32:04,221
Speaker 1: a very very busy day in the car park and

689
00:32:04,262 --> 00:32:07,582
Speaker 1: a woman is standing in a car park spot reserving it.

690
00:32:08,182 --> 00:32:10,702
Speaker 1: A driver says, you can't blow coffee spot like that,

691
00:32:10,782 --> 00:32:12,902
Speaker 1: And then another car, this one with pea plates. It

692
00:32:13,022 --> 00:32:14,822
Speaker 1: always needs to be a pea plate driver in any

693
00:32:14,902 --> 00:32:17,902
Speaker 1: kind of story like this, cruises by declaring this is insane.

694
00:32:18,902 --> 00:32:21,062
Speaker 1: Before as news dot com dot you put it the

695
00:32:21,102 --> 00:32:21,942
Speaker 1: clip abruptly.

696
00:32:23,382 --> 00:32:26,142
Speaker 4: I don't want to think about what happened next. It's

697
00:32:26,142 --> 00:32:28,022
Speaker 4: going to be a riding prompt and then.

698
00:32:29,622 --> 00:32:33,181
Speaker 1: The clip may end abruptly. But the debate continues to rage.

699
00:32:33,302 --> 00:32:34,902
Speaker 1: What do you think, hol you spend a lot of

700
00:32:34,902 --> 00:32:35,462
Speaker 1: time in your car?

701
00:32:35,582 --> 00:32:39,661
Speaker 2: I know, no, it's not fair because there is nothing

702
00:32:39,661 --> 00:32:43,582
Speaker 2: more stressful than shopping center car park. It is the

703
00:32:43,661 --> 00:32:46,221
Speaker 2: setting for every drama, right, every drama.

704
00:32:46,302 --> 00:32:47,782
Speaker 1: It's like, did use the next white load?

705
00:32:48,902 --> 00:32:52,021
Speaker 4: They need to just scrap the whole luxurious.

706
00:32:51,422 --> 00:32:55,302
Speaker 2: Resort go downstairs at Westfield, like the fumes are a lot,

707
00:32:56,302 --> 00:32:58,542
Speaker 2: but it's a really good idea.

708
00:32:58,582 --> 00:32:59,502
Speaker 4: The people who work in the.

709
00:32:59,422 --> 00:33:01,102
Speaker 1: Car wash like this.

710
00:33:04,582 --> 00:33:07,462
Speaker 4: But you cannot do that. And I don't think I've

711
00:33:07,462 --> 00:33:07,782
Speaker 4: done it.

712
00:33:07,822 --> 00:33:10,062
Speaker 2: But then I was suddenly thinking, I can picture a

713
00:33:10,102 --> 00:33:12,421
Speaker 2: world in which I am desperately in a hurry, as

714
00:33:12,422 --> 00:33:14,782
Speaker 2: you always are, and I throw my teenage daughter out

715
00:33:14,782 --> 00:33:16,782
Speaker 2: of the car and I say.

716
00:33:16,582 --> 00:33:21,262
Speaker 4: Stand there, go find a spot, stand in it and

717
00:33:21,302 --> 00:33:23,622
Speaker 4: call me. I can picture that, you know what I mean?

718
00:33:23,782 --> 00:33:24,902
Speaker 4: Would it be my best day?

719
00:33:25,062 --> 00:33:25,102
Speaker 1: No?

720
00:33:25,862 --> 00:33:30,222
Speaker 3: I instinctively no, it's not right. But is it enshrined

721
00:33:30,262 --> 00:33:33,741
Speaker 3: in law? No, like I think it's frowned upon. But

722
00:33:33,822 --> 00:33:36,582
Speaker 3: I think that technically you can probably do it.

723
00:33:36,622 --> 00:33:38,822
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure Pete hegg Seth would stand.

724
00:33:40,462 --> 00:33:41,582
Speaker 4: Shallum May wouldn't do it.

725
00:33:42,302 --> 00:33:44,342
Speaker 3: I think the worst place is around the beach, right,

726
00:33:44,382 --> 00:33:47,022
Speaker 3: because you're driving around everyone's hot, everyone goes at the

727
00:33:47,022 --> 00:33:50,702
Speaker 3: same time. And I see people spot someone walking back

728
00:33:50,742 --> 00:33:53,262
Speaker 3: from the beach. We're talking two prams, we're talking a

729
00:33:53,422 --> 00:33:56,542
Speaker 3: cool cabana, bloody chant, all of these things. They spot

730
00:33:56,582 --> 00:33:59,542
Speaker 3: them and they just stop their car and it's like,

731
00:33:59,542 --> 00:34:01,261
Speaker 3: you don't knows can take thirty minutes, you don't even

732
00:34:01,302 --> 00:34:03,742
Speaker 3: know where they're parked, and you watch them walk towards

733
00:34:03,742 --> 00:34:05,702
Speaker 3: a car, unpack it all, and I go.

