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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. I would never like

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Speaker 2: I would never. I would never. You've never stopped as

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Speaker 2: a famous person, have I ever?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yes, Adam Goods. I did. Adam Goods. I made

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Speaker 2: him post for a picture with my child once. That's true.

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Speaker 2: I didn't. But I think you read the room. You

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Speaker 2: work it out. Hello, and welcome to Mama Mia out loud.

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Speaker 2: It's what women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the

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Speaker 2: twenty third of April. I'm Holly Wayne, right, and I've

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Speaker 2: got my oh g's with me today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm mea Friedman and I'm putting the ass back

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Speaker 1: into podcasting.

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Speaker 3: Podcast When you say that, I'm Jesse Stevens and I

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Speaker 3: am also back.

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Speaker 2: Okay. On today's show, where does a person end in

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Speaker 2: a brand? Begin? Remy Beata, Robbie Williams and what celebrities

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Speaker 2: oh their followers? So ten days from an election and

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Speaker 2: in the middle of an onslaught of devastating headlines about

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Speaker 2: violence against women, what do we expect from our leaders?

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Speaker 2: And there's a new celebrity couple that no one had

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Speaker 2: on their Bingo card for twenty twenty five. What do

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Speaker 2: Liz and Billy tell us about having a type? But first,

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Speaker 2: in case you missed it, I doubt you missed it,

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Speaker 2: but possibly you did. The Pope died on Monday. Pope

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Speaker 2: Francis had been the head of the Catholic Church for

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Speaker 2: eleven years and his death is probably one of the

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Speaker 2: few things that can stop the media. It was the

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Speaker 2: only story for good twenty four hours. In fact, Jesse,

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Speaker 2: you were on the project that night. Did everything get

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Speaker 2: thrown out?

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Speaker 3: Yes, we were all prepared for the show. We were

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Speaker 3: doing a run through, and we got news in our

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Speaker 3: ears that he died about fifteen minutes before we went live.

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Speaker 3: And it was fascinating from the perspective of sitting on

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Speaker 3: a news desk and having someone in your ear the

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Speaker 3: whole time, and trying to cross and get real time information,

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Speaker 3: and watching the way that Rome reacted because there was

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Speaker 3: a camera just outside the Vatican, and so watching the

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Speaker 3: people go and mourn and pay their respects because he'd

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Speaker 3: just been on Sunday, he had just addressed people, they'd

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Speaker 3: actually seen him on Friday, he'd seen JD Vans.

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Speaker 2: Lucky enough to meet the Vice president.

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Speaker 3: Of the USA, who he had been very critical of.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, with apologies to theologian scholars everywhere, I I'm going

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Speaker 2: to offer you a quick explainer of what happens next,

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Speaker 2: what's happening right now now. The reason that I'm the

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Speaker 2: chosen one for this is not because I'm the Catholic one,

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Speaker 2: that's Jesse, but because I'm the only one who's watched conclave.

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Speaker 3: And every table, every family, every group of people that

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Speaker 3: have been sitting around. It has taken ten seconds for

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Speaker 3: someone to go, well, I did see conclicts. And then

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Speaker 3: they tell you exactly what's going.

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Speaker 2: To happen next. And that's the Oscar nominated movie about

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Speaker 2: this process, and it's actually very very good. But then

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Speaker 2: it happening now, it's happening right now, right now, like

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Speaker 2: about to happen, or happening right now. They're gathering, they're

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Speaker 2: going in. So what happens is the news of the

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Speaker 2: popes passing all the big wigs or in this case

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Speaker 2: big as cardinals were because fled to Rome from all

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Speaker 2: over the world. Right because there are big you know,

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Speaker 2: Catholic congregations obviously all over the world.

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Speaker 1: So they probably had a bag packed left at the door.

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Speaker 2: Yea, because obviously, although Pope Francis, as you said, seemed

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Speaker 2: okay in the last few days, his health issues have

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Speaker 2: been going on for a while, so they would have

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Speaker 2: been kind of prepared. They all go to the Vatican,

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Speaker 2: and some of them are already there, of course, to

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Speaker 2: get sequestered like a jewelry. So they go into lockdown.

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Speaker 3: Right, there's an Aussie who's going, who's like in his

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Speaker 3: mid forties or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's one hundred and thirty five cardinals who go,

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Speaker 2: who are actually allowed to vote because you can't vote

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Speaker 2: if you're over eighty.

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Speaker 1: Any women, No, of course not.

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Speaker 2: There are nuns there, just asking if you watch conclave,

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Speaker 2: you know there are nuns there because they're bringing them

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Speaker 2: their dinners and stuff. Anywhere they arrive at the Vatican,

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Speaker 2: they get sequested like a jury, locked away, no phones,

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Speaker 2: no TVs, no newspapers until they can all agree on

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Speaker 2: who's getting the job. They'll sleep and eat in a hostel,

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Speaker 2: like a little hostel that's purpose built for this. And

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Speaker 2: presumably they would all like to get back to their

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Speaker 2: Snapchat as soon as possible. So let's make this efficient right.

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Speaker 2: So it's like survivor. It's very much so like survival

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Speaker 2: because every day, twice a day, they vote right, and

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Speaker 2: you've got to get to a two thirds majority. So

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Speaker 2: they go in in the morning, they do their prayers,

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Speaker 2: they have their brecky, then they sit down and they

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Speaker 2: write on a piece of paper, I want Bob to win.

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Speaker 3: Is it like a jury in that you then have

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Speaker 3: to deliberate and then I have to convince you yes.

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Speaker 2: So what happens is they vote right. It goes to

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Speaker 2: the front of the you know, the big fancy room,

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Speaker 2: and someone reads them out and there's like, oh I

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Speaker 2: haven't majority, Oh damn. Then they go away and that's

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Speaker 2: when the hustling starts.

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Speaker 1: Right, So all the lobbying, all the soft diplomacy, very.

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Speaker 2: Much like those glorious years when we got a new

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Speaker 2: prime minister every five minutes. This is politics, and whoever

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Speaker 2: comes up on top will be the one who could

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Speaker 2: whip the numbers. So they'll be a conservative faction, they'll

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Speaker 2: be a progressive faction. There'll be factions split along geographic lines,

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Speaker 2: and there'll be a faction that was kind of massaged

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Speaker 2: by Pope Francis because you do get to stack the

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Speaker 2: voting cardinals a little bit. As a pope, you get

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Speaker 2: to choose a few because there have to be some

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Speaker 2: perks to being the pope, right, So all these cardinals

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Speaker 2: are then going away and whispering corners and saying, well,

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Speaker 2: obviously Billy only got three votes, so he might be out.

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Speaker 2: But where do Billy's votes go? You know? And the

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Speaker 2: cardinals write their names down, They go to the front.

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Speaker 2: They put it in a pot that looks just like

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Speaker 2: the cauldron on Survivor Mia. Sorry if I'm blinding anyone

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Speaker 2: with jargon here, and then they get burned and they

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Speaker 2: put some chemicals in the fire and if it comes

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Speaker 2: up black, as we know, no result.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean?

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Speaker 2: So the people outside who've gathered, so the chimney goes

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Speaker 2: black smoke, it means we know there's been a vote.

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Speaker 2: They're very secret these votes. They actually sweep the whole

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Speaker 2: building for bugs, listening devices, anything, so you'll never know who.

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Speaker 1: Got How do you change the color of the smoke.

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Speaker 2: There's some chemicals that you's like, oh, I see sprinkle

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Speaker 2: into the fire. And then when somebody reaches the two

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Speaker 2: thirds majority, the smoke goes white and we know, we've

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Speaker 2: got a new post.

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Speaker 3: Who's so lucky that you did your PhD on?

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Speaker 2: But who's the host, Like, who's one of the big bosses?

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Speaker 2: Like there are lots of bosses who are.

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Speaker 1: The front runners.

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Speaker 2: So the leaderboard maya looks a bit like this.

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Speaker 1: The Pope.

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Speaker 2: Louis Antonio Tagli is three to one odds because you

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Speaker 2: can do sports betting on bet doesn't seem very heady.

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Speaker 2: Is potentially the first Asian pope. He is strong on

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Speaker 2: social justice issues and he's sixty seven. You have to

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Speaker 2: basically be between the ages of sixty and eighty to

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Speaker 2: be so sixty seven is relatively young. Petrio Poroline four

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Speaker 2: to one odds. He's Italian. He's seen as a bit

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Speaker 2: of a centrist and a bit of a compromise candidate

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Speaker 2: between the progressives and the conservatives. And then there's Peter

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Speaker 2: Erdou six to one. He is a conservative voice from

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Speaker 2: Hungary seventy two, pushing for a return tradition. And then

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Speaker 2: we've got Mateo Marizupi, sixty nine year old Italian and

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Speaker 2: he is really into humanitarian work and advocacy for migrants.

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Speaker 2: So you've got these eyes or lobbying their followers to

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Speaker 2: try and get to be pope.

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Speaker 3: As an Irish Catholic, we obviously, you know, really care

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Speaker 3: about who's going to be the pope and also love

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Speaker 3: a bet. So I would say my money is on

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Speaker 3: Louis who that's who I want?

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Speaker 1: Which one?

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Speaker 3: He is potentially the first Asian pope because Pope Francis

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Speaker 3: was the first Pope who wasn't European.

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Speaker 1: He was South American exactly right.

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Speaker 3: So I just feel like that could be a really

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Speaker 3: cool change in the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 2: The other thing I learned watching Conclave is you get

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Speaker 2: to choose your name when you're pope. So he would

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Speaker 2: not be Pope Louis. He'd choose a same he would be. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he could be whoever he wanted to.

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Speaker 3: You know, I have a saints name. As a Catholic,

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Speaker 3: we choose a saints name. No, I already have one,

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Speaker 3: it's part of my name.

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Speaker 2: What is it?

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Speaker 3: I am jesse An Jemma Stevens, and I chose Saint

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Speaker 3: Jemma because she suffered the stigmata lack, the thing where

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Speaker 3: it's like you're.

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Speaker 2: On the ross, suffering, suffering, suffering. Yeah, I hope you

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Speaker 2: all feel enlightened and please direct your complaints to Ruth's Divine.

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Speaker 2: She is the executive when we were out loud, and

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Speaker 2: she does not watch Conclave, but she's sort of catholic.

