Fenella Kernebone: A quick heads-up: in this series we talk about drug use, mental
Fenella Kernebone: health issues, and there's a bit of swearing.
Alec George: Welcome to the Brett Whiteley Studio. Have you been here
Alec George: before at all?
Fenella Kernebone: I'm Fenella Kernebone and this is 'Art, life and the other thing'. I'd like to acknowledge
Fenella Kernebone: the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast
Fenella Kernebone: was made, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. In this
Fenella Kernebone: series I sit down with some of Australia's most exciting
Fenella Kernebone: contemporary artists and curators at the Brett Whiteley Studio to
Fenella Kernebone: talk about his work and how it's impacted their own careers.
Fenella Kernebone: In each episode so far, we've focused on one of Brett's artworks,
Fenella Kernebone: and by looking at that work, we've unpacked bigger issues
Fenella Kernebone: about the wider Australian arts landscape. Well, in this final episode,
Fenella Kernebone: we're talking about one of Brett's greatest works and one
Fenella Kernebone: of his biggest, and I mean in scale, but also
Fenella Kernebone: in terms of ambition, intention and legacy. It's a piece
Fenella Kernebone: that he had several attempts at over the years, and
Fenella Kernebone: it took him a long time to finish what we
Fenella Kernebone: now see hanging in his Surry Hills studio. I'm talking
Fenella Kernebone: about 'Alchemy'.
Anne Ryan: This is a painting that's so large it actually goes
Anne Ryan: around the corner of the gallery space. It's a very
Anne Ryan: ambitious painting.
Fenella Kernebone: This is Anne Ryan, curator of Australian art at the
Fenella Kernebone: Art Gallery of New South Wales.
Anne Ryan: It's the painting of a young artist in his thirties
Anne Ryan: who is really of the belief that art can change
Anne Ryan: the world. He'd just come back to Australia after living
Anne Ryan: in New York for a period of time where he
Anne Ryan: had tried to paint a similarly ambitious painting that failed.
Anne Ryan: It was a personal and artistic point of crisis for him.
Anne Ryan: It ended up with him retreating from the great art
Anne Ryan: centre of New York, coming back to Australia and having
Anne Ryan: to recalibrate and reassess.
Fenella Kernebone: The painting is made up of 18 separate wood panels.
Fenella Kernebone: It's big - 16 metres long in total. And it's full
Fenella Kernebone: of Brett signature, confident flowing brushstrokes along with an assortment
Fenella Kernebone: of symbolic ephemera. To see the piece online, go to agnsw.art/bwspodcast.
Anne Ryan: Like much of his work, it's really very much about him,
Anne Ryan: and it's autobiographical. It's read from right to left, but
Anne Ryan: equally you could read it from left to right. So
Anne Ryan: it's a painting that you can journey along and find
Anne Ryan: all sorts of stories. It's not just a painting. Of course.
Anne Ryan: There's all sorts of elements in this picture, including stuffed birds,
Anne Ryan: magazine collage, electric lights. There's even a little window containing
Anne Ryan: some of his own hair. If you read the work
Anne Ryan: from right to left, we have a blue, watery world
Anne Ryan: and an image of conception, of a carnal image, of
Anne Ryan: the beginnings of human life, right through to the end,
Anne Ryan: where we end up with an ethereal, abstract, white, almost winged-like
Anne Ryan: form on a golden background, quite 'Oriental' looking in aesthetic.
Anne Ryan: But as you journey through the picture, you see all
Anne Ryan: these little clues as to the things that made him tick.
Anne Ryan: There are artistic references to artists that were meaningful to him,
Anne Ryan: such as Vincent van Gough, Francis Bacon, Hieronymus Bosch - a great
Anne Ryan: Flemish painter who's endlessly fascinating. You can find references to
Anne Ryan: the Australian landscape, the landscape beyond the Blue Mountains - the
Anne Ryan: area where he went to school around Bathurst - that sort
Anne Ryan: of yellowy dry, grassy, rural landscape of Australia. You can
Anne Ryan: see references to musicians, politicians. There are so many little
Anne Ryan: clues throughout this work to the key ideas and influences
Anne Ryan: and obsessions that drove his work, particularly around this time.
Fenella Kernebone: Painted over 11 months in 1972, this is very much
Fenella Kernebone: an autobiographical work. Wendy Whiteley points out that even the
Fenella Kernebone: baby in 'Alchemy' looks like Brett.
