1 00:00:12,103 --> 00:00:15,644 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mammamia's Daily News podcast, 2 00:00:15,653 --> 00:00:18,254 Speaker 1: the quicky. And today we're going to try and get into 3 00:00:18,263 --> 00:00:21,254 Speaker 1: the mind of a teenage boy to understand why some 4 00:00:21,263 --> 00:00:24,174 Speaker 1: treat girls the way that they do. But before we 5 00:00:24,183 --> 00:00:26,433 Speaker 1: do that, let's head to the quicky newsroom for Tuesday, 6 00:00:26,443 --> 00:00:27,993 Speaker 1: May 14 With Grace Rouvray 7 00:00:29,284 --> 00:00:34,074 Speaker 2: Israeli forces have again entered Gaza's northern edge to recapture 8 00:00:34,083 --> 00:00:36,634 Speaker 2: an area where they had claimed to have defeated Hamas 9 00:00:36,644 --> 00:00:40,624 Speaker 2: months ago. Tanks and troops have also entered the south 10 00:00:40,634 --> 00:00:44,734 Speaker 2: and pushed across a highway into Rafa. Israel describes its 11 00:00:44,743 --> 00:00:47,203 Speaker 2: latest return to the north, where it pulled out most 12 00:00:47,214 --> 00:00:50,094 Speaker 2: of its troops five months ago as part of a 13 00:00:50,103 --> 00:00:53,504 Speaker 2: mop up stage of the war to prevent fighters from returning. 14 00:00:53,844 --> 00:00:57,293 Speaker 2: Palestinians say the need to return to earlier battlegrounds is 15 00:00:57,304 --> 00:01:01,844 Speaker 2: proof Israel's military objectives are unattainable. On Monday, residents from 16 00:01:01,853 --> 00:01:05,473 Speaker 2: a refugee camp fled their houses carrying bags of belongings, 17 00:01:05,484 --> 00:01:08,304 Speaker 2: with one woman saying, We don't know where to go. 18 00:01:08,313 --> 00:01:11,133 Speaker 2: We have been displaced from one place to the next. 19 00:01:11,144 --> 00:01:12,763 Speaker 2: We are running in the streets. 20 00:01:13,173 --> 00:01:16,614 Speaker 2: The assault on Rafah has caused tension between Israel and 21 00:01:16,623 --> 00:01:20,144 Speaker 2: its main ally, the United States, which put some deliveries 22 00:01:20,154 --> 00:01:22,584 Speaker 2: of weapons on hold for the first time since the 23 00:01:22,593 --> 00:01:26,544 Speaker 2: war began, with Washington saying Israel must not assault Rafah 24 00:01:26,553 --> 00:01:29,944 Speaker 2: without a plan in place to protect civilians, which it 25 00:01:29,953 --> 00:01:31,103 Speaker 2: has yet to see. 26 00:01:31,803 --> 00:01:35,584 Speaker 2: New South Wales' most serious domestic violence offenders will find 27 00:01:35,593 --> 00:01:38,514 Speaker 2: it hard to get released on bail after the government 28 00:01:38,523 --> 00:01:41,694 Speaker 2: rolls out its new judicial plan. The legal changes, which 29 00:01:41,703 --> 00:01:44,103 Speaker 2: are set to be passed by New South Wales parliament 30 00:01:44,114 --> 00:01:47,603 Speaker 2: this week, will target the most serious offenders. Facing a 31 00:01:47,614 --> 00:01:51,493 Speaker 2: maximum penalty of 14 or more years in jail and 32 00:01:51,504 --> 00:01:55,864 Speaker 2: defined as those accused of sexual assault, strangulation, kidnapping as 33 00:01:55,873 --> 00:01:57,464 Speaker 2: well as coercive control 34 00:01:58,034 --> 00:02:00,813 Speaker 2: bail, decision makers will need to consider a range of 35 00:02:00,824 --> 00:02:05,254 Speaker 2: risk factors and red flags. These include physical abuse, sexual abuse, 36 00:02:05,264 --> 00:02:10,284 Speaker 2: coercive behaviour, stalking, animal cruelty and intimidation. The views of 37 00:02:10,294 --> 00:02:13,163 Speaker 2: victims and their family members will also be considered where 38 00:02:13,173 --> 00:02:16,684 Speaker 2: possible and if released on bail. High risk offenders will 39 00:02:16,694 --> 00:02:20,994 Speaker 2: also be subject to electronic ankle monitor tracking, Premier Min said. 40 00:02:21,004 --> 00:02:25,054 Speaker 2: These reforms to keep women and Children safe are long overdue. 41 00:02:25,623 --> 00:02:29,914 Speaker 2: Australians spending their hard earned cash is dwindling, with reports 42 00:02:29,923 --> 00:02:34,834 Speaker 2: revealing a struggling retail sector throughout April spending fell sharply 43 00:02:34,843 --> 00:02:38,364 Speaker 2: due to consumers forking out less on luxury items, including 44 00:02:38,373 --> 00:02:40,054 Speaker 2: meals out and recreation. 