1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:10,289 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to 7am. Two years ago, 2 00:00:10,310 --> 00:00:12,729 Speaker 1: we brought you the story of a secretive Korean religious 3 00:00:12,770 --> 00:00:16,470 Speaker 1: group accused of using deceptive tactics to draw in young Australians. 4 00:00:17,510 --> 00:00:20,540 Speaker 1: According to one former member, the group took over his life, 5 00:00:21,100 --> 00:00:24,620 Speaker 1: leaving him sleep deprived and isolated, and teaching him that 6 00:00:24,700 --> 00:00:28,100 Speaker 1: using his own judgement was dangerous. He described what happened 7 00:00:28,140 --> 00:00:31,580 Speaker 1: to him as mind-controlled. Since then, similar accounts have been 8 00:00:31,620 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: heard by a major Victorian parliamentary inquiry, which has now 9 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:40,449 Speaker 1: recommended new laws targeting coercive control by high-control groups. Today, 10 00:00:40,490 --> 00:00:44,110 Speaker 1: we're returning to our conversation with journalist Alicia Orr about 11 00:00:44,229 --> 00:00:46,990 Speaker 1: one young Australian who spent years inside the Doomsday Church 12 00:00:47,690 --> 00:00:54,580 Speaker 1: and what it took to get him out. It's Sunday, 13 00:00:54,730 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: September 27. This episode first aired in March 2024. 14 00:01:02,430 --> 00:01:05,450 Speaker 2: Alicia, you've been looking into a story about a young 15 00:01:05,470 --> 00:01:08,690 Speaker 2: guy in Perth. Who is he and where does this 16 00:01:08,750 --> 00:01:09,750 Speaker 2: story start? 17 00:01:10,390 --> 00:01:10,970 Speaker 3: Yeah, of course. 18 00:01:11,209 --> 00:01:13,990 Speaker 4: So Nathan, it's not his real name. We're using a 19 00:01:14,010 --> 00:01:18,470 Speaker 4: pseudonym just to protect his privacy. He's a 23-year-old guy 20 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,060 Speaker 4: from Perth. It was actually his father who put me 21 00:01:21,100 --> 00:01:23,660 Speaker 4: in touch with him. He was studying at the University 22 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 4: of Western Australia. He was in his first year of university, 23 00:01:27,140 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 4: so he'd only been on campus a little while and 24 00:01:30,380 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 4: It was, yeah, it was just a normal day on 25 00:01:32,459 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 4: campus for him. When another guy came up to him, 26 00:01:35,500 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 4: Nathan assumed, as you would, I guess, that this person 27 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,220 Speaker 4: was a university student. They approached him and asked him 28 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 4: if he would answer some questions as part of a 29 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 4: sort of survey. So Nathan didn't really ask many questions 30 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 4: about the survey. He thought he was just being helpful. 31 00:01:54,540 --> 00:01:57,620 Speaker 4: So he didn't realise that the answers he was providing then, 32 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 4: they might be used in any sort of manipulative way 33 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,620 Speaker 4: in the future. He thought he was providing data. 34 00:02:04,830 --> 00:02:08,730 Speaker 2: And okay, so what happened exactly? What kind of questions 35 00:02:08,970 --> 00:02:11,490 Speaker 2: were in this survey that you're talking about? 36 00:02:12,130 --> 00:02:15,110 Speaker 4: So this survey, there was a lot of questions in 37 00:02:15,150 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 4: there just about his background, his life, where he came from, 38 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:24,510 Speaker 4: his family, and especially it mentioned faith. And Nathan happily 39 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 4: told him that he was Christian, you know, that wasn't 40 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,540 Speaker 4: like overly religious, but he grew up as a Christian. 41 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,399 Speaker 4: By the end of the survey, the two exchanged contacts 42 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,940 Speaker 4: and this person was texting him quite often. 43 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,340 Speaker 3: From that moment, you know, he kept trying to reach 44 00:02:41,380 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 3: out to me for probably a couple of weeks. 45 00:02:43,580 --> 00:02:47,559 Speaker 4: So, yeah, I spoke to Nathan about his experiences, but 46 00:02:47,660 --> 00:02:50,179 Speaker 4: in this audio, we've had to just change his voice 47 00:02:50,260 --> 00:02:51,260 Speaker 4: to protect his privacy. 