WEBVTT - Exposing How the Abortion Pill Harms Women with Jamie Hall 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:05.760 And it's terrifying. The thought that 10.93% of women are 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.800 experiencing one of these serious adverse events after taking the pill, 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:11.879 or any other drug that had an adverse event rate 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:15.720 like that would be pulled off the market, but not mifepristone, 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:18.880 because the left thinks women need abortion above all else. 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:27.480 Hi again everybody. Welcome to another episode of the narrative, 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.960 Mike Andrews. Aaron Bair with you today. And, Aaron, there 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:33.600 are weeks when we need to scour the news trying 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:35.880 to find something to talk about, and there are other 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.080 weeks where we can just talk about a day's worth 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.800 of press releases from, and that is where we're at today, 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:43.479 because what a day yesterday was. 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.840 Yeah. And let me just say to listen, guys, we 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:49.280 hear you. We send out a lot of emails, okay? 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:53.360 We know, uh, we're trying to figure out the best 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.560 way to synthesize all of this stuff down. We literally 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.200 just had our retreat with Mike and, uh, and all 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:01.440 the leadership team. And we were talking through it on. 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:03.960 All right. We are now sending because we're doing more 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:05.680 than we ever have, right. I mean, it's it's a 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:09.040 good problem to have. Um, but, you know, we we 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.600 had this whole conversation on Tuesday at our leadership team 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.840 retreat on. Yeah, we got to start figuring out, um, 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.920 other ways to communicate these things and all that. And yeah, 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:20.000 we're hearing the feedback that it's it's a lot a 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:23.080 lot of communications. And then literally the next day it's like, 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:25.039 so here's three things we're sending today. 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:27.240 And and what was so funny this is a little 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:29.160 bit how the sausage is made here. But we had 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:31.640 had a conversation on Monday like okay here's our rhythm. 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:33.399 Here's what we know what's coming. We can kind of 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.200 spread these out throughout the week and then nope, no. 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.080 Here's here's three things that have to go down. 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.720 Here's four emails before 11 a.m. on Wednesday. But they 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:42.959 are also but it's good. 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:46.039 Like I promise. Like we're only trying to do like 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:51.200 meaty things. Like, you should know, this just happened. This like, um, 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:52.760 and some of the stuff we're going to talk about today, 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:59.160 like it is like core core mission of, you know, why? 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.000 Why do people support us? Why do people come around 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:04.960 us is, you know, sign up for our emails is 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:08.959 there's so much stuff that happens in government, um, that 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:13.240 affects you and matters for how you vote. Uh, you know, like, 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:16.239 we don't we don't want voters that just, you know, 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.600 come Election day, try to turn on and see what's 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.680 going on. We want to stay engaged and at least 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.080 baseline informed. And so that's our job is to help 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:28.799 help Christians especially do that. Um, and yeah, like you said, 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.200 there's some days where it's like, there's nothing we can 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:31.679 do about this. 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:33.400 Yeah, it's just got to be what it is. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:34.640 And but we're trying to figure it out. 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:36.799 I promise you, we are. We are working on it. 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.000 As Aaron said, we hear you. Stay tuned. We'll try 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:42.120 and figure it out. And if we don't, we're just 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.560 gonna keep sending emails. Because you gotta know. You gotta 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:45.200 know it. Yeah. 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:47.919 We're really trying to be discerning about. This is one 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:48.480 you gotta know. 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:50.720 Yeah, well, one of the things that we wanted to 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.760 email folks about yesterday is you had not a first 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.280 time experience by any means, but the unique experience of 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.690 being at the Supreme Court yesterday and speaking at a 0:02:59.690 --> 0:03:01.850 rally around the Drummond case, which we talked a little 0:03:01.930 --> 0:03:04.090 bit about a few weeks ago when Troy was on 0:03:04.090 --> 0:03:08.010 the podcast. And, um, school choice was a big factor 0:03:08.010 --> 0:03:10.609 in that. And the way that a, I think it's 0:03:10.610 --> 0:03:13.010 in Oklahoma, where there were a Christian charter school that 0:03:13.010 --> 0:03:15.530 wasn't being given the same privileges as other charter schools 0:03:15.530 --> 0:03:17.450 in the state. So tell us a little bit about 0:03:17.450 --> 0:03:19.690 the experience and some of your remarks and just the 0:03:19.690 --> 0:03:21.770 overall feeling in D.C. around that case. 0:03:21.810 --> 0:03:26.170 Yeah. You know, this is this is one of these cases, um, 0:03:26.450 --> 0:03:31.810 that subtly could fundamentally transform education in a great way 0:03:32.130 --> 0:03:37.570 in America today. Um, and it has massive implications both 0:03:37.570 --> 0:03:41.690 for religious freedom and massive implications for school choice. And 0:03:41.690 --> 0:03:44.930 so let me just sort of level set, um, what 0:03:44.930 --> 0:03:49.570 it is, uh, real quickly here. Uh, so, uh, in Oklahoma, 0:03:49.570 --> 0:03:52.490 just like in Ohio, they have charter schools, right? Uh, 0:03:52.490 --> 0:03:55.290 charter schools are different than private schools because they are 0:03:55.290 --> 0:04:00.210 technically public schools, right? Um, but they are operated by 0:04:00.210 --> 0:04:04.170 a private entity, right. So they're they're regulated the same 0:04:04.170 --> 0:04:07.890 as a public school in terms of their their testing requirements, 0:04:07.890 --> 0:04:13.250 safety requirements. Um, you know, they have to accept all kids, um, 0:04:13.370 --> 0:04:17.050 all that kind of stuff, right? Uh, but instead of 0:04:17.050 --> 0:04:22.410 having a huge sort of, uh, bureaucracy over the top 0:04:22.410 --> 0:04:25.530 of it in terms of mandating all of the other 0:04:25.529 --> 0:04:28.730 stuff that goes along with it, um, a private entity 0:04:28.730 --> 0:04:31.210 can can run the school. Again, they still have to 0:04:31.210 --> 0:04:34.010 meet all of the public requirements. But really, what it 0:04:34.010 --> 0:04:36.089 allows for a lot where you see a lot of 0:04:36.089 --> 0:04:40.409 charter schools really make a name for themselves, are in creating, 0:04:40.450 --> 0:04:43.409 creating custom learning environments. So a virtual, you know, sort 0:04:43.410 --> 0:04:46.450 of an online school, that's where a lot of folks, um, 0:04:48.370 --> 0:04:51.250 interact with charter schools, or maybe it's a Stem school, 0:04:51.250 --> 0:04:54.170 or maybe it's an art school or those types of things. Right? 0:04:54.210 --> 0:05:01.130 They make Various emphasis. Well, um, in, uh, in Oklahoma, uh, 0:05:01.130 --> 0:05:03.250 for the first time ever, we had a school say, hey, 0:05:03.250 --> 0:05:06.650 we are going to start this this private entity that's 0:05:06.650 --> 0:05:08.490 going to run the school is going to be Saint 0:05:08.529 --> 0:05:15.730 Isidore Catholic School, right? Virtual charter school, rather. Um, and, uh, 0:05:15.730 --> 0:05:18.810 they were going to be a Catholic charter school. So 0:05:19.170 --> 0:05:22.090 the underlying operator was going to be Catholic. They were 0:05:22.089 --> 0:05:26.890 going to integrate Catholic, um, theology, Catholic ideas into it, 0:05:26.890 --> 0:05:29.650 but they were going to be a public school. So 0:05:29.690 --> 0:05:33.169 allow you still accept everyone. But just like a Stem 0:05:33.170 --> 0:05:36.849 school is going to emphasize science and technology and math 0:05:36.850 --> 0:05:39.130 and things like that, these guys were going to have 0:05:39.170 --> 0:05:44.890 an additional emphasis over, uh, Christianity, Catholicism, that kind of thing. Um, 0:05:45.330 --> 0:05:48.130 first of its kind, uh, you can, you know, I 0:05:48.170 --> 0:05:51.410 can understand folks say, whoa, this is there's some issues here, 0:05:51.410 --> 0:05:53.330 this separation of church and state, all that kind of 0:05:53.650 --> 0:05:57.850 You know, nonsense that folks say, um, but but it is. 0:05:57.850 --> 0:06:02.969 It's kind of a new concept. Um, so the Oklahoma 0:06:03.130 --> 0:06:07.810 Charter School Board voted to approve them. Um, and then 0:06:07.970 --> 0:06:12.250 the attorney general said, no, you can't approve them. This 0:06:12.250 --> 0:06:14.370 is a violation of the separation of church and state 0:06:14.570 --> 0:06:16.530 went all the way up to it's at the Supreme 0:06:16.529 --> 0:06:22.370 Court now. Um, so why do we believe that, uh, 0:06:22.890 --> 0:06:26.370 this Saint Isidore should be allowed to exist, and any 0:06:26.529 --> 0:06:32.290 religious entity wants to, um, uh, run a charter school 0:06:32.290 --> 0:06:35.690 should be able to do so. Um, it really comes. 