1 00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:13,047 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767 Speaker 2: Mamma mer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:23,127 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 4 00:00:23,167 --> 00:00:25,887 Speaker 2: mom Mire out Loud. It's Wednesday, the twenty ninth of May. 5 00:00:25,927 --> 00:00:27,807 Speaker 2: And I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm. 6 00:00:27,607 --> 00:00:29,567 Speaker 3: Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 7 00:00:29,607 --> 00:00:32,287 Speaker 2: And on the show today, did you see that video 8 00:00:32,447 --> 00:00:35,207 Speaker 2: of the woman running the half marathon and her husband 9 00:00:35,407 --> 00:00:38,287 Speaker 2: ushered their kids into her path just when she was 10 00:00:38,327 --> 00:00:41,207 Speaker 2: about to win. Yes, you did, and everything you think 11 00:00:41,247 --> 00:00:44,927 Speaker 2: about that video is wrong. Sorry about that. Also, Generation 12 00:00:45,047 --> 00:00:48,207 Speaker 2: Alpha have entered the chat and everything's skippity toilet and 13 00:00:49,127 --> 00:00:53,167 Speaker 2: not feeling it today. Perhaps it's time for some unhappiness leave. 14 00:00:53,647 --> 00:00:55,047 Speaker 2: But first, Jesse. 15 00:00:55,287 --> 00:00:59,367 Speaker 3: Today, doctor Christos Christo, who is the president of Doctors 16 00:00:59,367 --> 00:01:03,087 Speaker 3: Without Borders, said on ABC Radio National that he has 17 00:01:03,167 --> 00:01:05,407 Speaker 3: run out of words to describe the horrors of the 18 00:01:05,447 --> 00:01:09,567 Speaker 3: situation in Gaza. This week, a deadly air stra in 19 00:01:09,607 --> 00:01:12,927 Speaker 3: the area of Rafa in southern Gaza killed at least 20 00:01:13,047 --> 00:01:17,127 Speaker 3: forty five Palestinians and wounded dozens of others. This is 21 00:01:17,127 --> 00:01:20,247 Speaker 3: a place that the Israel Defense Force had declared safe. 22 00:01:20,487 --> 00:01:24,167 Speaker 3: It is where Palestinians have fled as Israel forces continue 23 00:01:24,167 --> 00:01:28,447 Speaker 3: their offensive. Just last week, the International Court of Justice 24 00:01:28,767 --> 00:01:32,567 Speaker 3: ordered Israel to halt its military operation in Rafa, noting 25 00:01:32,607 --> 00:01:36,007 Speaker 3: the immense risk to the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians 26 00:01:36,367 --> 00:01:40,047 Speaker 3: taking shelter there with nowhere to go. The international community, 27 00:01:40,087 --> 00:01:43,407 Speaker 3: from President Joe Biden to French Prime Minister Emmanuel Macron, 28 00:01:43,807 --> 00:01:46,967 Speaker 3: to our own Foreign Minister Penniwong, who said do not 29 00:01:47,127 --> 00:01:50,687 Speaker 3: go down this path, all foresaw what was going to 30 00:01:50,727 --> 00:01:56,007 Speaker 3: happen in Ruffa. So what did happen? Palestinians were sheltering intents, 31 00:01:56,247 --> 00:01:59,687 Speaker 3: seeking refuge from the bombardment they have faced for seven 32 00:01:59,727 --> 00:02:03,007 Speaker 3: months now, and according to the mayor of Ruffa, the 33 00:02:03,047 --> 00:02:06,727 Speaker 3: IDF launched more than seven missiles which killed men, women 34 00:02:06,847 --> 00:02:10,887 Speaker 3: and children. These civiliansans were killed in ways I do 35 00:02:10,967 --> 00:02:13,687 Speaker 3: not wish to detail. The horrors are too much to bear. 36 00:02:14,167 --> 00:02:16,687 Speaker 3: The last hospital in Rafa is on the brink of 37 00:02:16,727 --> 00:02:20,767 Speaker 3: no longer functioning, so there were few services to treat burns. 38 00:02:21,247 --> 00:02:24,527 Speaker 3: Displaced people dug through the rubble in an attempt to 39 00:02:24,567 --> 00:02:28,447 Speaker 3: find the bodies of their families, of their babies. Then 40 00:02:28,567 --> 00:02:32,607 Speaker 3: came the international condemnation. This is what Foreign Minister Penny 41 00:02:32,647 --> 00:02:34,247 Speaker 3: Wong said in the Senate. 42 00:02:34,287 --> 00:02:36,927 Speaker 4: May recall that the Prime Minister and I have both 43 00:02:36,967 --> 00:02:40,647 Speaker 4: said in relation to Rafa, our message to the Metayahoo 44 00:02:40,727 --> 00:02:45,647 Speaker 4: government do not go down this path. The international community 45 00:02:45,687 --> 00:02:48,207 Speaker 4: has been one on this. What we have seen in 46 00:02:48,287 --> 00:02:51,607 Speaker 4: the past twenty four hours reinforces why we and the 47 00:02:51,647 --> 00:02:56,407 Speaker 4: international community issued this warning. The death and destruction in 48 00:02:56,487 --> 00:03:00,527 Speaker 4: Rafa is horrific. This human suffering is unacceptable, and we 49 00:03:00,567 --> 00:03:03,927 Speaker 4: reiterate to the government of Israel this cannot continue. 50 00:03:04,127 --> 00:03:07,167 Speaker 3: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netnia, who has referred to what 51 00:03:07,247 --> 00:03:12,287 Speaker 3: happened as a tragic mishap, and yet emerging reports indicate 52 00:03:12,487 --> 00:03:15,047 Speaker 3: that such an attack has happened again, with twenty one 53 00:03:15,087 --> 00:03:18,367 Speaker 3: people killed by an alleged Israeli air strike in a 54 00:03:18,407 --> 00:03:21,927 Speaker 3: so called safe area. Thirteen are believed to be women 55 00:03:21,927 --> 00:03:25,727 Speaker 3: and children. This rhetoric of a tragic mishap is something 56 00:03:25,887 --> 00:03:28,007 Speaker 3: we have heard again and again. We spoke a few 57 00:03:28,047 --> 00:03:30,807 Speaker 3: months ago about a six year old girl. There was 58 00:03:30,887 --> 00:03:33,607 Speaker 3: audio of her calling for emergency aid after she had 59 00:03:33,607 --> 00:03:36,567 Speaker 3: fled with her family, all of whom had been killed 60 00:03:36,567 --> 00:03:38,767 Speaker 3: by an Israeli Army tank who shot at their vehicle. 61 00:03:39,447 --> 00:03:43,247 Speaker 3: The call then went silent and Hindra Jab was also killed. 62 00:03:43,967 --> 00:03:46,967 Speaker 3: Australian journalist Jan Fran has shared a series of these 63 00:03:46,967 --> 00:03:50,087 Speaker 3: so called mistakes from the Israeli military, admitting it was 64 00:03:50,127 --> 00:03:54,247 Speaker 3: a mistake killing aid workers, Palestinian civilians walking down the street, 65 00:03:54,287 --> 00:03:57,767 Speaker 3: a four year old girl, journalists, three Israeli hostages. We 66 00:03:57,847 --> 00:04:01,167 Speaker 3: have watched as maternity hospitals have been destroyed, Premature babies 67 00:04:01,287 --> 00:04:03,887 Speaker 3: died at Alshifa Hospital. I mean, the list goes on. 68 00:04:04,167 --> 00:04:07,887 Speaker 3: The anger and distress in the atmosphere right now is palpable. 69 00:04:08,607 --> 00:04:11,287 Speaker 3: Following world to there were peace treaties and the UN 70 00:04:11,367 --> 00:04:14,327 Speaker 3: was formed and the Geneva Conventions set up laws of war. 71 00:04:14,887 --> 00:04:18,527 Speaker 3: And to sit inside our homes today and watch as 72 00:04:18,567 --> 00:04:22,727 Speaker 3: displaced people are killed, this is the stuff of nightmares. 73 00:04:23,487 --> 00:04:23,807 Speaker 1: Holly. 