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Speaker 2: She makes up.

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Speaker 1: You might have seen some pushback online about a woman

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Speaker 1: called Remy Beta. She's a thirty year old plus size

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Speaker 1: influencer who's recently lost a large amount of weight. Now,

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Speaker 1: her story starts in twenty twenty. Actually, when she started

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Speaker 1: recreating celebrity outfits. She was at that time about her

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Speaker 1: size twenty and these were such great videos because she'd

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Speaker 1: take paparazzi photos of a celebrity that was much smaller

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Speaker 1: than her, and she would recreate an outfit for a

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Speaker 1: woman her size. And then she started filming what she

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Speaker 1: called realistic shopping hall tryons, where she would go to

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Speaker 1: Zara or somewhere like that and she would show what

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Speaker 1: clothes really look like on a larger body, and the

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Speaker 1: tone of the videos were humorous. She's really great content creator,

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Speaker 1: a little bit like Celeste Barber. She sort of took

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Speaker 1: the piss out of the fashion industry, but also took

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Speaker 1: the piss out of herself by trying on things that

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Speaker 1: were really not designed for her. Curves and she built

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Speaker 1: millions of followers like that, and as her audience grew,

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Speaker 1: she was invited to influence her events and she got

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Speaker 1: sponsorship deals with brands. But she never made any secret

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Speaker 1: of the fact that she wasn't happy with her body,

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Speaker 1: and she posted a video in September twenty twenty three

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Speaker 1: where she said she's getting so much body shaming commentary

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Speaker 1: that she wouldn't be sharing any information about her weight

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Speaker 1: going forward. So it wasn't an easy story of her

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Speaker 1: being a body positive plus size influencer, And many people

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Speaker 1: have commented that those two things can both be true.

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Speaker 1: That you want to call the fashion industry to account

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Speaker 1: and society to account, but because of everything that's been

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Speaker 1: internalized and the reaction that you get in the world,

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Speaker 1: you also have very complex feelings about your own body. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, she quietly but very noticeably began

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Speaker 1: to lose a lot of weight, and she blocked anyone

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Speaker 1: that commented on it and didn't speak about it publicly

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Speaker 1: until a couple of weeks ago, when she gave an

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Speaker 1: interview to Chloe kadash In on her podcast and she

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Speaker 1: admitted to having weight loss surgery here's some of what

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Speaker 1: Remy said.

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Speaker 4: There was a brand a new surgery, a newer surgery,

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Speaker 4: which is what I did and what everyone online. Of course,

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Speaker 4: at this point everyone's like, Okay, well she did one

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Speaker 4: of the shots, or she did the sleeve or something like.

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Speaker 4: No one guessed this because it's not a known thing.

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Speaker 4: Now I feel like I've had this pause on myself

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Speaker 4: of like, I don't know what to post. I don't

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Speaker 4: know what to say. I don't know what to do

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Speaker 4: until this is out there. And I always knew that

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Speaker 4: I would put not just the relationship stuff, the surgery,

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Speaker 4: that everything I knew would be put out there. I

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Speaker 4: didn't know that it would affect me this much by

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Speaker 4: not talking about it. And I think it's just the

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Speaker 4: person I am, Like I still need to be somewhat

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Speaker 4: of an open person. That's how I am, and I

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Speaker 4: don't want to feel like I'm living and walking on eggshells.

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Speaker 4: And I do have a lot to say and I

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Speaker 4: do have a lot to share while still keeping those boundaries.

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Speaker 1: So what do people are actually angry about what they

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Speaker 1: say they're angry. I mean, different people are angry about

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Speaker 1: different things. But the main part of the criticism and

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Speaker 1: there's been big backlash against her. They say it's not

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Speaker 1: because she lost the weight, but because she wasn't transparent

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Speaker 1: and didn't tell them what was happening all along the way.

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Speaker 1: Rachel Richards writes a newsletter called highly Flammable, which is great,

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Speaker 1: and she wrote about it this week, and she pointed

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Speaker 1: out that audiences don't see content creators as people. They

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Speaker 1: view them as brands, and they think of themselves as

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Speaker 1: a shareholder in that brand, which is kind of chilling.

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Speaker 2: So what you mean in this context then, is that,

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Speaker 2: so Remy Beata was a brand. She had all these

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Speaker 2: followers who probably a large proportion of them maybe were

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Speaker 2: plus size, and found her inspirational and instructional and all

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Speaker 2: those things. And now she's changed her product, as it were,

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Speaker 2: and they feel like she has somehow tricked them.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so they claim that it's not the fact that

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Speaker 1: she's even changed the product, but that she didn't disclose

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Speaker 1: when she had the surgery and didn't take them on

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Speaker 1: the journey all the way along. And we've talked about

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Speaker 1: parasocial relationships before and how they can be problematic because

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Speaker 1: you feel like you know somebody and then when that

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Speaker 1: person cuts off some of the information to you, you

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Speaker 1: can feel quite angry or quite betrayed. We saw it

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Speaker 1: happen with Heather Armstrong who was the og Mummy blogger,

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Speaker 1: and she posted about her family a lot and had

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Speaker 1: a blog called Deuce. And when she got divorced and

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Speaker 1: didn't tell her followers exactly why she was getting divorced

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Speaker 1: and sort of pulled back, they turned on her and

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Speaker 1: she never really recovered from that. She took her life

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Speaker 1: a few years ago, but she never really recovered. Her

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Speaker 1: brand never really recovered because it was this idea of

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Speaker 1: entitlement that we made you successful, Therefore you work for us,

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Speaker 1: almost like a local member, a politician who represents their constituents,

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Speaker 1: and they feel entitled to answers and information.

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Speaker 3: And it's like if they were a brand, if they

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Speaker 3: were a product, then they might want their money back, right, yeah,

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Speaker 3: But these people have often never exchanged any money, so

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Speaker 3: what they want back is an interesting gay.

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Speaker 1: I want back, I want my investment, I.

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Speaker 3: Want my energy, my admiration, I want an apology. I

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Speaker 3: think that you owe me something. Because this idea of

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Speaker 3: people as brands is new, and Naomi Klein has written

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Speaker 3: about this at length and It's fascinating what she says,

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Speaker 3: because the second a person becomes a brand, it means

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Speaker 3: that they can no longer evolve. There is no opportunity

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Speaker 3: for change. A brand is a promise. A brand is

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Speaker 3: like even think Coca Cola. People are not Coca Cola.

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Speaker 1: We are not like it when they change their formula.

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Speaker 3: Well, exactly right, And it's like Coca cola is a thing,

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Speaker 3: it's not a human being. Probably, what I'd say is

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Speaker 3: that to give a little bit more agency to the

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Speaker 3: influencer of all of this, influencers do profit off the

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Speaker 3: brand model. The idea that it's just the Internet turning

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Speaker 3: you into a brand isn't true. We're turning ourselves into brands. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the same way, and we are making money off it.

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Speaker 1: And you almost have to be a brand to survive

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Speaker 1: in this creator economy and this attention economy, certainly to

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Speaker 1: build a following.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, she had some choices there about how to

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Speaker 2: handle what she was doing. Because if she had built

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Speaker 2: a substantial brand around the fact that her body looked

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Speaker 2: a certain way and she was monetizing it, and she'd

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Speaker 2: made a whatever fortune for herself.

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Speaker 4: Which.

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Speaker 2: But whatever, right, So she's created something and then she

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Speaker 2: is changing that problem. She had some choices. She could

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Speaker 2: have gone, I'm going offline for six months or a year,

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Speaker 2: you're not going to see me. Or she could have gone,

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Speaker 2: I'm taking you with me. None of those things are owed.

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Speaker 2: Or she go and do something else, you know, go

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Speaker 2: and do something else. Entirely, your only career options in

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Speaker 2: the world are not being an influencer.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: But the thing is is, although I don't have any

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Speaker 2: truck with the idea of people being mad with her

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Speaker 2: for making a very personal decision to change her body,

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Speaker 2: I also don't necessarily think that it's fair for her

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Speaker 2: to be annoyed with people for being irritated by her

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Speaker 2: that their deal they've made with her is now changed.

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Speaker 1: I don't think she's annoyed. She said, I had no

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Speaker 1: idea what this operation would be like and the recovery

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Speaker 1: from it mentally, emotionally, physically, And she said, I'm so

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Speaker 1: upside down about it all, like I'm in a body,

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Speaker 1: a different body, I'm in the world. I'm so processing

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Speaker 1: it still. I didn't know what to even say.

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Speaker 3: If you are looking at someone else's body, someone else's behavior,

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Speaker 3: someone else's attitude to their own body, to give you

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Speaker 3: confidence that's going to break your heart, like in the

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Speaker 3: same way that investing in a brand or believing that

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Speaker 3: someone is a brand that like they're going to let

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Speaker 3: you down. Everyone's gonna let you down because they are

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Speaker 3: going to change. And I read a comment that was like,

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Speaker 3: it's almost akin to your favorite TV show changing genres.

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Speaker 3: And if they were to do that, if Succession were

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Speaker 3: to come out and be a horror show.

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Speaker 2: When Beyonce does a country album, yeah, exactly, I don't

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Speaker 2: want countries from Beyonce.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and the audience gets to choose that. I think

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Speaker 3: that the difference is the level of vitriol and the demand.

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Speaker 1: I think the entitlement's interesting too, because she was saying,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what I think about it. I'm not

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Speaker 1: ready to unpack this in real time, and.

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Speaker 2: Yet she says that on a podcast with Chloe Kardashian,

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Speaker 2: So come on, I'm a little bit cynical about it,

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Speaker 2: Like she literally could live a private life. I'm not

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Speaker 2: criticizing this woman, I know. So this isn't all or

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Speaker 2: nothing for me. I literally had never heard her name

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Speaker 2: to it, So I'm not just based on purely what

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Speaker 2: you've told me. I have all the sympathy in the

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Speaker 2: world for her to do whatever she wants to do.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I thought you were one thing and now or another,

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Speaker 2: and then for the person at the center of that

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Speaker 2: to be like, this is so unfairs. She could go

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Speaker 2: do something else.

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Speaker 1: I don't think she's saying it's so unfair.

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Speaker 2: She might not be saying sorry, she might not be

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Speaker 2: saying that, But I mean, as a concept, you can't

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Speaker 2: control everybody else's reaction.