0:06:35.730 --> 0:06:39.690 And this was my, my, my my first remarks, uh, yesterday, uh, 0:06:39.690 --> 0:06:42.690 at the rally, um, which again, is just still a 0:06:42.730 --> 0:06:46.530 really an amazing thing that we get to do as 0:06:46.529 --> 0:06:49.690 Americans is stand outside of the highest court, the most 0:06:49.690 --> 0:06:53.810 powerful court, um, and speak freely about these things and 0:06:54.290 --> 0:06:56.289 have open debate with people who disagree with us. That's 0:06:56.290 --> 0:06:59.210 just it's something that makes America special. But try not to. 0:06:59.250 --> 0:07:02.250 I'm trying not to get too distracted there. Um, the 0:07:02.290 --> 0:07:08.530 fundamental question is if this organizing entity, uh, was instead 0:07:08.529 --> 0:07:13.450 of being Saint Isidore Virtual Academy, they were the Excellence 0:07:13.810 --> 0:07:18.730 Virtual Academy or the Innovation Virtual Academy. Uh, would they 0:07:18.730 --> 0:07:22.770 have been denied? Right. If it wasn't for their faith, 0:07:22.970 --> 0:07:27.130 would they be able to access this program? Right. Uh, 0:07:27.130 --> 0:07:34.330 and the answer, the undisputed, uh, facts of the case are. No, 0:07:34.330 --> 0:07:37.810 they would not have been denied if they were anything else. Right. 0:07:38.130 --> 0:07:41.290 So fundamentally, what the state of Oklahoma has done in 0:07:41.290 --> 0:07:45.530 this situation is they have said there are secular views 0:07:45.690 --> 0:07:50.170 which are preeminent, and they are the the views that 0:07:50.170 --> 0:07:54.850 get special protections and special access. And there are religious 0:07:54.850 --> 0:08:00.290 views that are secondary and they get denied certain access. 0:08:00.290 --> 0:08:04.330 That is a religious test that is fundamentally in violation 0:08:04.330 --> 0:08:08.650 of the First Amendment. You cannot show preference in that way. 0:08:08.650 --> 0:08:10.570 This is this is one of the biggest things that 0:08:10.570 --> 0:08:14.010 I see even Christians get wrong today is that there's 0:08:14.250 --> 0:08:17.530 there's this sort of super secular worldview that gets the 0:08:17.530 --> 0:08:22.290 protection that that is the standard view of America and 0:08:22.290 --> 0:08:24.890 the standard view of the Constitution. And then there's all 0:08:24.890 --> 0:08:29.090 these other religious views. That's fundamentally not the case. I mean, 0:08:29.290 --> 0:08:34.370 that's again, I know this is a little bit trite, 0:08:34.370 --> 0:08:38.650 but that cannot be what the First Amendment meant when 0:08:38.650 --> 0:08:41.570 you have that we when when the writers of the 0:08:41.570 --> 0:08:45.089 Constitution talked about, we have certain rights endowed by our creator. Right. 0:08:45.130 --> 0:08:48.730 When you when you saw prayers starting the constitutional conventions 0:08:48.730 --> 0:08:51.860 and things like that, like very clearly. They could not 0:08:51.860 --> 0:08:54.620 have meant that. Thought that that's what the First Amendment meant, 0:08:54.660 --> 0:08:57.380 is that their secular views and that's the preeminent view. 0:08:57.780 --> 0:09:00.460 And then everything religious has to say that that can't 0:09:00.460 --> 0:09:02.740 function that way. Um, so that's why this is a 0:09:02.740 --> 0:09:06.500 very important First Amendment case, but it's also a very important, um, 0:09:06.500 --> 0:09:10.020 school choice case because, you know, the number one folks 0:09:10.020 --> 0:09:13.380 that are bringing innovation into the education space are Christians. 0:09:13.380 --> 0:09:16.339 I think CSV and our Ohio Christian Education Network and 0:09:16.340 --> 0:09:19.579 United States Christian Education Network are a big example of that. 0:09:19.980 --> 0:09:24.380 And if we can open this door to allowing Christians 0:09:24.380 --> 0:09:27.300 to get into the charter school space as well, that 0:09:27.300 --> 0:09:31.140 would be phenomenal. Now, again, that's a very different conversation 0:09:31.140 --> 0:09:34.500 than private schools and the voucher programs and Essa programs 0:09:34.500 --> 0:09:36.980 that are all over the country, because private schools are 0:09:37.020 --> 0:09:39.820 able to say, hey, you can only come here if 0:09:39.860 --> 0:09:42.860 you ascribe to our faith. If you're a religious charter school, 0:09:42.860 --> 0:09:46.059 you've got to accept everybody, right? But they are choosing 0:09:46.059 --> 0:09:48.220 to come to you and choosing to get that type 0:09:48.220 --> 0:09:50.660 of education. So you'd be choosing to come to get 0:09:50.660 --> 0:09:54.820 a Christian education here. Um, now, before somebody else says, 0:09:54.820 --> 0:09:56.660 oh my gosh, but what if somebody goes and starts 0:09:56.660 --> 0:10:00.100 an LGBT charter school? Well, you know, maybe that could happen, 0:10:00.100 --> 0:10:01.900 but I would say it's most likely not going to 0:10:01.900 --> 0:10:05.100 happen because we already have those. Those are called public schools. 0:10:05.140 --> 0:10:09.980 Boom. Roasted roasted. There's is well a couple of thoughts 0:10:09.980 --> 0:10:13.380 come to mind. Number one, um, Christians were largely behind 0:10:13.380 --> 0:10:16.900 the early public school movement in America. So yeah, y'all 0:10:16.900 --> 0:10:18.940 messed that up. We're trying to make the. 0:10:18.940 --> 0:10:19.220 Case. 0:10:19.220 --> 0:10:22.220 Here. And it seems also that the Supreme Court has 0:10:22.220 --> 0:10:24.939 ruled on not exactly the same thing. They wouldn't pick 0:10:24.940 --> 0:10:26.939 up a case if it was in line with something 0:10:26.940 --> 0:10:29.100 that they've already ruled on. But we've seen what was it, 0:10:29.100 --> 0:10:30.420 the Trinity case, the Trinity. 0:10:30.460 --> 0:10:31.060 Lutheran case. 0:10:31.100 --> 0:10:35.740 Where you're treating a, uh, religiously based organization differently than 0:10:35.740 --> 0:10:37.860 you would treat a secular case. And so there's there's 0:10:37.860 --> 0:10:40.860 some overlap in ways that they've ruled before with this case. 0:10:40.900 --> 0:10:43.500 Know that Trinity Lutheran is a great example for for 0:10:43.500 --> 0:10:46.420 those who remember that case, it was this was a 0:10:46.420 --> 0:10:50.220 a Christian preschool that the state of Missouri had a 0:10:50.220 --> 0:10:58.780 program where you could apply for rubberized tires for your playground. Right. Um, for, for, uh, 0:10:58.780 --> 0:11:02.340 and Trinity Lutheran submitted an application. They were a top, 0:11:02.380 --> 0:11:04.420 you know, it was like the top 15 applicants were 0:11:04.420 --> 0:11:06.060 going to get it. They were a top five applicant 0:11:06.059 --> 0:11:10.420 in terms of meeting the the generally applied requirements, in 0:11:10.420 --> 0:11:13.060 terms of does your space meet the facilities? Is it 0:11:13.059 --> 0:11:15.260 a large enough space? Is it too large of a space. 0:11:15.460 --> 0:11:17.780 Did you you know honestly do you have your stuff together? 0:11:17.820 --> 0:11:19.940 You know, all the things of like, are you actually 0:11:19.940 --> 0:11:22.860 going to use this for for playground? And they were rated, 0:11:22.860 --> 0:11:25.660 I think, a top five applicant. And then the state 0:11:25.660 --> 0:11:30.900 of Missouri said, nope, because you're Christian, because you're religious. Uh, 0:11:30.900 --> 0:11:34.700 you can't get it right. And that is, um, you know, 0:11:34.740 --> 0:11:39.179 one of my favorite, uh, odious to the Constitution that 0:11:39.179 --> 0:11:42.780 that is not not as not allowed under the First Amendment. Um, 0:11:42.780 --> 0:11:45.460 and so, uh, yeah, you know, we should get a 0:11:45.460 --> 0:11:49.660 decision in this case by the end of June. Um, and, uh, 0:11:49.660 --> 0:11:51.460 and again, it's a, it's a big, big deal. 0:11:53.059 --> 0:11:56.140 Well, the one bit of news that I think caught 0:11:56.140 --> 0:11:58.540 us off guard most of all because we were, you know, 0:11:58.580 --> 0:12:01.179 off site, right. Barely had cell phone service and got 0:12:01.179 --> 0:12:03.820 a note that there was a ruling on HB 68. 0:12:03.860 --> 0:12:06.140 The Safe act, which we had mentioned a few weeks ago, 0:12:06.179 --> 0:12:09.620 had been stayed due to a lower court ruling and 0:12:09.620 --> 0:12:13.140 a challenge brought by the ACLU. And we got our 0:12:13.260 --> 0:12:15.819 our ABC lesson this morning. That's this is my branding 0:12:15.820 --> 0:12:18.179 for you, Aaron. That's the Aaron Burr civics lesson for 0:12:18.179 --> 0:12:20.260 the team as you kind of walked us through what 0:12:20.260 --> 0:12:23.940 was going on with this, uh, the broad scope is 0:12:23.940 --> 0:12:29.540 that great news. But still 4 to 3 was confusing. Yeah. 0:12:29.540 --> 0:12:32.300 Yeah, confusing. That's a good word for it. Um, so 0:12:32.740 --> 0:12:37.540 the baseline on this, um, House Bill 68, the Safe act, um, 0:12:38.380 --> 0:12:40.620 we passed it, you know, went into effect after we 0:12:40.620 --> 0:12:45.580 overrode the governor's veto. And it was around January of 2024. Um, 0:12:46.020 --> 0:12:49.380 the ACLU brought a lawsuit against it in state court, 0:12:49.420 --> 0:12:51.980 not federal court, but in state court. They brought it 0:12:51.980 --> 0:12:56.380 in Franklin County court. Uh, shocker of shockers, actually. We 0:12:56.540 --> 0:13:00.340 our side won, right? Uh, and that in that case, uh, 0:13:00.340 --> 0:13:04.420 then the ACLU appealed to the 10th District Court of Appeals, uh, 0:13:04.420 --> 0:13:08.900 and our side lost in that, right. Um, and by 0:13:08.940 --> 0:13:11.380 our side, I mean, uh, you know, Dave Yost is 0:13:11.380 --> 0:13:14.820 the one arguing on behalf of the arguing on behalf 0:13:14.820 --> 0:13:17.740 of the state. Um, and Eliot Geiser, our solicitor general, 0:13:17.780 --> 0:13:20.980 they've been doing a phenomenal job. The technically, what the 0:13:20.980 --> 0:13:25.420 10th district did was they only blocked the ban on 0:13:25.420 --> 0:13:28.940 puberty blockers and hormone therapy from going