48 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 5: And. 49 00:02:53,180 --> 00:02:56,700 Speaker 3: He sent a lot of text messages, even, you know, 50 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 3: sometimes I'd just ignore his text, but then he kept 51 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 3: on persisting and he put a lot of effort into 52 00:03:03,139 --> 00:03:07,900 Speaker 3: his text to me, trying to kind of check up 53 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 3: and see like how I was going. 54 00:03:10,139 --> 00:03:13,850 Speaker 4: Eventually he said that he ended up agreeing to come 55 00:03:13,910 --> 00:03:17,710 Speaker 4: along to some event. The details were vague. It was 56 00:03:17,750 --> 00:03:21,450 Speaker 4: sort of a Bible study group. There was no specific 57 00:03:21,510 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 4: mention of who'd put it on. And it was held 58 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,780 Speaker 4: in a rented building in the city in Perth. But 59 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 4: there was no signage or anything to indicate if it 60 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,370 Speaker 4: was a particular church or who was even funding it. 61 00:03:34,930 --> 00:03:38,550 Speaker 4: And Nathan, he actually said that the group's interpretation of 62 00:03:38,590 --> 00:03:41,770 Speaker 4: the Bible, it sort of piqued his interest. They sort 63 00:03:41,830 --> 00:03:45,570 Speaker 4: of looked at the Bible differently. And everyone was so 64 00:03:45,630 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 4: warm and welcome at the event. And after that, he 65 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,089 Speaker 4: ended up signing up to do this eight-month course. So 66 00:03:53,110 --> 00:03:56,610 Speaker 4: Nathan was going along to these Bible classes, but these 67 00:03:56,690 --> 00:04:00,830 Speaker 4: weren't your average Bible classes. It was very extreme in 68 00:04:01,610 --> 00:04:04,570 Speaker 4: having to spend all your time focused on it. You 69 00:04:04,620 --> 00:04:11,220 Speaker 4: had to memorise different verses, read long sermons or watch 70 00:04:11,300 --> 00:04:14,339 Speaker 4: recordings of long sermons, and then they had to provide 71 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:20,020 Speaker 4: their reflections. You had to have your whole mind focused 72 00:04:20,220 --> 00:04:24,409 Speaker 4: on this religion, these beliefs. It was only after this 73 00:04:24,790 --> 00:04:29,570 Speaker 4: eight-month course that Nathan heard this word Shincheonji. He found 74 00:04:29,730 --> 00:04:31,770 Speaker 4: out he was part of Shincheonji. 75 00:04:31,790 --> 00:04:35,050 Speaker 2: Okay, and so what is that, Alicia? Can you tell 76 00:04:35,070 --> 00:04:37,530 Speaker 2: me more about it and where does it come from? 77 00:04:38,510 --> 00:04:41,510 Speaker 4: So Shincheonji, it has its roots in Korea. It was 78 00:04:41,610 --> 00:04:46,190 Speaker 4: founded back in 1984. Experts refer to it as a cult. 79 00:04:46,430 --> 00:04:48,870 Speaker 4: It's been called a doomsday cult. 80 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,890 Speaker 5: Today's 100,000 graduation ceremony of Class 114 is to congratulate 81 00:05:01,930 --> 00:05:05,710 Speaker 5: the graduates who learned the revealed word, understood the true meaning, 82 00:05:05,770 --> 00:05:06,930 Speaker 5: and became God's children. 83 00:05:06,950 --> 00:05:14,909 Speaker 4: It has more than 200,000 followers around the world. Its founder, 84 00:05:15,270 --> 00:05:19,330 Speaker 4: Lee Man-hee, he's actually been involved in other groups which 85 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,060 Speaker 4: have been referred to as cults. 86 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:29,300 Speaker 5: Yes, please, everyone, look at the screen. Chairman is moving 87 00:05:29,900 --> 00:05:36,169 Speaker 5: to get onto a helicopter from Cheongdo. Chairman got onto 88 00:05:36,190 --> 00:05:39,370 Speaker 5: the helicopter to come here, the Daegu Stadium. 89 00:05:40,410 --> 00:05:43,330 Speaker 4: What this group believe, they believe there's a day of 90 00:05:43,410 --> 00:05:47,490 Speaker 4: judgment coming and they believe everyone who's not a member 91 00:05:47,670 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 4: of Shincheonji that they will be destroyed. So you're in 92 00:05:51,620 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 4: or you're out. 93 00:05:53,360 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 6: And so our nation, everybody must become one. And when 94 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,969 Speaker 6: God looks at us, we have to be a nation 95 00:06:03,990 --> 00:06:08,910 Speaker 6: that is beautiful. And when it's beautiful, that's when God 96 00:06:08,950 --> 00:06:11,270 Speaker 6: would quickly want to come Amen. 97 00:06:23,270 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 4: So Nathan told me that those taking part in the 98 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,300 Speaker 4: Bible course, they were told not to share any contacts 99 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,020 Speaker 4: with others in the group before they graduated. They were 100 00:06:32,060 --> 00:06:34,580 Speaker 4: constantly just told they were They would get the answers 101 00:06:34,620 --> 00:06:36,969 Speaker 4: when they were ready. And they were made to feel special, 102 00:06:36,990 --> 00:06:39,990 Speaker 4: like they were part of something bigger. So they didn't 103 00:06:40,050 --> 00:06:41,510 Speaker 4: need to ask those questions. 