734
00:34:05,702 --> 00:34:07,261
Speaker 5: No, no, no, we keep driving.

735
00:34:07,302 --> 00:34:09,062
Speaker 3: I think that there's got to be a time limit

736
00:34:09,982 --> 00:34:15,502
Speaker 3: probably under two minutes of keeping your car still before like,

737
00:34:15,542 --> 00:34:17,262
Speaker 3: you've just got to keep going and give the park

738
00:34:17,342 --> 00:34:19,781
Speaker 3: to someone else. Because I even see, like, you know,

739
00:34:19,862 --> 00:34:22,261
Speaker 3: the grocery shopping one and someone is like, I'll just

740
00:34:22,302 --> 00:34:24,462
Speaker 3: wait for this person to finish their grocery shopping.

741
00:34:24,181 --> 00:34:26,462
Speaker 5: And it's like, I do know. Oh no, no, no, no,

742
00:34:26,462 --> 00:34:26,861
Speaker 5: no no.

743
00:34:27,102 --> 00:34:31,781
Speaker 3: Not a whole trolley, a handbasket, yes, not a trolley, Amelia.

744
00:34:32,142 --> 00:34:34,701
Speaker 1: Look, I live near the beach, I know Crimea River,

745
00:34:34,902 --> 00:34:37,142
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of parking issues down there, a

746
00:34:37,142 --> 00:34:40,901
Speaker 1: lot of parking issues. I hear the horns honking all

747
00:34:41,022 --> 00:34:43,781
Speaker 1: day long, car accidents just waiting to happen, a lot

748
00:34:43,822 --> 00:34:48,301
Speaker 1: of pea plates cruising by declaring this is insane. I'm

749
00:34:48,382 --> 00:34:51,021
Speaker 1: just the world's worst parker. I couldn't park in most

750
00:34:51,022 --> 00:34:53,142
Speaker 1: of these spots, honestly, I'm just looking for the one

751
00:34:53,142 --> 00:34:54,261
Speaker 1: that's the easiest to park.

752
00:34:54,462 --> 00:34:57,741
Speaker 3: Yeahs, I often have the shameful oh reverse park, can't

753
00:34:57,741 --> 00:34:57,982
Speaker 3: do it?

754
00:34:58,062 --> 00:34:59,542
Speaker 5: Keep going And I'm like, nah, you haven't.

755
00:35:00,342 --> 00:35:03,502
Speaker 2: After the break is the Hollywood red carpet sending a

756
00:35:03,622 --> 00:35:17,302
Speaker 2: dangerous message about the latest trend.

757
00:35:12,542 --> 00:35:16,502
Speaker 3: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

758
00:35:16,542 --> 00:35:21,022
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively for Muma Mea. Subscribers follow the link

759
00:35:21,062 --> 00:35:23,022
Speaker 3: in the show notes to get us in your ears

760
00:35:23,181 --> 00:35:25,741
Speaker 3: five days a week. And a huge thank you to

761
00:35:25,862 --> 00:35:29,941
Speaker 3: all our current subscribers, from Ariana Grande to Demi Moore.

762
00:35:30,181 --> 00:35:34,701
Speaker 3: Skeletal celebrities ascending out a dangerous message. No, that is

763
00:35:34,741 --> 00:35:37,062
Speaker 3: not a headline from the nineties. It is pulled from

764
00:35:37,102 --> 00:35:41,462
Speaker 3: the Telegraph UK and it was published yesterday. This week,

765
00:35:41,622 --> 00:35:44,262
Speaker 3: the Screen Actors Guild Awards, which we've already talked about,

766
00:35:44,382 --> 00:35:47,062
Speaker 3: or the SAgs, took place in la and the language

767
00:35:47,102 --> 00:35:50,062
Speaker 3: to describe the women, in particular walking the Red Carpet

768
00:35:50,302 --> 00:35:53,502
Speaker 3: felt like it belonged to a totally different time. I

769
00:35:53,582 --> 00:35:58,782
Speaker 3: read articles about lollipop ladies who were scarily thin, likening

770
00:35:58,822 --> 00:36:01,462
Speaker 3: the bodies of most of the stars to the coffee

771
00:36:01,502 --> 00:36:05,462
Speaker 3: and cigarettes phyzekee of the nineteen sixties. The working theory,

772
00:36:05,701 --> 00:36:07,862
Speaker 3: and it's one we've talked about on this show before,

773
00:36:07,982 --> 00:36:11,301
Speaker 3: especially around award season, is that weight loss injections have

774
00:36:11,542 --> 00:36:15,422
Speaker 3: transformed Hollywood. A raft of celebrities have spoken on the

775
00:36:15,462 --> 00:36:18,701
Speaker 3: record about their use of the drugs, sharing both positive

776
00:36:18,822 --> 00:36:20,462
Speaker 3: and negative side effects.