74 00:04:23,807 --> 00:04:26,527 Speaker 3: There was even a shift at the ICC last week, 75 00:04:26,607 --> 00:04:27,567 Speaker 3: Wasn't there There was? 76 00:04:27,647 --> 00:04:30,847 Speaker 2: So that's the International Criminal Court, right, And what they 77 00:04:30,927 --> 00:04:35,327 Speaker 2: do is they investigate and lay charges on major issues 78 00:04:35,327 --> 00:04:39,287 Speaker 2: of international concern, right, so think major acts of terrorism, 79 00:04:39,607 --> 00:04:43,487 Speaker 2: war crimes and what they call crimes against humanity and 80 00:04:43,527 --> 00:04:45,327 Speaker 2: what they did last week, and it actually shocked a 81 00:04:45,327 --> 00:04:48,167 Speaker 2: lot of people because everybody's been watching this conflict rage 82 00:04:48,167 --> 00:04:52,007 Speaker 2: now for seven months, and every now and again things 83 00:04:52,247 --> 00:04:54,487 Speaker 2: get so horrific as they have this week that it 84 00:04:54,567 --> 00:04:58,847 Speaker 2: sort of spikes through all the other news stories around 85 00:04:58,927 --> 00:05:01,567 Speaker 2: all other kinds of consciousness, and everybody saying, how can 86 00:05:01,607 --> 00:05:04,167 Speaker 2: this still be happening? And how can nobody be stopping it? 87 00:05:04,327 --> 00:05:05,447 Speaker 1: And a lot of. 88 00:05:05,447 --> 00:05:07,727 Speaker 2: Levers have been pulled to try to bring around a 89 00:05:07,727 --> 00:05:09,847 Speaker 2: ceasefire and to try and stop it, and one of 90 00:05:09,847 --> 00:05:12,487 Speaker 2: them was what the International Criminal Court did. So after 91 00:05:12,527 --> 00:05:16,367 Speaker 2: an investigation last week, they issued warrants so literally like 92 00:05:16,447 --> 00:05:18,567 Speaker 2: warrants for arrest. I mean, it's a little more complicated 93 00:05:18,607 --> 00:05:20,447 Speaker 2: than that, but that's kind of how it works. For 94 00:05:20,607 --> 00:05:24,927 Speaker 2: three Hamas leaders in Gaza and Qatar over October the seventh. 95 00:05:25,327 --> 00:05:27,727 Speaker 2: The charges that they laid for the crimes that they 96 00:05:28,087 --> 00:05:32,487 Speaker 2: want those three people arrested on are crimes against humanity, 97 00:05:32,567 --> 00:05:38,407 Speaker 2: including extermination, murder, hostage taking, rape and torture. The thing 98 00:05:38,407 --> 00:05:41,407 Speaker 2: that shocked a lot of people is they also charged 99 00:05:41,687 --> 00:05:45,967 Speaker 2: Netanyahu and his defense minister, a guy called Yohav Galant. 100 00:05:46,727 --> 00:05:49,367 Speaker 2: They charged them with crimes that include the starvation of 101 00:05:49,407 --> 00:05:53,647 Speaker 2: civilians of a weapon of war, murder, extermination, and intentional 102 00:05:53,647 --> 00:05:57,247 Speaker 2: attacks on civilians. Obviously, it's international law and its complex, 103 00:05:57,287 --> 00:05:59,887 Speaker 2: but in theory there's sort of a warrant out for 104 00:06:00,047 --> 00:06:03,447 Speaker 2: Netanyahu and these other people that if he entered a 105 00:06:03,487 --> 00:06:06,367 Speaker 2: member state of the ICC, like the UK, for example, 106 00:06:06,487 --> 00:06:08,847 Speaker 2: he would have to be arrested. There was a lot 107 00:06:08,847 --> 00:06:11,087 Speaker 2: of fury about that in Israel because they were saying, 108 00:06:11,087 --> 00:06:13,607 Speaker 2: this is false equivalence. You're putting us in the same 109 00:06:13,647 --> 00:06:17,487 Speaker 2: bucket as the terrorist organization HAMSS. That's not actually true 110 00:06:17,567 --> 00:06:20,767 Speaker 2: because the charges are different, the charges are separate. What 111 00:06:20,927 --> 00:06:23,487 Speaker 2: the International Criminal Court was trying to do is pull 112 00:06:23,527 --> 00:06:26,247 Speaker 2: one of these levers to kind of get I mean 113 00:06:26,327 --> 00:06:28,207 Speaker 2: a really flippant way of saying, is like the grown 114 00:06:28,287 --> 00:06:31,447 Speaker 2: ups in the room, to take this more and more seriously. 115 00:06:32,207 --> 00:06:34,967 Speaker 2: And it felt like some sympathy was swinging to Netanyahu then, 116 00:06:35,007 --> 00:06:37,007 Speaker 2: because a lot of people who have any skin in 117 00:06:37,047 --> 00:06:39,527 Speaker 2: the game were saying, come on, you can't do that. 118 00:06:40,087 --> 00:06:43,287 Speaker 2: What's happened in Rougher this week has upended all that 119 00:06:43,367 --> 00:06:47,047 Speaker 2: again because the ICC and the ICJ, and the ICJ 120 00:06:47,247 --> 00:06:49,047 Speaker 2: is like a court that deals with states and the 121 00:06:49,207 --> 00:06:52,407 Speaker 2: ICC deals with individuals. But either way, they're trying to 122 00:06:52,487 --> 00:06:55,327 Speaker 2: step in and say we're laying charges we're doing all 123 00:06:55,327 --> 00:06:57,167 Speaker 2: these different things. There are emotions being passed at the 124 00:06:57,247 --> 00:06:59,607 Speaker 2: un and nothing is working. And I think for a 125 00:06:59,607 --> 00:07:03,247 Speaker 2: lot of people, and I would say maybe particularly young 126 00:07:03,287 --> 00:07:05,247 Speaker 2: people who are kind of watching all this happen and 127 00:07:05,327 --> 00:07:08,007 Speaker 2: getting to grips with how the world works, They're like, 128 00:07:08,087 --> 00:07:12,127 Speaker 2: how can I be seeing this unrelenting horror on my phone, 129 00:07:12,247 --> 00:07:15,687 Speaker 2: on my TV constantly in my life and nobody is 130 00:07:15,767 --> 00:07:16,967 Speaker 2: stepping in to stop it. 131 00:07:17,767 --> 00:07:21,447 Speaker 3: We're hearing out louders say that this has fundamentally changed them. 132 00:07:21,567 --> 00:07:24,967 Speaker 3: I really agree with that assessment. I think seeing some 133 00:07:25,007 --> 00:07:28,927 Speaker 3: of the images, hearing the stories, the sense that there 134 00:07:29,087 --> 00:07:33,487 Speaker 3: is no world order that you can do this after 135 00:07:33,487 --> 00:07:35,647 Speaker 3: the horrors of the twentieth century, that this can be 136 00:07:35,727 --> 00:07:38,687 Speaker 3: done by a country that, as you say, is allied 137 00:07:38,967 --> 00:07:41,847 Speaker 3: with the West is very hard to reconcile. I don't 138 00:07:41,847 --> 00:07:45,127 Speaker 3: think that any of us can grasp the despair of 139 00:07:45,207 --> 00:07:48,247 Speaker 3: living in Palestine right now, what that must be like. 140 00:07:48,527 --> 00:07:51,767 Speaker 5: When you go on social media, it's very different when 141 00:07:51,767 --> 00:07:54,447 Speaker 5: you're talking to people in real life. When you're talking 142 00:07:54,487 --> 00:07:57,207 Speaker 5: to people in real life, the mood is grief and 143 00:07:57,287 --> 00:08:01,527 Speaker 5: devastation and shock and despair and all of those things. 144 00:08:02,887 --> 00:08:05,127 Speaker 5: On social media. There is a huge amount of anger, 145 00:08:05,207 --> 00:08:08,327 Speaker 5: and I also understand that. I understand that when people 146 00:08:08,367 --> 00:08:13,007 Speaker 5: feel helpless and they feel devastated and they're grieving, anger 147 00:08:13,087 --> 00:08:15,887 Speaker 5: is on. It's a very normal human reaction to what 148 00:08:15,927 --> 00:08:20,047 Speaker 5: we're seeing. But it can also fool you into believing 149 00:08:20,047 --> 00:08:22,887 Speaker 5: that you are doing something with your anger. And I'm 150 00:08:22,887 --> 00:08:27,007 Speaker 5: not saying there's not a place for anger or that anger. 151 00:08:26,727 --> 00:08:27,567 Speaker 1: Is not appropriate. 152 00:08:27,687 --> 00:08:31,127 Speaker 5: At the outrageous things that we're seeing in the devastating. 