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Speaker 2: via the link in the episode description.

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Speaker 1: Hello out louders, it's Holly wayIn right here.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: Look, many of you know that I host another podcast

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Speaker 1: on the Muma Mere network called mid and Today, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to share a particular conversation that is probably the

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Speaker 1: most meaningful that I had in all of twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: No matter our age or our live stage, this is

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Speaker 1: a topic that has either touched us or is going

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Speaker 1: to touch us, or that we're living with every day.

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Speaker 1: And it's grief, and this time can be especially difficult

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Speaker 1: for people who have lost someone or of facing losing someone.

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Speaker 1: If that's you, or if it speaks to you. You

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Speaker 1: are going to love this conversation that I had about

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Speaker 1: death and grief with Dr Jackie Bailey. She is someone

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Speaker 1: called a death walker. She is also a funeral celebrant.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know that I've ever had such a

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Speaker 1: beautiful and honest conversation about life and death as I

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Speaker 1: had with the amazing Dr Jackie Bailey. So please listen

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Speaker 1: to it. Sending massive love your way and I'll see

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Speaker 1: you on the end of this episode. No fancy words today,

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Speaker 1: no jokes, no flowery metaphors and tricky punctuation, no alliteration,

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Speaker 1: strategic repetition, no rightly tricks. Grief has no time for

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Speaker 1: my bullshit. Loss isn't interested in how clever your sentences

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Speaker 1: might be or how they sound read out loud. Midwomen

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Speaker 1: know that there isn't a damn thing that can step

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Speaker 1: in and tap dance away the empty middle of losing

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Speaker 1: someone you love. That it rearranges you inside and out,

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Speaker 1: opens up a space and floods it with missing and

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Speaker 1: with resentment or anger maybe and with longing. Grief comes

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Speaker 1: to everyone, some sooner than others, with brutal speed or

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Speaker 1: an agonizing crawl. The most extraordinary of ordinary, inevitable pains,

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Speaker 1: the one that can knock you, of course, and leave

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Speaker 1: you breathless and reeling, aching and empty. For years, I've

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Speaker 1: had the outrageous good fortune of still being able to

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Speaker 1: touch a screen and hear my mother complaining about something

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Speaker 1: my brother isn't doing, or to see my father's face

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Speaker 1: all too close as he tries to work out why

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Speaker 1: the image on the iPad is tipped on its side.

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Speaker 1: I know how precious that is for as long as

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Speaker 1: I get it, because I have sat with my beloved

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Speaker 1: and held him as his excellent mother left us. I

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Speaker 1: have missed an old friend's slow smile, knowing I'll never

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Speaker 1: hear him laugh again. I've seen the terrible gap left

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Speaker 1: by my teenage boyfriend. I've watched a wonderful man's daughter

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Speaker 1: grow up without him. I've mourned the loss of babies

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Speaker 1: I never got to hold. We've all felt just a

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Speaker 1: little of it, or much too much. But I know

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Speaker 1: my outrageous good fortune. Today. My children are safe on

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Speaker 1: their damn screens, and my brother, his teens, my friend, family,

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Speaker 1: and my partner in life are all still going about

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Speaker 1: their ordinary days. There I go, trying to pretty up

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Speaker 1: these words about the worst thing that can happen to us.

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Speaker 1: Midwomen lie in bed and count their people, silently tallying

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Speaker 1: their luck. We don't want to talk about it, but

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Speaker 1: if it hasn't already visited, grief is looming, and so

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Speaker 1: we care, and we nurture and soothe, and we hope

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Speaker 1: we can keep it at bay if we just don't

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Speaker 1: mention it. Today we're mentioning it because silence is lonely,

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Speaker 1: and grief is the price we pay for love. As

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Speaker 1: a wise woman said, life without loss is a life

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Speaker 1: without love, and mid women know that isn't worth the trade.

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Speaker 1: There's the solace in sharing always, and mid women know

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Speaker 1: that too. Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife,

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Speaker 1: mid family, mid identity crisis. And today we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the thing we're not allowed to talk about. And I

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Speaker 1: don't mean because someone will wag a finger at us

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Speaker 1: if we do. I mean because it goes to the

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Speaker 1: core of everything we're afraid of. Even if many of

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Speaker 1: the women listening to this today are living there. Right now,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about grief. If you're thinking that this episode

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Speaker 1: sounds too much, then for you, right now, perhaps you're

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Speaker 1: right but if you're thinking it sounds heavy and difficult

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Speaker 1: and depressing, then you should stay because it's actually anything

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Speaker 1: but thanks to our extraordinary guest, Dr Jackie Bailey is

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Speaker 1: a death walker. She walks with the dying and she

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Speaker 1: brings comfort ritual to their people. She's an interfaith minister

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Speaker 1: and a funeral celebrant, and she's a writer. I met

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Speaker 1: her at a regional book event last year, and after

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Speaker 1: she'd stood up and discussed her book The Eulogy, in

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Speaker 1: front of an audience on the panel, we were both

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Speaker 1: on Her book line snaked around the block with people

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Speaker 1: wanting to buy it. Why because of her own experience

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Speaker 1: of grief, having lived, as she's about to tell you,

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Speaker 1: in close proximity to death since she was seven, and

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Speaker 1: that's given her a particularly beautiful, simple, comforting but no

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Speaker 1: bullshit perspective on it. In this conversation, we talk about that,

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Speaker 1: and we talk about what to do if someone you

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Speaker 1: love is dying, and we talk about what to do

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Speaker 1: if that person is you, And we talk about the

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Speaker 1: kind of spiritual practices that actually soothe, and we talk

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Speaker 1: about how there are no shortcuts to getting over it,

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Speaker 1: and we talk about how to write a eulogy for

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Speaker 1: someone you love but maybe didn't even like very much.

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Speaker 1: It's a serious, important, sometimes funny conversation about something that

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Speaker 1: none of us want to talk about. Apart from Jackie.

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Speaker 1: You are an interfaith minister, a funeral celebrant, so what

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Speaker 1: we call funeral celebrate. But I've also seen you described

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Speaker 1: as a death walker. What is a death walker?

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Speaker 3: It's not a character from the Game of Strains like

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Speaker 3: first Up unfortunately. I mean, anyway, it depends on which

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Speaker 3: that's what sena farrago who's like a you know, guiding

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Speaker 3: light in the deathy kind of movement in Australian in

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Speaker 3: the world.

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Speaker 1: I have to just stop you there because I've heard

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Speaker 1: you on another podcast talk about deathy's. You were like

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Speaker 1: talking about your work and you know your research, and

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Speaker 1: you said this one's for the other Deathy's And I

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Speaker 1: was like, okay, step back, what's a deathy.

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Speaker 3: Or the people like me who are kind of obsessed

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Speaker 3: with that part of life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we did research it. Yeah, yeah, you.

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Speaker 3: Sort of your death eas That's where I'm most comfortable.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm far more comfortable officiating a funeral than

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Speaker 3: a wedding, for example. Yeah, it's just my comfortable space.

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Speaker 3: It's really intimate, meaningful, authentic, or a lot of stuff

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Speaker 3: is stripped away, maybe also because of them from a

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Speaker 3: big family, so I'm really used to negotiating the all

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Speaker 3: the issues that come up in that context. It's just

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Speaker 3: my I wouldn't say it's my happy place. It's not

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Speaker 3: my happy place. It's not happy, but it's my most comfortable.

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Speaker 1: You sort of study to be an inter faith minister,

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Speaker 1: don't you. Yeah, it's like you and you're ordained and everything,

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Speaker 1: but it's a non religious role, that's right. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I've seen you say that other people who you went

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Speaker 1: through that with they might do things like be prison

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Speaker 1: chaplains or like non religious pastors kind of is that right? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly right. But that you For you, it was

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Speaker 1: always about death, that's what I read you say. Why

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Speaker 1: do you think that? Is?

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Speaker 3: Basically because since I was seven, about seven years old,

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Speaker 3: my sister was dying and it took her thirty one

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Speaker 3: years to die, which was a long time to live

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Speaker 3: with that possibility. So I was obsessed with it from

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Speaker 3: a very young age, thinking about the meaning of life

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Speaker 3: and what happens after we die.

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Speaker 1: Can you give a little bit of context to that,

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Speaker 1: because I've read your beautiful book Eulogy, which is a

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Speaker 1: fictionalized version of this story. But for the people listening,

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Speaker 1: when you say your sister was dying from the age

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Speaker 1: of seven, what do you mean what happened?

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Speaker 3: So she was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor when

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Speaker 3: she was ten and I was seven, and they thought

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Speaker 3: she would only live for about a year, but she

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Speaker 3: lived for another thirty odd years, gradually deteriorating though, so

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Speaker 3: you know, physical and intellectual handicaps. And when she did

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Speaker 3: eventually die, by then she was in a group home

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Speaker 3: and she couldn't swallow or speak anymore. So it was

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Speaker 3: a long time. It was a long time of watching

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Speaker 3: her die, obviously not thinking the whole time about Like

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Speaker 3: I didn't think in those terms when I was with her,

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Speaker 3: But there's always part of you waiting for the phone

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Speaker 3: call in the middle of the night. So nowadays my

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Speaker 3: sister's died and both my parents have died, I don't

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Speaker 3: really have to have that feeling anymore.

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Speaker 1: I can turn my phone off. That must be a

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Speaker 1: strange shift, because for almost your whole life you.

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Speaker 3: Have I mean, I don't think you switch from one

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Speaker 3: to the other immediately either sort of like any kind

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Speaker 3: of I guess trauma that you're always attuned to it.

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Speaker 1: So do you think from seven year old you and

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Speaker 1: don't worry, I'm not going to try and be an

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Speaker 1: amateur psychologist. Was very far from my area of expertise.

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Speaker 1: But do you think that your need to like understand

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Speaker 1: get your hands around death almost is that where it

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Speaker 1: comes from? This is sort of thinking or being told

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Speaker 1: this is going to happen to your sister.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, definitely, because when you're that young as well.

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Speaker 3: I mean she and I were very close. I felt

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Speaker 3: like she was me and I was her. You know,

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Speaker 3: there's that boundary is pretty blurry with siblings who are

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Speaker 3: quite close to you.

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Speaker 1: Because you're from a big family family seven. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: you're the youngest. Yeah, I'm the youngest. So you had

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Speaker 1: a lot of like looking forward and up and trying

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Speaker 1: to understand what the hell's going on in this big,

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Speaker 1: chaotic family. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's just what you're used to. It's just

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Speaker 3: what you grow up with. But Alison was mine. Allison

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Speaker 3: was mine and I was hers. She kind of looked

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Speaker 3: out for me in that big, complicated, messy Catholic family household. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so when she got sick, it was really devastating for everybody.

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Speaker 3: Which is kind of funny too, because this may sound

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Speaker 3: sort of weird, but when you've got that many kids,

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Speaker 3: you kind of think, well, maybe the parents won't be

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Speaker 3: so like, they won't care as much because they've got

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Speaker 3: so many, which.

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Speaker 1: Is not the case at all. Control these backups.

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Speaker 3: And I've got an only child, and I now know

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Speaker 3: that the more you have, the more it grows, the

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Speaker 3: more the concern grows. So Allison's illness really transformed our

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Speaker 3: whole family. It brought them back, brought them, brought some

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Speaker 3: of my sisters back to the family who had kind

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Speaker 3: of tried to leave. I think it brought out a

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Speaker 3: better side of both of my parents, who were pretty

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Speaker 3: troubled people and were you know, throughout our lives.

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Speaker 1: But you know, Dad stopped.

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Speaker 3: Drinking for a long time until sort of the end

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Speaker 3: of his life. And Mum, I mean, Mum kept gambling.

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Speaker 3: But she she was just much nicer to Alison and

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Speaker 3: I than she was to my older sisters. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's that's a relative to him, but yeah, she genuinely

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Speaker 3: was because she really cared about about Alison, so and

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Speaker 3: I could see that, whereas I don't know if my

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Speaker 3: older sisters got to see that that's part of her

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Speaker 3: the way that I did up close.

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Speaker 1: So when you say that you know you're comfortable around

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Speaker 1: death and the rituals around death and a good death,

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Speaker 1: a good goodbye, that's exactly what most people are very

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable about, right that. I mean for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: they will do almost anything to avoid talking about death,

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Speaker 1: talking to someone who's experienced loss knowing how to behave

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Speaker 1: around it. And you must, I guess, through your work

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Speaker 1: come up against that a lot. And is there any

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Speaker 1: kind of pattern that you see in people that you

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Speaker 1: work with around death who are whether they're comfortable or

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Speaker 1: not with it? I guess does it make a difference.

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Speaker 3: So I'm going to have a think about that in

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Speaker 3: terms of the people who themselves are dying versus the

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Speaker 3: people around them. Yeah, and before death then obviously after death.

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Speaker 1: And so that's if you have a terminal illness or

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Speaker 1: you know, and it's like this.

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Speaker 3: Is yeah, you know care, paliative care, that's right, end

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Speaker 3: of life care.

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Speaker 1: You're in that phase of your life.

