Fenella Kernebone: A quick heads-up in this series: we talk about drug use, mental
Fenella Kernebone: health issues, and there's a bit of swearing.
Alec George: Welcome to the Brett Whiteley Studio. Have you been here before at all?
Fenella Kernebone: I'm Fenella Kernebone and this is 'Art, life and the other thing'. I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land
Fenella Kernebone: on which this podcast was made, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation.
Fenella Kernebone: This podcast is about Brett Whiteley and the big questions his
Fenella Kernebone: work brings up about the Australian arts landscape. In each episode,
Fenella Kernebone: I sit down with some of Australia's most exciting contemporary
Fenella Kernebone: artists and curators at the Brett Whiteley Studio to talk
Fenella Kernebone: about his work and how it's impacted on their own careers.
Fenella Kernebone: In this episode, we're looking at one of Brett Whiteley's
Fenella Kernebone: most recognisable paintings, 'The balcony 2'. To to see the piece online,
Fenella Kernebone: go to agnsw.art/bwspodcast. This piece is part of a series
Fenella Kernebone: Brett painted at his home in Lavender Bay in Sydney's north,
Fenella Kernebone: looking out at the view of Sydney's harbour.
Anne Ryan: It's a very joyful picture, and I think this painting
Anne Ryan: is about one of the slightly underrated but incredibly important
Anne Ryan: things that drove Brett Whiteley's art, and that was the
Anne Ryan: love of beauty.
Fenella Kernebone: Anne Ryan is curator of Australian art at the Art
Fenella Kernebone: Gallery of New South Wales. She says while we often
Fenella Kernebone: expect art to be serious, with meaningful and often political
Fenella Kernebone: messages, it's not always this way like with 'The balcony 2'.
Anne Ryan: Sometimes art can just be about what makes us happy
Anne Ryan: and what is beautiful. It's a very lyrical picture, and
Anne Ryan: by lyrical I mean, it has a great sense of
Anne Ryan: ease in the way that the forms are painted. The
Anne Ryan: forms are recognisable. In this picture, we can see trees, boats, structures,
Anne Ryan: the landforms, and we can see the shimmer of light
Anne Ryan: on the blue water of Sydney Harbour. But also there's
Anne Ryan: a sense of abstraction about this picture as well, which
Anne Ryan: I think is very appealing. So while we know what
Anne Ryan: we're looking at and we know where we are with
Anne Ryan: this picture, the lyricism of it, the poetry of it
Anne Ryan: is the sense of evoking the feeling of what it
Anne Ryan: is to see and to experience this place and this subject.
Fenella Kernebone: 'The balcony 2' is considered by many to be one
Fenella Kernebone: of Australia's greatest artworks. But how does one painting gains
Fenella Kernebone: such celebrity?
Anne Ryan: Occasionally an artist or a picture will come along that
Anne Ryan: really strikes a chord with how people feel about a place.
Anne Ryan: If you think about the paintings of Fred Williams for example,
Anne Ryan: that sense of the of scrubby dryness of the Australian
Anne Ryan: bush, once you see that, you sort of understand it and
Anne Ryan: you wonder why no one ever did it before. And
Anne Ryan: it's the same with this picture by Brett Whiteley of
Anne Ryan: Sydney Harbour. This lovely, hedonistic, outdoorsy feeling of how we'd
Anne Ryan: like Sydney to be and the best face of Sydney. Obviously,
Anne Ryan: Sydney is not just the harbour. It's not just beautiful boats,
Anne Ryan: it's not leisure, it's not the beautiful, graceful arc of the
Anne Ryan: Harbour Bridge and the Opera House. But it is something,
Anne Ryan: and it is something that we treasure as being distinctively
Anne Ryan: Sydney and distinctively ours, and so occasionally a painting such
Anne Ryan: as this will come along that really does strike that chord
Anne Ryan: and stays with us.
Fenella Kernebone: Yeah, it makes you feel happy when you look at it.
Fenella Kernebone: It's a picture that I think of when I think
Fenella Kernebone: of Brett Whiteley. This is the one that [when] you come
Fenella Kernebone: into the Art Gallery as a kid – when I was a kid,
Fenella Kernebone: at least in the eighties – this was the picture that
Fenella Kernebone: was right there on the mezzanine on that foyer there.
