Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Today is a different show than usual, because today is
Speaker 2: a different day. Last night, as the light was fading
Speaker 2: at Bondi Beach, Australia suffered its worst ever terrorist attack
Speaker 2: on our soil when two gunmen opened fire on a
Speaker 2: family celebration of the Jewish religious festival of lights Hannekah. Today,
Speaker 2: we're all, whether we're connected to the place in the
Speaker 2: community or whether we're watching and reading from far away,
Speaker 2: reeling with the loss of As we record this, fifteen
Speaker 2: innocent people, including.
Speaker 3: A ten year old child.
Speaker 2: More than forty people are still in hospital, including two
Speaker 2: police officers and more children. As we're recording and throughout
Speaker 2: the day, the identities of those affected are coming to
Speaker 2: light and it's just unthinkably sad and very frightening. So
Speaker 2: today on Mamma Mia out Loud, we're here to talk.
Speaker 2: And joining me for this talk are Jesse Stevens, Amelia
Speaker 2: Lester and Mia Friedman. Mia, thank you for coming back
Speaker 2: to the mic today. This attack did happen in your
Speaker 2: community and close to home. Let's start with why last night,
Speaker 2: what kind of gathering that was at the beach for Hannakah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, first of all, thanks to all the out louders
Speaker 4: who've reached out the kindness, and I know we're going
Speaker 4: to talk about that more shortly, but the kindness that
Speaker 4: has been shown by so many people has been quite overwhelming.
Speaker 4: Hannakhah is just a really simple, happy festival. It's called
Speaker 4: the Festival of Light. Ironically, it is a festival that
Speaker 4: is about celebrating the triumph of light over darkness, and
Speaker 4: it sort of celebrates this old story of a small
Speaker 4: band of Jewish people who won against a much bigger empire.
Speaker 4: And there was a tiny bit of oil that should
Speaker 4: have lasted one day, but somehow, by a miracle, it
Speaker 4: kept a sacred flame burning fight. So over the eight
Speaker 4: days of Hunterkah, we like candles and we tell the
Speaker 4: story and we eat lots of treats. So it's sort
Speaker 4: of like a bit of a Christmas equivalent. You know,
Speaker 4: some people give presents. It's very family and children based.
Speaker 4: It's a very sort of happy festival.
Speaker 5: And this festival in Bondai last night was you know,
Speaker 5: face painting, There was a petting zoo, there was food
Speaker 5: stands all all set up, and a gathering of.
Speaker 6: So many Jewish people.
Speaker 5: You know, some of whom we know are out louders,
Speaker 5: and when I've been to synagogue with you Maya, we
Speaker 5: are often approached by out louders from that community. And
Speaker 5: I think that just first up in terms of who
Speaker 5: we're thinking about today, that community, who who were there,
Speaker 5: who had this moment of peace and safety interrupted and
Speaker 5: you know, horrifically traumatically how that unfolded. We're just thinking
Speaker 5: of them, and we're thinking of everyone who had to
Speaker 5: send messages and check on their family who were there
Speaker 5: and who have experienced the unthinkable overnight.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it feels a lot of people have said, you know,
Speaker 4: obviously for those who don't know I'm Jewish, there are
Speaker 4: some people that might not know that I'm some out
Speaker 4: louders or people who are new to the show who
Speaker 4: might not realize that I'm Jewish, But I am Jewish.
Speaker 4: And a lot of people have said, you know, how
Speaker 4: do you feel? And the sentiment there's a million things,
Speaker 4: and I can't obviously speak for my whole community. I
Speaker 4: can only speak for myself. But what people keep saying
Speaker 4: is we are shocked, but we are not surprised because
Speaker 4: to be Jewish living in any country, you grow up
Speaker 4: with a really acute awareness that there are a lot
Speaker 4: of people who hate Jews and that your safety is
Speaker 4: always precarious, particularly during gatherings.
Speaker 5: And that's why the presence of security is someone who's
Speaker 5: been welcomed into the Eastern Suburbs Jewish community as an outsider,
Speaker 5: to go to a place of worship and see people
Speaker 5: standing out the front, with standing out the front as
Speaker 5: security is not something you see when you walk.
Speaker 4: Into a Catholic church, no, And it's interesting because we
Speaker 4: take that sofa granted, like you know, there's raizor wire
Speaker 4: around our schools and our preschools and our daycare centers,
Speaker 4: and there is a whole volunteer security army of Jewish
Speaker 4: people that work to try and keep the community safe.
Speaker 4: And most Jewish events are kept very very secret for
Speaker 4: this exact reason always. And what's interesting, this particular Hanuka
Speaker 4: gathering was by the Hubbard community, which is you know,
Speaker 4: like any religion, there's a there's a spectrum of degrees
Speaker 4: of observance observance, yeah, exactly, And the Hubbard community is
Speaker 4: very open and they're very you know, one of the rabbis,
Speaker 4: the rabbi that was killed, the organizer of the event
Speaker 4: who goes by the handle on Instagram at Bondai Rabbi.