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Speaker 3: So you're switching from medical intervention to try and make

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Speaker 3: you better, to medical intervention, to just try and lessen

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Speaker 3: your pain, make you comfortable. So those people they want

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Speaker 3: to get their house in order, they want to make generally,

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Speaker 3: I mean it's not always at all, but generally, once

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Speaker 3: they've made that transition to going, okay, I'm not fighting

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Speaker 3: the cancer so much anymore as trying to make sure

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Speaker 3: I have good quality of life for this last bit

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Speaker 3: of my life, they're pretty prepared to tell you what

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Speaker 3: they want, you know. So I've met some people in

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Speaker 3: that context because they want to meet the person who

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Speaker 3: might be their funeral celebrant.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in the same way you would meet a wedding somebody. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I really do like being able to meet the

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Speaker 3: person beforehand, because you don't want to get up and

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Speaker 3: be like, oh, this person was and you've never even

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Speaker 3: met them before. I always make the point at a

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Speaker 3: funeral to say, like, I didn't know this person that well,

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Speaker 3: So I'm going to leave all the deep, you know,

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Speaker 3: meaty stories to you guys.

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Speaker 1: But my job's just to facilitate.

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Speaker 3: And generally what I say at a funeral is it's

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Speaker 3: kind of what I've learned is that it's sort of

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Speaker 3: my job to let you know that you have permission

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Speaker 3: to say and feel all the things that you're feeling

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Speaker 3: all of them, and do what you need to do.

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Speaker 1: That's what I've realized over the years.

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Speaker 3: But anyway, we were talking about people and their attitudes

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Speaker 3: and their ability to talk about death. So people who

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Speaker 3: know that they're dying are fairly practical in my experience,

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Speaker 3: Like my mother in law died a few years ago,

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Speaker 3: and she was very clear about what she wanted when

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Speaker 3: we put together the slide show for her funeral. My

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Speaker 3: husband had put it together and he had recorded her

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Speaker 3: telling him what to put in it, and he put

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Speaker 3: that over the top of the music, which was so

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Speaker 3: it was great. She was like, you know, I don't

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Speaker 3: want it to be too sad, so do this and

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Speaker 3: do that, and we're all just you know, laugh crying

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Speaker 3: and all that sort of thing the people around them.

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Speaker 3: Some people, it varies, but some people don't want you

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Speaker 3: to talk about it. They don't want their person to

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Speaker 3: be talking about it, and that can be hard because

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Speaker 3: if that person wants to talk about it and nobody

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Speaker 3: around them will talk to them about it, you know,

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Speaker 3: the last thing that they want in life is to

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Speaker 3: be heard and saying this last thing with any of us. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's the first and last thing we want is to

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Speaker 3: be seen and heard. And if the people who love

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Speaker 3: you keep telling you that you're going to be all right,

285
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Speaker 3: you know, and they're doing it because they can't face

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Speaker 3: the pain. So it's all understandable.

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Speaker 1: But there'll be people listening to this who have suffered

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Speaker 1: loss or are at the moment maybe caring for a

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Speaker 1: parent who you know, may not have a lot of time,

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Speaker 1: or you know, there's a sort of slow process. Does

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Speaker 1: it make any I don't know quite what I'm asking here,

292
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Speaker 1: but does it make any difference to the shock of

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Speaker 1: the loss when it happens for the people around them? Well,

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Speaker 1: if you know that it's been coming a long time. No, unfortunately, Sorry, no,

295
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Speaker 1: I'm not not at all. I'm just sort of thinking, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean, you know, yes and no, like you do know

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Speaker 3: it's coming, so maybe it does.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I've had both. So that's the other

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Speaker 1: reason I do this work.

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Speaker 3: I've had a lot of deaths. My dad died suddenly

301
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Speaker 3: when I was twenty.

302
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Speaker 1: Three, and you found him. Yeah, yeah, it was.

303
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Speaker 3: Christmas Eve and you had a heart attack in his sleep.

304
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Speaker 3: So that was sudden, and that probably took me ten

305
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Speaker 3: years to get over. I reckon, But there were other

306
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Speaker 3: things that I had to deal with, you know, which

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Speaker 3: I kind of talked about in theology with Allison and

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Speaker 3: my mum who died just a few months ago, now

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Speaker 3: like Alison was sick. So probably took me six to

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Speaker 3: twelve months physically, because grief is a physical process as well,

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Speaker 3: for the cells of my body to kind of imbibe

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Speaker 3: the knowledge that this person was no longer around.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about that, because that's what

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Speaker 1: I mean. Obviously it's not my air of expertise, but

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Speaker 1: it's yours. Grief isn't an emotion, right, It's something much more.

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Speaker 1: It's a found in all consumed.

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Speaker 3: Whole of body, whole of spirit experience.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because often people they want to know, like, they

319
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Speaker 1: give themselves a hard time about I'm not over it.

320
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Speaker 1: Why aren't I over it? I'm looking around and I'm

321
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Speaker 1: seeing other people who've lost a parent or a sibling

322
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Speaker 1: or something, and they're walking around looking normal, and I'm not.

323
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Speaker 1: Like there is some reassurance or validation in understanding that

324
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Speaker 1: grief is a whole body process, as you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're very like you know, we're kind of scientific culture,

326
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Speaker 3: so we like to think, oh, there's science behind this.

327
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Speaker 3: So if well there is, that's that's the comfort that

328
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Speaker 3: I can offer that it is a physiological process. You know,

329
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Speaker 3: when you lose someone, it's like a shock. It's a

330
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Speaker 3: body shock and you go through shock. So if you

331
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Speaker 3: just had a massive car accident, your body would go

332
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Speaker 3: into shock, same kind of thing. When you lose a person.

333
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Speaker 3: You know, there's neurological changes. That's why you get the

334
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Speaker 3: fuzzy brain and you know you cannot concentrate for very

335
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Speaker 3: long periods of time when someone's just died. Someone asked

336
00:18:08,647 --> 00:18:13,247
Speaker 3: you a question, Oh, I don't know. Lots of fatigue,

337
00:18:13,287 --> 00:18:17,967
Speaker 3: but insomnia, just you might be getting sick. When there

338
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Speaker 3: is research that shows that people you know have lost

339
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Speaker 3: a lifelong partner, there is a higher rate of death

340
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Speaker 3: amongst the cohort in the year following the loss of

341
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Speaker 3: their partner. Which is why you hear these beautiful stories

342
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Speaker 3: of someone dying. You know, a month after their wife

343
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Speaker 3: or their husband or a partner has died.

344
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Speaker 1: People will say they died of a broken heart, and

345
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Speaker 1: essentially they did. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, So is there

346
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Speaker 1: anything you can do to help someone who's grieving. We

347
00:18:48,407 --> 00:18:51,407
Speaker 1: know you can't get a shortcut, you can't solve anything.

348
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Speaker 1: What are the practical things you can do that might

349
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Speaker 1: actually help people in their darkest moment. I mean, I

350
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Speaker 1: know we're jumping around a bit here, but I did

351
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Speaker 1: want to ask you about partners because a conversation that

352
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Speaker 1: I people I know have had who have been who

353
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Speaker 1: have lost parents perhaps is that if a parent is

354
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Speaker 1: part of a couple and the other person is still there,

355
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Speaker 1: they are sort of the primary griever, if you like.

356
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Speaker 1: Sometimes the child, the adult child is stepping in to

357
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Speaker 1: try and look after that person, encourage them to process

358
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Speaker 1: their grief in a certain way. But there might be

359
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Speaker 1: like a generational divide there that means that the parent,

360
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Speaker 1: the remaining parent, doesn't want to deal with it in

361
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Speaker 1: the way that you're trying to pushing them to deal

362
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Speaker 1: with it. You must see these kind of family dynamics

363
00:19:40,007 --> 00:19:45,167
Speaker 1: in your work around a lot. Is there anything that

364
00:19:45,247 --> 00:19:49,607
Speaker 1: works in like trying to respect how other people's grief

365
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Speaker 1: needs to play out?

366
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Speaker 3: Well, I think you just answered your own question, Holly.

367
00:19:55,127 --> 00:19:59,327
Speaker 3: Just respecting the process and just trying to take care

368
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Speaker 3: of when you're trying to take care of someone. So

369
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Speaker 3: if that happens, Say so, after my dad died, there

370
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Speaker 3: was my mum. You know that generally parents don't die

371
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Speaker 3: at the same time and if they're still together, so

372
00:20:11,047 --> 00:20:14,927
Speaker 3: one is the widow or the widower. Like what's playing

373
00:20:14,967 --> 00:20:18,287
Speaker 3: out is again your thing with your mum, It's always

374
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Speaker 3: the same, Like that dynamic will just play out in

375
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Speaker 3: whatever context and whatever the thing is going on in life,

376
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Speaker 3: and this is the loss of you know, your dad,

377
00:20:26,047 --> 00:20:28,567
Speaker 3: her husband, the same thing will play out. So with

378
00:20:28,607 --> 00:20:32,407
Speaker 3: me and my mum, it was I shifted. I was

379
00:20:32,447 --> 00:20:35,007
Speaker 3: all about trying to make her and my sister Allison,

380
00:20:35,047 --> 00:20:38,807
Speaker 3: who she was caring for, better in all aspects of

381
00:20:38,847 --> 00:20:41,687
Speaker 3: the word, better quality of life, you know, being more social,

382
00:20:42,007 --> 00:20:44,927
Speaker 3: gamble less, you know, get Alison out and doing things whatever.

383
00:20:44,967 --> 00:20:46,687
Speaker 3: And I drew them up a budget and I was

384
00:20:46,727 --> 00:20:49,847
Speaker 3: like called all these like associations or whatever, and just

385
00:20:49,887 --> 00:20:52,767
Speaker 3: classic that's just what I've always done with both of

386
00:20:52,767 --> 00:20:53,367
Speaker 3: those people.

387
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Speaker 1: And she ignored all of.

388
00:20:54,207 --> 00:20:58,527
Speaker 3: It, all of it, and obviously that made me mad.

389
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Speaker 3: So you know that the same thing like kind of

390
00:21:00,767 --> 00:21:05,367
Speaker 3: understanding that you know, the adult child, you're not suddenly

391
00:21:05,447 --> 00:21:08,007
Speaker 3: wiser than your parent. You're just trying to do the

392
00:21:08,047 --> 00:21:10,607
Speaker 3: same thing that you've probably all always tried to do,

393
00:21:10,687 --> 00:21:11,847
Speaker 3: or I have tried to do for a long time,

394
00:21:11,887 --> 00:21:13,687
Speaker 3: which is a certainself.

395
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Speaker 1: And make and make them know that you know better

396
00:21:15,047 --> 00:21:17,647
Speaker 1: than them. That is so true. I'm sure there are

397
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Speaker 1: lots of people listening to this. There are lots of

398
00:21:18,927 --> 00:21:22,047
Speaker 1: people around me who are going, but Dad just won't

399
00:21:22,087 --> 00:21:24,647
Speaker 1: move into a home or whatever it might be like,

400
00:21:24,847 --> 00:21:27,767
Speaker 1: or won't sell the house, or won't go out and

401
00:21:27,847 --> 00:21:30,087
Speaker 1: join the bingo group or well, you know whatever, like,

402
00:21:30,127 --> 00:21:31,807
Speaker 1: and I know that he needs to do that. He

403
00:21:31,847 --> 00:21:35,007
Speaker 1: can't just sit home and be sad about mom. Yeah,

404
00:21:35,127 --> 00:21:37,207
Speaker 1: can he just sit home? Yeah, of course.

405
00:21:37,247 --> 00:21:40,447
Speaker 3: I mean as long as he's still eating and you know,

406
00:21:40,487 --> 00:21:43,927
Speaker 3: getting enough water and ideally enough exercise. Like that's I

407
00:21:43,927 --> 00:21:47,567
Speaker 3: guess what my default is and what my advice and

408
00:21:47,647 --> 00:21:50,287
Speaker 3: inverted commas is is just to address yourself to the

409
00:21:50,287 --> 00:21:53,527
Speaker 3: physical needs of a person, because you know, all the

410
00:21:53,567 --> 00:21:58,967
Speaker 3: social stuff and like, you just can't make someone even

411
00:21:59,007 --> 00:22:01,007
Speaker 3: when they're like top of their game.

412
00:22:01,767 --> 00:22:03,367
Speaker 1: You can't make them let alone when they're at.

413
00:22:03,247 --> 00:22:07,407
Speaker 3: The bottom of their game, you know, So you know,

414
00:22:07,927 --> 00:22:10,007
Speaker 3: liken't go around and mow the lawn, come in and

415
00:22:10,087 --> 00:22:14,407
Speaker 3: check that there's food and that it's being eaten, organized

416
00:22:14,447 --> 00:22:17,887
Speaker 3: meals on wheels. If you think it's necessary, just the

417
00:22:17,887 --> 00:22:20,447
Speaker 3: physical stuff, you can do that sort of level of

418
00:22:21,047 --> 00:22:24,887
Speaker 3: bossy bossy daughter stuff of like you know, you're coming

419
00:22:24,887 --> 00:22:27,247
Speaker 3: with me to the cardiologist on extent, you just show

420
00:22:27,287 --> 00:22:28,807
Speaker 3: up and you take them. You can do that sort

421
00:22:28,847 --> 00:22:32,127
Speaker 3: of stuff absolutely, and you should, and they'll they will

422
00:22:32,127 --> 00:22:34,887
Speaker 3: feel loved if it's I'm thinking now of dads. Dads

423
00:22:34,927 --> 00:22:37,687
Speaker 3: feel loved when you do things for them. Moms feel

424
00:22:37,687 --> 00:22:40,447
Speaker 3: loved when you do things for them, but when you

425
00:22:40,487 --> 00:22:43,447
Speaker 3: tell them and when you give them things. Gifts are

426
00:22:43,487 --> 00:22:46,087
Speaker 3: also really a good thing to do if you've got

427
00:22:46,087 --> 00:22:50,207
Speaker 3: a grieving friend or someone like that in your life. Yeah,

428
00:22:50,367 --> 00:22:52,767
Speaker 3: like food, dropping off the food, you know, you know,

429
00:22:52,807 --> 00:22:53,567
Speaker 3: all the stuff that you.