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Speaker 1: Of course not, but I think that this is a

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Speaker 1: whole new world, Like she didn't mean to become an influencer.

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Speaker 1: Like influencers are a fairly new profession, and I guess

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Speaker 1: in some ways their role models. And we experience this

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Speaker 1: as content creators as well. Sometimes you put something out,

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Speaker 1: you create content and put it out in the world,

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Speaker 1: and dealing with everybody else's reaction to what you've put

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Speaker 1: out in the world is a whole other thing.

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Speaker 3: Because a brand, Naomi client says, being a brand means

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Speaker 3: to create a self that is at a distance from ourself,

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Speaker 3: a self to be consumed by others. A brand is

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Speaker 3: not what you are. A brand is how others see you.

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Speaker 3: So she was being seen as something that she wasn't

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Speaker 3: even It's like how we see people has way more

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Speaker 3: to do with us and what we're projecting.

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Speaker 2: It's also about the aspiration though, right, because being famous

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Speaker 2: on the internet is a modern aspiration and what you

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Speaker 2: see over and over again, and this story seems to

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Speaker 2: be another version of this, and we've all experienced this

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Speaker 2: in different ways. But what you see happening over and

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Speaker 2: over again is somebody will come out, you know, rise

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Speaker 2: to great follower numbers on whatever platform they're on, and

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Speaker 2: everybody's excited about them because they're so fresh and revealing

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Speaker 2: and authentic and all those things. Then everybody discovers the

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Speaker 2: cost of that, which is enormous.

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Speaker 1: Americans call back.

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Speaker 2: You build an audience by engaging with your audience, right,

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Speaker 2: That's how you do it, literally, And then suddenly that engagement,

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Speaker 2: you realize that's a full time job. It is exhausting

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Speaker 2: taking on other people's opinions all the time, and you

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Speaker 2: have to put up with people saying awful shit to you.

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Speaker 2: Women who live in bigger bodies online cops so much abuse,

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Speaker 2: even if they might be profiting from it. In Averted commerce.

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Speaker 2: So you see over and over again that people it happens,

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Speaker 2: and then people go, I can't do this anymore, and

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Speaker 2: they get off and there's a new.

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Speaker 3: Way, speaking of the cost. Did you see Robbie Williams's

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Speaker 3: post on Instagram this week?

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Speaker 2: I thought it was so.

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Speaker 3: Eloquence and insightful, and it was about having members of

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Speaker 3: the public ask for selfies and how he grapples with

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Speaker 3: whether or not it's his duty. So he wrote, there's

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Speaker 3: a kind of unspoken law as a celebrity, you should

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Speaker 3: be accessible twenty four to seven. Greet all strangers like

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Speaker 3: you're the mayor of the best town anyone's ever visited.

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Speaker 3: Make sure their wishes are met, whatever they are. Otherwise

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Speaker 3: you're a And then he used the C word and

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Speaker 3: he said that the assumption is that these people are

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Speaker 3: what built you like and then for you to get

404
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Speaker 3: over want them away. Well, he says, not necessarily, because

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Speaker 3: a lot of the people asking for a photo couldn't

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Speaker 3: name one of his albums. And really he's the Big

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Speaker 3: Ben is how he says it, like you just want

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Speaker 3: to come and get a photo with a landmark.

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Speaker 2: But I'm not the Big Ben.

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Speaker 3: I'm a human being who there is a cost.

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Speaker 1: I'm a small Robbie.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and like it's so true. It's like every time

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Speaker 3: someone comes up and do we have a number. I've

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Speaker 3: been in the situation where I've seen a famous person

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Speaker 3: walk past and I've gone, oh, do.

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Speaker 2: I ask for selfie?

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna regret no, So do what I did. When

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Speaker 1: I saw Robbie Williams at the Actor Awards. I got

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Speaker 1: out my phone and I sawreptitiously he was in a

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Speaker 1: public place, but I sareptitiously filmed him walking paste that's

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Speaker 1: and sent it to all my.

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Speaker 3: Friends because how often should that happen in a single day? Right,

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Speaker 3: like Robbie's walking through his life?

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Speaker 1: Does he carpet?

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Speaker 3: That's different? That's different. I'm talking about I'm at my

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Speaker 3: local Westfield and someone walks past me, right, and I go, oh,

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Speaker 3: I really like admire that person. That person hearing that

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Speaker 3: I admire them not interesting for them a selfie? Like

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Speaker 3: which is the new autograph? Do you ask for it?

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Speaker 3: But how much does that person owe us to constantly engage?

431
00:20:19,182 --> 00:20:22,581
Speaker 3: Constantly be Robbie Williams? Because I was thinking about it

432
00:20:22,621 --> 00:20:25,101
Speaker 3: in terms of the service industry. Right when I walk

433
00:20:25,141 --> 00:20:27,701
Speaker 3: into a shop. That person is polite to me and

434
00:20:27,742 --> 00:20:30,022
Speaker 3: puts on a smile even when they're not feeling it.

435
00:20:30,581 --> 00:20:33,741
Speaker 3: But that person then clocks off. They then get to

436
00:20:33,782 --> 00:20:36,302
Speaker 3: go home, and they get to go to Woollies with

437
00:20:36,381 --> 00:20:36,982
Speaker 3: their head down.

438
00:20:37,101 --> 00:20:38,942
Speaker 2: He gets to go back to his mansion that all

439
00:20:38,942 --> 00:20:39,861
Speaker 2: the fan's paid for.

440
00:20:40,022 --> 00:20:42,141
Speaker 3: No, but he's on the phone, he talked about it.

441
00:20:42,141 --> 00:20:44,662
Speaker 3: He's on the phone to his mother who's got dementia,

442
00:20:44,821 --> 00:20:47,542
Speaker 3: and he's talking to his wife about his dad who's

443
00:20:47,581 --> 00:20:51,141
Speaker 3: got Parkinson's. And we have the right in our minds

444
00:20:51,141 --> 00:20:53,261
Speaker 3: as a public to stop him at any moment and

445
00:20:53,381 --> 00:20:54,661
Speaker 3: demand an interaction.

446
00:20:54,821 --> 00:20:56,861
Speaker 2: I don't. I would never, Like I would never.

447
00:20:57,222 --> 00:20:57,581
Speaker 1: I would.

448
00:20:57,661 --> 00:21:00,502
Speaker 2: Now, you've never stopped this famous person. Have I ever?

449
00:21:01,101 --> 00:21:01,262
Speaker 1: No?

450
00:21:01,661 --> 00:21:06,182
Speaker 2: But I I don't know. Oh yes, Adam Goods, I did,

451
00:21:06,222 --> 00:21:08,061
Speaker 2: Adam Woods, I've made him post for a picture with

452
00:21:08,101 --> 00:21:09,581
Speaker 2: my child once. That's true.

453
00:21:09,661 --> 00:21:10,061
Speaker 1: I didn't.

454
00:21:10,341 --> 00:21:12,782
Speaker 2: But I think you read the room, you work it out.

455
00:21:13,302 --> 00:21:15,422
Speaker 2: I would never if Robbie Williams was on my plane,

456
00:21:15,462 --> 00:21:18,061
Speaker 2: I would have a conniption, because you know, he's very

457
00:21:18,101 --> 00:21:20,822
Speaker 2: famous to me being an English person. But I wouldn't

458
00:21:20,821 --> 00:21:23,221
Speaker 2: bother him. No, I would absolutely not bother him. But

459
00:21:23,742 --> 00:21:26,701
Speaker 2: and I know I sound like a terrible person. I

460
00:21:26,901 --> 00:21:29,022
Speaker 2: do a little bit think it's the price of fame.

461
00:21:29,141 --> 00:21:31,662
Speaker 2: I do like I think for movie star and it's

462
00:21:31,742 --> 00:21:33,701
Speaker 2: very different. Now we were just about influences, and I

463
00:21:33,702 --> 00:21:36,221
Speaker 2: think that's a bit different somehow, but for movie stars

464
00:21:36,222 --> 00:21:38,981
Speaker 2: and musicians. And maybe it's because I used to have

465
00:21:38,982 --> 00:21:41,782
Speaker 2: a trashy job in Celebrity Max. But they literally did

466
00:21:41,782 --> 00:21:44,302
Speaker 2: build their mansions with your money. They literally did the

467
00:21:44,341 --> 00:21:45,982
Speaker 2: tickets that you paid for to see the thing. And

468
00:21:46,022 --> 00:21:47,782
Speaker 2: I know there was an exchange there. They gave you

469
00:21:47,821 --> 00:21:51,581
Speaker 2: a thing, but disrespecting your fans is not cool.

470
00:21:51,982 --> 00:21:54,502
Speaker 1: The other problem with selfies, though, is it's different to

471
00:21:54,542 --> 00:21:57,702
Speaker 1: an autograph or even just coming to say hello, because

472
00:21:58,942 --> 00:22:01,821
Speaker 1: you don't know what that person else posts on their

473
00:22:01,901 --> 00:22:04,501
Speaker 1: social You don't actually know who that person is. And

474
00:22:04,542 --> 00:22:06,741
Speaker 1: then you've they've got a selfie with your face and

475
00:22:06,782 --> 00:22:09,461
Speaker 1: you're all over their feed next to some very question

476
00:22:09,861 --> 00:22:12,782
Speaker 1: other things. So you know, if you are famous or

477
00:22:12,782 --> 00:22:14,981
Speaker 1: an influencer on your faces, your brand, you do have

478
00:22:15,022 --> 00:22:15,702
Speaker 1: to be careful.

479
00:22:16,782 --> 00:22:19,542
Speaker 3: In a moment with an election ten days away, we

480
00:22:19,581 --> 00:22:26,621
Speaker 3: need to talk about the elephant in the room, a

481
00:22:26,702 --> 00:22:31,141
Speaker 3: national crisis overlooked in both election campaigns, the silence on

482
00:22:31,222 --> 00:22:34,982
Speaker 3: gender based violence this election is dangerous, and the crisis

483
00:22:35,022 --> 00:22:38,861
Speaker 3: costing billions that has barely registered. They are a taste

484
00:22:38,861 --> 00:22:41,302
Speaker 3: of some headlines published over the last few weeks in

485
00:22:41,341 --> 00:22:45,302
Speaker 3: regards to what many are calling Australia's political blind spot.