Speaker 4: He was very welcoming. You know, he just had his
Speaker 4: fifth child six weeks ago and he was posting on
Speaker 4: social media. He sort of uses social media to try
Speaker 4: and and break down some of the anti Semitism and
Speaker 4: to promote, you know, the religion as a as a
Speaker 4: really positive thing.
Speaker 7: I mean, the New South Wales Police commissioner mentioned I
Speaker 7: noticed that the Jewish community does have their own security force,
Speaker 7: which I did not know about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do.
Speaker 4: It's a lot of I have a lot of friends
Speaker 4: and relatives of friends.
Speaker 1: Of people of all ages.
Speaker 4: But it takes you know, our synagogues and our any
Speaker 4: Jewish gathering is we need a huge amount of protection
Speaker 4: and you grow up knowing it, and you know, I
Speaker 4: always say that they're purely volunteers, but they're very you know,
Speaker 4: they're well trained, and my heart's also with them today
Speaker 4: because their whole purpose is to try and keep our
Speaker 4: community safe.
Speaker 2: If you're not familiar with Bondai Beach, it sounds kind
Speaker 2: of like a silly thing to say, because it's no
Speaker 2: doubt one of the most famous places in Australia. But
Speaker 2: there are be lots of people listening to this who've
Speaker 2: never been there. Right, So Bondi is in these and
Speaker 2: suburbs of Sydney. It is intensely international. Anyone who would
Speaker 2: have been watching the news coverage last night would have
Speaker 2: been struck by the all the different accents from all
Speaker 2: over the world of the people who were caught up
Speaker 2: in this horrific event yesterday. So it attracts people from
Speaker 2: all over Sydney and all over the country and all
Speaker 2: over the world to see this beautiful beach and ye
Speaker 2: yesterday in Sydney was a stunning summer day and at
Speaker 2: about six thirty seven o'clock on an eastern suburb city
Speaker 2: beach when the weather is like this, there are thousands
Speaker 2: of people. So there was this very particular gathering.
Speaker 4: There's just on one part in the park behind the beach.
Speaker 2: Yes in a very specific place on the beach. But
Speaker 2: then all around them there were backpackers, there were surfers,
Speaker 2: there are families with their kids, there are people walking
Speaker 2: their docks, there are people exercising. This place is very busy,
Speaker 2: it's very populous, and I think one of the things
Speaker 2: that is so striking about this is that sort of
Speaker 2: peace and different degrees of celebration being so horrifically disrupted.
Speaker 5: But for the.
Speaker 2: Local community there, the eastern suburbs of Sydney has I
Speaker 2: think the second largest concentration of Jewish people in the country.
Speaker 1: So it's interesting.
Speaker 4: The Bondai community is incredibly tight and I've spent time
Speaker 4: living in Bondai as well, and you know a huge
Speaker 4: number of non Jewish people of course that live in Bondai,
Speaker 4: but the Jewish community is also very close knit. And
Speaker 4: you write the concentric circles of those two things overlap
Speaker 4: very much. And you know the geography is such because
Speaker 4: you might have seen bits in online or in the news.
Speaker 4: It's like there's Campbell Parade, which is the main road
Speaker 4: that runs from one end of the beach to the other.
Speaker 4: Then in front of that is like there's a bit
Speaker 4: of a car park, and there was that bridge where
Speaker 4: the terraces were, and then there's a park that goes
Speaker 4: from one end.
Speaker 3: To the other.
Speaker 4: Then there's the promenade, and then there's the beach. And
Speaker 4: so the where this happened was set up almost like
Speaker 4: a little fate, as you said, Jess, with like a
Speaker 4: petting zoo and little little market stalls and things.
Speaker 5: And in order to if you are walking to the
Speaker 5: children's park, you would go over that bridge like you would.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we've all been across that absolutely many times.
Speaker 6: And you know at that time there are still people
Speaker 6: swimming like it's a surface in the water.
Speaker 5: A very popular time and I can't think of many
Speaker 5: places in the world, in fact, where you would feel
Speaker 5: safer than sitting on the grass there in Bondai with
Speaker 5: that incredible, that calmness, that sereneness like and I think
Speaker 5: as someone who didn't grow up in the Eastern Suburbs
Speaker 5: but has moved there, you can't look at the Eastern
Speaker 5: Suburbs without without the Jewish presence, Like I think it's
Speaker 5: one third of the Jewish population in Australia lives in
Speaker 5: the Eastern Suburbs. And you see on a Friday night
Speaker 5: you see the men in their killers or traditional Jewish
Speaker 5: dress and that is part of living in the Eastern Suburbs.
Speaker 4: Quite a few synagogues around there, Yeah, yeah, because the
Speaker 4: very observant Jews. You need to walk to synagogue. But
Speaker 4: it's also the Jewish community, to be clear, is really small,
Speaker 4: Like there's one hundred thousand Jewish people in Australia.
Speaker 1: That's tin you tiny tiny.