777
00:36:20,902 --> 00:36:21,821
Speaker 5: But anyone with.

778
00:36:21,822 --> 00:36:24,382
Speaker 3: Eyes can see that the bodies on red carpets have

779
00:36:24,502 --> 00:36:28,942
Speaker 3: changed as well as Grande and more. The bodies of

780
00:36:29,022 --> 00:36:33,341
Speaker 3: Selena Gomez, Brookshields, and Georgina Chapman were all described as

781
00:36:33,422 --> 00:36:38,062
Speaker 3: having dramatic transformations. I have a theory about what our

782
00:36:38,102 --> 00:36:40,981
Speaker 3: actual issue is with these women, and I don't think

783
00:36:41,022 --> 00:36:44,221
Speaker 3: it's that they're on weight loss drugs. But first, Emilia,

784
00:36:44,422 --> 00:36:47,701
Speaker 3: should we even be having this conversation in the first place,

785
00:36:47,701 --> 00:36:49,182
Speaker 3: so were allowed to talk about women's bodies.

786
00:36:49,221 --> 00:36:52,062
Speaker 1: Of course we have to be able to have this conversation.

787
00:36:52,221 --> 00:36:55,701
Speaker 1: There has been a drastic recalibration of bodies on the

788
00:36:55,701 --> 00:36:57,901
Speaker 1: Red carpet, and to not talk about it would be

789
00:36:57,942 --> 00:37:00,622
Speaker 1: a kin to gas lighting. It really takes me back

790
00:37:00,661 --> 00:37:03,302
Speaker 1: in time to the two thousands when the Lollipop Ladies

791
00:37:03,701 --> 00:37:06,462
Speaker 1: made an appearance previously, and at that time we weren't

792
00:37:06,462 --> 00:37:08,781
Speaker 1: allowed to talk about it, and so women just had

793
00:37:08,822 --> 00:37:12,221
Speaker 1: to look at these images and process them themselves in silence.

794
00:37:12,582 --> 00:37:14,022
Speaker 1: I really hope we don't have to do the same

795
00:37:14,022 --> 00:37:16,502
Speaker 1: thing this time, Holly. I know this probably raises memories

796
00:37:16,502 --> 00:37:17,062
Speaker 1: for you at that time.

797
00:37:17,302 --> 00:37:19,701
Speaker 2: I did a lot of talking about it because this

798
00:37:19,862 --> 00:37:23,102
Speaker 2: makes me feel like I am back at work fifteen

799
00:37:23,142 --> 00:37:25,502
Speaker 2: years ago, because I was working gossip mags through that.

800
00:37:25,542 --> 00:37:27,542
Speaker 2: You can drink about that, because I did bring up

801
00:37:27,542 --> 00:37:30,301
Speaker 2: a bit. I worked in gossip mags, then drink and

802
00:37:31,342 --> 00:37:34,902
Speaker 2: it was peak size zero mania. And the thing that

803
00:37:35,022 --> 00:37:37,982
Speaker 2: I am telling myself all the time at the moment,

804
00:37:38,022 --> 00:37:42,382
Speaker 2: because in those days, we chose the skinniest looking images

805
00:37:42,661 --> 00:37:47,661
Speaker 2: of actresses like Calista Flockhart, Deborah Messing, Porscha de Rossi,

806
00:37:47,982 --> 00:37:52,302
Speaker 2: Nicole Ritchie like. We would choose the absolute skinniest frames

807
00:37:52,302 --> 00:37:53,982
Speaker 2: of them, the ones where it looked most like the

808
00:37:53,982 --> 00:37:56,262
Speaker 2: bones were protruding. It was great if there were shadows

809
00:37:56,342 --> 00:37:59,142
Speaker 2: underneath their you know, their shoulder blade or on their

810
00:37:59,302 --> 00:38:02,102
Speaker 2: collar bone, and we would crop them in a certain

811
00:38:02,102 --> 00:38:03,861
Speaker 2: way to put them in lots of space so that

812
00:38:03,902 --> 00:38:07,741
Speaker 2: we could say scary skinny fears for right. The thing

813
00:38:07,781 --> 00:38:10,261
Speaker 2: that's complicated about this, because that is true that was

814
00:38:10,302 --> 00:38:12,341
Speaker 2: abhorrent behavior. I'm not proud of it, right, is that

815
00:38:12,382 --> 00:38:15,342
Speaker 2: we were OBJECTI finding these women, we were concerned trolling,

816
00:38:15,342 --> 00:38:16,301
Speaker 2: not that we had that word.