486
00:22:46,182 --> 00:22:49,182
Speaker 3: T Kim Tran, a forty five year old woman, had

487
00:22:49,222 --> 00:22:51,421
Speaker 3: plans this weekend to attend the Easter Show with her

488
00:22:51,422 --> 00:22:55,861
Speaker 3: two sons, but on Thursday evening, masked men stormed her home.

489
00:22:56,022 --> 00:22:59,101
Speaker 3: They kidnapped her, they assaulted her son, They dragged her

490
00:22:59,141 --> 00:23:01,821
Speaker 3: into a vehicle and then they set that vehicle alight.

491
00:23:02,742 --> 00:23:05,302
Speaker 3: The week before, forty five year old Luise Hunt, a

492
00:23:05,341 --> 00:23:09,101
Speaker 3: domestic violence advocate, died after her family home went up

493
00:23:09,101 --> 00:23:13,182
Speaker 3: in flames. Her husband has been charged. Claire Austin, thirty eight,

494
00:23:13,341 --> 00:23:15,821
Speaker 3: died after attempting to run through a glass door to

495
00:23:15,861 --> 00:23:19,501
Speaker 3: flee an alleged domestic violence incident. These are just some

496
00:23:19,581 --> 00:23:22,341
Speaker 3: of the Australian women who have died this month. Four

497
00:23:22,462 --> 00:23:25,901
Speaker 3: are understood to have died just last week. Yet in

498
00:23:25,942 --> 00:23:28,661
Speaker 3: the first two leaders' debates, there was not a question

499
00:23:28,861 --> 00:23:32,221
Speaker 3: about gender based violence. Now, in the fourth week of

500
00:23:32,262 --> 00:23:35,542
Speaker 3: a five week campaign, labour has released its Commitment to

501
00:23:35,581 --> 00:23:39,502
Speaker 3: Women announcement, so it's spoken about things like tackling financial abuse,

502
00:23:39,861 --> 00:23:44,101
Speaker 3: closing loopholes in tax and social security systems, and boosting

503
00:23:44,222 --> 00:23:49,221
Speaker 3: responses to perpetrators. The coalition wants to toughen bail laws,

504
00:23:49,302 --> 00:23:52,901
Speaker 3: create new offenses for technology facilitated abuse, and invest in

505
00:23:52,982 --> 00:23:58,742
Speaker 3: family support services. Holly, do you understand why Australian women

506
00:23:59,262 --> 00:24:01,182
Speaker 3: are feeling angry at the moment?

507
00:24:01,502 --> 00:24:05,181
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, I do. We had a conversation which we

508
00:24:05,222 --> 00:24:08,701
Speaker 2: will continue to have about whether or not it was

509
00:24:08,742 --> 00:24:12,701
Speaker 2: important for our and Dutton and other senior politicians to

510
00:24:13,381 --> 00:24:18,422
Speaker 2: say something acknowledge this even though, as you've just outlined,

511
00:24:18,581 --> 00:24:21,381
Speaker 2: their policies are working in this sector.

512
00:24:21,462 --> 00:24:21,662
Speaker 1: Right.

513
00:24:21,742 --> 00:24:24,982
Speaker 2: The funding for this sector is, depending on where you sit,

514
00:24:25,262 --> 00:24:29,581
Speaker 2: is either inadequate or not working. But it's a very

515
00:24:29,581 --> 00:24:33,101
Speaker 2: complicated issue. But the reason that women would like to

516
00:24:33,222 --> 00:24:36,141
Speaker 2: see Dutton and alban easy talk about it, and I

517
00:24:36,182 --> 00:24:38,901
Speaker 2: am one of those women I would like that is

518
00:24:38,901 --> 00:24:42,382
Speaker 2: because we know that they individually cannot fix this right.

519
00:24:43,381 --> 00:24:47,941
Speaker 2: But the scale of this problem is so enormous. The

520
00:24:48,061 --> 00:24:49,902
Speaker 2: names that you've just read out in those little bits

521
00:24:49,942 --> 00:24:51,901
Speaker 2: of their stories which are so upsetting, are just the

522
00:24:52,061 --> 00:24:56,022
Speaker 2: tiny tip of the iceberg. Right, Australian police get a

523
00:24:56,022 --> 00:24:58,821
Speaker 2: call about domestic violence every two minutes, every single day.

524
00:24:58,942 --> 00:25:01,022
Speaker 2: They're the people who actually pick up the phone call.

525
00:25:01,502 --> 00:25:04,101
Speaker 2: Every woman listening to this will have been affected in

526
00:25:04,182 --> 00:25:06,782
Speaker 2: some way by this issue. Whenever we talk about it

527
00:25:06,821 --> 00:25:10,142
Speaker 2: on this show, we get overwhelmed by comment about it.

528
00:25:10,502 --> 00:25:12,622
Speaker 2: We know because we've poled Mom and MEA's audience about

529
00:25:12,661 --> 00:25:14,781
Speaker 2: what their top issues are in the election, and this

530
00:25:14,821 --> 00:25:17,742
Speaker 2: comes in in the top four. And the thing is is,

531
00:25:17,782 --> 00:25:21,782
Speaker 2: although there are many segments to this issue. There's prevention

532
00:25:21,982 --> 00:25:25,702
Speaker 2: which is very complicated and contentious but needs to be addressed,

533
00:25:25,742 --> 00:25:29,181
Speaker 2: which is includes things like the cultural issues that we

534
00:25:29,222 --> 00:25:33,061
Speaker 2: often talk about, drugs and alcohol, role modeling. There's legal

535
00:25:33,222 --> 00:25:35,581
Speaker 2: which you are talking about in the Some of the

536
00:25:35,621 --> 00:25:38,422
Speaker 2: campaign promises about what to do about offenders, because women

537
00:25:38,462 --> 00:25:42,141
Speaker 2: get so outraged by hearing that very often offenders have

538
00:25:42,222 --> 00:25:45,222
Speaker 2: had multiple offenses before, or they've breached avio's and it's

539
00:25:45,262 --> 00:25:48,101
Speaker 2: the very vex problem of rehabilitation. And then there's also

540
00:25:48,262 --> 00:25:50,782
Speaker 2: helping the women who are suffering this. So it's a

541
00:25:50,861 --> 00:25:54,702
Speaker 2: very complicated issue and we know that Alban easy standing

542
00:25:54,742 --> 00:25:56,622
Speaker 2: up and talking about and wearing a black tie isn't

543
00:25:56,661 --> 00:25:59,262
Speaker 2: going to fix it, but I want to see their

544
00:25:59,381 --> 00:26:02,542
Speaker 2: acknowledge what is being lost every day. I have heard

545
00:26:02,542 --> 00:26:06,341
Speaker 2: them all talk multiple multiple times about their plans for

546
00:26:06,422 --> 00:26:11,061
Speaker 2: cost of living, for fuel excise, for environmental issues, for

547
00:26:11,141 --> 00:26:13,942
Speaker 2: health and education, and all those things are crucially important.

548
00:26:13,982 --> 00:26:16,022
Speaker 2: They have told me their positions on that one hundred

549
00:26:16,101 --> 00:26:19,221
Speaker 2: times over and over and over in this campaign. It

550
00:26:19,302 --> 00:26:22,502
Speaker 2: isn't enough to just once mention this issue. And I

551
00:26:22,542 --> 00:26:24,982
Speaker 2: wrote ages ago, when the Prime Minister was Scott Morrison,

552
00:26:25,422 --> 00:26:26,782
Speaker 2: that I wanted to see him are in a black

553
00:26:26,821 --> 00:26:29,021
Speaker 2: tie in Parliament and reading out these names. And I

554
00:26:29,061 --> 00:26:30,022
Speaker 2: still feel wow.

555
00:26:31,101 --> 00:26:34,182
Speaker 1: I think what you talk about whole is two things.

556
00:26:34,262 --> 00:26:40,341
Speaker 1: One is the symbolism and the acknowledgment and saying like

557
00:26:40,422 --> 00:26:44,382
Speaker 1: it is a complicated thing to fix. Who knows if

558
00:26:44,381 --> 00:26:46,622
Speaker 1: it can be fixed or not. But I see you,

559
00:26:46,742 --> 00:26:49,982
Speaker 1: I see your fear, I see your despair, I see

560
00:26:50,022 --> 00:26:53,782
Speaker 1: your heartbreak, and I see your fear. It's hard not

561
00:26:53,861 --> 00:26:56,861
Speaker 1: to feel despair because like, what can they do? Like

562
00:26:56,901 --> 00:26:59,181
Speaker 1: there are already laws that say you can't kill women,

563
00:26:59,581 --> 00:27:01,941
Speaker 1: right or you can't kill men. It's not like we

564
00:27:02,022 --> 00:27:04,782
Speaker 1: don't have laws. But I keep thinking about what Annabel

565
00:27:04,861 --> 00:27:08,621
Speaker 1: Krab famously said many years ago on this issue, which is,

566
00:27:09,141 --> 00:27:12,621
Speaker 1: if more people had been taken by sharks in the

567
00:27:12,661 --> 00:27:16,861
Speaker 1: last four weeks, we would be draining the oceans. And

568
00:27:16,942 --> 00:27:22,461
Speaker 1: yet nobody seems to be able to even acknowledge. What

569
00:27:22,502 --> 00:27:26,101
Speaker 1: I've noticed is that men seem to feel that if

570
00:27:26,341 --> 00:27:29,061
Speaker 1: they're not actually doing it, it's kind of got nothing

571
00:27:29,101 --> 00:27:29,702
Speaker 1: to do with them.

572
00:27:29,982 --> 00:27:31,861
Speaker 2: I feel like every time we ask, and we've had

573
00:27:31,901 --> 00:27:34,502
Speaker 2: this conversation often on the show and in different places

574
00:27:34,742 --> 00:27:37,061
Speaker 2: where we say we want to hear men talk about it,

575
00:27:37,101 --> 00:27:41,102
Speaker 2: we get pushed back. Every time, it gets pushed back

576
00:27:41,141 --> 00:27:43,582
Speaker 2: onto our lapse of them saying, well, I'm not doing it,

577
00:27:43,581 --> 00:27:45,021
Speaker 2: It's not my problem. What do you want me to do?