153 00:08:30,447 --> 00:08:32,327 Speaker 3: Footage, I don't think we know where to put it. 154 00:08:32,487 --> 00:08:34,687 Speaker 1: No, it's like, what do we do with this? 155 00:08:34,767 --> 00:08:37,247 Speaker 5: What do we do with these images? Is sharing them 156 00:08:37,287 --> 00:08:38,967 Speaker 5: going to help? How is it going to help? 157 00:08:39,087 --> 00:08:39,167 Speaker 3: Like? 158 00:08:39,727 --> 00:08:42,287 Speaker 5: What can we in Australia do. 159 00:08:42,847 --> 00:08:44,447 Speaker 3: I've thought about this a lot, and I've had some 160 00:08:44,487 --> 00:08:49,887 Speaker 3: really productive conversations about putting pressure on politicians. There's a 161 00:08:49,927 --> 00:08:53,367 Speaker 3: little bit of a lack of transparency about weapon manufacturing 162 00:08:53,447 --> 00:08:55,727 Speaker 3: and how much Australia has to do with that, and 163 00:08:55,767 --> 00:08:58,927 Speaker 3: I think that's something that's important. I think Australia pulling 164 00:08:58,927 --> 00:09:01,567 Speaker 3: every lever that they can is something that when you 165 00:09:01,607 --> 00:09:04,407 Speaker 3: get a ground swell of you know, I mean, and 166 00:09:04,647 --> 00:09:07,327 Speaker 3: protest is demonstrating like not in our name. This is 167 00:09:07,367 --> 00:09:10,687 Speaker 3: not something that any of us. Yeah, and important, you. 168 00:09:10,647 --> 00:09:14,047 Speaker 5: Know, I have to say as a Jewish woman, there's 169 00:09:14,167 --> 00:09:19,167 Speaker 5: this idea among some people that if you're Jewish, or 170 00:09:19,207 --> 00:09:21,447 Speaker 5: if you believe in the right of Israel to exist, 171 00:09:22,247 --> 00:09:24,207 Speaker 5: or if you object to people saying from the River 172 00:09:24,247 --> 00:09:27,007 Speaker 5: to the sea, you don't care that you are not 173 00:09:27,087 --> 00:09:30,447 Speaker 5: affected by these images, that you are fine with what's 174 00:09:30,447 --> 00:09:32,647 Speaker 5: happening in Rafa, or that you cheer it on, or 175 00:09:33,007 --> 00:09:39,447 Speaker 5: good God. And I just find that so extraordinary and bizarre, 176 00:09:39,727 --> 00:09:43,167 Speaker 5: the idea that you could only be allowed to care 177 00:09:43,207 --> 00:09:46,647 Speaker 5: about one group of people and about one type of suffering, 178 00:09:46,807 --> 00:09:49,967 Speaker 5: and the suffering of only certain. 179 00:09:49,647 --> 00:09:51,127 Speaker 1: People but not other people. 180 00:09:52,007 --> 00:09:55,727 Speaker 5: I've been deeply shocked by that. I've never seen a 181 00:09:55,847 --> 00:09:58,287 Speaker 5: story like that. And of course, you know, there was 182 00:09:58,327 --> 00:09:59,807 Speaker 5: a poll that came out last week that said something 183 00:09:59,887 --> 00:10:05,447 Speaker 5: like seventy five of Australians have empathy for both Palestinians 184 00:10:05,767 --> 00:10:10,047 Speaker 5: and Israelis because they can see that is Israeli people 185 00:10:10,447 --> 00:10:13,847 Speaker 5: and what happened on October seventh is not the same 186 00:10:14,687 --> 00:10:18,167 Speaker 5: as what the Israeli government is doing and what has 187 00:10:18,167 --> 00:10:21,767 Speaker 5: happened in Rafa. I don't know anyone who's watching what's 188 00:10:21,807 --> 00:10:25,527 Speaker 5: happening in Rafa, no matter what their religion and what 189 00:10:25,647 --> 00:10:29,287 Speaker 5: their belief about Israel, and is not devastated by it. 190 00:10:30,447 --> 00:10:34,047 Speaker 2: There's no one braver in my mind than the AID workers, 191 00:10:34,047 --> 00:10:37,447 Speaker 2: the organizations who are continuing to try and get some 192 00:10:37,807 --> 00:10:41,527 Speaker 2: practical help on the ground, which can be. 193 00:10:41,807 --> 00:10:43,687 Speaker 3: As we've seen, it's a lethal decisions. 194 00:10:43,727 --> 00:10:46,567 Speaker 2: One of the stories I found very affecting but had 195 00:10:46,567 --> 00:10:50,367 Speaker 2: a kind of almost hopeful turn this week was actually 196 00:10:50,407 --> 00:10:53,287 Speaker 2: about the problems of getting aids through in some instances, 197 00:10:53,367 --> 00:10:56,687 Speaker 2: because one of the crossings that's recently been opened for 198 00:10:56,807 --> 00:11:00,327 Speaker 2: AID convoys on the West Bank in Israel was getting 199 00:11:00,327 --> 00:11:03,567 Speaker 2: attacked by extremists who are runsacking and burning the AID 200 00:11:03,647 --> 00:11:05,607 Speaker 2: trucks to try and stop the AID from getting through, 201 00:11:05,647 --> 00:11:10,247 Speaker 2: which is devastating right. But then an organization of mostly 202 00:11:10,367 --> 00:11:14,967 Speaker 2: young Jewish and Arab peace activists have formed a humanitarian 203 00:11:15,047 --> 00:11:20,127 Speaker 2: guard there to get there to stop those abhorrent attacks 204 00:11:20,207 --> 00:11:22,767 Speaker 2: and get the AID through. They're called Standing Together. I 205 00:11:22,847 --> 00:11:25,527 Speaker 2: urge anyone to follow them on social there. They're remarkable. 206 00:11:26,007 --> 00:11:28,327 Speaker 2: But I just want to say, because it isn't simple. 207 00:11:28,447 --> 00:11:30,807 Speaker 2: We've been talking on this show and providing links to 208 00:11:30,807 --> 00:11:33,607 Speaker 2: AID organizations, it isn't simple because there is no more 209 00:11:33,687 --> 00:11:37,087 Speaker 2: dangerous place in the world right now than Gaza, So 210 00:11:37,167 --> 00:11:39,287 Speaker 2: it is not as simple as send you money and 211 00:11:39,327 --> 00:11:41,927 Speaker 2: someone will get a meal. But there are some unbelievably 212 00:11:41,927 --> 00:11:44,047 Speaker 2: brave organizations. We're going to shout a couple of them 213 00:11:44,047 --> 00:11:47,007 Speaker 2: out and put them in the show notes you mentioned 214 00:11:47,047 --> 00:11:50,567 Speaker 2: before Jesse Doctors without Borders, whose doctors on the ground 215 00:11:50,647 --> 00:11:54,447 Speaker 2: are obviously beyond exhausted and beyond capacity, are working in 216 00:11:54,527 --> 00:11:58,887 Speaker 2: what's left of the hospitals and health organizations all over Gaza. 217 00:11:59,687 --> 00:12:03,927 Speaker 2: There's an incredible organization called the World's Central Kitchen, and 218 00:12:03,927 --> 00:12:07,207 Speaker 2: people might have heard of it because seven of their 219 00:12:07,287 --> 00:12:10,767 Speaker 2: workers were killed in an IDEA strike a few months 220 00:12:10,767 --> 00:12:12,847 Speaker 2: ago and they had to suspend operations and what they 221 00:12:12,887 --> 00:12:14,647 Speaker 2: do and this kind of sounds a bit strange when 222 00:12:14,647 --> 00:12:17,407 Speaker 2: you first hear about it. They're an organization of volunteer 223 00:12:17,567 --> 00:12:20,207 Speaker 2: chefs and they go into war zones all over the 224 00:12:20,207 --> 00:12:22,607 Speaker 2: world and they work with local people and local cooks. 225 00:12:22,607 --> 00:12:22,727 Speaker 5: There. 226 00:12:22,767 --> 00:12:25,087 Speaker 2: They're literally set up camp kitchens. They know exactly how 227 00:12:25,087 --> 00:12:28,527 Speaker 2: to do it, exactly what's needed, you know, massive pots 228 00:12:28,567 --> 00:12:30,367 Speaker 2: sort of the containers that need to go, the sort 229 00:12:30,407 --> 00:12:32,607 Speaker 2: of food local people want, to eat and they cook 230 00:12:32,607 --> 00:12:35,167 Speaker 2: it and they distribute it and they've restarted their operations 231 00:12:35,167 --> 00:12:39,287 Speaker 2: in Gaza now again an incredible organization. Also Plan International, 232 00:12:39,367 --> 00:12:42,687 Speaker 2: which focuses on children, particularly girls, UNICEF, which is the 233 00:12:42,807 --> 00:12:45,367 Speaker 2: un charity that gets aided to kids. We're going to 234 00:12:45,447 --> 00:12:47,967 Speaker 2: put links in the show notes. If you are able 235 00:12:48,087 --> 00:12:51,327 Speaker 2: to make a donation to any of these organizations, then 236 00:12:51,447 --> 00:12:52,407 Speaker 2: I urge you to do so. 237 00:12:52,807 --> 00:12:55,327 Speaker 5: This is a fast moving story, so to keep across 238 00:12:55,327 --> 00:12:58,167 Speaker 5: this news, please tune into our twice daily news podcast, 239 00:12:58,167 --> 00:13:00,447 Speaker 5: The Quickie, for the latest information. 240 00:13:00,847 --> 00:13:02,087 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment. 241 00:13:17,247 --> 00:13:19,127 Speaker 1: You got that, Ohio, skibbity riz? 242 00:13:19,447 --> 00:13:20,327 Speaker 2: What the sigma? 243 00:13:20,407 --> 00:13:21,087 Speaker 1: What does it mean? 244 00:13:21,167 --> 00:13:22,367 Speaker 2: And why are kids saying it? 245 00:13:22,687 --> 00:13:26,127 Speaker 5: In case you missed it, Generation Alpha, who are people 246 00:13:26,207 --> 00:13:30,287 Speaker 5: younger than fourteen, have made up some new words. Ohio, 247 00:13:30,727 --> 00:13:33,367 Speaker 5: get sigma, rizzler and skibbity toilet. 248 00:13:33,687 --> 00:13:35,847 Speaker 3: I feel like I might know what rizzler means. 