into effect. Um, 0:13:29.820 --> 0:13:33.380 and so, uh, Dave Yost appealed immediately up to the 0:13:33.380 --> 0:13:38.220 Supreme Court to say, uh, hey, uh, you need to stay. 0:13:38.260 --> 0:13:44.260 You need to overturn this block, um, while the trial 0:13:44.300 --> 0:13:47.110 goes on. Right. So this is just a question of, hey, 0:13:47.110 --> 0:13:48.830 is this is the law going to be allowed to 0:13:48.870 --> 0:13:52.110 be in effect while a full trial on the merits proceeds? Um, 0:13:53.350 --> 0:14:00.910 and uh, and thankfully, uh, the Ohio Supreme Court said, uh, 0:14:00.910 --> 0:14:05.230 yet we're going to overturn uh, the or stay the, 0:14:05.230 --> 0:14:08.750 the 10th district court's decision. So the full Safe act 0:14:08.750 --> 0:14:12.470 is back in effect while the full trial goes on. Um, 0:14:12.470 --> 0:14:14.710 this could take 18 months to two years, right? So 0:14:14.710 --> 0:14:16.630 that's that's good for at least the next 18 months 0:14:16.630 --> 0:14:18.910 to two years, these procedures will be blocked. We still 0:14:18.910 --> 0:14:23.190 feel confident we're going to win. Um, really want to 0:14:23.190 --> 0:14:27.590 say how grateful we are that, uh, justice Pat DeWine, 0:14:27.790 --> 0:14:33.110 Justice Joe Deters, Justice Megan Shanahan and Justice Dan Hawkins, uh, 0:14:33.110 --> 0:14:36.910 voted to overturn the 10th District Court and allow this 0:14:37.950 --> 0:14:41.350 law to go into effect. Um, but to your point, Mike, 0:14:41.350 --> 0:14:45.270 we were quite frankly shocked that it was 4 to 3, 0:14:45.750 --> 0:14:47.270 because I think most folks would look at the Ohio 0:14:47.270 --> 0:14:51.350 Supreme Court and say, there's A61 conservative majority on the 0:14:51.430 --> 0:14:55.590 on the Supreme Court. Um, and what you had was 0:14:55.590 --> 0:15:00.390 Chief Justice Sharon Kennedy, um, justice Pat Fisher, um, and 0:15:00.390 --> 0:15:04.150 then Democrat Justice Jennifer Brunner, who we figured would vote 0:15:04.150 --> 0:15:10.070 against this, um, vote to allow the stay, um, to 0:15:10.110 --> 0:15:14.470 allow the law to be blocked, uh, ongoing. Um, and 0:15:14.470 --> 0:15:19.070 that's really surprising, uh, that those justices would do that now, um, 0:15:20.110 --> 0:15:22.510 what also frustrated me about this, and this is just 0:15:22.510 --> 0:15:26.110 generally one of my frustrations with the Ohio Supreme Court. Um, 0:15:26.550 --> 0:15:29.230 you know, a lot of times, you know, we're used 0:15:29.230 --> 0:15:32.150 to seeing opinions and dissents and things like that. And 0:15:32.190 --> 0:15:34.470 but that's when a case is finally decided. Right? That's 0:15:34.470 --> 0:15:37.950 the last thing you get. The judges explain their decisions. Well, 0:15:37.950 --> 0:15:40.150 in this case, we didn't get an explanation. We just 0:15:40.150 --> 0:15:43.310 got a ruling that came out with four For the 0:15:43.350 --> 0:15:45.270 four justices that said, yep, we're going to block this. 0:15:45.270 --> 0:15:48.430 And the three justices that says the four justices, yes, 0:15:48.430 --> 0:15:49.950 we're going to allow this law to go into effect. 0:15:49.950 --> 0:15:52.470 And the three justices says, no, we think the law 0:15:52.470 --> 0:15:59.390 should remain, um, uh, blocked, uh, while the trial goes forward. Um, 0:16:00.470 --> 0:16:03.590 and so I put out a statement yesterday, um, obviously 0:16:03.990 --> 0:16:06.510 put out a statement just because these are justices that 0:16:06.510 --> 0:16:10.070 the Ohio people elected. Right. So to our earlier conversation, Mike, 0:16:10.110 --> 0:16:13.590 this is our obligation to let people know, hey, here's 0:16:13.590 --> 0:16:16.590 how the people you elected voted, right? Uh, we do 0:16:16.590 --> 0:16:17.830 this regularly at CCP. 0:16:17.990 --> 0:16:19.590 And the Supreme Court races were a big part of 0:16:19.590 --> 0:16:21.990 our voter guide last year. Huge part. Like, don't forget 0:16:21.990 --> 0:16:23.750 about this because it's really important. 0:16:23.790 --> 0:16:26.270 It matters a lot. Right. And these same justices soon 0:16:26.270 --> 0:16:28.550 are going to be deciding some abortion cases and school 0:16:28.550 --> 0:16:31.870 choice cases. Uh, and so people need to understand what 0:16:31.870 --> 0:16:34.430 they're doing so that when these folks are going to 0:16:34.430 --> 0:16:36.710 be out on the campaign trail again, you can talk 0:16:36.710 --> 0:16:39.150 to them about why did you do this? And it's 0:16:39.150 --> 0:16:40.790 really hard to know why they do this when they 0:16:40.790 --> 0:16:43.470 don't tell you their names. Just show up on one 0:16:43.470 --> 0:16:46.830 side of the vote or another. Um, and so I 0:16:46.870 --> 0:16:49.270 frankly was very frustrated. That was my, my my post 0:16:49.270 --> 0:16:53.830 on on X yesterday. Um, that, uh, you know, hey, 0:16:53.830 --> 0:16:56.270 this is great. The law is back in effect, super 0:16:56.270 --> 0:17:00.270 grateful for justice DeWine, Justice Deters, Justice Shanahan and Justice 0:17:00.310 --> 0:17:03.590 Justice Hawkins. Um, but for the life of me, I 0:17:03.590 --> 0:17:10.869 can't understand. Especially why Chief Justice Kennedy and Justice, um, uh, uh, 0:17:11.470 --> 0:17:14.510 Justice Fisher would vote in a way that would allow 0:17:14.510 --> 0:17:16.630 kids to continue to be sterilized. And I think that's 0:17:16.630 --> 0:17:19.350 a legitimate question they should be asked when they're out 0:17:19.350 --> 0:17:22.750 across the state. Um, justices aren't above the voters, right? 0:17:22.790 --> 0:17:26.709 The voters are still, uh, the the sort of the 0:17:26.710 --> 0:17:31.830 supreme authorities, uh, in our, our state. Um, my understanding 0:17:31.830 --> 0:17:35.070 is Justice Kennedy at least has has some explanation for it. 0:17:35.070 --> 0:17:37.670 I don't think it's a very good one. Um, I'll 0:17:37.670 --> 0:17:39.710 let her, you know, if she decides she wants to 0:17:39.750 --> 0:17:41.830 explain to voters why she did what she did. I 0:17:41.830 --> 0:17:46.350 think she should. Um, because we deserve to know that. Why? 0:17:46.630 --> 0:17:48.550 Why a justice would think it's okay for kids to 0:17:48.550 --> 0:17:51.229 be sterilized or act in, or at least rule in 0:17:51.230 --> 0:17:53.470 such a way that would allow that to go on. Um, 0:17:55.270 --> 0:17:58.350 and it's, you know, this is, um, there are a 0:17:58.350 --> 0:18:00.830 few things as, as important as, as this issue right 0:18:00.830 --> 0:18:04.669 now when you understand how rampant these procedures were all 0:18:04.670 --> 0:18:08.390 over the state and how important it is, uh, for, uh, 0:18:08.550 --> 0:18:10.630 for us to protect our children today. 0:18:11.590 --> 0:18:14.389 And the process that you outlined there is part of 0:18:14.430 --> 0:18:16.710 that is important for the next story that we want 0:18:16.750 --> 0:18:20.070 to talk about, which is the friend of the court brief, 0:18:20.070 --> 0:18:24.750 the amicus brief that CSV filed in the HB 68 case. 0:18:24.750 --> 0:18:27.270 So tell our listeners a little bit about that, Aaron. 0:18:27.310 --> 0:18:30.030 Yeah, this was a a big one and a pretty 0:18:30.030 --> 0:18:31.790 cool one too. Yeah. Um, you. 0:18:31.790 --> 0:18:36.190 Know, yeah, it was actually hard to capture what it 0:18:36.190 --> 0:18:39.310 actually meant in a, in a quick news release, but 0:18:39.430 --> 0:18:41.440 that's why I'm grateful we have a little longer format 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:42.640 here that we can talk about it. 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:47.920 For sure. So. So the 10th District Court was very 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.680 strategic in how they struck down or how they blocked 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.840 a part of the Safe act. Right? One, they didn't 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.080 touch surgeries. They didn't touch boys and girls sports. So 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:01.679 they were very politically minded that those things are not popular. Um, 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:03.880 and they tried to parse out the puberty blockers and 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:12.639 hormone therapies from especially the surgeries, which, again, is logically nonsensical, but, um, okay. Uh, 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:17.240 and what they did in particular, um, voters in Ohio 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:21.000 might remember in 2012, following the passage of Obamacare, there 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.800 was a what was called a health care freedom amendment 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.119 that was passed. Um, and it really was in response, 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.640 like I mentioned to Obamacare, to say, hey, people should 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.120 be free to get access to insurance that they want 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.160 and not be forced to get insurance they don't want. 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:40.639 Things like that. Um, and, It was backed by a 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:44.880 lot of very conservative groups. Um, former Reagan Attorney General 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.840 Ed Meese, um, was one of the main advocates for this, 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:52.000 not just in Ohio, but nationwide and other states to pass. Um, 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.080 and they actually the court relied upon the Health Care 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:02.879 Freedom Amendment. So this, this conservative backed amendment and used 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.480 what they would call, uh, they said, hey, we want 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.760 to be textualists. We want to be originalists, constitutionalists. Right. 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.280 All buzzwords. I'm sure everybody who hears those words, if 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:15.879 you're a conservative, you perk up. Yeah, that's right, that's us. 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.600 You know, they used all this language to try to, 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.800 you know, pressure the court, the Supreme Court, because they're 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:24.680 very much aware that there's A61 majority on the Supreme Court. 