817
00:38:16,342 --> 00:38:17,781
Speaker 4: Then about the.

818
00:38:17,661 --> 00:38:21,102
Speaker 2: Delightfully passive fears four Yeah, fears four all the time?

819
00:38:21,221 --> 00:38:22,302
Speaker 3: Right, that's so worried.

820
00:38:22,382 --> 00:38:24,461
Speaker 2: Yeah, we are so worried, and we are back there

821
00:38:24,582 --> 00:38:27,782
Speaker 2: right now. We thought that that kind of culture had gone.

822
00:38:28,221 --> 00:38:30,542
Speaker 2: But one of the things that's really important to bear

823
00:38:30,582 --> 00:38:32,582
Speaker 2: in mind while we talk about how awful it is

824
00:38:32,622 --> 00:38:35,181
Speaker 2: that we're seeing headlines like this again, is that ten

825
00:38:35,221 --> 00:38:37,741
Speaker 2: to fifteen years after the height of a lot of

826
00:38:37,741 --> 00:38:39,381
Speaker 2: that stuff. And if you go back and look at

827
00:38:39,462 --> 00:38:43,701
Speaker 2: late nineties TV, think Desperate Housewives Friends Ali mcbeale as

828
00:38:43,741 --> 00:38:47,982
Speaker 2: I said, the women are so thin that it is distracting.

829
00:38:48,062 --> 00:38:51,022
Speaker 2: It is so distracting, right, And most of those women

830
00:38:51,701 --> 00:38:54,582
Speaker 2: since then have given interviews and spoken about it and said, yes,

831
00:38:54,781 --> 00:38:57,582
Speaker 2: they was a culture that encouraged eating disorders. They were

832
00:38:57,622 --> 00:39:00,661
Speaker 2: so unhealthy it affected their weight. Portia Rossi talked about

833
00:39:00,661 --> 00:39:02,022
Speaker 2: how it was an unusual at all to have a

834
00:39:02,022 --> 00:39:04,102
Speaker 2: treadmill in your changing room at work, and that you

835
00:39:04,102 --> 00:39:06,262
Speaker 2: were encouraged to run on that all the time.

836
00:39:06,582 --> 00:39:07,942
Speaker 4: A lot of those women are on the.

837
00:39:07,822 --> 00:39:09,821
Speaker 2: Record talking about the pressure to be that in and

838
00:39:09,862 --> 00:39:10,741
Speaker 2: how damaging it.

839
00:39:10,701 --> 00:39:11,462
Speaker 4: Was for their bodies.

840
00:39:11,942 --> 00:39:14,661
Speaker 2: So here we are again, after a brief decade of

841
00:39:14,661 --> 00:39:17,062
Speaker 2: what we liked to call body positivity, where we were

842
00:39:17,102 --> 00:39:20,102
Speaker 2: supposedly more accepting of different shapes, and of course the

843
00:39:20,142 --> 00:39:23,781
Speaker 2: popular narrative that the Kardashians changed the trend. Now the

844
00:39:23,822 --> 00:39:26,821
Speaker 2: trend is swung back. Whether it's weight loss injections, whether

845
00:39:26,822 --> 00:39:30,142
Speaker 2: it's not, doesn't really matter. We're back to skinny, skinny, skinny.

846
00:39:30,701 --> 00:39:33,982
Speaker 2: The conversation is exactly the same. And yet we're not

847
00:39:34,022 --> 00:39:37,622
Speaker 2: supposed to say that some of these women might be

848
00:39:37,701 --> 00:39:38,901
Speaker 2: doing dangerous things.

849
00:39:39,022 --> 00:39:42,462
Speaker 3: Yes, so I think we know now that the fears

850
00:39:42,502 --> 00:39:46,742
Speaker 3: four We're so worried was not true. But it was true,

851
00:39:46,781 --> 00:39:49,701
Speaker 3: but it was a smoke screen for basically pointing a

852
00:39:49,701 --> 00:39:51,822
Speaker 3: finger at a woman and say, look, one hundred percent.

853
00:39:51,862 --> 00:39:54,102
Speaker 4: But then ten years on that woman was saying, yeah,

854
00:39:54,302 --> 00:39:55,542
Speaker 4: I was really sick.