249 00:13:36,087 --> 00:13:36,727 Speaker 1: What's rizzler? 250 00:13:36,807 --> 00:13:38,887 Speaker 3: I feel like it could be related to riz, which 251 00:13:38,887 --> 00:13:41,687 Speaker 3: we learned about last year, which is krisma, and we 252 00:13:41,727 --> 00:13:43,847 Speaker 3: all decided I didn't have it, which I still feel 253 00:13:43,847 --> 00:13:48,887 Speaker 3: weter you don't think, but apparently I do have skibberty toilet. 254 00:13:49,007 --> 00:13:51,127 Speaker 5: So I don't know if I'm a rizzler or not. 255 00:13:51,487 --> 00:13:55,287 Speaker 5: Now you may be confused, we all have been. Let's 256 00:13:55,287 --> 00:13:57,567 Speaker 5: just talk about jen Alpha for a while. Examples are 257 00:13:57,807 --> 00:14:00,567 Speaker 5: Blue Ivy, who is the daughter of Beyond Same jay Z, 258 00:14:01,407 --> 00:14:04,207 Speaker 5: Kim Kardashian, and Kanye West's eldest daughter, Northwest. 259 00:14:04,367 --> 00:14:05,647 Speaker 3: I say a lot of her tiktoks. 260 00:14:05,807 --> 00:14:07,807 Speaker 5: As I said, the oldest of this generation of fourteen 261 00:14:07,847 --> 00:14:10,247 Speaker 5: and they were born in the years to twenty ten. 262 00:14:10,767 --> 00:14:13,967 Speaker 5: And kids their age are making trends and creating slang 263 00:14:14,047 --> 00:14:14,527 Speaker 5: terms online. 264 00:14:14,567 --> 00:14:15,367 Speaker 1: We don't know what they mean. 265 00:14:15,927 --> 00:14:20,207 Speaker 5: I just texted my daughter, who is eighteen, skibbity toilet. 266 00:14:21,047 --> 00:14:24,687 Speaker 5: She texted back, what is this? And then she said 267 00:14:25,007 --> 00:14:28,047 Speaker 5: her girlfriend says, you are not woke. Me are just strange. 268 00:14:28,287 --> 00:14:32,167 Speaker 2: I live with two alphas, obviously my kids are alpha's. 269 00:14:32,487 --> 00:14:35,847 Speaker 2: And I asked Matilda yesterday, my daughter, fourteen year old daughter, 270 00:14:36,087 --> 00:14:39,487 Speaker 2: what skibbitty toilet meant? And she was so mortified that 271 00:14:39,567 --> 00:14:41,927 Speaker 2: I even asked the question. She just immediately got on 272 00:14:41,967 --> 00:14:43,487 Speaker 2: her phone and sent a voice note to a front 273 00:14:43,487 --> 00:14:45,407 Speaker 2: This is how they carry on. She got a voice 274 00:14:45,447 --> 00:14:47,647 Speaker 2: note to a friend being like, mom, just asked me, 275 00:14:47,687 --> 00:14:48,887 Speaker 2: and she said, you're not going to say it. 276 00:14:49,007 --> 00:14:50,647 Speaker 1: You're gonna say it on the show? Are you're not 277 00:14:50,687 --> 00:14:51,287 Speaker 1: going to say it? 278 00:14:51,647 --> 00:14:55,607 Speaker 2: And then I asked Billy, who's eleven, and he said, 279 00:14:55,807 --> 00:14:58,447 Speaker 2: it doesn't really mean anything, you just like say it. 280 00:14:58,687 --> 00:15:01,687 Speaker 2: He's just say and I was like, I don't stand. 281 00:15:01,727 --> 00:15:03,487 Speaker 5: How do we explain to them? They don't know how language? 282 00:15:03,487 --> 00:15:05,647 Speaker 5: Were okay, well, not everyone agrees on its meaning. 283 00:15:05,647 --> 00:15:06,527 Speaker 1: It is disputed. 284 00:15:06,647 --> 00:15:09,967 Speaker 5: It originated from the Russian rave band Big. 285 00:15:09,967 --> 00:15:12,607 Speaker 3: See this is the problem are you talking about? 286 00:15:12,807 --> 00:15:14,687 Speaker 1: A remix was made of the song. 287 00:15:14,527 --> 00:15:16,247 Speaker 3: A remix of what by whom? 288 00:15:16,527 --> 00:15:17,367 Speaker 1: Little Big song? 289 00:15:18,607 --> 00:15:20,687 Speaker 5: A remix was made of the song and then repurposed 290 00:15:20,727 --> 00:15:24,647 Speaker 5: on YouTube by the channel de fuck Boom. Okay, okay, 291 00:15:25,247 --> 00:15:28,767 Speaker 5: too many steps toilet in the clip, I'm getting to 292 00:15:28,847 --> 00:15:30,847 Speaker 5: the good part. In the clip, it shows a head 293 00:15:30,847 --> 00:15:34,367 Speaker 5: in a toilet singing a song. It doesn't really mean anything. 294 00:15:34,367 --> 00:15:35,487 Speaker 5: It's just an inside joke. 295 00:15:35,487 --> 00:15:37,527 Speaker 2: Apparently I tried to get them to use it in 296 00:15:37,527 --> 00:15:38,767 Speaker 2: the sentence you. 297 00:15:38,767 --> 00:15:40,687 Speaker 5: Know that I'm going to be saying it constantly and 298 00:15:40,727 --> 00:15:43,007 Speaker 5: they will never use it again. What's my new Kozi lips? 299 00:15:43,527 --> 00:15:47,607 Speaker 5: People say, ohio, and that's sort of short for only 300 00:15:47,647 --> 00:15:50,687 Speaker 5: in Ohio, which means something that's weird or strange or creepy, 301 00:15:50,807 --> 00:15:54,567 Speaker 5: like us using the phrase skippy toilet. So it's an 302 00:15:54,567 --> 00:15:57,207 Speaker 5: insult because Ohio is apparently considered to be a bit 303 00:15:57,247 --> 00:15:57,887 Speaker 5: of a weird place. 304 00:15:58,007 --> 00:15:59,647 Speaker 3: I feels offensive to Ohio and. 305 00:16:00,287 --> 00:16:03,487 Speaker 5: Get or gee it or get get. I don't know 306 00:16:03,487 --> 00:16:09,007 Speaker 5: it means big bottom. Sigma is widely known as the 307 00:16:09,047 --> 00:16:13,687 Speaker 5: a teenth letter of the Green alphabet of It, the 308 00:16:13,767 --> 00:16:16,727 Speaker 5: Greek alphabet, the alphabet that the dead alphas is not 309 00:16:16,767 --> 00:16:21,127 Speaker 5: widely known by me, but whatever. Apparently it means a 310 00:16:21,167 --> 00:16:24,167 Speaker 5: man who is popular and dominant, and they may also 311 00:16:24,207 --> 00:16:25,167 Speaker 5: have traditional values. 312 00:16:25,207 --> 00:16:28,167 Speaker 2: That typical becomes faf as sexist. I think sigma has 313 00:16:28,247 --> 00:16:31,727 Speaker 2: come out of the manisphere. But I think it also means. 314 00:16:31,567 --> 00:16:32,127 Speaker 1: Kind of cool. 315 00:16:32,887 --> 00:16:33,727 Speaker 3: What's an alphabet? 316 00:16:33,847 --> 00:16:36,047 Speaker 2: I don't think sigmas have to be like musty. 317 00:16:36,127 --> 00:16:37,127 Speaker 1: Okay, all right? 318 00:16:37,407 --> 00:16:40,447 Speaker 5: Oh. A rizzler is a derivative of the word charisma, 319 00:16:40,567 --> 00:16:43,047 Speaker 5: but it means someone who is a pro at flirting 320 00:16:43,087 --> 00:16:45,447 Speaker 5: with people or has good game, so it actually has 321 00:16:45,487 --> 00:16:49,847 Speaker 5: sexual connotations more whereas just saying that someone's got riz 322 00:16:49,967 --> 00:16:52,607 Speaker 5: is not about sex, it's about their personality. 323 00:16:52,607 --> 00:16:54,767 Speaker 3: Fourteen none of them have good game. None of them 324 00:16:54,767 --> 00:17:01,367 Speaker 3: are rizzlers. Yeah, they're walking around going skibbty divity toilet 325 00:17:01,767 --> 00:17:02,487 Speaker 3: it not game. 326 00:17:03,167 --> 00:17:06,047 Speaker 2: Okay, I need to clear up another Internet problem for 327 00:17:06,127 --> 00:17:08,567 Speaker 2: you in the middle of this very tumultuous time that 328 00:17:08,607 --> 00:17:11,047 Speaker 2: we're living in. For a few days last week, all 329 00:17:11,047 --> 00:17:14,287 Speaker 2: of the Internet's wrath was directed at one man, and 330 00:17:14,327 --> 00:17:17,567 Speaker 2: he was a Brazilian husband who took his children to 331 00:17:17,647 --> 00:17:21,367 Speaker 2: watch their mother run a race and allowed the kids 332 00:17:21,367 --> 00:17:22,687 Speaker 2: to run onto the road. 333 00:17:22,767 --> 00:17:25,447 Speaker 1: Did you see this? I did this? Poor man got canceled. 334 00:17:25,447 --> 00:17:27,567 Speaker 5: I was very confused because you know when you see 335 00:17:27,607 --> 00:17:30,367 Speaker 5: the Internet's angry about something and you're like, Okay, I 336 00:17:30,487 --> 00:17:34,087 Speaker 5: better get across this. And I'm like, right, so is 337 00:17:34,127 --> 00:17:36,247 Speaker 5: it a heart woman clip about a woman running across 338 00:17:36,247 --> 00:17:39,487 Speaker 5: a finish line? And I'm like, oh no, someone's being canceled. 