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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: I had messages from doctors all around the world saying

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Speaker 2: until I read that in your book, I thought that

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Speaker 2: I was the first doctor who'd ever cried in the

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Speaker 2: locker room. But the truth of it is that every

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Speaker 2: single doctor pretty much ends up crying in a locker room.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm kateline Brook. Welcome to No Filter. You know,

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Speaker 1: we don't always think of doctors as people, and it's

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Speaker 1: not just because so many of them have a God complex.

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Speaker 1: It's that we don't often think that they have emotions

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Speaker 1: or hard days and the weight of life altering moments

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Speaker 1: pressing down on them. And it's probably because when we

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Speaker 1: see doctors it's because we're in a time of need ourselves.

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Speaker 1: But doctors absorbed situations that would stop most of us

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Speaker 1: in our tracks, yet they are expected to keep going

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Speaker 1: shift after shift to cope with the intensity of his work.

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Speaker 1: My guest today, Adam Kay, started keeping a diary during

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Speaker 1: his years as a junior doctor in the NHS in

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Speaker 1: the UK, which has a similar healthcare setup to our

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Speaker 1: public system here. In it, Adam Kay documented everything the absurd,

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Speaker 1: like the elaborate excuses people give for why certain objects

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Speaker 1: end up in their bot bots, their heartwarming, like the

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Speaker 1: thousands of babies he delivered, and the devastating, the moments

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Speaker 1: when outcomes were not what they should have been. But

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Speaker 1: after years of exhaustion, relentless double shifts, and a system

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Speaker 1: that offered little or no support, Adam reached his breaking point.

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Speaker 1: He left medicine completely burned. The diary where he once

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Speaker 1: scribbled his unfiltered thoughts became This Is Going to Hurt,

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Speaker 1: a book that not only became an unexpected best seller

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Speaker 1: but also inspired a TV series starring Ben Wishaw. His

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Speaker 1: writing is brutally honest, darkly funny, deeply human, capturing the

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Speaker 1: sleepless desperation of someone trying to do right by his

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Speaker 1: patients while barely holding his personal life together or barely

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Speaker 1: able to keep his eyes open. There's no anesthetic to

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Speaker 1: soften the raw truths he lays bare. In my conversation

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Speaker 1: with Adam, we talk about why telling the truth about

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Speaker 1: the public health system matters, how he turned his career

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Speaker 1: as a doctor into one as a best selling writer

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Speaker 1: and stand up comedian and what he's learnt along the way.

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Speaker 1: Hello doctor, thank you doctor.

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Speaker 2: No another could I only use doctor from fans to

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Speaker 2: get an upgrade on a plane, and that never works,

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Speaker 2: so I can just add on.

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Speaker 1: And also that would come with its attendant dangers because

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Speaker 1: if you've got an upgrade on the basis that they

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Speaker 1: know you're a doctor, oh yeah, when they say send

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Speaker 1: out that is there a doctor on board?

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Speaker 3: I was having that discussion with my family not long ago.

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Speaker 3: What do you do?

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Speaker 2: So my route is I just get absolutely hammered the

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Speaker 2: second I sit on the plane, so that if anyone

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Speaker 2: says is they're a doctor, and I am the only

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Speaker 2: person who's done that degree, I can say I'm.

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Speaker 3: Technically a doctor.

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Speaker 2: I've not worked for fourteen years and I'm nine bloody

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Speaker 2: Mary's deep.

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Speaker 3: So it's a real role of to die. So I

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Speaker 3: leave it up to them at that stage.

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Speaker 2: My dad said he was on a an advertise in

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Speaker 2: airlines here, so he was on he was on British

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Speaker 2: Airways and they were like, is there a doctor.

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Speaker 3: He's retired doctor. No one else was like oh no.

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Speaker 2: So they said, okay, there's someone that they had like

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Speaker 2: a tiny rash or something and who's like, oh, if

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Speaker 2: he got like some antihistamines and pyrotal or something.

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Speaker 3: They were like, yeah, let's have a look in the box.

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Speaker 2: So here's and so he gave them these said okay, Pope,

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Speaker 2: your ash goes away, sat back down. They got being

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Speaker 2: back in touch with him and gave him like two

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Speaker 2: business class flights.

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Speaker 3: To anywhere in the world as a thank you.

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Speaker 2: And then one of my brothers said that he was

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Speaker 2: on a flight on a on a less I won't

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Speaker 2: name them because they don't come out on the best leline,

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Speaker 2: a budget airline, and there was some absolute, you know, catastrophe,

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Speaker 2: and he was doing CPR on a on a patient.

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Speaker 2: He was alternating with another adopt who they're doing CPR

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Speaker 2: and a patient for like two hours until they could

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Speaker 2: found and then at the at the end, they didn't

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Speaker 2: even give him a like a free pack of pretzels

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Speaker 2: or something, Thanks very much, see you later.

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Speaker 1: You know, that is where you are reminded that medicine

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Speaker 1: is a calling.

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Speaker 2: It's a calling. You're not doing it. You're not doing

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Speaker 2: it for the pretzels.

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Speaker 1: No, you're not doing it for the pretzels, not even

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Speaker 1: for the chocolate covered ones or the peanut butter filled ones.

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Speaker 1: But the reason that you have joined us today it

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Speaker 1: is because your body of work is so unusual. This

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Speaker 1: is going to hurt, not this conversation, but this book

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Speaker 1: that you have written about you being a doctor and

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Speaker 1: not just being a doctor but part of a familial

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Speaker 1: legacy and work at the NHS, which is I gather

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Speaker 1: some kind of it's a battle ground, yes, where all

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Speaker 1: of Britain comes together.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's a that's a good description.

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Speaker 1: Can you just talk us through how you decided to

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Speaker 1: become a doctor. Now you said your dad was a doctor,

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Speaker 1: your brother's a doctor.

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Speaker 2: Oh like everywhere I look those doctors and that's probably

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Speaker 2: the answer. So in the UK, your medicine's almost exclusively

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Speaker 2: an undergraduate degree.

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Speaker 3: So you're going into medical school as an eighteen year.

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Speaker 2: Old, which means means they want various exams for you

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Speaker 2: to sit first, and you choose them when you're sixteen

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Speaker 2: and sixteens are very bad age to decide to do anything.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's an idiot at sixteen, and so you're making a

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Speaker 2: decision at an age where you can't really make a

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Speaker 2: disc There's a thing in medicine, you know, informed consent,

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Speaker 2: So you need an operation, whatever it is. You sign

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Speaker 2: a consent form which says, here's why would you want

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Speaker 2: to do it. These are the benefits. Here are the risks,

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Speaker 2: bleeding infection, having an anesthetic, damaging other structure of blah

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Speaker 2: blah blah, And then you weigh it all up and

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Speaker 2: you go, yeah, fine, I still do it. Sign my

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Speaker 2: name off we go. When you're applying to medicine, no

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Speaker 2: one at any point mentions the other side of the coin,

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Speaker 2: particularly to a teenager. So you're going in pretty pretty blind.

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Speaker 2: And so you know the fact that I had adoctors

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Speaker 2: in my family. It's a very bad reason to be adopted.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's probably much worse. And then like enjoying

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Speaker 2: er or something, and so went in not knowing what

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Speaker 2: I was expecting. I think most of the rest of

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Speaker 2: the world. Medicine's a postgraduate degree. So you're going in

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Speaker 2: like age twenty one or something, right, and then you're

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Speaker 2: still an idiot when you're twenty one. Obviously no offense

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Speaker 2: to your twenty one year old listeners, but at least

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Speaker 2: you've probably had to leave your parents' house and earn

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Speaker 2: a bit of money and maybe had a relationship and

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Speaker 2: all these things that slightly broad enight your horizon on

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Speaker 2: the world. But I went in with very narrow horizons,

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Speaker 2: no idea what the job was going to be, and

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Speaker 2: it probably unexpected that the story didn't have a happy ending.

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Speaker 1: Well, it kind of had a happy ending for you,

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Speaker 1: because it's you've actually I gather through your book and

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Speaker 1: your subsequent work changed certain aspects of how doctors are

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Speaker 1: regarding how they treated, particularly the innhase in the front

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Speaker 1: lines like some sort of cannon fodder. Found it staggering

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Speaker 1: just the status of how many hours you were working

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Speaker 1: as a trainee doctor, and in fact it every even

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Speaker 1: supposedly rising through the ranks, how many hours were you working, and.

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Speaker 2: I think it topped out about like ninety four ninety

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Speaker 2: five hours a week, which it's seen as I think

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Speaker 2: things are slightly better now, but it was seen as

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Speaker 2: a rite of passage that you know, I had to

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Speaker 2: do it, so you have to do it, which is

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Speaker 2: a terrible you know, it's a terrible reason to do anything,

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Speaker 2: and it's not safe basically, And I remember there was

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Speaker 2: one moment where I was working on a label ward,

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Speaker 2: which is where I spent the vast petority of my

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Speaker 2: career and they had, for some reason taken away like

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Speaker 2: the the on call room where you could sleep like

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Speaker 2: it never got particular guy, but you'd like be able

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Speaker 2: to grab the odds twenty minutes, and they took.

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Speaker 3: It away, and we were like, why have you taken

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Speaker 3: this away?

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Speaker 2: They were like, well, you're being paid to be at work,

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Speaker 2: so you should be at work, not napping.

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Speaker 3: Wanted to say to these.

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Speaker 2: People, if it was you or your partner or wife,

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Speaker 2: whatever it is, having the cesarean section, would you rather

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Speaker 2: that doctor had been able to grab twenty minutes sleep

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Speaker 2: beforehand or just being forced to work for, you know,

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Speaker 2: twelve hours straight for the fifth day in the row.

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Speaker 2: But you know, the NHS, I think is the most

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Speaker 2: amazing system and concept. It's based on the fact that

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Speaker 2: healthcare is delivered based on a clinical need, never based

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Speaker 2: on your bank balance. But at the same time, they're

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Speaker 2: not a good employer, so they don't treat their staff

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Speaker 2: very well historically.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know, I find it.

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Speaker 2: I find it the slight paradox that this organization that

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Speaker 2: are all about looking after people and helping people forget

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Speaker 2: that a bit when it comes to their own.

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Speaker 1: When you decided to become a doctor. Then what did

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Speaker 1: your family say?

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Speaker 2: My family were in charge of this decision, right, So

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Speaker 2: I was I think everyone wants the best for their children. Yes,

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Speaker 2: I've got two young children, myself very young, and so

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Speaker 2: I'm now of suddenly realizing that it sort of totally

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Speaker 2: recalibates your life. Then it's all about what's best for

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Speaker 2: your kids. What was seen as best for me was

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Speaker 2: a safe, sensible profession. So my parents are you know,

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Speaker 2: they're from an immigrants population, Polish immigrant population, and it's

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Speaker 2: about making you know the best for you know, of

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Speaker 2: your life, improving yourself and making a difference. And doctor, lawyer,

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Speaker 2: architect accounted like this sort of fairly small list of professions.

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Speaker 2: I'm the eldest of four siblings, and the degrees we

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Speaker 2: did were medicine, medicine, law, medicine, And that was my

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Speaker 2: parents trying to make sure that we had sensible traits.

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Speaker 2: My partner is also the eldest of four, and his

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Speaker 2: dad worked in the advertising trade, sort of creative world,

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Speaker 2: which my parents just had no idea of. I mean

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Speaker 2: there's none of them mates, you know, did anything like that.

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Speaker 2: And so the best for their children were slightly different.

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Speaker 2: So there now, producer, producer, musician, producer.