855
00:39:55,942 --> 00:39:58,262
Speaker 3: So look, this is my theory because I was reading

856
00:39:58,502 --> 00:40:01,661
Speaker 3: a few articles about this yesterday, and I was reading

857
00:40:01,661 --> 00:40:04,181
Speaker 3: a piece in the Telegraph by Susanne Moore, and I

858
00:40:04,261 --> 00:40:09,261
Speaker 3: thought that this paragraph was particularly revealing. It said, now,

859
00:40:09,302 --> 00:40:11,982
Speaker 3: so remove the excess skin from sudden weight loss and

860
00:40:12,022 --> 00:40:15,662
Speaker 3: fill in the haunted hollows of ozebic face. Sure, everyone

861
00:40:15,701 --> 00:40:18,582
Speaker 3: wants to look their best, but these women do not

862
00:40:18,741 --> 00:40:22,261
Speaker 3: look their best. They look breakable. And this is the

863
00:40:22,342 --> 00:40:25,542
Speaker 3: undercurrent of so much of the commentary, and I think

864
00:40:25,582 --> 00:40:28,021
Speaker 3: it sort of betrays our real issue with thin women

865
00:40:28,062 --> 00:40:30,901
Speaker 3: on the red carpet, which is you don't even look

866
00:40:30,942 --> 00:40:33,341
Speaker 3: pretty like that's and it feels like we're in high

867
00:40:33,382 --> 00:40:36,142
Speaker 3: school again. And it's the same with surgery. We love

868
00:40:36,221 --> 00:40:39,102
Speaker 3: the story of a woman who tried to look better

869
00:40:39,102 --> 00:40:40,222
Speaker 3: but only looked worse.

870
00:40:40,382 --> 00:40:42,582
Speaker 5: It's like the whole it's the plot of the substance, right.

871
00:40:42,582 --> 00:40:44,622
Speaker 2: Well, we also like it when really rich people tell

872
00:40:44,661 --> 00:40:46,982
Speaker 2: us they're miserable. It's like whatever we've been told that

873
00:40:47,022 --> 00:40:50,262
Speaker 2: we should want. And every woman, particularly of a certain generation,

874
00:40:50,741 --> 00:40:53,622
Speaker 2: has been told that she should be thin, maybe not

875
00:40:54,022 --> 00:40:57,301
Speaker 2: scary thin, yeh, in verticommas because you can definitely be

876
00:40:57,542 --> 00:41:00,861
Speaker 2: too thin and verticommas. But generally speaking, we've been told

877
00:41:00,902 --> 00:41:03,542
Speaker 2: we should be smaller. Yeah, we should be perfect, we

878
00:41:03,582 --> 00:41:05,942
Speaker 2: should be thin, nobody fat but healthy.

879
00:41:06,102 --> 00:41:06,301
Speaker 5: Yes.

880
00:41:06,862 --> 00:41:08,582
Speaker 2: But we've all been told that we should want it.

881
00:41:08,582 --> 00:41:10,462
Speaker 2: We should want It's where the status is. It's the

882
00:41:10,502 --> 00:41:13,342
Speaker 2: differentiation between the ordinary people and the beautiful people is

883
00:41:13,382 --> 00:41:16,582
Speaker 2: whether you're thin or not. So there's almost like a

884
00:41:16,661 --> 00:41:18,142
Speaker 2: delight to be able to go.

885
00:41:18,102 --> 00:41:19,022
Speaker 4: Well, look it doesn't.

886
00:41:19,142 --> 00:41:20,741
Speaker 3: You took it too far and you don't even have

887
00:41:20,781 --> 00:41:23,982
Speaker 3: control because we're pretending that this is a moral panic

888
00:41:24,022 --> 00:41:27,781
Speaker 3: about weight loss injections. But Kathy Bates, for example, has

889
00:41:27,982 --> 00:41:29,862
Speaker 3: recently lost a lot of weight. She's on the record

890
00:41:29,902 --> 00:41:32,022
Speaker 3: talking about it. Weight loss injections were part of it.

891
00:41:32,582 --> 00:41:36,102
Speaker 3: The headlines about her, well, we love that because she's

892
00:41:36,181 --> 00:41:39,502
Speaker 3: not overweight anymore, and so everyone starts going we love

893
00:41:39,542 --> 00:41:42,742
Speaker 3: them in that context, but then when we see people

894
00:41:42,862 --> 00:41:45,221
Speaker 3: using them in a way, it's like, all we ultimately

895
00:41:45,261 --> 00:41:47,741
Speaker 3: want is for women to be pretty, and it's when

896
00:41:47,741 --> 00:41:49,181
Speaker 3: they're not that we start stomping our feet.