Wendy Whiteley: It's a kind of portrait of Brett's life, really. There's
Wendy Whiteley: the conception, there's, you know, the birth, which is obviously him being born
Wendy Whiteley: with a red, little, red-headed baby. Though if a baby had
Wendy Whiteley: been born with all that hair, it would have been remarkable,
Wendy Whiteley: and then we just go through it. It's a painting that needs
Wendy Whiteley: to be looked at from a distance first and then
Wendy Whiteley: to be moved right in close up to it so
Wendy Whiteley: that you start to see all that. The details, which
Wendy Whiteley: are often quite surreal in the sense of being very
Wendy Whiteley: influenced by Bosch's 'The Garden of Earthly Delights'. Little things from
Wendy Whiteley: the mind, references to people Brett either admired or hated,
Wendy Whiteley: another self portrait, but of the little door that gets covered up.
Wendy Whiteley: There's a plug, which implies the whole thing could go
Wendy Whiteley: down the plughole at one stage. However, it's an extraordinary picture
Wendy Whiteley: and I think the more you look at it, the
Wendy Whiteley: more you get involved in the actual what's going on
Wendy Whiteley: in it. When you get up close, the more you're
Wendy Whiteley: able to like it. You know, it's really it's a trip.
Wendy Whiteley: It's an organised excursion. He had a theory that the
Wendy Whiteley: best way to have a life story told would be
Wendy Whiteley: for him as an artist to have a three-mile-long gallery .
Wendy Whiteley: So he just started at the beginning of a life
Wendy Whiteley: and went to the other end. This is a kind
Wendy Whiteley: of smaller version of that idea, and it's interesting to
Wendy Whiteley: watch people actually walking along the front of it and
Wendy Whiteley: what catches their attention and what draws them into it,
Wendy Whiteley: like a magnet to peer very closely at what goes
Wendy Whiteley: on with it. So you can see people actually living
Wendy Whiteley: the experience as well, which is interesting because everything it
Wendy Whiteley: refers to is still going on today and went on
Wendy Whiteley: thousands of years ago, and will go on forever. It's
Wendy Whiteley: love hate, the beauty of the landscape, the fears of
Wendy Whiteley: everything going on in one's personal life and relates to everybody.
Wendy Whiteley: I think it's both very intensely personal, but it also
Wendy Whiteley: relates to most people looking at it. It's a language
Wendy Whiteley: that's understandable in the end.
Fenella Kernebone: Barry Pearce, the former curator of Australian art at the
Fenella Kernebone: Art Gallery of New South Wales, once wrote that Brett
Fenella Kernebone: Whiteley was envious of the power of pop musicians, and
Fenella Kernebone: he dreamt of 'Alchemy' reaching a mass audience. Currently, the
Fenella Kernebone: piece is on display in the corner across two walls
Fenella Kernebone: at the Brett Whiteley Studio in Surry Hills; it needs a
Fenella Kernebone: big space to exhibit it, but Barry Pearce says 'Alchemy'
Fenella Kernebone: should in fact be displayed on a curve.
Barry Pearce: I'm burning for that painting to be shown in a
Barry Pearce: proper way. Because, you see, he was on about endlessness-ism
Barry Pearce: and what is the place of infinity in our way
Barry Pearce: of thinking about life and art. And he painted 'Alchemy'
Barry Pearce: on an arc, on a curve. He was on about
Barry Pearce: [Albert] Einstein's theory of relativity that if you go out into space,
Barry Pearce: you don't follow a straight line, you actually go on
Barry Pearce: a curve. And what happens if you stay on the
Barry Pearce: path of a curve for a long, infinite, but a
Barry Pearce: long time you come back to where you started. And
Barry Pearce: what he wanted to do with 'Alchemy' was have a narrative
Barry Pearce: going from birth to death and enlightenment. On the left
Barry Pearce: you see the sexual thing, the birth pains, and on
Barry Pearce: the other end it's based on [Yukio] Mishima, a Japanese painting about enlightenment.
Barry Pearce: And when we're through and done, we see gold, the
Barry Pearce: gold of enlightenment all around us. It's like a view
Barry Pearce: of heaven, I suppose. But if they hung it like
Barry Pearce: it was meant to be on a curve, then if
Barry Pearce: you follow that line at either end - either end in
Barry Pearce: your imagination - will meet again. So and that's infinity and
Barry Pearce: it's endless and that's what that painting is all about.
Fenella Kernebone: What are you seeing in 'Alchemy', what is he trying to convey?
Barry Pearce: Well, it's like the [Charles] Baudelaire idea that you know to
Barry Pearce: get to heaven, you have to go through hell. Baudelaire said,
Barry Pearce: you know, flowers grow from shit like, and so it's
Barry Pearce: about all the pain and the violence in the world,
Barry Pearce: and you go through it and you go through it. And finally,
Barry Pearce: if you can get through it, if you can get
Barry Pearce: your way through it, you come out into enlightenment and
Barry Pearce: a peaceful view. It's a very, I suppose, a traditional ...