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Speaker 1: Ah.

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Speaker 2: I don't begrudge them pushing me or strong arming me

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Speaker 2: into that world, but ultimately, I think left to my

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Speaker 2: own devices, I probably wouldn't have found al over the.

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Speaker 1: World that you find yourself entering in you that you recount,

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Speaker 1: and how brilliant was this Even though you came from

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Speaker 1: this very traad medical family. Obviously, the creative in you

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Speaker 1: was very strong, because you journaled even at your most exhausted.

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Speaker 1: You kept a record of what had happened every day,

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Speaker 1: and you write down funny stories and some of them

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Speaker 1: heartbreaking stories. Do you think even then that there was

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Speaker 1: something in you that knew that you weren't you just

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Speaker 1: weren't that standard cut out of a doctor.

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Speaker 2: I think I thought I was just someone who had

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Speaker 2: a lot of hobbies, whereas what I actually had was

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Speaker 2: something creative trying to burst out and take over.

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Speaker 3: And it's interesting that you know why I was writing

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Speaker 3: this stuff down.

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Speaker 2: I think in retrospect it was probably my form of therapy,

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Speaker 2: looking for the light amongst the dark, because going back

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Speaker 2: through my diaries at the start, there were mostly the funny, silly,

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Speaker 2: disgusting stories, and it actually took a few years before

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Speaker 2: they became more reflective or I started talking about more

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Speaker 2: of the tough stuff that had happened in my in

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Speaker 2: my life. Medical school, for whatever reason, when I was there,

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Speaker 2: an afternoon a week for six years was spent teaching

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Speaker 2: us communication skills, which is good and right, because that's

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Speaker 2: the cornerstone of what you do. It's about speaking to patients.

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Speaker 2: But not once in all of that time was there

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Speaker 2: a single minute spent telling us, Oh, and by the way,

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Speaker 2: at some point, you're going to have some really bad days,

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Speaker 2: and this is how you're going to have to cope.

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Speaker 2: Here are some strategies for that. And in the absence

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Speaker 2: of being taught any way of coping, you land in

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Speaker 2: the deep end and have to improvise with your own

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Speaker 2: And I guess what I did then is exactly the

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Speaker 2: same as what I do now, which is writing this

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Speaker 2: stuff down and drinking white wine.

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Speaker 3: And both of those work.

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Speaker 2: Neither of them are the gold standard, but you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a way of dealing with stuff.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's the self medicating thing that also, and possibly

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Speaker 1: for the reason that you that you've just referred to,

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Speaker 1: is a trap that ensnares a lot of doctors is

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Speaker 1: the self medicating.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And I think doctors have terrible what's called

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Speaker 2: health seeking behavior. Like I've had so many occasions in

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Speaker 2: my in my life where I've just not seen a

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Speaker 2: doctor when I when I should, I've just been I've

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Speaker 2: made myself ill, both physically and mentally because of I

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Speaker 2: think it's suddenly you get taught at medical school. You're

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Speaker 2: a bloody doctor. Your bloody get on with it, and

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Speaker 2: that extends to your own health. You sort of think

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Speaker 2: it's embarrassing being the doctor who speaks to another doctor.

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Speaker 2: It'd be like a car mechanic taking the car to

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Speaker 2: different mechanics and say, I don't know what's wrong with it.

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Speaker 2: And so you've got a bit of that in you.

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Speaker 3: You just plow one and that's never the right thing

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Speaker 3: to do.

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Speaker 1: The ideology I find very interesting because you're dealing with

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Speaker 1: people who have come to you because they're in need,

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Speaker 1: and you're on the one hand the person that has

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Speaker 1: to present as the person who can help. But then

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Speaker 1: on the other side of that, when that door closes,

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Speaker 1: no matter how traumatic that experience and that exchange may

264
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Speaker 1: have been, which in some cases does result in death,

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Speaker 1: there's no one on the other side of that, looking

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Speaker 1: after you in your hour of need.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mean you put it like that very eloquently,

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Speaker 2: and it makes no sense at all. I don't think

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Speaker 2: there's any way of framing it where it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: The onner where I can rationalize it is that we

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Speaker 2: don't like to think of our doctors as being human

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Speaker 2: because humans make mistakes, and so you sort of, as

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Speaker 2: the doctors, start to believe that that myth that you're

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Speaker 2: somehow other and you don't make mistakes. But humans do

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Speaker 2: make mistakes, and they get sick and they get sad.

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Speaker 3: And here's an example, and this.

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Speaker 2: Is patients not thinking of their doctors as humans, which

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Speaker 2: is the same phenomenon as the bosses. So I did

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Speaker 2: this prenatal clinic once a week, and it always ran late,

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Speaker 2: so there was just this mismatch of number of doctor,

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Speaker 2: number of patients.

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Speaker 3: Should have ended at five, it ended at seven or eight,

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Speaker 3: which is you know, this was rough.

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Speaker 2: And so I did this for a year, and every

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Speaker 2: single week when it came to six or seven o'clock,

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Speaker 2: patients will be true. My year off quite rightly saying

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Speaker 2: I have been waiting this long. I've seen their childcares

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Speaker 2: all the cars on the meter, and I've apologized not

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Speaker 2: once in a year of doing that, clinicted a single

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Speaker 2: patient saying, you probably don't want to be here either,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't. No one wants to be at work

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Speaker 2: three hours late. But you don't think of your doctor

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Speaker 2: as a person who's also got a life back home.

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Speaker 2: They're just part of this organization. And the other illustration

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Speaker 2: I think of that is I wrote in this book,

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Speaker 2: I think fairly openly and honestly about struggles I'd had,

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Speaker 2: which is something that doctors traditionally don't talk a whole

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Speaker 2: load about, And as soon as it came out, I

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Speaker 2: had messages from doctors all around the world saying, until

300
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Speaker 2: I read that in your book, I thought that I

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Speaker 2: was the first doctor who'd ever cried in the toilet,

302
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Speaker 2: who ever cried in the locker room. But the truth

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Speaker 2: of it is that every single doctor pretty much ends

304
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Speaker 2: up crying in a locker room.

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Speaker 3: But the fact that nobody talks about it.

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Speaker 2: Means that, on top of whatever bad day just had

307
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Speaker 2: that's led you to that position, you now.

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Speaker 3: Also feel, I don't know that you're unique in struggling.

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Speaker 2: That's really that's very othering and it makes a bad

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Speaker 2: day even worse. But ultimately, what you know, the book,

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Speaker 2: the show, Everything I Do is you know, it sells

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Speaker 2: itself on being funny, and I guess it is, yes,

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Speaker 2: But ultimately, underneath it, it's hopefully just a reminder that

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Speaker 2: this is just a bunch of flawed human beings muddling

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Speaker 2: along and doing their best and sometimes you know, not

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Speaker 2: managing to get through their day.

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Speaker 1: Right, but mostly managing to get through the day and

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Speaker 1: managing to get other people through, managing to do the

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Speaker 1: work of the doctor, which is healing. And that's quite remarkable.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I reflect on that sometimes that but it

322
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Speaker 2: ultimately comes down to the fact that so I'd leave

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Speaker 2: a labor ward three hours later or whatever.

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Speaker 3: I'd be still half covered in blood.

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Speaker 4: Because I had time to wash it off, and the

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Speaker 4: dinner's in the dog and I have to wind the

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Speaker 4: window down and have the radio blow and just so

328
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Speaker 4: I can stay awake on the drive home.

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Speaker 2: But you still have a smile on your face because

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Speaker 2: you know, working on a labor ward, you know, you know,

331
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Speaker 2: having that unique role helping families, you know, bringing babies

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Speaker 2: into the world. You know, potentially you know, resolving some

333
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Speaker 2: difficult situation for a mum or a baby. I mean,

334
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Speaker 2: that is amazing, and that's the reason if you didn't

335
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Speaker 2: have those highs, there's no reason to come back to

336
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Speaker 2: work the next day, given the number of blows there are.

337
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Speaker 1: And also, I think humor is a great connector. And

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Speaker 1: I do know. I've got girlfriends who own nurses, and

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Speaker 1: I have to say they have a very dark sense

340
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Speaker 1: of humor. Something about exposure to body bodily fluids makes

341
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Speaker 1: people's sense of humors kind of going to the normal

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Speaker 1: culder sex.

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Speaker 2: Oh, totally, And the humor is one of the things

344
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Speaker 2: that's fairly universal. And ultimately I suspect it comes down

345
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Speaker 2: to this coping mechanism idea. In the absence of someone

346
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Speaker 2: you know giving you the sensible ABCD, this is what

347
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Speaker 2: you need to do. You need to have a debef

348
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Speaker 2: you need to take some time that needs to speak

349
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Speaker 2: to a counsel and all that. People are just like, well,

350
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Speaker 2: let's just have a joke about it, because that's a

351
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Speaker 2: lot better than nothing. And so that's what I was

352
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Speaker 2: focusing on when I was writing writing my writing these

353
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Speaker 2: stories down in Madari's.

354
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Speaker 1: Humor is just such a great decompressor.

355
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it's it's absolutely, it's absolutely vital. And yeah,

356
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Speaker 2: and I'm very glad that I leant into it because

357
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Speaker 2: you know, as well as giving me this this new

358
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Speaker 2: career I now have, I suspect it was one of

359
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Speaker 2: the the main reasons I was able to keep plowing on.

360
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Speaker 1: There is so much more to my conversation with Adam Kay.

361
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Speaker 1: After this short break, we go into why he left

362
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Speaker 1: the medical industry and how his family of medical professionals responded. Hint,

363
00:20:28,805 --> 00:20:39,405
Speaker 1: they weren't happy. You know what. I'm very glad about

364
00:20:39,925 --> 00:20:41,805
Speaker 1: that people put things up their bottoms.

365
00:20:43,205 --> 00:20:45,285
Speaker 3: Yeah, they absolutely do.

366
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Speaker 1: That's got to be one of the top three questions. Surely,

367
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Speaker 1: it's an.

368
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Speaker 2: Interesting one, this one, because I've been I've written up

369
00:20:53,285 --> 00:20:58,005
Speaker 2: all of my exciting objects in orifice stories and there's

370
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Speaker 2: there's no shortage of those in my show whatever. Yeah,

371
00:21:02,645 --> 00:21:06,205
Speaker 2: Sometimes when i'm you know, i'm speaking to interviewed or whatever,

372
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Speaker 2: someone will say, oh, this one where someone could have

373
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Speaker 2: a toilet blush, kinder.

374
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Speaker 3: Egg or whatever it is.

375
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Speaker 2: And when I'm speaking to doctors, like if i'm you know,

376
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Speaker 2: if I do a show and I'm signing books afterwards

377
00:21:18,885 --> 00:21:21,205
Speaker 2: or whatever, someone will come up to me and what

378
00:21:21,245 --> 00:21:24,365
Speaker 2: they said, that's nothing. Here's my top five things I've

379
00:21:24,365 --> 00:21:26,845
Speaker 2: removed from inside a face. I think it's a very

380
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Speaker 2: competitive part of medicine.

381
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Speaker 1: And what do they what do they trump your toilet

382
00:21:31,165 --> 00:21:34,165
Speaker 1: brush with? I mean, that's hard to try.

383
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Speaker 2: I don't think I don't think anyone has beaten the

384
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Speaker 2: kinderreg story, to be honest, an Australian phenomenon.

385
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Speaker 3: Little toy in the little toy.

386
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so's so slippery, I imagine.

387
00:21:50,605 --> 00:21:55,285
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little plastic egg thing. So this is

388
00:21:55,285 --> 00:22:00,725
Speaker 2: a story from February to twenty ninth, two thousand and four.