Fenella Kernebone: But then when you look at it, you're right. You
Fenella Kernebone: feel like you can just jump in there and have
Fenella Kernebone: a swim. So what is it about this work that
Fenella Kernebone: just makes, I don't know, it makes you feel like you're
Fenella Kernebone: at home?
Anne Ryan: You know, those dreams you have when you're flying? This
Anne Ryan: work evokes that feeling. For me, it feels like something
Anne Ryan: that you want to be part of and this painting makes
Anne Ryan: you part of that.
Fenella Kernebone: Brett Whiteley's former wife, Wendy Whiteley, has her own ideas
Fenella Kernebone: about why this painting achieved its status.
Wendy Whiteley: This is a very well known, probably the best known
Wendy Whiteley: of Brett's harbour pictures. First of all, it's got the balcony,
Wendy Whiteley: which we used to look out over across the top
Wendy Whiteley: of the Moreton Bay fig, which has now doubled in height, so
Wendy Whiteley: it's much more difficult. The view, it has the bird,
Wendy Whiteley: which he used a lot, flying across it. It's got
Wendy Whiteley: a plum tree and in the left hand lower corner,
Wendy Whiteley: it's got the bridge, and then the introduction of this edge,
Wendy Whiteley: the white edge. It's very clear in this one. And
Wendy Whiteley: that denotes the artist being on the inside of a building,
Wendy Whiteley: looking out of a window frame, which is kind of
Wendy Whiteley: the way of making both the interior exist in your
Wendy Whiteley: mind and the outside, the view being the outside of
Wendy Whiteley: the window frame, which is that white line that goes
Wendy Whiteley: around the outside. So once again it's an attempt at two
Wendy Whiteley: kinds of perspectives. The balcony has a three dimensional thing, the
Wendy Whiteley: boats are very flattened, the bridge has got a 3D thing;
Wendy Whiteley: it's that double distance that Brett uses, more often than not.
Fenella Kernebone: The painting has been described as having a flat picture plane,
Fenella Kernebone: meaning there's no depth of field, and the objects don't
Fenella Kernebone: look in proportion to each other. But Wendy says the
Fenella Kernebone: way Brett applied the paint means there's a depth to
Fenella Kernebone: the colour and hence a sense of depth to the water.
Wendy Whiteley: Well, this is paint on canvas, of course. So when
Wendy Whiteley: he paints on canvas the paint is very much thinner than,
Wendy Whiteley: you know, thinner layers so you can see in the blue.
Wendy Whiteley: In this - which Brett became very well known for, the blue,
Wendy Whiteley: this use of the blue, but it's not a flat
Wendy Whiteley: blue - you can see that there are dark shades coming through
Wendy Whiteley: the blue itself and because it's on canvas that's very
Wendy Whiteley: thin layers put on and then rubbed back with a
Wendy Whiteley: rag so the paint doesn't get too thick. So it's
Wendy Whiteley: the opposite of somebody painting emotion with very thick paint.
Wendy Whiteley: But it gives a kind of subtle colour to the
Wendy Whiteley: water that, it's not just a big, flat plane itself.
Wendy Whiteley: It's got depths and shadows, things going on, even though
Wendy Whiteley: overall it strikes you as being very blue.
Fenella Kernebone: When we consider what makes an artwork recognisable, subject matter
Fenella Kernebone: plays a big role. In this case, we can't ignore
Fenella Kernebone: the fact that 'The balcony 2' is a painting of a very
Fenella Kernebone: famous landscape. But how does a now iconic painting fit
Fenella Kernebone: in amongst other great landscape paintings? Here's Anne Ryan again.
Anne Ryan: Some of the most exciting and amazing landscape pictures, of course,
Anne Ryan: are by Indigenous artists in Australia. As time has gone on,
Anne Ryan: and as we have had more experience of the Australian landscape,
Anne Ryan: we see the multiplicities of Australian landscapes and places. For
Anne Ryan: some artists, it was the outback, like Albert Namatjira: it was his
Anne Ryan: Country up there at Herrmannsburg. For Fred Williams, it was
Anne Ryan: the dry, scrubby land of regional Victoria or New South Wales. For
Anne Ryan: Brett Whiteley it was Sydney Harbour. And let's face it,
Anne Ryan: most of us live in the urban fringes of this continent.
Anne Ryan: It's the landscape that we actually live with, and in Sydney
Anne Ryan: we live with that big expanse of blue water. And
Anne Ryan: so for him, he was claiming that bit of Australia
Anne Ryan: for his own art in a way that artists before
Anne Ryan: him and artists after him have claimed their own bit
Anne Ryan: of Australia and their own landscape within that big tradition
Anne Ryan: of the Australian landscape.