Speaker 2: That must mean though that an event like this, I mean,
Speaker 2: for you, last night, everybody knows somebody, I assume. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And so everybody's messaging each other, everybody's checking in, everybody's afraid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 4: And you know, I was having dinner last night. I
Speaker 4: didn't I wasn't looking at my phone, and suddenly someone
Speaker 4: looked at their phone and then we all checked. And
Speaker 4: the sirens, we just heard sirens. We live a couple
Speaker 4: of suburbs away from Bondai and the other thing to explain,
Speaker 4: and then the choppers and everything. But the other thing
Speaker 4: for people to understand is that Bondo is a real
Speaker 4: melting pot. People sometimes hear eastern suburbs and think that
Speaker 4: it's all she shei and fancy and influences. It's like,
Speaker 4: it's not that Amelia. You've you don't live near there,
Speaker 4: but you've what's your well.
Speaker 7: I think this is why terrorism is so uniquely upsetting,
Speaker 7: because just as Hanakut is a sacred, holy special time
Speaker 7: for the Jewish community, the beach is Australians a sacred
Speaker 7: place too. And this is what terrorism aims to do.
Speaker 7: It aims to make us all feel unsafe by targeting
Speaker 7: one community practicing their religion at a place that is
Speaker 7: sacred to all Australians that it doesn't get more fundamental
Speaker 7: as a breach of what Australia is and what we
Speaker 7: stand for.
Speaker 5: And the symbolism of Bondao Beach, you could not probably
Speaker 5: find a more iconic symbol of what it is to
Speaker 5: be Australia.
Speaker 7: It's the one place in Australia that everyone in the
Speaker 7: world knows. They don't know the Harbor Bridge, some of
Speaker 7: them know the Opera House, some of them know Ularu.
Speaker 7: Everyone's heard of Bondo Beach and what they think of
Speaker 7: they think of Bondo Beach is the quintessential Australian lifestyle
Speaker 7: that is practiced there, which includes people of all religions
Speaker 7: and all social classes coming together to have an ice
Speaker 7: cream at the end of what was a quintessential early
Speaker 7: summer day.
Speaker 5: And the acknowledgment last night as it was all coming
Speaker 5: in and we were, you know, checking on friends and
Speaker 5: I'm looking at it.
Speaker 4: You have family that live at Bondai and you're down
Speaker 4: in that part.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you're there.
Speaker 5: Offer very with your family, familiar and you're thinking about
Speaker 5: the children and the people, they're just practicing their faith.
Speaker 5: And I just kept thinking about you flee Europe because
Speaker 5: of the Holocaust and the mass migration to the Eastern suburbs,
Speaker 5: a lot of it happened after World War Two, post
Speaker 5: Holocaust to flee ethnic persecution, and you end up on
Speaker 5: the shores of Bondai Beach and you are attacked there.
Speaker 5: The unthinkable, unfathomable cruelty of that, and then as we
Speaker 5: have learned more about the victims, including one victim who
Speaker 5: was himself a Holocaust survivor, as was his wife. To
Speaker 5: be killed on Bondi Beach is just I think unsettles
Speaker 5: our sense of who we are as Australians and what
Speaker 5: we offer people who come here wanting us say for life.
Speaker 4: The truth is that we've been feeling unsettled in the
Speaker 4: community for a while now. There's been growing anti Semitism
Speaker 4: and what I said about we're so shocked, but we're
Speaker 4: not surprised.
Speaker 1: This is our worst fears realized.
Speaker 4: And as I said, when there's such a small community,
Speaker 4: pretty much every Jewish person is the descendant of either
Speaker 4: Holocaust victims or Holocaust survivors. Usually Holocaust victims. We all
Speaker 4: have family members who were lost in the Holocaust. I
Speaker 4: have it on both sides, or my kids have it
Speaker 4: on both sides of their family, and so that's always
Speaker 4: present in our mind. But you're right, there's a certain
Speaker 4: sense of suspension of fear that you have to have
Speaker 4: to go about your daily life, and you are more
Speaker 4: alert when you go to like a synagogue or you know,
Speaker 4: I've been to Jewish events, But as you say, there's
Speaker 4: something about Bonday Beach because this wasn't like a religious
Speaker 4: they weren't practicing their religion. It was just like a gathering,
Speaker 4: like a community gathering that anyone was welcome to celebrated
Speaker 4: exactly like a Christmas.
Speaker 1: Concert like Carols by the Beach or something like that.
Speaker 3: We're going to be back in a moment.
Speaker 7: We wanted to talk a little bit about how this
Speaker 7: is a lot more local story. It's it's the top
Speaker 7: story on news sites all around the world. I think
Speaker 7: it's the top news story in the world today.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that is?
Speaker 5: I think that that Jewish communities all over the world
Speaker 5: are deeply touch.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I also think that it is the fact
Speaker 2: that a terrorist attack of this magnitude in Australia does
Speaker 2: not happen. A usual story Australia is seen and we
Speaker 2: you know, we talked about this in different ways, but
Speaker 2: as a as a safe place.
Speaker 3: And I think.
Speaker 2: That this, the fact that this has happened in somewhere
Speaker 2: so iconically international, is going to be shocking to everybody.
Speaker 5: And to stand in plain sight on a footbridge with
Speaker 5: people running around you, I think there's this question. We
Speaker 5: are known internationally for our strict, strict gun laws, so
Speaker 5: there's also the image of a man holding a gun
Speaker 5: pointing it at civilians daylight.
