WEBVTT - MID: Holly Wainwright — Grief Has No Time For Your Bullshit 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:14.807 You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Mea acknowledges 0:00:14.887 --> 0:00:17.607 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.647 --> 0:00:19.367 is recorded on out Louders. 0:00:19.407 --> 0:00:22.087 If you're missing your weekly out loud routine over the break, 0:00:22.167 --> 0:00:24.367 how could you not? We wanted to let you know 0:00:24.487 --> 0:00:28.287 that we're still dropping episodes for Ma Mea subscribers all 0:00:28.367 --> 0:00:31.767 summer long. So as a subscriber, you get full access 0:00:31.807 --> 0:00:35.007 to out Loud, including the back catalog of over two 0:00:35.207 --> 0:00:39.407 hundred and fifty subscriber only episodes. Subscribe to Mamma Mia 0:00:39.647 --> 0:00:41.447 via the link in the episode description. 0:00:41.847 --> 0:00:44.287 Hello out louders, it's Holly wayIn right here. 0:00:44.687 --> 0:00:44.927 Now. 0:00:44.967 --> 0:00:48.207 Look, many of you know that I host another podcast 0:00:48.247 --> 0:00:51.807 on the Muma Mere network called mid and Today, I 0:00:51.847 --> 0:00:55.087 wanted to share a particular conversation that is probably the 0:00:55.127 --> 0:00:58.847 most meaningful that I had in all of twenty twenty four. 0:00:59.567 --> 0:01:02.167 No matter our age or our live stage, this is 0:01:02.207 --> 0:01:04.687 a topic that has either touched us or is going 0:01:04.727 --> 0:01:07.447 to touch us, or that we're living with every day. 0:01:07.647 --> 0:01:11.447 And it's grief, and this time can be especially difficult 0:01:11.767 --> 0:01:14.807 for people who have lost someone or of facing losing someone. 0:01:15.407 --> 0:01:17.927 If that's you, or if it speaks to you. You 0:01:17.967 --> 0:01:20.487 are going to love this conversation that I had about 0:01:20.527 --> 0:01:23.967 death and grief with Dr Jackie Bailey. She is someone 0:01:24.007 --> 0:01:27.167 called a death walker. She is also a funeral celebrant. 0:01:27.527 --> 0:01:29.447 And I don't know that I've ever had such a 0:01:29.447 --> 0:01:32.167 beautiful and honest conversation about life and death as I 0:01:32.247 --> 0:01:36.207 had with the amazing Dr Jackie Bailey. So please listen 0:01:36.247 --> 0:01:39.487 to it. Sending massive love your way and I'll see 0:01:39.487 --> 0:01:43.487 you on the end of this episode. No fancy words today, 0:01:44.127 --> 0:01:49.647 no jokes, no flowery metaphors and tricky punctuation, no alliteration, 0:01:50.007 --> 0:01:55.567 strategic repetition, no rightly tricks. Grief has no time for 0:01:55.647 --> 0:01:59.527 my bullshit. Loss isn't interested in how clever your sentences 0:01:59.607 --> 0:02:03.087 might be or how they sound read out loud. Midwomen 0:02:03.207 --> 0:02:05.487 know that there isn't a damn thing that can step 0:02:05.527 --> 0:02:08.687 in and tap dance away the empty middle of losing 0:02:08.727 --> 0:02:13.887 someone you love. That it rearranges you inside and out, 0:02:14.527 --> 0:02:17.647 opens up a space and floods it with missing and 0:02:17.687 --> 0:02:23.167 with resentment or anger maybe and with longing. Grief comes 0:02:23.167 --> 0:02:27.327 to everyone, some sooner than others, with brutal speed or 0:02:27.367 --> 0:02:32.967 an agonizing crawl. The most extraordinary of ordinary, inevitable pains, 0:02:33.687 --> 0:02:35.847 the one that can knock you, of course, and leave 0:02:35.887 --> 0:02:42.567 you breathless and reeling, aching and empty. For years, I've 0:02:42.607 --> 0:02:45.567 had the outrageous good fortune of still being able to 0:02:45.607 --> 0:02:48.247 touch a screen and hear my mother complaining about something 0:02:48.287 --> 0:02:51.527 my brother isn't doing, or to see my father's face 0:02:51.607 --> 0:02:53.647 all too close as he tries to work out why 0:02:53.687 --> 0:02:56.447 the image on the iPad is tipped