389
00:22:01,405 --> 00:22:05,085
Speaker 2: So this sort of leap you where in the UK surpi.

390
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Speaker 2: There's this very old fashioned tradition that is sort of

391
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Speaker 2: I'm sure not observed in what we used to be

392
00:22:10,165 --> 00:22:12,365
Speaker 2: a thing where that was the day of the year,

393
00:22:12,885 --> 00:22:15,965
Speaker 2: it was considered traditional for the woman to propose to

394
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Speaker 2: the man rather than vice versa. So this is this,

395
00:22:19,125 --> 00:22:23,085
Speaker 2: you know, sort of slightly Victorian whatever idea. Anyway, this

396
00:22:23,325 --> 00:22:26,885
Speaker 2: particular patient of mine decided that she was going to

397
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Speaker 2: take this opportunity to to propose and put an engagement

398
00:22:32,445 --> 00:22:35,925
Speaker 2: ring inside the plastic bit from inside the kinderreggs and

399
00:22:36,005 --> 00:22:40,645
Speaker 2: inserted the egg vaginally, and the plan would be that

400
00:22:40,725 --> 00:22:45,605
Speaker 2: her boyfriend would locate it, remove it, and then she

401
00:22:45,605 --> 00:22:47,125
Speaker 2: would get down on one knee.

402
00:22:47,245 --> 00:22:50,845
Speaker 1: All right, right, there'd be an element of surprise, obviously.

403
00:22:50,485 --> 00:22:54,725
Speaker 3: Imagine there'd be a huge element of surprise. So she

404
00:22:54,845 --> 00:22:55,325
Speaker 3: does this.

405
00:22:55,765 --> 00:23:00,805
Speaker 2: Unfortunately it sort of manages to wedge itself like sideways,

406
00:23:00,925 --> 00:23:03,805
Speaker 2: and it gets you know, he can't remove it, and

407
00:23:03,845 --> 00:23:06,005
Speaker 2: then she has again. She can't remember it. She's not

408
00:23:06,165 --> 00:23:09,485
Speaker 2: told him what's going on at this point, and then

409
00:23:09,725 --> 00:23:13,885
Speaker 2: eventually decides she needs to pop to the hospital, the

410
00:23:13,925 --> 00:23:15,845
Speaker 2: emergency department where she meets me and we you know,

411
00:23:15,965 --> 00:23:19,765
Speaker 2: hang out in cubable three and there's a fairly easy delivery.

412
00:23:19,765 --> 00:23:23,005
Speaker 2: We've got a pair of spongeholding forceps remove it and

413
00:23:23,045 --> 00:23:24,085
Speaker 2: then sorry, how.

414
00:23:23,965 --> 00:23:26,005
Speaker 1: Did she tell you? Did she tell you the whole story?

415
00:23:26,605 --> 00:23:29,445
Speaker 2: She said there's something up there, no further details. She

416
00:23:29,485 --> 00:23:32,005
Speaker 2: didn't want to run the surprise for any of us.

417
00:23:32,205 --> 00:23:34,725
Speaker 2: You've got a poker face, you don't ask too many questions.

418
00:23:34,885 --> 00:23:37,685
Speaker 2: I've got another thirty eight patients to see. Let's just

419
00:23:37,925 --> 00:23:40,565
Speaker 2: remove whatever it is. Checks, she's all right, get her

420
00:23:40,605 --> 00:23:44,485
Speaker 2: home on we go, So remove this this thing and

421
00:23:44,525 --> 00:23:46,565
Speaker 2: about to chuck it in the bin. She says, oh no, no, no,

422
00:23:46,725 --> 00:23:49,685
Speaker 2: atnd of that, he needs to open it. Oh god,

423
00:23:50,365 --> 00:23:54,125
Speaker 2: So so I passed him a pair of Latex gloves,

424
00:23:54,965 --> 00:23:57,925
Speaker 2: you know, sand last in the last remnant of romance

425
00:23:57,965 --> 00:24:04,605
Speaker 2: from this situation. He puts them on, opens it up,

426
00:24:04,885 --> 00:24:08,445
Speaker 2: engagement ring, he said, yes, presumably out of fear at

427
00:24:08,485 --> 00:24:09,205
Speaker 2: this stage.

428
00:24:09,525 --> 00:24:14,405
Speaker 3: Uh what's what's what's she likely to do? As interest

429
00:24:14,485 --> 00:24:16,205
Speaker 3: as no?

430
00:24:17,285 --> 00:24:19,445
Speaker 2: So, but yeah, there's I mean, there's a lot of

431
00:24:19,605 --> 00:24:21,525
Speaker 2: a lot of the Christmas was very good for this

432
00:24:21,685 --> 00:24:25,285
Speaker 2: sort of stuff happening. Maybe it's like a special special

433
00:24:25,325 --> 00:24:29,005
Speaker 2: occasion thing. But the worst I had was someone who

434
00:24:29,485 --> 00:24:35,565
Speaker 2: put a string of Christmas lights inside and then switch

435
00:24:35,645 --> 00:24:41,365
Speaker 2: them on, causing like all these little burns. Oh, bringing

436
00:24:41,765 --> 00:24:44,285
Speaker 2: new mean to the phrase I put the Christmas lights

437
00:24:44,325 --> 00:24:47,405
Speaker 2: up myself. And what else we had we've had.

438
00:24:47,885 --> 00:24:51,525
Speaker 1: The remote control. I love that you say people would

439
00:24:51,525 --> 00:24:54,925
Speaker 1: always come to you with stories about it's always you.

440
00:24:55,085 --> 00:24:59,205
Speaker 1: I think you refer to it as Eiffel Eiffel tower syndrome.

441
00:24:59,325 --> 00:25:00,565
Speaker 1: I feel I fail.

442
00:25:00,805 --> 00:25:02,725
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And the.

443
00:25:02,645 --> 00:25:05,405
Speaker 1: Remote control one sounded quite plausible.

444
00:25:05,285 --> 00:25:11,205
Speaker 2: Until until because I mean, I mean basically one, don't

445
00:25:11,325 --> 00:25:13,525
Speaker 2: lie to your dot it's never helpful. They're trying to

446
00:25:13,605 --> 00:25:16,605
Speaker 2: they're on your team. And also they're not going to

447
00:25:17,205 --> 00:25:18,645
Speaker 2: I mean i'd say they're not going to remember it.

448
00:25:18,685 --> 00:25:20,565
Speaker 2: They might be me and just write it down a little.

449
00:25:20,365 --> 00:25:20,965
Speaker 3: Bit of books.

450
00:25:21,485 --> 00:25:25,565
Speaker 2: I mean, but I always anonymous level anyway, But it's

451
00:25:25,605 --> 00:25:28,085
Speaker 2: just unhelpful, just makes being slower and patients decide they

452
00:25:28,085 --> 00:25:30,245
Speaker 2: have to spare our blushes or like we've seen worse.

453
00:25:30,285 --> 00:25:31,805
Speaker 3: We have one hundred per cent to well. But there

454
00:25:31,845 --> 00:25:35,365
Speaker 3: was one story when I could sort of believe it

455
00:25:35,405 --> 00:25:38,365
Speaker 3: because it wasn't a big remote control and it was

456
00:25:38,445 --> 00:25:40,045
Speaker 3: wedged between sofa cushions.

457
00:25:40,045 --> 00:25:42,605
Speaker 5: This I was like, I mean, that could have happened,

458
00:25:42,645 --> 00:25:44,045
Speaker 5: and you know, you try and get it out and

459
00:25:44,085 --> 00:25:47,365
Speaker 5: when you do it push it's further anyway, So they

460
00:25:47,445 --> 00:25:48,565
Speaker 5: told me there's big preamble.

461
00:25:48,645 --> 00:25:51,125
Speaker 2: They sort of removed it, and when I removed it,

462
00:25:51,125 --> 00:25:52,485
Speaker 2: it did have a condom on it.

463
00:25:52,565 --> 00:25:58,045
Speaker 3: So that that maybe maybe went against anyway.

464
00:25:58,085 --> 00:26:00,245
Speaker 2: I mean, we could literally talk for ten hours just

465
00:26:00,325 --> 00:26:03,125
Speaker 2: on this topic. But maybe that's why so many people

466
00:26:03,125 --> 00:26:05,245
Speaker 2: bought the books. They just like to hear these stories.

467
00:26:05,565 --> 00:26:08,765
Speaker 1: It's much like I think how people watch reality TV

468
00:26:09,965 --> 00:26:12,525
Speaker 1: because you can kind of feel a bit superior in

469
00:26:12,645 --> 00:26:14,765
Speaker 1: some way to someone.

470
00:26:14,925 --> 00:26:18,405
Speaker 2: I mean, I've not invented the medical biography, not by

471
00:26:18,565 --> 00:26:22,125
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of years, but I think what I

472
00:26:22,205 --> 00:26:26,045
Speaker 2: leant into more is sort of the other side of

473
00:26:26,085 --> 00:26:29,485
Speaker 2: life when you're not at work, that you don't sometimes

474
00:26:29,485 --> 00:26:31,805
Speaker 2: see what happens when the doctor and the nurse and

475
00:26:31,845 --> 00:26:34,885
Speaker 2: a paramedic gets home and like what their actual life

476
00:26:34,885 --> 00:26:37,685
Speaker 2: looks like. So I think people have been quite interested

477
00:26:37,725 --> 00:26:40,485
Speaker 2: in sort of peering behind the blue curtain and learning

478
00:26:40,485 --> 00:26:42,805
Speaker 2: more about, you know, the staff room and the home.

479
00:26:42,645 --> 00:26:47,085
Speaker 1: Life, also the home life that you barely got to enjoy.

480
00:26:47,685 --> 00:26:51,365
Speaker 2: That's the thing for all sorts of reasons. Being a

481
00:26:51,405 --> 00:26:56,765
Speaker 2: doctor is all consuming. So in the UK you have

482
00:26:56,845 --> 00:27:01,485
Speaker 2: to move hospital every six or twelve months, which is

483
00:27:01,485 --> 00:27:04,085
Speaker 2: a good idea in theory took at some big hospital

484
00:27:04,165 --> 00:27:06,205
Speaker 2: or some small ones I'm experts in and that's so

485
00:27:06,325 --> 00:27:08,885
Speaker 2: that by the time you're a consultant the senior doctor,

486
00:27:09,045 --> 00:27:11,845
Speaker 2: you're the best possible version of yourself in terms of

487
00:27:11,885 --> 00:27:15,005
Speaker 2: your training. But they move you around a huge area.

488
00:27:15,805 --> 00:27:19,965
Speaker 2: You could be randomly allocated around Scotland, which is you know,

489
00:27:20,125 --> 00:27:23,605
Speaker 2: it's hard to find an apartment's.

490
00:27:22,525 --> 00:27:23,765
Speaker 3: Candy for all of Scotland.

491
00:27:23,805 --> 00:27:26,125
Speaker 2: It's like the equivalent to being told, oh, you're just

492
00:27:26,125 --> 00:27:29,005
Speaker 2: going to be working somewhere randomly New South Wales and

493
00:27:29,045 --> 00:27:31,245
Speaker 2: good luck finding a place that's handy for all that.