Barry Pearce: It's like a kind of religious picture, in some ways. But a kind of a
Barry Pearce: secular religious picture, if you can, if that's possible. It's a journey, and
Barry Pearce: the journey of the painting as a painting is that
Barry Pearce: the beauty of it is you can go back and forth.
Barry Pearce: Either way, you don't have to start with birth and
Barry Pearce: and finish up with the end, the end of days.
Barry Pearce: I suppose it is through all the nightmare and the
Barry Pearce: pleasures and everything in between. You can actually track back,
Barry Pearce: and it tells us that Brett thinks history has much to
Barry Pearce: tell us.
Fenella Kernebone: Considering where Brett fits within the culture or the pantheon
Fenella Kernebone: of Australian art, where do you think he sits within
Fenella Kernebone: our cultural landscape?
Barry Pearce: He delivers us very brave ideas about what it means
Barry Pearce: to be alive, and the, you know, the pleasure and pain
Barry Pearce: of life. And I think there are artists who can
Barry Pearce: give us the pleasure in small things, and if you're lucky,
Barry Pearce: you can bring them both together. Brett had this romantic
Barry Pearce: kind of idea about painting that if you, if you
Barry Pearce: are bold and you have a serious purpose, you can
Barry Pearce: achieve something that's good for the world, good for people.
Barry Pearce: In that sense, what the challenges he faced and he
Barry Pearce: had the guts to do it even against a lot
Barry Pearce: of hatred and envy for me puts him up very
Barry Pearce: high in the pantheon. He persisted.
Fenella Kernebone: He did persist. But as we've spoken about already in
Fenella Kernebone: this series, it came at a cost. To understand more
Fenella Kernebone: about what was going on in the background for Brett
Fenella Kernebone: at the time of making 'Alchemy', here's Anne Ryan again.
Anne Ryan: He is an artist trying to change the world, and he thought
Anne Ryan: he could do that throughout. And a lot of artists -
Anne Ryan: especially young artists - think that that's possible. They think that
Anne Ryan: art has the potential to change the world. Most of
Anne Ryan: the time it doesn't, but you can't fault the ambition
Anne Ryan: of this work, and to sustain something over such a
Anne Ryan: scale is enormously difficult, So the thing that comes out
Anne Ryan: of this is not just the ambition but also the
Anne Ryan: raw talent of this artist and the kind of hard
Anne Ryan: work and thought that went into an object like this
Anne Ryan: is fascinating.
Fenella Kernebone: Why was he so impacted do you think at the time to
Fenella Kernebone: want to create a work such as this? What was
Fenella Kernebone: really going on for him at the time?
Anne Ryan: Brett Whiteley made this work having had his wings clipped
Anne Ryan: a bit. He got success internationally, very young. He was
Anne Ryan: extremely talented, but he was also extremely fortunate in being
Anne Ryan: at the right time and meeting the right people and
Anne Ryan: having the right personality to get his work in front
Anne Ryan: of an audience that for Australians at that time really
Anne Ryan: mattered and that was in England. And his work got picked up
Anne Ryan: by institutions really early. It was collected by the Tate,
Anne Ryan: which is the big, important contemporary collecting institution in London
Anne Ryan: at the time, in his early twenties, almost unheard of.
Anne Ryan: So he had a start, unlike most other artists as
Anne Ryan: a young man, and I imagine it would have really
Anne Ryan: boosted his confidence at a time when he was still
Anne Ryan: trying to work stuff out. So he had this moment
Anne Ryan: of great success and great creativity a great flourishing of his
Anne Ryan: voice, a kind of development of his voice. And he goes
Anne Ryan: to New York thinking, 'Okay, I've made it in London.
Anne Ryan: Now I've got to make it in the centre.' And
Anne Ryan: that was New York and he failed. And he tried
Anne Ryan: to make this great picture while he was there that would
Anne Ryan: solve the problems of America. It would make America and
Anne Ryan: therefore the world kind of figure out what was going
Anne Ryan: on and sort it out. A kind of a fool's errand, if
Anne Ryan: you like. The failure of that picture was concurrent with
Anne Ryan: difficulties in his personal life. He was married to Wendy.