Speaker 1: But they thought there were no guns in Australia.
Speaker 4: They felt very smug, didn't we Like every time they
Speaker 4: used to be mass shooting in America, people would say,
Speaker 4: thank Heavens that you know that our government enacted strict
Speaker 4: gun laws after Put Arthur, which was almost thirty years ago,
Speaker 4: and we thought that this wasn't able to happen.
Speaker 7: I think that gun thing is huge. I had people
Speaker 7: from the US asking me how did they get these guns.
Speaker 7: The second thing is, if I'm frank, I think a
Speaker 7: lot of people in America and internationally don't are not
Speaker 7: aware of Australia's large Jewish population. Well, as you pointed out,
Speaker 7: it's not large. It's less than a hundred thousand people.
Speaker 7: They don't think of Australia as a place where this
Speaker 7: kind of terrorism or violence happens, so you think of
Speaker 7: it as a place where people are pretty much unified,
Speaker 7: where this kind of violence is not a staple.
Speaker 5: The other two things are that this is arising anti
Speaker 5: Semitism is being felt all over the world, so this
Speaker 5: is something that is not just a local Australian issue.
Speaker 5: It is something that has been enormously felt.
Speaker 7: And it also just pierces everyone's sense of safety in
Speaker 7: the sense that Australia was seen as the safest, So
Speaker 7: if this is happening in Australia, people think it really
Speaker 7: can happen anywhere.
Speaker 5: The second thing is the proliferation of footage. So that
Speaker 5: there were so many people there and it was in
Speaker 5: a public area means that there are so many videos.
Speaker 5: In almost real time, we were getting images and videos
Speaker 5: of those men standing on that bridge. We then got
Speaker 5: the incredible footage which we're going to get to of
Speaker 5: a man intercepting one of the alleged terrorists. I think
Speaker 5: even the footage of everyone running like.
Speaker 1: That, every life savers. I mean it was all just
Speaker 1: was like something out of a nightmare. Yep.
Speaker 7: The thing is that this kind of horror is very
Speaker 7: unusual in Australia, but it is happening elsewhere a lot
Speaker 7: more often. And to that point, I wanted to talk
Speaker 7: about a contrast that I observed yesterday between two tragedies
Speaker 7: unfolding on the same day. And I bring it up
Speaker 7: not because a mass shooting in the United States is
Speaker 7: especially exceptional now, but because I found the contrast between
Speaker 7: how the two national leaders responded really instructive to how
Speaker 7: Australians can be feeling in this moment about our leaders.
Speaker 7: The mass shooting at Brown University, there was a lot
Speaker 7: of confusion, as there often is with mass shootings, and
Speaker 7: there was a very long man hunt that took place
Speaker 7: after these students had been shot while they were reviewing
Speaker 7: for their final exams, and Donald Trump posted on social
Speaker 7: media that a suspect was in custody. Now, this was
Speaker 7: at a time when students were locked in their dorms.
Speaker 7: They didn't know what was happening. This person who had
Speaker 7: shot students was on the loose in this very small,
Speaker 7: close knit college town, and he posts on social media,
Speaker 7: Everything's fine, the suspect is in custody. You can go
Speaker 7: about your business. Fifteen minutes later, he had to recount
Speaker 7: that post, and he had to say.
Speaker 1: Actually, I was wrong.
Speaker 7: I have to say that watching Anthony Albanese's press conference yesterday,
Speaker 7: Setting aside the longer you or any kind of political concerns,
Speaker 7: I just want to contrast the responses of the two leaders,
Speaker 7: because he got up at a moment when we also
Speaker 7: didn't know a lot about what had happened at BONDI.
Speaker 7: We still don't know all the facts, and he refused
Speaker 7: to give into speculation, or to make divisive statements, or
Speaker 7: to flame any kind of anger or or bitterness. Instead,
Speaker 7: he just struck what I thought was a really appropriate
Speaker 7: he said, and I want to read it because I
Speaker 7: thought it really hit the right note. An attack on
Speaker 7: Jewish Australians is an attack on every Australian, and every
Speaker 7: Australian tonight will be like me, devastated by this attack
Speaker 7: on our way of life.
Speaker 6: I completely agree, and.
Speaker 5: I think the Trump example speaks to the failures and
Speaker 5: shortcomings of social media at moments like that, and how
Speaker 5: you have this instinct to turn on the news because
Speaker 5: you know that the news will blur things that are
Speaker 5: not appropriate for all of us to see in the aftermath.
Speaker 3: And literally the imagery.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, I know, in the aftermath you can, like
Speaker 5: I was terrified to go on Instagram or TikTok or
Speaker 5: anything because you can be bombarded with images you will
Speaker 5: never ever forget. And the misinformation is so unhelpful, the
Speaker 5: misinformation about other suburbs. And then you've got new rumors flying, yeah,
Speaker 5: exactly right, and you've got New South Wales Police and
Speaker 5: dedicating resources to either investigating those rumors or having to
Speaker 5: communicate with the wider public that they're not true. And
Speaker 5: I think that even thinking of the social media band
Speaker 5: for all it's you know, imperfections, and we won't go
Speaker 5: into that, but I just thought, if there is a
Speaker 5: moment where it would be great for young people not
Speaker 5: to have access to social media, it is this moment.