430
00:22:53,687 --> 00:22:55,247
Speaker 1: Do culturally anyway, yea.

431
00:22:56,407 --> 00:22:59,967
Speaker 3: The lasagna, the chocolate. I've got friends who every time

432
00:23:00,607 --> 00:23:03,807
Speaker 3: I lose someone, they send me like a huge crate

433
00:23:04,167 --> 00:23:07,967
Speaker 3: of Cadbury dairy milk.

434
00:23:08,687 --> 00:23:08,887
Speaker 1: Yeah.

435
00:23:08,887 --> 00:23:10,807
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, yeah, I've been grievy for six months.

436
00:23:10,887 --> 00:23:14,727
Speaker 1: You can see it right here. But you feel loved

437
00:23:14,727 --> 00:23:15,927
Speaker 1: when the dairy milk I do.

438
00:23:16,327 --> 00:23:18,207
Speaker 3: It turns up, and like if it didn't turn up,

439
00:23:18,247 --> 00:23:19,127
Speaker 3: I'd be kind of sad.

440
00:23:20,207 --> 00:23:22,527
Speaker 1: I wonder if because we're back to the feeling of

441
00:23:22,607 --> 00:23:26,567
Speaker 1: how everybody, well not everybody because there's deaths, but many

442
00:23:26,607 --> 00:23:29,807
Speaker 1: people are very uncomfortable with this. It's like people are

443
00:23:29,847 --> 00:23:33,407
Speaker 1: looking for a shortcut to get through it. And all

444
00:23:33,447 --> 00:23:36,047
Speaker 1: the chocolate and the lazannis are useful because people need

445
00:23:36,047 --> 00:23:38,847
Speaker 1: to feel loved and not forgotten, But there isn't a.

446
00:23:38,767 --> 00:23:42,327
Speaker 3: Shortcut, right ah Nah, there's no shortcut again. It's like

447
00:23:42,567 --> 00:23:45,767
Speaker 3: recovering from an illness. You know, people want a shortcut

448
00:23:45,807 --> 00:23:48,287
Speaker 3: there too. Generally, you know, people who are suffering from

449
00:23:48,647 --> 00:23:50,887
Speaker 3: long COVID and all that sort of thing. They can

450
00:23:50,927 --> 00:23:54,327
Speaker 3: tell you how there's no shortcuts. You just have to persist.

451
00:23:55,167 --> 00:23:57,327
Speaker 3: You have to make sure that you are getting more sleep,

452
00:23:57,367 --> 00:24:00,607
Speaker 3: and just acknowledge that you your body is not what

453
00:24:00,647 --> 00:24:03,247
Speaker 3: it was the day before your parent or whoever it

454
00:24:03,327 --> 00:24:06,287
Speaker 3: was died. It's different, so you have to kind of

455
00:24:06,327 --> 00:24:09,727
Speaker 3: like menopause or something, you have to behave differently. All

456
00:24:09,807 --> 00:24:13,127
Speaker 3: the stuff eat well, blah blah blah. I do think

457
00:24:13,167 --> 00:24:15,247
Speaker 3: you know how there's health ratings on foods. I feel

458
00:24:15,247 --> 00:24:17,887
Speaker 3: like there should be a mental health rating on like,

459
00:24:18,167 --> 00:24:20,447
Speaker 3: chocolate should definitely have a five star.

460
00:24:20,487 --> 00:24:21,527
Speaker 1: Mental health rating.

461
00:24:21,727 --> 00:24:24,527
Speaker 3: In my view, it is literally the only thing for

462
00:24:24,567 --> 00:24:28,207
Speaker 3: me anyway that can change my mood from one moment

463
00:24:28,247 --> 00:24:31,447
Speaker 3: to another. I mean, obviously, yeah, I don't drink and

464
00:24:31,807 --> 00:24:34,207
Speaker 3: take drugs. I'm a forty seven year old mother.

465
00:24:34,807 --> 00:24:37,047
Speaker 1: Very responsible, but chocolate can.

466
00:24:37,327 --> 00:24:39,647
Speaker 3: So just make sure you've got to stash. Because if

467
00:24:39,647 --> 00:24:42,167
Speaker 3: you're really low and you just need a bit of

468
00:24:42,207 --> 00:24:44,727
Speaker 3: a shift, get up and move to a different room.

469
00:24:44,847 --> 00:24:46,167
Speaker 1: I'm not saying you have to go out.

470
00:24:46,047 --> 00:24:51,807
Speaker 3: For a run, because no, my knees wouldn't appreciate that. Literally,

471
00:24:51,927 --> 00:24:55,927
Speaker 3: just move from the one seat to another, and that

472
00:24:56,247 --> 00:25:00,087
Speaker 3: moves yoursells. That changes your physical kind of being and

473
00:25:00,207 --> 00:25:02,807
Speaker 3: shifts things in your body because it's all happening in

474
00:25:02,847 --> 00:25:05,167
Speaker 3: your body. It's like any kind of PTSD. You've got

475
00:25:05,247 --> 00:25:08,647
Speaker 3: to know that it's happening and do something physical to

476
00:25:09,287 --> 00:25:10,047
Speaker 3: shift the mood.

477
00:25:11,287 --> 00:25:13,487
Speaker 1: I was interested that you use the language when you

478
00:25:13,527 --> 00:25:15,847
Speaker 1: talked about your father's loss. Then it took me ten

479
00:25:15,927 --> 00:25:18,527
Speaker 1: years to get over it. I don't know if you

480
00:25:18,567 --> 00:25:23,447
Speaker 1: did say get over it, probably did. But I've also

481
00:25:23,527 --> 00:25:26,687
Speaker 1: heard you say that your relationship with somebody doesn't end

482
00:25:27,167 --> 00:25:31,007
Speaker 1: because they're gone, which I'd love to hear you talk

483
00:25:31,007 --> 00:25:34,327
Speaker 1: about a bit. But also, what does get over it

484
00:25:34,367 --> 00:25:34,887
Speaker 1: look like?

485
00:25:35,047 --> 00:25:38,287
Speaker 3: Do you think, yes, thank you for picking me up

486
00:25:38,327 --> 00:25:41,127
Speaker 3: on that, because you don't get over someone. You never

487
00:25:41,167 --> 00:25:44,367
Speaker 3: get over losing someone. But it's more like the Eastern

488
00:25:44,407 --> 00:25:48,327
Speaker 3: European approach of you know, the grief or the loss

489
00:25:48,367 --> 00:25:50,327
Speaker 3: just becomes part of you and you just know how

490
00:25:50,367 --> 00:25:53,447
Speaker 3: to live with it. So when I'm thinking of my dad,

491
00:25:53,727 --> 00:25:56,327
Speaker 3: I didn't get over it so much as integrated. You

492
00:25:56,447 --> 00:26:00,887
Speaker 3: integrate the knowledge and the fallout from it. So, you know,

493
00:26:00,927 --> 00:26:03,327
Speaker 3: with my dad, it was complicated because we had, you know,

494
00:26:03,567 --> 00:26:05,607
Speaker 3: stuff that we hadn't dealt with while he was alive.

495
00:26:06,127 --> 00:26:08,247
Speaker 3: And that's that was hard losing when you lose someone

496
00:26:08,287 --> 00:26:11,607
Speaker 3: when you're you're fairly immature. Because that was twenty three,

497
00:26:11,687 --> 00:26:14,087
Speaker 3: but I was still wasn't very mature, so we hadn't

498
00:26:14,087 --> 00:26:16,167
Speaker 3: got to that place where we could just kind of

499
00:26:16,247 --> 00:26:19,127
Speaker 3: chat and respect each other. I don't know, maybe you

500
00:26:19,167 --> 00:26:21,047
Speaker 3: never maybe we never would have. I don't know, but

501
00:26:21,127 --> 00:26:23,967
Speaker 3: I feel like as I got older, we would have

502
00:26:23,967 --> 00:26:26,647
Speaker 3: turned a corner, but we hadn't. So I kind of

503
00:26:27,047 --> 00:26:29,607
Speaker 3: in my relationship with my dad, even though he had died.

504
00:26:29,647 --> 00:26:31,287
Speaker 1: I still, I kind of had to work through all

505
00:26:31,327 --> 00:26:33,087
Speaker 1: of that still, which is.

506
00:26:33,007 --> 00:26:36,247
Speaker 3: So annoying because you think, if they've died, like, surely

507
00:26:37,367 --> 00:26:38,047
Speaker 3: can we draw a.

508
00:26:38,007 --> 00:26:43,967
Speaker 1: Line under that, you know, in that relationship. No, I'm

509
00:26:44,007 --> 00:26:47,807
Speaker 1: sure there are people who one of the in a way.

510
00:26:47,847 --> 00:26:51,807
Speaker 1: Often when we lose someone, they have to then be

511
00:26:52,207 --> 00:26:54,927
Speaker 1: considered to be an angel and a perfect person. Right. Yeah,

512
00:26:55,367 --> 00:26:58,047
Speaker 1: that's many people if they're losing who will have lost

513
00:26:58,087 --> 00:27:01,087
Speaker 1: family members, whether it's a parent or anyone who was

514
00:27:01,127 --> 00:27:03,767
Speaker 1: not a perfect angel, who their relationship may have been.

515
00:27:03,807 --> 00:27:07,167
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's such an overused euphemism. But complicated

516
00:27:08,967 --> 00:27:12,447
Speaker 1: that can make things even more complicated in grief, right,

517
00:27:12,447 --> 00:27:15,087
Speaker 1: because there's guilt that comes along with that. Why do

518
00:27:15,167 --> 00:27:19,367
Speaker 1: you think we need to sort of venerate people who

519
00:27:19,367 --> 00:27:21,527
Speaker 1: are got Like, is it okay to speak ill of

520
00:27:21,527 --> 00:27:21,887
Speaker 1: the dead?

521
00:27:22,087 --> 00:27:24,847
Speaker 3: Of course, of course it is. Of course it's okay

522
00:27:24,847 --> 00:27:26,687
Speaker 3: to speak ill of the dead. But I guess it's

523
00:27:26,767 --> 00:27:30,167
Speaker 3: like it's a one sided conversation though, so they don't

524
00:27:30,207 --> 00:27:31,647
Speaker 3: have a right of reply anymore.

525
00:27:31,687 --> 00:27:32,447
Speaker 1: So. I don't know.

526
00:27:32,487 --> 00:27:35,167
Speaker 3: I feel like there's part of us that a sense

527
00:27:35,167 --> 00:27:37,767
Speaker 3: of fairness kicks in. It's like well, I can't really,

528
00:27:38,367 --> 00:27:39,527
Speaker 3: you know, say that anymore.

529
00:27:39,647 --> 00:27:40,327
Speaker 1: It's also.

530
00:27:41,767 --> 00:27:47,087
Speaker 3: You can't resolve it with them anymore, so saying it

531
00:27:46,567 --> 00:27:52,287
Speaker 3: is just feels like leaving them, like opening, like you've

532
00:27:52,327 --> 00:27:54,367
Speaker 3: got an open wound which is your grief and now

533
00:27:54,407 --> 00:27:57,767
Speaker 3: you're just sticking fingers in it rather than like covering

534
00:27:57,807 --> 00:28:01,247
Speaker 3: it with savlon and making it feel better. So yeah,

535
00:28:01,327 --> 00:28:06,527
Speaker 3: that tendency to turn someone into a saint, definitely. I've

536
00:28:06,567 --> 00:28:09,927
Speaker 3: seen it at funeral after funeral, and I've also seen

537
00:28:10,127 --> 00:28:13,167
Speaker 3: people get annoyed at that funeral after funeral it's like, well,

538
00:28:13,407 --> 00:28:14,847
Speaker 3: you know, he wasn't a saint, so why are we

539
00:28:14,887 --> 00:28:17,087
Speaker 3: all talking about him like he was a saint? So

540
00:28:17,127 --> 00:28:20,447
Speaker 3: people appreciate a little like some truth bombs as well,

541
00:28:20,487 --> 00:28:23,247
Speaker 3: to mix it up. At my mum's funeral a few

542
00:28:23,247 --> 00:28:27,167
Speaker 3: months ago, my brother and I delivered the eulogies, and yeah,

543
00:28:27,207 --> 00:28:31,247
Speaker 3: we both acknowledged how hard things had been, how complicated

544
00:28:31,287 --> 00:28:34,047
Speaker 3: it had been, and how she had been an angry mother,

545
00:28:34,727 --> 00:28:37,487
Speaker 3: but we also talked about the times where we realized

546
00:28:37,487 --> 00:28:40,527
Speaker 3: that she maybe did love us. I was lucky with

547
00:28:40,567 --> 00:28:42,887
Speaker 3: my mum because she was eighty eight when she died,

548
00:28:43,487 --> 00:28:46,847
Speaker 3: and she had dementia but she was still at a

549
00:28:46,847 --> 00:28:50,687
Speaker 3: good point in the dementia journey, where journey where she

550
00:28:50,687 --> 00:28:54,007
Speaker 3: could still swallow and eat and talk and walk around,

551
00:28:54,047 --> 00:28:55,687
Speaker 3: and she still knew who we all were, and she

552
00:28:55,807 --> 00:28:58,767
Speaker 3: was really happy, to the point where I went to

553
00:28:58,767 --> 00:29:01,087
Speaker 3: see her before she died, a couple months before she died,

554
00:29:01,167 --> 00:29:03,207
Speaker 3: and I was like, I could actually come back and

555
00:29:03,207 --> 00:29:05,567
Speaker 3: see her more often, because normally it was such a

556
00:29:05,647 --> 00:29:06,887
Speaker 3: chore to go and see my mother.