Anne Ryan: They had a small daughter and they were making a
Anne Ryan: life over there. But he was sinking into drinking too
Anne Ryan: much and getting involved with stuff that wasn't helping his
Anne Ryan: work and certainly wasn't helping his family life. So it
Anne Ryan: was a, really, a crisis moment for him. He left,
Anne Ryan: pretty much just upped and left New York and disappeared,
Anne Ryan: went to Fiji and Wendy was left to kind of
Anne Ryan: tidy up the life and move the family to follow him, [they]
Anne Ryan: had to leave Fiji and had to come back to
Anne Ryan: Australia and really, I think it was at that moment
Anne Ryan: when he came back here and he thought, 'Right, I'm
Anne Ryan: from here, this is my place, I've got to make work
Anne Ryan: about this place.' And so it's kind of where he
Anne Ryan: felt he had to start on a new path. And
Anne Ryan: this picture is like a very loud declaration of that.
Fenella Kernebone: We know now that Brett made it work here in Australia, artistically,
Fenella Kernebone: at least. 'Alchemy' is firmly part of the Australian canon.
Fenella Kernebone: But what did people think of it at the time?
Anne Ryan: Well, nobody had ever seen anything quite like it. And
Anne Ryan: when it was shown commercially in Sydney after it was
Anne Ryan: made in 1973, it was shown with a whole bunch
Anne Ryan: of other materials, notebooks and things. His thoughts, his ideas, quotations,
Anne Ryan: lot of which didn't make sense. A lot of what
Anne Ryan: he wrote was - for a reader that wasn't him - is
Anne Ryan: hard to understand or fathom, and some of it feels
Anne Ryan: really deep and some of feels shallow, and it's because
Anne Ryan: he just got it all out there and wrote it
Anne Ryan: all down. And he used to have ... the exhibition openings
Anne Ryan: he used to have at the time were events, they
Anne Ryan: were happenings you know, there'd be all sorts of things
Anne Ryan: going on. So, of course, people thought it was amazing.
Anne Ryan: Of course, it's the kind of picture which is really,
Anne Ryan: really hard to deal with. You can't buy it for
Anne Ryan: your house. You can't. You can't stick it above the fireplace.
Anne Ryan: Doesn't match my couch.
Anne Ryan: It's bigger than most museum walls, so it's kind of
Anne Ryan: a problem as well. And so having the ability to
Anne Ryan: display it in this form, in the Brett Whiteley Studio in Sydney,
Anne Ryan: is a rare thing. It demands a lot of space.
Anne Ryan: Some artists kind of demand a lot of space, and
Anne Ryan: this picture certainly does that.
Fenella Kernebone: So how does Brett Whiteley's legacy sit within Australia's contemporary
Fenella Kernebone: art landscape? And how do Australia's contemporary artists view this legacy?
Fenella Kernebone: Many of the artists who have spoken to in this
Fenella Kernebone: podcast studied Brett Whiteley at school. In fact, lots of
Fenella Kernebone: school students did, even I did when I was at high school.
Fenella Kernebone: One of those is Abdul Abdullah, who we spoke to
Fenella Kernebone: in episode 4. As a seventh-generation Australian Muslim, his work tackles the
Fenella Kernebone: big themes of what it means to be Australian in
Fenella Kernebone: a contemporary multicultural landscape.
Abdul Abdullah: Brett Whiteley was the first artist I was introduced to
Abdul Abdullah: when studying art in high school. He was the Australian name
Abdul Abdullah: that we're all familiar with and we all had some
Abdul Abdullah: idea of the type of work that he produced.
Fenella Kernebone: And did you like his work growing up? Can you
Fenella Kernebone: remember your feelings about his work, if you had any?
Abdul Abdullah: I certainly had an aesthetic connection to his work. It's
Abdul Abdullah: an interesting story 'cause that relationship has shifted and changed. The
Abdul Abdullah: first thing that I was introduced to were his 'Zoo' series
Abdul Abdullah: or the ink drawings, the 'Zoo' series. And I remember
Abdul Abdullah: particularly a drawing of a, like a, it would have been a baboon,
Abdul Abdullah: like a very angry looking baboon that I looked at
Abdul Abdullah: in high school, and I was quite enamoured by it. And
Abdul Abdullah: that image has stuck with me ever since I think.
Fenella Kernebone: What is it about the image, the fact that it's
Fenella Kernebone: just so visceral, angry, whatever?
Abdul Abdullah: Yeah, there's a way that he painted it. I think,
Abdul Abdullah: in brush marks, the way it was almost a caricature of
Abdul Abdullah: a baboon, but it was very aggressive in the way
Abdul Abdullah: that the baboon was reacting, I guess. And I hadn't
Abdul Abdullah: seen much drawing like that outside of comic books and
Abdul Abdullah: that sort of thing. So I guess that was an
Abdul Abdullah: appeal for me, especially like when I was, like 13
Abdul Abdullah: or 14 when I was looking at it.