339 00:17:39,807 --> 00:17:42,207 Speaker 5: It's not a heart woman clip about a woman completing 340 00:17:42,207 --> 00:17:46,447 Speaker 5: a marathon. It's a cancelation clip about a man behaving badly. 341 00:17:46,527 --> 00:17:47,247 Speaker 1: What did he do? 342 00:17:47,607 --> 00:17:49,607 Speaker 2: What he did and what the world thinks he did 343 00:17:49,927 --> 00:17:50,887 Speaker 2: two different things? 344 00:17:51,287 --> 00:17:51,887 Speaker 1: Ll maybe not. 345 00:17:52,407 --> 00:17:55,607 Speaker 2: So reason everybody got upset is because this woman who 346 00:17:55,647 --> 00:17:57,567 Speaker 2: a half marathon is a long way and she'd obviously 347 00:17:57,647 --> 00:17:59,327 Speaker 2: trained very hard and she was winning. 348 00:17:59,727 --> 00:18:00,447 Speaker 1: And just as she. 349 00:18:00,447 --> 00:18:03,847 Speaker 2: Gets to the line, he like ushers the children into 350 00:18:03,887 --> 00:18:06,847 Speaker 2: her path and she swerves around them like she doesn't stop. 351 00:18:06,927 --> 00:18:09,607 Speaker 2: She swerves around them to finish across the world and 352 00:18:09,647 --> 00:18:10,567 Speaker 2: win her marathon. 353 00:18:11,047 --> 00:18:13,287 Speaker 3: Yay, it nearly cost her the first place. 354 00:18:13,087 --> 00:18:17,647 Speaker 2: And everybody said, how typical that that man was so 355 00:18:17,767 --> 00:18:20,527 Speaker 2: overlooking after his own children for an hour and forty minutes. 356 00:18:20,607 --> 00:18:22,607 Speaker 1: It was quite funny because she had to run around them. 357 00:18:22,647 --> 00:18:24,887 Speaker 2: Yes, she like swerved, she went around them like that 358 00:18:24,887 --> 00:18:27,887 Speaker 2: that he couldn't wait to hand them back. And they said, 359 00:18:27,927 --> 00:18:29,807 Speaker 2: this is so typical of a man stepping on a 360 00:18:29,847 --> 00:18:31,527 Speaker 2: woman's achievement. This is da da da da da. 361 00:18:31,687 --> 00:18:32,847 Speaker 1: Right, shut up that. 362 00:18:33,007 --> 00:18:34,887 Speaker 2: Well know, I know, I'm going to defend that in 363 00:18:34,927 --> 00:18:37,927 Speaker 2: a minute. But then what happened is at the weekend, 364 00:18:38,367 --> 00:18:40,567 Speaker 2: the woman and the man came out and she's called 365 00:18:40,807 --> 00:18:46,087 Speaker 2: Luciana Lorenzo and he's called Pedro Lorenzo. And Luciana cleared 366 00:18:46,127 --> 00:18:48,207 Speaker 2: up that what Pedro had done was exactly what she'd 367 00:18:48,247 --> 00:18:50,767 Speaker 2: asked him to do, and that they'd agreed together. She said, 368 00:18:50,767 --> 00:18:52,767 Speaker 2: this was a fun well not a fun run, but 369 00:18:52,807 --> 00:18:55,127 Speaker 2: it was a race in her hometown. 370 00:18:54,607 --> 00:18:55,567 Speaker 1: And nothing fun about him. 371 00:18:55,767 --> 00:18:58,127 Speaker 2: I thought it would be fun for the girls to 372 00:18:58,127 --> 00:19:00,687 Speaker 2: come and see her do it, like how inspirational. But 373 00:19:00,727 --> 00:19:02,407 Speaker 2: the thing is is she didn't think she was going 374 00:19:02,487 --> 00:19:04,407 Speaker 2: to win, right, She just thought she was going to 375 00:19:04,487 --> 00:19:07,167 Speaker 2: run it. And so she said to Pedro, bring the 376 00:19:07,167 --> 00:19:10,567 Speaker 2: girls down stand near the finish line, and when I passed, 377 00:19:10,567 --> 00:19:13,287 Speaker 2: following instruction, the kids can join and we might all 378 00:19:13,367 --> 00:19:16,327 Speaker 2: run over the finish line together. But then what happened 379 00:19:16,367 --> 00:19:18,967 Speaker 2: is Luciana was a much better runner than she even 380 00:19:19,007 --> 00:19:21,287 Speaker 2: thought she was, and she was in first place and 381 00:19:21,327 --> 00:19:23,247 Speaker 2: she was going to win, and then her husband doushed 382 00:19:23,327 --> 00:19:24,487 Speaker 2: the kids in front of her, and she was like, 383 00:19:24,567 --> 00:19:25,727 Speaker 2: get those fuckers out. 384 00:19:25,607 --> 00:19:27,807 Speaker 1: Of the way. I'm gonna win my race. 385 00:19:28,207 --> 00:19:31,047 Speaker 2: So she said, oh. Then when I realized I was 386 00:19:31,087 --> 00:19:33,807 Speaker 2: going to win, I saw the kids and I was like, no, 387 00:19:33,967 --> 00:19:36,167 Speaker 2: can't do family time. Now I'm going to cross the line, 388 00:19:36,207 --> 00:19:39,047 Speaker 2: and she said to the kids, she said, the kids 389 00:19:39,087 --> 00:19:40,607 Speaker 2: were fine and happy and not upset at all. 390 00:19:40,647 --> 00:19:42,407 Speaker 1: They're proud and excited. So that's good. 391 00:19:42,447 --> 00:19:45,407 Speaker 2: But what I want to say is, yes, it's true 392 00:19:45,407 --> 00:19:47,167 Speaker 2: that the Internet got very upset with this man for 393 00:19:47,207 --> 00:19:50,127 Speaker 2: no reason, But why did we all make that assumption. 394 00:19:50,447 --> 00:19:53,207 Speaker 2: I think that's because we've all been there. 395 00:19:53,607 --> 00:19:57,487 Speaker 3: Yes, this is a classic tale of the Internet finding 396 00:19:57,647 --> 00:20:00,567 Speaker 3: something that helps them tell a specific story they would 397 00:20:00,607 --> 00:20:01,487 Speaker 3: like to tell today. 398 00:20:01,447 --> 00:20:02,047 Speaker 4: Yes, and it. 399 00:20:02,007 --> 00:20:05,167 Speaker 3: Actually wasn't about the video and it wasn't about the facts. 400 00:20:05,487 --> 00:20:08,527 Speaker 1: Did the Internet apologize it wasn't about us? 401 00:20:08,767 --> 00:20:10,887 Speaker 3: And you know what I reckon that A really important 402 00:20:10,927 --> 00:20:14,447 Speaker 3: piece of context was the Harrison Butker graduation speech that 403 00:20:14,447 --> 00:20:15,687 Speaker 3: had been just the week before. 404 00:20:16,007 --> 00:20:17,327 Speaker 1: We are in a fainting mood. 405 00:20:17,607 --> 00:20:21,767 Speaker 3: We were rile, we were pissed. We were like, women 406 00:20:21,807 --> 00:20:24,207 Speaker 3: can't have anything even when we graduate. It's just like 407 00:20:24,607 --> 00:20:27,287 Speaker 3: your greatest joy is going to be your kids and 408 00:20:27,287 --> 00:20:29,407 Speaker 3: your husband and being a wife and a mother. And 409 00:20:29,447 --> 00:20:32,047 Speaker 3: then we see a woman running to a finish line 410 00:20:32,127 --> 00:20:35,047 Speaker 3: and it's like the husband and the children descend and 411 00:20:35,087 --> 00:20:38,527 Speaker 3: it's like that woman should kick those people out of 412 00:20:38,527 --> 00:20:40,167 Speaker 3: the way to have her moment of glory. 413 00:20:40,247 --> 00:20:42,727 Speaker 5: It's like, back off, this isn't about you. Yes, that 414 00:20:42,847 --> 00:20:45,047 Speaker 5: was a bit like there are a lot of videos 415 00:20:45,367 --> 00:20:50,127 Speaker 5: when Taylor's we've started her concert about people proposing. During 416 00:20:50,207 --> 00:20:53,127 Speaker 5: the song love story, like you know, marry me Juliet 417 00:20:53,207 --> 00:20:55,767 Speaker 5: is the line, and that was the moment in that 418 00:20:55,967 --> 00:20:58,567 Speaker 5: song that a lot of people dropped to one knee. 419 00:20:58,567 --> 00:21:00,167 Speaker 5: That's if you're going to propose, you're going to do 420 00:21:00,207 --> 00:21:03,167 Speaker 5: it then. And so that's kind of been happening all 421 00:21:03,207 --> 00:21:05,247 Speaker 5: over the tour and a lot of people were really 422 00:21:05,487 --> 00:21:08,807 Speaker 5: pushed back about it. And it started with Taffy Bredessa 423 00:21:08,887 --> 00:21:12,847 Speaker 5: akne amazing piece about being at a Taylor Swift concert 424 00:21:13,167 --> 00:21:16,127 Speaker 5: and she said, and she acknowledged that she was projecting, 425 00:21:16,167 --> 00:21:18,447 Speaker 5: but a lot of Swift he spoke about this that 426 00:21:18,527 --> 00:21:22,447 Speaker 5: she took something that belonged to that woman, which is 427 00:21:22,487 --> 00:21:27,447 Speaker 5: that song meaning something to her? And he imposed himself, honest. 