45 00:02:40,774 --> 00:02:43,994 Speaker 2: This followed a minor Easter inspired economic bump in the 46 00:02:44,004 --> 00:02:47,323 Speaker 2: March edition of the Commonwealth Bank Indicator, which draws on 47 00:02:47,334 --> 00:02:51,813 Speaker 2: its consumer transaction data services. Sectors such as finance, transport 48 00:02:51,823 --> 00:02:55,724 Speaker 2: and personal services were still faring pretty well. Employment, trading 49 00:02:55,733 --> 00:02:56,994 Speaker 2: and profitability, the three 50 00:02:57,524 --> 00:03:01,173 Speaker 2: of business conditions tracked by NAB, all fell back to 51 00:03:01,183 --> 00:03:04,793 Speaker 2: their long run averages in April. The spending weakness underlines 52 00:03:04,804 --> 00:03:08,233 Speaker 2: Treasurer Jim Chalmers message that the economy is facing pressure 53 00:03:08,244 --> 00:03:11,623 Speaker 2: both at home and abroad as he fine tunes spending 54 00:03:11,634 --> 00:03:13,474 Speaker 2: plans ahead of his third budget. 55 00:03:14,274 --> 00:03:17,013 Speaker 2: King Charles has handed over a senior military role to 56 00:03:17,024 --> 00:03:20,463 Speaker 2: his son Prince William, marking a rare joint appearance for 57 00:03:20,474 --> 00:03:22,694 Speaker 2: the pair as the king steps up to return to 58 00:03:22,703 --> 00:03:27,494 Speaker 2: public duties. After his cancer diagnosis, Charles presented William with 59 00:03:27,504 --> 00:03:30,414 Speaker 2: the title of Colonel in chief of the Army Air Corps, 60 00:03:30,423 --> 00:03:35,513 Speaker 2: a position the 75 year old monarch held for 32 years. William, 61 00:03:35,524 --> 00:03:38,034 Speaker 2: who is a former helicopter search and rescue pilot for 62 00:03:38,043 --> 00:03:41,233 Speaker 2: Britain's Royal Air Force, was described by his dad as 63 00:03:41,244 --> 00:03:43,144 Speaker 2: a very good pilot. Indeed, 64 00:03:43,614 --> 00:03:46,793 Speaker 2: the visit was Charles' latest engagement since he returned to 65 00:03:46,804 --> 00:03:49,694 Speaker 2: work at the end of April, almost three months after 66 00:03:49,703 --> 00:03:52,864 Speaker 2: Buckingham Palace announced he was being treated for an unspecified 67 00:03:52,873 --> 00:03:56,554 Speaker 2: type of cancer. William had also taken a break from 68 00:03:56,563 --> 00:04:00,073 Speaker 2: official duties for several weeks in March and April this year, 69 00:04:00,084 --> 00:04:02,834 Speaker 2: choosing to spend time with her and care for his wife. 70 00:04:02,843 --> 00:04:07,034 Speaker 2: After she revealed she was undergoing preventative chemotherapy for cancer, 71 00:04:07,263 --> 00:04:10,073 Speaker 2: William told crowds on Friday she was doing well. 72 00:04:11,054 --> 00:04:13,774 Speaker 1: Thanks, Grace. Next we speak to a man who, as 73 00:04:13,784 --> 00:04:17,823 Speaker 1: a teenager said something horrific about a fellow female student 74 00:04:18,043 --> 00:04:20,164 Speaker 1: to find out why he said it and what he 75 00:04:20,173 --> 00:04:22,034 Speaker 1: thinks about it all these years later. 76 00:04:29,363 --> 00:04:32,942 Speaker 1: Recently, yet another Australian school found themselves in the midst 77 00:04:32,953 --> 00:04:36,972 Speaker 1: of a controversy surrounding the behaviour of teenage boys. The 78 00:04:36,983 --> 00:04:40,152 Speaker 1: four students at Yarra Valley Grammar in Melbourne had compiled 79 00:04:40,162 --> 00:04:43,962 Speaker 1: a spreadsheet rating their female peers. It included photos of 80 00:04:43,972 --> 00:04:47,752 Speaker 1: the girls alongside descriptions of where they ranked against each other, 81 00:04:47,942 --> 00:04:52,562 Speaker 1: including those they considered to be wifeys cuties, Mids objects, 82 00:04:52,573 --> 00:04:54,712 Speaker 1: get out and unrapable. 83 00:04:55,384 --> 00:04:58,363 Speaker 1: Of the four involved in the document's creation, two have 84 00:04:58,373 --> 00:05:02,224 Speaker 1: been expelled from the school. The headmaster, Mark Merry explaining 85 00:05:02,234 --> 00:05:04,914 Speaker 1: that the enrolment of the boys had become untenable when 86 00:05:04,924 --> 00:05:08,373 Speaker 1: considering if the girls featured on that spreadsheet felt comfortable 87 00:05:08,384 --> 00:05:11,444 Speaker 1: having those boys around them moving forward. The other two, 88 00:05:11,454 --> 00:05:14,623 Speaker 1: who reportedly played a lesser role in the list's creation, 89 00:05:14,643 --> 00:05:17,884 Speaker 1: have been subject to further disciplinary action. After all four 90 00:05:17,893 --> 00:05:20,194 Speaker 1: were suspended following the spreadsheets reveal, 91 00:05:20,653 --> 00:05:23,694 Speaker 1: the principal also referred the matter to police after seeing 92 00:05:23,704 --> 00:05:27,074 Speaker 1: the use of the sexually violent language. Mark Merry spoke 93 00:05:27,083 --> 00:05:29,754 Speaker 1: to the ABC about the matter, and when asked if 94 00:05:29,764 --> 00:05:33,034 Speaker 1: he felt those boys understood what they'd done was wrong 95 00:05:33,044 --> 00:05:36,113 