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:26.760 So they used all of these arguments to try to 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.399 box the Supreme Court saying, well, hey, you're you believe 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:33.200 in health care freedom, right? You believe in, um, uh, 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.119 in textualism and originalism, right? Then you have to rule 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.040 with us. This is what the voters voter said. Um, 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:42.919 you know, there's very clear problems with that. Uh, one 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:44.440 of which is if you're going to read the Health 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:47.080 Care Freedom Amendment to say that people should be allowed 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:50.880 to get any medical procedure, whatever they want at any time. Um, 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:55.760 I mean, we couldn't ban drugs at that point, right? Like, 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.960 if somebody says I need to take fentanyl to deal 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:04.159 with my mental health, um, like, well, who is the 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:07.040 government to say no to that? Right? It's really an 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:13.639 absurd argument. Um, but, uh, if you're also, uh, going 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:15.680 to say this is a, you know, what they were 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:17.320 really trying to do is, hey, this is what they 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:19.760 even went so far as to quote Ed Meese. They 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.360 cited Ed Meese in their brief to say, see, even 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:27.359 Ed Meese would say that, uh, this this is unconstitutional 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.880 or at least suggest that is what they were kind 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.840 of getting at. Um, so the good news is Ed 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:35.720 Meese is still around, right? He's still with us. Um, 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:39.240 and by the grace of God, we got in contact 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:43.680 with Mr. Meese. Um, and, uh, you know, he's retired 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:46.320 now and all these types of things. And we wrote 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:48.920 a brief and asked him, hey, could we submit this 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:51.720 on your behalf, saying, this is not what I meant? 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:54.879 Write this one. This is bad textualism and originalism. And 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:57.440 Ed Meese is kind of one of the founders fathers 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:01.399 of textualism and originalism, along with Antonin Scalia and others. Um, 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:04.680 but also, this is not what I meant in this 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:09.560 Politico article that you're quoting me from, from 2012. Um, which, 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:13.040 as an aside, one of my all time great. Uh, 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:15.160 I've got to get off this call was I was 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:17.959 talking to a friend, uh, and Ed Meese called me 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:19.400 on my cell, and I'd be like, hey, I'm sorry, 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:21.600 I have to call you back. Ed Meese is calling me. Uh, 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:22.639 that's that was pretty fun. 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:24.199 Um, not to name drop or. 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:24.920 Not to name drop. 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:26.479 Not kind of a big deal. 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:26.879 Kind of a. 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:27.000 Big. 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:31.600 Deal. Uh, but we submitted a brief, uh, on, uh, Mr. 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:35.000 Meese's behalf, basically debunking all of that, which was really 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:38.560 great Alice and her team worked on it with us. And, um, yeah, 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:41.680 just that I think is going to help really provide 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.880 clarity to the Supreme Court. And this is what this 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:47.480 is where groups like CCP really matter in these cases 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:50.760 because you have you have Dave Yost, who's bringing in 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.200 all the arguments, the arguments from the court to the court. 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:56.880 But what the left has done for years is they 0:22:56.880 --> 0:22:58.399 bring in all these, like you mentioned, friend of the 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:00.760 court briefs these outside groups to file briefs in these 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:02.879 cases to try to bully and pressure the court in. 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:06.520 And the right typically doesn't. We don't get involved in that. Right. 0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:09.320 And I said this to our board and to the team. 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:12.760 Like if we weren't here, this wouldn't happen because these 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:16.919 briefs also aren't cheap to write and file. Um, and so, 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:22.200 you know, thank you to everyone who supports CCP supports us. Uh, 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:25.439 by the grace of God, we're in position then to 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:29.080 to to fight these fights and, and see these fights 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:31.119 through the to the end. Right. It's not just enough 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:33.480 to vote to get the people elected or even just 0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:35.680 to get the law passed. Then you got to stay 0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:38.360 in the game to make sure it gets upheld and 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:41.640 gets enforced. That's why we have this building on Cap Square, 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:43.479 and that's why we do what we do here. 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:48.360 Yeah. And quick plug. Yeah. If you want to keep. 0:23:48.400 --> 0:23:51.360 Oh yeah I mean we spent over ten grand on 0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:54.680 briefs and other legal research in this case. Um, and again, that's, 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:59.399 that's all private donor support that the state has, their 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:01.320 taxpayer dollars they use. We got to do this all 0:24:01.320 --> 0:24:05.120 with with the $12 widow's mite checks we get and 0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:06.520 larger as well. Yeah. 0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:08.480 And if you want to donate to keep David Mehan 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:10.560 off the podcast, by all means just make a note 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:14.160 in your donation. We'll make sure that that happens. Yeah, 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:16.600 we'll send him on some remote corner of the state 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:17.480 with your donation. 0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:18.280 Back out to Nebraska. 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:18.600 Again. 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:19.480 Like we did before. 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:20.000 So yeah. 0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:22.880 Well, that's been a full docket of news. And the 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:26.280 crazy thing is, we haven't even touched on the biggest 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:28.920 story of the week. But we we did that intentionally. 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:30.760 We saved it for the interview portion so we could 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.290 have a full, close to 30 minutes to talk about 0:24:33.290 --> 0:24:37.490 this new bombshell abortion pill report with Jamie Hall from 0:24:37.490 --> 0:24:42.090 the Ethics and Public Policy Center. This was this was staggering. 0:24:42.170 --> 0:24:43.010 It's the biggest. 0:24:43.010 --> 0:24:47.210 Pro-life news since Dobbs. I mean, and it's just getting started. 0:24:47.250 --> 0:24:49.250 Yeah. And there's no other. We don't need to say 0:24:49.250 --> 0:24:51.770 anything else except that to tee up the interview. Jamie 0:24:51.810 --> 0:24:54.490 Hall from the Ethics and Public Policy Center. Coming up 0:24:54.490 --> 0:24:58.330 next on the narrative. Hey, narrative listeners, you know, Christians 0:24:58.330 --> 0:25:01.570 in the marketplace today face more unique and challenging threats 0:25:01.570 --> 0:25:06.050 than ever before. Businesses are following woke capitalism. Chambers of 0:25:06.050 --> 0:25:09.609 commerce are beholden to social justice, and secular activists are 0:25:09.650 --> 0:25:13.850 chipping away Christians First Amendment rights. As Ohio's only Christian 0:25:13.850 --> 0:25:17.129 Chamber of Commerce, the Christian Business Partnership stands in the 0:25:17.130 --> 0:25:21.170 gap to advocate for, to educate and to celebrate Christian 0:25:21.170 --> 0:25:25.409 business owners. Joining the partnership also allows businesses to provide 0:25:25.410 --> 0:25:30.530 their employees with healthcare, insurance, worker's compensation, and exclusive banking 0:25:30.530 --> 0:25:34.290 and educational Discounts. To find out more and to join, 0:25:34.530 --> 0:25:45.370 go to kbpi. That's kbpi.org. We are back on the narrative. 