428 00:21:27,247 --> 00:21:29,687 Speaker 2: That's exactly what people thought were happening in this video, 429 00:21:29,807 --> 00:21:32,247 Speaker 2: and they also I think mothers in particular looked at 430 00:21:32,247 --> 00:21:34,367 Speaker 2: it and went, this is like when I just want 431 00:21:34,407 --> 00:21:36,047 Speaker 2: to go to the gym for an hour on a 432 00:21:36,087 --> 00:21:37,847 Speaker 2: Saturday morning and I get all this, when's it my 433 00:21:37,967 --> 00:21:39,887 Speaker 2: turn to have some time off? And it's like when 434 00:21:39,927 --> 00:21:41,327 Speaker 2: you get a promotion and it's all like, what are 435 00:21:41,327 --> 00:21:42,887 Speaker 2: you gonna do about childcare? And when you want to 436 00:21:42,927 --> 00:21:44,207 Speaker 2: go away for a weekend and it's like, well, are 437 00:21:44,247 --> 00:21:46,687 Speaker 2: you going to organize drop off sporting things? 438 00:21:46,687 --> 00:21:47,247 Speaker 1: Who's eating? 439 00:21:47,287 --> 00:21:48,447 Speaker 2: What who's going where like? 440 00:21:48,807 --> 00:21:50,407 Speaker 3: And you're like, I'd like to go for a walk, 441 00:21:50,407 --> 00:21:53,287 Speaker 3: and your husband's like family time. I think your walk 442 00:21:53,367 --> 00:21:54,287 Speaker 3: sound family time. 443 00:21:54,367 --> 00:21:58,767 Speaker 2: Basically, we all projected our shit onto Luciano and Pedro, 444 00:21:58,847 --> 00:22:00,167 Speaker 2: who were actually. 445 00:22:00,087 --> 00:22:02,727 Speaker 5: Doing absolutely fine. Jesseye, I saw you're on the project 446 00:22:02,767 --> 00:22:04,527 Speaker 5: last night. Who was looking after Luna while you were 447 00:22:04,567 --> 00:22:05,487 Speaker 5: gallivanting around? 448 00:22:06,367 --> 00:22:10,287 Speaker 3: Look? I didn't even consider Luna. Oh no, it was 449 00:22:10,367 --> 00:22:15,767 Speaker 3: my husband. Yeah, no, he was babysitting exactly right, So 450 00:22:15,847 --> 00:22:19,207 Speaker 3: that when mummy works it's not a family affair. Luna's 451 00:22:19,207 --> 00:22:20,207 Speaker 3: not invited. 452 00:22:22,127 --> 00:22:25,887 Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday 453 00:22:25,927 --> 00:22:29,967 Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link 454 00:22:30,007 --> 00:22:31,727 Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears 455 00:22:32,007 --> 00:22:34,767 Speaker 2: five days a week, and a huge thank you to 456 00:22:34,927 --> 00:22:39,887 Speaker 2: all our current subscribers. 457 00:22:41,887 --> 00:22:44,967 Speaker 5: Should all workers get onhappiness leave? That is the headline 458 00:22:45,087 --> 00:22:47,527 Speaker 5: on a Guardian story this week that highlighted the policy 459 00:22:47,527 --> 00:22:51,367 Speaker 5: of a Chinese supermarket chain called Pangdong Lie, whose founder 460 00:22:51,487 --> 00:22:55,927 Speaker 5: is offering all employees up to ten days of unhappiness leave. 461 00:22:57,007 --> 00:23:00,207 Speaker 5: According to the South China Morning Post, You Dong Liae 462 00:23:00,367 --> 00:23:03,887 Speaker 5: said at an industry conference, I want every staff member 463 00:23:03,927 --> 00:23:06,527 Speaker 5: to have freedom. Everyone has times when they're not happy, 464 00:23:06,727 --> 00:23:08,887 Speaker 5: So if you're not happy, do not come to work. 465 00:23:09,327 --> 00:23:11,727 Speaker 5: Staff can take unhappy days when they want, in addition 466 00:23:11,807 --> 00:23:16,167 Speaker 5: to normal sick and holiday leave. Entitlements and management cannot refuse, 467 00:23:16,847 --> 00:23:19,047 Speaker 5: so it is in addition to it is so in 468 00:23:19,087 --> 00:23:21,207 Speaker 5: the olden days, if you wanted to take a day 469 00:23:21,247 --> 00:23:24,607 Speaker 5: off work and you weren't seek you would chuck a SICKI. 470 00:23:24,847 --> 00:23:26,927 Speaker 5: I don't know why you would chuck one. That's very Australian, 471 00:23:26,967 --> 00:23:29,287 Speaker 5: but I love that I chucked many a siki from school. 472 00:23:29,367 --> 00:23:31,487 Speaker 5: Learn how to forge my Mum's signature, work to treat. 473 00:23:32,087 --> 00:23:34,367 Speaker 5: But in twenty twenty four, there is a long list 474 00:23:34,527 --> 00:23:37,567 Speaker 5: of leave that employees can take. There's annual leave and 475 00:23:37,607 --> 00:23:41,967 Speaker 5: sick leave, cares leave, parental leave, compassionate and bereavement leave, 476 00:23:42,087 --> 00:23:46,087 Speaker 5: family and domestic violence leave in some organizations, and if 477 00:23:46,127 --> 00:23:48,607 Speaker 5: you've been somewhere a long time, you can also take 478 00:23:48,847 --> 00:23:52,887 Speaker 5: something called long service leave. Some companies also offer extra 479 00:23:52,967 --> 00:23:57,207 Speaker 5: days for menstrual leave. There are days for gender reassignment leave. 480 00:23:57,447 --> 00:23:59,927 Speaker 5: Of course, there's also parental leave. At Mum and Me 481 00:24:00,047 --> 00:24:02,247 Speaker 5: or we offer a day of birthday leave. It is 482 00:24:02,287 --> 00:24:05,087 Speaker 5: called your Mum and me day on your birthday? But 483 00:24:05,127 --> 00:24:07,447 Speaker 5: would you take unhappiness leave Holly? 484 00:24:07,967 --> 00:24:11,367 Speaker 2: Well, do you have to tell everybody that you're unhappy? 485 00:24:11,527 --> 00:24:11,967 Speaker 2: I have to go? 486 00:24:12,447 --> 00:24:12,967 Speaker 1: I don't like. 487 00:24:13,167 --> 00:24:16,287 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, if I'm really unhappy, I don't really want 488 00:24:16,327 --> 00:24:17,607 Speaker 2: to tell everybody because. 489 00:24:17,327 --> 00:24:20,567 Speaker 3: Then your boss feels obligated to say really unhappy about 490 00:24:20,607 --> 00:24:22,247 Speaker 3: and then you've got to tell them, and they don't care, 491 00:24:22,287 --> 00:24:24,087 Speaker 3: and you don't want to tell them, and then what 492 00:24:24,127 --> 00:24:25,327 Speaker 3: are they going to make you feel better? 493 00:24:25,447 --> 00:24:26,807 Speaker 1: Isn't it just called a mental health day? 494 00:24:26,927 --> 00:24:29,207 Speaker 2: Mental health day or a doner day, or whatever we 495 00:24:29,327 --> 00:24:31,767 Speaker 2: might want to call them. I'm fascinated to know if 496 00:24:31,767 --> 00:24:37,447 Speaker 2: we've evolved past sickies, because now culturally we've embraced the 497 00:24:37,527 --> 00:24:41,567 Speaker 2: idea of self care, we've embraced the idea of fighting burnout, 498 00:24:41,647 --> 00:24:44,487 Speaker 2: We've embraced all those things. So now if you're just like, 499 00:24:44,567 --> 00:24:47,727 Speaker 2: I really need a day, is it okay? Or do 500 00:24:47,767 --> 00:24:49,887 Speaker 2: you still have to do things like we used to 501 00:24:49,967 --> 00:24:51,527 Speaker 2: have to do in the old days where the day 502 00:24:51,567 --> 00:24:53,927 Speaker 2: that you come back after the SICKI you have to try. 503 00:24:53,807 --> 00:24:56,127 Speaker 1: And remember to talk like this for a certain. 504 00:24:55,887 --> 00:24:58,167 Speaker 3: Portion of the day and keep in line what you 505 00:24:58,167 --> 00:25:00,327 Speaker 3: were sick with you can't say, oh, the headache was 506 00:25:00,327 --> 00:25:02,207 Speaker 3: really bad when apparently you're on the toilet all day. 507 00:25:02,287 --> 00:25:02,487 Speaker 2: Yeah. 508 00:25:02,527 --> 00:25:04,927 Speaker 5: Do some workplaces have a thing where you can't text 509 00:25:05,127 --> 00:25:06,327 Speaker 5: that you're sick, you have to ring? 510 00:25:06,607 --> 00:25:08,687 Speaker 3: Oh the text has saved me many a time. 511 00:25:09,447 --> 00:25:11,447 Speaker 2: Very recently, that was a big debate but seems to 512 00:25:11,487 --> 00:25:14,767 Speaker 2: have been resolved. So do you think that SICKI is dead? 513 00:25:14,887 --> 00:25:17,167 Speaker 2: And therefore it doesn't really matter what you call the leave. 