104 00:06:42,110 --> 00:06:44,590 Speaker 3: They kind of plant this idea that using your own 105 00:06:44,810 --> 00:06:48,230 Speaker 3: way of thinking is very dangerous. So you become very 106 00:06:48,250 --> 00:06:52,370 Speaker 3: submissive to your teachers. You know, they teach that, like, 107 00:06:52,430 --> 00:06:54,989 Speaker 3: don't rely on your own thoughts. Like, God loves obedience, 108 00:06:55,170 --> 00:06:57,650 Speaker 3: so you need to be obedient to your teachers. So 109 00:06:58,130 --> 00:07:01,530 Speaker 3: you end up asking your teachers everything. Like, this is 110 00:07:01,589 --> 00:07:05,110 Speaker 3: the mind control part. They control your own decisions. 111 00:07:06,650 --> 00:07:10,330 Speaker 4: They were even sort of taught to defend it against others. 112 00:07:10,890 --> 00:07:14,070 Speaker 4: They're taught not to trust information from outside of the church, 113 00:07:14,770 --> 00:07:17,530 Speaker 4: as well as like being told that the internet is poison. 114 00:07:18,510 --> 00:07:22,050 Speaker 3: You're taught that Satan is in the media and he's 115 00:07:22,650 --> 00:07:28,130 Speaker 3: all over the internet. Like the internet equals Satan, basically. 116 00:07:28,150 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 3: So you're not allowed to go on any internet. You're 117 00:07:31,860 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 3: actually taught if you go onto the internet, you'll poison 118 00:07:35,060 --> 00:07:37,540 Speaker 3: yourself and you'll kill your spirit. 119 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 4: As well as that, there's also the control of time. 120 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 4: So Nathan described how he became sleep deprived. He committed 121 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:48,990 Speaker 4: so much of his time to the group that he 122 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,750 Speaker 4: would be staying out late, not getting back to the 123 00:07:51,850 --> 00:07:54,990 Speaker 4: early hours, and then he would leave his house before 6am. 124 00:07:56,270 --> 00:07:59,370 Speaker 3: You're sort of always under pressure to do things. You 125 00:07:59,410 --> 00:08:03,150 Speaker 3: don't have time to just know even what's going on. 126 00:08:03,910 --> 00:08:07,130 Speaker 3: And you're sleep deprived. And if you don't perform well, 127 00:08:07,450 --> 00:08:09,730 Speaker 3: you know, you can get rebuked and disciplined. 128 00:08:10,750 --> 00:08:14,020 Speaker 4: By the time that Nathan actually discovered what the group was, 129 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 4: he was well and truly indoctrinated by that point. 130 00:08:20,900 --> 00:08:23,500 Speaker 2: After the break, how Nathan realised he needed to get 131 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: out of Shincheonji. Alicia, it sounds like after joining Shinjeonji 132 00:08:38,340 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 2: that it started to take over Nathan's life. I'm wondering 133 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,500 Speaker 2: what his loved ones and family noticed about what was 134 00:08:45,540 --> 00:08:47,820 Speaker 2: happening and how Nathan was changing. 135 00:08:48,460 --> 00:08:51,500 Speaker 4: Yeah, Nathan, because I initially spoke to Nathan's father and 136 00:08:51,820 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 4: so Nathan's dad obviously had played a large role in 137 00:08:54,460 --> 00:08:57,660 Speaker 4: his story. He was talking about his son's behaviour, how 138 00:08:57,700 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 4: he'd seen it change over the course of the four 139 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,450 Speaker 4: years that his son had been involved with the group. 140 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 4: Nathan had become aloof. He was out all hours without 141 00:09:06,620 --> 00:09:09,450 Speaker 4: an explanation or not an explanation that made sense to 142 00:09:09,490 --> 00:09:13,330 Speaker 4: his parents. His father described him as a good student. 143 00:09:13,410 --> 00:09:16,770 Speaker 4: They were social. He liked to play music and he 144 00:09:16,830 --> 00:09:21,010 Speaker 4: had a few instruments, but he never did those things anymore. 145 00:09:21,050 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 4: He didn't go to the gym. He was really, yeah, 146 00:09:23,940 --> 00:09:27,210 Speaker 4: he was just a different person with them. his parents 147 00:09:27,230 --> 00:09:30,380 Speaker 4: were really concerned. They were worrying. They were thinking of 148 00:09:30,460 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 4: all sorts of what could be going on because they 149 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,500 Speaker 4: had no idea what it was. And they were so helpless. 