0:25:45.369 --> 0:25:48.409 Mike Andrews, Aaron Bear, and we're joined now by Jamie 0:25:48.450 --> 0:25:51.450 Hall from the Ethics and Public Policy Center, where he 0:25:51.450 --> 0:25:54.489 is the director of data analysis and a fellow in 0:25:54.490 --> 0:25:57.490 the Life and Family Initiative. He began his career in 0:25:57.490 --> 0:25:59.850 the George W Bush administration, where he served with the 0:25:59.850 --> 0:26:02.250 CIA and other agencies. He was born and raised in 0:26:02.250 --> 0:26:04.810 Kentucky and currently resides in Virginia with his wife and 0:26:04.810 --> 0:26:07.689 their four children. And we're excited to talk to you today, Jamie, 0:26:07.730 --> 0:26:11.330 about a new report that you've authored around the abortion 0:26:11.330 --> 0:26:14.890 pill and some of the misleading claims, to say the least, 0:26:14.890 --> 0:26:16.489 that are out there about it. So thanks for the 0:26:16.490 --> 0:26:18.450 time and helping us break this down today. 0:26:19.410 --> 0:26:21.570 Thank you for inviting me onto your show. I really 0:26:21.570 --> 0:26:25.890 appreciate the opportunity to share this information. It's just incredible 0:26:25.890 --> 0:26:27.530 what's happening to these women. 0:26:28.090 --> 0:26:30.010 Yeah. And and I think the place that we just 0:26:30.010 --> 0:26:33.369 need to start is some of the claims made around 0:26:33.369 --> 0:26:36.050 the abortion pill are that it's allegedly safe and effective, 0:26:36.050 --> 0:26:38.889 and we know that that is completely and totally not true, 0:26:38.890 --> 0:26:42.050 because when it is effective, it's not safe for the baby. 0:26:42.530 --> 0:26:45.250 But certainly they're making that claim from the standpoint of 0:26:45.250 --> 0:26:48.330 the mother. But your report that Ethics and Public Policy 0:26:48.330 --> 0:26:50.890 Center just put out shows that it's not even safe 0:26:50.890 --> 0:26:54.570 for the mother, because there are a lot of severe 0:26:54.609 --> 0:26:58.450 adverse health effects that are documented when women take this. 0:26:58.450 --> 0:27:00.170 So kind of walk us through some of that high 0:27:00.170 --> 0:27:02.090 level detail and what you found as you looked into 0:27:02.090 --> 0:27:02.730 this issue. 0:27:03.490 --> 0:27:08.170 Sure. So, um, we found that 1 in 10 women 0:27:08.330 --> 0:27:12.450 who take the abortion pill will experience a serious adverse event. Well, 0:27:12.450 --> 0:27:16.170 what does that mean? Um, it's something like infection, which 0:27:16.170 --> 0:27:19.850 could lead to sepsis, hemorrhaging, which could eventually require a 0:27:19.850 --> 0:27:23.890 blood transfusion. Uh, about half of the women who experience 0:27:23.890 --> 0:27:28.410 one of these serious adverse events will find themselves in 0:27:28.410 --> 0:27:31.490 the ER, or even hospitalized as a result of that. 0:27:31.490 --> 0:27:34.690 So we're not talking about just like. Nausea and vomiting, 0:27:34.690 --> 0:27:37.730 some cramps, things like that. We're talking about really serious 0:27:37.730 --> 0:27:40.490 medical events that require attention. 0:27:41.850 --> 0:27:46.609 So, Jamie, I think, um, the thing about this report 0:27:46.609 --> 0:27:48.609 right now that can't be missed, right? There's a lot of, 0:27:48.650 --> 0:27:51.770 you know, in the pro-life world, we literally have endless 0:27:51.810 --> 0:27:53.850 websites that are coming out with stories like, you know, 0:27:53.890 --> 0:27:55.810 I love m life news, life site news, all that 0:27:55.810 --> 0:27:59.050 kind of stuff. This report is different. Um, I like 0:27:59.050 --> 0:28:02.169 the way David B, right, said the other day, um, 0:28:02.530 --> 0:28:08.010 that this is the most significant, um, news and, uh, 0:28:08.010 --> 0:28:11.810 sort of, uh, victory, I'd say by exposing this for 0:28:11.810 --> 0:28:16.210 the pro-life movement since Dobbs. Right, that, uh, you know, 0:28:16.250 --> 0:28:18.770 for a lot of us, uh, as my wife who 0:28:18.770 --> 0:28:21.649 volunteers at a pregnancy center, David Mehan, our policy director, 0:28:21.690 --> 0:28:24.609 she runs a pregnancy center. Um, anybody who's worked in 0:28:24.609 --> 0:28:29.650 the pregnancy center space has seen, uh, for for years 0:28:29.650 --> 0:28:33.970 that women who take the abortion pill very often have 0:28:33.970 --> 0:28:37.250 serious adverse events, right? They end up in the hospital for, 0:28:37.290 --> 0:28:40.490 for various, uh, issues. Um, now we have the data 0:28:40.490 --> 0:28:42.530 to show it. Right now we have the, the real 0:28:42.530 --> 0:28:46.930 life evidence to show it. Um, and the data we 0:28:46.930 --> 0:28:49.650 have on this, I think, is what really sets this 0:28:49.890 --> 0:28:52.370 report apart. It's not just like you said, not just that. 0:28:52.410 --> 0:28:55.450 You know, the FDA label says, uh, you know, less 0:28:55.450 --> 0:28:57.610 than half a percent of women who take the pill 0:28:57.610 --> 0:29:01.120 have serious adverse events. Um, it's no, actually, it's 1 0:29:01.120 --> 0:29:04.490 in 10. Our data, the data that's in this report, 0:29:04.490 --> 0:29:08.410 your data is, uh, actually better than anything the FDA 0:29:08.450 --> 0:29:10.370 had when they came up with that claim. Can you 0:29:10.370 --> 0:29:13.530 just explain what where this data came from and why 0:29:14.170 --> 0:29:18.530 this data is actually a more reliable picture of, uh, 0:29:18.690 --> 0:29:21.050 of the actual adverse events from the abortion pill, the 0:29:21.050 --> 0:29:24.930 actual risk of the abortion pill compared to what the 0:29:24.930 --> 0:29:28.180 FDA came up with that number with before. 0:29:29.100 --> 0:29:33.740 Sure, we have data on all abortions that were paid 0:29:33.740 --> 0:29:39.820 for through insurance in the United States from 2017 to 2023. 0:29:39.860 --> 0:29:49.700 This is 865,727 abortions. By contrast, the FDA, when they're 0:29:49.700 --> 0:29:53.900 discussing the safety of mifepristone, the abortion pill, they're using 0:29:53.900 --> 0:29:57.700 data for less than 31,000 women. So we have 28 0:29:57.740 --> 0:30:01.060 times as much data as the FDA has on the 0:30:01.060 --> 0:30:05.220 safety of mifepristone. We're looking at real women who are 0:30:05.220 --> 0:30:08.860 taking the pill under the conditions, receiving the care that 0:30:09.340 --> 0:30:13.380 women receive when they when they take this pill here 0:30:13.380 --> 0:30:17.220 in the US today. Whereas the FDA was looking at 0:30:17.220 --> 0:30:21.300 clinical trials where the doctors were monitoring the women closely 0:30:21.300 --> 0:30:25.700 throughout and they were going to receive much higher quality care, 0:30:25.700 --> 0:30:30.260 Air quicker interventions if anything started to go wrong. Um, 0:30:30.580 --> 0:30:33.700 that's that's not what women get today when they actually 0:30:33.700 --> 0:30:36.180 take the pill in real life. So we have much, 0:30:36.180 --> 0:30:40.340 much more reliable data on what any woman who's actually 0:30:40.340 --> 0:30:44.540 considering taking the abortion pill today could expect along the way. 0:30:44.580 --> 0:30:50.300 And it's terrifying. The thought that 10.93% of women are 0:30:50.460 --> 0:30:54.940 experiencing one of these serious adverse events after taking the pill. Um, 0:30:55.060 --> 0:30:57.900 any other drug that had an adverse event rate like that, uh, 0:30:57.940 --> 0:31:02.060 would be pulled off the market, but not not mifepristone, 0:31:02.060 --> 0:31:06.100 because the left thinks women need abortion above all else. 0:31:06.900 --> 0:31:10.340 And just for context, so people understand, there's a few 0:31:10.340 --> 0:31:13.620 things I want to help clarify here. One, uh, this 0:31:13.620 --> 0:31:16.580 is the abortion pill different than what most folks would 0:31:16.580 --> 0:31:19.820 think of as contraceptive, uh, contraception, which is, uh, you know, 0:31:19.860 --> 0:31:24.260 the pill that women take sort of, uh, daily, um, to, 0:31:24.300 --> 0:31:28.459 to prevent pregnancy. Also different from what's called the morning 0:31:28.460 --> 0:31:33.260 after pill, which is women can take immediately following sex 0:31:33.260 --> 0:31:38.540 to try to stop pregnancy. Oftentimes actually oftentimes in both 0:31:38.540 --> 0:31:41.060 of those situations, abortions can be caused by those pills, 0:31:41.060 --> 0:31:46.180 but not always. Um, this is, uh, the the two 0:31:46.180 --> 0:31:48.980 drug regimen that Planned Parenthood uses. You know, according to 0:31:48.980 --> 0:31:53.340 the Ohio 2023 abortion report, uh, this pill was used 0:31:53.340 --> 0:31:58.900 in 44%. So over 9000 abortions in Ohio, um, uh, 0:31:59.100 --> 0:32:03.300 in 2023, that number has increased dramatically, um, over the 0:32:03.300 --> 0:32:06.060 last few years, even since over the last two years, 0:32:06.220 --> 0:32:09.980 since 2023. Um, and the way this pill works is 0:32:09.980 --> 0:32:14.220 it's a two pill regimen. You have mifepristone, um, which 0:32:14.660 --> 0:32:17.300 allegedly how it's supposed to work. Is it? It basically 0:32:17.300 --> 0:32:20.820 starves the child. So it blocks, uh, the child from 0:32:20.820 --> 0:32:25.060 getting progesterone, which is nutrition in the womb. Um, and then, uh, 0:32:25.060 --> 0:32:29.740 the second pill they take is called misoprostol, which induces labor. Um, 0:32:30.780 --> 0:32:35.420 and so this is specifically over mifepristone. Now, now, Jamie, 0:32:35.420 --> 0:32:37.700 I want to go back to the data you were 0:32:37.700 --> 0:32:40.500 talking about. Um, so this was you mentioned it was 0:32:40.500 --> 0:32:43.820 about 860,000 women. Uh, that was in the study. This 0:32:43.820 --> 0:32:50.380 database covered 330 million Americans, um, over this seven year span. Um, 0:32:50.740 --> 0:32:54.980 I'm sure for a lot of our good conservative listeners here, uh, 0:32:54.980 --> 0:32:57.020 that's pretty creepy that this data is out there. What 0:32:57.020 --> 0:33:00.060 is this data? Is this was this like, uh, data 0:33:00.060 --> 0:33:02.660 that was leaked somewhere? Was it? Where did this data 0:33:02.660 --> 0:33:05.060 come from? And how is this data typically used? 0:33:05.820 --> 0:33:08.940 This is this is called de-identified data. 0:33:08.940 --> 0:33:14.540 So we don't know exactly who any of these people were. Uh, 0:33:14.540 --> 0:33:18.420 we just have an identifier so that we can track 0:33:18.580 --> 0:33:22.380 the same person over time as in this case, the 0:33:22.380 --> 0:33:27.860 woman um, receives care, um, after the abortion, for whatever 0:33:27.860 --> 0:33:32.180 complications she might she might experience. Uh, but in general, 0:33:32.220 --> 0:33:37.060 this data is used for all sorts of health, uh, research, 0:33:37.220 --> 0:33:40.900 both from academics as well as, uh, from industry. Um, 0:33:40.900 --> 0:33:45.180 insurance companies will use this to help them decide what 0:33:45.180 --> 0:33:49.020 they should be covering, what their pricing should be. Um, 0:33:49.060 --> 0:33:54.500 it's this is a multi-billion dollar industry trading on people's 0:33:54.500 --> 0:33:57.380 healthcare data, but it has to be done in a 0:33:57.380 --> 0:34:02.140 way that's compliant with HIPAA. So there are 18 specific 0:34:02.180 --> 0:34:07.620 items that are considered, uh, restricted under HIPAA. That information 0:34:07.620 --> 0:34:10.819 has to be removed from the data before it's shared. 