514 00:25:17,207 --> 00:25:18,527 Speaker 2: It's just leave that you can take. 515 00:25:18,807 --> 00:25:21,527 Speaker 3: Well, you have personal slash care as leave, right, So 516 00:25:21,807 --> 00:25:24,887 Speaker 3: if I'm fashioning a text, I will often detail what 517 00:25:24,967 --> 00:25:27,967 Speaker 3: it is. So I've got a really bad cough, can't 518 00:25:27,967 --> 00:25:29,927 Speaker 3: come to work today, whatever. But if you just sent 519 00:25:29,967 --> 00:25:31,927 Speaker 3: a message, if you've received a message as a manager 520 00:25:32,007 --> 00:25:34,927 Speaker 3: and it just said, can't come to work today, see 521 00:25:34,927 --> 00:25:37,207 Speaker 3: you tomorrow, does that sound. 522 00:25:37,087 --> 00:25:39,207 Speaker 1: Do you have to be a reason still rumpy? I 523 00:25:39,207 --> 00:25:39,967 Speaker 1: would be grumpy. 524 00:25:40,167 --> 00:25:42,487 Speaker 2: I don't manage people anymore, but I did for many years, 525 00:25:43,007 --> 00:25:46,407 Speaker 2: And if you just sent me can't come today sorry, 526 00:25:46,527 --> 00:25:49,367 Speaker 2: I'd be like, I need more detail. If you ever 527 00:25:49,407 --> 00:25:51,327 Speaker 2: text me here and say you're sick. She wants a 528 00:25:51,367 --> 00:25:53,127 Speaker 2: lot of detail, and that's not because she wants to 529 00:25:53,127 --> 00:25:54,727 Speaker 2: prove you wrong. It's just because she thinks she's a 530 00:25:54,767 --> 00:25:58,887 Speaker 2: doctor for helpful advice. She will immediately say, oh, well, 531 00:25:58,887 --> 00:26:00,087 Speaker 2: when did it come on? And what do you think 532 00:26:01,407 --> 00:26:02,287 Speaker 2: stand exactly? 533 00:26:02,367 --> 00:26:04,687 Speaker 5: And I also want to know when did you start 534 00:26:04,687 --> 00:26:06,487 Speaker 5: feeling sick and how recently. 535 00:26:06,167 --> 00:26:06,727 Speaker 1: Did I see you. 536 00:26:06,807 --> 00:26:09,687 Speaker 2: Yes, she's very, very germ phobic like that. There's a 537 00:26:09,687 --> 00:26:10,847 Speaker 2: bit of me that loves it and a bit of 538 00:26:10,887 --> 00:26:13,247 Speaker 2: me that hates it. Right, because what we have recognized 539 00:26:13,647 --> 00:26:15,407 Speaker 2: is that rest is important if you want to get 540 00:26:15,407 --> 00:26:18,767 Speaker 2: the best out of people. The idea of work work 541 00:26:18,807 --> 00:26:22,967 Speaker 2: till you fall over. We have kind of moved culturally certainly, 542 00:26:23,047 --> 00:26:24,767 Speaker 2: and I mean, I know this might be a bit generational. 543 00:26:24,807 --> 00:26:26,847 Speaker 2: People have moved past that. They're like, to get the 544 00:26:26,887 --> 00:26:29,007 Speaker 2: best out of your employees and get the best out 545 00:26:29,007 --> 00:26:30,327 Speaker 2: of people, you've got to let them have a bit 546 00:26:30,367 --> 00:26:31,247 Speaker 2: of a break. Sometimes. 547 00:26:31,247 --> 00:26:33,127 Speaker 5: I wust to let my kids have mental health days. 548 00:26:33,527 --> 00:26:35,487 Speaker 2: I know at school, I don't do that. 549 00:26:35,567 --> 00:26:36,247 Speaker 1: Do you believe in it? 550 00:26:36,447 --> 00:26:40,047 Speaker 2: I don't do it. I used to be very strict. 551 00:26:40,127 --> 00:26:41,887 Speaker 2: I was thinking this yesterday because my daughter had a 552 00:26:41,967 --> 00:26:44,727 Speaker 2: day of school yesterday because she wasn't feeling well. And 553 00:26:44,887 --> 00:26:47,607 Speaker 2: I said to brentle my leg a sore. 554 00:26:47,487 --> 00:26:51,887 Speaker 3: Throat, I said to Brent, do you have a sore throat? 555 00:26:52,327 --> 00:26:54,647 Speaker 2: When I was a kid, my leg had to be 556 00:26:54,807 --> 00:26:59,807 Speaker 2: falling off right to be allowed to stay home. No, absolutely, no. 557 00:26:59,967 --> 00:27:02,487 Speaker 2: Sickies weren't tolerated at all in my house. And that's 558 00:27:02,527 --> 00:27:05,047 Speaker 2: because I had two working parents. And obviously, once you 559 00:27:05,087 --> 00:27:06,367 Speaker 2: get to a certain age where you can just be 560 00:27:06,367 --> 00:27:09,607 Speaker 2: home alone, but right up until then, you being is 561 00:27:09,607 --> 00:27:11,567 Speaker 2: a massive problem for them. I remember my mum was 562 00:27:11,607 --> 00:27:13,367 Speaker 2: a teacher through a lot of that time, and I 563 00:27:13,487 --> 00:27:15,047 Speaker 2: sometimes had to go and sit at the back of 564 00:27:15,047 --> 00:27:16,607 Speaker 2: her classroom. I had a lot of memories of that, 565 00:27:16,967 --> 00:27:19,047 Speaker 2: which was punishment enough in itself for you to never 566 00:27:19,087 --> 00:27:21,527 Speaker 2: want to throw a because watching your mom be a 567 00:27:21,567 --> 00:27:24,327 Speaker 2: teacher is kind of mortifying. So I think it's quite 568 00:27:24,487 --> 00:27:26,967 Speaker 2: ingraining me and I don't let them have mental health days, 569 00:27:27,127 --> 00:27:29,487 Speaker 2: but I do that assessment that you do where you go, 570 00:27:29,967 --> 00:27:32,447 Speaker 2: maybe you're not really sick, but you're really tad. Is 571 00:27:32,447 --> 00:27:35,127 Speaker 2: it an important day? What's on today? Will you miss 572 00:27:35,127 --> 00:27:35,887 Speaker 2: anything important? 573 00:27:35,967 --> 00:27:36,047 Speaker 4: Da? 574 00:27:36,127 --> 00:27:36,527 Speaker 1: Da da da? 575 00:27:37,127 --> 00:27:39,087 Speaker 2: And when you've got kids with certain issues, you've got 576 00:27:39,127 --> 00:27:40,727 Speaker 2: a lot of appointments and all those things. So I'm 577 00:27:40,727 --> 00:27:43,127 Speaker 2: not as strict about it as my parents were, but 578 00:27:43,167 --> 00:27:45,687 Speaker 2: I'm strict about it on myself because I think I 579 00:27:45,687 --> 00:27:48,287 Speaker 2: grew up with that ingrained in me and I've never 580 00:27:48,367 --> 00:27:50,247 Speaker 2: in my life just called up and said I'm not 581 00:27:50,247 --> 00:27:51,487 Speaker 2: coming to work today because I'm sad. 582 00:27:51,567 --> 00:27:54,727 Speaker 1: Like I couldn't even do it, could you imagine? Wouldn't 583 00:27:54,727 --> 00:27:57,127 Speaker 1: go down well in Manchester. I couldn't even do it. 584 00:27:57,167 --> 00:27:59,527 Speaker 2: But do I admire it and think that maybe we 585 00:27:59,567 --> 00:28:03,207 Speaker 2: should all like give ourselves because really the thing about this, 586 00:28:03,487 --> 00:28:06,087 Speaker 2: even from a boss's perspective, people is you're had a 587 00:28:06,127 --> 00:28:08,247 Speaker 2: good job, but I know, but you're no good to 588 00:28:08,247 --> 00:28:10,207 Speaker 2: me if you come in here, you're just miserable and 589 00:28:10,247 --> 00:28:12,647 Speaker 2: moping around and not doing anything and hanging around in 590 00:28:12,687 --> 00:28:13,687 Speaker 2: the kitchen winging. 591 00:28:13,727 --> 00:28:15,367 Speaker 3: And like if I'm sad, though, I think I would 592 00:28:15,447 --> 00:28:17,487 Speaker 3: rather be at work and then spend my happy days off, 593 00:28:17,847 --> 00:28:19,927 Speaker 3: Like why would I want to spend my day, my 594 00:28:20,007 --> 00:28:22,927 Speaker 3: sad day at home? It feels like, oh. 595 00:28:22,847 --> 00:28:24,087 Speaker 1: Question, bring it to work. 596 00:28:24,207 --> 00:28:27,167 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the thing. I did read this incredible article 597 00:28:27,247 --> 00:28:29,607 Speaker 3: in the Guardian and it was all about the idea 598 00:28:29,607 --> 00:28:32,087 Speaker 3: of a life's abatical. So if you're unhappy, don't stop it. 599 00:28:32,167 --> 00:28:35,407 Speaker 3: One day, take a year. So Emma Gannon took a 600 00:28:35,487 --> 00:28:37,047 Speaker 3: year off and she has a new book called The 601 00:28:37,127 --> 00:28:39,927 Speaker 3: Year of Doing Nothing, which is my goal. 602 00:28:40,407 --> 00:28:42,487 Speaker 5: So that's like eat, pray, love, Like it's easy to 603 00:28:42,487 --> 00:28:44,927 Speaker 5: do that. If you get a massive book advance and. 604 00:28:44,807 --> 00:28:48,487 Speaker 3: You just write a book doing last thing. 