494
00:27:31,325 --> 00:27:34,045
Speaker 2: And so every six or twelve months you end up

495
00:27:34,285 --> 00:27:38,125
Speaker 2: moving sixty or seventy miles away, and which is okay

496
00:27:38,125 --> 00:27:40,005
Speaker 2: if you exist in a vacuum. But if you've got

497
00:27:40,045 --> 00:27:44,485
Speaker 2: a partner, they might say yes once to moving the

498
00:27:44,565 --> 00:27:46,725
Speaker 2: uproots in their lives, and they're going to say yes,

499
00:27:46,765 --> 00:27:50,365
Speaker 2: you know, six times in a row. And also there's

500
00:27:50,405 --> 00:27:53,805
Speaker 2: this thing where you become I don't know, so like

501
00:27:53,885 --> 00:27:58,725
Speaker 2: you're working a labor wordshift on paper. Your contract says

502
00:27:58,765 --> 00:28:01,605
Speaker 2: that you know you'll finish at five o'clock, but it's

503
00:28:01,605 --> 00:28:05,245
Speaker 2: never really five o'clock. There's some emergency and I guess

504
00:28:05,285 --> 00:28:07,445
Speaker 2: technically have a choice at five o'clock if there's someone

505
00:28:07,685 --> 00:28:10,925
Speaker 2: you know bleeding out, you could, but I mean, it'd

506
00:28:10,965 --> 00:28:12,965
Speaker 2: never really applied to medical school in the first place

507
00:28:13,005 --> 00:28:14,845
Speaker 2: if that was a real decision. So you end up

508
00:28:14,925 --> 00:28:16,925
Speaker 2: and there's not enough people to mop up and you know,

509
00:28:16,965 --> 00:28:19,045
Speaker 2: and to you know, to take your place.

510
00:28:19,165 --> 00:28:20,445
Speaker 3: There's no slack in the system.

511
00:28:20,525 --> 00:28:25,245
Speaker 2: So you keep helping this this patient and then suddenly

512
00:28:25,325 --> 00:28:27,885
Speaker 2: at seven point thirty and you're texting someone, I'm really

513
00:28:27,885 --> 00:28:29,645
Speaker 2: really sorry, I'm gonna have to bail on drinks this

514
00:28:29,725 --> 00:28:32,325
Speaker 2: evening because you know this happened the world and they

515
00:28:32,445 --> 00:28:35,725
Speaker 2: understand because you're a doctor and you know you're not

516
00:28:35,845 --> 00:28:39,765
Speaker 2: lying as you know some stuff that happened. Once you've

517
00:28:39,805 --> 00:28:43,605
Speaker 2: texted the same friend two or three times in a

518
00:28:43,725 --> 00:28:48,925
Speaker 2: row to counsel, you've become the flaky friend and they

519
00:28:49,005 --> 00:28:53,445
Speaker 2: just stop inviting you out. And so you see real time,

520
00:28:53,525 --> 00:28:55,565
Speaker 2: in your first year or two as a doctor, your

521
00:28:55,605 --> 00:29:03,125
Speaker 2: social circle just just shrinking to almost nothing. And when

522
00:29:03,125 --> 00:29:05,405
Speaker 2: you do get home, you're just you're just knackered. You

523
00:29:05,485 --> 00:29:09,125
Speaker 2: just want to have a nap. And so it does

524
00:29:09,805 --> 00:29:11,045
Speaker 2: does have this big impact.

525
00:29:11,565 --> 00:29:13,325
Speaker 1: Well, it goes back to the point that you were

526
00:29:13,325 --> 00:29:16,925
Speaker 1: saying that people don't necessarily think of their doctors as

527
00:29:17,005 --> 00:29:21,445
Speaker 1: being human. But what you're describing is a system that

528
00:29:21,685 --> 00:29:26,325
Speaker 1: also doesn't see its doctors as being human. And in Australia,

529
00:29:26,445 --> 00:29:28,885
Speaker 1: I understand why people see parallels with your book because

530
00:29:28,925 --> 00:29:34,725
Speaker 1: we also have praise be socialized medicine, so anybody can

531
00:29:34,765 --> 00:29:39,365
Speaker 1: get the treatment that they need, regardless of their ability

532
00:29:39,445 --> 00:29:44,285
Speaker 1: to pay. But what you need for that to work

533
00:29:45,125 --> 00:29:48,645
Speaker 1: is the best doctors in the world to be working

534
00:29:48,645 --> 00:29:53,765
Speaker 1: in the best conditions. If you are dehumanized, what does

535
00:29:53,805 --> 00:29:57,245
Speaker 1: that mean? Who am I coming in to see?

536
00:29:58,125 --> 00:29:58,645
Speaker 3: Exactly?

537
00:29:58,805 --> 00:30:03,965
Speaker 2: And ultimately they leave and I know for a fact

538
00:30:04,445 --> 00:30:07,325
Speaker 2: like I did, and I know for a fact that

539
00:30:07,605 --> 00:30:12,285
Speaker 2: Australia treats their doctor is better than the UK because

540
00:30:12,805 --> 00:30:18,005
Speaker 2: of the exodus of staff from the UK to Australia.

541
00:30:18,045 --> 00:30:21,085
Speaker 2: In two News even the number one and two places

542
00:30:21,565 --> 00:30:27,285
Speaker 2: that British doctors go to. Last year in the UK,

543
00:30:28,005 --> 00:30:32,085
Speaker 2: seventy seven zero doctors quit their jobs every single week.

544
00:30:32,445 --> 00:30:37,365
Speaker 2: That was three times as many doctors quit their jobs

545
00:30:37,405 --> 00:30:42,965
Speaker 2: as retired. Wow, it's a crisis in the retention of staff.

546
00:30:43,645 --> 00:30:46,845
Speaker 2: And there was a big thing about pay in the

547
00:30:46,925 --> 00:30:51,125
Speaker 2: UK and doctors end up going on strike and that

548
00:30:51,165 --> 00:30:54,645
Speaker 2: got resolved with the government and that was sorted out.

549
00:30:54,725 --> 00:30:58,645
Speaker 2: And doctors do get paid more on Australia than in

550
00:30:58,685 --> 00:31:00,925
Speaker 2: the UK. I think it's fair to say, but it

551
00:31:01,005 --> 00:31:04,085
Speaker 2: wasn't just about that. It's about how you're treated, how

552
00:31:04,085 --> 00:31:05,005
Speaker 2: you're looked after.

553
00:31:05,565 --> 00:31:06,685
Speaker 3: You know, I speak quite a lot.

554
00:31:06,605 --> 00:31:08,205
Speaker 2: About this, and you know I talk about it on

555
00:31:08,245 --> 00:31:10,605
Speaker 2: social media and people you know, tell me their own

556
00:31:10,605 --> 00:31:13,445
Speaker 2: stories of what had happened to them. So like someone

557
00:31:14,005 --> 00:31:16,525
Speaker 2: telling me that on the day of their own wedding,

558
00:31:16,805 --> 00:31:21,445
Speaker 2: which understandably they'd given, you know, I don't know how

559
00:31:21,445 --> 00:31:23,325
Speaker 2: whether it's six not three years noticed that they were

560
00:31:23,365 --> 00:31:26,125
Speaker 2: getting married. On this stage, they couldn't get the full

561
00:31:26,205 --> 00:31:29,845
Speaker 2: day off and they were only given the afternoon and

562
00:31:29,925 --> 00:31:32,205
Speaker 2: evening off, so they had to do a clinic in

563
00:31:32,245 --> 00:31:35,205
Speaker 2: the morning wearing their wedding care and makeup.

564
00:31:35,485 --> 00:31:37,165
Speaker 3: That is not looking after your style.

565
00:31:38,205 --> 00:31:42,485
Speaker 2: Someone who I know, who's I think fiance at the time,

566
00:31:43,005 --> 00:31:46,245
Speaker 2: became very ill and was admitted to an intensive K unit.

567
00:31:46,845 --> 00:31:49,645
Speaker 2: It's fine now, but I was admitted to intensive K

568
00:31:49,725 --> 00:31:55,605
Speaker 2: you obviously a very stressful time and said to her hospital, sorry,

569
00:31:55,645 --> 00:31:59,085
Speaker 2: I need to go and be supportive, and they said,

570
00:31:59,125 --> 00:32:02,805
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but that you do not get compassionate leave

571
00:32:03,245 --> 00:32:06,565
Speaker 2: unless it's a first degree relative or a spouse and

572
00:32:06,605 --> 00:32:10,645
Speaker 2: you're not married, so technically that wasn't given compassion at leave,

573
00:32:11,285 --> 00:32:14,765
Speaker 2: and so that is not looking after your staff properly.

574
00:32:15,205 --> 00:32:19,965
Speaker 2: It's about making sure that if something bad happens on

575
00:32:20,005 --> 00:32:25,445
Speaker 2: the ward, there is a debrief afterwards that it's all

576
00:32:25,485 --> 00:32:27,685
Speaker 2: sorts of things. It's about making sure you've got a

577
00:32:27,725 --> 00:32:30,045
Speaker 2: staff room, just a place, you know, even a knacked

578
00:32:30,045 --> 00:32:33,525
Speaker 2: old sofa in a sort of a thirty year old

579
00:32:33,605 --> 00:32:36,045
Speaker 2: kettle to make yourself a cup of coffee with some

580
00:32:36,085 --> 00:32:41,805
Speaker 2: horrable granules. It's just the very bare basics which places

581
00:32:41,845 --> 00:32:44,485
Speaker 2: don't have, like they close down the staff room.

582
00:32:45,045 --> 00:32:51,045
Speaker 1: I'm so curious about how there was never any sense

583
00:32:51,085 --> 00:32:51,845
Speaker 1: of mutiny.

584
00:32:52,645 --> 00:32:58,565
Speaker 2: I think the mutiny doesn't happen because it's ultimately about patients,

585
00:32:59,365 --> 00:33:02,845
Speaker 2: and patients suffer. If the doctors say that's it, I'm off,

586
00:33:03,165 --> 00:33:08,325
Speaker 2: and is still have a huge amount of guilt about

587
00:33:08,685 --> 00:33:12,245
Speaker 2: leaving the profe. Most people don't leave leave, they go

588
00:33:12,485 --> 00:33:14,445
Speaker 2: somewhere else, And I don't think there's any need to

589
00:33:14,445 --> 00:33:19,165
Speaker 2: have guilt about that, because you're helping human beings, you know,

590
00:33:19,245 --> 00:33:21,525
Speaker 2: wherever they are in the world or all one big family.

591
00:33:22,245 --> 00:33:25,645
Speaker 2: I have a huge amount of guilt because I'm not helping.

592
00:33:25,725 --> 00:33:27,925
Speaker 2: I mean, the arts obviously have the most enormous value,

593
00:33:27,925 --> 00:33:29,605
Speaker 2: but I'd have to have quite the ego as an

594
00:33:29,685 --> 00:33:33,005
Speaker 2: author or a comedian to say that what I do

595
00:33:33,165 --> 00:33:34,965
Speaker 2: on a day to day basis is in any way

596
00:33:35,005 --> 00:33:38,125
Speaker 2: comparable to saving a mum's life on a labor ward.

597
00:33:38,645 --> 00:33:41,525
Speaker 2: And it was that feeling that kept me in medicine,

598
00:33:41,725 --> 00:33:43,245
Speaker 2: probably longer than.

599
00:33:43,245 --> 00:33:45,765
Speaker 3: I might have otherwise done.