557
00:29:07,207 --> 00:29:09,807
Speaker 1: It's like that was actually quite nice, you know.

558
00:29:09,847 --> 00:29:13,607
Speaker 3: And then she died, but it was good because it

559
00:29:13,727 --> 00:29:15,527
Speaker 3: was like there was a part of her that could

560
00:29:15,607 --> 00:29:20,687
Speaker 3: say the things that she'd never allowed herself to say

561
00:29:21,007 --> 00:29:24,607
Speaker 3: for whatever read her own trauma reasons, probably, so I

562
00:29:24,647 --> 00:29:26,407
Speaker 3: was lucky that I got that with her, and it

563
00:29:26,447 --> 00:29:30,527
Speaker 3: meant that I could say that honestly at her funeral.

564
00:29:31,247 --> 00:29:34,207
Speaker 3: And there is like this, there's this Hawaiian practice which

565
00:29:34,247 --> 00:29:37,567
Speaker 3: is where they say four things to their person.

566
00:29:37,647 --> 00:29:38,567
Speaker 1: I add one or two.

567
00:29:39,127 --> 00:29:42,967
Speaker 3: So I love you, I'm sorry, I forgive you, thank you,

568
00:29:43,167 --> 00:29:47,567
Speaker 3: and goodbye. That's what I always recommend saying, only if

569
00:29:47,607 --> 00:29:50,527
Speaker 3: you can mean it genuinely, and you can say it

570
00:29:50,527 --> 00:29:53,807
Speaker 3: at any point before they die, after they die. I

571
00:29:53,887 --> 00:29:56,367
Speaker 3: said it to my mum's body because I didn't make

572
00:29:56,407 --> 00:29:58,007
Speaker 3: it there in time, and I said it to her

573
00:29:58,047 --> 00:30:01,327
Speaker 3: casket as well. That is a good thing about her funeral.

574
00:30:01,447 --> 00:30:04,367
Speaker 3: So having my mum's funeral was kind of good because

575
00:30:04,407 --> 00:30:07,527
Speaker 3: it reminded me of why I do this work. I mean,

576
00:30:07,527 --> 00:30:11,407
Speaker 3: thanks mam. But you know, having the casket there and

577
00:30:12,167 --> 00:30:16,087
Speaker 3: watching it leave in the hearse the physical again, because

578
00:30:16,487 --> 00:30:19,327
Speaker 3: loss is has to be known in the body. So

579
00:30:19,407 --> 00:30:22,807
Speaker 3: because you can physically touch someone or their casket or

580
00:30:22,807 --> 00:30:26,007
Speaker 3: their ashes or their pluck or whatever, but physically touch something,

581
00:30:26,367 --> 00:30:30,967
Speaker 3: the body starts to know what's happened. There's that trauma guy.

582
00:30:31,647 --> 00:30:33,727
Speaker 3: He wrote the book The Body Keeps the Score. Yes,

583
00:30:33,807 --> 00:30:37,287
Speaker 3: that trauma I can't remember his name, but Besilvandercock, you know,

584
00:30:37,327 --> 00:30:39,207
Speaker 3: well he's like the Body keeps the Score is the

585
00:30:39,247 --> 00:30:40,807
Speaker 3: name of his book about trauma.

586
00:30:40,927 --> 00:30:42,807
Speaker 1: It's the same for healing.

587
00:30:43,007 --> 00:30:45,567
Speaker 3: The body holds them to the trauma, but it also

588
00:30:45,687 --> 00:30:48,367
Speaker 3: can physically it holds onto the healing too.

589
00:30:48,447 --> 00:30:50,847
Speaker 1: I think so a bit of both. I want to

590
00:30:50,847 --> 00:30:52,847
Speaker 1: talk about funerals quickly. I want to talk about a

591
00:30:52,887 --> 00:30:56,007
Speaker 1: million things. But because obviously funerals is something that you

592
00:30:57,647 --> 00:31:00,287
Speaker 1: that's your job to a point. I've read that you

593
00:31:00,327 --> 00:31:02,007
Speaker 1: said that one of the reasons you wanted to do

594
00:31:02,047 --> 00:31:03,527
Speaker 1: it is that you wanted to give others what my

595
00:31:03,607 --> 00:31:07,527
Speaker 1: sister's funeral had given me, a clean wound ready for healing.

596
00:31:07,607 --> 00:31:10,607
Speaker 1: Now you use this metaphor before, it's really I've never

597
00:31:10,647 --> 00:31:13,847
Speaker 1: heard a ceremony of death described like that, and yet

598
00:31:14,367 --> 00:31:19,087
Speaker 1: it's so perfect that description. What do you mean by that?

599
00:31:19,647 --> 00:31:21,927
Speaker 1: A clean wound? So this occurred to me.

600
00:31:22,127 --> 00:31:25,167
Speaker 3: So when my dad died, we had his funeral, and

601
00:31:25,287 --> 00:31:28,327
Speaker 3: the wound didn't feel clean to me. It was you know,

602
00:31:28,407 --> 00:31:31,047
Speaker 3: there was a lot of shock around his sudden heart

603
00:31:31,047 --> 00:31:35,007
Speaker 3: attack kind of thing. So we were all like running around,

604
00:31:35,127 --> 00:31:39,047
Speaker 3: you know, headless chooks. And it was perfectly respectable funeral,

605
00:31:39,607 --> 00:31:41,607
Speaker 3: but it took me a long time to deal with

606
00:31:41,647 --> 00:31:44,567
Speaker 3: all of the fallout from his life and death. Then

607
00:31:44,607 --> 00:31:47,487
Speaker 3: with Alison, we knew she was going to die eventually,

608
00:31:47,527 --> 00:31:49,927
Speaker 3: you know, she'd been sick for so long so and

609
00:31:49,967 --> 00:31:53,207
Speaker 3: we had warning she was impalliative care for a few

610
00:31:53,247 --> 00:31:56,527
Speaker 3: days before she actually died. We all came together and

611
00:31:56,607 --> 00:31:59,007
Speaker 3: put together this beautiful ceremony that I think she would

612
00:31:59,007 --> 00:31:59,727
Speaker 3: have really liked.

613
00:32:00,327 --> 00:32:01,007
Speaker 1: We saw it through.

614
00:32:01,047 --> 00:32:03,487
Speaker 3: We did this beautiful thing for her and for me

615
00:32:03,807 --> 00:32:08,967
Speaker 3: that felt clean. I'm sad, but I'm not infected by

616
00:32:10,687 --> 00:32:13,767
Speaker 3: her death by the grief virus or something. So that's

617
00:32:13,807 --> 00:32:15,727
Speaker 3: what it felt like for me. And it was it

618
00:32:15,807 --> 00:32:18,607
Speaker 3: was her funeral that made me want to start doing funerals.

619
00:32:18,847 --> 00:32:21,007
Speaker 1: And now that you do, and as I understand it,

620
00:32:21,087 --> 00:32:24,487
Speaker 1: you as an interfaith minister, you do all kinds of

621
00:32:24,527 --> 00:32:28,687
Speaker 1: funerals for people of different cultural backgrounds, different socioeconomic backgrounds,

622
00:32:28,767 --> 00:32:32,287
Speaker 1: all the things. Is there something that makes the funeral

623
00:32:32,327 --> 00:32:36,607
Speaker 1: good as opposed to because funerals can also be very stressful.

624
00:32:36,607 --> 00:32:38,927
Speaker 1: There can be arguments about where it should be and

625
00:32:38,967 --> 00:32:42,207
Speaker 1: where the weight should be, and and like families can

626
00:32:43,047 --> 00:32:44,927
Speaker 1: in the same way that families can find all kinds

627
00:32:44,967 --> 00:32:48,647
Speaker 1: of things to argue about. What makes a good funeral

628
00:32:49,127 --> 00:32:52,607
Speaker 1: just honesty normally just honesty.

629
00:32:53,007 --> 00:32:56,927
Speaker 3: And that includes like the good and the bad, finding

630
00:32:56,927 --> 00:32:59,007
Speaker 3: a way to talk about the bad site that still

631
00:32:59,047 --> 00:33:02,967
Speaker 3: feels honoring, like you're honoring your person. Yeah, I mean,

632
00:33:03,007 --> 00:33:07,087
Speaker 3: your families do fight. It's kind of inevitable. Tender Funerals,

633
00:33:07,127 --> 00:33:09,767
Speaker 3: which is the not for profit funeral home, there was

634
00:33:09,807 --> 00:33:13,407
Speaker 3: one time when they had to do two funerals for

635
00:33:13,487 --> 00:33:15,487
Speaker 3: someone because and I'm not sure if they've had to

636
00:33:15,527 --> 00:33:18,207
Speaker 3: do that more than once, but probably because that people

637
00:33:18,247 --> 00:33:22,367
Speaker 3: can be very fractured and death brings it all out. Yeah,

638
00:33:22,407 --> 00:33:24,647
Speaker 3: so that was the other good thing about my sister Allison.

639
00:33:24,687 --> 00:33:28,047
Speaker 3: There was nothing to fight about. Everyone loved her, so

640
00:33:28,087 --> 00:33:29,447
Speaker 3: she made it easier for us.

641
00:33:29,807 --> 00:33:34,567
Speaker 1: Obviously, you wrote your The eulogy is an auto fiction book, right,

642
00:33:34,647 --> 00:33:37,887
Speaker 1: So it's your family story but fictionalized. It's called the

643
00:33:37,887 --> 00:33:41,167
Speaker 1: eulogy because your framework for it is like, the main

644
00:33:41,287 --> 00:33:44,727
Speaker 1: character has to write a eulogy for her sister, and

645
00:33:45,487 --> 00:33:49,287
Speaker 1: so like you must be an absolute expert in how

646
00:33:49,327 --> 00:33:52,327
Speaker 1: to write eulogy. And the thing is is that for

647
00:33:52,407 --> 00:33:55,167
Speaker 1: a lot of people you know, who may be suffering

648
00:33:55,207 --> 00:33:58,327
Speaker 1: the loss of it becomes an extra stress, Like how

649
00:33:58,367 --> 00:34:00,967
Speaker 1: do I say the perfect thing? I don't like public speaking.

650
00:34:01,047 --> 00:34:03,087
Speaker 1: I'm really afraid. And what if I you know, they've

651
00:34:03,127 --> 00:34:05,047
Speaker 1: been asked to do it. My brother's making me do it.

652
00:34:04,887 --> 00:34:09,207
Speaker 1: What does make a good eulogy? What makes a good eulogy?

653
00:34:09,447 --> 00:34:14,167
Speaker 3: So I do have it's pretty basic advice, but five

654
00:34:14,207 --> 00:34:19,487
Speaker 3: minutes short makes it a good eulogy? Step one, Step two.

655
00:34:19,687 --> 00:34:21,247
Speaker 3: I do think it's good to give a bit of

656
00:34:21,247 --> 00:34:24,007
Speaker 3: a chronology of a life. It's interesting when you meet

657
00:34:24,007 --> 00:34:27,207
Speaker 3: with a family to discuss the funeral, you're one of

658
00:34:27,247 --> 00:34:29,647
Speaker 3: the first people they've spoken to about their person in

659
00:34:29,687 --> 00:34:33,327
Speaker 3: the past tense, so they're starting to narrate their person.

660
00:34:33,367 --> 00:34:36,087
Speaker 3: They're starting to take their memories and their thoughts about

661
00:34:36,087 --> 00:34:40,407
Speaker 3: that person, and they're not like in live play anymore.

662
00:34:40,087 --> 00:34:43,687
Speaker 3: They're changing the verbs as they speak, you know, And

663
00:34:43,727 --> 00:34:46,247
Speaker 3: that's happening in their brains and you know, in their

664
00:34:46,287 --> 00:34:48,767
Speaker 3: hearts as well, which is why it's really important to

665
00:34:48,807 --> 00:34:52,047
Speaker 3: talk about the person having died, not having passed or anything.

666
00:34:52,047 --> 00:34:55,127
Speaker 3: When for me, as a funeral person, going in and saying,

667
00:34:55,167 --> 00:34:57,687
Speaker 3: you know, tell me about their death, how that happened.

668
00:34:58,007 --> 00:34:58,367
Speaker 1: Anyway.

