WEBVTT - Read This: It’s Not Roxane Gay’s Job to Make People Happy 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.720 Hey there, it's Ruby Jones. Each Sunday, we're sharing one 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:06.960 of our favorite episodes from our sister podcast, Read This. 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:09.880 The show features interviews with some of the best and 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:13.800 most beloved writers from Australia and around the world. Today, 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:17.119 we're going to hear from Roxanne Gay. Roxanne is an 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:21.600 American author, professor, and cultural critic known for her insightful 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.840 and often provocative writing. She's gained acclaim for her essays, fiction, 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:30.280 and memoirs that explore themes of identity, gender, race, and 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:34.040 body image. Her new book, Opinions, is a collection of 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.400 Roxanne's best non fiction pieces from the past ten years. 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:40.880 Michael Williams is the host of Read This, and he's 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:48.840 with me Now. Hi Michael, Hi, Ruby, Yeah, I'm great. 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:53.040 So this week on the show, you spoke with Roxanne Gay. Now, 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.279 I'm sure many of our listeners have either read one 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.080 of her essays or her fiction, But for those who 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:02.000 might not be familiar with Roxanne, can you tell us 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:02.680 a bit about her. 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.600 It's kind of hard to remember a time when Roxanne 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.960 Gey it wasn't a key figure in our public, intellectual, 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.320 literary life. She's kind of this extraordinary force. She was 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:14.839 one of the writers who really got how to use 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.839 the platform formerly known as Twitter, and was ubiquitous there 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.040 for ages when kind of forthright and strident on all 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.720 kinds of issues. Her maybe most famous book is Bad Feminist, 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:28.080 and that captures a bit of what she does. She's 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:32.160 this notable campaigner on questions of gender, on questions of 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:34.880 basic human rights, but she does so through a lens 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.560 that is personal and is kind of funny, and engages 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.560 with pop culture and works on all these different levels. 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:43.240 As well as Bad Feminist, she also brought out a 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.240 memoir called Hunger that was an account of her own 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.520 relationship with her body that talks about trauma, talks about 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.880 a historical sexual abuse, but it also talks about the 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.360 thing about moving through the world as a fat person 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.360 and the ways in which our culture is ill equipped 0:01:58.400 --> 0:01:59.920 to understand what that might be like. 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:04.560 And so in this episode, you two discuss Opinions, which 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:09.200 gathers together ten years of Roxanne's nonfiction writing. She is 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:13.400 obviously a seasoned essays so I'm wondering what you thought 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:14.360 of this collection. 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:17.680 Look, the collection is terrific, partly because it's a snapshot 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:20.160 of ten years of her opinion writing. So I mentioned 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.480 before about her presence on social media, but she writes 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.760 for kind of conventional masteads, but does hone ways that 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:30.440 for me are always incredibly energizing. She's willing to go 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:32.960 against the kind of orthodoxy on the things that she says, 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.480 and she's smart and thoughtful in ways that we really 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.960 want our public intellectuals to be. And so Opinions is 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:42.960 not just a snapshot of some really terrific writing, It's 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:46.200 a snapshot of a decade of I think what we 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:48.519 can all agree is pretty monumental. 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:54.919 Change coming up in just a moment. It's not Roxanne 0:02:54.960 --> 0:03:05.080 Gay's job to make people happy. 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.440 You were a very cane rata from a very young age, 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:12.280 I understand to that point. Your parents armed you with 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:16.040 your own typewriter for your writing and taking you to 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:20.560 the library every weekend. One of those earliest writing memories 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:21.760 for you. 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.080 You know, I read a lot growing up, and my 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.000 earliest memories were just like the odd that I could 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.040 go to this building where there were so many books 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:34.880 and I could just take whatever I wanted and go back. 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:39.040 I mean, it was amazing. It was just amazing. And 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:41.760 my biggest memories of reading are that I was reading 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:45.360 way above my pay grade. My parents just assumed that 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.960 if it was in a book, it was good, so 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.640 they didn't monitor my reading or censorate, And so I 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.400 read a lot of very adult stuff at a very 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:57.560 young age. And like one of the main books I 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.600 remember reading was Clan of the Cave Bear yep by 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:07.760 gene All, and it's this sort of epic prehistoric novel, 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.200 but also lots and lots of sex, And I had 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.080 no idea what I was reading, but I did know 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.040 that sex was something that happened on a bear pelt. 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:18.640 And nothing in life since has taught you otherwise. 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.200 That's true, yep. I mean, as far as I know, 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:25.039 that remains the case, and you know I keep my 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.880 bare pelts with me at all times. But it was 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:33.360 just amazing to be able to have such a rich 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.080 imagination and a rich imaginary life because my parents fostered 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:41.040 my love of reading and never tried to change that love. 