Speaker 1: and why it was wrong, he replied that he really 96 00:05:36,123 --> 00:05:38,743 Speaker 1: can't say for sure. I really don't know if they 97 00:05:38,754 --> 00:05:43,164 Speaker 1: get it, because often in these cases there's the shock 98 00:05:43,174 --> 00:05:46,484 Speaker 1: of being caught and the shock of a sanction being 99 00:05:46,493 --> 00:05:48,224 Speaker 1: imposed and and then 100 00:05:48,694 --> 00:05:52,194 Speaker 1: there's a lot of emotions floating around and then we 101 00:05:52,204 --> 00:05:55,444 Speaker 1: relocate to another school. I get a fresh start and 102 00:05:55,454 --> 00:05:58,234 Speaker 1: I'm hopeful that down the track that there's a bit 103 00:05:58,243 --> 00:06:02,373 Speaker 1: of reflection and self reflection that goes on sometimes to 104 00:06:02,384 --> 00:06:05,354 Speaker 1: be brutally honest, we have adult men who carry on 105 00:06:05,363 --> 00:06:07,993 Speaker 1: like this, so sometimes people never get it. 106 00:06:08,824 --> 00:06:13,164 Speaker 1: I unfortunately, have personal experience with something just like this. 107 00:06:13,674 --> 00:06:15,884 Speaker 1: When I was 14, I was on a bus home 108 00:06:15,893 --> 00:06:18,773 Speaker 1: from school when I overheard a group of boys chatting 109 00:06:18,784 --> 00:06:21,764 Speaker 1: about a female classmate. One of the boys ended up 110 00:06:21,773 --> 00:06:23,784 Speaker 1: sitting next to me, and when I asked him what 111 00:06:23,794 --> 00:06:26,843 Speaker 1: they were saying about the girl, his response shocked me 112 00:06:26,854 --> 00:06:29,743 Speaker 1: enough back then that I remember it very clearly. To 113 00:06:29,754 --> 00:06:30,384 Speaker 1: this day, 114 00:06:30,803 --> 00:06:34,053 Speaker 1: he said to me, You know, she's really hot, but 115 00:06:34,063 --> 00:06:36,504 Speaker 1: she's like a girl you'd just want to rape, you know, 116 00:06:36,794 --> 00:06:39,023 Speaker 1: suggesting that she's not the kind of girl you'd be 117 00:06:39,034 --> 00:06:42,623 Speaker 1: in a relationship with. Instead, she's good only for sex 118 00:06:42,634 --> 00:06:44,023 Speaker 1: and forcibly. At that, 119 00:06:45,004 --> 00:06:47,143 Speaker 1: I managed to track this boy down to find out 120 00:06:47,153 --> 00:06:50,354 Speaker 1: how he feels 30 years later about the awful things 121 00:06:50,363 --> 00:06:53,264 Speaker 1: his teenage boy brain thought was acceptable. Back then, 122 00:06:54,183 --> 00:06:56,484 Speaker 1: when I explained to him why I was calling, he 123 00:06:56,493 --> 00:06:59,893 Speaker 1: was taken aback that he'd said something so truly vile. 124 00:07:00,044 --> 00:07:02,963 Speaker 1: He says he doesn't remember the conversation, but that he 125 00:07:02,974 --> 00:07:05,653 Speaker 1: knows he said some pretty stupid and terrible things when 126 00:07:05,664 --> 00:07:08,493 Speaker 1: he was a kid. To protect his identity for the 127 00:07:08,504 --> 00:07:10,884 Speaker 1: sake of his young family, a voice actor will deliver 128 00:07:10,893 --> 00:07:13,903 Speaker 1: his responses to my questions today. And to be clear, 129 00:07:13,914 --> 00:07:16,593 Speaker 1: we aren't trying to justify the actions of the boys 130 00:07:16,604 --> 00:07:18,813 Speaker 1: who do things like call the girls in their classes 131 00:07:19,014 --> 00:07:22,243 Speaker 1: unrapable But we're trying to understand why they think the 132 00:07:22,254 --> 00:07:23,004 Speaker 1: way they do. 133 00:07:23,743 --> 00:07:26,354 Speaker 1: Why do you think you might have said something like that? 134 00:07:26,563 --> 00:07:28,724 Speaker 1: That a girl you know is the rapable kind. 135 00:07:30,134 --> 00:07:32,273 Speaker 2: Basically, it's like when you're attracted to someone, but you 136 00:07:32,284 --> 00:07:33,034 Speaker 2: don't like them. 137 00:07:33,914 --> 00:07:37,254 Speaker 2: Boys will talk about the physical attractiveness of someone separate 138 00:07:37,264 --> 00:07:39,933 Speaker 2: from the rest of their characteristics, like whether they're funny 139 00:07:39,944 --> 00:07:43,254 Speaker 2: or smart. Over time, those things blend together because you 140 00:07:43,264 --> 00:07:45,574 Speaker 2: see the person as a whole person as you mature. 141 00:07:45,773 --> 00:07:48,113 Speaker 2: The only rationale behind me saying that is trying to 142 00:07:48,123 --> 00:07:51,424 Speaker 2: convey those two things, physically attractive, but really don't like 143 00:07:51,433 --> 00:07:55,153 Speaker 2: the person as an attempted funny, shocking way of conveying 144 00:07:55,164 --> 00:07:56,373 Speaker 2: that view to my mates. 