669
00:34:58,447 --> 00:35:02,567
Speaker 3: So the eulogy, the chronology, some personal stories that you

670
00:35:02,647 --> 00:35:06,087
Speaker 3: might want to share, and the very end, I would

671
00:35:06,127 --> 00:35:10,007
Speaker 3: always recommend addressing the person, you know, speak to them

672
00:35:10,367 --> 00:35:11,167
Speaker 3: the last lines.

673
00:35:11,567 --> 00:35:13,127
Speaker 1: So that's it.

674
00:35:13,247 --> 00:35:16,207
Speaker 3: That's a good eulogy in a nutshell, that's very.

675
00:35:16,087 --> 00:35:21,047
Speaker 1: Useful working with all different cultures. I suppose in saying goodbye,

676
00:35:21,487 --> 00:35:24,487
Speaker 1: are there cultures that do death better than others? Like

677
00:35:24,567 --> 00:35:27,687
Speaker 1: every other culture. That's kind of what I was getting,

678
00:35:28,327 --> 00:35:30,167
Speaker 1: apart from uptight Western culture.

679
00:35:30,207 --> 00:35:33,207
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know we're doing We're getting better. We're definitely

680
00:35:33,207 --> 00:35:35,727
Speaker 3: getting better here with all the sort of the deathy movement,

681
00:35:35,807 --> 00:35:39,167
Speaker 3: you know, the grassroots making demands. I think it's also

682
00:35:39,327 --> 00:35:43,967
Speaker 3: this generation Gen X and maybe the Boomers as well,

683
00:35:44,367 --> 00:35:45,807
Speaker 3: more prepared to say, well.

684
00:35:46,007 --> 00:35:47,247
Speaker 1: That's not how I want to do things.

685
00:35:47,327 --> 00:35:48,607
Speaker 3: Is how I want to do things, you know, and

686
00:35:48,727 --> 00:35:50,767
Speaker 3: doing things which are more suited to their personality.

687
00:35:51,047 --> 00:35:53,167
Speaker 1: So you know, not going.

688
00:35:52,967 --> 00:35:55,847
Speaker 3: To a church if you weren't religious, and going outdoors

689
00:35:55,847 --> 00:35:57,887
Speaker 3: if you love the outdoors, and just.

690
00:35:57,847 --> 00:35:58,807
Speaker 1: All that sort of stuff.

691
00:35:59,007 --> 00:36:02,007
Speaker 3: But what other cultures do, like for example, that kin

692
00:36:02,087 --> 00:36:06,087
Speaker 3: do rights. I did an interfaith process with a Hindu

693
00:36:06,767 --> 00:36:10,887
Speaker 3: family once, so the dad had dined but he you.

694
00:36:10,887 --> 00:36:11,847
Speaker 1: Don't needto the details.

695
00:36:11,847 --> 00:36:14,847
Speaker 3: But what that culture and what other cultures do is

696
00:36:14,927 --> 00:36:18,327
Speaker 3: they give it time. We moved his body back to

697
00:36:18,367 --> 00:36:21,247
Speaker 3: the house, for example, back home and had the body

698
00:36:21,247 --> 00:36:25,087
Speaker 3: for a period of time, and you know, every people

699
00:36:25,087 --> 00:36:28,887
Speaker 3: spent time with the body. That what we tend to

700
00:36:28,887 --> 00:36:31,687
Speaker 3: do in the West is rush, you know. And when

701
00:36:31,727 --> 00:36:33,327
Speaker 3: I say rush, I don't just mean oh, let's have

702
00:36:33,327 --> 00:36:36,527
Speaker 3: the funeral next week, although there is that, it'd be

703
00:36:36,607 --> 00:36:38,327
Speaker 3: nice to push that out a little, give people a

704
00:36:38,327 --> 00:36:40,367
Speaker 3: bit of time, but also just being with the body.

705
00:36:41,127 --> 00:36:43,567
Speaker 3: We don't get much time with the body in the West,

706
00:36:43,807 --> 00:36:47,327
Speaker 3: and that I think really does affect how well you

707
00:36:47,407 --> 00:36:49,847
Speaker 3: can and how long it takes you to absorb the information.

708
00:36:50,087 --> 00:36:52,767
Speaker 3: So I do think it's like a cellular transfer of knowledge.

709
00:36:53,167 --> 00:36:56,127
Speaker 3: So if you get the chance and you're okay with

710
00:36:56,287 --> 00:36:59,167
Speaker 3: sitting with the person's body for even just for like

711
00:36:59,247 --> 00:37:02,247
Speaker 3: half an hour round hour, I do think it makes

712
00:37:02,247 --> 00:37:02,967
Speaker 3: a big difference.

713
00:37:03,007 --> 00:37:05,487
Speaker 1: But yeah, other cultures let you and not just let.

714
00:37:05,327 --> 00:37:08,767
Speaker 3: You, but they kind of require you to do that

715
00:37:09,327 --> 00:37:11,447
Speaker 3: and to do sort of physical things like.

716
00:37:11,607 --> 00:37:13,527
Speaker 1: Wash the body, wrap the body.

717
00:37:14,047 --> 00:37:16,327
Speaker 3: In the Hindu tradition, you know, you walk around the body,

718
00:37:16,407 --> 00:37:19,887
Speaker 3: you gal in the body in certain ways, all of

719
00:37:19,927 --> 00:37:20,727
Speaker 3: those things.

720
00:37:21,327 --> 00:37:22,767
Speaker 1: It's so sensible.

721
00:37:23,887 --> 00:37:28,487
Speaker 3: To turn that process of letting go or letting that

722
00:37:28,487 --> 00:37:31,567
Speaker 3: person move on on their path, and it's a physical

723
00:37:31,647 --> 00:37:34,727
Speaker 3: letting go. Yeah, we just tend to think if I

724
00:37:34,767 --> 00:37:36,647
Speaker 3: say the words and that's it.

725
00:37:36,687 --> 00:37:42,207
Speaker 1: But it's yeah, why are we so verbal? It's interesting, Yeah,

726
00:37:42,247 --> 00:37:45,567
Speaker 1: because back to the idea of if you are nursing

727
00:37:45,607 --> 00:37:49,487
Speaker 1: somebody or spending time with somebody who is dying, there's

728
00:37:49,527 --> 00:37:52,607
Speaker 1: often a lot of pressure to say the things. I mean,

729
00:37:52,607 --> 00:37:54,567
Speaker 1: you put that so beautifully before when you were talking

730
00:37:54,567 --> 00:37:57,527
Speaker 1: about that Hawaiian tradition of saying the four things. But

731
00:37:58,847 --> 00:38:00,927
Speaker 1: sometimes people put an enormous amount of pressure and we've

732
00:38:00,927 --> 00:38:03,887
Speaker 1: got to have this conversation that we've been wanting to

733
00:38:04,207 --> 00:38:08,127
Speaker 1: before they die. Die you have to have this conversation.

734
00:38:09,367 --> 00:38:11,127
Speaker 1: Do you have to have that conversation?

735
00:38:11,647 --> 00:38:15,287
Speaker 3: Well for them, I'm trying to think if I've ever

736
00:38:15,327 --> 00:38:18,327
Speaker 3: managed to have that conversation with anyone before they've done it.

737
00:38:19,007 --> 00:38:21,087
Speaker 3: Even when you think you have had that conversation, you

738
00:38:21,127 --> 00:38:23,847
Speaker 3: still feel like you haven't. You know that there's things missing.

739
00:38:24,247 --> 00:38:27,047
Speaker 3: I think that that's partly something to do with not

740
00:38:27,127 --> 00:38:29,447
Speaker 3: so much like we must have this conversation, and clearly

741
00:38:29,487 --> 00:38:31,167
Speaker 3: yet it's because of American.

742
00:38:30,727 --> 00:38:32,007
Speaker 1: Movies that we think that.

743
00:38:32,447 --> 00:38:37,047
Speaker 3: But it's also like, I'm going to like have the

744
00:38:37,127 --> 00:38:41,047
Speaker 3: relationship with you that I've wanted to have my whole life,

745
00:38:41,127 --> 00:38:45,807
Speaker 3: at least for these five minutes or something. That's so true,

746
00:38:46,007 --> 00:38:48,527
Speaker 3: and it's like they're still the same person. You know,

747
00:38:48,607 --> 00:38:50,487
Speaker 3: you have this conversation with them, They're still going to

748
00:38:50,487 --> 00:38:53,207
Speaker 3: respond the way that they would have five minutes ago

749
00:38:53,287 --> 00:38:59,247
Speaker 3: or something. Dying doesn't change people that much. I'm afraid

750
00:38:59,767 --> 00:39:01,807
Speaker 3: that is something that you know when you grieve, and

751
00:39:01,967 --> 00:39:04,647
Speaker 3: I'm not you know, I'm no grief and trauma expert.

752
00:39:04,807 --> 00:39:07,887
Speaker 3: Just is just from what I've seen and what I've experienced,

753
00:39:07,927 --> 00:39:10,367
Speaker 3: like you grieve what you didn't have as much as

754
00:39:10,407 --> 00:39:13,567
Speaker 3: what you did have with that person. And I do

755
00:39:13,647 --> 00:39:16,047
Speaker 3: think that you are still in a relationship with that

756
00:39:16,087 --> 00:39:18,807
Speaker 3: person after they died, and you do have to work

757
00:39:18,887 --> 00:39:22,567
Speaker 3: through that whether or not they've died, and you do

758
00:39:22,687 --> 00:39:25,007
Speaker 3: have to accept that you're never going to get what

759
00:39:25,047 --> 00:39:26,927
Speaker 3: you wanted from that person.

760
00:39:28,007 --> 00:39:30,847
Speaker 1: Just like no relationships, you always get exactly what you

761
00:39:30,887 --> 00:39:31,367
Speaker 1: want to do.

762
00:39:31,767 --> 00:39:34,727
Speaker 3: No, that's right, and sometimes you're like that's okay, But

763
00:39:35,607 --> 00:39:39,527
Speaker 3: it's harder when they're people that you can't choose, you know,

764
00:39:39,687 --> 00:39:41,207
Speaker 3: like your own parents or siblings.

765
00:39:41,367 --> 00:39:46,567
Speaker 1: Yeah, your expression of how of this cellular change and

766
00:39:47,087 --> 00:39:50,247
Speaker 1: needing to almost lay hands on it? Does that explain why?

767
00:39:50,367 --> 00:39:51,927
Speaker 1: I mean it seems to me we've talked a bit

768
00:39:51,967 --> 00:39:54,047
Speaker 1: about deaths that you can see coming, but when things

769
00:39:54,087 --> 00:39:59,367
Speaker 1: are very sudden, that can be a particular shocking process

770
00:39:59,407 --> 00:40:04,327
Speaker 1: of grief, when somebody just vanishes almost is that? Why

771
00:40:04,567 --> 00:40:08,007
Speaker 1: is it? Because there is no sort of transition almost.

772
00:40:09,287 --> 00:40:12,687
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm just thinking about a loss that we

773
00:40:12,807 --> 00:40:18,887
Speaker 3: had in our family, death by suicide, and that's I mean,

774
00:40:18,927 --> 00:40:21,327
Speaker 3: there's all the stuff about suicide to complicate it. But

775
00:40:22,087 --> 00:40:25,407
Speaker 3: and I've officiated funerals for people like that too. Yeah,

776
00:40:25,447 --> 00:40:28,007
Speaker 3: I think you're right that the shock is part of it.

777
00:40:28,007 --> 00:40:31,847
Speaker 3: It just exacerbates what's already a physical shock, just losing

778
00:40:31,887 --> 00:40:35,927
Speaker 3: someone from your cellular inheritance or something.

779
00:40:36,567 --> 00:40:37,567
Speaker 1: It's also because we.

780
00:40:37,607 --> 00:40:41,567
Speaker 3: Narrate everything in our heads and we just unconsciously feel

781
00:40:41,567 --> 00:40:43,807
Speaker 3: like we know roughly where the story is going to go,

782
00:40:43,847 --> 00:40:46,887
Speaker 3: and then it doesn't bang. And that sort of dissonance

783
00:40:46,967 --> 00:40:49,207
Speaker 3: can be really effective in fiction, but only up to

784
00:40:49,247 --> 00:40:49,727
Speaker 3: a point.

785
00:40:50,007 --> 00:40:50,807
Speaker 1: You don't want.

786
00:40:52,247 --> 00:40:55,927
Speaker 3: The protagonist to die on page thirty.

787
00:40:56,207 --> 00:40:57,967
Speaker 1: And that's the same in life.

788
00:40:58,007 --> 00:41:01,807
Speaker 3: It's just interrupts that what we feel in our bodies

789
00:41:01,887 --> 00:41:04,807
Speaker 3: to be the natural flow of things, especially when a child.

790
00:41:05,127 --> 00:41:07,887
Speaker 3: You know, when a child dies, that's probably the hardest.

791
00:41:08,727 --> 00:41:12,327
Speaker 1: Do you well as a funeral celebrant, as somebody who's

792
00:41:12,367 --> 00:41:15,007
Speaker 1: around death. There's some funerals harder than others. Do you

793
00:41:15,687 --> 00:41:18,247
Speaker 1: connect emotionally to absolutely do.

794
00:41:18,767 --> 00:41:22,287
Speaker 3: And my teacher who does the death Walker trainings and

795
00:41:22,407 --> 00:41:23,287
Speaker 3: at virago, she.

796
00:41:25,007 --> 00:41:25,727
Speaker 1: Taught us.