on its side. 0:02:56.847 --> 0:02:59.207 I know how precious that is for as long as 0:02:59.247 --> 0:03:02.287 I get it, because I have sat with my beloved 0:03:02.287 --> 0:03:05.247 and held him as his excellent mother left us. I 0:03:05.287 --> 0:03:08.087 have missed an old friend's slow smile, knowing I'll never 0:03:08.087 --> 0:03:11.847 hear him laugh again. I've seen the terrible gap left 0:03:11.847 --> 0:03:15.207 by my teenage boyfriend. I've watched a wonderful man's daughter 0:03:15.287 --> 0:03:18.167 grow up without him. I've mourned the loss of babies 0:03:18.207 --> 0:03:21.727 I never got to hold. We've all felt just a 0:03:21.727 --> 0:03:24.887 little of it, or much too much. But I know 0:03:25.087 --> 0:03:29.327 my outrageous good fortune. Today. My children are safe on 0:03:29.407 --> 0:03:33.607 their damn screens, and my brother, his teens, my friend, family, 0:03:33.647 --> 0:03:36.127 and my partner in life are all still going about 0:03:36.167 --> 0:03:40.127 their ordinary days. There I go, trying to pretty up 0:03:40.167 --> 0:03:42.967 these words about the worst thing that can happen to us. 0:03:43.687 --> 0:03:47.287 Midwomen lie in bed and count their people, silently tallying 0:03:47.327 --> 0:03:50.207 their luck. We don't want to talk about it, but 0:03:50.247 --> 0:03:54.367 if it hasn't already visited, grief is looming, and so 0:03:54.407 --> 0:03:57.047 we care, and we nurture and soothe, and we hope 0:03:57.087 --> 0:03:59.847 we can keep it at bay if we just don't 0:03:59.887 --> 0:04:04.607 mention it. Today we're mentioning it because silence is lonely, 0:04:04.967 --> 0:04:07.367 and grief is the price we pay for love. As 0:04:07.367 --> 0:04:10.887 a wise woman said, life without loss is a life 0:04:10.887 --> 0:04:14.127 without love, and mid women know that isn't worth the trade. 0:04:14.927 --> 0:04:18.527 There's the solace in sharing always, and mid women know 0:04:18.647 --> 0:04:26.487 that too. Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife, 0:04:26.527 --> 0:04:31.127 mid family, mid identity crisis. And today we're talking about 0:04:31.167 --> 0:04:34.047 the thing we're not allowed to talk about. And I 0:04:34.087 --> 0:04:36.127 don't mean because someone will wag a finger at us 0:04:36.127 --> 0:04:38.447 if we do. I mean because it goes to the 0:04:38.447 --> 0:04:41.647 core of everything we're afraid of. Even if many of 0:04:41.647 --> 0:04:44.487 the women listening to this today are living there. Right now, 0:04:44.847 --> 0:04:49.687 we're talking about grief. If you're thinking that this episode 0:04:49.767 --> 0:04:53.327 sounds too much, then for you, right now, perhaps you're 0:04:53.407 --> 0:04:56.687 right but if you're thinking it sounds heavy and difficult 0:04:56.727 --> 0:05:00.167 and depressing, then you should stay because it's actually anything 0:05:00.247 --> 0:05:05.167 but thanks to our extraordinary guest, Dr Jackie Bailey is 0:05:05.207 --> 0:05:08.287 a death walker. She walks with the dying and she 0:05:08.367 --> 0:05:12.567 brings comfort ritual to their people. She's an interfaith minister 0:05:12.687 --> 0:05:15.647 and a funeral celebrant, and she's a writer. I met 0:05:15.727 --> 0:05:17.807 her at a regional book event last year, and after 0:05:17.847 --> 0:05:20.167 she'd stood up and discussed her book The Eulogy, in 0:05:20.167 --> 0:05:22.087 front of an audience on the panel, we were both 0:05:22.127 --> 0:05:25.527 on Her book line snaked around the block with people 0:05:25.567 --> 0:05:29.567 wanting to buy it. Why because of her own experience 0:05:29.607 --> 0:05:32.047 of grief, having lived, as she's about to tell you, 0:05:32.487 --> 0:05:35.527 in close proximity to death since she was seven, and 0:05:35.567 --> 0:05:39.607 that's given her a particularly beautiful, simple, comforting but no 0:05:39.727 --> 0:05:43.767 bullshit perspective on it. In this conversation, we talk about that, 