Fenella Kernebone: Claiming a patch of dirt and depicting their own landscapes
Fenella Kernebone: is what many artists do: painting streetscapes, suburban houses, city
Fenella Kernebone: lights or the bush that borders their hometowns. One contemporary
Fenella Kernebone: artist who subverts the traditional idea of the landscape is
Fenella Kernebone: Abdul Abdullah.
Abdul Abdullah: My name is Abdul Abdullah, and I'm an artist. Originally
Abdul Abdullah: from Perth, but now I'm based and live in Sydney.
Abdul Abdullah: I work mostly with painting, but across all sorts of
Abdul Abdullah: different mediums, so sculpture and video and installation.
Fenella Kernebone: Abdul is a five-time Archibald Prize finalist. He was also
Fenella Kernebone: a finalist in the 2020 Sulman Prize and a finalist
Fenella Kernebone: in the 2019 Wynne landscape prize. He was selected as
Fenella Kernebone: a Wynne finalist with a work called 'A terrible burden'.
Fenella Kernebone: It's a beautiful oil painting on linen of rolling green hills,
Fenella Kernebone: moody clouds and an imposing mountain range in the background,
Fenella Kernebone: with the words 'a terrible burden' scrawled over the top
Fenella Kernebone: in white. The work is a commentary on how white
Fenella Kernebone: artists and colonists have claimed the Australian landscape as their
Fenella Kernebone: own and not necessarily shared it fairly with the original
Fenella Kernebone: custodians and later migrant arrivals. Looking at a painting like 'The balcony 2'
Fenella Kernebone: with Abdul, I wanted to know how it stacks up
Fenella Kernebone: against his own views of Sydney.
Abdul Abdullah: The way that the blue has been applied compared to
Abdul Abdullah: the white marks over the top and then the edge
Abdul Abdullah: of the balcony, which is in the foreground and then
Abdul Abdullah: the bridge in the distance, those types of things are very
Abdul Abdullah: iconically Sydney, I think. Iconically Sydney, especially for me, coming
Abdul Abdullah: from Perth and not really knowing Sydney. What I knew
Abdul Abdullah: of Sydney before moving here was the Opera House and
Abdul Abdullah: Circular Quay. Now living in Sydney, it's a bit of
Abdul Abdullah: a different experience. That particular view of Lavender Bay says
Abdul Abdullah: something else. I guess it's a view from a particular
Abdul Abdullah: part of Sydney that I'm less familiar with even now
Abdul Abdullah: living in Sydney. So it's again another sort of strange
Abdul Abdullah: relationship with that type of iconic imagery and what it
Abdul Abdullah: represents and who it serves and whose vision it is
Abdul Abdullah: in a 2020 context.
Fenella Kernebone: Well, tell me a bit about that. Whose vision is
Fenella Kernebone: it in a 2020 context? How do you perceive this
Fenella Kernebone: painting today?
Abdul Abdullah: I don't want to sound too much like an arsehole,
Abdul Abdullah: but it sounds for me ... When I look at that
Abdul Abdullah: image, now it's the view from a very wealthy person's apartment
Abdul Abdullah: of a very nice, expensive view that seems so distant
Abdul Abdullah: from where I grew up and the people that I
Abdul Abdullah: grew up with. So it's foreign and I almost feel
Abdul Abdullah: like a tourist in my own city looking at that image.
Fenella Kernebone: Of course, when Brett and Wendy moved into the flat
Fenella Kernebone: in North Sydney, the area wasn't what it is now.
Fenella Kernebone: It was an affordable haven for artists back then with
Fenella Kernebone: world-famous views, of course. Do you think of it as an
Fenella Kernebone: iconic landscape in Australia?
Abdul Abdullah: It is in the fact that it's like, well known, like I've
Abdul Abdullah: known this painting since... it's like the very first paintings that
Abdul Abdullah: I've seen, but I don't know where it sits for
Abdul Abdullah: me personally in the idea of the iconic Australian landscape
Abdul Abdullah: and even the phrase 'iconic Australian landscape' is always sat
Abdul Abdullah: kind of funny with me, particularly from a colonial and
Abdul Abdullah: white Australian perspective, the idea of taking ownership or taking,
Abdul Abdullah: claiming a space as somebody's own. And I'm also very
Abdul Abdullah: critical of the idea of genius, especially when it's applied
Abdul Abdullah: to an artist as a way to sort of justify some
Abdul Abdullah: behaviours that are perhaps ungenerous or unkind. So it's a relationship
Abdul Abdullah: with paintings like this and a history of Australian painting that
Abdul Abdullah: is often really quite uncomfortable.