578
00:27:45,462 --> 00:27:47,542
Speaker 2: What I want you to do is acknowledge the scale

579
00:27:47,581 --> 00:27:49,982
Speaker 2: of this, because what I see when I look around

580
00:27:50,422 --> 00:27:53,702
Speaker 2: the people who are counting dead women in inverted commas

581
00:27:54,141 --> 00:27:57,262
Speaker 2: are women. The media organizations who are doing things with

582
00:27:57,341 --> 00:28:00,342
Speaker 2: campaigns like Mamma Mia does her name was to humanize

583
00:28:00,462 --> 00:28:02,861
Speaker 2: tell the stories behind these statistics and these names that

584
00:28:02,861 --> 00:28:05,462
Speaker 2: we read about the paper. A very often female lad

585
00:28:05,901 --> 00:28:08,862
Speaker 2: women are pushing this issue. Women talk about this issue,

586
00:28:08,942 --> 00:28:12,621
Speaker 2: female politicians read out the names of domestic violence victims

587
00:28:12,661 --> 00:28:16,661
Speaker 2: in Parliament and we just want them to do and acknowledge.

588
00:28:16,661 --> 00:28:19,381
Speaker 3: How to see this is, I suppose it's not quite

589
00:28:19,462 --> 00:28:22,502
Speaker 3: how I see it, and I've been interrogating why I've

590
00:28:22,542 --> 00:28:27,302
Speaker 3: struggled with some of this commentary and a demand for

591
00:28:27,901 --> 00:28:31,182
Speaker 3: acknowledge it, acknowledge it, and I actually really really understand it.

592
00:28:31,782 --> 00:28:34,582
Speaker 3: But I suppose that I struggle with the difference between

593
00:28:34,702 --> 00:28:39,622
Speaker 3: symbolism and lip service and actually practically helping and addressing

594
00:28:39,702 --> 00:28:42,542
Speaker 3: the issue, right because a lot of people go, why

595
00:28:42,542 --> 00:28:44,941
Speaker 3: don't you say something? What do you want them to say? Like,

596
00:28:45,142 --> 00:28:49,981
Speaker 3: obviously it is such an enormous tragedy that can't be

597
00:28:50,022 --> 00:28:53,022
Speaker 3: done justice by a few words by Anthony Abenezy. But

598
00:28:53,502 --> 00:28:57,262
Speaker 3: let's remember that last year he announced the National Plan

599
00:28:57,342 --> 00:28:59,702
Speaker 3: to end Violence against Women and Children four point seven

600
00:28:59,782 --> 00:29:04,262
Speaker 3: billion dollars. Right, These politicians, both sides Scott Morrison, had

601
00:29:04,502 --> 00:29:08,741
Speaker 3: incredible announcements and resources that were announced to support this issue,

602
00:29:08,782 --> 00:29:12,902
Speaker 3: So it's not true to say that they're not working

603
00:29:12,982 --> 00:29:16,982
Speaker 3: towards a solution. I feel as though with this issue,

604
00:29:17,062 --> 00:29:21,742
Speaker 3: sometimes advocates and campaigners who do tireless, tireless work want

605
00:29:21,782 --> 00:29:24,622
Speaker 3: to tell one story. They want to tell one story,

606
00:29:24,661 --> 00:29:26,542
Speaker 3: and sometimes something comes out in the news and we

607
00:29:26,582 --> 00:29:29,822
Speaker 3: don't even have the details yet, and there is a

608
00:29:29,982 --> 00:29:32,142
Speaker 3: sense this is the wrong word, but there is a

609
00:29:32,182 --> 00:29:36,421
Speaker 3: sense of almost not from them necessarily, but maybe I

610
00:29:36,502 --> 00:29:39,622
Speaker 3: see it from tabloid media of Glee that like, and

611
00:29:39,782 --> 00:29:43,181
Speaker 3: here's another way to tell exactly the same story. And

612
00:29:43,222 --> 00:29:47,302
Speaker 3: I see a flesh and blood human being who was

613
00:29:47,342 --> 00:29:51,661
Speaker 3: a mum and a sister and had these critical relationships

614
00:29:51,702 --> 00:29:54,342
Speaker 3: and had such a contribution to the community, and I

615
00:29:54,422 --> 00:29:59,782
Speaker 3: see her reduced to a political issue or whatever.

616
00:29:59,502 --> 00:30:02,182
Speaker 2: And literally a number and a number exactly right.

617
00:30:02,302 --> 00:30:05,502
Speaker 3: It's just another number, another number, another number, And something

618
00:30:05,502 --> 00:30:09,741
Speaker 3: about that is starting to feel dehumanizing to me. And

619
00:30:10,222 --> 00:30:13,022
Speaker 3: when I go through these stories on an individual basis,

620
00:30:13,342 --> 00:30:16,302
Speaker 3: they are not all the same story. There are similarities,

621
00:30:16,342 --> 00:30:20,902
Speaker 3: and there are you know, absolutely learnings. And I've heard

622
00:30:20,942 --> 00:30:22,902
Speaker 3: Dutton and I've heard our ben Easy talk about them

623
00:30:22,982 --> 00:30:27,221
Speaker 3: from bail to AVOs that are ignored mental health to

624
00:30:27,262 --> 00:30:31,422
Speaker 3: mental health, to alcohol to drug use. But Kim Tran,

625
00:30:31,942 --> 00:30:35,622
Speaker 3: that was a different story. That was a different story

626
00:30:35,661 --> 00:30:39,262
Speaker 3: to some of the others. There are also many where

627
00:30:39,942 --> 00:30:42,662
Speaker 3: legally we don't have the details yet, and I see

628
00:30:42,661 --> 00:30:44,582
Speaker 3: people fill those details in in a way I think

629
00:30:44,622 --> 00:30:47,701
Speaker 3: is really clumsy and unhelpful. And then we splash the

630
00:30:47,782 --> 00:30:49,782
Speaker 3: details of some of these stories, and I know I

631
00:30:49,822 --> 00:30:53,021
Speaker 3: did it in the introduction, like I worry. I worry

632
00:30:53,062 --> 00:30:56,222
Speaker 3: that putting all of these women in the same bucket

633
00:30:57,182 --> 00:31:01,302
Speaker 3: reduces them to one thing when we can't express enough

634
00:31:01,661 --> 00:31:05,062
Speaker 3: how complex this issue is. For example, the story of

635
00:31:05,661 --> 00:31:10,542
Speaker 3: Kim Tran is a totally different story to some of the.

636
00:31:10,502 --> 00:31:13,221
Speaker 2: Others, but it has something very important in common with

637
00:31:13,262 --> 00:31:15,661
Speaker 2: the others, which is that she lost her lives at

638
00:31:15,702 --> 00:31:17,622
Speaker 2: the hands of men because they thought she didn't matter.

639
00:31:18,382 --> 00:31:20,622
Speaker 2: And that's the thing that binds us together on this

640
00:31:20,702 --> 00:31:23,302
Speaker 2: is You're right that these stories are all very complicated,

641
00:31:23,342 --> 00:31:24,942
Speaker 2: and that's why I want to hear them. That's why

642
00:31:24,942 --> 00:31:26,902
Speaker 2: I want to hear them talked about, because they do

643
00:31:26,982 --> 00:31:29,582
Speaker 2: all have one very common thread, which is that the

644
00:31:29,582 --> 00:31:31,421
Speaker 2: lives of women don't seem to matter as much as

645
00:31:31,422 --> 00:31:33,741
Speaker 2: the lives of men do very very often. And I

646
00:31:33,902 --> 00:31:36,382
Speaker 2: totally get your point. I know they're doing a lot,

647
00:31:36,742 --> 00:31:38,701
Speaker 2: you know, I know that domestic violence funding, I know

648
00:31:38,742 --> 00:31:41,422
Speaker 2: there are so many experts who work in all those

649
00:31:41,462 --> 00:31:46,022
Speaker 2: areas that I've discussed before about prevention, about sentencing, about rehabilitation,

650
00:31:46,582 --> 00:31:50,462
Speaker 2: about victim support who have lived experience, and a lot

651
00:31:50,462 --> 00:31:53,142
Speaker 2: of education about what to do. And I believe our

652
00:31:53,182 --> 00:31:55,302
Speaker 2: leaders are listening to them, of course I do. But

653
00:31:55,382 --> 00:31:58,262
Speaker 2: there's also just something so important, as I said about

654
00:31:58,262 --> 00:32:00,342
Speaker 2: all those other issues that seem to matter so much,

655
00:32:00,702 --> 00:32:03,941
Speaker 2: about talking about it and talking about it and recognizing

656
00:32:03,982 --> 00:32:06,822
Speaker 2: it and recognizing it and talking about the complexity of this.

657
00:32:07,142 --> 00:32:09,262
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I think as well that a lot of

658
00:32:09,262 --> 00:32:12,542
Speaker 3: people go enough we want our politicians to talk about this,

659
00:32:12,582 --> 00:32:14,982
Speaker 3: and I like, what do we want them to say?

660
00:32:15,102 --> 00:32:19,422
Speaker 3: Because some of the solutions are really really complicated. For example,

661
00:32:19,542 --> 00:32:22,221
Speaker 3: there was a representative from the Australian Psychological Society on

662
00:32:22,302 --> 00:32:25,662
Speaker 3: ABC Radio Sydney just last month who said, we've really

663
00:32:25,661 --> 00:32:29,702
Speaker 3: got to talk about alcohol, So let's talk about alcohol. Yeah, exactly,

664
00:32:29,742 --> 00:32:32,342
Speaker 3: and that being a risk factor I think it was

665
00:32:32,342 --> 00:32:35,622
Speaker 3: involved in something like thirty four percent of intimate partner violence.

666
00:32:35,982 --> 00:32:38,742
Speaker 3: Do we want to have a serious national conversation about

667
00:32:38,902 --> 00:32:40,661
Speaker 3: what we do about that during election?

668
00:32:40,902 --> 00:32:42,582
Speaker 2: But one of the reasons for that, this is why

669
00:32:42,622 --> 00:32:45,022
Speaker 2: this is not complicated issue? Well it's not. But also

670
00:32:45,702 --> 00:32:48,542
Speaker 2: who profits from all the alcohol that's drunk in Australia.