897
00:41:49,342 --> 00:41:53,662
Speaker 2: That's true, But interestingly, that narrative directly reflects the general

898
00:41:53,741 --> 00:41:56,742
Speaker 2: narrative about weight loss injections, which is that we approve

899
00:41:56,781 --> 00:41:58,982
Speaker 2: of it being used when it's for health and for

900
00:41:59,022 --> 00:42:00,901
Speaker 2: people who may have struggled with obesity and have been

901
00:42:00,902 --> 00:42:03,622
Speaker 2: prescribed it by a doctor. We don't generally approve of it.

902
00:42:03,982 --> 00:42:06,582
Speaker 2: When I say we, I don't mean me, you, Amelia.

903
00:42:06,661 --> 00:42:10,102
Speaker 2: I mean culturally and also the medical institution. To be honest,

904
00:42:10,261 --> 00:42:12,062
Speaker 2: we don't really approve of it if it's just to

905
00:42:12,102 --> 00:42:13,261
Speaker 2: get in address for your wedding.

906
00:42:13,342 --> 00:42:16,102
Speaker 1: There's also another thing going on here. I agree that

907
00:42:16,462 --> 00:42:18,661
Speaker 1: we see these cycles again and again, but this time

908
00:42:18,701 --> 00:42:21,542
Speaker 1: there's been a democratization of weight loss. Now, that could

909
00:42:21,542 --> 00:42:23,861
Speaker 1: have gone in any number of directions. In fact, when

910
00:42:23,862 --> 00:42:26,542
Speaker 1: these weight loss drugs, this new generation of them, first

911
00:42:26,622 --> 00:42:29,261
Speaker 1: came out, I had this somewhat idealistic view that it

912
00:42:29,261 --> 00:42:32,382
Speaker 1: would take away the fetishization of thinness, because if it

913
00:42:32,462 --> 00:42:35,341
Speaker 1: was so easy to become thin, maybe we'd get over

914
00:42:35,382 --> 00:42:37,781
Speaker 1: it as a society and decide it wasn't actually the

915
00:42:37,781 --> 00:42:40,221
Speaker 1: most important thing in the world. But instead, what we've

916
00:42:40,261 --> 00:42:42,942
Speaker 1: seen is almost the reverse of that. It's almost like

917
00:42:43,342 --> 00:42:46,941
Speaker 1: now that anyone can be thin, the stakes for how

918
00:42:47,102 --> 00:42:48,782
Speaker 1: thin you should be have been upped.

919
00:42:49,142 --> 00:42:51,382
Speaker 5: And also if you're not, then why not?

920
00:42:51,741 --> 00:42:54,142
Speaker 3: And I worry that there's just this new wave of

921
00:42:54,462 --> 00:42:57,901
Speaker 3: total fat phobia, which I mean has always existed that

922
00:42:57,902 --> 00:43:01,062
Speaker 3: never went away. To suggest it has would be so naive.

923
00:43:01,261 --> 00:43:02,022
Speaker 4: It's true.

924
00:43:02,261 --> 00:43:04,301
Speaker 2: You used to be able to tell the difference. If

925
00:43:04,342 --> 00:43:06,982
Speaker 2: you watch an Oscars red carpet, for example, you know

926
00:43:07,022 --> 00:43:09,462
Speaker 2: how anytime a star turns up, she's got her publicist,

927
00:43:09,582 --> 00:43:12,102
Speaker 2: she's got her stylists, she's got her manager, she comes

928
00:43:12,102 --> 00:43:14,902
Speaker 2: with an entourage, right, and you could always tell who's

929
00:43:14,942 --> 00:43:18,261
Speaker 2: the celebrity, the icon, and who are the civilians by

930
00:43:18,302 --> 00:43:20,741
Speaker 2: the fact that the celebrity was a lot thinner, right,

931
00:43:21,102 --> 00:43:22,942
Speaker 2: But now that all the well paid hangers on of

932
00:43:22,982 --> 00:43:26,381
Speaker 2: Hollywood can also access Thinness. To Amelia's point, and again,

933
00:43:26,502 --> 00:43:29,062
Speaker 2: I know we're talking about this in a slightly simplistic way,

934
00:43:29,102 --> 00:43:31,582
Speaker 2: as if weight loss injections are no big deal or whatever.