Fenella Kernebone: Abdul's recognition in the art world has some similarity with
Fenella Kernebone: Brett's - he's a five-times finalist of the Archibald Prize, a finalist
Fenella Kernebone: of the Wynne landscape prize and Sulman Prize, and he won
Fenella Kernebone: the Blake Prize in 2011. So what does he think when he looks at 'Alchemy'?
Abdul Abdullah: Looking at it, it's sort of, it's hard not to relate it
Abdul Abdullah: to recent works that I've done. So I had a
Abdul Abdullah: show at the Armory Show in New York at the
Abdul Abdullah: beginning of the year [2020], which was a multi-panel work that
Abdul Abdullah: went across three walls, sort of all encompassing in a
Abdul Abdullah: similar way that 'Alchemy' is exhibited. And there was a correlation
Abdul Abdullah: in the way that it was made.
Fenella Kernebone: It's interesting because if you think about 'Alchemy' and you
Fenella Kernebone: think about some of his other works - obviously, 'Alchemy' is
Fenella Kernebone: a case in point, you know - it has a lot of
Fenella Kernebone: mixed mediums that is in it. He's drawn on it, he's
Fenella Kernebone: put sculptural bits on it, the whole 'kit and caboodle', as
Fenella Kernebone: they say, is part of it. And that's something that
Fenella Kernebone: you also do, to a degree.
Abdul Abdullah: Yeah, I guess I really appreciate the freeness in the
Abdul Abdullah: way that he produces a work. Like the fact that
Abdul Abdullah: he feels unencumbered by a particular medium and he can move
Abdul Abdullah: across things. And what I can really appreciate is the
Abdul Abdullah: idea of him wanting to communicate an idea and not
Abdul Abdullah: being limited in the way that he's going to communicate it.
Abdul Abdullah: He's still working on it like a 2D surface was sculptural
Abdul Abdullah: form but there's a freeness to the way that he works
Abdul Abdullah: that I really like and I can really relate to
Abdul Abdullah: in the way that I produce work. I like to
Abdul Abdullah: have an expanded practice in terms of materials and not
Abdul Abdullah: feel sort of tied down or totally married or attached
Abdul Abdullah: to specifically paint.
Fenella Kernebone: When you look at a work like 'Alchemy', it's clear
Fenella Kernebone: that Brett is trying to get something down on the
Fenella Kernebone: canvas or rather, a whole lot of things down. It's
Fenella Kernebone: his story his legacy, of course, that's now interpreted through
Fenella Kernebone: the lens of the current cultural landscape. So as a
Fenella Kernebone: contemporary artist, I'm curious to know where Abdul thinks Brett
Fenella Kernebone: and his legacy fits today.
Abdul Abdullah: That's a really interesting question, 'cause I think there's good
Abdul Abdullah: and there's bad. Aand this is only theorising again, I'm
Abdul Abdullah: not telling you how it is, but I don't know
Abdul Abdullah: how it is, but I've got plenty of theories about it,
Abdul Abdullah: and I thought about it a lot, about the legacy
Abdul Abdullah: of an artist like Brett Whitely. And it's difficult to
Abdul Abdullah: separate the man from the from his practice. So to
Abdul Abdullah: isolate those paintings and go, 'This is what they're about'...
Abdul Abdullah: It's hard not to include his life as context for
Abdul Abdullah: that work. But on the other hand, his legacy as
Abdul Abdullah: an Australian artist is, sort of, that lineage has gone
Abdul Abdullah: in all sorts of different ways through art schools and
Abdul Abdullah: the way that people approach... Like I have to, looking at
Abdul Abdullah: his ink drawings of those animals, like that has still
Abdul Abdullah: stuck with me. And every Australian artists that I know
Abdul Abdullah: has been sort of at least, if not directly influenced,
Abdul Abdullah: there's an implicit influence in the way that they make
Abdul Abdullah: their work as 'the Australian artist'. There's also that dangerous legacy
Abdul Abdullah: of 'this is what an Australian artist is', this sort
Abdul Abdullah: of 'tortured genius', and 'this is what you have to
Abdul Abdullah: be to be an artist', which I think is pretty archaic.
Fenella Kernebone: That was really interesting. This idea that to be an
Fenella Kernebone: artist and to have legacy, you have to be kind
Fenella Kernebone: of tortured. Tell me a bit about what your thoughts
Fenella Kernebone: are on that.
Abdul Abdullah: Yeah. Like thinking about the legacy of Brett Whiteley and
Abdul Abdullah: that perception in Australia of what an artist should be
Abdul Abdullah: or how an artist should behave and how you have
Abdul Abdullah: to be that tortured genius to sort of express yourself.