Speaker 2: It is interesting that because I still obviously spoke to
Speaker 2: my kids about what they're about to see on social
Speaker 2: because kids are still on social Yeah, you know, this
Speaker 2: is not the time to go into this, but they
Speaker 2: are still all on social media. I spoke to them
Speaker 2: straight away about you don't want to see this, like,
Speaker 2: you really don't want to see this, and I don't
Speaker 2: think they do want to see it, but I know
Speaker 2: they will see it, you know, so you I think
Speaker 2: that as a parent, it's one of the things that
Speaker 2: frustrates people. I think about having that power taken out
Speaker 2: of our hands. About once there was a time when
Speaker 2: it was like turn off the news, don't put on
Speaker 2: the radio, you know, and it felt like you were
Speaker 2: in control of what your children were going to consume.
Speaker 2: But I know that even if my kids aren't going
Speaker 2: to go hunting for that footage, they will be shown
Speaker 2: it at school today. They will see it inevitably, and
Speaker 2: so that means that it's changed kind of your responsibility
Speaker 2: to what to tell them about it, because I don't
Speaker 2: want them to hear all that stuff without first of all,
Speaker 2: hearing something a bit more responsible and appropriate. Not that
Speaker 2: there's any way to soften just such a horror, you know,
Speaker 2: the horror of this. It's unprecedented in Australia, and that's
Speaker 2: so important. But that was one of the important things
Speaker 2: to say to my kids. This is incredibly rare. Here
Speaker 2: I will say too, just so everybody understands this, because
Speaker 2: one of the things about watching a news story unfold
Speaker 2: like this on social is, everybody gets very impatient for
Speaker 2: why won't you call it what it is? For example,
Speaker 2: last night on the thing, it was like say that
Speaker 2: it was terrorism, and the traditional news won't do that
Speaker 2: until it has been called that by the authorities. And
Speaker 2: in this instance, it was called that relatively quickly because
Speaker 2: it was very very clearly terrorism in less than three hours, yes,
Speaker 2: and so then all the media could report that. But
Speaker 2: what you see on social until that happens is this
Speaker 2: boiling anger about why won't you say this and why
Speaker 2: won't you say that? And I think it's interesting for
Speaker 2: everyone to understand kind of why.
Speaker 5: And I think the aftermath from Chris Mins to Anthony Albernezi.
Speaker 4: Chris Mins, the Premier of New South Wales, was or
Speaker 4: sorry outstanding. Yes, yeah, he has been outstanding on going.
Speaker 4: But I wanted to ask you guys as people who
Speaker 4: aren't Jewish. I mean, obviously the Jewish community is just
Speaker 4: in such deep shock and distress and we can't even
Speaker 4: All they want to do is gather with my community,
Speaker 4: but synagogues are closed on the advice of police.
Speaker 1: We can't gather.
Speaker 4: And when you know Chris Mins or whoever is saying,
Speaker 4: and the police commissioner, we will increase resources.
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't know what else.
Speaker 4: Could people could do, because the levels of security around
Speaker 4: any Jewish place of worship, Jewish school, Jewish preschool, Jewish
Speaker 4: gathering of any kind is so unbelievable.
Speaker 1: I don't know what else you could do.
Speaker 5: And the terror threat has been probable for a while,
Speaker 5: and there was a question about whether that is going
Speaker 5: to increase, and I was confused about the meaning of
Speaker 5: probable because it was then said there's a fifty percent chance,
Speaker 5: and I was like, fifty percent chance, when now any
Speaker 5: moment they can't say they say fifty percent chance in
Speaker 5: a twelve month period of there being a terror attack
Speaker 5: that has obviously happened, they've not increased it. And I
Speaker 5: think you can tell from listening to the head of
Speaker 5: AZO and listening to the Police commissioner that there is
Speaker 5: a lot of intelligence that we are not privy to
Speaker 5: and that they are now compiling. But I agree you
Speaker 5: think even with all of that intelligence and that you
Speaker 5: would think that even a gathering of Jewish people that
Speaker 5: there would be increased security.
Speaker 4: I don't know what you could have done really to
Speaker 4: I mean.
Speaker 6: There's going to be a lot of questions over the next.
Speaker 4: What's interesting to me, though, is, as I said, Jewish
Speaker 4: people have been talking about the rise in anti Semitism,
Speaker 4: the fact that there are Nazis demonstrating in the streets.
Speaker 4: We have been talking amongst ourselves. We have shrunk away
Speaker 4: from the world. We have been fearful on a day
Speaker 4: to day basis for the last few years. What I'm
Speaker 4: interested to understand from you guys is I've noticed that
Speaker 4: this seems to be affecting people who aren't Jewish very deeply.
Speaker 1: What do you think that Why do you think that is?
Speaker 4: Do you think it would have been different had it
Speaker 4: happened in a synagogue and you could have kind of
Speaker 4: gone I don't mean to discount it, but you know
Speaker 4: that whenever a tragedy like this happens, you sort of
Speaker 4: logically look for reasons why that couldn't have been new.