145 00:07:56,863 --> 00:07:59,593 Speaker 1: Did you feel pressure to be a certain way, like 146 00:07:59,604 --> 00:08:02,424 Speaker 1: being aggressive like that towards girls when you were around 147 00:08:02,433 --> 00:08:03,294 Speaker 1: your mates back then 148 00:08:04,224 --> 00:08:06,984 Speaker 2: there's a general pressure. When you're that age, your body 149 00:08:06,993 --> 00:08:09,724 Speaker 2: is going through all these changes and the hormones and stuff, 150 00:08:10,104 --> 00:08:13,884 Speaker 2: you're naturally more focused on physical attractiveness. It's a pretty 151 00:08:13,893 --> 00:08:17,083 Speaker 2: hyper pressure to see girls as physical beings as opposed 152 00:08:17,093 --> 00:08:20,083 Speaker 2: to anything else. I don't think I fully succumb to it. 153 00:08:20,093 --> 00:08:23,004 Speaker 2: But for teenage boys, girls are predominantly this sexual thing, 154 00:08:23,014 --> 00:08:26,493 Speaker 2: which is more about them than the girls. Teenage boys 155 00:08:26,504 --> 00:08:29,924 Speaker 2: are very hyper sexualized creatures, and that flows through their 156 00:08:29,933 --> 00:08:32,284 Speaker 2: social relationships with other boys in particular, 157 00:08:33,143 --> 00:08:36,674 Speaker 2: the cool kids in school for boys are the ones 158 00:08:36,784 --> 00:08:39,884 Speaker 2: the girls like. It's all filtered through a prism of sex. 159 00:08:40,264 --> 00:08:42,523 Speaker 2: Why do I want to be cool as a teenage boy? 160 00:08:42,534 --> 00:08:45,003 Speaker 2: It's because I think chicks will like it. That is 161 00:08:45,013 --> 00:08:46,763 Speaker 2: the one currency that there is. 162 00:08:47,064 --> 00:08:50,273 Speaker 1: Did you ever consider at the time about how the 163 00:08:50,284 --> 00:08:52,564 Speaker 1: things you said about these girls in your classes, how 164 00:08:52,573 --> 00:08:54,794 Speaker 1: that might affect them if they ever found out? 165 00:08:55,523 --> 00:08:57,674 Speaker 2: I think 14 year old me if I found out 166 00:08:57,684 --> 00:09:00,044 Speaker 2: she heard that I said that I would be mortified. 167 00:09:00,443 --> 00:09:02,124 Speaker 2: We live in this bubble where we think we can 168 00:09:02,133 --> 00:09:04,153 Speaker 2: say anything to each other, and it's not going to 169 00:09:04,164 --> 00:09:08,143 Speaker 2: go any further. It mostly doesn't, but nowadays those conversations 170 00:09:08,153 --> 00:09:10,843 Speaker 2: don't just happen between a group of boys on a bus. 171 00:09:10,854 --> 00:09:13,693 Speaker 2: It's online. There's a record of it. They put spreadsheets 172 00:09:13,703 --> 00:09:15,724 Speaker 2: together and shit like that. I don't have a great 173 00:09:15,734 --> 00:09:18,564 Speaker 2: memory of those years. I don't remember those stupid conversations 174 00:09:18,573 --> 00:09:21,624 Speaker 2: with the boys. They're not actually important for a teenage boy. 175 00:09:21,963 --> 00:09:24,434 Speaker 2: It's like talking about the footy. I don't remember how 176 00:09:24,443 --> 00:09:25,744 Speaker 2: horrific they actually were. 177 00:09:26,633 --> 00:09:28,773 Speaker 2: The only exception to that is if they start talking 178 00:09:28,784 --> 00:09:30,724 Speaker 2: about a girl you like or get along with, not 179 00:09:30,734 --> 00:09:33,953 Speaker 2: just admire from afar. If someone says something like this 180 00:09:33,963 --> 00:09:37,653 Speaker 2: or even less horrific, then boys will take offence. They 181 00:09:37,664 --> 00:09:40,213 Speaker 2: have to have some type of relationship with her. That 182 00:09:40,224 --> 00:09:42,054 Speaker 2: explains some of the fights they get into 183 00:09:42,963 --> 00:09:45,924 Speaker 1: how long after school and those teenage years Do you 184 00:09:45,934 --> 00:09:48,224 Speaker 1: think this kind of thinking about women continues? 185 00:09:48,994 --> 00:09:51,273 Speaker 2: You recognise what it is as you get older and 186 00:09:51,284 --> 00:09:53,934 Speaker 2: it leaves you. You actually start to have relationships with 187 00:09:53,943 --> 00:09:57,133 Speaker 2: women where you're actually friends. And once you experience relationships 188 00:09:57,143 --> 00:09:59,494 Speaker 2: with women to the point, it's a normal thing, then 189 00:09:59,503 --> 00:10:02,003 Speaker 2: it's pretty impossible to have that kind of approach to life. 190 00:10:02,013 --> 00:10:04,054 Speaker 2: It's a phase that boys go through that they do 191 00:10:04,064 --> 00:10:08,013 Speaker 2: grow out of if they have normal, healthy relationships with women. 