150 00:09:36,620 --> 00:09:39,900 Speaker 4: They were looking into everything. What could this possibly be 151 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,589 Speaker 4: affecting their son? So yeah, it was only when his 152 00:09:43,830 --> 00:09:47,910 Speaker 4: parents found out about the presence of this group, Shincheonji 153 00:09:47,990 --> 00:09:51,329 Speaker 4: in Perth, that they realised that it was this group. 154 00:09:51,730 --> 00:09:54,610 Speaker 4: It had to be this group behind the changes they'd 155 00:09:54,710 --> 00:09:58,610 Speaker 4: seen in their son. they both spent months trying to 156 00:09:58,620 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 4: sort of start conversations with Nathan about it. They needed 157 00:10:02,660 --> 00:10:06,100 Speaker 4: to get through to him without him just cutting them 158 00:10:06,140 --> 00:10:09,770 Speaker 4: off completely. So it was really touch and go for 159 00:10:09,809 --> 00:10:10,170 Speaker 4: a while. 160 00:10:10,650 --> 00:10:10,829 Speaker 6: Right. 161 00:10:10,870 --> 00:10:14,290 Speaker 2: And how did they approach that conversation? I mean, it's 162 00:10:14,309 --> 00:10:16,770 Speaker 2: not a situation any parent would want to be in, 163 00:10:17,330 --> 00:10:20,579 Speaker 2: So how do you convince your son to leave a 164 00:10:20,620 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 2: group that's, you know, been called a cult? 165 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 4: Nathan's dad explained to me that he took Nathan on 166 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 4: a holiday away from Perth and that was the approach 167 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,300 Speaker 4: that finally sort of got through. Nathan told me that 168 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 4: he sat down to watch a movie with his parents 169 00:10:38,450 --> 00:10:41,410 Speaker 4: while he was there. And because the group had taken 170 00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:45,380 Speaker 4: up every spare moment of his time, this was the 171 00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 4: first time he'd sat down and watched a movie and 172 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,380 Speaker 4: with his parents, like he was in control of his 173 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,420 Speaker 4: time for the first time in years. So it was 174 00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:58,930 Speaker 4: this holiday that made him rethink everything and start looking 175 00:10:58,950 --> 00:11:01,230 Speaker 4: at things in a different way because he just started 176 00:11:01,290 --> 00:11:04,650 Speaker 4: questioning every aspect of it. So his exit from the 177 00:11:04,690 --> 00:11:09,390 Speaker 4: group was quite swift. After mentioning everything, concerns to another 178 00:11:09,610 --> 00:11:13,010 Speaker 4: fellow group member. Soon after, he got a message from 179 00:11:13,090 --> 00:11:15,430 Speaker 4: one of the leaders here in Perth of the group 180 00:11:16,010 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 4: saying they needed to talk. And because Nathan didn't get back, 181 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,300 Speaker 4: I think after that, there was a realisation from the 182 00:11:24,340 --> 00:11:28,980 Speaker 4: group that, no, he's leaving. Straight away, he was just 183 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 4: blocked on Telegram. So all the conversations and the groups 184 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,790 Speaker 4: that they usually have on Telegram. He was just blocked. 185 00:11:36,910 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 4: There was a message that Nathan had seen that went 186 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 4: out to anyone who he was teaching at the time 187 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,740 Speaker 4: and anyone else in the group just saying, do not 188 00:11:46,780 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 4: have any contact with this person. So yeah, he'd become poison. 189 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,730 Speaker 2: And seeing as this has totally upended Nathan's life, I'm curious, 190 00:11:56,910 --> 00:12:00,230 Speaker 2: what was Shinchonji getting out of this as a group? 191 00:12:00,270 --> 00:12:05,490 Speaker 2: What's the motivation to you know, manipulate and indoctrinate someone 192 00:12:05,710 --> 00:12:06,310 Speaker 2: like Nathan? 193 00:12:07,390 --> 00:12:10,630 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a difficult one to answer, especially considering I 194 00:12:10,670 --> 00:12:13,069 Speaker 4: was unable to speak to anyone from the group, despite 195 00:12:13,210 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 4: reaching out to members of Shincheonji and the leaders. No 196 00:12:16,390 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 4: one got back to me. From their perspective, I'd say 197 00:12:19,820 --> 00:12:22,380 Speaker 4: that they would probably say that they're helping people carry 198 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,239 Speaker 4: out a life of faith through the correct interpretation of 199 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,830 Speaker 4: the Bibles. But I guess in my conversation with Nathan, 200 00:12:29,030 --> 00:12:31,949 Speaker 4: he agreed Shincheonji operated in a similar way to a 201 00:12:32,010 --> 00:12:38,090 Speaker 4: pyramid scheme. So I understand that there's about 1600 followers 202 00:12:38,410 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 4: of Shincheonji here in Australia. And I spoke to the 203 00:12:43,380 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 4: president of Cult Information and Family Support Group, Tory Cleaver. 