797
00:41:26,087 --> 00:41:29,087
Speaker 3: When you're officiating a funeral, you know, you might be standing,

798
00:41:29,847 --> 00:41:31,887
Speaker 3: you know, straight on like this, like we are sitting

799
00:41:31,887 --> 00:41:34,487
Speaker 3: at the table, but on the inside you're on an angle,

800
00:41:34,767 --> 00:41:37,647
Speaker 3: and you're letting all that grief and everything flow past

801
00:41:37,727 --> 00:41:41,967
Speaker 3: you to its rightful recipient, which is you know, the

802
00:41:42,007 --> 00:41:45,407
Speaker 3: person in the casket or you, Otherwise you will absorb

803
00:41:45,447 --> 00:41:47,167
Speaker 3: it all and take it on and it's not yours.

804
00:41:47,567 --> 00:41:50,687
Speaker 3: So constantly reminding yourself, this is not my grief. This

805
00:41:50,807 --> 00:41:53,247
Speaker 3: is their grief and their story, and I'm just here

806
00:41:53,407 --> 00:41:57,087
Speaker 3: to steward it, to witness it. I'm not even I

807
00:41:57,087 --> 00:42:00,207
Speaker 3: don't even think of myself as holding the space because

808
00:42:00,207 --> 00:42:03,207
Speaker 3: that's too heavy. People create their own space. I just

809
00:42:03,287 --> 00:42:05,927
Speaker 3: walk with them. I think that's why the term deathwalker

810
00:42:06,007 --> 00:42:08,327
Speaker 3: really works resonates with me.

811
00:42:10,727 --> 00:42:13,767
Speaker 1: Next. We all know it's coming, So why are we

812
00:42:13,967 --> 00:42:17,407
Speaker 1: so bad at preparing for death, either our own or

813
00:42:17,407 --> 00:42:19,647
Speaker 1: that of our loved ones? And what can we do

814
00:42:19,807 --> 00:42:27,567
Speaker 1: to get better at it? Is there? And this may

815
00:42:27,607 --> 00:42:30,047
Speaker 1: not the answer may well be known, of course, but

816
00:42:30,287 --> 00:42:32,807
Speaker 1: is there anything you can do to prepare? You were

817
00:42:32,847 --> 00:42:35,367
Speaker 1: just saying, how you, particularly as you get older, the

818
00:42:35,407 --> 00:42:39,367
Speaker 1: inevitability of loss is ever more likely every day. Is

819
00:42:39,407 --> 00:42:41,407
Speaker 1: there any practical way to prepare for that?

820
00:42:42,047 --> 00:42:43,847
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, there's a bunch of things you can do.

821
00:42:45,247 --> 00:42:46,967
Speaker 3: It depends on how close you are to it. But

822
00:42:47,287 --> 00:42:51,607
Speaker 3: if so, some really practical things. Do an advanced care

823
00:42:51,647 --> 00:42:54,327
Speaker 3: directive and have it on top of the fridge.

824
00:42:54,367 --> 00:42:56,287
Speaker 1: So and right, like get a sign.

825
00:42:56,367 --> 00:42:58,207
Speaker 3: You can get this stuff from a Party of Care

826
00:42:58,207 --> 00:43:02,127
Speaker 3: Australia I think online a sign that this is maybe

827
00:43:02,167 --> 00:43:04,647
Speaker 3: more for our parents people our parents' age, but you

828
00:43:04,807 --> 00:43:07,007
Speaker 3: stick that sign to the door saying my advanced care.

829
00:43:06,847 --> 00:43:08,047
Speaker 1: Directive is on the fridge.

830
00:43:08,447 --> 00:43:11,487
Speaker 3: Because if you're in your own home, it's going to

831
00:43:11,527 --> 00:43:13,807
Speaker 3: be an ambo who comes to pick you up and

832
00:43:13,847 --> 00:43:16,207
Speaker 3: take you to palliative care or whatever, and you want

833
00:43:16,247 --> 00:43:18,087
Speaker 3: them to have that because you might have a do

834
00:43:18,167 --> 00:43:22,127
Speaker 3: not resuscitate or like no medical intervention kind of request

835
00:43:22,167 --> 00:43:24,567
Speaker 3: and they're going to need that. So that's a very

836
00:43:24,607 --> 00:43:27,727
Speaker 3: practical thing you can also get going to get I

837
00:43:27,767 --> 00:43:30,647
Speaker 3: think it's on palliad of Care Australia's website. There's like

838
00:43:30,687 --> 00:43:33,167
Speaker 3: a little card you can put in your wallet with

839
00:43:33,247 --> 00:43:36,967
Speaker 3: the details, with similar kind of details because if you're

840
00:43:37,007 --> 00:43:39,807
Speaker 3: not in care or in a hospital, you want people

841
00:43:39,847 --> 00:43:42,807
Speaker 3: to be able to access that advanced care directive.

842
00:43:44,127 --> 00:43:45,687
Speaker 1: Tell people what you want for your funeral.

843
00:43:46,287 --> 00:43:47,807
Speaker 3: Don't just put it in your will, so like have

844
00:43:47,887 --> 00:43:50,567
Speaker 3: a folder, have like a plastic folder or like a

845
00:43:50,607 --> 00:43:53,967
Speaker 3: recycled impossible folder whatever. But yeah, yeah, in the event

846
00:43:54,007 --> 00:43:55,407
Speaker 3: of my day, Yeah, I put it on top of

847
00:43:55,447 --> 00:43:57,967
Speaker 3: the fridge or somewhere where, you know, and put a

848
00:43:58,007 --> 00:44:00,087
Speaker 3: sign as to where it is, and haveing that which

849
00:44:00,207 --> 00:44:02,887
Speaker 3: is have your advanced care directive, which is an actual document.

850
00:44:03,007 --> 00:44:05,047
Speaker 3: You know, you get your GP to sign it and stuff,

851
00:44:05,407 --> 00:44:07,367
Speaker 3: and then put what you want for your funeral if

852
00:44:07,407 --> 00:44:12,087
Speaker 3: there is anything, particularly music, and then put you know

853
00:44:12,207 --> 00:44:14,007
Speaker 3: how you want to be treated in a few days

854
00:44:14,367 --> 00:44:16,887
Speaker 3: that you might no longer be responsive. I've got like

855
00:44:16,967 --> 00:44:20,487
Speaker 3: a little flyer thing on my website with some questions

856
00:44:20,487 --> 00:44:22,047
Speaker 3: that you can just ask yourself, but they're kind of

857
00:44:22,047 --> 00:44:25,007
Speaker 3: obvious questions. Do I want to be touched? Do I

858
00:44:25,007 --> 00:44:27,407
Speaker 3: want to see a minister of any faith or no faith?

859
00:44:27,447 --> 00:44:29,327
Speaker 3: But do I want to see someone? Do I want

860
00:44:29,327 --> 00:44:33,367
Speaker 3: the window open? Do I want music playing? And if so,

861
00:44:33,487 --> 00:44:38,607
Speaker 3: what do I want oils or massages? Just because generally

862
00:44:38,807 --> 00:44:41,567
Speaker 3: if you're in a palliative care unit, there will be

863
00:44:41,567 --> 00:44:44,127
Speaker 3: some time when you can't tell people what you want,

864
00:44:44,887 --> 00:44:47,607
Speaker 3: so tell them beforehand. It's interesting to me that that

865
00:44:47,727 --> 00:44:51,087
Speaker 3: is a little gap. It's not in the advanced care directive,

866
00:44:51,407 --> 00:44:54,167
Speaker 3: and you know, and funeral wishes are a bit later.

867
00:44:55,007 --> 00:44:58,407
Speaker 1: It's also really even if that's you're thinking about, you

868
00:44:58,447 --> 00:45:00,767
Speaker 1: know how you were saying before that sometimes people who

869
00:45:00,767 --> 00:45:02,607
Speaker 1: are dying or know they're going to die, they might

870
00:45:02,647 --> 00:45:04,087
Speaker 1: want to talk about it, but no one wants to

871
00:45:04,127 --> 00:45:06,807
Speaker 1: hear it because they the thought of losing you is

872
00:45:06,847 --> 00:45:10,607
Speaker 1: too awful for them. So also a good way of

873
00:45:10,687 --> 00:45:14,647
Speaker 1: expressing your wishes without having to you know, that's right,

874
00:45:14,727 --> 00:45:16,247
Speaker 1: and it is a good upset everybody.

875
00:45:16,327 --> 00:45:18,847
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it can get people talking about it. And like,

876
00:45:18,927 --> 00:45:21,887
Speaker 3: if you've got a parent who stubbornly won't talk about

877
00:45:21,927 --> 00:45:23,847
Speaker 3: the fact that they are inevitably going to die in

878
00:45:23,887 --> 00:45:27,687
Speaker 3: the next ten years, then maybe break it open with, well,

879
00:45:27,767 --> 00:45:29,767
Speaker 3: do you want to see a priest? You know, if

880
00:45:29,767 --> 00:45:31,967
Speaker 3: you know that they're really not religious, So that'll get

881
00:45:32,007 --> 00:45:34,647
Speaker 3: them talking and tell them what they don't want. Also,

882
00:45:34,887 --> 00:45:38,887
Speaker 3: music is a real icebreaker on that conversation, what music

883
00:45:38,887 --> 00:45:41,247
Speaker 3: do you want at your funeral? And then again provoke

884
00:45:41,327 --> 00:45:43,207
Speaker 3: them if they really don't want to talk about well,

885
00:45:43,247 --> 00:45:46,487
Speaker 3: I'm going to play. Yeah, you know they hate Just

886
00:45:47,007 --> 00:45:49,687
Speaker 3: also like a couple of things that you personally can

887
00:45:49,767 --> 00:45:52,287
Speaker 3: do to prepare yourself for other people's deaths. You can

888
00:45:52,327 --> 00:45:56,367
Speaker 3: do those things, make yourself an event's care directive and

889
00:45:56,567 --> 00:45:59,127
Speaker 3: write you know what you would want in that event,

890
00:45:59,167 --> 00:46:02,607
Speaker 3: because not to be morbid, but yeah, I mean you

891
00:46:02,647 --> 00:46:04,887
Speaker 3: could die at any moment. But more to the point,

892
00:46:05,087 --> 00:46:07,527
Speaker 3: it makes you understand what they have to do and

893
00:46:07,567 --> 00:46:11,287
Speaker 3: what they're going through. There are Buddhist practices as well

894
00:46:11,327 --> 00:46:18,447
Speaker 3: for contemplating death, meditation practices of imagining everybody dead super fun.

895
00:46:18,647 --> 00:46:21,727
Speaker 3: And a friend of mine had this thing of get

896
00:46:21,767 --> 00:46:25,607
Speaker 3: an exercise book and on each page like a small

897
00:46:25,647 --> 00:46:29,047
Speaker 3: exercise book, right a year, so twenty twenty four to

898
00:46:29,087 --> 00:46:32,007
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, like a year from now, and you'll

899
00:46:32,007 --> 00:46:34,087
Speaker 3: find that you've only probably got thirty pages.

900
00:46:34,727 --> 00:46:37,207
Speaker 1: And oh my god, right, you've confronted me.

901
00:46:37,287 --> 00:46:39,767
Speaker 3: It's real though, it's real, and this is how I think,

902
00:46:39,967 --> 00:46:42,447
Speaker 3: This is how I roll. So I'm like, Okay, I'm

903
00:46:42,487 --> 00:46:48,407
Speaker 3: forty seven. I've probably got, if I'm lucky twenty at

904
00:46:48,407 --> 00:46:51,527
Speaker 3: the outer good years of work working life to take

905
00:46:51,527 --> 00:46:53,327
Speaker 3: me to sixty seven if I'm lucky.

906
00:46:53,567 --> 00:46:55,327
Speaker 1: I think that's probably like.

907
00:46:55,327 --> 00:46:58,247
Speaker 3: The retirement age whatever it is, twenty good years. How

908
00:46:58,247 --> 00:47:00,447
Speaker 3: many books might I get to write in that time.

909
00:47:00,807 --> 00:47:02,607
Speaker 3: Takes me a few years to write one, you know,

910
00:47:02,727 --> 00:47:04,927
Speaker 3: like break it down, be real with it.

911
00:47:05,127 --> 00:47:09,527
Speaker 1: Wow, you know, treat your years like a budget, right,

912
00:47:09,607 --> 00:47:12,367
Speaker 1: And you know, you don't know this happened to you

913
00:47:12,447 --> 00:47:15,887
Speaker 1: when you had your daughter. When I had my first child,

914
00:47:16,007 --> 00:47:20,767
Speaker 1: who's fourteen now, I suddenly actually the only time when

915
00:47:20,807 --> 00:47:23,887
Speaker 1: I suddenly became a bit obsessed with the fact I

916
00:47:23,927 --> 00:47:26,127
Speaker 1: was going to die because I look at her and

917
00:47:26,447 --> 00:47:28,047
Speaker 1: now my son, and I'm just like, I don't want

918
00:47:28,047 --> 00:47:30,647
Speaker 1: to leave them. Like It's made me much more you know,

919
00:47:30,647 --> 00:47:32,967
Speaker 1: which I think is very common, is that somehow sometimes

920
00:47:33,007 --> 00:47:36,407
Speaker 1: parenthood can really confront you with your mortality. You've been

921
00:47:36,447 --> 00:47:42,047
Speaker 1: so close to this, yeah, so it's yeah, wow, Okay, that.