Speaker 4: But do you think the fact that it was BONDI
Speaker 4: just makes everyone think and gun's what's unsettling.
Speaker 2: I think it's what Amelia said earlier about the point
Speaker 2: of terrorism, because this was terrorism, this is walk Obviously
Speaker 2: the target of this was a Jewish celebration. But as
Speaker 2: we spoke about at the beginning, there are thousands of
Speaker 2: people on that beach. It does affect every Australian because
Speaker 2: our very sense of safety was struck at by these people,
Speaker 2: these terrorists, and that's the point that they're trying to make.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you, though, Miya, because when we're
Speaker 2: going to get in a minute to how people can help.
Speaker 2: But one thing that people keep saying is wrap your
Speaker 2: arms around your Jewish friends and reach out. Is that
Speaker 2: what you want people to do? And what does that
Speaker 2: look like? And does it feel in any way a
Speaker 2: little empty?
Speaker 1: No, it really doesn't.
Speaker 4: And again I can only speak for myself, but one
Speaker 4: of the things that has touched me the most has
Speaker 4: been people reaching out, like to just say I'm thinking
Speaker 4: of you. Just send an emoji, just like if you
Speaker 4: know someone who is Jewish, just check on them because
Speaker 4: they're devastated and they're scared. And it means a lot
Speaker 4: because it can feel very very lonely, you know, it
Speaker 4: can feel like, yeah, it can just feel very lonely.
Speaker 4: And it's felt like that the last few years. And
Speaker 4: you know, without wanting to be self pitying or anything,
Speaker 4: it's some of the best conversations I have about this
Speaker 4: kind of thing is with my Muslim friends and my
Speaker 4: Christian friends and my Catholic friends, people who are of
Speaker 4: deep faith, and they are always the first person to
Speaker 4: reach out.
Speaker 1: They always always.
Speaker 6: And I think that the in some ways.
Speaker 5: This made me think of christ Church, and that the
Speaker 5: innocence of being in a place of worship and an
Speaker 5: attack based on faith in that in that moment, which
Speaker 5: was just so horrific, I think that speaks to we
Speaker 5: are a country founded on multiculturalism and on safety and understandings.
Speaker 5: That's why people Australia.
Speaker 4: You know, my parents and my father as families are
Speaker 4: immigrants from South Africa, and they left because of as
Speaker 4: a political protest against apartheid in the sixties. Because and
Speaker 4: they chose Australia because it was a land of peace
Speaker 4: and tolerance and multiculturalism and respect for people who don't
Speaker 4: share your background or.
Speaker 1: Your faith and on. And that's what's so deeply shocking
Speaker 1: about this right.
Speaker 5: On that I think watching the response unfold on social
Speaker 5: media and watching what is inevitably and frustratingly and anti
Speaker 5: immigration backlash that will then move into Islamophobia and suggest
Speaker 5: that why were they in our cut like you saw
Speaker 5: that come so immediately, and you think that is along
Speaker 5: the same continuum. No one wants to as the hate,
Speaker 5: but as the hate that just led to this massacre.
Speaker 7: Well that's exactly what terrorists want as well. And to
Speaker 7: your earlier question me, I think it's a really interesting one,
Speaker 7: and you made me pause and think about why it
Speaker 7: shook me so deeply, And I think it's because these
Speaker 7: acts of terrorism are designed to make us doubt ourselves
Speaker 7: and to make us doubt that our country can hold together.
Speaker 7: So if you think about nine eleven, that was sort
Speaker 7: of taking aim at the very financial heart of a
Speaker 7: city that basically runs on business and finance. And that's
Speaker 7: why that was such an effective act. The symbolism of
Speaker 7: it and this giant building in a city that is
Speaker 7: known for its skyscrapers, or the London Tube bombings, that
Speaker 7: is a city that runs on the tube.
Speaker 1: That's their arteries of that city.
Speaker 7: And then of course the Bali bombing was striking an
Speaker 7: island which really depends and relies on tourism and the
Speaker 7: idea of people coming there to have a good time
Speaker 7: and to sustain the Balinese economy. This is how terrorism works,
Speaker 7: and so in choosing a beach, you are really also
Speaker 7: trying to get at the very foundations of this society,
Speaker 7: which and what we say is at the beach, everyone
Speaker 7: is equal.
Speaker 1: It's true.
Speaker 4: And today is the eleventh anniversary of the Lin Cafe
Speaker 4: siege and the two people that lost their lives so
Speaker 4: tragically in.
Speaker 1: That terrorist attack.
Speaker 5: And it's only what two years, less than two years
Speaker 5: since Bondai junction and I think Westfield attack, Yeah, the
Speaker 5: Westfield attack, which was it was not terrorists, that was
Speaker 5: not terrorism, that was a loan attacker. But what that
Speaker 5: did to sow the seeds of discomfort within a community
Speaker 5: that you could just be going along doing your shopping
Speaker 5: with your family, but for the grace of God, which
Speaker 5: is of this this feels like that all over again.