Fenella Kernebone: The way that we look at the landscape today, the
Fenella Kernebone: way that you look at the landscape today - considering the 20-plus
Fenella Kernebone: years of conversation and potential change that might have happened
Fenella Kernebone: in this country - what is the different conversation, particularly for you,
Fenella Kernebone: that you're trying to get across that may not appear in
Fenella Kernebone: a painting like 'The balcony 2' in terms of the landscape?
Abdul Abdullah: It's a difficult one in particular with that painting to
Abdul Abdullah: disconnect it from its value in being read as 'this
Abdul Abdullah: is a painting that's really, really, really expensive' and to
Abdul Abdullah: remove that cost or that market value away from it,
Abdul Abdullah: and to remove the context of who Brett Whiteley was
Abdul Abdullah: in the Australian imagination... If I was to look at
Abdul Abdullah: that painting, I'd go, 'Oh, that's a nice painting', but that's
Abdul Abdullah: as far as it would go. For me, it represented
Abdul Abdullah: an attitude of a generation of Australian artists that felt
Abdul Abdullah: a certain sense of entitlement to the space. They exist
Abdul Abdullah: in a certain sense of entitlement over the discourse that
Abdul Abdullah: for me, excluded alternative, marginalised, black and brown voices in
Abdul Abdullah: the way that they spoke. So it's part of an
Abdul Abdullah: ongoing conversation and discourse that's developing in my own arguments.
Abdul Abdullah: I don't have a clear and concise argument about it.
Fenella Kernebone: Abdul was first introduced to Brett Whiteley's artwork in high school,
Fenella Kernebone: and this is still the way that many Australians first
Fenella Kernebone: come to learn about Brett's work, helping to cement his
Fenella Kernebone: legacy with the next generation. But just what is that legacy,
Fenella Kernebone: and is it something that we still need to know about?
Fenella Kernebone: Or is it time for a shift?
Blak Douglas: Well, I can give you a crafty answer ...
Fenella Kernebone: This is Adam Douglas Hill.
Blak Douglas: My art moniker is Blak Douglas and I work out of Marrickville, originally
Blak Douglas: hail from Dharug Country in Western Sydney. Look, we we
Blak Douglas: take our hats off to Brett for being pretty much a [Jean-Michel] Basquiat
Blak Douglas: of Australian art. But the fundamental dilemma is why has
Blak Douglas: no other artists come close to being a successive finalist in
Blak Douglas: all three awards?
Fenella Kernebone: Blak Doulas is a three-time Archibald finalist, a finalist in
Fenella Kernebone: the Wynne landscape prize and has won the Kilgour portrait prize.
Fenella Kernebone: Trained as a graphic designer, Blak Douglas' paintings are strongly
Fenella Kernebone: influenced by graphic design. They're big and they're bright. But
Fenella Kernebone: if you look closely, you'll see thick dabs of paint
Fenella Kernebone: and the mark of the brush. And if you look
Fenella Kernebone: even closer, you'll see political commentary about social justice, the
Fenella Kernebone: environment and the dispossession of Aboriginal land and culture. When
Fenella Kernebone: it comes to a legacy like Brett Whiteley's, Blak Douglas says,
Fenella Kernebone: 'It's complicated.'
Blak Douglas: There are many dilemmas with his superstardom status. A male
Blak Douglas: who got that status, so there really hasn't been a female ...
Blak Douglas: But if there has been a female come close to
Blak Douglas: having the same status, I'm very happy to say that
Blak Douglas: that's probably Emily Kngwarreye. And these are moulds that we
Blak Douglas: need to break for obvious reasons. Also, when are we
Blak Douglas: going to see an Aboriginal artist celebrated to this extent, save for
Blak Douglas: what I just said of Emily? But it seems like
Blak Douglas: Brett has succeeded in this, you know, superstardom, idyllic artist kind
Blak Douglas: of artistic lifestyle. And it's just been bottled and put
Blak Douglas: on a shelf for museum purposes, you know? And I
Blak Douglas: guess this being able to visit this studio isn't it
Blak Douglas: is a perfect example of that. So there needs to
Blak Douglas: be more celebrated roughness around the edges in art, and
Blak Douglas: there are obvious reasons why that doesn't happen. But I'm
Blak Douglas: really hoping that those constraints shrivel up and blow away
Blak Douglas: really quickly.