0:34:10.980 --> 0:34:15.379 But after that shared, um, we're we're able to we're 0:34:15.380 --> 0:34:20.580 able to look at every diagnosis, every procedure, any treatment 0:34:20.580 --> 0:34:24.790 that anyone's receiving any health care provider covered by their 0:34:24.790 --> 0:34:27.870 insurance in the United States. It's just that in this case, 0:34:27.870 --> 0:34:34.110 we're focused on abortion and the care that women receive 0:34:34.110 --> 0:34:36.870 in the 45 days after the abortion. 0:34:38.270 --> 0:34:39.830 So this might be getting into the weeds a little 0:34:39.870 --> 0:34:41.509 bit too much. But but is that just based on 0:34:41.550 --> 0:34:44.110 like medical coding and things like that that are available 0:34:44.110 --> 0:34:46.670 in medical records. And you can kind of cross identify 0:34:46.670 --> 0:34:49.510 what's an abortion and what are these adverse reactions. 0:34:49.550 --> 0:34:50.070 Yes. 0:34:50.070 --> 0:34:54.070 So we're able to identify the abortions within the data 0:34:54.110 --> 0:34:59.350 set because they have the appropriate medical codes for an abortion. 0:34:59.350 --> 0:35:03.069 Usually there's one particular code that's used most of the 0:35:03.070 --> 0:35:07.390 time that covers the entire visit associated with the abortion 0:35:07.390 --> 0:35:10.710 at the at the doctor's office. Um, but then in 0:35:10.710 --> 0:35:13.910 other cases, um, actually, some of the insurance companies don't 0:35:13.910 --> 0:35:17.070 really want it to be so easy for people to 0:35:17.550 --> 0:35:21.590 identify that they're paying for abortion. So they on, um, 0:35:21.830 --> 0:35:25.310 on the website of the manufacturer of the abortion pill, 0:35:25.469 --> 0:35:28.790 Danco Laboratories. Uh, if you look hard enough, you can 0:35:28.790 --> 0:35:33.950 find a document that says, hey, providers, if you want 0:35:33.989 --> 0:35:36.509 to get this covered by insurance, here's how you need 0:35:36.510 --> 0:35:40.670 to fill it out and report it for our purposes. Um, 0:35:41.270 --> 0:35:44.390 we we took that information for what codes they were 0:35:44.390 --> 0:35:48.070 using in these specific situations, for these specific insurers in 0:35:48.070 --> 0:35:51.750 certain states and said, okay, we're going to include those 0:35:51.750 --> 0:35:54.750 as well. So they were they were in some sense 0:35:54.750 --> 0:35:57.150 trying to hide it. Uh, but we were able to 0:35:57.190 --> 0:35:58.390 find those too. 0:35:59.750 --> 0:36:02.150 I mean, I just want to ask because you you were, 0:36:02.630 --> 0:36:06.510 you know, uh, you were the lead researcher on this. Um, 0:36:07.430 --> 0:36:10.669 what was that moment like, just personally, when you're going 0:36:10.670 --> 0:36:13.510 through this and you see and you're, I mean, sorting 0:36:13.510 --> 0:36:17.390 through 330 million, you know, patient data points and all 0:36:17.390 --> 0:36:22.590 of that. Um, when you came across the 11% number. Um, 0:36:22.630 --> 0:36:24.630 what was that moment like for just for you personally 0:36:24.630 --> 0:36:26.109 looking at all of this? And have you ever seen 0:36:26.110 --> 0:36:27.790 anything like that in all your data analysis? 0:36:28.390 --> 0:36:32.390 Oh, man. I've, I've, I've looked at so many different 0:36:32.390 --> 0:36:34.750 large data sets over the course of my career. I mean, 0:36:34.750 --> 0:36:37.230 you mentioned I worked at CIA, right? I can't really 0:36:37.230 --> 0:36:38.950 talk a whole lot about that, but. 0:36:38.989 --> 0:36:39.590 But why not? 0:36:40.469 --> 0:36:42.069 We want to have you back just to talk about 0:36:42.070 --> 0:36:44.790 all that. Like, what's the code, man? Anyway. 0:36:45.150 --> 0:36:48.270 But, yeah, we had access to data to, uh. This 0:36:48.270 --> 0:36:52.430 is one of the most astonishing things that I've ever seen. Uh, 0:36:52.430 --> 0:36:55.870 to to go into looking at a data set where the, 0:36:55.910 --> 0:36:57.790 where the FDA saying that you're going to have less 0:36:57.790 --> 0:37:02.110 than half a percent serious adverse events and then to 0:37:02.150 --> 0:37:07.510 actually start looking, you know, code by code, category by category, 0:37:07.510 --> 0:37:11.630 and seeing what's really happening to these women. Uh, it's 0:37:11.670 --> 0:37:17.990 it's terrifying. It's tragic. It's hard to believe that It 0:37:18.590 --> 0:37:24.029 that anybody approved this, but but they did. Uh, and 0:37:24.030 --> 0:37:27.189 it didn't get there like right away. Right. When, when 0:37:27.190 --> 0:37:32.630 this drug was first approved in 2000 under the Clinton administration, 0:37:32.630 --> 0:37:36.590 there were much, much stronger safeguards, in effect, uh, to 0:37:36.630 --> 0:37:40.029 try to protect women from these sorts of adverse events. Right. 0:37:40.070 --> 0:37:41.830 They had to they had to have at least three 0:37:41.830 --> 0:37:45.310 doctor visits. They had to receive the pill in person 0:37:45.469 --> 0:37:47.910 from the doctor, take it there in the office, make 0:37:47.950 --> 0:37:51.350 sure there weren't any immediate complications. Then when they took 0:37:51.350 --> 0:37:53.670 the second pill, you know, 2 or 3 days later, 0:37:53.710 --> 0:37:57.030 there were at the doctor again to make sure everything 0:37:57.030 --> 0:37:59.549 was okay. Then two weeks later, they're checking again to 0:37:59.590 --> 0:38:03.989 make sure that there aren't any, uh, fetal parts remaining 0:38:03.989 --> 0:38:06.830 inside the woman's body, that there aren't any other issues. Right? 0:38:06.870 --> 0:38:12.430 They were. They they. Well, Clinton wanted abortion to be safe, 0:38:12.430 --> 0:38:16.670 legal and rare. And, uh, we can definitely disagree on 0:38:16.670 --> 0:38:20.910 whether it should be illegal or not. Um, but, um, 0:38:20.950 --> 0:38:25.390 as far as safety, that administration, they, they seem to 0:38:25.390 --> 0:38:29.390 be making a legitimate effort to keep the woman safe 0:38:29.390 --> 0:38:32.790 with the, um, with the protocols that they had in 0:38:32.790 --> 0:38:37.630 place in 2000. But then since then, under the Obama 0:38:37.630 --> 0:38:41.550 administration and then under the Biden administration, all these safety 0:38:41.550 --> 0:38:45.430 protocols have been just chipped away at to the point 0:38:45.430 --> 0:38:50.189 where now it's possible for a woman to go online, 0:38:50.230 --> 0:38:54.590 fill out a form basically claiming that she's healthy. Um, 0:38:54.630 --> 0:38:58.470 get the pill in the mail, take the drug at home. Um, 0:38:58.870 --> 0:39:04.430 hopefully everything turns out okay because, um, if if not. 0:39:04.510 --> 0:39:07.310 And who's taking care of her? Who's she going to call? Well, 0:39:07.310 --> 0:39:09.270 she's going to end up at the emergency room in 0:39:09.270 --> 0:39:13.270 the hospital. Uh, because 10% of the time, things aren't 0:39:13.310 --> 0:39:16.629 turning out okay. Right? This this is just terrible for 0:39:16.630 --> 0:39:20.270 these women. Um, but we didn't get there right away 0:39:20.270 --> 0:39:22.469 in 2000 when this was approved. This has been a 0:39:22.510 --> 0:39:26.750 long process, gradually chipping away at the safety protocols to 0:39:26.790 --> 0:39:29.230 where we end up in this terrible situation that we 0:39:29.230 --> 0:39:30.070 have here today. 0:39:30.510 --> 0:39:33.029 And my understanding, you know, we. 0:39:33.150 --> 0:39:33.550 We've. 0:39:34.310 --> 0:39:38.110 Watched I've watched the sort of chipping away at these 0:39:38.110 --> 0:39:42.310 protocols over the years by the Obama and Biden administration. 0:39:42.630 --> 0:39:44.310 And I think one of the aspects of it, too, 0:39:44.350 --> 0:39:51.070 was that that actual process wasn't done by the normal. Again, 0:39:51.310 --> 0:39:55.150 we've seen this with with all things abortion for decades 0:39:55.150 --> 0:39:58.110 now is that there's there's sort of standard, sort of 0:39:58.150 --> 0:40:01.230 legal precedent and things, the way things work, their standard 0:40:01.230 --> 0:40:04.830 medical precedents for the way things work. Um, and then 0:40:04.830 --> 0:40:08.310 there's abortion. And, you know, it tends to get its 0:40:08.310 --> 0:40:11.950 own rules and processes. You know, honestly, the only other 0:40:11.950 --> 0:40:14.830 example that comes close to it is the transgender stuff. 0:40:15.200 --> 0:40:18.880 and by the grace of God, that's getting rectified fairly 0:40:18.880 --> 0:40:21.719 relatively quickly, even though there's still been a lot of 0:40:21.719 --> 0:40:25.719 devastation that's come from that. Um, can you just talk 0:40:25.719 --> 0:40:27.680 a little bit, speak into a little bit of, of, 0:40:27.840 --> 0:40:32.000 you know, typically what it takes for the FDA to change, uh, 0:40:32.000 --> 0:40:35.920 a REM to change a regulation, change a process and 0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:39.239 how Obama and Biden just sort of, you know, waved 0:40:39.239 --> 0:40:44.080 their hands. I believe Biden even used some Covid powers to, uh, to, 0:40:44.120 --> 0:40:48.480 you know, allow this drug to be proliferated even more. But, uh, 0:40:48.480 --> 0:40:49.440 what was that like? 0:40:50.239 --> 0:40:54.440 Sure. Um, so you mentioned Covid, right? That that was 0:40:54.440 --> 0:40:58.480 what allowed them to remove the requirement for any in-person 0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:03.279 doctor visit, uh, because during Covid, uh, folks weren't going 0:41:03.320 --> 0:41:06.399 to the doctor for much of anything. And they got 0:41:06.400 --> 0:41:11.560 a court initially to say that that abortion was was 0:41:11.560 --> 0:41:15.920 so important and access to abortion was so important that 0:41:15.920 --> 0:41:19.480 they couldn't even require the one doctor visit that Obama 0:41:19.480 --> 0:41:23.239 had required in order to receive the pill. So they 0:41:23.239 --> 0:41:25.920 got that thrown out in court initially, even when the 0:41:25.920 --> 0:41:33.799 Covid emergency ended. Um, and it was restored very, very briefly. Uh, 0:41:33.800 --> 0:41:37.120 that that there would be the in-person requirement the, the 0:41:37.160 --> 0:41:41.760 Biden administration quickly, uh, moved to move to change that 0:41:41.760 --> 0:41:46.840 and to get it in place, um, since 2023, officially, uh, 0:41:46.840 --> 0:41:50.600 there has been no requirement for any in-person doctor visit 0:41:50.600 --> 0:41:52.920 in order to receive the abortion pill. 0:41:55.480 --> 0:42:00.480 I'm curious, Jamie, the methodology methodology here seems really solid 0:42:00.480 --> 0:42:03.680 when you're you're looking at medical code specifically, it's easy 0:42:03.719 --> 0:42:07.880 to to see cause and effect or, or where there's, um, 0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:12.560 that initial abortion in the follow up visit. So what 0:42:12.760 --> 0:42:15.480 What's the reaction been like from opponents? Like where are 0:42:15.480 --> 0:42:17.879 they trying to pick holes in this report that you've 0:42:17.880 --> 0:42:19.080 seen here in the early going? 