Abdul Abdullah: And for the audience, there is this voyeurism that's attached to it where
Abdul Abdullah: you're seeing almost a person spiralling or act or behaving in a
Abdul Abdullah: way that either they wish they'd want to behave like
Abdul Abdullah: or they could behave like or just out of, like
Abdul Abdullah: watching a rock star damage themselves, and they need to
Abdul Abdullah: be that damaged to create this genius work. But for me,
Abdul Abdullah: even the idea of genius is really problematic. That idea
Abdul Abdullah: of someone being elevated intellectually or otherwise above everyone else is,
Abdul Abdullah: I think, at it's very base, kind of wrong. And
Abdul Abdullah: as far as legacy, it's hard to say with established
Abdul Abdullah: Australian artists but like, I've you know, spent a lot of
Abdul Abdullah: time in different art schools, and it's funny you're seeing
Abdul Abdullah: especially young male painters like mirroring him and the way
Abdul Abdullah: that he painted - the craziness, the hair, everything about him -
Abdul Abdullah: that was who they wanted to be and who they
Abdul Abdullah: thought they had to be. But I don't know if
Abdul Abdullah: that's necessarily the best way to communicate, and I don't
Abdul Abdullah: know how that fits in the 21st-century context. I think
Abdul Abdullah: we are responsible - not that the people then had any less responsibility -
Abdul Abdullah: but we are certainly responsible for everything that we're saying
Abdul Abdullah: that we do.
Fenella Kernebone: Do you think we need to create a new legacy?
Fenella Kernebone: And if we do, what kind of new legacy would
Fenella Kernebone: you , could you imagine?
Abdul Abdullah: A new legacy? I think artists like Richard Bell are creating a new
Abdul Abdullah: legacy for how Australian art is seen, especially how Australian art is
Abdul Abdullah: seen from the outside. Richard Bell is an Aboriginal artist
Abdul Abdullah: from Brisbane. He's one of the founding members of a
Abdul Abdullah: collective called ProppaNow , which I think is the best
Abdul Abdullah: group of artists, the best group of artists in the country.
Abdul Abdullah: He works mostly with painting, but he's also done a
Abdul Abdullah: lot of video installation. He's travelled a tent embassy, which
Abdul Abdullah: is an artwork but also a point of of protest.
Abdul Abdullah: He calls himself an activist masquerading as an artist, and
Abdul Abdullah: I really like that. His visual literacy, his visual language
Abdul Abdullah: is not something that can be copied. And I see him
Abdul Abdullah: as a mentor, but I'm not trying to emulate his
Abdul Abdullah: practice or his language or his style or anything like that.
Abdul Abdullah: I just see him as sort of like someone that
Abdul Abdullah: I could look up to in the way that in
Abdul Abdullah: the way that he practises. And I think that he's
Abdul Abdullah: got a lot to offer to the Australian conscience. For me,
Abdul Abdullah: he's the best. Richard's having an exhibition at the Tate
Abdul Abdullah: Modern either next year or the year after, and Brett
Abdul Abdullah: Whiteley was acquired by the Tate Modern, but I can't think of
Abdul Abdullah: an Australian artist who's had a solid presentation in a
Abdul Abdullah: space like that. I even joked around with Richard that there's
Abdul Abdullah: an Australian in Venice every two years, but there's never
Abdul Abdullah: been an Australian at the Tate Modern. So this is for
Abdul Abdullah: me is a rawer legacy of Australian art, what Richard represents. His life experiences
Abdul Abdullah: and how he articulates that Australian experience and that uniquely
Abdul Abdullah: Australian experience. I think that is really, really valuable and
Abdul Abdullah: valuable to how Australian art is perceived going into the future.
Abdul Abdullah: And I think without that context - and it's hard because
Abdul Abdullah: like I said, I don't know Brett Whiteley, I don't
Abdul Abdullah: know his personal experiences - but it's hard to see art
Abdul Abdullah: that was made in Australia or art that was made
Abdul Abdullah: by an Australian artist in the sixties and seventies that
Abdul Abdullah: didn't explicitly or even, in my eyes, implicitly consider like
Abdul Abdullah: an Indigenous experience. It seems to be a big part
Abdul Abdullah: of the puzzle that's missing. And that's very frustrating. And
Abdul Abdullah: then when you see Australian artists now from that generation,
Abdul Abdullah: who are still working, who are dismissive of Aboriginal practices, like
Abdul Abdullah: the artist [Betty Kuntiwa Pumani] in the Wynne Prize - I think John Olsen said that he didn't consider [the winning work 'Antara' 2019 a landscape -
Abdul Abdullah: that sort of thing is, yeah, it's hard not to
Abdul Abdullah: be cynical.