0:05:44.167 --> 0:05:45.807 and we talk about what to do if someone you 0:05:45.887 --> 0:05:48.247 love is dying, and we talk about what to do 0:05:48.287 --> 0:05:51.047 if that person is you, And we talk about the 0:05:51.127 --> 0:05:54.287 kind of spiritual practices that actually soothe, and we talk 0:05:54.327 --> 0:05:56.647 about how there are no shortcuts to getting over it, 0:05:57.047 --> 0:05:58.967 and we talk about how to write a eulogy for 0:05:59.007 --> 0:06:01.447 someone you love but maybe didn't even like very much. 0:06:02.247 --> 0:06:06.607 It's a serious, important, sometimes funny conversation about something that 0:06:06.647 --> 0:06:12.887 none of us want to talk about. Apart from Jackie. 0:06:13.607 --> 0:06:18.887 You are an interfaith minister, a funeral celebrant, so what 0:06:18.927 --> 0:06:23.047 we call funeral celebrate. But I've also seen you described 0:06:23.047 --> 0:06:26.327 as a death walker. What is a death walker? 0:06:26.767 --> 0:06:29.567 It's not a character from the Game of Strains like 0:06:29.967 --> 0:06:36.967 first Up unfortunately. I mean, anyway, it depends on which 0:06:39.847 --> 0:06:43.487 that's what sena farrago who's like a you know, guiding 0:06:43.567 --> 0:06:46.607 light in the deathy kind of movement in Australian in 0:06:46.647 --> 0:06:46.927 the world. 0:06:46.927 --> 0:06:48.687 I have to just stop you there because I've heard 0:06:48.687 --> 0:06:51.647 you on another podcast talk about deathy's. You were like 0:06:51.767 --> 0:06:54.607 talking about your work and you know your research, and 0:06:54.647 --> 0:06:56.607 you said this one's for the other Deathy's And I 0:06:56.647 --> 0:06:59.927 was like, okay, step back, what's a deathy. 0:07:00.207 --> 0:07:03.647 Or the people like me who are kind of obsessed 0:07:03.967 --> 0:07:05.407 with that part of life. 0:07:06.087 --> 0:07:11.247 Yeah, so we did research it. Yeah, yeah, you. 0:07:11.407 --> 0:07:14.487 Sort of your death eas That's where I'm most comfortable. 0:07:14.807 --> 0:07:18.727 So yeah, I'm far more comfortable officiating a funeral than 0:07:18.727 --> 0:07:22.327 a wedding, for example. Yeah, it's just my comfortable space. 0:07:22.327 --> 0:07:25.967 It's really intimate, meaningful, authentic, or a lot of stuff 0:07:26.007 --> 0:07:28.207 is stripped away, maybe also because of them from a 0:07:28.247 --> 0:07:31.687 big family, so I'm really used to negotiating the all 0:07:31.727 --> 0:07:33.727 the issues that come up in that context. It's just 0:07:33.807 --> 0:07:35.887 my I wouldn't say it's my happy place. It's not 0:07:35.927 --> 0:07:38.567 my happy place. It's not happy, but it's my most comfortable. 0:07:38.807 --> 0:07:41.087 You sort of study to be an inter faith minister, 0:07:41.167 --> 0:07:43.847 don't you. Yeah, it's like you and you're ordained and everything, 0:07:43.847 --> 0:07:47.047 but it's a non religious role, that's right. Yeah, And 0:07:47.487 --> 0:07:49.807 I've seen you say that other people who you went 0:07:49.847 --> 0:07:52.887 through that with they might do things like be prison 0:07:53.247 --> 0:07:58.447 chaplains or like non religious pastors kind of is that right? Yeah, 0:07:58.447 --> 0:08:01.927 that's exactly right. But that you For you, it was 0:08:02.007 --> 0:08:05.727 always about death, that's what I read you say. Why 0:08:05.767 --> 0:08:06.367 do you think that? Is? 0:08:07.007 --> 0:08:11.607 Basically because since I was seven, about seven years old, 0:08:11.647 --> 0:08:16.287 my sister was dying and it took her thirty one 0:08:16.447 --> 0:08:19.807 years to die, which was a long time to live 0:08:19.927 --> 0:08:22.607 with that possibility. So I was obsessed with it from 0:08:22.647 --> 0:08:25.047 a very young age, thinking about the meaning of life 0:08:25.087 --> 0:08:26.767 and what happens after we die. 0:08:27.087 --> 0:08:29.207 Can you give a little bit of context to that, 0:08:29.367 --> 0:08:33.047 because I've read your beautiful book Eulogy, which is a 0:08:33.047 --> 0:08:37.247 fictionalized version of this story. But for the people listening, 0:08:37.287 --> 0:08:40.207 when you say your sister was dying from the age 0:08:40.247 --> 0:08:42.527 of seven, what do you mean what happened? 