600
00:33:46,325 --> 00:33:48,365
Speaker 2: I had to wait until I had a big, you know,

601
00:33:49,245 --> 00:33:53,045
Speaker 2: acute thing happened. You know, the thousand cuts I was

602
00:33:53,085 --> 00:33:55,805
Speaker 2: having on a weekly basis. I was, I was just

603
00:33:55,885 --> 00:33:57,845
Speaker 2: I was just wearing those. It wasn't still a big

604
00:33:57,885 --> 00:34:00,245
Speaker 2: thing happened that I actually left. And I think it's

605
00:34:00,245 --> 00:34:04,045
Speaker 2: that guilt that means that I still, you know, do

606
00:34:04,165 --> 00:34:07,445
Speaker 2: what I can to support my former colleague who are

607
00:34:07,485 --> 00:34:09,325
Speaker 2: still working on the front line.

608
00:34:09,965 --> 00:34:13,725
Speaker 1: Hey, you know that period between when you left the NHS,

609
00:34:13,805 --> 00:34:18,005
Speaker 1: which as it happens, I mean at the end of

610
00:34:18,005 --> 00:34:22,605
Speaker 1: the book, it's just it's such a devastating thing. It's

611
00:34:22,605 --> 00:34:27,285
Speaker 1: the most devastating thing that I can imagine would happen

612
00:34:28,205 --> 00:34:31,685
Speaker 1: to the woman involved and also to the doctor who's

613
00:34:31,725 --> 00:34:35,565
Speaker 1: involved in a labor ward. Yeah, when that happened, and I,

614
00:34:36,325 --> 00:34:38,285
Speaker 1: like you said, prior to that, it had been the

615
00:34:38,325 --> 00:34:40,845
Speaker 1: death of a thousand cuts. Prior to that, you'd had

616
00:34:41,485 --> 00:34:43,445
Speaker 1: you know, your best friends saying I don't think there's

617
00:34:43,445 --> 00:34:45,965
Speaker 1: any point in us being friends anymore, because You've missed

618
00:34:45,965 --> 00:34:49,845
Speaker 1: so many of the significant things in my life, but

619
00:34:50,045 --> 00:34:52,765
Speaker 1: this and that was very moving. But this at the

620
00:34:52,885 --> 00:34:59,645
Speaker 1: end is just so hard to read, almost impossible for

621
00:34:59,725 --> 00:35:02,725
Speaker 1: you to come back from as a doctor. Is that

622
00:35:02,805 --> 00:35:03,805
Speaker 1: how it proved to be?

623
00:35:04,245 --> 00:35:04,645
Speaker 3: It is?

624
00:35:04,765 --> 00:35:06,765
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to go into huge details, but

625
00:35:06,845 --> 00:35:10,045
Speaker 2: essentially I was the most senior label doctor on a

626
00:35:10,085 --> 00:35:13,045
Speaker 2: particular shift at a weekend, and all you want from

627
00:35:13,205 --> 00:35:15,485
Speaker 2: every case as a barman and as a healthy mom

628
00:35:15,485 --> 00:35:17,125
Speaker 2: and a healthy baby, and this is one of these

629
00:35:17,845 --> 00:35:21,405
Speaker 2: terrible situations where we had neither of those two things.

630
00:35:21,485 --> 00:35:25,685
Speaker 2: And essentially I realized at that point that I didn't

631
00:35:25,685 --> 00:35:29,685
Speaker 2: have the emotional I don't know buffer to deal with

632
00:35:29,725 --> 00:35:30,365
Speaker 2: this stuff.

633
00:35:30,965 --> 00:35:32,045
Speaker 3: I could deal with a.

634
00:35:31,965 --> 00:35:34,965
Speaker 2: Certain level a bad day at work, but there was

635
00:35:34,965 --> 00:35:38,205
Speaker 2: a point at which it just absolutely knocked me over.

636
00:35:39,005 --> 00:35:42,605
Speaker 3: And it was obvious I wasn't coping.

637
00:35:42,645 --> 00:35:44,965
Speaker 2: I wasn't speaking to anyone about this, but my friends,

638
00:35:45,165 --> 00:35:47,485
Speaker 2: you know, people on the boards knew what had happened,

639
00:35:47,485 --> 00:35:51,445
Speaker 2: because you know, were travels quite quickly, and I wasn't

640
00:35:51,445 --> 00:35:54,205
Speaker 2: doing very well. I was I was being very overcautious

641
00:35:54,605 --> 00:35:57,125
Speaker 2: as a doctor because I never wanted this to ever happen.

642
00:35:57,165 --> 00:35:57,525
Speaker 3: Ever, again.

643
00:35:57,685 --> 00:36:00,805
Speaker 2: So I was thinking, I have to prevent this, but

644
00:36:00,965 --> 00:36:02,965
Speaker 2: everyone gets this is there in section as soon as

645
00:36:03,085 --> 00:36:04,805
Speaker 2: our baby's heart rate drops by one beat.

646
00:36:04,805 --> 00:36:08,285
Speaker 3: Permante was But being.

647
00:36:08,125 --> 00:36:11,925
Speaker 2: Overcautious is just as bad as being under cautious. And

648
00:36:12,725 --> 00:36:16,365
Speaker 2: I'd lost my confidence in myself and I'd stop being

649
00:36:16,605 --> 00:36:18,285
Speaker 2: if I have always a good doctor, I'd stop being

650
00:36:19,045 --> 00:36:22,045
Speaker 2: a good doctor in terms of my clinical judgment. And

651
00:36:24,005 --> 00:36:28,525
Speaker 2: people would want me to feel better about what has happened,

652
00:36:28,765 --> 00:36:34,045
Speaker 2: and they'd remind me that it doesn't matter how good

653
00:36:34,085 --> 00:36:37,965
Speaker 2: you are, how experienced you are, how many courses you take,

654
00:36:38,085 --> 00:36:41,365
Speaker 2: how many babies you've delivered, it's just a horrible fact

655
00:36:41,405 --> 00:36:44,765
Speaker 2: of the job that, through sheer awful luck, if you're

656
00:36:44,765 --> 00:36:47,045
Speaker 2: in that role, you will have some kind of big

657
00:36:47,045 --> 00:36:49,925
Speaker 2: disaster to every five or six years. And that's just

658
00:36:50,045 --> 00:36:52,205
Speaker 2: part of the job. And so it wasn't your fault,

659
00:36:52,765 --> 00:36:56,605
Speaker 2: just one of those things. But hearing that made me

660
00:36:56,885 --> 00:37:00,365
Speaker 2: realize that I couldn't face that kind of thing ever

661
00:37:00,365 --> 00:37:03,405
Speaker 2: happened as to me. Ever again, I've just you know,

662
00:37:03,765 --> 00:37:07,805
Speaker 2: I don't have the armor, the exoskeleton that whatever it is,

663
00:37:07,845 --> 00:37:11,685
Speaker 2: the coping mechanism to deal with it. And so I

664
00:37:12,565 --> 00:37:17,005
Speaker 2: stepped away what I thought would be six months while

665
00:37:17,045 --> 00:37:21,845
Speaker 2: I while I regrouped and and you know, got my

666
00:37:21,925 --> 00:37:26,525
Speaker 2: life back together, and I'm essentially still in those six

667
00:37:26,565 --> 00:37:28,285
Speaker 2: months off fourteen years later.

668
00:37:29,165 --> 00:37:33,365
Speaker 1: So how is that? Because well, you know, we've spoke

669
00:37:33,405 --> 00:37:37,885
Speaker 1: about the family dynasty, the doctor dynasty or the dynasty

670
00:37:38,765 --> 00:37:44,405
Speaker 1: for our non American listeners, how was that when you had, to,

671
00:37:45,165 --> 00:37:49,085
Speaker 1: for instance, tell your family that you were not returning

672
00:37:49,125 --> 00:37:50,405
Speaker 1: to medicine.

673
00:37:50,165 --> 00:37:55,485
Speaker 2: It went very badly, and again out of concern because

674
00:37:55,765 --> 00:37:57,525
Speaker 2: you know, what on earth am I doing?

675
00:37:57,525 --> 00:37:58,805
Speaker 3: Why would you give up this job?

676
00:37:59,165 --> 00:38:06,125
Speaker 2: And I suspect that if I were to announce to

677
00:38:06,205 --> 00:38:08,325
Speaker 2: you and I was going back to medicine, I would

678
00:38:08,365 --> 00:38:12,205
Speaker 2: hear the cheers my mother all the way. She'd hear

679
00:38:12,285 --> 00:38:15,845
Speaker 2: from Australia and we'd hear the cheer from England.

680
00:38:16,125 --> 00:38:18,005
Speaker 1: She must have thought you were a beautiful doctor.

681
00:38:18,125 --> 00:38:22,605
Speaker 2: Actually, she was very proud of my achievements in medicine.

682
00:38:23,045 --> 00:38:26,605
Speaker 2: Found it slightly harder to recognize what an achievement was

683
00:38:26,645 --> 00:38:28,325
Speaker 2: in a world that she wasn't part.

684
00:38:28,085 --> 00:38:32,805
Speaker 3: Of, like writing TV shows or writing books. But now

685
00:38:32,845 --> 00:38:36,005
Speaker 3: she sort of now she gets it. I mean, there

686
00:38:36,045 --> 00:38:38,125
Speaker 3: was a very long period of time where I was

687
00:38:38,685 --> 00:38:42,885
Speaker 3: a jobbing TV writer, so I'd write on episode four

688
00:38:42,965 --> 00:38:45,285
Speaker 3: of series six of someone else's sitcom or be a

689
00:38:45,285 --> 00:38:48,365
Speaker 3: script editor. And I was so fortunate as a writer

690
00:38:48,405 --> 00:38:51,285
Speaker 3: because the vast majority of writers don't get to write

691
00:38:51,565 --> 00:38:52,165
Speaker 3: full time.

692
00:38:52,245 --> 00:38:55,405
Speaker 2: So I was, of course, even though you know, no

693
00:38:55,405 --> 00:38:57,045
Speaker 2: one knew who I was, and I was just sort

694
00:38:57,085 --> 00:38:59,525
Speaker 2: of getting on with her. I was having a lovely time.

695
00:39:03,285 --> 00:39:06,405
Speaker 1: Coming up. Adam tells me whose decision it was to

696
00:39:06,565 --> 00:39:13,045
Speaker 1: casp beIN wi Shaw as himself spoiler, It was him.

697
00:39:13,205 --> 00:39:21,885
Speaker 1: Do I go anywhere? How did you transition into writing me?

698
00:39:22,245 --> 00:39:28,085
Speaker 5: That's an interesting question. So when I left medicine, everyone

699
00:39:28,165 --> 00:39:30,165
Speaker 5: was like, oh, you'll be fine. You'll be fine, Adam.

700
00:39:30,205 --> 00:39:33,445
Speaker 5: You've got loads of transferable skills. And then I thought about, like,

701
00:39:34,005 --> 00:39:36,045
Speaker 5: I don't know what these transferable skills are.

702
00:39:36,085 --> 00:39:38,925
Speaker 2: I could do cesarean sections, and who else wants that

703
00:39:39,085 --> 00:39:40,725
Speaker 2: other than hospitals.

704
00:39:42,805 --> 00:39:43,445
Speaker 3: Exactly.