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.760 Now has your rating? Has your rating changed? Do you 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:50.320 still push yourself to read stuff that is outside your 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.320 comfort zone? Or have you reached a point where you 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:55.440 lean into reading what you know you like to read? 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.159 Both? Actually, I do push myself to read outside my 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:02.520 comfort zone, because I have found some of the most 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.279 amazing books that way. I remember several years ago I 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:10.839 read this book called The Water Knife by Paolo Bauchi Galoopi, 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:15.040 and I loved it. It was completely out of my wheelhouse. 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:17.840 And like to this day, I remember that book like 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.800 with clarity, and I loved that I had taken the 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.320 chance on the book even though I knew nothing about it, 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:26.479 knew nothing about the author, and actually prefer to know 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:28.720 nothing about the author or what the book is about. 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.240 I just want to dive in and be surprised. So 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:35.160 I do like to read outside my comfort zone. But 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:36.960 there are also things that I love, like I love 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:43.000 to read the spy thrillers and like mysteries and conspiracies 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:47.120 in Washington, d c. CIA type novels like give me that, 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.280 and so when I need comfort, that's exactly the kind 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.599 of thing that I read, and I just love it, 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.560 just like, yes, give me more of this. Tell me 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:58.760 what's happening. If there's like a husband and wife and 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:00.920 like one of them, like the wife is the head 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:03.400 of the CIA and the husband's an operative and they're 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.000 like estranged. Yes, yeah, perfect. 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:08.680 I think it's good to now ask sweight spot the 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:09.320 things that. 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:13.799 Absolutely and like. It's called comfort reading for a reason. 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.520 I mean, I think it's important to challenge ourselves intellectually 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:18.880 and to read different things. But I also think there's 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:23.200 a time and place for comfort reading and for finding 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.640 something that's reliable that you know is going to just 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:26.840 like feel like home. 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:29.680 You read for comfort. Do you write for comfort or 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:30.960 do you write for challenge? 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.560 I used to write for comfort, and I would like 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:40.000 to get back to it. And right now it's not 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.000 that I'm writing for challenge. It's that I'm writing to 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:49.040 deadlines and to promise writing into solicited writing. So I 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:53.000 enjoy writing still, but it's you know, it's just a 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:57.640 little more challenging, and it feels like I'm doing all 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.600 of this writing that I'm obligated to write. I'm very 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:02.960 much interested in it, but it's not like just writing 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.279 with no audience in mind, where there's nothing at stake. 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:08.800 I'm just writing for myself and maybe something comes of it, 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.560 but maybe nothing does, and that's okay either way. So 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.320 I hopefully will be able to get back to that someday. 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.920 One of the things thinking about the task of kind 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.280 of gathering ten years of opinion writing That struck me 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:26.360 was not just about whether the wider culture has changed 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:30.640 in that time, but your position, Roxanne within it. People feel, 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.800 and I'm amongst them, a very strong connection with you 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.400 because of what you write. They have a strong idea 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.800 of who Roxanne Gay is and your name means something 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.960 to them. Has that changed what it is to write 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.600 opinion that kind of rusted on readership. 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:51.760 That's a great question. Uh, yes it has. And I'm 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:54.600 not thrilled about that in that I tend to write 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:57.320 primarily for myself, but more importantly, I want to write 0:07:57.680 --> 0:07:59.280 what I really want to write. I want to write 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.680 what I think is true, true, and what I genuinely believe, 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.400 and I want to do so without sort of censoring myself, 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:11.440 without anticipating criticism, without wondering what readers are going to think. 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:16.960 And as you develop more of an audience, and because 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:19.960 we have so many ways of interacting with people who 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.680 are putting their work into the public sphere, you tend 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:26.080 to be exposed to quite a lot of criticism, and 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.640 not all of it is well intended, not all of 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:32.760 it is useful. And there comes a time where I 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.680 just feel like I don't need any more feedback, and 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.160 I have found that it has affected my writing process 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:40.840 a great deal, and I'm trying to write my way 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.560 out of it right now and to think less about 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:48.600 what people might think, even when they like me, because 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.120 I appreciate that, and I will always appreciate that. It's incredible. 