922
00:47:42,167 --> 00:47:45,007
Speaker 3: Was my first I feel like, like, yeah, death, death,

923
00:47:45,047 --> 00:47:47,127
Speaker 3: I'm so familiar with death. But when I was pregnant

924
00:47:47,127 --> 00:47:48,927
Speaker 3: with my daughter, that was the first time I really

925
00:47:48,967 --> 00:47:52,247
Speaker 3: felt it in my body, my own mortality, that sense

926
00:47:52,287 --> 00:47:54,647
Speaker 3: of passing on the flame or something.

927
00:47:54,727 --> 00:47:58,727
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, I'm that's how the species works. You're

928
00:47:59,687 --> 00:48:03,047
Speaker 1: very interested in spirituality that isn't connected to religion. You

929
00:48:03,087 --> 00:48:06,407
Speaker 1: grew up religious though, right, and you're lapsed, Yes, yes,

930
00:48:06,807 --> 00:48:12,487
Speaker 1: proudly lapse. Perhaps it be very helpful in grief. I've

931
00:48:12,527 --> 00:48:14,887
Speaker 1: seen it when we were sitting around saying goodbye to

932
00:48:14,927 --> 00:48:18,487
Speaker 1: my mother in law, which was that My sister in law,

933
00:48:18,527 --> 00:48:23,807
Speaker 1: who is a very spiritual person, was calm like a

934
00:48:24,007 --> 00:48:27,767
Speaker 1: lake in that room, and all of us faithless people

935
00:48:28,047 --> 00:48:34,007
Speaker 1: were a mess, raging against it, like wanting her to

936
00:48:34,047 --> 00:48:39,447
Speaker 1: hold on. Right. So faith plays a very important role,

937
00:48:39,487 --> 00:48:42,967
Speaker 1: doesn't it. In some ways. I've seen it also in

938
00:48:43,007 --> 00:48:48,127
Speaker 1: more traditional funerals that if you do genuinely believe it's

939
00:48:48,127 --> 00:48:50,487
Speaker 1: not the end, it seems easier. Do you see that

940
00:48:50,567 --> 00:48:52,247
Speaker 1: it helps? Yeah?

941
00:48:52,247 --> 00:48:54,807
Speaker 3: I imagine it would make it easier. I imagine that's why

942
00:48:54,847 --> 00:48:57,967
Speaker 3: those doctrines are really successful. Have you read the book

943
00:48:58,007 --> 00:49:02,247
Speaker 3: I think it's called Mortals. It's by couple of Australian researchers.

944
00:49:02,287 --> 00:49:06,087
Speaker 3: They're actually father and daughter and they're both academic psychologists anyway,

945
00:49:06,247 --> 00:49:08,087
Speaker 3: and it's all about how the fear of death has

946
00:49:08,127 --> 00:49:12,607
Speaker 3: shaped human society and how Christianity. Their argument is Christianity

947
00:49:13,007 --> 00:49:18,167
Speaker 3: was such a successful religion because it gave people life

948
00:49:18,167 --> 00:49:21,407
Speaker 3: after death. It gave them that promise. I mean, I

949
00:49:21,407 --> 00:49:22,647
Speaker 3: don't know if that's true or not, but.

950
00:49:24,287 --> 00:49:24,927
Speaker 1: I can see it.

951
00:49:25,287 --> 00:49:30,207
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question because faith can

952
00:49:30,247 --> 00:49:34,007
Speaker 3: go either way. Like people can really take comfort in it.

953
00:49:34,767 --> 00:49:37,327
Speaker 3: Other people in the family might feel excluded by that.

954
00:49:37,887 --> 00:49:40,967
Speaker 3: Other people might get really angry that it is or

955
00:49:41,047 --> 00:49:44,927
Speaker 3: isn't being done properly. So faith can Yeah, it's not

956
00:49:45,007 --> 00:49:46,447
Speaker 3: always a perfect good.

957
00:49:46,687 --> 00:49:47,967
Speaker 1: That's not an absolute good.

958
00:49:49,247 --> 00:49:52,167
Speaker 3: I think if the person had a belief, and that's

959
00:49:52,207 --> 00:49:56,007
Speaker 3: a question always to ask somebody if you can before

960
00:49:56,047 --> 00:49:58,607
Speaker 3: they die, But if not, then I will ask their

961
00:49:58,607 --> 00:50:02,207
Speaker 3: family afterwards, is what did they think happens after they die?

962
00:50:02,567 --> 00:50:05,567
Speaker 3: Because ultimately that's what you respect in that period of

963
00:50:05,607 --> 00:50:08,567
Speaker 3: time before death. You don't try and impose your beliefs Suddenly,

964
00:50:09,367 --> 00:50:11,447
Speaker 3: your mother in law did think that, So it's great

965
00:50:11,647 --> 00:50:13,967
Speaker 3: that your sister in law was there to kind of

966
00:50:14,327 --> 00:50:17,807
Speaker 3: feel that with her. Yeah, we all know that our

967
00:50:17,847 --> 00:50:21,527
Speaker 3: bodies return to the earth, and I think that there's

968
00:50:22,327 --> 00:50:24,527
Speaker 3: just based on the facts that we do you have

969
00:50:24,607 --> 00:50:30,087
Speaker 3: to hand, that's fairly kind of that gives me comfort.

970
00:50:31,007 --> 00:50:34,207
Speaker 3: My child when she was little, she said to me,

971
00:50:34,287 --> 00:50:36,847
Speaker 3: she couldn't wait to be She doesn't think this anymore,

972
00:50:36,887 --> 00:50:38,967
Speaker 3: but she couldn't wait to be dead so she could

973
00:50:39,047 --> 00:50:41,807
Speaker 3: know what it was like to be the grass. And

974
00:50:41,847 --> 00:50:46,127
Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, when I said that, I don't

975
00:50:46,167 --> 00:50:48,327
Speaker 3: know if we still have consciousness starting, so like, don't

976
00:50:48,447 --> 00:50:48,887
Speaker 3: jump off this.

977
00:50:51,887 --> 00:50:55,927
Speaker 1: People often after somebody's death there it brings up so

978
00:50:56,087 --> 00:50:59,727
Speaker 1: much as disgusted and we're not talking about getting over things,

979
00:50:59,767 --> 00:51:03,727
Speaker 1: but it's I wasn't there for them enough. I wasn't

980
00:51:03,767 --> 00:51:05,967
Speaker 1: around enough. She just wanted me to call her every

981
00:51:06,007 --> 00:51:09,047
Speaker 1: Saturday and I didn't. Or there's a bit of me

982
00:51:09,087 --> 00:51:12,447
Speaker 1: that relieved because it was very difficult to care for

983
00:51:12,487 --> 00:51:15,647
Speaker 1: her and her last years. Or you know, I said

984
00:51:15,647 --> 00:51:17,887
Speaker 1: that thing to her once and I never got to apologize.

985
00:51:18,007 --> 00:51:22,527
Speaker 1: Or it's just an enormous cloud that seems to be

986
00:51:22,567 --> 00:51:27,327
Speaker 1: part of grief. Have you or in your practices, found

987
00:51:27,487 --> 00:51:28,607
Speaker 1: any paths through that.

988
00:51:33,407 --> 00:51:35,327
Speaker 3: I mean, I am a lapsed Catholic, so I do

989
00:51:35,487 --> 00:51:44,287
Speaker 3: understand guilt. Yes, it's guilt is like every emotion. I

990
00:51:44,287 --> 00:51:47,207
Speaker 3: feel like it's evolved for a reason. So guilt is

991
00:51:47,287 --> 00:51:49,807
Speaker 3: just the flip side of making sure that you do

992
00:51:49,967 --> 00:51:53,367
Speaker 3: right by your people and your community. But it's kind

993
00:51:53,367 --> 00:51:56,127
Speaker 3: of like modern anxiety. It's not useful if a tiger's

994
00:51:56,167 --> 00:51:58,327
Speaker 3: not about to pounce on you, you know, So that

995
00:51:58,447 --> 00:52:02,727
Speaker 3: kind of guilt after someone's died, who is it helping?

996
00:52:03,367 --> 00:52:06,087
Speaker 3: So I feel like it's appropriate to kind of go, yeah,

997
00:52:06,127 --> 00:52:08,687
Speaker 3: I should have called them more often, you know, just

998
00:52:08,847 --> 00:52:11,927
Speaker 3: own it, just accept it. I wasn't the best person.

999
00:52:12,167 --> 00:52:14,567
Speaker 3: I should have done more. I could have done more.

1000
00:52:15,127 --> 00:52:18,687
Speaker 3: I'll do differently. Hopefully next time I'll be more aware.

1001
00:52:19,007 --> 00:52:23,887
Speaker 3: Because one thing people don't always realize is that their

1002
00:52:23,927 --> 00:52:25,047
Speaker 3: parents are going to die.

1003
00:52:25,687 --> 00:52:27,127
Speaker 1: Sooner or later. Everyone is going.

1004
00:52:27,047 --> 00:52:29,847
Speaker 3: To die, which is, you know, it's a great way

1005
00:52:29,887 --> 00:52:32,807
Speaker 3: to live knowing that, well, but it kind of is

1006
00:52:33,047 --> 00:52:36,687
Speaker 3: It forces you to think about how you're behaving towards

1007
00:52:36,727 --> 00:52:40,047
Speaker 3: that person. I mean, it shouldn't shape everything, but if

1008
00:52:40,087 --> 00:52:42,487
Speaker 3: you know your parents are getting older, they are going

1009
00:52:42,527 --> 00:52:45,247
Speaker 3: to probably die sometime in the next ten years. If

1010
00:52:45,247 --> 00:52:48,247
Speaker 3: you're our age, hopefully they'll die sometimes in the next

1011
00:52:48,247 --> 00:52:50,807
Speaker 3: ten years. Because beyond that, it's not going to be

1012
00:52:50,887 --> 00:52:54,767
Speaker 3: pleasant for them or anybody probably, so just kind of

1013
00:52:54,767 --> 00:52:58,847
Speaker 3: behave accordingly if you can, like and manage it.

1014
00:52:58,967 --> 00:53:00,687
Speaker 1: So you know, maybe it's like I.

1015
00:53:00,647 --> 00:53:03,207
Speaker 3: Really should go and see them oh my god, just

1016
00:53:03,247 --> 00:53:05,287
Speaker 3: schedule it in. You know, it doesn't mean you have

1017
00:53:05,327 --> 00:53:07,687
Speaker 3: to go every week or call them every week, but

1018
00:53:07,727 --> 00:53:09,487
Speaker 3: if you know, I should really call them every week week,

1019
00:53:09,487 --> 00:53:11,367
Speaker 3: maybe call them every couple of weeks.

1020
00:53:11,447 --> 00:53:12,367
Speaker 1: Just do what you.

1021
00:53:12,247 --> 00:53:15,167
Speaker 3: Can, but still do it even if you don't want

1022
00:53:15,167 --> 00:53:17,247
Speaker 3: to do it, because we do get into this kind

1023
00:53:17,287 --> 00:53:20,087
Speaker 3: of I feel like you get into you just stay

1024
00:53:20,087 --> 00:53:24,247
Speaker 3: in this adolescent kind of mindset towards your parents sometimes,

1025
00:53:24,487 --> 00:53:25,847
Speaker 3: especially if you've moved away.

1026
00:53:25,647 --> 00:53:26,767
Speaker 1: From them when you were young.

1027
00:53:27,087 --> 00:53:29,327
Speaker 3: You know, like a lot of people move countries or whatever,

1028
00:53:29,327 --> 00:53:31,687
Speaker 3: your move states and like, yeah, I left as soon

1029
00:53:31,727 --> 00:53:35,167
Speaker 3: as I could kind of thing. So your relationship can

1030
00:53:35,247 --> 00:53:39,207
Speaker 3: sometimes founder a little bit and you sort of stay

1031
00:53:39,247 --> 00:53:41,727
Speaker 3: in that dynamic when you're thinking about what you should

1032
00:53:41,847 --> 00:53:45,087
Speaker 3: be doing for your person. So maybe just yeah, take

1033
00:53:45,127 --> 00:53:46,807
Speaker 3: a step out of that and think, well, what would

1034
00:53:46,847 --> 00:53:50,287
Speaker 3: forty seven year old Jackie think is appropriate to do

1035
00:53:50,887 --> 00:53:53,487
Speaker 3: this person as opposed to what would seventeen year old Jackie,

1036
00:53:53,567 --> 00:53:55,367
Speaker 3: Because that's like the automatic.

1037
00:53:55,927 --> 00:53:57,727
Speaker 1: You know, we were talking about how there's no such

1038
00:53:57,767 --> 00:54:01,127
Speaker 1: thing as getting over it, right, but I there are

1039
00:54:01,567 --> 00:54:07,087
Speaker 1: people who maybe are so knocked by close death to

1040
00:54:07,127 --> 00:54:09,367
Speaker 1: theirs that there years and years, and they feel like

1041
00:54:09,447 --> 00:54:13,607
Speaker 1: they're not moving through it, and they're still stuck there.

1042
00:54:13,647 --> 00:54:16,647
Speaker 1: And they're very not stuck there. That's really negative language.