0:08:42.927 --> 0:08:46.047 So she was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor when 0:08:46.087 --> 0:08:49.167 she was ten and I was seven, and they thought 0:08:49.247 --> 0:08:51.087 she would only live for about a year, but she 0:08:51.207 --> 0:08:55.167 lived for another thirty odd years, gradually deteriorating though, so 0:08:55.967 --> 0:08:59.487 you know, physical and intellectual handicaps. And when she did 0:08:59.527 --> 0:09:02.007 eventually die, by then she was in a group home 0:09:02.047 --> 0:09:05.127 and she couldn't swallow or speak anymore. So it was 0:09:05.167 --> 0:09:08.607 a long time. It was a long time of watching 0:09:08.727 --> 0:09:13.527 her die, obviously not thinking the whole time about Like 0:09:13.567 --> 0:09:16.807 I didn't think in those terms when I was with her, 0:09:17.247 --> 0:09:19.927 But there's always part of you waiting for the phone 0:09:19.927 --> 0:09:23.767 call in the middle of the night. So nowadays my 0:09:23.847 --> 0:09:25.927 sister's died and both my parents have died, I don't 0:09:26.367 --> 0:09:28.567 really have to have that feeling anymore. 0:09:28.567 --> 0:09:31.007 I can turn my phone off. That must be a 0:09:31.087 --> 0:09:33.847 strange shift, because for almost your whole life you. 0:09:33.887 --> 0:09:36.327 Have I mean, I don't think you switch from one 0:09:36.367 --> 0:09:38.847 to the other immediately either sort of like any kind 0:09:38.847 --> 0:09:43.087 of I guess trauma that you're always attuned to it. 0:09:43.847 --> 0:09:45.487 So do you think from seven year old you and 0:09:45.527 --> 0:09:47.047 don't worry, I'm not going to try and be an 0:09:47.087 --> 0:09:51.127 amateur psychologist. Was very far from my area of expertise. 0:09:51.167 --> 0:09:54.927 But do you think that your need to like understand 0:09:54.967 --> 0:09:57.247 get your hands around death almost is that where it 0:09:57.287 --> 0:09:59.967 comes from? This is sort of thinking or being told 0:10:00.207 --> 0:10:01.407 this is going to happen to your sister. 0:10:01.487 --> 0:10:04.247 Yeah, definitely, definitely, because when you're that young as well. 0:10:04.807 --> 0:10:07.407 I mean she and I were very close. I felt 0:10:07.407 --> 0:10:10.527 like she was me and I was her. You know, 0:10:10.567 --> 0:10:13.767 there's that boundary is pretty blurry with siblings who are 0:10:13.847 --> 0:10:14.607 quite close to you. 0:10:14.687 --> 0:10:17.927 Because you're from a big family family seven. Yeah, and 0:10:17.967 --> 0:10:20.207 you're the youngest. Yeah, I'm the youngest. So you had 0:10:20.247 --> 0:10:22.607 a lot of like looking forward and up and trying 0:10:22.647 --> 0:10:25.367 to understand what the hell's going on in this big, 0:10:25.567 --> 0:10:26.487 chaotic family. Yeah. 0:10:26.487 --> 0:10:28.087 I mean, it's just what you're used to. It's just 0:10:28.087 --> 0:10:30.927 what you grow up with. But Alison was mine. Allison 0:10:31.007 --> 0:10:33.887 was mine and I was hers. She kind of looked 0:10:33.887 --> 0:10:40.367 out for me in that big, complicated, messy Catholic family household. Yeah, 0:10:40.487 --> 0:10:44.047 so when she got sick, it was really devastating for everybody. 0:10:44.487 --> 0:10:47.367 Which is kind of funny too, because this may sound 0:10:47.487 --> 0:10:49.727 sort of weird, but when you've got that many kids, 0:10:49.727 --> 0:10:51.527 you kind of think, well, maybe the parents won't be 0:10:51.567 --> 0:10:54.567 so like, they won't care as much because they've got 0:10:54.607 --> 0:10:56.087 so many, which. 0:10:55.887 --> 0:10:59.527 Is not the case at all. Control these backups. 