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:55.400 As a writer, you never expect that you're going to 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.240 find an audience, and so that I do have an 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:00.680 audience is something I will never take for granted, and 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:04.000 I'm grateful for it every single day. But I then 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:06.840 start to think, I don't want to disappoint you. I 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:10.640 don't want to challenge your understanding of me by showing 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:13.360 you more of who I am. And unfortunately, people tend 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:15.760 to think they know you because they read your work 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:19.920 and you've shared some personal details, and you know something 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:22.800 of me, absolutely, but you know what I want you 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:26.240 to know. And I'm actually a very private person, so 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.280 you know, maintaining some of those boundaries is also challenging 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.440 so that people understand, like, yes, you know me, but 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:36.400 you know a part of me that I've chosen to 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:37.800 put on the page. And I've put it on the 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:39.680 page because I feel like it's going to support the 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:42.600 argument I'm making no, there's no other reason for it. 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.880 So you know, it's challenging to navigate all of that. 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:49.439 That must be so hard, that kind of parasocial relationship 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:53.640 that kicks in, you know, particularly amongst the many modes 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.960 in which you write and have written. But it seems 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.640 to me a memoir in particular, and a kind of 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.520 into writing that you did for some time, and your 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.679 presence on social media. Those two things create the illusion 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:12.160 of a kind of heightened transparency. They create an illusion 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.800 of closeness between the rada and you. And because a 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:17.920 lot of what you've written about in some of those 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:22.760 spaces is about trauma and is about sharing ideas around trauma, 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.559 the things people project onto you must be pretty exhausting 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:27.400 thing to navigate. 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.480 It can be. Now I understand where that sort of 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:34.760 parasocial connection comes from, especially when people have connected with Hunger, 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:38.080 which is a memoir about my body and about living 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.720 in this world in a fat body. And one of 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.280 the things I've learned with touring this book for the 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.960 past seven years is that everyone has some kind of 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.760 struggle with their body, no matter what size, no matter 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.040 what level of ability, and that has been very eye 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:57.480 opening and humbling and so I understand the connections that 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.520 people feel. And also because the book engages with trauma, 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:03.120 a lot of people are carrying around a lot of 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:05.440 pain and a lot of trauma, and so I do 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.240 try to create space for that as I interact with readers. 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:13.880 But it's also challenging because you know, I wrote about 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.960 my assault, but it was like thirty eight years ago now, 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:20.600 and that doesn't mean like I'm completely over it, but 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:22.200 I'm like, you know, this is something that I have 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.839 processed in therapy for just about thirty eight years, and 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:29.839 I you know, I don't know that I even at 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.720 this point have anything more to say about it. And 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:37.560 so it can be challenging when people offer so much empathy, 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:40.800 which I totally receive and embrace and I'm grateful for, 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:43.280 but at the same time, I often have to try 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:47.720 and articulate that this happened a very long time ago, 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.199 and you know, the book isn't just about that, It's 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:52.800 about the aftermaths, and the aftermath, of course, has been 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:57.560 much longer than one day. And the other challenge is 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.360 that people love to share their own stories of trauma, 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.840 which again I'm honored to receive, but there are certainly 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.280 days where I think I can only carry my own 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.760 trauma today because people have told me the most horrific things, 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.840 like the amount of suffering in this world is staggering, 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:20.160 the amount of abuse some people have suffered is just staggering. 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.079 And my heart goes out to everyone who has to 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:27.640 experience things like this, And thank God for books, thank 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:31.920 God that we have this way of sharing our stories, 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:37.520 because for generations, people and mostly women, kept these stories 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.400 to themselves and had nowhere to put that trauma except 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:45.880 sort of back on themselves. And though change can be slow, 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.280 that is changing, and I'm grateful for that. 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:54.520 I think one of the things I so admire about 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:59.400 your opinion writing is that it is never glib. You know, 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:01.760 there's a thing happens. I think it's the kind of 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.080 tyranny of limited word counts in newspapers and the desire 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.120 to kind of get that take just so that kind 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.200 of rounds off the edges or decides, Okay, well we 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.040 have to deliver this one thing and do it in 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.160 a way that is self contained. And I feel like 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.480 you write opinion pieces like a book writer, like you 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.840 write them in a way that opens up the idea 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:26.720 rather than definitively closes it off one way or another. 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:31.000 And I'm curious about whether there were surprises as you 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:35.280 went back through that decade long archive. Were there things 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.640 you'd written either that you'd forgotten or that you looked 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:40.720 at and you're like, oh god, I would do that 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:42.160 completely differently. Now. 