192 00:10:08,583 --> 00:10:10,833 Speaker 2: When I see the incel movement, it makes me feel 193 00:10:10,843 --> 00:10:12,713 Speaker 2: like those boys never grew up and never had a 194 00:10:12,724 --> 00:10:15,693 Speaker 2: normal relationship with women and kept that mentality so that 195 00:10:15,703 --> 00:10:18,523 Speaker 2: the only thing that they have left is anger, and 196 00:10:18,534 --> 00:10:22,484 Speaker 2: they're looking for someone to blame. It's all women's fault. Apparently, girls, 197 00:10:22,494 --> 00:10:24,994 Speaker 2: while they're going through something similar at the same age, 198 00:10:25,164 --> 00:10:27,804 Speaker 2: they're more capable of empathy and more considerate and more 199 00:10:27,814 --> 00:10:30,883 Speaker 2: aware of social dynamics. Whereas boys just have this obsession 200 00:10:30,893 --> 00:10:31,564 Speaker 2: with girls, 201 00:10:32,253 --> 00:10:34,674 Speaker 2: it's both chemical and biological. It's the one thing that 202 00:10:34,684 --> 00:10:37,414 Speaker 2: matters most in life. For a 14 year old boy, 203 00:10:37,424 --> 00:10:40,994 Speaker 2: success all breaks down to sex and maybe money. They're immature, 204 00:10:41,003 --> 00:10:43,874 Speaker 2: but their bodies are growing bigger and stronger. It's problematic. 205 00:10:46,443 --> 00:10:49,864 Speaker 1: This conversation with my teenage friend gave me some insight 206 00:10:49,874 --> 00:10:52,023 Speaker 1: into how he was thinking at the time and the 207 00:10:52,034 --> 00:10:55,093 Speaker 1: motivations for him doing what he did. But that's one 208 00:10:55,104 --> 00:10:59,244 Speaker 1: person's perspective. What do the experts say? Elizabeth Shaw is 209 00:10:59,253 --> 00:11:02,203 Speaker 1: the CEO of relationships Australia, New South Wales and a 210 00:11:02,213 --> 00:11:06,984 Speaker 1: clinical and counselling psychologist. Elizabeth. How much truth is there 211 00:11:07,044 --> 00:11:09,633 Speaker 1: in that boys are reacting to a chemical and biological 212 00:11:09,643 --> 00:11:12,343 Speaker 1: trigger here. How much of it is that and how 213 00:11:12,354 --> 00:11:14,643 Speaker 1: much of it is social and environmental, or is it 214 00:11:14,653 --> 00:11:15,304 Speaker 1: just both? 215 00:11:15,744 --> 00:11:18,684 Speaker 1: Look, it is always a mix of two. Social and 216 00:11:18,693 --> 00:11:23,814 Speaker 1: environmental is stronger in this case. So it's certainly the 217 00:11:23,823 --> 00:11:27,653 Speaker 1: case in terms of studies on moral development that boys 218 00:11:27,664 --> 00:11:30,304 Speaker 1: and girls are going through a lot during the adolescent 219 00:11:30,314 --> 00:11:34,224 Speaker 1: years and are still forming thoughts around their belief systems 220 00:11:34,234 --> 00:11:37,643 Speaker 1: and their attitudes. And so that's quite normal with moral 221 00:11:37,653 --> 00:11:41,083 Speaker 1: development that people are working themselves out in terms of 222 00:11:41,093 --> 00:11:44,564 Speaker 1: emotional development. It is sort of widely understood. 223 00:11:44,648 --> 00:11:49,159 Speaker 1: Boys are maturing at a later stage than girls. But 224 00:11:49,169 --> 00:11:52,229 Speaker 1: socialisation just plays such a huge part in that in 225 00:11:52,239 --> 00:11:55,609 Speaker 1: terms of what we expect, because the old adage that 226 00:11:55,619 --> 00:12:00,268 Speaker 1: boys will be boys really does mean that parents and 227 00:12:00,278 --> 00:12:05,179 Speaker 1: caregivers of various sorts often have more of a hands off. Oh, well, 228 00:12:05,189 --> 00:12:08,349 Speaker 1: a boy. He's just being ridiculous. We'll just walk away, 229 00:12:08,448 --> 00:12:11,489 Speaker 1: whereas a girl does get more into trouble and there's 230 00:12:11,499 --> 00:12:13,468 Speaker 1: much more of a clamping down on. 231 00:12:13,703 --> 00:12:16,453 Speaker 1: That's not what girls should be doing. So I think 232 00:12:16,463 --> 00:12:19,044 Speaker 1: we give girls a great deal, More guidance. I mean, 233 00:12:19,054 --> 00:12:23,453 Speaker 1: some would argue a lot more rigidity and restriction. Of course, 234 00:12:23,463 --> 00:12:26,403 Speaker 1: over time that's certainly been the case. But I think 235 00:12:26,414 --> 00:12:29,953 Speaker 1: what it means is that boys have a sense of 236 00:12:29,963 --> 00:12:32,273 Speaker 1: getting away with things which is put down into the 237 00:12:32,284 --> 00:12:32,763 Speaker 1: heading of 238 00:12:33,023 --> 00:12:36,943 Speaker 1: as if maturity will just happen later and it doesn't 239 00:12:36,953 --> 00:12:40,234 Speaker 1: just happen by itself. We actually mature in response to 240 00:12:40,244 --> 00:12:43,814 Speaker 1: the feedback we get about what is socially acceptable. Well, 241 00:12:43,823 --> 00:12:46,744 Speaker 1: the guy I spoke to said that this is a 242 00:12:46,753 --> 00:12:50,294 Speaker 1: phase that most boys grow out of. Is that true? 243 00:12:50,304 --> 00:12:52,203 Speaker 1: Do you think? And do we need to sort of 244 00:12:52,633 --> 00:12:55,284 Speaker 1: somehow factor that in to limit the damage they do 245 00:12:55,294 --> 00:12:57,703 Speaker 1: to themselves and others during that period? And can we 246 00:12:57,713 --> 00:12:58,164 Speaker 1: do that? 247 00:12:58,703 --> 00:13:01,104 Speaker 1: Look, I think there's a few things going on in 248 00:13:01,114 --> 00:13:04,984 Speaker 1: the behaviour that we've seen. So one is to remember 249 00:13:04,994 --> 00:13:08,403 Speaker 1: that girls and boys do this at a lower level. 