Speaker 2: We're going to be back in a moment to talk
Speaker 2: about how you can help and the people who did
Speaker 2: help on the day. The entire world is talking about
Speaker 2: Ahmed al Hmed today. He is the white T shirt guy,
Speaker 2: the man who wrestled the gun from the hands of
Speaker 2: one of the terrorists right as he was aiming it
Speaker 2: at innocent families running to hide from his bullets. Al
Speaker 2: Ahmed is in hospital today. After he took that gun,
Speaker 2: he pointed it at the shooter, but he didn't pull
Speaker 2: the trigger. He put the gun down, he put his
Speaker 2: hands up, and he was under fire from the second
Speaker 2: shooter on the bridge, and he took a bullet in
Speaker 2: the shoulder as the second shooter was shooting from the bridge. Today,
Speaker 2: we've learned a little bit more about Hmed because his cousin,
Speaker 2: who was with him last night, has spoken outside hospital,
Speaker 2: and we found out a few more things about him
Speaker 2: we did.
Speaker 5: We know that he came from Syria more than a
Speaker 5: decade ago, and he's a father to two little girls.
Speaker 5: And there was this really moving detail which I just
Speaker 5: think illustrates the connection between so many communities in US.
Speaker 5: But he was walking through the festival and they offered
Speaker 5: him food and he was sort of on his way
Speaker 5: to get a coffee, but only moments later that community
Speaker 5: was being horrifically shot at.
Speaker 2: HMED's cousin says that that was about ten minutes before
Speaker 2: they found themselves caught up in all this, and he
Speaker 2: says that Ahmed said, just before he went into tackle
Speaker 2: the gunment, he told his cousin, I'm going to die.
Speaker 3: He said, I want my family to know that I
Speaker 3: went down trying to save lives.
Speaker 2: It's incredibly moving, and you know, the world is, as
Speaker 2: I've said, the world is calling him a hero, and
Speaker 2: I think this probably fewer times that that word is
Speaker 2: more apt. Yeah, his actions and the fact that, as
Speaker 2: you said before, Jesse, that it was caught on films
Speaker 2: so clearly have absolutely stunned the world. There are articles
Speaker 2: about that man in British newspapers all over American side.
Speaker 7: And look, even Donald Trump mentioned him, and he's really
Speaker 7: I think the whole world's talking about him today.
Speaker 1: I mean, what a hero it was.
Speaker 4: So you know, they always say when you're feeling absolutely despair,
Speaker 4: look for the helpers and you need to have your
Speaker 4: spirits lifted. Look to the people who run towards the danger.
Speaker 4: And armad al Ahmed there's no one who could. He
Speaker 4: had no experience with guns. He just was a passer by.
Speaker 4: He wasn't there for the Hunuker celebrations. He just was
Speaker 4: at the beach.
Speaker 7: People are saying it's the most extraordinary footage they've ever seen.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I heard ABC News were speculating that he
Speaker 5: must have been a plane clothed.
Speaker 6: Police officer. They kept saying, I thought, for.
Speaker 4: Someone trained in the army, he didn't seem like I
Speaker 4: had never picked up a gun before. But I was
Speaker 4: so moved by the way he put the gun down
Speaker 4: because he was being shot at, and the footage of
Speaker 4: after he disarmed that man who's sort of cow as
Speaker 4: if to say, don't shoot me.
Speaker 5: But the fact that the average Australian would not even
Speaker 5: know what way to hold a gun, and that was
Speaker 5: the thing. He didn't know what to do with it
Speaker 5: because he had probably never had a gun in his
Speaker 5: hands before.
Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll hear, well, we will hear his story.
Speaker 2: I'm sure when he gets out of hospital. His family
Speaker 2: been speaking to the media a little bit today and
Speaker 2: saying that they're just obviously hoping for a quick recovery
Speaker 2: for him. The thing is is that his act of
Speaker 2: bravery it kind of shone a light on all across
Speaker 2: that beach in that moment, all the little acts of
Speaker 2: bravery that were happening. There were people who were bystandards.
Speaker 2: There were surf life savers sprinting for first aid kits,
Speaker 2: there were surfers carrying people on their boards as stretchers.
Speaker 2: And then the paramedics come and they are running into
Speaker 2: a live fire situation and yes it's their job, but
Speaker 2: my god, and they are They said that cops were
Speaker 2: jumping into the ambulances and driving them to hospitals with
Speaker 2: the the paramedics could keep working in the back because
Speaker 2: it was all hands on deck. Unprecedented. We've said that
Speaker 2: a lot today is that Australia is supposed to be
Speaker 2: safe and this isn't supposed to happen here. And generally speaking,
Speaker 2: it doesn't happen here, you know. So it's not like
Speaker 2: we've got forces of people who are dealing with this
Speaker 2: every day. And the level of bravery from Ahmed, from
Speaker 2: the other people on the beach, the parents who are
Speaker 2: standing in front of their kids, the husband who died
Speaker 2: protecting his wife from gunfire, the shopkeepers who let people
Speaker 2: run in and hide in their back I mean this.
Speaker 3: It has become like a cliche.
Speaker 2: To say look for the helpers, look for the light,
Speaker 2: as we were saying, But it matters. I think it
Speaker 2: really matters because you can you can feel so dark and.