705
00:39:46,405 --> 00:39:49,885
Speaker 2: And so the only other thing that I'd done, you know,

706
00:39:50,285 --> 00:39:52,965
Speaker 2: I said, So I went straight from school to medical school,

707
00:39:52,965 --> 00:39:55,125
Speaker 2: and they's straight into medicine there, straight into obstetrics, and

708
00:39:55,245 --> 00:39:57,485
Speaker 2: I hadn't taken a breath. The only thing that I

709
00:39:57,525 --> 00:40:00,805
Speaker 2: could identify that i'd done was at medical school doing

710
00:40:00,845 --> 00:40:04,445
Speaker 2: these like comedy shows, and so I was like, I'm

711
00:40:04,485 --> 00:40:07,205
Speaker 2: going to give comedy ago. I've done it a bit

712
00:40:07,245 --> 00:40:10,805
Speaker 2: before I enjoyed it. Some other people have pretended to

713
00:40:10,885 --> 00:40:13,965
Speaker 2: enjoy it, and so if not, now when? And so

714
00:40:14,125 --> 00:40:18,085
Speaker 2: I started doing stand up comedy. And it's not a

715
00:40:18,085 --> 00:40:21,925
Speaker 2: full time job doing comedy because most of the gigs

716
00:40:21,965 --> 00:40:23,885
Speaker 2: are Thursday, Friday, Saturday nights.

717
00:40:24,485 --> 00:40:26,925
Speaker 3: Most of those gigs are a five hour drive away.

718
00:40:27,205 --> 00:40:29,605
Speaker 2: And then I get to do like ten minutes on

719
00:40:29,685 --> 00:40:32,685
Speaker 2: a stage to twenty people, and then I'm driving back

720
00:40:32,685 --> 00:40:34,485
Speaker 2: and then they're doing nothing for four days and then

721
00:40:34,485 --> 00:40:40,365
Speaker 2: it starts again. And then I just started started writing,

722
00:40:40,445 --> 00:40:43,845
Speaker 2: thinking of comedy ideas, starting to meet TV producers, and

723
00:40:43,925 --> 00:40:46,965
Speaker 2: I'm very grateful to a couple of TV producers who

724
00:40:47,005 --> 00:40:51,085
Speaker 2: gave me my initial break, you know, helping out at

725
00:40:50,925 --> 00:40:53,885
Speaker 2: a very junior level writing on some TV shows. And

726
00:40:53,925 --> 00:40:56,605
Speaker 2: then I clearly didn't destroy those shows because I got

727
00:40:56,685 --> 00:40:59,205
Speaker 2: invited back to another one. And then that built over

728
00:40:59,485 --> 00:41:01,965
Speaker 2: over a couple of years until I was I was

729
00:41:02,005 --> 00:41:05,525
Speaker 2: in this lucky position of being able to earn across

730
00:41:06,045 --> 00:41:08,365
Speaker 2: that was only a fortune. But I think I suspect

731
00:41:08,365 --> 00:41:10,965
Speaker 2: I was earning less than I ever was as a doctor.

732
00:41:10,965 --> 00:41:15,765
Speaker 2: But I was doing something with zero stakes. A bad

733
00:41:15,845 --> 00:41:19,165
Speaker 2: day at work meant someone on a stage, you know,

734
00:41:19,365 --> 00:41:21,205
Speaker 2: through a can of to marches on my head or whatever,

735
00:41:21,485 --> 00:41:23,925
Speaker 2: or someone a producer said, this is the worst script

736
00:41:23,965 --> 00:41:27,205
Speaker 2: I've ever read, Please never darken my door.

737
00:41:27,445 --> 00:41:28,365
Speaker 3: But no one.

738
00:41:28,245 --> 00:41:31,845
Speaker 1: Died unless you killed on stage.

739
00:41:31,525 --> 00:41:33,045
Speaker 3: Unless I killed on stage.

740
00:41:33,085 --> 00:41:36,125
Speaker 2: And so far I've had a lot of collapses, but

741
00:41:36,205 --> 00:41:39,645
Speaker 2: no one has died in one. And in fact, if

742
00:41:39,685 --> 00:41:43,525
Speaker 2: you're particularly infirmly considering a comedy show, mine are a

743
00:41:43,565 --> 00:41:46,285
Speaker 2: great audience to be in because the number of doctors

744
00:41:46,285 --> 00:41:48,845
Speaker 2: and nurses and paramedics who come along to these shows,

745
00:41:48,965 --> 00:41:52,325
Speaker 2: it's probably the safest place in any city. So I

746
00:41:52,365 --> 00:41:55,765
Speaker 2: was doing this predominantly writing bit of stand up, and

747
00:41:56,285 --> 00:42:00,685
Speaker 2: I went up to the Edinburgh Fringe, where I performed

748
00:42:00,725 --> 00:42:02,685
Speaker 2: a number of times for but haven't been for maybe

749
00:42:03,005 --> 00:42:03,925
Speaker 2: five or six years.

750
00:42:03,965 --> 00:42:05,005
Speaker 1: Wow, that's tough.

751
00:42:05,165 --> 00:42:06,045
Speaker 3: It's tough, but.

752
00:42:07,005 --> 00:42:11,245
Speaker 2: I've done it before and by this stage I'm fairly

753
00:42:11,325 --> 00:42:14,485
Speaker 2: battle hardened, and I decided I wanted a full month

754
00:42:14,485 --> 00:42:17,005
Speaker 2: at the Edam Fringe to remind myself back to basics

755
00:42:17,045 --> 00:42:21,085
Speaker 2: of comedy. And I didn't write the show until very

756
00:42:21,165 --> 00:42:23,085
Speaker 2: very late, I didn't quite know what it's going to be.

757
00:42:23,485 --> 00:42:27,605
Speaker 2: And James, my partner, said, why don't you read out

758
00:42:27,645 --> 00:42:30,205
Speaker 2: from some of your diaries, which he knew that I'd

759
00:42:30,285 --> 00:42:32,885
Speaker 2: kept and they'd come with us on you know team,

760
00:42:33,085 --> 00:42:36,085
Speaker 2: you know, moved from apartment to apartments and wherever to

761
00:42:36,085 --> 00:42:37,645
Speaker 2: whoever in my filing cabinet.

762
00:42:38,485 --> 00:42:39,205
Speaker 3: And I thought about it.

763
00:42:39,245 --> 00:42:40,765
Speaker 2: I said, okay, I'll give it a go, and so

764
00:42:41,205 --> 00:42:44,925
Speaker 2: I went on stage and I literally read that from

765
00:42:44,925 --> 00:42:47,965
Speaker 2: scraps of paper and it was by far the best

766
00:42:48,005 --> 00:42:51,205
Speaker 2: received thing I'd ever done on stage.

767
00:42:51,925 --> 00:42:54,205
Speaker 3: And suddenly stories that I.

768
00:42:55,765 --> 00:42:58,085
Speaker 2: Suspected they were interesting because I knew they had liked,

769
00:42:58,525 --> 00:43:00,645
Speaker 2: you know, funny moments of them and interesting moments and

770
00:43:00,685 --> 00:43:04,005
Speaker 2: sad moments, but I hadn't quite appreciated that, outside of

771
00:43:04,005 --> 00:43:06,565
Speaker 2: the medical bubble that I lived in, how much people

772
00:43:06,645 --> 00:43:10,285
Speaker 2: would would be into this these first And I think

773
00:43:10,325 --> 00:43:15,285
Speaker 2: it probably applies to Melbourne as well. It's often the

774
00:43:15,325 --> 00:43:17,245
Speaker 2: only chance you get to see your old mates who

775
00:43:17,325 --> 00:43:20,085
Speaker 2: do comedy because if you're like you know, if you're

776
00:43:20,085 --> 00:43:23,365
Speaker 2: a touring comedian, you're sort of or a TV comedian

777
00:43:23,445 --> 00:43:26,885
Speaker 2: or whatever that's fairly solitary. You don't hang out with

778
00:43:26,965 --> 00:43:29,405
Speaker 2: huge numbers of other comedians, but this is the AGM,

779
00:43:29,525 --> 00:43:31,045
Speaker 2: and you will hang out in one place. And so

780
00:43:31,645 --> 00:43:33,725
Speaker 2: you go and see your mate shows, they see your shows.

781
00:43:33,925 --> 00:43:36,925
Speaker 2: There's a friend of mine, brilliant comedian called Mark Watson

782
00:43:36,965 --> 00:43:40,285
Speaker 2: who I know, who know tours in Australia, brilliant and

783
00:43:40,325 --> 00:43:42,285
Speaker 2: I went to see his show here my show. His

784
00:43:42,445 --> 00:43:46,605
Speaker 2: plus one at my show was his editor for the

785
00:43:46,645 --> 00:43:52,605
Speaker 2: books you write. He's a brilliant author. And Francesca, his editor,

786
00:43:52,645 --> 00:43:55,125
Speaker 2: said to me, after, how many more of these diaries

787
00:43:55,165 --> 00:43:56,885
Speaker 2: have you got, because I'm pretty sure there's a book

788
00:43:56,885 --> 00:44:00,205
Speaker 2: in there. And she was right there and there was

789
00:44:00,245 --> 00:44:03,845
Speaker 2: and that was there, and that was a pivotal moment

790
00:44:03,885 --> 00:44:07,165
Speaker 2: in my in my life, totally changed my life.

791
00:44:07,205 --> 00:44:08,445
Speaker 3: And so I.

792
00:44:08,365 --> 00:44:12,805
Speaker 2: Still write and perform full time, but now I get

793
00:44:12,845 --> 00:44:15,525
Speaker 2: to choose the projects that I write, which is the

794
00:44:16,565 --> 00:44:20,205
Speaker 2: single hugest privilege as a as a writer.

795
00:44:21,365 --> 00:44:26,005
Speaker 1: Well, because you brought a world to people that I

796
00:44:26,445 --> 00:44:31,405
Speaker 1: that appeals to everybody universally really, because either it's people

797
00:44:31,445 --> 00:44:33,805
Speaker 1: who have got your experience, like you said, the doctors,

798
00:44:33,845 --> 00:44:37,925
Speaker 1: the nurses, or it's people like us who have walked

799
00:44:38,085 --> 00:44:40,765
Speaker 1: in to see a doctor who have had our babies delivered.

800
00:44:40,805 --> 00:44:45,045
Speaker 1: Whatever it may be, there's no one that's untouched by

801
00:44:45,685 --> 00:44:47,645
Speaker 1: the experience that you brought to people.

802
00:44:49,365 --> 00:44:53,285
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think everyone's got everyone's got an inn and

803
00:44:54,045 --> 00:44:59,325
Speaker 2: hospitals can be quite miserable, scary, difficult places that aren't

804
00:44:59,365 --> 00:45:02,005
Speaker 2: laced with great memories, and so I think there is

805
00:45:02,045 --> 00:45:06,525
Speaker 2: something about then the like a side of it. Plus

806
00:45:06,525 --> 00:45:10,485
Speaker 2: obviously hearing lots of discussing stories, objects and orifices.

807
00:45:11,285 --> 00:45:14,645
Speaker 1: Well, yes, of course there's always there's there's always dessert

808
00:45:14,925 --> 00:45:19,845
Speaker 1: after the mara course. But you know you were saying

809
00:45:19,925 --> 00:45:22,965
Speaker 1: when you first started writing, and you weren't you were

810
00:45:23,005 --> 00:45:25,805
Speaker 1: earning even less than you were in medicine. Now a

811
00:45:25,845 --> 00:45:28,045
Speaker 1: lot of us have got this idea about doctors that

812
00:45:28,085 --> 00:45:30,685
Speaker 1: they're incredibly well paid and they've got a holiday house

813
00:45:30,725 --> 00:45:34,045
Speaker 1: and a Lala and they're driving European cars whatever. I

814
00:45:34,165 --> 00:45:38,285
Speaker 1: was so shocked to read. I think you worked it

815
00:45:38,325 --> 00:45:40,805
Speaker 1: out that you were earning like six quid to something

816
00:45:40,805 --> 00:45:42,045
Speaker 1: an hour as a doctor.