Fenella Kernebone: Brett Whiteley's legacy is inescapable. His images are ubiquitous and
Fenella Kernebone: his paintings recognisable to many Australians. But his biographer, Ashleigh Wilson,
Fenella Kernebone: says Brett himself was always struggling with that question of
Fenella Kernebone: where he would fit within the history or legacy of art,
Fenella Kernebone: often referencing his own mentors and influences within his own paintings.
Ashleigh Wilson: Brett was very conscious of his role in the journey
Ashleigh Wilson: of art and in the timeline of art in general -
Ashleigh Wilson: Australian art and art globally. He was very conscious of
Ashleigh Wilson: the Australian art tradition. And he was very conscious of
Ashleigh Wilson: being a part of it, and the responsibility and the
Ashleigh Wilson: weight of carrying that, you know, was very heavy upon him.
Ashleigh Wilson: He was a great student of history, of art history
Ashleigh Wilson: and he knew where ... the heroes of the past, his
Ashleigh Wilson: visual heroes of the past he was acutely conscious and respectfully aware,
Ashleigh Wilson: I think of jumping into that timeline. And so his
Ashleigh Wilson: relationship with Lloyd Rees at the end of Lloyd's life
Ashleigh Wilson: at a personal level, but especially at an artistic level,
Ashleigh Wilson: was profound. But really early in Brett's career, when he
Ashleigh Wilson: was still in Sydney, he decided to go to Sofala [NSW]
Ashleigh Wilson: one day, a big boozy weekend, probably with a couple
Ashleigh Wilson: of mates, Michael Johnson and others. And he created a
Ashleigh Wilson: picture which is called 'Sofala'. But in doing so, he was
Ashleigh Wilson: very consciously putting himself in an artistic tradition.
Fenella Kernebone: As someone who has spent a great deal of time
Fenella Kernebone: studying and writing about Brett - not as an historian or
Fenella Kernebone: a critic, but as a writer and a journalist - Ashleigh
Fenella Kernebone: has his own ideas about Brett's legacy.
Ashleigh Wilson: It's always for other people to assess his own significance and legacy.
Ashleigh Wilson: But I think what's important is that his life story -
Ashleigh Wilson: and this is funny for a biographer to say - but
Ashleigh Wilson: is largely irrelevant to some extent; it's irrelevant without without
Ashleigh Wilson: presence of his art. Because if we were just talking
Ashleigh Wilson: about a charismatic drug addict who had a number of famous friends,
Ashleigh Wilson: it would have a limited interest, but interest all the same.
Ashleigh Wilson: But the fact that he still captures the imagination of
Ashleigh Wilson: so many people is not something to be ignored, and
Ashleigh Wilson: it speaks to the enduring legacy of his work. And
Ashleigh Wilson: if we're going to continue to to talk about him,
Ashleigh Wilson: think about him and think of him as an important figure,
Ashleigh Wilson: then it will be on the basis of his work
Ashleigh Wilson: and his life that that happens. One of the things
Ashleigh Wilson: that I like about him and about his legacy is
Ashleigh Wilson: that you can hardly help wandering past Sydney Harbour on a
Ashleigh Wilson: rainy day or sunny day, either way, it doesn't even need
Ashleigh Wilson: to be outside Lavender Bay but when you just notice out of
Ashleigh Wilson: the corner of your eyes the streaks of white at
Ashleigh Wilson: the back of ships going past or a bird flying
Ashleigh Wilson: past and you realise that you're kind of looking at
Ashleigh Wilson: a Whiteley coming to life, and it's like the landscape
Ashleigh Wilson: bending to his vision.
Fenella Kernebone: It seems fitting that rather than leaving behind a written autobiography,
Fenella Kernebone: Brett instead left us with an artwork to tell the
Fenella Kernebone: story of his life. And like the man himself, the
Fenella Kernebone: artwork is incredibly complex, slowly drawing you in to show
Fenella Kernebone: you a world filled with joy and turmoil. In keeping Brett's
Fenella Kernebone: legacy alive, his mother, the late Beryl Whiteley, established and generously
Fenella Kernebone: allocated funds to administer the Brett Whiteley Travelling Art Scholarship.
Fenella Kernebone: Its goal is to encourage excellence in painting, but it's
Fenella Kernebone: also about offering young artists the same opportunity to develop
Fenella Kernebone: their careers as were afforded to her son. The scholarship
Fenella Kernebone: is a painting prize for artists aged between 20 to
Fenella Kernebone: 30 with an established body of work who are best
Fenella Kernebone: able to demonstrate the use and benefit of the scholarship
Fenella Kernebone: to further their art education in Europe. If you want
Fenella Kernebone: to find out more information about that scholarship, head over
Fenella Kernebone: to the Studio website. While some parts of Brett's legacy
Fenella Kernebone: may be best left in the past, his works and
Fenella Kernebone: the impact of his art will always hold a special
Fenella Kernebone: place for many of us. And I'm sure that his
Fenella Kernebone: way of approaching art will continue to inspire future generations
Fenella Kernebone: of young Australian artists, pushing them to follow in his
Fenella Kernebone: footsteps to create art that continues to push the boundaries.