Speaker 4: So and that's what is. It's about the triumph of
Speaker 4: light over darkness. It's about that good will triumph over evil.
Speaker 7: In that same video, I was struck by two other helpers.
Speaker 7: There was a man who threw an object, yeah, a
Speaker 7: powering terrorist, and I just her axposed ere and then
Speaker 7: I was very moved by this as armored el armored
Speaker 7: gingerly put the gun by a tree. Another person ran up,
Speaker 7: I think, just to be by his side because they
Speaker 7: could see that he was in this extraordinary situation. And
Speaker 7: the two people, I think it was another man, the
Speaker 7: two men hid together behind a tree.
Speaker 5: And what's remarkable is that that would have been all
Speaker 5: on instinct, right, And you see people who were at
Speaker 5: the beach will have had a range of different responses
Speaker 5: to what happened, whether it was that they froze or
Speaker 5: they ran, or they fought. And so to see that
Speaker 5: man working on instinct, that's like the majority of people
Speaker 5: are good and they and they want to help. And
Speaker 5: we're seeing that today with Lifeblood, who has said they've
Speaker 5: said one thing you can do is donate blood that
Speaker 5: came directly from the premiere and for some people who
Speaker 5: need blood, they might need one hundred donations, right.
Speaker 4: And they are accused as a Red Blood bank across
Speaker 4: the road from our office, and they're accused everywhere. There
Speaker 4: are mobile blood banks being set up because it's going
Speaker 4: into the holiday season, which already is a really tough
Speaker 4: time of.
Speaker 1: High need for the blood bank.
Speaker 4: Also the doctors and the nurses that were called into
Speaker 4: hospitals yesterday, all the first responders who ran towards the danger, and.
Speaker 5: Many who you know within I know through the community,
Speaker 5: many whom are Jewish and are then dealing with this
Speaker 5: personal trauma and then having to act and being called on.
Speaker 5: There were messages going around that New South Wales health
Speaker 5: workers were kind of going to just as you say,
Speaker 5: all hands on deck, but to see the lines around
Speaker 5: the corner and lifeblood to say, okay, we're being inundated,
Speaker 5: try and book in. It's just such a reminder that
Speaker 5: if you have any time off over this period, that
Speaker 5: it is moments like this that there needs to be
Speaker 5: supply because they are sending it across states.
Speaker 1: And that all time to do.
Speaker 5: It's such a practical good thing to do, especially if
Speaker 5: you have own negative blood.
Speaker 6: So that's something that people can do today.
Speaker 2: They were saying that even if you can't get in today,
Speaker 2: you can keep going.
Speaker 1: It was all booked out today.
Speaker 4: I jumped on last night and I couldn't get in
Speaker 4: until sort of Wednesday or Thursday this week.
Speaker 2: The local member for went with a leg responder also
Speaker 2: encourages people to donate to local mental health charities, particularly
Speaker 2: for use to deal with some of the trauma of
Speaker 2: the community, obviously the community of people who were at
Speaker 2: the Hannock event, but also the trauma of the community
Speaker 2: of people who are at the beach that day and
Speaker 2: who have witnessed.
Speaker 3: All of this.
Speaker 1: And the Bondai community in general.
Speaker 5: Said to me or I've got my whole you know,
Speaker 5: hundreds of Catholics messaging sending love to the Jewish side
Speaker 5: of the family and how they would really like to
Speaker 5: just all stand outside the synagogues this week and just
Speaker 5: make sure that you know, like and how do you
Speaker 5: ensure that there's there's safety.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that means a lot, you know, that means a lot.
Speaker 4: And also just be careful of words. Words. You know,
Speaker 4: words are not violence, but they can lead to violence.
Speaker 4: And there's been a lot of very inflammatory language about
Speaker 4: Jewish people over the last few years, particularly on social media, and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's.
Speaker 4: Just the result those things can sometimes lead to horrifying actions,
Speaker 4: as we saw yesterday.
Speaker 6: Out Louders.
Speaker 2: Obviously, we're recording this at lunchtime on Monday, and as
Speaker 2: we're talking details are coming out, so we haven't been
Speaker 2: sharing names of the victims because we know there is
Speaker 2: much more to come heartbreakingly, but as we're recording this,
Speaker 2: the New South Wales Authority say that fifteen people have
Speaker 2: been killed, plus one of the gunmen. The dead include
Speaker 2: a ten year old girl. The two gunmen are a
Speaker 2: father and son. Forty two people were taken into hospital,
Speaker 2: including two police officers who remain in a critical condition.
Speaker 2: Those are the facts as we record this now. But
Speaker 2: what's behind those facts, of course, is so much pain
Speaker 2: and fear and heartbreak. And I just want all of
Speaker 2: the out louders to know that from all of us,
Speaker 2: we're sending everybody affected an enormous amount of love and
Speaker 2: if this day is particularly heavy for you, please.
Speaker 3: Know that help is available.
Speaker 2: You can call life Line on thirteen eleven fourteen and
Speaker 2: we're going to be back in your ears with something
Speaker 2: a little bit more like usual programming tomorrow and for
Speaker 2: the rest of the week.
Speaker 3: Goodbye, out loud As, We love you.