0:10:59.567 --> 0:11:02.647 And I've got an only child, and I now know 0:11:02.727 --> 0:11:05.127 that the more you have, the more it grows, the 0:11:05.247 --> 0:11:09.007 more the concern grows. So Allison's illness really transformed our 0:11:09.047 --> 0:11:12.047 whole family. It brought them back, brought them, brought some 0:11:12.127 --> 0:11:14.807 of my sisters back to the family who had kind 0:11:14.807 --> 0:11:20.367 of tried to leave. I think it brought out a 0:11:20.447 --> 0:11:23.527 better side of both of my parents, who were pretty 0:11:24.367 --> 0:11:28.047 troubled people and were you know, throughout our lives. 0:11:28.087 --> 0:11:29.727 But you know, Dad stopped. 0:11:29.487 --> 0:11:32.767 Drinking for a long time until sort of the end 0:11:32.807 --> 0:11:35.647 of his life. And Mum, I mean, Mum kept gambling. 0:11:35.687 --> 0:11:39.687 But she she was just much nicer to Alison and 0:11:39.767 --> 0:11:42.447 I than she was to my older sisters. I mean, 0:11:42.447 --> 0:11:45.047 it's that's a relative to him, but yeah, she genuinely 0:11:45.127 --> 0:11:49.407 was because she really cared about about Alison, so and 0:11:49.447 --> 0:11:51.047 I could see that, whereas I don't know if my 0:11:51.087 --> 0:11:54.007 older sisters got to see that that's part of her 0:11:54.407 --> 0:11:55.727 the way that I did up close. 0:11:57.247 --> 0:12:01.247 So when you say that you know you're comfortable around 0:12:01.287 --> 0:12:05.207 death and the rituals around death and a good death, 0:12:05.247 --> 0:12:08.447 a good goodbye, that's exactly what most people are very 0:12:08.527 --> 0:12:11.567 uncomfortable about, right that. I mean for a lot of people, 0:12:11.607 --> 0:12:15.447 they will do almost anything to avoid talking about death, 0:12:16.007 --> 0:12:19.927 talking to someone who's experienced loss knowing how to behave 0:12:20.207 --> 0:12:22.967 around it. And you must, I guess, through your work 0:12:24.207 --> 0:12:26.967 come up against that a lot. And is there any 0:12:27.047 --> 0:12:29.487 kind of pattern that you see in people that you 0:12:29.567 --> 0:12:32.887 work with around death who are whether they're comfortable or 0:12:32.927 --> 0:12:34.927 not with it? I guess does it make a difference. 0:12:35.887 --> 0:12:37.327 So I'm going to have a think about that in 0:12:37.367 --> 0:12:40.167 terms of the people who themselves are dying versus the 0:12:40.167 --> 0:12:44.247 people around them. Yeah, and before death then obviously after death. 0:12:44.527 --> 0:12:47.487 And so that's if you have a terminal illness or 0:12:47.727 --> 0:12:49.247 you know, and it's like this. 0:12:49.127 --> 0:12:52.367 Is yeah, you know care, paliative care, that's right, end 0:12:52.407 --> 0:12:53.207 of life care. 0:12:53.047 --> 0:12:54.487 You're in that phase of your life. 0:12:54.487 --> 0:12:58.087 So you're switching from medical intervention to try and make 0:12:58.127 --> 0:13:01.287 you better, to medical intervention, to just try and lessen 0:13:01.327 --> 0:13:04.527 your pain, make you comfortable. So those people they want 0:13:04.527 --> 0:13:07.527 to get their house in order, they want to make generally, 0:13:07.607 --> 0:13:10.327 I mean it's not always at all, but generally, once 0:13:10.367 --> 0:13:13.527 they've made that transition to going, okay, I'm not fighting 0:13:14.487 --> 0:13:17.487 the cancer so much anymore as trying to make sure 0:13:17.527 --> 0:13:19.807 I have good quality of life for this last bit 0:13:19.847 --> 0:13:22.927 of my life, they're pretty prepared to tell you what 0:13:22.967 --> 0:13:26.087 they want, you know. So I've met some people in 0:13:26.127 --> 0:13:28.927 that context because they want to meet the person who 0:13:29.007 --> 0:13:30.367 might be their funeral celebrant. 