671
00:32:48,622 --> 00:32:52,782
Speaker 2: It's an enormous business. Who's selling the beer and the

672
00:32:52,782 --> 00:32:54,862
Speaker 2: booze and the wine. And like, you're not wrong that

673
00:32:54,902 --> 00:32:57,782
Speaker 2: it's complicated. But I think that when people say, we

674
00:32:57,822 --> 00:32:59,181
Speaker 2: want to hear you talk about it, and I know

675
00:32:59,222 --> 00:33:01,822
Speaker 2: what you hear that you hear lip service bullshit? You

676
00:33:01,862 --> 00:33:04,661
Speaker 2: want action. But I also don't want it to only

677
00:33:04,702 --> 00:33:07,222
Speaker 2: be an issue you know when it suits you know

678
00:33:07,262 --> 00:33:09,022
Speaker 2: what I mean. It's an issue that most women are

679
00:33:09,062 --> 00:33:11,742
Speaker 2: living with every day in some way through a friend,

680
00:33:11,862 --> 00:33:15,302
Speaker 2: a family member, their own experience, and it should feel

681
00:33:15,342 --> 00:33:16,182
Speaker 2: that way to us.

682
00:33:16,542 --> 00:33:19,942
Speaker 1: And I think don't underestimate the power of lip service

683
00:33:19,982 --> 00:33:23,822
Speaker 1: and the symbolism of it. Like when someone loses a

684
00:33:23,822 --> 00:33:26,582
Speaker 1: loved one, we say, I'm so sorry for your loss.

685
00:33:27,062 --> 00:33:29,181
Speaker 1: Can it bring that person back? Can it fix it?

686
00:33:29,262 --> 00:33:33,142
Speaker 1: Can it do anything? But it's just a human acknowledgment

687
00:33:33,782 --> 00:33:37,542
Speaker 1: that says, I see you, I empathize with you, And

688
00:33:38,062 --> 00:33:41,782
Speaker 1: I feel that sometimes when you're having conversations with men,

689
00:33:42,462 --> 00:33:46,421
Speaker 1: good men, men who would never do this, they just

690
00:33:46,542 --> 00:33:49,142
Speaker 1: don't get it. They just don't see it as an

691
00:33:49,142 --> 00:33:52,022
Speaker 1: issue for them because they also feel helpless.

692
00:33:52,022 --> 00:33:52,502
Speaker 2: They don't know.

693
00:33:52,742 --> 00:33:53,782
Speaker 1: And I don't blame them.

694
00:33:53,622 --> 00:33:55,022
Speaker 2: For that, because what are they going to do?

695
00:33:55,262 --> 00:33:58,222
Speaker 1: Like it's so cultural and this is why it can

696
00:33:58,262 --> 00:33:59,022
Speaker 1: make you feel really good.

697
00:33:59,062 --> 00:34:01,862
Speaker 3: Lip service is one of the biggest criticisms politicians get

698
00:34:02,222 --> 00:34:04,062
Speaker 3: is that it's all lip servers and it's.

699
00:34:04,142 --> 00:34:05,782
Speaker 1: No but I mean, on its own, I agree with you.

700
00:34:05,782 --> 00:34:08,821
Speaker 1: On its own, it's not enough. But just because they

701
00:34:08,862 --> 00:34:12,102
Speaker 1: can't announce new policy every day, I agree with Holly.

702
00:34:12,142 --> 00:34:14,462
Speaker 1: They can still acknowledge every time a woman is killed.

703
00:34:15,302 --> 00:34:16,582
Speaker 1: They can get up and say, and.

704
00:34:16,542 --> 00:34:18,341
Speaker 2: They can also tell us what they're doing, because as

705
00:34:18,342 --> 00:34:20,261
Speaker 2: you've just said, they're doing a lot. And as I say,

706
00:34:20,261 --> 00:34:22,221
Speaker 2: I've heard them tell me twenty five times what they're

707
00:34:22,221 --> 00:34:23,942
Speaker 2: doing about cost of living. What if you tell me

708
00:34:23,982 --> 00:34:26,062
Speaker 2: twenty five times about what you're doing about this?

709
00:34:26,342 --> 00:34:28,902
Speaker 3: What if Sometimes, and this might be a really unpopular

710
00:34:28,942 --> 00:34:31,901
Speaker 3: thing to say, there is absolutely nothing they can do.

711
00:34:32,181 --> 00:34:34,142
Speaker 3: There are stories that come up where you look at

712
00:34:34,181 --> 00:34:35,742
Speaker 3: it and you go, this is a story about bail laws.

713
00:34:35,781 --> 00:34:38,022
Speaker 3: This is a really important story about bail laws. And

714
00:34:38,181 --> 00:34:40,062
Speaker 3: you do see politicians come out and say we're going

715
00:34:40,102 --> 00:34:42,702
Speaker 3: to make some changes. There are some stories you see

716
00:34:42,781 --> 00:34:47,301
Speaker 3: that are so revoltingly cruel and heinous and tragic and

717
00:34:47,342 --> 00:34:49,982
Speaker 3: are the worst of humanity, and you think, I actually

718
00:34:50,062 --> 00:34:51,782
Speaker 3: don't know what we expect.

719
00:34:52,862 --> 00:34:55,902
Speaker 2: Of course, not nobody is suggesting. I am certainly not

720
00:34:55,982 --> 00:35:01,582
Speaker 2: suggesting that a politician stop every murder that happens in Australia.

721
00:35:01,622 --> 00:35:04,262
Speaker 2: But the thing that we keep missing here, in my opinion,

722
00:35:04,701 --> 00:35:07,462
Speaker 2: is we focus on these worst of the worst stories

723
00:35:07,542 --> 00:35:09,982
Speaker 2: rather than on that phone that's ringing every three minutes.

724
00:35:10,462 --> 00:35:13,142
Speaker 2: Of course, there are systemic things that can and are

725
00:35:13,181 --> 00:35:15,902
Speaker 2: being done to stop that, but that's where this starts.

726
00:35:15,982 --> 00:35:19,381
Speaker 2: It is so rare that a domestic violence death came

727
00:35:19,382 --> 00:35:22,261
Speaker 2: from out of the blue. It is so rare. It

728
00:35:22,342 --> 00:35:26,542
Speaker 2: is usually the end of a story that started way back,

729
00:35:26,661 --> 00:35:29,662
Speaker 2: and intervention could have happened at a million points. Of course,

730
00:35:29,741 --> 00:35:33,102
Speaker 2: there is no guilt on the hands of these politicians

731
00:35:33,102 --> 00:35:35,582
Speaker 2: for these women's deaths, of course there isn't. But I

732
00:35:35,822 --> 00:35:39,502
Speaker 2: just think that women, as Mia said, I certainly feel

733
00:35:39,502 --> 00:35:42,862
Speaker 2: it like just frustrated that they don't recognize the scale

734
00:35:42,902 --> 00:35:45,301
Speaker 2: because the deaths are one thing. But the women who

735
00:35:45,342 --> 00:35:47,542
Speaker 2: are listening to this and who we know, who are

736
00:35:47,542 --> 00:35:50,902
Speaker 2: living in fear, who can't leave a relationship for financial

737
00:35:50,942 --> 00:35:53,502
Speaker 2: reasons or because of their children, who have been victims

738
00:35:53,542 --> 00:35:56,821
Speaker 2: in the past. Like all of those, women deserve the

739
00:35:56,902 --> 00:35:59,421
Speaker 2: respect and acknowledgment that they're living with something that men

740
00:35:59,462 --> 00:36:01,741
Speaker 2: do not live with. They have issues with violence too

741
00:36:01,781 --> 00:36:04,622
Speaker 2: that they live with, no question, but it's not the same.

742
00:36:04,982 --> 00:36:07,102
Speaker 2: They are not in the numbers that women are living

743
00:36:07,181 --> 00:36:09,781
Speaker 2: in homes with people who seek to harm them and

744
00:36:09,822 --> 00:36:10,502
Speaker 2: control them.

745
00:36:10,902 --> 00:36:14,781
Speaker 1: If you are feeling as we are, angry, despairing all

746
00:36:14,822 --> 00:36:16,861
Speaker 1: of the things, there is something that you can do.

747
00:36:17,261 --> 00:36:19,901
Speaker 1: Mom Mia is the proud supporter of Rise Up, which

748
00:36:19,942 --> 00:36:23,822
Speaker 1: is a domestic violence charity that helps women and children

749
00:36:23,902 --> 00:36:27,741
Speaker 1: relocate and set up new lives after escaping domestic violent situations.

750
00:36:28,022 --> 00:36:30,062
Speaker 1: We will put a link in the show notes if

751
00:36:30,102 --> 00:36:32,942
Speaker 1: you can give even a few dollars to support their work.

752
00:36:33,022 --> 00:36:35,501
Speaker 3: And if this segment has brought up anything for you

753
00:36:35,781 --> 00:36:38,661
Speaker 3: or you know someone in need, there are resources in

754
00:36:38,701 --> 00:36:39,382
Speaker 3: the show notes.

755
00:36:42,741 --> 00:36:46,502
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

756
00:36:46,542 --> 00:36:50,622
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

757
00:36:50,622 --> 00:36:52,382
Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears

758
00:36:52,661 --> 00:36:55,382
Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to

759
00:36:55,582 --> 00:36:57,222
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.

760
00:37:04,542 --> 00:37:07,542
Speaker 3: A set of Australian identical twins are going viral after

761
00:37:07,582 --> 00:37:09,861
Speaker 3: an interview is it you? It is not there and

762
00:37:09,902 --> 00:37:12,542
Speaker 3: I so there's a little bit of tension. They were

763
00:37:12,542 --> 00:37:15,421
Speaker 3: both speaking about their mum being carjacked and they were

764
00:37:15,462 --> 00:37:20,022
Speaker 3: captured speaking in near perfect unison Bridget and Paula Powers.

765
00:37:20,062 --> 00:37:23,582
Speaker 3: They were speaking to seven News Queensland on Tuesday. Here's

766
00:37:23,622 --> 00:37:24,661
Speaker 3: some of what they had to say.

767
00:37:25,701 --> 00:37:28,062
Speaker 5: And one guy he was up there with our mom

768
00:37:28,862 --> 00:37:32,382
Speaker 5: and he he went up there and he was coming

769
00:37:32,462 --> 00:37:36,782
Speaker 5: back down the wards and he goes, run, he's got

770
00:37:36,822 --> 00:37:41,181
Speaker 5: a gun. And our hearts started a pond and I said,

771
00:37:41,221 --> 00:37:46,142
Speaker 5: well mom, with's mom and paul Mama's stuck up there

772
00:37:46,382 --> 00:37:48,382
Speaker 5: by apparently our brave mom.