Fenella Kernebone: And there's something about the era too. I mean, this is sort
Fenella Kernebone: of the sixties - fifties, sixties, seventies - there was this time,
Fenella Kernebone: it was male, it was white. This is how it could
Fenella Kernebone: happen and perpetuate, and here we are today. You know, nobody gets
Fenella Kernebone: celebrated in quite the same way necessarily today. So maybe
Fenella Kernebone: there is a change or a shift.
Blak Douglas: Well, I'll tell you one example of why it's unlikely to change ...
Blak Douglas: let's be generous and say the next decade and that's because
Blak Douglas: the conservatism of this place is either going to be
Blak Douglas: disbanded or it's going to worsen. And that's a tremendous
Blak Douglas: impediment on art, as we know. And we see that
Blak Douglas: happening right now in the cuts of funding and whatever.
Blak Douglas: Why Brett made it to where he did - it's a
Blak Douglas: pretty indicative template - and that is you have to go
Blak Douglas: outside of this place. So he spent 10 years abroad,
Blak Douglas: as did Jeffrey Smart, as did John Olsen. You've got
Blak Douglas: to go to where people are growing up and have
Blak Douglas: a much more adult appreciation of your artistic efforts, and
Blak Douglas: that's still the same today. And so that's the advice
Blak Douglas: I say to all of the young people that are
Blak Douglas: aspiring to pursue art. It's just like just save your
Blak Douglas: bucks and get out of here as soon as you
Blak Douglas: can go and get the show on your CV in
Blak Douglas: whatever international art precinct [overseas] and come back here and they'll
Blak Douglas: look at you a little bit more seriously.
Fenella Kernebone: Making it in the arts - internationally - has long been associated
Fenella Kernebone: with cities like London and New York, two places Brett
Fenella Kernebone: was lucky enough to have lived as a young artist
Fenella Kernebone: and Blak Douglas is right, this would have had a big impact
Fenella Kernebone: on him coming home and so easily asserting himself here
Fenella Kernebone: in the Australian art world. But things have changed, so
Fenella Kernebone: would it be the same today?
Fenella Kernebone: But what is Australian identity to you today? Like what
Fenella Kernebone: is Australian identity to you today, but in in particular
Fenella Kernebone: how it's represented through identity in Australian art?
Blak Douglas: Australian identity today in art is as trepidatious as it was
Blak Douglas: when I began painting, and pretty much hasn't changed. And
Blak Douglas: in the sense that for the most part of most institutions,
Blak Douglas: major institutions, you'll still hear a foreigner ask, 'Why isn't
Blak Douglas: the First Nations artwork immediately in the foyer when you
Blak Douglas: walk into the institution?' And so sadly, I'd like to
Blak Douglas: see that change, and that's what I'm advocating for. However,
Blak Douglas: I know that I'm walking on a fine line whilst
Blak Douglas: trying to negate the Archibald and the other prizes as well,
Blak Douglas: without rustling their feathers too much or soiling the soiling
Blak Douglas: the collectible rug on the floor of the dining room.
Fenella Kernebone: The acclaimed artist Vincent Namatjira recently became the first Indigenous
Fenella Kernebone: Australian to win the Archibald Prize for his portrait of
Fenella Kernebone: football icon Adam Goodes. It was a big moment - one
Fenella Kernebone: that took 99 years. There are many takes on the
Fenella Kernebone: Australian landscape. We've heard about a few of them in
Fenella Kernebone: this episode, but Brett's take on Sydney makes a very
Fenella Kernebone: particular impression, and it's undeniable - it's that blue that is
Fenella Kernebone: at the heart of this.
Nicole Kelly: For me, I want to describe it in terms of
Nicole Kelly: colour and mark, really.
Fenella Kernebone: This is Nicole Kelly, a painter. She won the coveted
Fenella Kernebone: Brett Whiteley Travelling Art Scholarship when she was just 22.
Fenella Kernebone: Of all of the artists we're speaking to in this episode,
Fenella Kernebone: Nicole is the most traditional in terms of what we
Fenella Kernebone: refer to as a landscape painter. So what does she
Fenella Kernebone: think of Brett's harbour paintings?