250 00:13:08,424 --> 00:13:13,083 Speaker 1: So talking about who's hot in class is something that 251 00:13:13,093 --> 00:13:17,443 Speaker 1: kids do girls and boys and so that's not restricted. 252 00:13:17,523 --> 00:13:20,744 Speaker 1: Boys, what can start out as a joke and you 253 00:13:20,753 --> 00:13:22,463 Speaker 1: want to be in on the joke and you do 254 00:13:22,474 --> 00:13:24,753 Speaker 1: want to be cool, and you do want to be 255 00:13:24,823 --> 00:13:28,093 Speaker 1: looking like you're accepting conversations. You certainly don't want to 256 00:13:28,104 --> 00:13:31,104 Speaker 1: be the killjoy because being part of the joke is 257 00:13:31,114 --> 00:13:33,503 Speaker 1: part of being included. And if you're not included, that's 258 00:13:33,513 --> 00:13:36,224 Speaker 1: the end of your social life and your social currency 259 00:13:36,554 --> 00:13:39,994 Speaker 1: at school. So the stakes are actually very high for kids. 260 00:13:40,153 --> 00:13:42,843 Speaker 1: They are in a closed system, so if they are 261 00:13:42,854 --> 00:13:45,874 Speaker 1: a social pariah, they're trapped there for the rest of 262 00:13:45,883 --> 00:13:49,253 Speaker 1: their schooling, which could be, what, 3, 4 years to go? 263 00:13:49,424 --> 00:13:52,193 Speaker 1: And if they actually are in the out group, that's 264 00:13:52,203 --> 00:13:53,914 Speaker 1: a big deal. You know, if you're in a work 265 00:13:54,003 --> 00:13:57,304 Speaker 1: place where something happens, you can just change jobs. But 266 00:13:57,314 --> 00:14:00,713 Speaker 1: changing schools is not in your control. So how you 267 00:14:00,724 --> 00:14:04,503 Speaker 1: navigate being part of the group and being your own 268 00:14:04,513 --> 00:14:08,114 Speaker 1: person is actually a skill for life. And that's not 269 00:14:08,124 --> 00:14:12,273 Speaker 1: something you work out when you're 14, 15, 16, 17. It's something 270 00:14:12,284 --> 00:14:14,744 Speaker 1: that you do, you know right through your twenties. You know, 271 00:14:14,753 --> 00:14:18,624 Speaker 1: it's very difficult, but in a closed system, your options 272 00:14:18,823 --> 00:14:21,284 Speaker 1: are less and girls and boys do this as a 273 00:14:21,294 --> 00:14:22,023 Speaker 1: bit of fun. 274 00:14:22,234 --> 00:14:26,054 Speaker 1: What can happen then is there might be like any joke. 275 00:14:26,064 --> 00:14:29,253 Speaker 1: It can become concretized by the people who push the 276 00:14:29,263 --> 00:14:32,093 Speaker 1: extremity of it. So then it maybe turns into a 277 00:14:32,104 --> 00:14:35,453 Speaker 1: written document or something that's going around on social media. 278 00:14:35,713 --> 00:14:37,564 Speaker 1: So there's some people who are part of that who 279 00:14:37,573 --> 00:14:40,443 Speaker 1: are still doing the I just want to be part 280 00:14:40,453 --> 00:14:42,333 Speaker 1: of the joke, even if I'm now 281 00:14:42,419 --> 00:14:46,218 Speaker 1: getting uncomfortable and there's others that are full on thinking 282 00:14:46,388 --> 00:14:51,088 Speaker 1: this is permissible. But generally what they are also in 283 00:14:51,099 --> 00:14:52,979 Speaker 1: that stage, if they were thinking about it and they 284 00:14:52,989 --> 00:14:55,208 Speaker 1: are mostly not thinking about it, is that it's a 285 00:14:55,218 --> 00:14:58,849 Speaker 1: victimless crime. This is something just between us and the 286 00:14:58,859 --> 00:15:01,948 Speaker 1: girls will never know. So what others don't know doesn't 287 00:15:01,958 --> 00:15:02,479 Speaker 1: hurt them. 288 00:15:02,804 --> 00:15:06,564 Speaker 1: Now again, that sort of moral disengagement. I see that 289 00:15:06,573 --> 00:15:10,513 Speaker 1: in grown ups I work with couples who've been unfaithful 290 00:15:10,523 --> 00:15:13,753 Speaker 1: to their partner and said to me as grown ups, Well, 291 00:15:13,763 --> 00:15:16,864 Speaker 1: what they didn't know doesn't hurt them. So that's why 292 00:15:16,874 --> 00:15:19,763 Speaker 1: I didn't tell them so this sort of moral disengagement 293 00:15:19,773 --> 00:15:23,073 Speaker 1: is not unique to that age group, but I think 294 00:15:23,083 --> 00:15:25,643 Speaker 1: the other thing is for some of these kids is 295 00:15:25,653 --> 00:15:28,193 Speaker 1: that they are coming from a home life where some 296 00:15:28,203 --> 00:15:30,544 Speaker 1: of this behaviour is permissible. 