773
00:37:48,622 --> 00:37:50,301
Speaker 1: She goes, are you all right?

774
00:37:50,462 --> 00:37:52,181
Speaker 2: Because he had all blood in.

775
00:37:52,221 --> 00:37:56,021
Speaker 1: His face, and he goes, I'll shoot you.

776
00:37:56,261 --> 00:37:59,861
Speaker 5: She goes, hey, I'm here to hell a mum distrategy.

777
00:37:59,982 --> 00:38:01,221
Speaker 1: Well that sounds upsetting.

778
00:38:01,261 --> 00:38:05,542
Speaker 3: Firstly, what they witnessed so traumatic has been totally lost

779
00:38:05,582 --> 00:38:06,781
Speaker 3: in the coverage because they.

780
00:38:06,661 --> 00:38:08,301
Speaker 2: Were talking about something all around the world.

781
00:38:08,422 --> 00:38:12,582
Speaker 3: This clip round the world, and what fascinated people the

782
00:38:12,622 --> 00:38:14,942
Speaker 3: most was how they seem to know exactly what the

783
00:38:14,942 --> 00:38:16,701
Speaker 3: other was going to say as the words fell out

784
00:38:16,741 --> 00:38:19,342
Speaker 3: of their mouth. And of course what began is people

785
00:38:19,382 --> 00:38:21,502
Speaker 3: going well, I would love to see a brain wave

786
00:38:21,582 --> 00:38:24,381
Speaker 3: study of what's going on, like how telepathic they are.

787
00:38:24,902 --> 00:38:28,702
Speaker 3: Of course, it became unnecessarily cruel with lots of name calling,

788
00:38:28,781 --> 00:38:30,022
Speaker 3: and my question is are.

789
00:38:29,902 --> 00:38:32,022
Speaker 1: We why what names did they get called?

790
00:38:32,142 --> 00:38:35,381
Speaker 3: Oh, just kind of making fun of them and suggesting

791
00:38:35,502 --> 00:38:37,861
Speaker 3: that they didn't have any friends and that they were

792
00:38:37,902 --> 00:38:38,901
Speaker 3: some kind of side show.

793
00:38:39,221 --> 00:38:42,821
Speaker 2: Also you could tell. But just listening to that, you

794
00:38:42,862 --> 00:38:44,781
Speaker 2: can just see it going around the world with the

795
00:38:45,102 --> 00:38:48,462
Speaker 2: Australian accents. Yes and yeah they talk like there's just

796
00:38:48,542 --> 00:38:51,302
Speaker 2: that there'll be figures of mockery like within second.

797
00:38:51,542 --> 00:38:53,102
Speaker 3: And that's the thing is that now they're on lots

798
00:38:53,102 --> 00:38:55,661
Speaker 3: of different TV shows and they're being spoken to by

799
00:38:55,781 --> 00:38:58,102
Speaker 3: lots of well meaning journalists. But do you think we're

800
00:38:58,102 --> 00:38:59,821
Speaker 3: treating them as some kind of side show? And what

801
00:38:59,902 --> 00:39:03,021
Speaker 3: is it about identical twins that's so fun for people

802
00:39:03,022 --> 00:39:06,062
Speaker 3: when they behave like well because your magic, yes.

803
00:39:06,022 --> 00:39:10,022
Speaker 2: And you're unusual. So this is really patronizing. But I

804
00:39:10,062 --> 00:39:12,342
Speaker 2: can just imagine I haven't seen them doing the breakfast

805
00:39:12,382 --> 00:39:14,622
Speaker 2: TV rounds or whatever today, but I can just imagine

806
00:39:14,661 --> 00:39:17,181
Speaker 2: that like being do it again, do it again? Talk

807
00:39:17,181 --> 00:39:19,062
Speaker 2: about something else, let's see if it can happen. And

808
00:39:19,102 --> 00:39:21,942
Speaker 2: they are literally being treated like a freak show in

809
00:39:22,142 --> 00:39:26,861
Speaker 2: oldie worldie circus times. I understand the fascination because it's

810
00:39:26,942 --> 00:39:30,542
Speaker 2: really strange, right, like, if this isn't your world, it's

811
00:39:30,582 --> 00:39:34,261
Speaker 2: really strange. How do they know? But they are definitely

812
00:39:34,302 --> 00:39:36,701
Speaker 2: being treated like a freak Do you think I also?

813
00:39:36,741 --> 00:39:38,622
Speaker 2: Can you and Claire do this? And would you do

814
00:39:38,661 --> 00:39:39,262
Speaker 2: it for us?

815
00:39:39,582 --> 00:39:43,301
Speaker 3: I reckon that main Claire, or like our brothers, if

816
00:39:43,302 --> 00:39:45,381
Speaker 3: we were sitting there, we could absolutely finish each other

817
00:39:45,462 --> 00:39:47,902
Speaker 3: sentences like that. There is just something about and I

818
00:39:47,982 --> 00:39:49,261
Speaker 3: don't think it's magic.

819
00:39:49,741 --> 00:39:55,102
Speaker 1: I think you can do it with anyone.

820
00:39:54,781 --> 00:39:57,582
Speaker 2: That you know, Well, yeah you do. It's proximity.

821
00:39:57,661 --> 00:40:00,462
Speaker 3: They'd witness the same thing, their brains would be working

822
00:40:00,502 --> 00:40:01,821
Speaker 3: in somewhat the same way, and they.

823
00:40:01,701 --> 00:40:04,622
Speaker 1: Were also telling a story that were recounting a set

824
00:40:04,661 --> 00:40:07,221
Speaker 1: of fact that they both witnessed in the same way.

825
00:40:07,302 --> 00:40:10,622
Speaker 3: Then when they were later interview, even when they're asked

826
00:40:10,622 --> 00:40:13,181
Speaker 3: about anything, they can But what I think twins do

827
00:40:13,822 --> 00:40:18,542
Speaker 3: is complicate our understanding of selfhood, of identity and independence.

828
00:40:18,542 --> 00:40:21,102
Speaker 3: I think we all think we're special and that we

829
00:40:21,142 --> 00:40:24,902
Speaker 3: are these like closed off we are a boundaried person,

830
00:40:25,342 --> 00:40:29,261
Speaker 3: and even from like mythology, people have never known what

831
00:40:29,342 --> 00:40:31,982
Speaker 3: to do with twins because they're just like, are you

832
00:40:32,221 --> 00:40:36,062
Speaker 3: two halves of a whole? Or are you opposites or

833
00:40:36,102 --> 00:40:36,861
Speaker 3: are you the same?

834
00:40:37,022 --> 00:40:38,862
Speaker 1: So you think it's like it's fascinating because it's a

835
00:40:38,902 --> 00:40:39,742
Speaker 1: little bit threatening.

836
00:40:40,022 --> 00:40:42,341
Speaker 3: Yes, it's what it's saying is there could be two

837
00:40:42,382 --> 00:40:45,181
Speaker 3: of you for horror movies or there's so many books

838
00:40:45,221 --> 00:40:47,542
Speaker 3: written about it. The idea that it's like cloning or

839
00:40:47,542 --> 00:40:50,062
Speaker 3: like a doppel ganger. That's terrifying for people because it's

840
00:40:50,102 --> 00:40:52,781
Speaker 3: like you're actually not that special, Like if someone else

841
00:40:52,781 --> 00:40:55,221
Speaker 3: had grown up alongside you, there could be another U,

842
00:40:55,302 --> 00:40:57,102
Speaker 3: or another U or another U. I think that's what

843
00:40:57,142 --> 00:40:57,661
Speaker 3: throws us.

844
00:40:57,741 --> 00:41:00,302
Speaker 1: Do people ask you and Claire to like do tricks?

845
00:41:00,382 --> 00:41:01,341
Speaker 1: Or did they when you were younger?

846
00:41:01,382 --> 00:41:01,861
Speaker 2: Not as much.

847
00:41:01,902 --> 00:41:03,981
Speaker 3: A lot of you just get to kindergarten and someone

848
00:41:04,022 --> 00:41:05,781
Speaker 3: punches you in the arm and says, can she feel it?

849
00:41:05,982 --> 00:41:07,181
Speaker 3: It's like no, but I could.

850
00:41:07,502 --> 00:41:09,741
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot for that, you know what. I to

851
00:41:09,822 --> 00:41:14,302
Speaker 2: zoom in on with breathless excitement on Sunday. The image

852
00:41:14,302 --> 00:41:17,421
Speaker 2: of Liz Hurley, who is obviously an iconic generation next

853
00:41:17,502 --> 00:41:22,622
Speaker 2: celebrity in pigtails and checked flannel kissing Billy ray Ciris

854
00:41:22,902 --> 00:41:25,422
Speaker 2: of Achy Breaky Heart and being the dad of Miley

855
00:41:25,502 --> 00:41:28,941
Speaker 2: Fame up against a fence while he was wearing bunny eares.

856
00:41:29,181 --> 00:41:32,502
Speaker 1: Okay, Emelia Lester sent me this picture and I just

857
00:41:32,542 --> 00:41:35,021
Speaker 1: glanced at it quickly, and I thought it was Liz

858
00:41:35,102 --> 00:41:37,062
Speaker 1: Hurley's son Damien.

859
00:41:36,741 --> 00:41:38,821
Speaker 3: Kissing her because he has a long issue, because he.

860
00:41:38,822 --> 00:41:41,942
Speaker 1: Has the same long brunette hair. They've quite affectionate and

861
00:41:41,982 --> 00:41:44,741
Speaker 1: they look very similar. We've talked before he directed her

862
00:41:44,781 --> 00:41:46,261
Speaker 1: in a very sexy movie.

863
00:41:45,982 --> 00:41:48,462
Speaker 2: That he really Cyrus does not look like Damien.

864
00:41:48,862 --> 00:41:51,102
Speaker 1: What was a kind of a profile and I just

865
00:41:51,181 --> 00:41:53,422
Speaker 1: glanced at it quickly on my phone. I didn't quite

866
00:41:53,502 --> 00:41:55,862
Speaker 1: understand the magnitude of what she was sending.