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:48.319 It's a good question. You know, it's interesting. The word 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.200 count thing is real, and I thank you for those 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.520 very kind words, because it's one of the things I 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.920 struggle the most with. I'm like, I have three thousand 0:13:57.920 --> 0:13:59.480 words of things to say, and you want me to 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.120 distill it down to fifteen hundred or twelve hundred, or 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:06.679 god forbid, sometimes nine hundred. And it can be really challenging. 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.800 And that's one of the things that I find most jarring. 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.280 When I read a lot of opinion pieces, especially like 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:17.440 op eds, you barely see any engagement with the subject 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:19.800 matter at hand, because like, you're in and out, and 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.040 nine hundred words is not a lot. And I also 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.400 believe like we need to trust people and their attention spans. 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.600 I really believe we can go further and we can 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.240 go deeper, but I do try to get as much 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:33.560 breath and depth as I can. No matter what my 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.440 word limit is. As I was going through the essays 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.560 for this book, I you know, I don't think there's 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.200 anything I would do differently, not because I haven't grown 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.920 or learned, or because I got everything right. But and 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.400 I say this about bad feminists too, it's that I 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:53.120 did the best I could with the information and resources 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:55.360 I had available to me at the time I wrote 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.320 those essays. I think the thing that surprised me was 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.040 just how many like book reviews I had written over 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.600 the years, and things like that I tend to forget, like, yes, 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.240 I actually do cultural criticism and I'm not terrible at it. 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:14.120 And also I noticed like certain tropes that I fall into, 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.800 certain like have like old thing and it's a rhetorical technique. 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:20.840 And my PhD is actually in rhetoric and technical communication, 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.120 so I know where it comes from. But this like 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.880 accumulation of listing all of the terrible things and then 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.040 making a point and then saying like, here's what we 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.000 need to do now. And when you see it in 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.680 like ten essays, like in a condensed amount of time, 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.760 it's just like, girl, let's try something else. And so 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.720 it was again a lot of humility happened as I 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.440 put the collection together, because I just realized some of 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:46.640 the things you do are very good, but you have 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:50.200 a couple little things you rely on a little too much. 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:54.120 And so I've actually been trying to do different things 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.920 in my essays since I opinions together and just like, 0:15:58.080 --> 0:15:59.200 let's grow a little here. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.240 It's definitely challenging. It's it's worse even than hearing your 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:07.400 own voice back on type is saying your repeated tics 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.600 and retired. For once in my life, could I just 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.680 list either two or four things rather than insist on 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:15.360 doing three every single time? 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.880 Absolutely? And I know, you know, every time you read 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.000 a book back you start to see ticks. Like in 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:24.680 my novel and Untamed State Mirae, who's the protagonist, she 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:28.640 exhales cigarette smokes so much, and I'm clearly using it 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.480 as this device to show that she's sad or she's pensive. 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:33.880 And when I read through the novel, I was like, 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:38.280 my god, she exhales too much. Fortunately, I don't take 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.880 myself so seriously that I can't laugh at like my 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.960 ticks and quirks. And you know, I just always think, 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.600 oh man, that's imprint forever. But then I I'll tell myself. 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:49.880 I'm going to do better next time. 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.920 Self awareness is a curse. I mean really, there really 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.440 is the unself aware. You can say many things about them, 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:57.080 but they're happy. 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.960 I think they really are. I mean they just want 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:01.320 around like life is great. 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.200 After the break, Roxane shares the changes in her opinion 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.840 writing over the years and reveals the people she refuses 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.080 to debate with. See that was a list of two things, 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:29.159 not three. We'll be right back. So opinions gathers a 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:31.760 decade's worth of your writing, and I want to know, 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.960 as you were putting it together, how much the business 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.080 of opinion and writing opinion you think has changed over 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:39.120 those ten years. 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.840 You know, in some ways the business has not changed, 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:48.240 but in other ways it has. In that the media 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:53.480 sphere continues to get smaller and smaller, and pay rates 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:57.199 are stagnant. People are still being paid today what they 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:01.560 were paid ten years ago, if not less, And that's 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:08.480 incredibly disheartening. And if you don't already have a portfolio, 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.400 a career, a name for yourself, it's even more difficult 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:16.320 to break in. And even though there are fewer legitimate 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:20.600 media outlets, there are an ever increasing number of ways 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.000 that people can express their opinions, and so the importance 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:28.080 of opinion in some ways is diluted by social media 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.520 and all of these ways that people can speak into 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:32.000 the void. 