817
00:45:42,085 --> 00:45:45,005
Speaker 2: I was never paid badly, but you just had to

818
00:45:45,005 --> 00:45:47,565
Speaker 2: work a huge number of hours in order to guess that.

819
00:45:47,845 --> 00:45:50,565
Speaker 2: And I remember doing the sun and working out at

820
00:45:50,565 --> 00:45:53,885
Speaker 2: one hospital that I was earning less per hour for

821
00:45:53,965 --> 00:45:57,405
Speaker 2: my shifts than the parking meter I could see outside

822
00:45:57,485 --> 00:46:02,485
Speaker 2: the window was earning for Beata chuck In to come

823
00:46:02,485 --> 00:46:05,405
Speaker 2: and come and see us. You'd be hard pushed to

824
00:46:05,445 --> 00:46:09,045
Speaker 2: think that it's a job that people would do for

825
00:46:09,125 --> 00:46:13,085
Speaker 2: them money. There are a lot more efficient ways of

826
00:46:13,165 --> 00:46:16,805
Speaker 2: turning your straight a's and your exams into cold hard

827
00:46:16,885 --> 00:46:19,925
Speaker 2: cash than going via six years of medical school then

828
00:46:20,445 --> 00:46:21,805
Speaker 2: teen years on the wards.

829
00:46:21,485 --> 00:46:23,085
Speaker 3: To make your way up to the top.

830
00:46:23,165 --> 00:46:25,485
Speaker 2: Because it's only when you hit the top of the

831
00:46:25,525 --> 00:46:28,605
Speaker 2: tree and you know you're a consultant that you.

832
00:46:28,565 --> 00:46:29,525
Speaker 3: Have the opportunity.

833
00:46:29,845 --> 00:46:32,445
Speaker 2: I mean, there are lots of doctors who earn a

834
00:46:32,605 --> 00:46:37,925
Speaker 2: very very very good wage, but I don't think any

835
00:46:38,045 --> 00:46:42,165
Speaker 2: of them are people who don't have to work hard.

836
00:46:42,285 --> 00:46:45,485
Speaker 2: I don't know certainly in the UK, if you want

837
00:46:45,685 --> 00:46:47,885
Speaker 2: the doctors who earn the big money, who have the

838
00:46:47,885 --> 00:46:51,445
Speaker 2: second homes and have the fancy cars, are people who

839
00:46:51,805 --> 00:46:56,045
Speaker 2: do their NHS job and then spend their evenings and

840
00:46:56,085 --> 00:47:00,045
Speaker 2: weekends doing private medicine. For some reason, over the last

841
00:47:00,045 --> 00:47:02,605
Speaker 2: few years, there's been a lot of anti doctor sentiment

842
00:47:03,165 --> 00:47:07,645
Speaker 2: in the UK media, like you have to wait two

843
00:47:07,685 --> 00:47:10,925
Speaker 2: months to see your GP ther appointments only eight minutes.

844
00:47:11,285 --> 00:47:14,045
Speaker 3: We're being told these mean gps.

845
00:47:14,085 --> 00:47:17,405
Speaker 2: Who are They've all got five helicopters each and in

846
00:47:17,645 --> 00:47:20,285
Speaker 2: a house in Hawaii. They're not the people who are

847
00:47:20,285 --> 00:47:22,685
Speaker 2: to blame that you have to wait this length of time.

848
00:47:23,205 --> 00:47:26,365
Speaker 2: The people to blame are the people who aren't employing

849
00:47:26,605 --> 00:47:29,805
Speaker 2: enough gps. Because these gps work as hard as they can,

850
00:47:31,005 --> 00:47:33,405
Speaker 2: and I know loads of my friends are GPS, as

851
00:47:33,445 --> 00:47:36,045
Speaker 2: my family GPS. It's heartbreaking for them how long these

852
00:47:36,285 --> 00:47:41,685
Speaker 2: waiting lists are. But the problem is there aren't enough

853
00:47:41,725 --> 00:47:44,965
Speaker 2: of them, and the governments should be should be investing

854
00:47:45,205 --> 00:47:48,165
Speaker 2: the resources to give people the you know what they need,

855
00:47:48,285 --> 00:47:52,405
Speaker 2: rather than you know what are essentially client media of

856
00:47:52,525 --> 00:47:55,765
Speaker 2: the government blaming the doctors. And a very easy thing

857
00:47:55,765 --> 00:47:58,125
Speaker 2: for them to say is look at this doctor who's

858
00:47:58,125 --> 00:47:58,845
Speaker 2: got a ferrari.

859
00:47:59,565 --> 00:48:03,285
Speaker 1: When they decided or they or you decided to make

860
00:48:03,365 --> 00:48:08,125
Speaker 1: a series of your book, which is on STAN, the

861
00:48:08,165 --> 00:48:11,365
Speaker 1: streaming service STAN in Australia here and a Canadian might

862
00:48:11,405 --> 00:48:13,885
Speaker 1: of mind said it's one of the best series he's

863
00:48:13,925 --> 00:48:18,125
Speaker 1: ever seen. Oh wow, how much say did you have

864
00:48:18,245 --> 00:48:19,805
Speaker 1: in the casting of yourself?

865
00:48:20,645 --> 00:48:22,845
Speaker 3: I had a lot of say.

866
00:48:23,365 --> 00:48:30,205
Speaker 2: I was very and basically everyone was agreed that there

867
00:48:30,285 --> 00:48:32,765
Speaker 2: was sort of only one person who could play it,

868
00:48:32,845 --> 00:48:36,445
Speaker 2: and we've been talking about Ben Wishaw from the very

869
00:48:36,845 --> 00:48:39,325
Speaker 2: It's so weird having this discussion. It's like one of

870
00:48:39,325 --> 00:48:41,685
Speaker 2: these standard dinner party questions who would play you in

871
00:48:41,765 --> 00:48:42,605
Speaker 2: a thing of your life?

872
00:48:42,765 --> 00:48:43,765
Speaker 3: And then we're sitting.

873
00:48:43,485 --> 00:48:45,045
Speaker 2: Around the table and was like, well, it's got to

874
00:48:45,045 --> 00:48:47,365
Speaker 2: be by and so all our eggs were in that

875
00:48:47,405 --> 00:48:49,325
Speaker 2: basket and we were like, well, this is a bit

876
00:48:49,365 --> 00:48:51,925
Speaker 2: stressful because I hadn't finished the script yet. I hadn't

877
00:48:52,045 --> 00:48:54,205
Speaker 2: finished I wasn't ready to take it to him yet.

878
00:48:54,565 --> 00:48:57,965
Speaker 2: But so we brought on this an amazing casting director

879
00:48:58,205 --> 00:49:00,045
Speaker 2: because there's obviously we needed one for all the other

880
00:49:00,605 --> 00:49:04,005
Speaker 2: tons of parts. Brought on the amazing Nina Gold whose

881
00:49:05,005 --> 00:49:08,925
Speaker 2: loads of Bafter winning shows in the past, and and

882
00:49:08,965 --> 00:49:11,565
Speaker 2: we're like, okay, so first question, who's the short.

883
00:49:11,325 --> 00:49:13,765
Speaker 3: List for this part? And she was like, well, it's

884
00:49:13,765 --> 00:49:15,085
Speaker 3: got to be Ben wish or doesn't it.

885
00:49:15,125 --> 00:49:17,845
Speaker 2: So anyway, that was a lot of pressure, but luckily

886
00:49:18,165 --> 00:49:22,925
Speaker 2: he loved the script, he agreed, he agreed, and we

887
00:49:23,285 --> 00:49:25,885
Speaker 2: sat down for a nice lunch and by the end

888
00:49:25,925 --> 00:49:28,725
Speaker 2: of it, he was on board. And I'm so glad

889
00:49:28,765 --> 00:49:32,645
Speaker 2: he was because he is the most fantastic actor. The

890
00:49:32,685 --> 00:49:34,725
Speaker 2: way he can do the comedy and the drama.

891
00:49:35,365 --> 00:49:36,325
Speaker 1: It's a bit like you.

892
00:49:37,405 --> 00:49:41,725
Speaker 2: Well, no portrayal of a health service can be just

893
00:49:41,805 --> 00:49:42,925
Speaker 2: comedy or just drama.

894
00:49:43,165 --> 00:49:46,085
Speaker 3: That won't be a fair reflection of what it is.

895
00:49:46,125 --> 00:49:49,605
Speaker 2: It has to have a bit of both, and he

896
00:49:49,725 --> 00:49:50,805
Speaker 2: can do them both so well.

897
00:49:50,845 --> 00:49:53,245
Speaker 3: And also he's such a sympathetic character.

898
00:49:53,565 --> 00:49:56,605
Speaker 2: I wrote the tele version of me very different to

899
00:49:56,725 --> 00:49:59,765
Speaker 2: real me because if I'd have just written some sort

900
00:49:59,805 --> 00:50:03,925
Speaker 2: of like superhero, you know, brilliant, lovely doctor, that's not

901
00:50:04,005 --> 00:50:06,325
Speaker 2: a drama that's not enjoyable to what I wanted to

902
00:50:06,445 --> 00:50:08,525
Speaker 2: show someone who's a bit of an asshole.

903
00:50:08,845 --> 00:50:10,885
Speaker 3: Who was you know, you could see why he was

904
00:50:11,005 --> 00:50:11,685
Speaker 3: like that because.

905
00:50:11,485 --> 00:50:14,285
Speaker 2: The pressures on him, but ultimately wasn't very well behaved,

906
00:50:14,925 --> 00:50:20,005
Speaker 2: and he played that with such I don't know, with

907
00:50:20,125 --> 00:50:23,165
Speaker 2: such charm that I don't think he sort of ended

908
00:50:23,245 --> 00:50:26,045
Speaker 2: up being haterable and in the wrong hands he could

909
00:50:26,045 --> 00:50:27,765
Speaker 2: have been. And the other thing to say about Ben

910
00:50:28,005 --> 00:50:30,405
Speaker 2: is I know an awful lot of actors, and I've

911
00:50:30,445 --> 00:50:33,205
Speaker 2: worked with a lot of them. You normally have to

912
00:50:33,325 --> 00:50:36,365
Speaker 2: choose between having a good actor or a nice actor,

913
00:50:36,805 --> 00:50:39,725
Speaker 2: and Ben is one of the relatively shortness who is

914
00:50:39,765 --> 00:50:41,165
Speaker 2: both very good and very nice.

915
00:50:41,765 --> 00:50:45,805
Speaker 1: Good on you, Ben, I wanted to ask if you

916
00:50:45,845 --> 00:50:49,125
Speaker 1: could tell the story as a result of the series,

917
00:50:49,165 --> 00:50:51,805
Speaker 1: you know how we were saying that that things have

918
00:50:52,445 --> 00:50:54,365
Speaker 1: kind of changed, or you've brought a lot of stuff

919
00:50:54,405 --> 00:50:57,765
Speaker 1: to public attention, if you could share the story of

920
00:50:57,925 --> 00:50:59,925
Speaker 1: the tree that was planted.

921
00:51:00,405 --> 00:51:01,125
Speaker 3: Oh of course.

922
00:51:01,485 --> 00:51:05,325
Speaker 2: So as well as the character being different in this series,

923
00:51:05,845 --> 00:51:10,005
Speaker 2: to real me, the storyline of the series couldn't.

924
00:51:09,725 --> 00:51:12,325
Speaker 3: Just be, you know, directly of my what's in the

925
00:51:12,525 --> 00:51:12,965
Speaker 3: in the book.