0:13:32.127 --> 0:13:35.367 Yeah, in the same way you would meet a wedding somebody. Yeah. 0:13:35.407 --> 0:13:38.607 And I really do like being able to meet the 0:13:38.647 --> 0:13:41.207 person beforehand, because you don't want to get up and 0:13:41.207 --> 0:13:43.447 be like, oh, this person was and you've never even 0:13:43.527 --> 0:13:45.927 met them before. I always make the point at a 0:13:45.927 --> 0:13:48.607 funeral to say, like, I didn't know this person that well, 0:13:48.687 --> 0:13:50.687 So I'm going to leave all the deep, you know, 0:13:51.007 --> 0:13:53.127 meaty stories to you guys. 0:13:53.287 --> 0:13:54.807 But my job's just to facilitate. 0:13:54.887 --> 0:13:57.047 And generally what I say at a funeral is it's 0:13:57.127 --> 0:13:58.887 kind of what I've learned is that it's sort of 0:13:58.887 --> 0:14:01.087 my job to let you know that you have permission 0:14:01.647 --> 0:14:04.487 to say and feel all the things that you're feeling 0:14:04.527 --> 0:14:06.367 all of them, and do what you need to do. 0:14:06.647 --> 0:14:08.327 That's what I've realized over the years. 0:14:08.447 --> 0:14:11.007 But anyway, we were talking about people and their attitudes 0:14:11.127 --> 0:14:13.727 and their ability to talk about death. So people who 0:14:13.767 --> 0:14:17.767 know that they're dying are fairly practical in my experience, 0:14:18.607 --> 0:14:20.447 Like my mother in law died a few years ago, 0:14:20.727 --> 0:14:24.687 and she was very clear about what she wanted when 0:14:24.727 --> 0:14:27.447 we put together the slide show for her funeral. My 0:14:27.567 --> 0:14:30.767 husband had put it together and he had recorded her 0:14:30.807 --> 0:14:33.647 telling him what to put in it, and he put 0:14:33.687 --> 0:14:37.527 that over the top of the music, which was so 0:14:37.607 --> 0:14:39.447 it was great. She was like, you know, I don't 0:14:39.447 --> 0:14:41.127 want it to be too sad, so do this and 0:14:41.247 --> 0:14:43.687 do that, and we're all just you know, laugh crying 0:14:43.767 --> 0:14:46.967 and all that sort of thing the people around them. 0:14:47.167 --> 0:14:53.247 Some people, it varies, but some people don't want you 0:14:53.447 --> 0:14:55.567 to talk about it. They don't want their person to 0:14:55.607 --> 0:14:58.767 be talking about it, and that can be hard because 0:14:58.807 --> 0:15:01.327 if that person wants to talk about it and nobody 0:15:01.407 --> 0:15:03.847 around them will talk to them about it, you know, 0:15:04.167 --> 0:15:06.647 the last thing that they want in life is to 0:15:06.647 --> 0:15:09.607 be heard and saying this last thing with any of us. Yeah, 0:15:09.687 --> 0:15:11.407 it's the first and last thing we want is to 0:15:11.447 --> 0:15:14.487 be seen and heard. And if the people who love 0:15:14.567 --> 0:15:16.447 you keep telling you that you're going to be all right, 0:15:17.087 --> 0:15:19.007 you know, and they're doing it because they can't face 0:15:19.047 --> 0:15:21.287 the pain. So it's all understandable. 0:15:21.687 --> 0:15:25.407 But there'll be people listening to this who have suffered 0:15:25.447 --> 0:15:30.447 loss or are at the moment maybe caring for a 0:15:30.487 --> 0:15:33.287 parent who you know, may not have a lot of time, 0:15:33.447 --> 0:15:38.807 or you know, there's a sort of slow process. Does 0:15:38.847 --> 0:15:41.607 it make any I don't know quite what I'm asking here, 0:15:41.607 --> 0:15:43.487 but does it make any difference to the shock of 0:15:43.527 --> 0:15:47.407 the loss when it happens for the people around them? Well, 0:15:47.447 --> 0:15:53.327 if you know that it's been coming a long time. No, unfortunately, Sorry, no, 0:15:53.527 --> 0:15:56.887 I'm not not at all. I'm just sort of thinking, I. 0:15:56.887 --> 0:15:59.087 Mean, you know, yes and no, like you do know 0:15:59.167 --> 0:16:01.727 it's coming, so maybe it does. 0:16:01.847 --> 0:16:04.287 I don't know. I've had both. So that's the other 0:16:04.287 --> 0:16:05.167 reason I do this work. 0:16:05.167 --> 0:16:08.887 I've had a lot of deaths. My dad died suddenly 0:16:08.927 --> 0:16:10.967 when I was twenty. 