Nicole Kelly: So this absolutely incredible blue, ultramarine, Prussian-y blue that floods
Nicole Kelly: the canvas, and I'm also drawn to this work for the
Nicole Kelly: really gestural white border where you can see the hand
Nicole Kelly: of lightly. I'm really interested in that because that's that
Nicole Kelly: embedding into space that I'm interested in my figures as well.
Nicole Kelly: So like then the white of the boats tie into that border, and they're kind of interlocked in the image.
Fenella Kernebone: The way you see it is pretty different to how I,
Fenella Kernebone: a mere mortal, might see it. So keep telling me
Fenella Kernebone: about what you see; I'm seeing obvious stuff, probably.
Nicole Kelly: Again, like I love this. I mean, I don't even care what
Nicole Kelly: it is, but I think it might be a balcony,
Nicole Kelly: but my brain doesn't care, but I love the line work
Nicole Kelly: that is kind of almost superimposed over these other marks
Nicole Kelly: with rich kind of texture, textural painting and what that does
Nicole Kelly: to space, how those marks and colour and materiality of
Nicole Kelly: paint work to make such a strong image. I don't know. That's, that's my love.
Fenella Kernebone: How does that make you feel?
Nicole Kelly: Good painting floods me with emotion that's hard to pinpoint, really like. It's somewhere between love and pain. Really. I can't describe why, but maybe
Nicole Kelly: it's a longing to make really good paintings.
Fenella Kernebone: Nicole's own landscape paintings are lush and textural landscapes, thick
Fenella Kernebone: with colour and emotion, providing a false sense of security
Fenella Kernebone: to draw viewers in and then subtly redirect them. It's this distorted expression of the landscape that exposes trauma and probes the flaws in our relationship to the environment and history. So
Fenella Kernebone: you said that you're grounded in landscape. That's that's we see.
Fenella Kernebone: Why do you paint yourself into the landscape?
Nicole Kelly: I feel like we have made such a significant impact, like
Nicole Kelly: humans and especially white humans have made such a kind
Nicole Kelly: of impact on this landscape. It's hard to look at
Nicole Kelly: the landscape and not kind of think about our impact
Nicole Kelly: or think about our relationship to it. I feel a
Nicole Kelly: really strong connection with landscapes, so I see my identity
Nicole Kelly: in a way as part of that landscape as well.
Nicole Kelly: I guess I'm trying to make sense of all of
Nicole Kelly: these different aspects of human relationship to nature through my work.
Fenella Kernebone: What makes a painting iconic? Does it come down to
Fenella Kernebone: a feeling? Is it as simple as saying, 'This is a
Fenella Kernebone: good piece of art and everybody else thinks so, too?' Or
Fenella Kernebone: is there more to it? Do artworks become iconic because
Fenella Kernebone: of an artist's place in society, the advantages that they may have?
Fenella Kernebone: Well, Brett was fortunate to live in a place that
Fenella Kernebone: allowed him views of the harbour that many people in
Fenella Kernebone: Sydney would rarely have had the chance to see in
Fenella Kernebone: their daily life. It gave him the opportunity to capture
Fenella Kernebone: a privileged view, and a landscape painting of somewhere like
Fenella Kernebone: Sydney Harbour can have such different meanings depending on who was
Fenella Kernebone: looking at it. It can simply be a beautiful image
Fenella Kernebone: of a well known place, but it can also be an
Fenella Kernebone: image that projects classism, privilege, ownership.
Fenella Kernebone: So can an artwork from the past remain as iconic
Fenella Kernebone: in the present and the future? Will the iconic paintings
Fenella Kernebone: of this time show images of fire-ravaged bush lands, demolished
Fenella Kernebone: forests or empty cities? Only time will tell. Thank you
Fenella Kernebone: to this episode's guests: Nicole Kelly, Wendy Whiteley, Anne Ryan,
Fenella Kernebone: Blak Douglas and Abdul Abdullah.
Fenella Kernebone: This podcast has been brought to you by the Brett
Fenella Kernebone: Whiteley Studio in collaboration with the Art Gallery of New
Fenella Kernebone: South Wales. To visit Brett Whiteley's studio, you can check it
Fenella Kernebone: out from Thursday to Sunday. Admission is free. I'm Fenella Kernebon,
Fenella Kernebone: thanks for joining us.