1043
00:54:16,647 --> 00:54:19,527
Speaker 1: They're still feeling it every day and sort of asking themselves,

1044
00:54:19,527 --> 00:54:23,767
Speaker 1: why aren't I getting past it? Do you think there's

1045
00:54:24,247 --> 00:54:26,127
Speaker 1: is that just therapy time?

1046
00:54:26,447 --> 00:54:29,367
Speaker 3: I mean, if it was really sudden, it was a

1047
00:54:29,407 --> 00:54:31,927
Speaker 3: shock that, like I said with my dad, it took

1048
00:54:31,927 --> 00:54:35,407
Speaker 3: me like ten years, I reckon to not have that

1049
00:54:36,207 --> 00:54:39,167
Speaker 3: the heat around it. I don't know how the inflammation

1050
00:54:39,687 --> 00:54:42,567
Speaker 3: of the wound. It took me a long time. And therapy,

1051
00:54:43,247 --> 00:54:49,887
Speaker 3: lots of therapy and medications, all the things. Is there

1052
00:54:50,407 --> 00:54:55,287
Speaker 3: like any appropriate time, Yeah, I feel like so physiologically,

1053
00:54:55,327 --> 00:54:58,527
Speaker 3: at least a year is pretty normal. If it's a

1054
00:54:58,567 --> 00:55:01,727
Speaker 3: partner or someone pretty close to you. Sometimes it takes

1055
00:55:01,727 --> 00:55:04,847
Speaker 3: another death to unseat the previous.

1056
00:55:04,447 --> 00:55:05,487
Speaker 1: Death, if you know what I mean.

1057
00:55:05,607 --> 00:55:08,287
Speaker 3: So it's weird, but you might be thinking about a

1058
00:55:08,287 --> 00:55:11,007
Speaker 3: person who's died every day, and then someone else dies

1059
00:55:11,367 --> 00:55:15,687
Speaker 3: and they kind of get shuffled along in the spectrum

1060
00:55:15,727 --> 00:55:17,967
Speaker 3: and you have all your ghosts coming to visit you.

1061
00:55:17,967 --> 00:55:20,767
Speaker 3: You can ask your ghosts to leave you alone. I

1062
00:55:20,807 --> 00:55:21,927
Speaker 3: don't know if it's real.

1063
00:55:22,047 --> 00:55:22,207
Speaker 1: You know.

1064
00:55:22,207 --> 00:55:24,647
Speaker 3: I don't know if people are actually coming back to

1065
00:55:24,687 --> 00:55:28,007
Speaker 3: haunt you or anything, but maybe there's something in the

1066
00:55:28,127 --> 00:55:32,327
Speaker 3: ritual of saying you know, that's enough, thank you. Our

1067
00:55:32,367 --> 00:55:34,927
Speaker 3: relationship has moved on from this, and I need you

1068
00:55:35,007 --> 00:55:37,727
Speaker 3: to not be around every day, but just on these

1069
00:55:38,487 --> 00:55:43,007
Speaker 3: particular days, your anniversary and one day of the Dead Christmas,

1070
00:55:43,047 --> 00:55:47,567
Speaker 3: like that'll do. Like being clear with your person who's

1071
00:55:47,607 --> 00:55:51,327
Speaker 3: died as you would with someone who's alive. Again, I

1072
00:55:51,367 --> 00:55:54,327
Speaker 3: don't know if you're really communicating with someone who's dead,

1073
00:55:54,367 --> 00:55:56,287
Speaker 3: but at least you're in a way being clear with

1074
00:55:56,327 --> 00:56:00,927
Speaker 3: yourself in terms of what you're willing to keep giving

1075
00:56:01,087 --> 00:56:04,247
Speaker 3: to that relationship. And you might be the one who

1076
00:56:04,287 --> 00:56:07,047
Speaker 3: needs to put those boundaries around it. I mean, in

1077
00:56:07,087 --> 00:56:10,287
Speaker 3: my experience, some people can be stickier than I and

1078
00:56:10,847 --> 00:56:15,167
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's me or them, doesn't really

1079
00:56:15,207 --> 00:56:19,527
Speaker 3: matter that, Like what's happening is the same, So you

1080
00:56:19,647 --> 00:56:21,887
Speaker 3: just have to be pretty clear. And the other thing

1081
00:56:22,327 --> 00:56:26,487
Speaker 3: I always do when I'm doing a funeral or I'm

1082
00:56:26,527 --> 00:56:30,927
Speaker 3: visiting a dead body, I always ask my noble ancestors

1083
00:56:30,927 --> 00:56:34,167
Speaker 3: to protect me. I always say, please, noble ancestors, please

1084
00:56:34,167 --> 00:56:38,647
Speaker 3: protect me. Close the door behind you, something along those lines.

1085
00:56:39,607 --> 00:56:39,887
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1086
00:56:39,927 --> 00:56:41,967
Speaker 3: Again, I don't know if it's magic or real or

1087
00:56:42,247 --> 00:56:44,887
Speaker 3: but what it does is it sets the boundaries, like

1088
00:56:44,967 --> 00:56:46,087
Speaker 3: in any relationship.

1089
00:56:46,767 --> 00:56:49,887
Speaker 1: You started this conversation by saying that you've been thinking

1090
00:56:50,167 --> 00:56:54,047
Speaker 1: about death since you were seven, fascinated by it, and

1091
00:56:54,087 --> 00:56:56,407
Speaker 1: you just said that it's not a bad way to

1092
00:56:56,447 --> 00:56:58,287
Speaker 1: live your life to know that it's finite and to

1093
00:56:58,327 --> 00:57:01,327
Speaker 1: know that people around you are going to die. Do

1094
00:57:01,407 --> 00:57:04,407
Speaker 1: you think that has really helped you live the kind

1095
00:57:04,447 --> 00:57:06,807
Speaker 1: of life that you wanted to live. Yeah.

1096
00:57:07,207 --> 00:57:09,247
Speaker 3: Yeah, for a long time, because I'm a pretty anxious person.

1097
00:57:10,207 --> 00:57:13,927
Speaker 3: But what I realized, I don't know when, at some

1098
00:57:14,007 --> 00:57:16,567
Speaker 3: point in those forty seven years, was that I'm also

1099
00:57:16,647 --> 00:57:19,167
Speaker 3: pretty brave. I think as a result, and I don't

1100
00:57:19,207 --> 00:57:23,207
Speaker 3: feel brave, but I always I always do what I'm

1101
00:57:23,247 --> 00:57:25,847
Speaker 3: scared of because I think it's the right thing to do.

1102
00:57:26,287 --> 00:57:29,727
Speaker 3: And I think it was people. It was my sister.

1103
00:57:29,887 --> 00:57:33,087
Speaker 3: It's because of my sister. She was a woman of faith,

1104
00:57:33,727 --> 00:57:35,567
Speaker 3: and I wasn't so that you know, had all of

1105
00:57:35,567 --> 00:57:38,927
Speaker 3: its dramas, inherent dramas, but so she had so much

1106
00:57:39,047 --> 00:57:43,807
Speaker 3: love and that protected me from a lot of stuff

1107
00:57:43,847 --> 00:57:45,927
Speaker 3: that my sisters probably didn't have. The same level of

1108
00:57:45,927 --> 00:57:51,887
Speaker 3: protection from so I needed to really focus on what

1109
00:57:52,007 --> 00:57:55,767
Speaker 3: I valued and do that and live with integrity. I

1110
00:57:55,807 --> 00:57:59,047
Speaker 3: think I learned that from her and the constant idea

1111
00:57:59,047 --> 00:58:01,887
Speaker 3: that she might die. I do think about death all

1112
00:58:01,927 --> 00:58:03,687
Speaker 3: the time every day, and I do know that the

1113
00:58:03,727 --> 00:58:05,927
Speaker 3: people in my life are going to die.

1114
00:58:06,127 --> 00:58:10,047
Speaker 1: That knowledge is always there for me.

1115
00:58:11,967 --> 00:58:13,447
Speaker 3: I don't know if it makes me a better person,

1116
00:58:13,487 --> 00:58:17,247
Speaker 3: but it makes me a more, probably annoyingly determined person.

1117
00:58:18,007 --> 00:58:18,287
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1118
00:58:18,327 --> 00:58:21,567
Speaker 3: And like you know, also, when you turn forty, you

1119
00:58:21,687 --> 00:58:24,367
Speaker 3: just don't take as much crap anymore. I think I've

1120
00:58:24,447 --> 00:58:26,927
Speaker 3: kind of been like that for like since I was thirty.

1121
00:58:28,927 --> 00:58:32,447
Speaker 1: That's great, Well, thank you, thank you for sharing your

1122
00:58:32,487 --> 00:58:40,007
Speaker 1: wisdom about this with us. That's been amazing. No worries. Well,

1123
00:58:40,047 --> 00:58:43,167
Speaker 1: I hope you found that conversation as nourishing as I did.

1124
00:58:43,327 --> 00:58:45,527
Speaker 1: I have to tell you that after we finished it,

1125
00:58:45,967 --> 00:58:48,647
Speaker 1: we walked out into the busy Mama Mere kitchen and Jackie,

1126
00:58:48,727 --> 00:58:52,847
Speaker 1: our producer, Telyssa, and I did a little like cleansing

1127
00:58:52,967 --> 00:58:55,447
Speaker 1: ceremony of our own. We held hands and we breathed

1128
00:58:55,487 --> 00:58:58,167
Speaker 1: out all the heaviness of some of that conversation. And

1129
00:58:58,207 --> 00:59:01,087
Speaker 1: if you're finding that that was very heavy for you too.

1130
00:59:01,607 --> 00:59:04,527
Speaker 1: I'm going to urge you to do that. I don't

1131
00:59:04,567 --> 00:59:06,967
Speaker 1: know if I'm brave enough to get an exercise book

1132
00:59:06,967 --> 00:59:08,887
Speaker 1: out and write down all the years I have left,

1133
00:59:09,287 --> 00:59:11,647
Speaker 1: but I'm going to think about it. I don't know

1134
00:59:11,647 --> 00:59:13,287
Speaker 1: if I'm brave enough to face what I know. I'm

1135
00:59:13,287 --> 00:59:16,087
Speaker 1: already facing the inevitable loss still to come my way

1136
00:59:16,127 --> 00:59:19,527
Speaker 1: when my parents do die. But I know that this conversation,

1137
00:59:20,007 --> 00:59:23,887
Speaker 1: far from being depressing, was energizing and beautiful and profound.

1138
00:59:24,567 --> 00:59:26,767
Speaker 1: They're the kind of conversations I really want to have.

1139
00:59:27,007 --> 00:59:30,727
Speaker 1: They're the ones that really matter. If you're suffering in grief,

1140
00:59:30,807 --> 00:59:33,247
Speaker 1: if the loss is looming for you, or is already there,

1141
00:59:33,367 --> 00:59:35,847
Speaker 1: please reach out for help. We'll put some links into

1142
00:59:35,847 --> 00:59:37,847
Speaker 1: the show notes to organizations who might be able to

1143
00:59:37,887 --> 00:59:40,007
Speaker 1: help you do that, and we're also going to put

1144
00:59:40,007 --> 00:59:41,687
Speaker 1: some links in the show notes to way you and

1145
00:59:41,847 --> 00:59:44,527
Speaker 1: learn more about what Jackie does, find the resources she

1146
00:59:44,607 --> 00:59:47,847
Speaker 1: was talking about, and buy her beautiful, surprisingly funny book.

1147
00:59:48,927 --> 00:59:52,327
Speaker 1: Please be kind to yourself. It's an overused phrase, but

1148
00:59:52,447 --> 00:59:55,487
Speaker 1: I really really mean it. And thank you to my

1149
00:59:55,527 --> 00:59:59,487
Speaker 1: brilliant producer, to Elisabethzaz for sitting through these emotional records

1150
00:59:59,487 --> 01:00:02,847
Speaker 1: with me and to our entire podcast an editorial team

1151
01:00:02,887 --> 01:00:05,087
Speaker 1: for their support of MID and if you like MID,

1152
01:00:05,447 --> 01:00:08,247
Speaker 1: tell your friends like, Share, leave us a review, and

1153
01:00:08,327 --> 01:00:15,447
Speaker 1: come back next week. Thank you for listening out louders.

1154
01:00:15,687 --> 01:00:19,087
Speaker 1: I hope that Jackie's words gave you something if they did,

1155
01:00:19,287 --> 01:00:21,567
Speaker 1: pass them on to someone else who needs to hear them.

1156
01:00:22,167 --> 01:00:24,847
Speaker 1: And if you're looking for more interesting conversations over the

1157
01:00:24,887 --> 01:00:27,567
Speaker 1: summer break, Once you've finished listening to All Mama Mea

1158
01:00:27,567 --> 01:00:30,927
Speaker 1: Outloud's excellent hot pod summer content, jump over to our

1159
01:00:30,967 --> 01:00:33,727
Speaker 1: midfeed to see what's happening over there. We'll put a

1160
01:00:33,767 --> 01:00:36,407
Speaker 1: link in the show notes. And don't forget that we

1161
01:00:36,487 --> 01:00:38,927
Speaker 1: have loads of Mamma Mia outloud coming your way to

1162
01:00:39,087 --> 01:00:41,207
Speaker 1: so make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast

1163
01:00:41,247 --> 01:00:43,167
Speaker 1: app and you'll never miss an episode