0:42:19.680 --> 0:42:21.600 Well, some of them just didn't bother to read it. 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:22.040 So they're. 0:42:22.400 --> 0:42:22.920 Of course. 0:42:23.480 --> 0:42:25.480 Reading is hard. We give him a break. 0:42:26.880 --> 0:42:30.280 So so they're they're claiming things like we counted somehow 0:42:30.280 --> 0:42:32.799 we counted every time that a woman showed up at 0:42:32.800 --> 0:42:34.760 the ER, even if she got hit by a bus 0:42:34.760 --> 0:42:37.040 or something like that. I mean, like, no, no, we 0:42:37.040 --> 0:42:39.760 say right there in the report that we're only counting er, 0:42:39.800 --> 0:42:43.280 visits that were related to the abortion. We're looking for 0:42:43.440 --> 0:42:47.880 medical diagnosis and procedure codes in the insurance data showing 0:42:47.880 --> 0:42:51.600 that she's actually there for complications related to the abortion. 0:42:51.600 --> 0:42:54.320 But but, you know, if you don't bother to read, 0:42:54.360 --> 0:42:56.440 it's it's really easy to just say, oh, well, of 0:42:56.440 --> 0:42:59.560 course they're over counting. Well no, no we're not. Um, 0:42:59.880 --> 0:43:02.680 there's uh, there's a bit of a, an issue here 0:43:02.680 --> 0:43:07.080 where the FDA definition of serious adverse event that's on 0:43:07.080 --> 0:43:11.120 their website, uh, which is what they should be following, 0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:15.160 is broader than the definition of serious adverse event that 0:43:15.160 --> 0:43:18.000 they used on the drug label, where they only looked 0:43:18.000 --> 0:43:22.280 at six specific categories of adverse events rather than everything. 0:43:22.480 --> 0:43:28.120 So that allowed, um, underreporting of serious adverse events on 0:43:28.120 --> 0:43:31.680 the drug label itself. So then when we say, oh, well, 0:43:31.719 --> 0:43:36.600 actually it's higher because you left out all these other things. Um, 0:43:36.800 --> 0:43:39.120 some people are saying, well, you're not making an apples 0:43:39.120 --> 0:43:42.279 to apples comparison. Well, well, yeah, we're not making an 0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:45.839 apples to apples comparison because the FDA didn't do what 0:43:45.840 --> 0:43:48.799 they should have done, or didn't require the manufacturer to 0:43:48.800 --> 0:43:51.160 do what they should have done in the first place 0:43:51.160 --> 0:43:54.560 in terms of counting all of these different types of 0:43:54.560 --> 0:43:55.600 adverse events. 0:43:57.680 --> 0:44:02.640 Again, they just play by different rules. Uh, with this when, 0:44:03.000 --> 0:44:09.280 when it comes. So, you know, I think earlier this week, uh, 0:44:09.440 --> 0:44:12.840 center for Christian virtue. We we joined the chorus of 0:44:13.400 --> 0:44:17.760 other organizations calling for mifepristone to just be completely pulled 0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:21.200 from shelves right now because, uh, there's one other side 0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:23.920 of this, Jamie, that I think is important. You know, 0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:27.040 this is the largest data set that's ever been used. 0:44:27.280 --> 0:44:31.160 But my understanding is the vast majority of abortions, uh, 0:44:31.360 --> 0:44:36.280 that use mifepristone aren't actually done through insurance. So, uh, 0:44:36.280 --> 0:44:41.399 the these numbers, there's probably far greater numbers, uh, than 0:44:41.400 --> 0:44:43.160 what we even have here. Is that right? 0:44:43.719 --> 0:44:48.040 That's right. Uh, our data set includes roughly a quarter 0:44:48.400 --> 0:44:51.839 of all of the mifepristone abortions in the US over 0:44:51.840 --> 0:44:54.759 this period. So any of the numbers that we say 0:44:54.760 --> 0:44:57.560 for numbers, for the number of women who are affected 0:44:57.560 --> 0:45:01.000 by this ought to be, uh, probably in reality, about 0:45:01.000 --> 0:45:05.200 four times the numbers that we're showing. Uh, so, so, 0:45:05.200 --> 0:45:09.160 for example, when we say that there were just over 0:45:09.290 --> 0:45:14.810 3000 cases where a woman took the pill. The abortion pill. 0:45:14.930 --> 0:45:18.890 And then was later diagnosed with an ectopic pregnancy. Well, 0:45:18.890 --> 0:45:22.610 if that if that rate prevails throughout the throughout the country, 0:45:22.610 --> 0:45:25.730 even in the abortions that are not covered under the insurance, then, 0:45:25.770 --> 0:45:28.969 then that means there were probably about 12,000 cases in 0:45:28.969 --> 0:45:31.969 the US over those seven years where a woman took 0:45:31.969 --> 0:45:34.489 the abortion pill and then later found out she had 0:45:34.489 --> 0:45:35.690 an ectopic pregnancy. 0:45:35.930 --> 0:45:37.690 And that's a big, big deal. I mean, this is 0:45:37.690 --> 0:45:42.130 one of the many reasons why, uh, why the in-person 0:45:42.130 --> 0:45:45.370 visits matter so much. Can you explain why it's so dangerous? 0:45:45.410 --> 0:45:47.730 I know you're not a doctor. You're a data analyst. 0:45:47.730 --> 0:45:50.330 But why is it so dangerous for women to take 0:45:50.330 --> 0:45:52.730 the abortion pill when they have an ectopic pregnancy? Why 0:45:52.730 --> 0:45:54.810 is it so important to figure out? Is this an 0:45:54.810 --> 0:45:57.810 ectopic pregnancy before you give an abortion pill to to 0:45:57.810 --> 0:45:58.129 a woman? 0:45:58.130 --> 0:46:01.330 So an ectopic pregnancy sometimes called a tubal pregnancy, it's 0:46:01.370 --> 0:46:08.810 when when the tragically the the the fetus is not 0:46:08.810 --> 0:46:13.010 in the uterus somewhere else, generally in a fallopian tube 0:46:13.010 --> 0:46:15.370 in the woman's body. There's no way that the baby 0:46:15.370 --> 0:46:19.410 can survive. Um, and at that, at that point, it's 0:46:19.410 --> 0:46:22.930 it's necessary for the woman to be diagnosed and to 0:46:22.969 --> 0:46:29.370 receive treatment to, to remove, to remove the ectopic pregnancy. Um, 0:46:29.690 --> 0:46:33.529 in the case of mifepristone, right there on the label, 0:46:33.770 --> 0:46:37.529 from the very beginning, it has said that it's essential 0:46:37.530 --> 0:46:42.690 to rule out the possibility of an ectopic pregnancy prior 0:46:42.690 --> 0:46:48.450 to giving this pill to a woman, because the the drug, 0:46:48.610 --> 0:46:51.370 the way that it acts within her body can, can 0:46:51.370 --> 0:46:56.250 in some cases cause the ectopic pregnancy to rupture, uh, 0:46:56.890 --> 0:47:00.049 wherever it is, wherever it's located within her body, which 0:47:00.050 --> 0:47:03.650 can lead to all sorts of infection and other problems down, 0:47:03.850 --> 0:47:07.770 down the road, potentially, uh, potentially she can end up, 0:47:07.810 --> 0:47:10.370 you know, being sterilized as a result of all this. 0:47:10.489 --> 0:47:14.770 So it's it's just a terrible situation. It needs to 0:47:14.770 --> 0:47:18.850 be screened for. It says right there on the label 0:47:18.850 --> 0:47:21.570 that it needs to be screened for from the beginning, 0:47:21.610 --> 0:47:25.209 to make sure that you're not giving something to this 0:47:25.210 --> 0:47:28.930 woman that can cause even greater problems than the problem 0:47:28.930 --> 0:47:35.690 that she's already experiencing by having having the ectopic pregnancy. Um, 0:47:35.690 --> 0:47:41.089 back when the abortion pill was first approved, one of 0:47:41.090 --> 0:47:46.730 the reasons for requiring the in person visits was that 0:47:46.770 --> 0:47:52.290 there's not really a reliable way to check for ectopic pregnancy, 0:47:52.650 --> 0:47:57.730 other than to give her an ultrasound and check to 0:47:57.770 --> 0:48:02.570 see where the baby is. Uh, the the label never 0:48:02.570 --> 0:48:06.569 went so far from the beginning in saying, like, you 0:48:06.570 --> 0:48:10.810 absolutely have to do an ultrasound, which it probably should have, 0:48:11.130 --> 0:48:13.969 but at least she had to be there in the 0:48:13.969 --> 0:48:17.410 doctor's office. Uh, it was very likely that they were 0:48:17.410 --> 0:48:20.370 going to do the give her the ultrasound to check 0:48:20.370 --> 0:48:24.290 to see whether there's an ectopic pregnancy beforehand. Uh, it 0:48:24.290 --> 0:48:28.009 would be great if we could mandate that they use 0:48:28.010 --> 0:48:32.529 the ultrasound. Of course, um, for the woman's health to 0:48:32.530 --> 0:48:36.130 ensure that the that there is no ectopic pregnancy, to 0:48:36.170 --> 0:48:40.370 ensure that the baby's not so far along because, uh, 0:48:40.410 --> 0:48:44.049 the farther along that she is, the greater the likelihood 0:48:44.050 --> 0:48:47.170 of complications from the pill. And, of course, the best 0:48:47.170 --> 0:48:51.089 thing as, as we know, from requiring an ultrasound is 0:48:51.090 --> 0:48:53.009 that some women are going to see their baby on 0:48:53.010 --> 0:48:54.689 the screen and they're going to say, I'm not going 0:48:54.730 --> 0:48:59.370 to do this. Like, that's my kid right there. So absolutely, 0:48:59.370 --> 0:49:03.410 if we could ideally, ideally we should we should go 0:49:03.410 --> 0:49:06.890 back to a situation where where the woman is required 0:49:06.890 --> 0:49:10.090 to be there in a doctor's office and hopefully required 0:49:10.090 --> 0:49:15.370 to have an ultrasound before before there's any prescription for mifepristone. 0:49:16.050 --> 0:49:16.370 Yeah. 0:49:16.370 --> 0:49:19.170 And, Aaron, this is probably a spot where it's worth 0:49:19.210 --> 0:49:22.129 having at least a quick conversation again about when you're 0:49:22.130 --> 0:49:25.010 talking ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages. This is where the abortion 0:49:25.010 --> 0:49:28.529 industry loves to muddy the waters and say, like, these 0:49:28.530 --> 0:49:31.529 are all the same things. And if you can't treat one, 0:49:31.690 --> 0:49:34.009 then you can't treat the other. And we heard it 0:49:34.010 --> 0:49:37.290 all around issue one, that we were limiting a woman's 0:49:37.290 --> 0:49:41.370 ability to have care for an ectopic pregnancy. Not the 0:49:41.370 --> 0:49:42.810 same thing by any stretch. 