297 00:15:30,633 --> 00:15:33,953 Speaker 1: So the sense of being shocked by it really depends 298 00:15:33,963 --> 00:15:37,474 Speaker 1: on your social norms and what's been established. I think 299 00:15:37,484 --> 00:15:39,624 Speaker 1: for some people, you know, they might go home and 300 00:15:39,633 --> 00:15:41,984 Speaker 1: have parents who say, Oh, that's just boys being boys 301 00:15:41,994 --> 00:15:45,193 Speaker 1: That's a bit of a laugh and therefore they've lost 302 00:15:45,203 --> 00:15:49,073 Speaker 1: their guardrails around what would be acceptable. And they really 303 00:15:49,083 --> 00:15:51,354 Speaker 1: don't know enough about girls. Many of them don't have 304 00:15:51,364 --> 00:15:55,674 Speaker 1: much contact in any sort of closer, intimate way with girls. 305 00:15:55,684 --> 00:15:58,364 Speaker 1: They actually have no idea how they're coming across. 306 00:15:59,203 --> 00:16:01,684 Speaker 1: How then do we handle that? Because something that even 307 00:16:01,693 --> 00:16:04,503 Speaker 1: the principal of Yarra Valley Grammar said as well as 308 00:16:04,513 --> 00:16:08,314 Speaker 1: our teenage friend, they believe they exist in this bubble, 309 00:16:08,323 --> 00:16:11,593 Speaker 1: these boys, where no one's gonna find out what they do. 310 00:16:11,864 --> 00:16:14,554 Speaker 1: And even when they do get caught in this instance 311 00:16:14,564 --> 00:16:17,903 Speaker 1: like they have with the spreadsheet, they don't fully understand 312 00:16:17,914 --> 00:16:21,034 Speaker 1: the consequences, and they don't really get that. What they've 313 00:16:21,044 --> 00:16:23,564 Speaker 1: done is wrong or why even it's wrong. How do 314 00:16:23,573 --> 00:16:24,273 Speaker 1: we handle that? 315 00:16:25,213 --> 00:16:28,003 Speaker 1: Well, see, their frame of reference is it was a 316 00:16:28,013 --> 00:16:32,143 Speaker 1: joke between a closed group and so what is the harm? 317 00:16:32,153 --> 00:16:36,234 Speaker 1: And that's a bigger question than you know. Others can just, 318 00:16:36,244 --> 00:16:38,093 Speaker 1: you know, like you and I or others who are 319 00:16:38,104 --> 00:16:40,633 Speaker 1: listening might just say, Well, it's just wrong, you know? 320 00:16:40,643 --> 00:16:43,213 Speaker 1: We just know it's wrong. Well, what we have to 321 00:16:43,224 --> 00:16:46,874 Speaker 1: do is really engage with the bigger question, which is 322 00:16:46,883 --> 00:16:49,734 Speaker 1: why is it wrong? And it's not just saying Well, 323 00:16:49,744 --> 00:16:51,843 Speaker 1: it just is. And if it's, it should be obvious. 324 00:16:51,854 --> 00:16:53,833 Speaker 1: And if it's not obvious, you're a bad person, 325 00:16:54,064 --> 00:16:58,073 Speaker 1: is to say, truly stop and engage and be curious about. Well, 326 00:16:58,083 --> 00:17:01,843 Speaker 1: why did this not seem wrong? So, yes, if you're 327 00:17:01,854 --> 00:17:06,564 Speaker 1: saying it's a joke between boys, are jokes between boys acceptable, 328 00:17:06,573 --> 00:17:08,674 Speaker 1: you know, is, is there a point where it's no 329 00:17:08,684 --> 00:17:10,903 Speaker 1: longer a joke? And who gets to judge that? So 330 00:17:10,914 --> 00:17:12,763 Speaker 1: that's one strand of a conversation. 331 00:17:13,244 --> 00:17:17,263 Speaker 1: But the other is really about the attitudes towards women, 332 00:17:17,273 --> 00:17:20,184 Speaker 1: which is outside of what's a joke or not a joke. 333 00:17:20,263 --> 00:17:24,574 Speaker 1: I think a lot of concepts say around paedophilia. People 334 00:17:24,584 --> 00:17:27,743 Speaker 1: of that age group are often having jokes about Oh, 335 00:17:27,753 --> 00:17:30,084 Speaker 1: you you know, they're saying things like this because they 336 00:17:30,094 --> 00:17:33,733 Speaker 1: actually have no understanding of what it really is like 337 00:17:34,054 --> 00:17:36,653 Speaker 1: to be caught up in a web of abuse. So 338 00:17:36,664 --> 00:17:38,863 Speaker 1: I think a lot of these words because they are 339 00:17:38,873 --> 00:17:41,444 Speaker 1: kind of aware that it's wrong. But it's not part 340 00:17:41,454 --> 00:17:45,243 Speaker 1: of their realm or their life or their attunement. They 341 00:17:45,253 --> 00:17:48,794 Speaker 1: start to become almost