935
00:43:31,701 --> 00:43:35,142
Speaker 2: I don't mean that, But now that Thinness is more

936
00:43:35,502 --> 00:43:38,261
Speaker 2: accessible to those people, then you're right, Amelia. It's like

937
00:43:38,342 --> 00:43:42,062
Speaker 2: then the person who's special in inverted commas has to

938
00:43:42,302 --> 00:43:47,222
Speaker 2: still look majorly differentiated from the civilians, from the ordinary people.

939
00:43:47,382 --> 00:43:50,821
Speaker 3: There was also a story that came out this week

940
00:43:50,862 --> 00:43:53,861
Speaker 3: of a singer named Avery in the US, and she

941
00:43:54,302 --> 00:43:56,942
Speaker 3: was not overweight, didn't get prescribed by her doctor, but

942
00:43:57,142 --> 00:44:00,301
Speaker 3: has said I have an eating disorder and took her

943
00:44:00,342 --> 00:44:04,022
Speaker 3: ZMPIC for about a year, and she's spoken about how

944
00:44:04,102 --> 00:44:05,941
Speaker 3: I think just in the last few weeks she's been

945
00:44:06,022 --> 00:44:08,781
Speaker 3: diagnosed with osteoporosis. So we're also going to have a

946
00:44:08,781 --> 00:44:11,142
Speaker 3: wave of people who are using it not for the

947
00:44:11,142 --> 00:44:14,861
Speaker 3: medical purposes, who weren't prescribed it. Who I think, you

948
00:44:14,902 --> 00:44:16,822
Speaker 3: know there are going to be side effects.

949
00:44:16,862 --> 00:44:19,622
Speaker 2: I think we'll have a replay of exactly what I

950
00:44:19,661 --> 00:44:23,342
Speaker 2: was describing before about at the time when Deborah Messing

951
00:44:23,382 --> 00:44:25,262
Speaker 2: was on Will and Grace and she was shrinking before

952
00:44:25,302 --> 00:44:28,222
Speaker 2: our eyes, she was telling everybody she was fine, nothing

953
00:44:28,221 --> 00:44:30,742
Speaker 2: to see here. Ten years later she was giving interviews saying,

954
00:44:30,822 --> 00:44:33,782
Speaker 2: I was absolutely pressured. I couldn't fit into the samples

955
00:44:33,822 --> 00:44:36,062
Speaker 2: sizes in the dressing room, so I had to keep

956
00:44:36,102 --> 00:44:39,062
Speaker 2: getting smaller, smaller, smaller, and it damaged her health and

957
00:44:39,062 --> 00:44:41,741
Speaker 2: her self image. In ten years we'll be reading the

958
00:44:41,781 --> 00:44:44,381
Speaker 2: same interviews, but maybe we will again. I know there's

959
00:44:44,382 --> 00:44:46,582
Speaker 2: a lot of assumption here with people who will be saying,

960
00:44:46,622 --> 00:44:49,741
Speaker 2: remember when we first discovered weight loss injection drugs and

961
00:44:49,822 --> 00:44:51,261
Speaker 2: everybody just stopped eating well.

962
00:44:51,261 --> 00:44:53,701
Speaker 1: Sharon Osborne has also come out and said that she

963
00:44:53,862 --> 00:44:56,341
Speaker 1: didn't like the way her face looked after she went

964
00:44:56,382 --> 00:44:59,502
Speaker 1: on weight loss drugs, and that's also behind this huge

965
00:44:59,622 --> 00:45:02,341
Speaker 1: uptick in facial filler that people are getting as a

966
00:45:02,342 --> 00:45:04,902
Speaker 1: result of weight loss drugs. The Ft reported on that recently.

967
00:45:05,342 --> 00:45:08,221
Speaker 1: I want to inject, sorry about that pun. One more

968
00:45:08,302 --> 00:45:11,902
Speaker 1: theory into the conversation here, which is is it possible

969
00:45:12,181 --> 00:45:15,902
Speaker 1: that with this whipplash we're seeing with bodies, we're seeing

970
00:45:15,942 --> 00:45:18,181
Speaker 1: something a little bit like fast fashion, except now it's

971
00:45:18,221 --> 00:45:22,622
Speaker 1: fast bodies. So five years ago, a relatively covacious look

972
00:45:22,701 --> 00:45:26,301
Speaker 1: was in BBL. Surgery was all the rage, and that

973
00:45:26,422 --> 00:45:29,622
Speaker 1: was the aesthetic. And now just within five years we've

974
00:45:29,661 --> 00:45:32,982
Speaker 1: had this huge pendulum swaying back to what Holly might

975
00:45:33,022 --> 00:45:36,422
Speaker 1: have called scary skinny. And I wonder if it's because

976
00:45:36,422 --> 00:45:39,421
Speaker 1: we can all wear dupes of high fashion now we've

977
00:45:39,462 --> 00:45:43,182
Speaker 1: got all the fast fashion retailers. So clothing can't differentiate

978
00:45:43,221 --> 00:45:47,462
Speaker 1: the special from the ordinary. But what can differentiate celebrities

979
00:45:47,502 --> 00:45:50,382
Speaker 1: and special people and rich people is the ability to

980
00:45:50,502 --> 00:45:53,262
Speaker 1: hew their body to whatever body shape is in fashion.