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.119 It's hard not to feel a bit like the ubiquity 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:40.200 of opinion has had a corrosive effect on other forms 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.399 of journalism as well, that opinion kind of at this 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:44.640 point does rules. 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:51.240 Separate, yes, and it has contributed to assuming that opinions 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.159 are facts, but you know, as to saying, ohs, feelings 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.440 are not facts. Opinions are important. I think we need 0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:59.760 to be exposed to a range of opinions. But we 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:03.040 all so need journalism, We need fact checking, we need 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:09.480 people to function in reality. And when we legitimize only 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:15.960 opinion over factual, researched and rigorous information, you know, we're 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.600 really saying that we're just going to trust any old thing. 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:21.800 And the reason people prefer that is because it's easier. 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.720 Few people really want to contend with difficult subject matters 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:28.879 and difficult things. They'd rather just go along with someone's opinion. Now, 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.719 most opinions are fine, they're reasonably good. But when you 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:37.560 bring in toxic opinions from toxic people who want to 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.920 do more harm than good, and people are easily swayed 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.920 by those voices. You really start to have a problem. 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:46.920 I couldn't write more. And there's also an element of 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.040 bad faith in it. It seems to me as well. 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.880 The people who who express opinion not because of any 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:56.960 kind of authenticity or strength of feeling, but because they 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.000 know it's going to get a response. They know that 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.280 it's grist to the meal of entertainment and conflict. 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:06.000 Absolutely, and that's one of the things that frustrates me most. Like, 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:09.120 believe what you want to believe. I can well not respect, 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:13.639 but I can understand a true believer. We may be 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:17.199 diametrically opposed, but if you genuinely believe, at least you 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:21.879 believe something. What really gets under my skin are the 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:26.000 people who are only seeking attention by any means necessary, 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:30.879 who are seeking power and other forms of cultural validation 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.040 because they're going to say the most provocative thing or 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.199 the most ridiculous thing, and they don't even really believe it, 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:39.040 like a Donald Trump or a JD. 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:39.520 Vance. 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:43.000 Now do I believe they have noxious ideologies, absolutely, but 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:48.800 are they true believers of their conservative, supposedly values. No, 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.160 they're not. Trump will talk about God, and I doubt 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:54.560 that man has ever stepped foot in a church, and 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:58.560 I just can't respect anything along those lines, nor do 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.119 I take it seriously, even though you can't ignore it, 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:03.840 because these are people who are running for president and 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.320 vice president in the United States. 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:10.200 And there is that element with both of those examples 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:15.360 opinion or political position as vaudeville. It's like, Okay, well, 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.000 this is going to this is one hundred percent going 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.200 to energize our base, or this is going to make 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:24.520 the people we despise angry, and therefore that's where our 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:25.280 victory lies. 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:31.600 Absolutely. I mean, it's politics is entertainment, and that's just 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:36.639 incredibly frustrating because politics isn't about entertainment. It shouldn't be 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:41.800 about entertainment. It should be about introducing candidates to the 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:46.480 people and allowing people to have choices, to be able 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:51.320 to decide which candidates will best suit what they want 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:55.080 for themselves, their families, their communities, and in many ways, 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:57.159 politics has always been a bit of a circus, especially 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:00.399 in the United States, but it has become more and 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:06.760 more and more ridiculous, and right now it's just incredibly 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:09.719 frustrating that this is what we're left with. And that 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:13.000 this is seemingly the best that we can deal. Yeah, 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:15.800 and I just wish that we could do better. And 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:19.600 I mean that for people of all political persuasions, for candidates, 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:22.240 you know, on both sides of the proverbial aisle, like 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:23.280 let's do better. 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:29.240 Part of the kind of narrative around the twenty sixteen election, 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:31.479 and part of the kind of collective memory of that, 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:36.240 was that one of the things that history seems to 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:40.920 remember that Clinton failed at in that election was talking 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:45.240 to people who weren't her base, talking to talking to 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:48.800 people who were disenfranchised for different reasons, and kind of 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:52.960 taking their grievances seriously. It's what jd. Vance made his 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:57.920