0:49:42.850 --> 0:49:44.850 Oh yeah. I mean, we were talking about this before 0:49:44.850 --> 0:49:48.810 we we started recording of, uh, you know, the the 0:49:48.850 --> 0:49:53.049 way the left attacks reports like this is especially when 0:49:53.050 --> 0:49:56.009 they don't have any, like, reasonable arguments to make. They 0:49:56.010 --> 0:49:59.890 just make stuff up. Right. Like, and and honestly, they, 0:50:00.050 --> 0:50:03.290 they catch you off guard with it because it's so, uh, 0:50:03.290 --> 0:50:03.730 over the. 0:50:03.860 --> 0:50:04.300 Top. 0:50:04.500 --> 0:50:07.100 Again. The best example of this was during the abortion 0:50:07.100 --> 0:50:09.340 amendment fight here in Ohio, when all of a sudden 0:50:09.340 --> 0:50:13.660 they said the heartbeat bill wouldn't protect miscarriage care. And 0:50:13.700 --> 0:50:15.820 it honestly was the first time I'd ever even heard 0:50:15.820 --> 0:50:19.419 the term miscarriage care. Not because, you know, people who 0:50:19.420 --> 0:50:23.980 have women who have miscarriages, uh, don't need medical care, 0:50:24.020 --> 0:50:28.219 things like that. But that's never been debated. Disputed, and 0:50:28.219 --> 0:50:32.580 it's always been understood. And abortion, uh, the intentional taking 0:50:32.580 --> 0:50:36.580 of an unborn life, uh, is very different than a 0:50:36.700 --> 0:50:42.820 miscarriage where the child, uh, because of biological or other circumstances, uh, 0:50:42.860 --> 0:50:47.460 does not unintentionally loses their life. Right? Um, and it's 0:50:47.460 --> 0:50:53.460 all the more egregious that they use things like ectopic pregnancies, uh, to, uh, 0:50:53.700 --> 0:50:57.339 to try to justify their, their sort of radical life 0:50:57.380 --> 0:51:01.220 taking agenda. Um, because literally, they're the ones that are 0:51:01.219 --> 0:51:02.660 trying to, uh. 0:51:03.739 --> 0:51:04.219 Stop. 0:51:04.260 --> 0:51:06.939 You trying to give abortion pills to women who might 0:51:06.940 --> 0:51:09.660 have ectopic pregnancies, right? And there is no way, like 0:51:09.660 --> 0:51:13.339 you said, certainly not over telehealth. Telemedicine, uh, and not 0:51:13.340 --> 0:51:15.500 over the phone or not over a website. Is there 0:51:15.500 --> 0:51:19.620 any way for that doctor prescribing, uh, the abortion pill, uh, 0:51:19.620 --> 0:51:23.700 to to know if that woman has an ectopic pregnancy? Um, 0:51:23.739 --> 0:51:26.460 and I'll just say, you know, especially if you've got 0:51:26.460 --> 0:51:28.660 kids in the car or kids listening, why don't you 0:51:28.660 --> 0:51:32.700 just press pause just for a minute? Um, because the 0:51:32.739 --> 0:51:35.899 reality when you talk to women in pregnancy centers, uh, 0:51:35.940 --> 0:51:38.940 the horror stories of women getting these pills sent to 0:51:38.940 --> 0:51:47.620 them at home, um, and, uh, bleeding in their bathrooms, um, uh, delivering, uh, 0:51:48.060 --> 0:51:53.259 children into toilets, um, and not knowing what to do, uh, 0:51:53.260 --> 0:51:57.020 being completely alone, being lied to, um, about what the 0:51:57.020 --> 0:52:00.580 pill actually does and what their situation actually is, is 0:52:00.620 --> 0:52:04.740 some of the worst things you can imagine. Um, and the, 0:52:04.739 --> 0:52:07.339 the it certainly is not caring for those women, for 0:52:07.340 --> 0:52:10.899 people who say they're all about women. Um, it really 0:52:10.900 --> 0:52:16.660 is awful. Um, so, you know, Jamie, for from our perspective, 0:52:16.660 --> 0:52:19.260 we want to see the FDA completely pull this pill. 0:52:19.420 --> 0:52:21.420 That's what our action alert is calling for. We're calling 0:52:21.420 --> 0:52:25.339 on our senators and congressmen and and FDA director McCarthy 0:52:25.500 --> 0:52:29.700 and HHS Secretary Robert F Kennedy to to pull the 0:52:29.700 --> 0:52:33.939 pill while more research is done. Um, but baseline what. 0:52:33.940 --> 0:52:34.660 What what. 0:52:34.660 --> 0:52:37.580 Does the FDA need to do in response to this? Uh, 0:52:37.980 --> 0:52:39.340 from from your perspective? 0:52:39.940 --> 0:52:43.660 So I think obviously we'd like to see the pill 0:52:43.700 --> 0:52:46.700 off the market as well. The abortion pill is not 0:52:46.700 --> 0:52:50.420 safe for women. It's not clearly not safe for the babies. 0:52:50.580 --> 0:52:55.380 And we we support, um, protecting the lives of both 0:52:55.420 --> 0:52:59.620 the mothers and the babies. Um, but in reality, in 0:52:59.620 --> 0:53:03.940 the short term, particularly given promises that President Trump made 0:53:03.940 --> 0:53:07.020 during the campaign. It's not likely that we're going to 0:53:07.020 --> 0:53:10.460 be able to achieve that. But he has promised to 0:53:10.500 --> 0:53:15.259 keep women safe. And it's clear that what's being done 0:53:15.420 --> 0:53:19.540 with the abortion pill right now is not keeping women safe. 0:53:19.540 --> 0:53:22.419 So we'd at least like to see the FDA, uh, 0:53:22.420 --> 0:53:28.540 reinstate the original safety protocols from 2000, which are much 0:53:28.540 --> 0:53:32.020 closer to the level of care that a woman would 0:53:32.180 --> 0:53:34.819 have received in one of those clinical trials that they 0:53:34.820 --> 0:53:39.940 were using to justify the pill being safe and effective. Uh, 0:53:39.940 --> 0:53:41.940 so if we could get back to that, we can 0:53:41.980 --> 0:53:47.180 at least protect women from the harm of the abortion pill. 0:53:47.180 --> 0:53:50.899 If we're requiring that the women actually have to go 0:53:50.900 --> 0:53:54.739 to a doctor in person in order to receive the pill, 0:53:54.739 --> 0:54:00.540 that's going to solve the problem of the telemedicine Medicine, abortions, 0:54:00.540 --> 0:54:04.900 the out of state mailing of the pill into into women. 0:54:04.900 --> 0:54:08.740 So the pro-life states basically right now, even if they're 0:54:08.739 --> 0:54:12.620 outlawing all abortions except those that are necessary to protect 0:54:12.620 --> 0:54:15.700 the life of the mother. Right. Um, in, you know, 0:54:15.739 --> 0:54:21.819 those states are still being inundated with pills sent from 0:54:22.060 --> 0:54:29.860 other places like California, where they're effectively no restrictions on abortion. 0:54:29.860 --> 0:54:34.460 So we need to be able to require the woman 0:54:34.460 --> 0:54:37.819 to see the doctor in person in order to get 0:54:37.820 --> 0:54:42.540 the pill, both for her safety and to allow the, um, 0:54:42.860 --> 0:54:46.580 the much better pro-life laws that are on the books 0:54:46.580 --> 0:54:50.100 in more conservative states to have the effect that they 0:54:50.100 --> 0:54:53.660 should have in terms of saving babies lives. 0:54:54.739 --> 0:54:57.420 Yeah. And I think it's also worth pointing out here, too, 0:54:57.460 --> 0:54:59.580 that as you as you look at the graphs that 0:54:59.580 --> 0:55:02.860 are in the report, as far as chemical abortions, it's 0:55:02.860 --> 0:55:05.420 just straight up and to the right, like this problem 0:55:05.420 --> 0:55:09.219 is only going to get worse as chemical abortions continue 0:55:09.219 --> 0:55:12.739 to increase. And I think you mentioned here that the 0:55:12.780 --> 0:55:17.700 Danco Laboratories, the manufacturer of mifepristone, more than 5 million women, 0:55:17.700 --> 0:55:20.820 according to their data, have used the pill since its 0:55:20.860 --> 0:55:25.020 approval in 2000. So this has just become a it 0:55:25.060 --> 0:55:28.500 magnifies the problem, magnifies every year with this information. 0:55:28.780 --> 0:55:31.379 Right? Right. They're bragging on their website that more than 0:55:31.380 --> 0:55:33.700 5 million women have used this. Well, have they looked 0:55:33.700 --> 0:55:36.460 at the safety data for these 5 million women? Because 0:55:36.460 --> 0:55:39.100 if they've actually looked at it, then they're going to 0:55:39.100 --> 0:55:41.980 see something much, much closer to what we see than 0:55:41.980 --> 0:55:44.700 what the FDA is allowing them to claim on the label. 0:55:44.700 --> 0:55:46.580 So it would be great if we could find out 0:55:46.580 --> 0:55:50.580 what they've what they've actually done, uh, with any of 0:55:50.580 --> 0:55:53.980 the information that they have. Uh, I can't believe that 0:55:53.980 --> 0:55:55.460 they don't know about this. 0:55:56.140 --> 0:55:59.989 Well, and, Jamie, uh, you know, obviously this data set, uh, 0:55:59.989 --> 0:56:03.310 that you guys, uh, pulled this report from. There's probably 0:56:03.310 --> 0:56:07.390 a lot more stories to tell from this, um, you know, uh, 0:56:08.070 --> 0:56:13.470 what's to come, uh, next, uh, from from EPC and, and, uh, uh, 0:56:13.670 --> 0:56:17.710 and this data, uh, on the pill and and and abortions. 0:56:19.230 --> 0:56:21.469 Well, we have a whole series of reports lined up, 0:56:21.469 --> 0:56:25.669 not just from EPC, but from other members of the coalition. Um, 0:56:25.670 --> 0:56:28.470 if your listeners want to check out the website, it's 0:56:28.469 --> 0:56:33.270 Stop Harming Women. That's where EPC, as well as these 0:56:33.270 --> 0:56:37.029 other organizations will be posting all of our reports where 0:56:37.030 --> 0:56:42.509 we look in more depth at, uh, exactly what what 0:56:42.510 --> 0:56:46.310 kinds of harms women are, are experiencing under abortion. Look 0:56:46.310 --> 0:56:48.470 more at the problem of the out of state shipment 0:56:48.469 --> 0:56:51.029 of the abortion pill. Look at, you know, on a 0:56:51.030 --> 0:56:55.069 state by state basis at the at the problems that 0:56:55.070 --> 0:56:57.750 we're seeing, uh, we're going to be able to look 0:56:57.750 --> 0:57:01.230 at just so many different aspects of this, uh, and 0:57:01.230 --> 0:57:05.990 help to show the, uh, the harm to women from 0:57:06.030 --> 0:57:07.590 the the abortion pill. 0:57:08.430 --> 0:57:10.790 Yeah. Well, that's that's great stuff to to know where 0:57:10.790 --> 0:57:14.549 to keep tabs on it. Stop harming women. I just 0:57:14.550 --> 0:57:16.350 wanted to repeat that for our listeners out there if 0:57:16.350 --> 0:57:18.310 they missed it the first time. So, uh, Jamie, this 0:57:18.310 --> 0:57:21.430 has been an eye opening conversation. Thank you so much 0:57:21.430 --> 0:57:24.430 for your work on this report. Keep up the great work. 0:57:24.430 --> 0:57:26.470 We're excited to see more stuff from you and how 0:57:26.470 --> 0:57:28.910 we can expose some of the harms that are happening 0:57:28.910 --> 0:57:31.350 to women because of these chemical abortions. And we thank 0:57:31.350 --> 0:57:33.189 you so much for your time in joining us today 0:57:33.190 --> 0:57:35.510 on the narrative. Thank you for tuning in to this 0:57:35.510 --> 0:57:38.910 episode of the narrative presented by CCV and produced by 0:57:38.910 --> 0:57:42.350 Wessler Media. If you found today's episode insightful, leave us 0:57:42.350 --> 0:57:46.230 a review or rating and subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. 0:57:46.470 --> 0:57:49.310 We're your hosts, Mike Andrews, Aaron Burr, and David Mahan, 0:57:49.310 --> 0:57:51.470 and we'll see you next time on the narrative.