981
00:45:53,342 --> 00:45:56,382
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think it remains, and I know there'll be

982
00:45:56,422 --> 00:45:58,502
Speaker 2: people listening to this who are annoyed with us for

983
00:45:58,582 --> 00:46:01,981
Speaker 2: talking about it. They don't like us talk about women's bodies,

984
00:46:01,982 --> 00:46:03,861
Speaker 2: and they don't like us generalizing about weight, and I

985
00:46:03,862 --> 00:46:07,222
Speaker 2: totally understand that, but I think to where we started

986
00:46:07,261 --> 00:46:10,942
Speaker 2: this conversation, you can't ignore it anymore that the fashion

987
00:46:10,982 --> 00:46:13,341
Speaker 2: has changed. And we've talked a lot on this show

988
00:46:13,382 --> 00:46:16,422
Speaker 2: about how infuriating it is that women's bodies are subject

989
00:46:16,422 --> 00:46:18,941
Speaker 2: to fashion like boobs are in, boobs are out, bombs

990
00:46:18,942 --> 00:46:20,261
Speaker 2: are in, bums out, and you're like, well, damn it.

991
00:46:20,302 --> 00:46:21,102
Speaker 4: I've still got boobs.

992
00:46:21,582 --> 00:46:24,822
Speaker 2: You know, whatever it is, you cannot argue that skinny

993
00:46:24,982 --> 00:46:25,542
Speaker 2: is not back.

994
00:46:25,701 --> 00:46:27,821
Speaker 4: And we've been through it before. What did we learn?

995
00:46:28,022 --> 00:46:28,221
Speaker 4: You know?

996
00:46:28,382 --> 00:46:32,901
Speaker 3: I think I would argue though that lollipop heads, scaletal, scary.

997
00:46:32,942 --> 00:46:36,862
Speaker 3: None of those words are helpful or do any good

998
00:46:36,902 --> 00:46:39,421
Speaker 3: in changing the conversation about women's relationships with their body.

999
00:46:39,502 --> 00:46:42,062
Speaker 2: And they just turned down munition to people who want

1000
00:46:42,102 --> 00:46:48,661
Speaker 2: to mock and denigrate. I agree. A massive thank you

1001
00:46:48,701 --> 00:46:50,861
Speaker 2: out Louders for being here with us. Of course, it's

1002
00:46:50,862 --> 00:46:52,381
Speaker 2: going to be a massive week next week. We've still

1003
00:46:52,382 --> 00:46:53,942
Speaker 2: got our Friday episode to come, of course, but it

1004
00:46:53,942 --> 00:46:56,702
Speaker 2: is the Oscars on Monday, yes, and Megan's show drops.

1005
00:46:57,181 --> 00:46:59,741
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to sleep between here

1006
00:46:59,862 --> 00:47:00,501
Speaker 2: and next week.

1007
00:47:00,542 --> 00:47:02,702
Speaker 3: When you hear me on Friday, I'll be like Holly

1008
00:47:02,741 --> 00:47:03,822
Speaker 3: has cleaned her diary.

1009
00:47:04,502 --> 00:47:05,982
Speaker 1: It's a big way. It's excited.

1010
00:47:05,982 --> 00:47:06,902
Speaker 5: It's a Holly Olympics.

1011
00:47:07,062 --> 00:47:09,221
Speaker 2: Thank you Amelia Lester for filling in for our me

1012
00:47:09,382 --> 00:47:12,062
Speaker 2: to thanks for having me always a pleasure, and of

1013
00:47:12,062 --> 00:47:14,022
Speaker 2: course for filling in for me last week. Thank you

1014
00:47:14,062 --> 00:47:15,902
Speaker 2: to the out Louders, and thank you to our fabulous

1015
00:47:15,942 --> 00:47:17,661
Speaker 2: team for putting the show together, we will be back

1016
00:47:17,661 --> 00:47:18,502
Speaker 2: in your ears tomorrow.

1017
00:47:18,822 --> 00:47:25,741
Speaker 3: Bye bye,