0:16:10.647 --> 0:16:13.807 Three, and you found him. Yeah, yeah, it was. 0:16:13.807 --> 0:16:16.487 Christmas Eve and you had a heart attack in his sleep. 0:16:17.167 --> 0:16:20.887 So that was sudden, and that probably took me ten 0:16:20.967 --> 0:16:24.047 years to get over. I reckon, But there were other 0:16:24.087 --> 0:16:25.927 things that I had to deal with, you know, which 0:16:25.927 --> 0:16:30.647 I kind of talked about in theology with Allison and 0:16:30.847 --> 0:16:33.527 my mum who died just a few months ago, now 0:16:34.047 --> 0:16:37.847 like Alison was sick. So probably took me six to 0:16:37.887 --> 0:16:42.687 twelve months physically, because grief is a physical process as well, 0:16:43.047 --> 0:16:47.127 for the cells of my body to kind of imbibe 0:16:47.167 --> 0:16:49.487 the knowledge that this person was no longer around. 0:16:49.647 --> 0:16:52.687 Tell me a little bit about that, because that's what 0:16:52.767 --> 0:16:55.207 I mean. Obviously it's not my air of expertise, but 0:16:55.247 --> 0:17:00.607 it's yours. Grief isn't an emotion, right, It's something much more. 0:17:00.887 --> 0:17:03.127 It's a found in all consumed. 0:17:02.647 --> 0:17:06.007 Whole of body, whole of spirit experience. 0:17:06.487 --> 0:17:13.367 Yeah, because often people they want to know, like, they 0:17:13.527 --> 0:17:16.247 give themselves a hard time about I'm not over it. 0:17:16.647 --> 0:17:18.967 Why aren't I over it? I'm looking around and I'm 0:17:18.967 --> 0:17:22.047 seeing other people who've lost a parent or a sibling 0:17:22.167 --> 0:17:25.607 or something, and they're walking around looking normal, and I'm not. 0:17:25.967 --> 0:17:30.967 Like there is some reassurance or validation in understanding that 0:17:31.087 --> 0:17:33.167 grief is a whole body process, as you. 0:17:34.047 --> 0:17:38.327 Yeah, we're very like you know, we're kind of scientific culture, 0:17:38.487 --> 0:17:40.447 so we like to think, oh, there's science behind this. 0:17:40.607 --> 0:17:44.007 So if well there is, that's that's the comfort that 0:17:44.047 --> 0:17:47.847 I can offer that it is a physiological process. You know, 0:17:47.887 --> 0:17:50.207 when you lose someone, it's like a shock. It's a 0:17:50.207 --> 0:17:53.687 body shock and you go through shock. So if you 0:17:53.847 --> 0:17:56.367 just had a massive car accident, your body would go 0:17:56.407 --> 0:17:59.487 into shock, same kind of thing. When you lose a person. 0:18:00.207 --> 0:18:03.207 You know, there's neurological changes. That's why you get the 0:18:03.247 --> 0:18:06.327 fuzzy brain and you know you cannot concentrate for very 0:18:06.327 --> 0:18:08.647 long periods of time when someone's just died. Someone asked 0:18:08.647 --> 0:18:13.247 you a question, Oh, I don't know. Lots of fatigue, 0:18:13.287 --> 0:18:17.967 but insomnia, just you might be getting sick. When there 0:18:18.047 --> 0:18:20.407 is research that shows that people you know have lost 0:18:20.407 --> 0:18:25.847 a lifelong partner, there is a higher rate of death 0:18:25.887 --> 0:18:29.007 amongst the cohort in the year following the loss of 0:18:29.047 --> 0:18:31.327 their partner. Which is why you hear these beautiful stories 0:18:31.327 --> 0:18:34.087 of someone dying. You know, a month after their wife 0:18:34.167 --> 0:18:35.807 or their husband or a partner has died. 0:18:36.007 --> 0:18:38.167 People will say they died of a broken heart, and 0:18:38.287 --> 0:18:45.487 essentially they did. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, So is there 0:18:45.527 --> 0:18:48.327 anything you can do to help someone who's grieving. We 0:18:48.407 --> 0:18:51.407 know you can't get a shortcut, you can't solve anything. 0:18:51.727 --> 0:18:53.727 What are the practical things you can do that might 0:18:53.767 --> 0:18:59.287 actually help people in their darkest moment. I mean, I 0:18:59.327 --> 0:19:00.767 know we're jumping around a bit here, but I did 0:19:00.807 --> 0:19:04.967 want to ask you about partners because a conversation that 0:19:05.207 --> 0:19:08.287 I people I know have had who have been who 0:19:08.287 --> 0:19:11.847 have lost parents perhaps is that if a parent is 0:19:11.927 --> 0:19:14.727 part of a couple and the other person is still there, 0:19:15.247 --> 0:19:18.327 they are sort of the primary griever, if you like. 0:19:18.687 --> 0:19:21.967 Sometimes the child, the adult child is stepping in to 0:19:22.047 --> 0:19:25.287 try and look after that person, encourage them to process 0:19:25.327 --> 0:19:27.567 their grief in a certain way. But there might be 0:19:27.647 --> 0:19:30.407 like a generational divide there that means that the parent, 0:19:30.527 --> 0:19:33.527 the remaining parent, doesn't want to deal with it in 0:19:33.567 --> 0:19:35.847 the way that you're trying to pushing them to deal 0:19:35.847 --> 0:19:40.007 with it. You must see these kind of family dynamics 0:19:40.007 --> 0:19:45.167 in your work around a lot. Is there anything that 0:19:45.247 --> 0:19:49.607 works in like trying to respect how other people's grief 0:19:50.007 --> 0:19:50.887 needs to play out? 0:19:52.527 --> 0:19:54.927 Well, I think you just answered your own question, Holly. 0:19:55.127 --> 0:19:59.327 Just respecting the process and just trying to take care 0:19:59.367 --> 0:20:02.567 of when you're trying to take care of someone. So 0:20:03.087 --> 0:20:05.447 if that happens, Say so, after my dad died, there 0:20:05.527 --> 0:20:08.727 was my mum. You know that generally parents don't die 0:20:08.727 --> 0:20:11.007 at the same time and if they're still together, so 0:20:11.047 --> 0:20:14.927 one is the widow or the widower. Like what's playing 0:20:14.967 --> 0:20:18.287 out is again your thing with your mum, It's always 0:20:18.287 --> 0:20:20.567 the same, Like that dynamic will just play out in 0:20:20.607 --> 0:20:23.647 whatever context and whatever the thing is going on in life, 0:20:23.647 --> 0:20:26.007 and this is the loss of you know, your dad, 0:20:26.047 --> 0:20:28.567 her husband, the same thing will play out. So with 0:20:28.607 --> 0:20:32.407 me and my mum, it was I shifted. I was 0:20:32.447 --> 0:20:35.007 all about trying to make her and my sister Allison, 0:20:35.047 --> 0:20:38.807 who she was caring for, better in all aspects of 0:20:38.847 --> 0:20:41.687 the word, better quality of life, you know, being more social, 0:20:42.007 --> 0:20:44.927 gamble less, you know, get Alison out and doing things whatever. 0:20:44.967 --> 0:20:46.687 And I drew them up a budget and I was 0:20:46.727 --> 0:20:49.847 like called all these like associations or whatever, and just 0:20:49.887 --> 0:20:52.767 classic that's just what I've always done with both of 0:20:52.767 --> 0:20:53.367 those people. 0:20:53.407 --> 0:20:54.287 And she ignored all of. 0:20:54.207 --> 0:20:58.527 It, all of it, and obviously that made me mad. 0:20:57.647 --> 0:21:00.687 So you know that the same thing like kind of 0:21:00.767 --> 0:21:05.367 understanding that you know, the adult child, you're not suddenly 0:21:05.447 --> 0:21:08.007 wiser than your parent. You're just trying to do the 0:21:08.047 --> 0:21:10.607 same thing that you've probably all always tried to do, 0:21:10.687 --> 0:21:11.847 or I have tried to do for a long time, 0:21:11.887 --> 0:21:13.687 which is a certainself. 0:21:13.167 --> 0:21:15.007 And make and make them know that you know better 0:21:15.047 --> 0:21:17.647 than them. That is so true. I'm sure there are 0:21:17.687 --> 0:21:18.927 lots of people listening to this. There are lots of 0:21:18.927 --> 0:21:22.047 people around me who are going, but Dad just won't 0:21:22.087 --> 0:21:24.647 move into a home or whatever it might be like, 0:21:24.847 --> 0:21:27.767 or won't sell the house, or won't go out and 0:21:27.847 --> 0:21:30.087