things you can bandy around, so 342 00:17:48,804 --> 00:17:52,034 Speaker 1: talking about rape as if it means nothing. It's partly 343 00:17:52,044 --> 00:17:55,194 Speaker 1: because of their complete ignorance. So I think what we 344 00:17:55,204 --> 00:17:58,743 Speaker 1: need to do is be curious about. Well, how do 345 00:17:58,853 --> 00:18:01,194 Speaker 1: these sorts of conversations get to this 346 00:18:01,446 --> 00:18:04,127 Speaker 1: point? How do we be curious about why, in that 347 00:18:04,137 --> 00:18:07,367 Speaker 1: moment it made sense to participate? Not well, it doesn't 348 00:18:07,377 --> 00:18:09,596 Speaker 1: make sense. You've just got to stop it. It's more. 349 00:18:09,606 --> 00:18:14,287 Speaker 1: Let's stop in tune to these kids about why did 350 00:18:14,296 --> 00:18:16,556 Speaker 1: it make sense? And what you'll find in that group 351 00:18:16,566 --> 00:18:20,127 Speaker 1: is some people who are deeply uncomfortable but were trying 352 00:18:20,137 --> 00:18:23,367 Speaker 1: to work out. How do you navigate this to others 353 00:18:23,377 --> 00:18:27,257 Speaker 1: who were entirely comfortable with it? So even within the group, 354 00:18:27,267 --> 00:18:28,527 Speaker 1: you've got to look at that. But what? 355 00:18:28,740 --> 00:18:31,370 Speaker 1: What a school can do is, as they have done, 356 00:18:31,379 --> 00:18:33,820 Speaker 1: is the punitive end. I'm not saying that's a good 357 00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:37,019 Speaker 1: thing or not, but they've expelled people. But often what 358 00:18:37,029 --> 00:18:40,759 Speaker 1: systems do is they scapegoat? So they'll say, Well, those 359 00:18:40,769 --> 00:18:43,549 Speaker 1: two or three kids were the ringleaders. They've got to go. 360 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,539 Speaker 1: And now everybody else is all right and everybody calms down. 361 00:18:46,769 --> 00:18:50,570 Speaker 1: That actually in itself is a misapplication of a solution. 362 00:18:50,590 --> 00:18:53,060 Speaker 1: What we need to do is be having more complex 363 00:18:53,070 --> 00:18:55,820 Speaker 1: conversations with kids at home and at school about 364 00:18:56,133 --> 00:18:58,434 Speaker 1: Well, why does Andrew Tate appeal to you? What do 365 00:18:58,444 --> 00:19:00,523 Speaker 1: you think is going on for other kids that he 366 00:19:00,534 --> 00:19:04,243 Speaker 1: really has struck a chord? What parts of that really, 367 00:19:04,554 --> 00:19:08,034 Speaker 1: you know, fuel your own sense of esteem? You know, 368 00:19:08,044 --> 00:19:10,554 Speaker 1: why do you watch that rather than other things? Would 369 00:19:10,564 --> 00:19:13,233 Speaker 1: you like to see other things? I think moving in 370 00:19:13,243 --> 00:19:15,304 Speaker 1: to be curious and inquire. 371 00:19:15,409 --> 00:19:18,539 Speaker 1: Then we can help them solve the problems that are afoot. 372 00:19:18,748 --> 00:19:20,829 Speaker 1: So maybe for one kid, it's Well, I didn't know 373 00:19:20,839 --> 00:19:23,189 Speaker 1: how to stand up to the group. That's the separate 374 00:19:23,199 --> 00:19:26,289 Speaker 1: problem to the one who says, Well, rape doesn't hurt, 375 00:19:26,299 --> 00:19:29,228 Speaker 1: does it? That's a different problem altogether. You know, we 376 00:19:29,238 --> 00:19:31,748 Speaker 1: have to work out what's going on here, and it's 377 00:19:31,758 --> 00:19:35,189 Speaker 1: not a simple thing. And and just clamping down is 378 00:19:35,199 --> 00:19:38,789 Speaker 1: not a solution, because kids always expect the older generation 379 00:19:38,799 --> 00:19:41,819 Speaker 1: to clamp down, and they will just go underground and 380 00:19:41,829 --> 00:19:42,748 Speaker 1: feel indignant. 381 00:19:44,554 --> 00:19:47,704 Speaker 1: When wrapping up the conversation with my former classmate, he 382 00:19:47,714 --> 00:19:50,773 Speaker 1: mentioned the Yarra Valley High School case and said this 383 00:19:51,064 --> 00:19:54,893 Speaker 2: boys getting expelled for putting lists together and ranking girls. Mark 384 00:19:54,903 --> 00:19:58,574 Speaker 2: Zuckerberg started his career doing that like, literally, exactly that. 385 00:19:58,834 --> 00:20:01,194 Speaker 2: Boys know that they watch that kind of thing and 386 00:20:01,204 --> 00:20:02,214 Speaker 2: are influenced by it. 387 00:20:02,503 --> 00:20:05,844 Speaker 1: Something to think about. Thanks for tuning in today. Friends. 388 00:20:05,853 --> 00:20:08,794 Speaker 1: The Quicky is produced by me, Claire Murphy and executive 389 00:20:08,804 --> 00:20:12,044 Speaker 1: producer Taylah Strano, with audio production by Jacob Round.