867
00:41:55,862 --> 00:41:57,221
Speaker 3: Well, was that on your bingo cart, Billie?

868
00:41:57,382 --> 00:41:59,302
Speaker 2: No, it wasn't. And the thing is that was glorious

869
00:41:59,342 --> 00:42:01,822
Speaker 2: about this is it was not a grobby paparazzi shot.

870
00:42:01,862 --> 00:42:06,181
Speaker 2: This was their hard launch. He is her new boyfriend,

871
00:42:06,542 --> 00:42:09,462
Speaker 2: and like her other high profile boyfriends, he's quite a

872
00:42:09,622 --> 00:42:13,062
Speaker 2: bold choice, it would seem. Apparently they met in twenty

873
00:42:13,102 --> 00:42:16,062
Speaker 2: twenty two on the set of that Oscar nominated Netflix

874
00:42:16,102 --> 00:42:19,542
Speaker 2: special Christmas in Paradise, And she hasn't had a public

875
00:42:19,582 --> 00:42:23,582
Speaker 2: relationship actually since her engagement to Shane Warn that ended

876
00:42:23,622 --> 00:42:25,781
Speaker 2: in twenty thirteen, which more than ten years ago, and

877
00:42:25,822 --> 00:42:30,182
Speaker 2: she before that had had quite high profile partners Grant

878
00:42:30,221 --> 00:42:32,542
Speaker 2: back in the day, and of course the Vasacei dress

879
00:42:32,622 --> 00:42:35,782
Speaker 2: that launched both of their careers. Really, she had a child,

880
00:42:35,902 --> 00:42:39,381
Speaker 2: Damien's dad, with Steve Bing, who was this big money guy,

881
00:42:39,462 --> 00:42:42,102
Speaker 2: and then she married Aaron Mayer, and then she was

882
00:42:42,181 --> 00:42:46,261
Speaker 2: with Shane and they were iconic and exceptionally public, and

883
00:42:46,302 --> 00:42:49,582
Speaker 2: they broke up in twenty thirteen, but they stayed close,

884
00:42:49,701 --> 00:42:52,542
Speaker 2: and they stayed close right up to his death. But

885
00:42:52,781 --> 00:42:55,781
Speaker 2: now this is the first time she has hard launched

886
00:42:55,942 --> 00:43:00,102
Speaker 2: since then. Do we think she has a type or not?

887
00:43:00,261 --> 00:43:00,901
Speaker 1: She has a type?

888
00:43:00,902 --> 00:43:03,422
Speaker 2: Absolutely, what's the type? They all seem very different.

889
00:43:03,502 --> 00:43:07,461
Speaker 3: One glance at Liz Hurley's dating history and I went,

890
00:43:07,661 --> 00:43:09,662
Speaker 3: she dates a hot mess, she has a heart mess.

891
00:43:10,342 --> 00:43:13,062
Speaker 3: She goes a bad boy who I can save. We've

892
00:43:13,062 --> 00:43:16,142
Speaker 3: all been there. Liz takes one to see one. But

893
00:43:16,422 --> 00:43:20,382
Speaker 3: I just went, there is something about women who sometimes

894
00:43:20,542 --> 00:43:23,661
Speaker 3: like the rebellion of like a Hugh Grant, a Shane, Well,

895
00:43:23,781 --> 00:43:26,422
Speaker 3: I see, I totally see like a naughty boy, like

896
00:43:26,422 --> 00:43:29,781
Speaker 3: a naughty boy, a bad boy. And interestingly, men never

897
00:43:29,822 --> 00:43:32,421
Speaker 3: want a hot mess woman. They can't be bothered fixing them,

898
00:43:32,462 --> 00:43:34,022
Speaker 3: whereas a woman is like maybe I.

899
00:43:34,181 --> 00:43:35,022
Speaker 1: Can see the potential.

900
00:43:35,102 --> 00:43:39,022
Speaker 2: I can see. She was with Hugh Grant when he

901
00:43:39,142 --> 00:43:41,782
Speaker 2: was arrested with the sex worker in LA that became

902
00:43:41,822 --> 00:43:45,982
Speaker 2: one of the biggest scandals of the nineties. And they

903
00:43:46,022 --> 00:43:48,181
Speaker 2: stay out together right like because those who have been

904
00:43:48,221 --> 00:43:51,502
Speaker 2: together forever, they are also still close. They are still

905
00:43:51,862 --> 00:43:54,341
Speaker 2: he's I think, godfather to her son. They're like, she's

906
00:43:54,342 --> 00:43:56,742
Speaker 2: obviously a very understanding woman.

907
00:43:57,062 --> 00:43:58,661
Speaker 3: She is, And I think that these men would be

908
00:43:58,661 --> 00:44:02,181
Speaker 3: great fun. I think they'd be terrible boyfriends, like Shane Warner.

909
00:44:02,422 --> 00:44:04,102
Speaker 3: Icon Icon Billy.

910
00:44:03,862 --> 00:44:07,221
Speaker 1: Ray is just coming off a very fast divorce. Yes,

911
00:44:07,261 --> 00:44:09,901
Speaker 1: he's reading about the era and I thought that he'd

912
00:44:09,902 --> 00:44:12,622
Speaker 1: married a woman called fire Hose. But her name is

913
00:44:12,701 --> 00:44:13,382
Speaker 1: fire Arise.

914
00:44:15,542 --> 00:44:17,261
Speaker 2: She's Australia, is she?

915
00:44:16,862 --> 00:44:20,701
Speaker 1: Yes, she seems very young and they were married very

916
00:44:20,741 --> 00:44:24,662
Speaker 1: briefly one month. The divorce is fairly acrimonious.

917
00:44:23,982 --> 00:44:25,582
Speaker 2: Apparently something about fraud.

918
00:44:26,181 --> 00:44:30,582
Speaker 1: Okay, he's pinged into the arms of Liz Hurley, who

919
00:44:30,701 --> 00:44:35,022
Speaker 1: I also read that his ex wife Tish suspected him

920
00:44:35,062 --> 00:44:36,942
Speaker 1: of having an affair with when they were making the

921
00:44:36,982 --> 00:44:38,741
Speaker 1: movie together. I missed that movie too.

922
00:44:39,062 --> 00:44:41,341
Speaker 2: Do you think that? And I know that it's reductive

923
00:44:41,462 --> 00:44:44,701
Speaker 2: to look at celebrities just through who they're dating, but hey, yeah,

924
00:44:44,781 --> 00:44:48,261
Speaker 2: that's what we're here for today. Do you think that

925
00:44:48,422 --> 00:44:52,142
Speaker 2: everybody does have a type? Taylor swifts very famous list

926
00:44:52,181 --> 00:44:55,302
Speaker 2: of boyfriends, most of whom are famous, from Harry Styles

927
00:44:55,302 --> 00:44:59,262
Speaker 2: to Tom Hillston to Joel and to Maddy Healy, Travis Kelsey.

928
00:44:59,342 --> 00:45:01,062
Speaker 2: What's the type there? What's the common denomenala?

929
00:45:01,221 --> 00:45:03,861
Speaker 3: She has heras, she has heras because I think that

930
00:45:03,902 --> 00:45:05,341
Speaker 3: she might have had a type when she was in

931
00:45:05,382 --> 00:45:08,582
Speaker 3: the Harry Styles moment, Like I probably even think that

932
00:45:09,181 --> 00:45:11,261
Speaker 3: there are you Harry Styles esque one.

933
00:45:11,382 --> 00:45:13,062
Speaker 1: And she likes a bit of a tortured artist. She

934
00:45:13,181 --> 00:45:18,742
Speaker 1: likes English guys, English guy. She's done an English Joe.

935
00:45:18,822 --> 00:45:24,261
Speaker 3: One eight pivot with Travis. Yes, so far, because I

936
00:45:24,261 --> 00:45:26,502
Speaker 3: think dating outside your type is the hack, is the

937
00:45:26,542 --> 00:45:27,102
Speaker 3: best life hack.

938
00:45:27,221 --> 00:45:30,661
Speaker 1: Liz hasn't done country in Western before, so maybe here

939
00:45:30,701 --> 00:45:33,861
Speaker 1: we are. And on that note, I think we're done.

940
00:45:34,781 --> 00:45:35,381
Speaker 1: He is done here.

941
00:45:35,422 --> 00:45:37,742
Speaker 2: That is all we have time for today. Out louders,

942
00:45:37,741 --> 00:45:41,381
Speaker 2: I hope you've enjoyed this rollercoaster of a show. We

943
00:45:41,422 --> 00:45:43,661
Speaker 2: want to thank you for being here. And if I haven't

944
00:45:43,661 --> 00:45:45,181
Speaker 2: seen putting it together, we're going to be back in

945
00:45:45,181 --> 00:45:46,102
Speaker 2: your ears tomorrow.

946
00:45:46,582 --> 00:45:49,381
Speaker 3: If you're looking for something else to listen to, well,

947
00:45:49,741 --> 00:45:52,741
Speaker 3: Maya and I got back from being away and we

948
00:45:52,781 --> 00:45:55,181
Speaker 3: went just we need to sit in a room and

949
00:45:55,221 --> 00:45:59,622
Speaker 3: talk about Blue Origin for three hours because we have thoughts,

950
00:45:59,862 --> 00:46:02,821
Speaker 3: we have feelings, astronauts, we have concerns. We had to

951
00:46:02,822 --> 00:46:05,542
Speaker 3: talk about the astronauts. There was so much more to say.

952
00:46:06,062 --> 00:46:08,781
Speaker 3: We unpacked some of the criticism and whether or not

953
00:46:09,181 --> 00:46:12,901
Speaker 3: we would call it feminism spoiler we wouldn't. A link,

954
00:46:12,942 --> 00:46:16,622
Speaker 3: as always will be in the show notes. Bye.

955
00:46:17,261 --> 00:46:20,542
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Muma Mia subscribers listening. If you

956
00:46:20,701 --> 00:46:23,062
Speaker 1: love the show and want to support us as well,

957
00:46:23,221 --> 00:46:25,622
Speaker 1: subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way

958
00:46:25,661 --> 00:46:27,701
Speaker 1: to do so. There is a link in the episode

959
00:46:27,741 --> 00:46:28,142
Speaker 1: description