Anne Ryan: Brett Whiteley is part of the canon of Australian art - if
Anne Ryan: there is such a thing, I think there still is -
Anne Ryan: so he's an artist that will be remembered as an
Anne Ryan: historical figure I have found. When I've looked at artists
Anne Ryan: from the past that there is this situation where an
Anne Ryan: artist is contemporary, then they're no longer relevant. Then they're historical.
Anne Ryan: Then they're rediscovered, and I think that Brett Whiteley and
Anne Ryan: his work will be part of that trajectory. I think
Anne Ryan: there are generations of young people who don't know his
Anne Ryan: art like my generation did when he was alive. The
Anne Ryan: great thing about the Studio, of course, is that people
Anne Ryan: can discover him for the first time or return to
Anne Ryan: him as a familiar friend. And so I think his legacy,
Anne Ryan: because the highest points of his career were iconic works
Anne Ryan: in the story of Australian painting, he will always have that place,
Anne Ryan: but his relevance will depend on each successive generation and
Anne Ryan: how they respond to what he does.
Fenella Kernebone: Thank you to this episode's guests, Wendy Whiteley, Anne Ryan,
Fenella Kernebone: Abdul Abdullah, Barry Pearce and Ashleigh Wilson. Throughout this series,
Fenella Kernebone: we've talked to Brett's family, peers, curators, writers and contemporary artists,
Fenella Kernebone: but still, we've only peeled back a small layer of
Fenella Kernebone: the Brett Whiteley's catalogue to explore the alchemy that goes
Fenella Kernebone: into creating great works of art. So if you want
Fenella Kernebone: to find out more, the best thing you can do
Fenella Kernebone: is head into the Brett Whiteley Studio yourself. It is
Fenella Kernebone: incredible to see those works up on his walls, where
Fenella Kernebone: he used to live and work and create art. You
Fenella Kernebone: can visit Brett's studio in Sydney from Thursday to Sunday.
Fenella Kernebone: Admission is free. This podcast was recorded live in the
Fenella Kernebone: Brett Whiteley Studio in Surry Hills. We would like to
Fenella Kernebone: acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which the
Fenella Kernebone: Brett Whiteley Studio stands, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation
Fenella Kernebone: and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
Fenella Kernebone: From our location here in this art museum, it is important
Fenella Kernebone: to acknowledge those sites that stood before. The Sydney region
Fenella Kernebone: has more rock engravings than any other city in Australia.
Fenella Kernebone: Some of these sites depict an intimate knowledge of the stars,
Fenella Kernebone: seafaring relationships with Pacific neighbours and complex social systems. Many
Fenella Kernebone: more have been desecrated and lost beneath shopping centres, roads, houses.
Fenella Kernebone: As we cherish and protect those works that hang on
Fenella Kernebone: gallery walls so too, should we be advocating for the awareness,
Fenella Kernebone: maintenance and protection of some of our nation's oldest art forms.
Fenella Kernebone: Thank you to the Brett Whiteley Foundation and the benefactors
Fenella Kernebone: of the Brett Whiteley Studio who have made this podcast possible.
Fenella Kernebone: Concepts, themes and episodes were developed by Michaela Angeloni, Alacoque Dash,
Fenella Kernebone: Alec George and Jennifer Macey. The producer is Jennifer Macey,
Fenella Kernebone: with production assistance by Alacoque Dash and Lizzie Jack. Production
Fenella Kernebone: supervision by Leonie Jones. Special thanks to Lucy Luo, Holly
Fenella Kernebone: Forrest and Grace Crivellaro, and Audiocraft for production support. The
Fenella Kernebone: Brett Whiteley Studio is managed by the Art Gallery of
Fenella Kernebone: New South Wales. Free admission is made possible by J.P Morgan.
Fenella Kernebone: For more information about the Brett Whiteley Studio, you can
Fenella Kernebone: go to their website where you can listen to audio
Fenella Kernebone: guides of current exhibitions. Go to artgallery.nsw.gov.au/brett-whiteley-studio
Fenella Kernebone: 'Art, life and the other thing' is brought to you
Fenella Kernebone: by the Brett Whiteley Studio in collaboration with the Art
Fenella Kernebone: Gallery of New South Wales. My name is Fenella Kernebone. It's
Fenella Kernebone: been wonderful being your host. Thanks for joining me.