926
00:51:13,005 --> 00:51:15,365
Speaker 2: And I decided, when trying to turn this into it

927
00:51:15,605 --> 00:51:18,925
Speaker 2: like an arc over a full series, that I wanted

928
00:51:19,005 --> 00:51:21,085
Speaker 2: to focus on the mental health of.

929
00:51:22,565 --> 00:51:24,245
Speaker 3: Doctors. And it's you know, a bit of a.

930
00:51:24,245 --> 00:51:28,805
Speaker 2: Spoiler to say that it's it's a storyline that it's

931
00:51:28,845 --> 00:51:33,205
Speaker 2: around suicide of healthcare professionals, which is a very big problem,

932
00:51:33,725 --> 00:51:37,365
Speaker 2: not just the UK, but but worldwide. And at the

933
00:51:37,485 --> 00:51:40,805
Speaker 2: end of the series, there's a memorial scene where a

934
00:51:40,925 --> 00:51:43,645
Speaker 2: tree is planted outside the hospital and a plaque goes

935
00:51:43,685 --> 00:51:47,165
Speaker 2: in the ground. And we shot the exteriors of the

936
00:51:47,605 --> 00:51:50,245
Speaker 2: of the series. The interiors were in a studio, but

937
00:51:50,245 --> 00:51:52,205
Speaker 2: the extraors were in a real hospital in West London,

938
00:51:52,285 --> 00:51:56,525
Speaker 2: ealing Hospital, and I had a whole load of messages

939
00:51:56,605 --> 00:51:59,605
Speaker 2: on social media afterwards and people getting in touch with

940
00:51:59,725 --> 00:52:02,565
Speaker 2: the production company or the TV station or whatever to

941
00:52:02,725 --> 00:52:06,245
Speaker 2: say that they'd looked round the grounds, they'd recognized the

942
00:52:06,285 --> 00:52:08,125
Speaker 2: HOFB and looked for the for the tree, and then

943
00:52:08,165 --> 00:52:10,365
Speaker 2: they realized that it was just a just a proper

944
00:52:10,365 --> 00:52:13,205
Speaker 2: and I felt silly, and I got in touch with

945
00:52:13,285 --> 00:52:17,165
Speaker 2: the charity, UK based charity called Doctors in Distress. I'm

946
00:52:17,485 --> 00:52:21,205
Speaker 2: proud to be a patron of who exists to decrease

947
00:52:21,565 --> 00:52:23,565
Speaker 2: suicides amongst healthcare professionals.

948
00:52:24,085 --> 00:52:26,925
Speaker 1: Which is it an epidemic? It's an epidemic, isn't it.

949
00:52:28,365 --> 00:52:33,805
Speaker 2: The numbers are unthinkable, so UK numbers. But in the UK,

950
00:52:34,925 --> 00:52:37,645
Speaker 2: every three weeks one doctor takes their own life. In

951
00:52:37,725 --> 00:52:40,725
Speaker 2: the UK, every single week, one nurse takes their own life.

952
00:52:40,725 --> 00:52:43,845
Speaker 2: And that's just two of the huge jigsaw of professions.

953
00:52:43,885 --> 00:52:47,285
Speaker 2: And I know, you know, having toured in Australia previously,

954
00:52:47,365 --> 00:52:50,965
Speaker 2: coming coming back again shortly, and I've talked to you know,

955
00:52:51,045 --> 00:52:55,205
Speaker 2: if your numbers are equally shocking, you know, it's one

956
00:52:55,245 --> 00:52:59,765
Speaker 2: of the single biggest risks you can have for a

957
00:52:59,845 --> 00:53:04,925
Speaker 2: suicide rate is working one of these professions in Australia.

958
00:53:05,005 --> 00:53:08,325
Speaker 2: And so anyway, this charity Doctors in Distress, said that

959
00:53:08,525 --> 00:53:11,445
Speaker 2: there was no more memorial in the UK to healthcare

960
00:53:11,485 --> 00:53:14,845
Speaker 2: staff we've lost their life to suicide because of stigma

961
00:53:15,005 --> 00:53:17,965
Speaker 2: and shame and taboo. This thing that I think should

962
00:53:18,005 --> 00:53:20,605
Speaker 2: be like a it's a national scandal, it should be

963
00:53:20,645 --> 00:53:22,685
Speaker 2: a headline every time that happens. Every time just gets

964
00:53:22,725 --> 00:53:25,565
Speaker 2: brushed under the carpet. So I got back in touch

965
00:53:25,605 --> 00:53:28,085
Speaker 2: with ealing hospital and said can we come back and

966
00:53:28,205 --> 00:53:32,565
Speaker 2: can we plant a tree that will stay there? And

967
00:53:33,685 --> 00:53:37,885
Speaker 2: they said yes very kindly, and that became the first

968
00:53:37,925 --> 00:53:41,365
Speaker 2: ever memorial in the UK to healthcare staff we've lost

969
00:53:41,405 --> 00:53:44,165
Speaker 2: their lives in this way. And since then we've been

970
00:53:44,205 --> 00:53:48,485
Speaker 2: around another couple of dozen hospitals, plants a couple of

971
00:53:48,605 --> 00:53:51,125
Speaker 2: dozen trees, and I mean, it's not going to do

972
00:53:51,205 --> 00:53:53,565
Speaker 2: anything in and of itself, it's just a tree. But

973
00:53:53,725 --> 00:53:56,525
Speaker 2: I think it potentially does two things. So it's a

974
00:53:56,645 --> 00:53:59,045
Speaker 2: memorial to people who must never be forgotten. That's a

975
00:53:59,125 --> 00:54:05,725
Speaker 2: very important thing. But secondly, surely the first step in

976
00:54:05,885 --> 00:54:09,045
Speaker 2: resolving a problem, whatever it is, has to be admitting

977
00:54:09,085 --> 00:54:12,725
Speaker 2: that the problem even exists in the in the first place,

978
00:54:12,845 --> 00:54:16,805
Speaker 2: and I think hopefully this goes some way towards achieving

979
00:54:16,885 --> 00:54:19,725
Speaker 2: that because this is a this is an issue that

980
00:54:20,965 --> 00:54:23,405
Speaker 2: isn't talked about by the profession.

981
00:54:23,405 --> 00:54:24,045
Speaker 3: And it needs to be.

982
00:54:24,885 --> 00:54:29,005
Speaker 1: Adam Kay, thank you for sharing yourself with us on

983
00:54:29,125 --> 00:54:29,565
Speaker 1: no filter.

984
00:54:29,885 --> 00:54:30,605
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

985
00:54:31,405 --> 00:54:36,085
Speaker 1: Is laughter the best medicine or medicine.

986
00:54:37,285 --> 00:54:42,645
Speaker 2: Medicine is the best medicine. But laughter is very important.

987
00:54:42,965 --> 00:54:47,165
Speaker 2: And I love writing books and I love hearing the

988
00:54:47,205 --> 00:54:51,285
Speaker 2: people who've enjoyed it. But I also love getting back

989
00:54:51,365 --> 00:54:56,845
Speaker 2: to my to my roots and getting on stage because

990
00:54:56,925 --> 00:55:02,325
Speaker 2: then the laughter comes immediately. I'm dead excited about coming

991
00:55:02,405 --> 00:55:05,845
Speaker 2: back to Australia with this is going to hurt, which

992
00:55:05,925 --> 00:55:08,245
Speaker 2: is happening shortly. And I'll tell you the best thing

993
00:55:08,285 --> 00:55:11,125
Speaker 2: about it for me, it's not actually I lied then.

994
00:55:11,165 --> 00:55:13,365
Speaker 2: It's not actually the bit on stage. It's the bit

995
00:55:13,485 --> 00:55:16,045
Speaker 2: afterwards where I sit in that sit at a desk

996
00:55:16,085 --> 00:55:17,845
Speaker 2: and people have brought their books along and or buy

997
00:55:17,925 --> 00:55:21,125
Speaker 2: books or whatever, and I sign I signed copies and

998
00:55:21,165 --> 00:55:23,565
Speaker 2: actually get to speak to people who've got their own

999
00:55:23,685 --> 00:55:27,085
Speaker 2: stories from working in these environments or being a patient,

1000
00:55:27,885 --> 00:55:30,725
Speaker 2: and a very weird thing that's happened in the last

1001
00:55:30,925 --> 00:55:33,405
Speaker 2: year or so, and that this won't happen on tour

1002
00:55:33,445 --> 00:55:36,845
Speaker 2: in Australia. But it's happened. It's happened quite a few

1003
00:55:36,885 --> 00:55:39,245
Speaker 2: times in the UK, and three times now that i've

1004
00:55:40,205 --> 00:55:42,045
Speaker 2: I've say, who can I sign this to it? And

1005
00:55:42,085 --> 00:55:45,165
Speaker 2: they tell me, and they said, and point to their

1006
00:55:45,245 --> 00:55:46,725
Speaker 2: sort of teenager with them and say, you're not going

1007
00:55:46,765 --> 00:55:49,925
Speaker 2: to remember this person, but you delivered them seventeen years ago.

1008
00:55:50,605 --> 00:55:55,525
Speaker 2: So I've now I'm now in the amazing situation. It's

1009
00:55:55,565 --> 00:55:58,125
Speaker 2: a great business model. Actually, is it delivering your own.

1010
00:55:58,645 --> 00:56:00,885
Speaker 1: Your own audience, you're an audience.

1011
00:56:01,005 --> 00:56:05,125
Speaker 2: Yeah, so definitely Penicillin et cetera best medicine. But laughter

1012
00:56:05,365 --> 00:56:08,805
Speaker 2: is a very important way to decompress. And I suspect

1013
00:56:09,365 --> 00:56:13,725
Speaker 2: if it wasn't for laughter, that be a lot fewer

1014
00:56:13,765 --> 00:56:15,125
Speaker 2: people working on their wards.

1015
00:56:15,725 --> 00:56:18,925
Speaker 1: Thanks Adam, kay, we look forward to seeing you in Australia.

1016
00:56:19,205 --> 00:56:20,485
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. I can't wait.

1017
00:56:24,445 --> 00:56:29,205
Speaker 1: Oh. I love how honest Adam is. His willingness to

1018
00:56:29,365 --> 00:56:34,845
Speaker 1: lay everything there has not only sparked important conversations, but

1019
00:56:35,005 --> 00:56:38,965
Speaker 1: has even led to meaningful changes in how we and

1020
00:56:39,165 --> 00:56:42,885
Speaker 1: in the UK they think about the healthcare system. If

1021
00:56:42,925 --> 00:56:45,445
Speaker 1: you want to hear more from Adam, he's currently touring

1022
00:56:45,485 --> 00:56:48,965
Speaker 1: Australia with his stand up show, a performance that, much

1023
00:56:49,165 --> 00:56:53,565
Speaker 1: like his book, balances comedy and tragedy in equal measure.

1024
00:56:54,325 --> 00:56:58,845
Speaker 1: It's raw, it's hilarious, it's really moving. It's a glimpse

1025
00:56:58,885 --> 00:57:02,645
Speaker 1: into the realities of medicine, told with his signature wit

1026
00:57:03,325 --> 00:57:05,525
Speaker 1: with included links in the show notes so you can

1027
00:57:05,565 --> 00:57:09,565
Speaker 1: grab tickets and experience it for yourself. The executiveget user

1028
00:57:09,645 --> 00:57:13,805
Speaker 1: of No Filter is Nama Brown. Senior producer is Grace Ruvre.

1029
00:57:14,405 --> 00:57:17,645
Speaker 1: Sound design is by Jacob Brown and I am your

1030
00:57:17,725 --> 00:57:20,805
Speaker 1: host Kate lane Brook. Back with you next week.