605 00:28:48,527 --> 00:28:50,207 Speaker 2: It annoys me about those kind of books. I love 606 00:28:50,207 --> 00:28:52,047 Speaker 2: e m Gunn and I'm not criticizing her, but people 607 00:28:52,087 --> 00:28:53,927 Speaker 2: who tell you that they weren't doing anything and they 608 00:28:53,927 --> 00:28:56,527 Speaker 2: were writing a book, mate, you are not helping, Like 609 00:28:56,607 --> 00:28:58,047 Speaker 2: writing a book is a lot of work. 610 00:28:58,367 --> 00:28:59,607 Speaker 1: But I found useful in this. 611 00:28:59,767 --> 00:29:01,887 Speaker 3: It said what you should do right if you want 612 00:29:01,887 --> 00:29:03,487 Speaker 3: to rest, if you're going to throw your unhappiness day 613 00:29:03,567 --> 00:29:05,887 Speaker 3: or if you're going to throw a sickie is rest 614 00:29:05,927 --> 00:29:07,847 Speaker 3: is the opposite to what you do in the office 615 00:29:07,847 --> 00:29:09,527 Speaker 3: all day. So I was saying that if you're a teacher, 616 00:29:09,607 --> 00:29:11,927 Speaker 3: for example, and your job is giving a lot of instructions, 617 00:29:12,247 --> 00:29:14,407 Speaker 3: your day off or your holiday has to involve you 618 00:29:14,487 --> 00:29:18,167 Speaker 3: giving no instructions. So like someone else decides where you're 619 00:29:18,207 --> 00:29:20,647 Speaker 3: going to have dinner, and then like because you have 620 00:29:20,687 --> 00:29:22,447 Speaker 3: sort of decision fatigue. And I think it's the same 621 00:29:22,447 --> 00:29:24,687 Speaker 3: with us. It's like when we recharge because our jobs 622 00:29:24,687 --> 00:29:28,727 Speaker 3: are so much talking and quite social in nature. It's 623 00:29:28,767 --> 00:29:30,727 Speaker 3: like our rest has to look like sitting in a 624 00:29:30,807 --> 00:29:33,127 Speaker 3: dark room bedro rocking back and forth. I thought that 625 00:29:33,207 --> 00:29:34,007 Speaker 3: was very, very true. 626 00:29:34,047 --> 00:29:36,807 Speaker 2: I've got a really good episode of mid coming up 627 00:29:36,847 --> 00:29:40,007 Speaker 2: next week friends about burnout, and that's exactly what the 628 00:29:40,007 --> 00:29:43,007 Speaker 2: author Castro may say says. Rest is relative to everybody. 629 00:29:43,127 --> 00:29:45,087 Speaker 2: Like the idea that rest just means laying on a 630 00:29:45,127 --> 00:29:46,767 Speaker 2: couch is not true if. 631 00:29:46,647 --> 00:29:49,767 Speaker 5: You're all flexing your podcasts and your projects and stuff. 632 00:29:49,927 --> 00:29:53,167 Speaker 5: I this week got up early to go do an 633 00:29:53,207 --> 00:29:56,527 Speaker 5: interview for No Filter, which is my podcast about the 634 00:29:56,607 --> 00:29:57,887 Speaker 5: seven different types of rest. 635 00:29:58,087 --> 00:30:00,727 Speaker 1: And she didn't show up, and I was very tired 636 00:30:00,727 --> 00:30:03,967 Speaker 1: because I got up very was she resting? I don't know. 637 00:30:04,927 --> 00:30:05,887 Speaker 1: I wasn't happy though. 638 00:30:05,927 --> 00:30:07,127 Speaker 5: I wonted did that thing because I had to get 639 00:30:07,207 --> 00:30:09,047 Speaker 5: up early. I woke up all through the night, like 640 00:30:09,247 --> 00:30:11,607 Speaker 5: three o'clock, four o'clock, five o'clock. 641 00:30:11,807 --> 00:30:14,127 Speaker 1: Yep. Should have taken an unhappiness day. 642 00:30:14,527 --> 00:30:18,567 Speaker 3: I should have out louders by now. I really hope 643 00:30:18,607 --> 00:30:21,247 Speaker 3: you've all watched it. The idea of you and Hathaway. Honestly, 644 00:30:21,287 --> 00:30:23,527 Speaker 3: if you're having an unhappiness day. May I suggest watching 645 00:30:23,607 --> 00:30:24,567 Speaker 3: that film on repeat? 646 00:30:24,647 --> 00:30:26,367 Speaker 2: What if the outlouders said that they watched it on 647 00:30:26,407 --> 00:30:29,567 Speaker 2: their dourner day in nash And we. 648 00:30:29,487 --> 00:30:31,527 Speaker 5: Should talk about this at some stage, maybe on a 649 00:30:31,527 --> 00:30:36,847 Speaker 5: different subs episode about the return of digital penetration as 650 00:30:36,887 --> 00:30:37,607 Speaker 5: a sex scene. 651 00:30:37,687 --> 00:30:41,527 Speaker 1: You didn't expect me to say that digital penetration? Did 652 00:30:41,527 --> 00:30:43,287 Speaker 1: I miss the fingering in that film? You did? 653 00:30:43,927 --> 00:30:44,127 Speaker 3: When? 654 00:30:44,167 --> 00:30:46,607 Speaker 1: Did that happen? Also in British? And it's everywhere that 655 00:30:46,647 --> 00:30:49,887 Speaker 1: I look at the moment. It's a trend. Let's do 656 00:30:49,927 --> 00:30:52,047 Speaker 1: a sub episode on fingering out loud as you heard 657 00:30:52,047 --> 00:30:53,087 Speaker 1: any focustomer. 658 00:30:53,527 --> 00:31:01,447 Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember the I'm sorry I say, guys. 659 00:31:01,167 --> 00:31:02,047 Speaker 1: Skibbity toilet. 660 00:31:03,327 --> 00:31:08,927 Speaker 3: Okay. Maa watched it and gave Holly and I homework 661 00:31:08,967 --> 00:31:11,847 Speaker 3: to watch sh and then we had an interesting chat. 662 00:31:12,367 --> 00:31:14,807 Speaker 5: Rely wasn't watching it closely enough because she missed the 663 00:31:14,807 --> 00:31:15,487 Speaker 5: fingering scene? 664 00:31:15,567 --> 00:31:17,967 Speaker 1: Yes, it must have been quick. Okay, I'm. 665 00:31:19,967 --> 00:31:22,767 Speaker 3: That yesterday subscriber episode. If you want to watch it 666 00:31:22,847 --> 00:31:24,807 Speaker 3: all about the idea of you. Here is a sneak peek. 667 00:31:25,287 --> 00:31:29,047 Speaker 2: The idea here right is an interesting one. He's twenty four, 668 00:31:29,527 --> 00:31:33,447 Speaker 2: she's forty he's famous. She's not. But she looks twenty 669 00:31:33,487 --> 00:31:36,247 Speaker 2: four and sher body's like a twenty four year old body. 670 00:31:36,407 --> 00:31:38,967 Speaker 2: So a lot of the tension there. And there is 671 00:31:39,007 --> 00:31:40,487 Speaker 2: a bit of a scene in there where she's supposed 672 00:31:40,487 --> 00:31:42,447 Speaker 2: to feel really self conscious about being in the swimmers 673 00:31:42,447 --> 00:31:44,727 Speaker 2: in front of hot young girls and things, and. 674 00:31:44,687 --> 00:31:46,327 Speaker 3: She stands in front of the mirror and I'm like, 675 00:31:46,447 --> 00:31:52,127 Speaker 3: oh no, I'm a victorious secret angel. 676 00:31:50,607 --> 00:31:53,207 Speaker 1: All right, that's it. 677 00:31:53,247 --> 00:31:55,007 Speaker 2: I'm calling time. We're done for today. 678 00:31:55,367 --> 00:31:56,527 Speaker 1: MIA's brought up fingering. 679 00:31:56,567 --> 00:31:58,207 Speaker 2: We all need to go back to our desks. 680 00:31:58,487 --> 00:32:00,447 Speaker 1: We are going to be back in your ears on. 681 00:32:00,367 --> 00:32:02,927 Speaker 2: Friday, when we'll be doing one of our off the 682 00:32:02,967 --> 00:32:06,767 Speaker 2: news episodes and sorting out all your friendship issues and ours, 683 00:32:07,207 --> 00:32:12,047 Speaker 2: especially after that conversation with enormous thanks to our amazing 684 00:32:12,127 --> 00:32:15,127 Speaker 2: team Emmeline Gazillas. The assistant producer of our show is 685 00:32:15,167 --> 00:32:18,127 Speaker 2: Charlie Blackman. We've had audio production from their porges and 686 00:32:18,167 --> 00:32:21,207 Speaker 2: a special thanks to our wonderful brand manager, Carrie Scott Jackson. 687 00:32:21,447 --> 00:32:23,567 Speaker 2: And we'll see you back here on Friday. 688 00:32:23,607 --> 00:32:24,527 Speaker 1: Bye bye bye. 689 00:32:25,287 --> 00:32:28,567 Speaker 5: Shout out to any Muma Mia subscribers listening if you 690 00:32:28,687 --> 00:32:31,087 Speaker 5: love the show and want to support us as well. 691 00:32:31,247 --> 00:32:33,767 Speaker 5: Subscribing to MoMA mia is the very best way to 692 00:32:33,807 --> 00:32:36,207 Speaker 5: do so. There is a link in the episode description