204 00:12:47,780 --> 00:12:51,790 Speaker 4: He told me, that he'd been approached by more and 205 00:12:51,830 --> 00:12:56,010 Speaker 4: more people, either people who'd been involved with the group 206 00:12:56,030 --> 00:12:59,380 Speaker 4: or family and friends who were concerned about people who 207 00:12:59,420 --> 00:13:02,740 Speaker 4: may be involved with the group. He listed them. He 208 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 4: would say that they are sort of the biggest threat 209 00:13:05,660 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 4: operating in Australia at the moment. And the funny thing 210 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,860 Speaker 4: is Shincheonji actually has charitable status in Australia, so it's 211 00:13:13,980 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 4: registered through the authorities as a charity, so it's recognised. 212 00:13:19,780 --> 00:13:23,740 Speaker 4: But I guess, yeah, there's no... Religion is sort of a... 213 00:13:23,940 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 4: It's not black and white. There's so many grey areas 214 00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 4: in it. 215 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 3: I myself getting really demotivated easily because I think, you know, 216 00:13:34,540 --> 00:13:38,209 Speaker 3: being inside the cult, as much it was very... harmful 217 00:13:38,270 --> 00:13:43,670 Speaker 3: to my family and my life outside. But it gives 218 00:13:43,690 --> 00:13:46,670 Speaker 3: you a sense of meaning because you feel very propelled 219 00:13:47,130 --> 00:13:50,750 Speaker 3: to do something for God. And it's almost hard to 220 00:13:50,790 --> 00:13:51,940 Speaker 3: replace that sense of meaning. 221 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 4: So Nathan, he never imagined he would be in a cult. 222 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,180 Speaker 4: It's a little bit sad in a way because he's 223 00:14:03,540 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 4: trying to move on now. He needs to get back 224 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,490 Speaker 4: into university. He dropped out of his university course completely. 225 00:14:08,510 --> 00:14:13,470 Speaker 4: He's still, you know, working through where his faith is 226 00:14:13,630 --> 00:14:17,490 Speaker 4: at the moment. He strongly believes in God. But, yeah, 227 00:14:17,550 --> 00:14:21,260 Speaker 4: he's lost something. He's also trying to replace the sense 228 00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 4: of meaning that that group gave him, that Shincheonji was 229 00:14:25,180 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 4: everything to him. for a very long time and, yeah, 230 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,859 Speaker 4: now he has to build that life back up. 231 00:14:33,860 --> 00:14:35,860 Speaker 2: Alicia, thanks so much for your time today. 232 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me. 233 00:14:53,370 --> 00:14:56,050 Speaker 1: 7am, we'll be back tomorrow with an episode with author 234 00:14:56,130 --> 00:14:58,690 Speaker 1: Sarah Wilson on how some of the world's most precious 235 00:14:58,870 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: old books are being destroyed and fed to AI in 236 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: a covert program, and how it was all exposed thanks 237 00:15:06,060 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: to a suspicious bookseller and a carefully placed air tag. 238 00:15:09,820 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 7: This particular warehouse has a logo, and it's a picture 239 00:15:12,300 --> 00:15:16,860 Speaker 7: of a Tyrannosaurus rex attacking a book. And what they 240 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,670 Speaker 7: were able to find is that Amazon workers had been 241 00:15:19,790 --> 00:15:22,950 Speaker 7: sharing information about what was going on in this particular warehouse. 242 00:15:23,130 --> 00:15:27,220 Speaker 7: They'd been charged with removing the spine of each one 243 00:15:27,260 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 7: of these books so that the pages could be easily photocopied, 244 00:15:30,780 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 7: scanned and then digitally uploaded. And the allegation is that 245 00:15:36,020 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 7: these pages were being used to feed the LLMs, the 246 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 7: large language models for Amazon. 247 00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:48,790 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening.