1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gatighl 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: people of the Uran Nation. Hello and welcome to the 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 1: Real Story with Joe Hildebrand. We've got an absolutely huge 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: show for you this week. We're going to be speaking 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: to an Israeli negotiator who negotiated the release of a 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: key hostage from Hamas and the incredible price he had 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: to pay for it. We're going to speak about how 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: he makes those decisions and what the future holds for 9 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: the hostages still in captivity in Gaza. I'm also going 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: to get into the weirdest thing to happen in twenty 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: twenty five, which is the defection of a Green senator 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: to the Labor Party. And I've got an incredible insight 13 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: into just what's going on on our university campuses. All 14 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: that and much much more coming up. But first up 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: this week, a whole bunch of peoplean jumping up and 16 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: down and giving Albow a hard time. And you know 17 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: that I can't stand it when people give my little 18 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: made Albow a hard time about Australia's defense spending. Apparently 19 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: we're going to get invaded by China and we have 20 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 1: no defense force and we're just going to be absolutely smashed, 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 1: and the Yanks aren't going to bother to help us 22 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: out because they've become an inward looking, isolationist America first entity. 23 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: Now all that is actually true, but it's not the 24 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: bm's fault and there's not a huge amount he can 25 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: do about it. But let's have a look at what's 26 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: going on. Firstly, the American Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth was 27 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: at a big forum in Singapore with the Australian Defense 28 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: Minister Richard Miles, and he basically said, directly from one 29 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: defense minister to another, Australia, we the US want you 30 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: to increase your defense spending from a bit over two 31 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: percent where it is now of GDP to about three 32 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: percent of GDP now. Defense Minister Richard Miles said, yeah, 33 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: all right, yeah, sure, I live a bit neil about it. 34 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: My people talk to your people. Albo was asked about 35 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: it the same day, presumably had it hurt exactly what 36 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: Richard Marles had had to say about it, But he said, no, 37 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: we will determine our defense spending. We're already putting an 38 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: extra ten billion into it, and much like John Howard said, 39 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: we will decide who comes to our country in the 40 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: circumstances in which they come. In regard to asium seekers, 41 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: Albow said, we will decide how much we'd spend on 42 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: defense and the circumstances in which we spend it. And 43 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: a lot of people have said, well, this is him 44 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: refusing to do what America is asking us to do, 45 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: and that means that America might not come to Australia's 46 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 1: aid in its hour of need, and that therefore endangers 47 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: Australia and puts us at risk of a Chinese invasion. Well, 48 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: the first thing is Australia is going to be at 49 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: risk of a Chinese invasion no matter what it is. 50 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: There is no way we are going to be able 51 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 1: to fend off the People's Liberation Army. With whatever our 52 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: defense capability, even if it was fifty percent of GDP, 53 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 1: we would never build up enough numbers, enough resources, enough 54 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: weaponry to be able to fend off an attack by 55 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: the Chinese. So you can put that to one side. 56 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: We could have a fleet of nuclear submarines, or we 57 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: could have a fleet of matchbox cars. It would make 58 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: no difference. The only thing we've got protecting us from 59 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: that out come is our alliance with the US, which 60 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,839 Speaker 1: is formed by two major treaties, the Anzas Treaty, which 61 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: is our oldest defense alliance, and the New Orcus packed 62 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: which is how we get those nuclear submarines at some 63 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: point in the year three thousand and fifty. Maybe, so 64 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: it is our relationship with the US that is all important. 65 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: And yes, that means that we have to do things 66 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: that the US asked us to do, things like go 67 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: to war in Vietnam when even the British wouldn't do 68 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: that and spill Australian blood because the Americans asked us 69 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: to go to war in Iraq when even the French, 70 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: America's oldest ally refused to do it. Remember went from 71 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: Fries to Freedom Friers. We were there again. Australians were there, fighting, 72 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: sometimes dying, in alliance, in solidarity with the Americans because 73 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,119 Speaker 1: they asked us to. Now, in either case we could 74 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: have said, like the British did it about Vietnam or 75 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: the French did about it, it's not our war, or 76 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: this is not a good idea, don't think you should 77 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: be doing this, And maybe they were right, but we 78 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: did not do that. We picked and we stuck. We 79 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: picked and sticked or pucking stuck, and so the Americans 80 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: cannot possibly question our loyalty to them. And again, yes, 81 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: we probably should increase our defense spending to three percent 82 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: of GDP. But do you know what, the Americans also 83 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: shouldn't be publicly telling us what we have to do. 84 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: It's considered it's not a bad form. I know, Trump 85 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: sort of turning up the rule book and there are 86 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: no rules anymore, fair enough, whatever, whatever, whatever. But the 87 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: idea is that you usually raise these issues behind closed doors, 88 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: not in public, in the presence of a representative of 89 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: that other country. So yes, Albo should raise defense spending 90 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: to three percent of GDP. Where it comes from as 91 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: another matter. But the last thing he should do is 92 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: say that he's doing that, because as soon as he 93 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: does that, he's got no bargaining power. He's got no 94 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: deal making power. And we all know the one thing 95 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: that Donald Trump respects more than anything else is the 96 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: art of the deal. He respects people who have cards 97 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: to play, even Zelenski, Vladimir Zelenski, the president of Ukraine. 98 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: All Trump cared about was whether or not he had 99 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: a strong hand, whether or not he was in a 100 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: position to be able to make a deal. And in 101 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: about a week's time, Australia is going to go to 102 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: the g seventh summit in Canada, assuming that Canada lets 103 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: Donald Trump in, they're going to meet. Albo's going to 104 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: meet Donald Trump, and they're going to talk about things 105 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: like tariffs, which Donald Trump has said should be raised 106 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: even higher for Australian steal at the same time as 107 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 1: telling us he wants us to big up our defense spending. 108 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: So he's going to say, I know we're going to 109 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: cost you money and steal exports, but we want you 110 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: to spend more money on defense. If Albo is going 111 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: to go in there and talk to Donald Trump about 112 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: those sorts of things and what do you want us 113 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: to do in return, well, then he can't really go 114 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: in and say I've already agreed to your defense ask 115 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: and say yeah, we'll do whatever you want. Now, let's 116 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: sit down and start negotiating. It's not how it works kids, 117 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: So I would back Albow. He's a pretty shrewd politician, 118 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: a pretty shrewd tactician, and pretty shrewd negotiator. If he 119 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: doesn't sort of say no, no, no, we're not going 120 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: to do this, he doesn't enter that room, he doesn't 121 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: enter that negotiating table with any chips, with any cards. 122 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: And again, if there's one thing we know about Donald Trump, 123 00:06:54,160 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: all he thinks about his cards. But now let's get 124 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: to the really fun story of the last week. And 125 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: that is something that absolutely no one expected. No one 126 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: had this on their twenty twenty five bingo card, even 127 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: the Labor Party who was the beneficiary of it, and 128 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: indeed even the person who actually did what they did. 129 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: That is of course Wa Senator to Rinda Cox, who 130 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: until a few days ago was a Greens senator, and 131 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: she has just affected to become a member of the 132 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: Labor Party and to sit in the Labor Party caucus 133 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: as a Labor Party Senator for the state of Western Australia. 134 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: And this is something that has just blown everybody's mind, 135 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: except perhaps for Albows, because of course Albo just gets lucky. 136 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: He just walks along the ground and a thousand flowers bloom. 137 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: And Napoleon was once I said, what quality do you 138 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: look for in a general? Napoleon said, I want a 139 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: lucky general. And this has become one of the most 140 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: famous axioms in politics and military that there is nothing 141 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: that rivals good luck when it comes to success, and 142 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: Albow has just been kicked in the ass by a 143 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: rainbow time and time and time again. This guy has 144 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: the best luck of any politician I've ever seen. And 145 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: so Labor wasn't even trying for this. Labor didn't even 146 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: want this, let alone ask for it. But they just 147 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: get a knock on the door, says Hi, who is it. 148 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: That's Derender Cox from the Greens. I'm hit it effect, 149 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: Oh all right, yeah, sure, it's kind of like it's 150 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: like it's like the cafeteria in a mean girl's high school. 151 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, right, you can sit with us. Sure, 152 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: don't even have to do anything in return. Nothing. And 153 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: so why is Dorinda Cox upset about the Greens? Well, 154 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: obviously she says that, you know, she's she's diverged from 155 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: the direction the party is taking. She doesn't like the 156 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: direction the party is taking. It might also have something 157 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that she ran for the 158 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: deputy leadership of the Greens and didn't win. On of course, 159 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: is quite sure how she didn't win because everything the 160 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: Greens does is top secret, despite them demanding accountability and 161 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: transparency from everybody else, and it was also made pretty 162 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: clear to her that she wouldn't be given a winnable 163 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: spot on the Green Senate ticket and the next selection 164 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: in three years time, so I dare say she was 165 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: probably a bit miffed about that too. She's also got 166 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,479 Speaker 1: a few kind of oh I don't know if their skeletons, 167 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: Maybe they're just very elderly people in her closet. A 168 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: few claims I think twenty staff or something have left 169 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: her office, and there are claims unproven, but claims that 170 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: maybe you know, she's not the best boss to work for. 171 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: But then again, it is the Greens, isn't it very 172 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: hard to know? It might just be a bunch of 173 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: hypersensitive millennials that get upset by anyone who behaves like 174 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,599 Speaker 1: a normal politician. And I'm assured by people at the 175 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: very top of the Labor Party that Direnda Cox is 176 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: in fact a normal She's like a sleep a sleeper, 177 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: normal person who's been hiding in the Greens. And she 178 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: was a former member of the Labour Party as well. 179 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: She joined the Labor Party before and anyway, now she's 180 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: come back, the Labor Party gets her gets an extra 181 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: vote in the Senate, although the Greens will still have 182 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: balance of power. It's just a good little few to them, 183 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: you know, good little flip of the bird, and they 184 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: don't have to do anything in return. Just another little 185 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: gift has been dropped from on high into the lap 186 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 1: of Anthony Albanezi. But let's take Dirinda at her word. 187 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: Why might she be a little bit upset or concerned 188 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: about the direction the Greens are taking. Well, let's look 189 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: at the person who beat Dirinda to become the deputy 190 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: leader of the Greens, and this is Marine Ferruki. And 191 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: this is someone I desperately wanted to become the actual 192 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: leader of the Greens because it would have just been 193 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: so funny. I just guarantee you it would have been 194 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: a barrel of laughs. Everybody would have been laughing, except 195 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: for her, because she's quite notoriously earnest and humorless. But anyway, 196 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: she has just accused Marine Ferruki, the depul leader of 197 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: the Greens, has just accused Melbourne University of launching a 198 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: quote crackdown on student protesters. Now, this, you might think 199 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: is a little bit strange coming from the Greens, who 200 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: like to dictate what everyone else should and shouldn't think, 201 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,479 Speaker 1: and can and cannot say. But anyway, she has accused 202 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: the University of Melbourne and it's vice chancellor Emma Johnson 203 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: of being mccarst because they are expelled and suspended. Four 204 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: students expelled to suspended for attacking a Jewish member of 205 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: the staff's office. So launchers sitting in his office, charge 206 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: into his office, sat in there. This guy is a 207 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: is not even a political figure. He's a he just 208 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: happens to be Jewish. He's a professor of physics. His 209 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: named Stephen Proor. They burst into his office and they 210 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: play stickers in the office labeling Professor Proer a war 211 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: criminal and declaring Zionus a genocidal maniacs. And there were 212 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: more than a dozen students all up draft and the 213 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: kefirs and masks channing anti israel slogans. According to a 214 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: report in The Australian, I'm reading from playing music demanding 215 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: the university cut ties with Israeli universities, on and on 216 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: and on. Police have it to be ended up, called 217 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: to remove the grip. Now, imagine if this happens in 218 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: your office, just sitting there and something. All these people 219 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: come in, they jumping up and down, accuse you of 220 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: being a genocidal maniac. I mean, obviously that happens to 221 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: me most days on Twitter. But you know, in the end, 222 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: two students get expelled and two get suspended. And the 223 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 1: fact that the university has allowed this and not overturned 224 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: it has led to Marine Farouki accusing the university and 225 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: vice Chancellor Emma Johnson of a McCarthy's crackdown. And here's 226 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: where it gets really funny, because I know Emma Johnson. 227 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: Emma Johnson and I were student socialists together. We were 228 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: activists together. We took part in these kind of protests, 229 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: not the sit ins that destroyed all the property and everything, 230 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: but the normal, peaceful kind. And Emma Johnson said no, 231 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: she said, and to her great credit, said no. Students 232 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: and staff have to feel safe on campus. You don't 233 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: get to go around doing this. And it just sort 234 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: of occurred to me as I was reading this art. 235 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: Hang on a minute, that name looks familiar. Is it 236 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: the same? Is it old from way back? And surely 237 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: enough it was. And she's wonderful woman. And the fact 238 00:13:54,440 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: that the Greens are accusing a former student activist, I'm 239 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: a student socialist who's gone all the way up from 240 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: being the president of the Melbourne Unions Student Union when 241 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,239 Speaker 1: I was around to now the vice chancell of Melbourne University. 242 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: That is the person they're accusing of McCarthyism. So this 243 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: is what I mean by i'd say it is just 244 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: a huge loss to the nation that Marine Ferruki is 245 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: not the Green's leader because she is accusing a former 246 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: student activist, former student socialist. We're of We were part 247 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: of a Green Left coalition, a coalition of the left 248 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: of the Labor Party and Green supporters. That was our 249 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: ticket and that person is now the vice chancellor of 250 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: Melbourne University. This should be a great victory for the 251 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: Green Left movement and no for Marine Ferruki. That's McCarthyism. 252 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: All I can say is Australia, I'm sorry Marie. Her 253 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: loss of the Green's leadership is also our loss as 254 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: a nation. But thank God that she's become the deputy 255 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: leader at least so she can entertain us with such 256 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: comments as these and also delivered us. Thank you Lord, 257 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: the body of Derinda cox Well. I promised you an 258 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: extraordinary guest at the top of the show and he 259 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: joins us now. His name is doctor Gershon Baskin. He 260 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: is a very highly decorated and storied servant of the 261 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: Israeli government. He served as a negotiator during a previous 262 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: peace crisis in Gaza with her Maas in which he 263 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: had to secure the release of an extremely high profile 264 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: hostage and in doing so had to make some pretty 265 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: incredible moral choices and moral decisions. And since then he 266 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: has formed a new organization called the Alliance for Two 267 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: States and he's found under it with a Palestinian activist 268 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: and this represents, I think a real watershed moment in 269 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: the process towards hopefully what is finally something resembling a 270 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: piece between Israel and Palestine. And so we are extremely 271 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: privileged to have him on the line live from Israel 272 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: right now. Doctor Gersham Baskin, thank you so much for 273 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: joining us on the real story. How are you? Thank 274 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: you for having me firstly, just talk a little bit 275 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: about your background and history, because you came as someone 276 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: who has served in a number of really senior roles 277 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: both within or on behalf of the Israeli government as 278 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: well as an advocate, as an activist, someone who was 279 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: sort of championing peace and causes from outside as well 280 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: as inside Israeli institutions give us the potted version of 281 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: your CV right. 282 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 2: So the very short version is I am agreeted to 283 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: Israel from the United States at the age of twenty 284 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 2: two alone. I was a graduate of a Zionist youth movement, 285 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 2: but at the same time I was a peace activist 286 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 2: as a kid from the age of twelve, protesting against 287 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 2: the war in Vietnam and in favor of the civil 288 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 2: rights movement in the United States. And somewhere along the 289 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: way when I felt that Israel is my home, I 290 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,479 Speaker 2: also felt that the major problem that the state of 291 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 2: Israel felt was in its contradictory self definition as a 292 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 2: Jewish and democratic state, when in fact the territorial that 293 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: it controlled between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea 294 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 2: comprised of two peoples each fighting for liberation, self determination, dignity, 295 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 2: and security. So way back from the year of nineteen 296 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 2: seventy five, I think is when I wrote my first 297 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 2: article saying that in order for Israel to be the 298 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: democratic nation state of the Jewish people, it had to 299 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: allow the Palestinian people to establish a state of their own, 300 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 2: living in peace next to Israel. And that's been my 301 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 2: position all along. My career has taken me through being 302 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 2: a volunteer. I need to work here, living in a 303 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: Palestinian village for two years, then committing they is Ready 304 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: government to hire me. I was a civil servant, the 305 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: first civil servant and is who are responsible for Jewish 306 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: ob relations through the Ministry of Education in the Prime 307 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 2: Minister's office. I established the Institute for Education for Jewish 308 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: out Coexistence, which I directed for seven years. At the 309 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: outbreak of the First Indifada, detecting that there was a 310 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: political change happening amongst the Palestinian people, I resigned from 311 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 2: that job and created a joint is Ready Palestinian public 312 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 2: policy think tank and do tank. We called it Israel 313 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 2: Palestine Center for Research and Information known as IPCRI, which 314 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 2: I co directed for twenty four years. Afterwards, I took 315 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: a break for a year to write a couple of books, 316 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 2: and then worked for six years trying to bring commercial 317 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: scale solar energy to Palestine. And over the last couple 318 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 2: of years I've been trying to restart the peace process 319 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: by running secret direct channels between significant is readies and Palestinians, 320 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 2: trying to change what I believe needs to be the 321 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 2: top down process here in order to get a week 322 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 2: from the conflict that has been going on for wee 323 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 2: too long, and of course this horrible war that's been 324 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 2: going on for more than a year and a half now. 325 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: So you are right at the very center of negotiations 326 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 1: or contact between Israel and Hamas, including via Qatar. And 327 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: you're also someone who knows more than anyone just what 328 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: is at stake and how I suppose, highly charged and 329 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: highly poised. The negotiations are around the release of the 330 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: remaining hostages that Hamas holds, and this is obviously a 331 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,959 Speaker 1: debate that has been raging since the release of the 332 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: hostages that have already been exchanged, and the number of 333 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: prisoners that Israel is releasing in return as part of 334 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: those negotiations. And you, many years ago were involved in 335 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: what was the most high profile hostage negotiation in Israel 336 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: at the time, which was the release of a young 337 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: Israeli soldier called Gillard Shalit, and you managed to negotiate 338 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: his release in exchange four. I might let you take 339 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: up the rest of the story. What was the price 340 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: if you like, that Israel had to pay for his release? 341 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, Israel released on twenty seven Palestinian prisoners and two tranches. 342 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 2: The first trunch was a list of four hundred and 343 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 2: fifteen names provaded by Hamas. The second was five hundred 344 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 2: and fifteen names provided by Israel. Within the first four 345 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty, more than three hundred of those released 346 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 2: had been convicted of killing Israelis. Amongst them were four 347 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 2: people who had been involved in the killing of one 348 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 2: of my wife's first cousins. So it was really personal. 349 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: I had nothing to do with selecting the names on 350 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 2: the list. The decision on the deal eventually was the 351 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 2: Israeli Prime Minister and the security forces and the Israeli government. 352 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 2: At the time, eighty percent of the Isreadi society supported 353 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: the deal. Twenty six members of the Natajao government at 354 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 2: the time voted for it, only three opposed it. Nataelle 355 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 2: himself supported it. And the biggest difference between then and 356 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 2: now is that when finally a Mosad officer was empowered 357 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: by Nataeo to carry out those negotiations, the Mosad officers 358 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 2: and was Da vite Medan asked Natagao, what's my mandate? 359 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 2: And Nataniell said three words, he said, bring him home. 360 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 2: We are now in nineteen months of this war in Gaza, 361 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: and Natielle has not yet told his negotiators bring them home. 362 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 2: So the big difference between then and now, and then 363 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 2: took five years before the Prime Minister was willing to 364 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 2: say bring him home. They we're now nineteen months into 365 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 2: the war. The Prime Minister is not willing to end 366 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: the war. Hamas has been willing to release all the 367 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: hostages for over a year now, even at one time. 368 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 2: They're now willing to release fifty eight hostages, most of 369 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 2: them are dead, but they're willing to do it at 370 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: one time, within a period of a week. But in exchange, 371 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 2: they demand an end of the war and is readily 372 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 2: withdrawn from Gaza, and of course the release of Palestinian 373 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 2: prisoners from jaili jails and a full skill effort of 374 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: the international community with Israel permission to let humanitarian eat 375 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: into Gaza, which is mandatory. People are starving to death 376 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 2: in Gaza, people are going from lack of fresh water 377 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: and Hagen. More than two million people in Gaza are 378 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 2: living intense and Gaza is destroyed. There's nothing left to Gaza. 379 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 2: Gaza has to be rebuilt, and of course the condition 380 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 2: for that is going to be that Hamas is not 381 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: longer in truck Gaza. But that's perhaps the leader discussion. 382 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: And one of those who were and again it was 383 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: not your decision, but one of those nominated by Hamas 384 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: was its future leader Jaya Sinoa, who became basically the 385 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: architect of the October seven terror attack. And I guess 386 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: that is the sort of And these are these huge, 387 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: sort of moral questions that you and the Israeli government 388 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: and others are grappling with. How do you sort of 389 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: I suppose when you are negotiating knowing that whoever is 390 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: choosing them, that you are potentially putting violent, extreme radicalized 391 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: killers back on the street in exchange for an innocent 392 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: person's life has been held. This young soldier has been 393 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: held for five years, as you say, from two thousand 394 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: and six to twenty eleven. You cannot bear the thought 395 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: of an innocent person suffering, possibly dying if action isn't taken. 396 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 1: At the same time, you must know that there are 397 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: potential consequences of releasing these prisoners. I just wonder how 398 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: do you sort of make those calculations. It must be 399 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: an extraordinary thing, just on a human level to have 400 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: to be able to process, you know, the cost of 401 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: what you're trying to achieve. 402 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 2: Look at the one level, and this is certainly the 403 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 2: level that can to bear during the Shalit negotiations. So 404 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: this Israel has an ethos, and the ethos of Israel 405 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 2: is that we don't leave anyone behind. The idea that 406 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 2: Israel has a people's army mandates the government to ensure 407 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 2: that no soldier who gets killed in battle is left 408 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: in enemy hands, whether they're living or dead, and Israel 409 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 2: makes every effort to bring them home. It's a kind 410 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: of social solidarity that I think is kind of unique 411 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 2: to Israel because of the price that Israel's willing to 412 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 2: pay to get its soldiers or civilians captive back home. 413 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: October seventh was different from everything that Israel has ever 414 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 2: known because the border was breached and part of Israel 415 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 2: is actually occupied by the army. But we need to 416 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: look at the context of this. When Gilachalite was freed 417 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: and they no longer israelis in Gaza, there was a 418 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 2: belief amongst people in the government, amongst people in society 419 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 2: that a peace or the peace process could be renewed. 420 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 2: And in twenty twelve and twenty thirteen, I met three 421 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 2: times with Palestinian President Mahmurda Bas, who at that time 422 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 2: enjoyed a lot more legitimacy than he does today, and 423 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: Makhmurdabas offered the opportunities for Nataiao to enter into direct, secret, 424 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: back channel negotiations on renewing the peace process toward a 425 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 2: two state solution, and Nataio refused. Natanyao's strategy from two 426 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: thousand and nine was to keep a weakened Hamas in 427 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: power in Gaza and an illegitimate Palestinian authority in the 428 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: West Bank and to claim to the world that we 429 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 2: want peace, but we have no one to negotiate with, 430 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 2: and that strategy worked very well until October seventh, twenty 431 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: twenty three. October seventh should have been a wake up call. 432 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 2: It should be a wake up call to all of us. 433 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: Israelis that you can occupy another people then for fifty 434 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 2: six years and believe that you can live in peace, 435 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 2: or lock two point two million people in a territory 436 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 2: like Gaza with eighty percent poverty and no hope for 437 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 2: a future and expected there's going to be quiet. But 438 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 2: Israel kept them quiet for a long time. And is 439 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 2: Israel deflected international pressure on it to negotiate peace with 440 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 2: the Palestinians because the world recognized that the Palestinian polity 441 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 2: was divided and Hamas was dedicated to the destruction of Israel. 442 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 2: So that's at a political level. On a very individual letter, 443 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: Yachie sin War was not perceived by the Israeli security 444 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 2: as a danger because he was serving a life sentences 445 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 2: for killing Palestinians. He killed Palestinian collaborators, so he never 446 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 2: killed in Israeli jue so they didn't think he was 447 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 2: so dangerous, even though when he got out of prison 448 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 2: he swore that his life's mission was to empty the 449 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 2: Israeli prisons from Palestinian prisoners. And even though there was 450 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 2: a period of time in two Thoy thirteen, fourteen fifteen, 451 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 2: even up to seventeen, one could see that Yechi Sinoar 452 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 2: was searching for a way to be pragmatic, to try 453 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 2: and end the economic blockade on Gaza, to try and 454 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 2: get Palestinian workers permits to work, to enable people to 455 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 2: move and live. He failed. Nothing changed in reality, and 456 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 2: I would say from twenty twenty one, if Sinoir was 457 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 2: already dedicated to his plan for an attack against Israel, 458 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 2: which they never imagined from their perspective, would be so 459 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 2: successful because the great surprise to everyone was that on 460 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: October seventh, the Israeli army wasn't on the border. The 461 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 2: Israeli army was mostly in the West Bank protecting sets, 462 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 2: and the border was empty. I mean, it's not like 463 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 2: Israel was facing the Russian army that day. Had there 464 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: been twenty twenty five tanks on the ground, three four 465 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 2: or five helicopters in the air, October seventh wouldn't have happened. 466 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 2: But Israel didn't protect its border. Hamas sent elite fighters 467 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: that have been trained for the mission over the border, 468 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 2: and then thousands of Gosins who crossed the border, and 469 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 2: with no army there went and did all the pillaging 470 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: and the killing. The Hamas soldiers did a lot of 471 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 2: killing and kidnapping, but their initial mission was to kidnap soldiers. 472 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 2: That of course went way out of control because they 473 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 2: kidnapped elderly, young people, children, They killed whole families. See, 474 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 2: they committed atrocities. On October seventh, Hamas crossed red lines 475 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 2: that should never be crossed by any war in any situation. 476 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 2: And let's face it, the reality is since October seventh, 477 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 2: Israel has crossed those red lines too. We have done things, 478 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 2: we have allowed us to do things in this conflict 479 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 2: that should never be done by human beings on both 480 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: sides of this conflict. 481 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: It's something that I think few could deny, and I 482 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: suppose it's something that you see happening in wars throughout history. 483 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: You know, if you look at the war on the 484 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: East and Front in World War two, you know you 485 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: see the supposed, you know, both sides committing atrocities. Just 486 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: getting back back to the sort of nature I suppose 487 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: of where the power balance. I mean, you mentioned you 488 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: sort of that Netanyahu thought that it had her Mass 489 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: on a leash. If you like that, that it would 490 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: not you know that if it was given and again 491 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: it had government of Gaza for a decade or more, 492 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: and that you know, it was not still as much 493 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: of a threat, and it had this sort of divide 494 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: and conquers strategy with the occupied territories or the disputed territories, 495 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call them, which is you have 496 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: har Mass in control of Gaza and Hi and control 497 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: of the West Bank, and you say, then you put 498 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: on this sort of theatrical pretense, we say, well, we 499 00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: can't negotiate because you know, the Palestinians aren't actually united, 500 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: while at the same time pursuing a sort of divide 501 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: and conquer strategy. Fatars now emerged as the more moderate administration, 502 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: albeit not an entirely democratic one, whereas Hamas is clearly 503 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: a highly extreme, violent terrorist organization. Firstly, how do you 504 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: progress towards a two state solution when you do for 505 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: better or worse and as a result of whatever sinister 506 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: diplomacy both inside and out. How do you get a 507 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: two state solution when Palestine is already divided within itself. 508 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, there's the international level, and it's 509 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 2: very important that countries like Australia that have spoken about 510 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: a two state solution for many many years but only 511 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: recognize one of them, stop this contradiction and recognize two states, 512 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 2: support a two state solution, call on the world to 513 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 2: recognize both. The state of Vista on the state of Palestine. 514 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 2: There are countries that recognize one but not the other. 515 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 2: The international community needs to recognize both and make this 516 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 2: a platform which there's global consensus on. Now that's not 517 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 2: going to change the reality on the ground in Israel 518 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 2: and Palestine. Palestinians really need only one country to recognize Palestine, 519 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 2: and that's Israel. And nothing is going to change significantly 520 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 2: until there's a change of leadership here. And we have 521 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 2: a triangular leadership here that all need to go, whether 522 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 2: it be Natano on the Ready side, Hamas on the 523 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 2: Gaza side, and the Palestinian Authority on the West Bank side. 524 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 2: Palestinians can only unify through the ballot box. They need 525 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 2: to go to. 526 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: Elections and not holding elections. They've refused to hold elections 527 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: for years. 528 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 2: That's right. There were supposed to be elections that were 529 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 2: agreed upon in May of twenty twenty one, and Mahmoudabas, 530 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: the president of the Palestinian Authority, counseled those elections with 531 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 2: the encouragement of Israel and the United States. And the 532 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: reason to counseled those elections. 533 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: Isn't sorry, sorry, we I just want to get a 534 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: clear isn't. My understanding is that's because Fatab was scared 535 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: that Hamas would in fact win those elections. 536 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 2: That no, the truth is that Hamas would not have 537 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 2: won those elections. They would have gotten between twenty and 538 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 2: thirty percent of the vote, but Mahmud Abass would have 539 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,719 Speaker 2: lost those elections. There were thirty six political parties running. 540 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 2: Two of the main parties that would have gotten most 541 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 2: of the votes were FATA, people in opposition to Abbas, 542 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 2: and there was no way that Abbas was going to 543 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 2: let those opposition to him within his own movement win 544 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 2: those elections, and that's primarily the reason why he counseled 545 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 2: those elections. There was a festivity of democracy taking place 546 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 2: in Palestine at the time. In Loust frank and Gaza, 547 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 2: No Palestinians need to register to vote, not like in Israel, 548 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 2: where if you're on the population registry you automatically of 549 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 2: the right to vote. Eighty six percent of the Palestinian 550 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,959 Speaker 2: public with the right to vote went and registered, and 551 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 2: thirty six political parties registered to participate in those elections. 552 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 2: Everyone was looking forward to the elections. Everyone knew that 553 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 2: this was a legitimate way to not only unify the 554 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 2: Palestinian people, but to get rid of the leadership of 555 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 2: Hamas and Abbas and have something new. But that's what 556 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 2: needs to happen now. Mass has lost its support in Gaza, 557 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 2: no One, very few people, a few percent percent seven 558 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 2: percent of the people in Gaza today want Hamas. One 559 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 2: of the reasons why Hamas people say today in Gaza 560 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 2: that they have to hold on to their weapons is 561 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 2: to defend themselves against the angry Palestinian public in Gaza, 562 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 2: who will put them on a barbecue on the day 563 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 2: that the Israeli armies are not there. They want them 564 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: to be held responsible for the crimes they committed against 565 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 2: the Palestinian people. On October seventh, Hamas, without consultation with 566 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 2: the people, committed collective suicide, and the two point three 567 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 2: million people in Gaza are paying the consequences for that today. 568 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 2: Of course, we don't resolve Israel of its responsibility for 569 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 2: the war crimes that Israel has been doing in Gaza 570 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 2: since October. 571 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: Obviously knew that that's that that were going to promote 572 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: a huge response, and that thousands of. 573 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: Them they didn't imagine. They couldn't have imagined the response 574 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 2: of Israel at the time. In fact, they themselves have said, 575 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 2: we sent one thousand, five hundred of our top fighters 576 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 2: across the border. We expected more than a thousand of 577 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 2: them to be killed, but there was no army there. 578 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 2: Now Abus has to go Natanyao has to go. Here's 579 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 2: our big problem. We have scheduled elections in November twenty sixth. 580 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 2: We can't wait that long. Naton Yello is endangering the 581 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 2: security of this country. But there's a new dynamic of 582 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 2: the world and we don't know how it's going to 583 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 2: play out because it's completely unpredictable. And that's Donald Trump. 584 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 2: But so far Donald Trump has negotiated with him and 585 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 2: left Israel out. He negotiated with the Saudis, he left 586 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: Israel out. He's negotiating with you ran right now, leaving 587 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 2: Israel out. There are negotiations taking place with Hamas now 588 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 2: for a deal, and it's difficult to leave Israel out. 589 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 2: But we might reach a point, hopefully we'll reach a 590 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 2: point where Trump is going to tell Natonio. 591 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: And the war just obviously you say Hamas, you know, 592 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: has to go, and Hamas is despised by its own population. 593 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: How do you negotiate with an extremist terrorist organization like 594 00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: Hamas for an outcome that results in its own sort 595 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: of self immolation and seeding power and submitting potentially its 596 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: members to the wrath of the population who they've used 597 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: as human shields. How do you in practical terms, how 598 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: do you actually remove mass from power? And surely you 599 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: can't do that by negotiating with them. 600 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 2: Will you'd be surprised. The Hamas leadership that's starting Gaza, 601 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 2: that are the ones who are being have come to 602 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 2: a conclusion already more than a year ago that they 603 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 2: can no longer govern Gaza, and they just. 604 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 1: Sell out their people on the ground, and then they 605 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: just retreat into their money like the Great gats Pell. 606 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 2: Well, that's one of the possibilities. Another possibilities reshaping Hamas 607 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 2: into something else, into a new political movement. The challenge 608 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 2: here is that they recognize that they can't govern, and 609 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 2: they have not come to a declaration that we're willing 610 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: to lead down their arms. But let's face it, the 611 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 2: reality of Gaza is that all of the military leaders 612 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: and guys have been killed already by Israel, and the 613 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 2: guys who are running the show in Gaza don't have 614 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: an organized army anymore. They don't up platoons, they don't 615 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 2: have brigades, they can't give orders to a military. They 616 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 2: have guerrillas who are hiding underground, planting booby traps and 617 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 2: buildings coming out of tunnels. Shooting at his early soldiers, 618 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 2: and they can continue doing that for years as long 619 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 2: as there is really soldiers there, there are targets on 620 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: the ground who can be killed. Just yesterday, three as 621 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 2: early soldiers were killed. There is no political leadership of 622 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 2: Hamas left in Gaza. They've all been killed or they've 623 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 2: been made irrelevant. There is a limit, I believe at 624 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 2: the time that we have where the negotiators outside of 625 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 2: Gaza will have the ability to enforce any kind of 626 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 2: negotiated agreement on the Hamas leadership in Gaza. These people 627 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,720 Speaker 2: that are control of Gaza today are really third fourth 628 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 2: tier military leaders who have never been out of Gaza, 629 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 2: have spent half their lives living in tunnels underground. The 630 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 2: only thing they know how to do is carry a gun. 631 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 2: And the very bizarre reality, as my Palestinian partner points out, 632 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 2: Hamas is the only army in the world which, when 633 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 2: there's a ceasefire, come out of the tunnels, wear your 634 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 2: uniforms and carry their guns, and when the war is 635 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 2: going on, they wear civilian clothes and hide underneath the tunnels. Well, 636 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 2: the civilian population is being killed. 637 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: So presumably the people who are ultimately responsible for this 638 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: the people who are funding it and masterminding it, who 639 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 1: are safe in Katar. If they say, yep, you know what, 640 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: grant has community or don't come after us, and you 641 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: can an international force or u enforce whatever can go 642 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: into Gaza, restore order, you know, hold elections. Is that 643 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: is that the sort of scenario you have and use. 644 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 2: In right, But not an international force. There needs to 645 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 2: be a legitimate Palestinian force. There are a number of 646 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 2: a handful of Palestinian leaders who are credible, legitimate, supported 647 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 2: two state solutions, who are against violence, who could be mandated. 648 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 2: It has to be mandated by. 649 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: That have to be protected by. They just got to 650 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: be shot dead, aren't they that have to have the will. 651 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 2: They will create a security force so people who are 652 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 2: loyal to them. They will invite the Hamas fighters who 653 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 2: are a bunch of kids who get one hundred dollars 654 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 2: a month to come out of the tunnels, get five 655 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 2: hundred dollars a month and be civilian police, or be 656 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 2: integrated into a security force. A legitimate Palestinian technocratic force 657 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 2: for a limited time can invite Arab forces to come 658 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 2: in and help stabilize the situation. Forces from Egypt from Jordan, 659 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,760 Speaker 2: from the Emirates, from Saudi Arabia, from other places, perhaps 660 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 2: with European help. They're going to need some kind of 661 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 2: temporary Arab led security presence there to maintain order. There 662 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 2: won't be any reconstruction of Gaza. Even the Kataris who 663 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,320 Speaker 2: funded Haramas have said that if there's a chance that 664 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 2: Gaza will be destroyed again, they're not going to pay 665 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 2: to rebuild it. The Emerantis have said very clearly, if 666 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 2: Hamas is in control of Gaza, on the day the 667 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 2: war is over, we stop giving humanitarian aid. We won't 668 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 2: pay for the reconstruction of Gaza held by the leadership 669 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 2: of Hamas. And this is part of the reality we 670 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 2: in Israel need to know that we have to withdraw 671 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 2: and enable the Palestinian people themselves to take care of 672 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 2: getting rid of Hamas. There are some hardline people who 673 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 2: may not give up their weapons. They can be granted 674 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,319 Speaker 2: the opportunity to leave Gaza with their families. Those who 675 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 2: stay will be hunted by the Palestinian security forces in 676 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 2: Gaza because they need to get rid of them. This 677 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 2: is the reality and most Palestinians recognize that. But sooner, 678 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 2: not later, the Palestinians have to go to elections because 679 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,959 Speaker 2: they need to elect a legitimate leadership that represents them. 680 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 2: I believe very strongly that the Palestinians need to pass 681 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 2: a law that political parties that support a non struggle 682 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 2: with Israel cannot run in elections because there must be 683 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 2: one sovereign and one gun in Gaza. You can have 684 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 2: multiple militia and supporting an non struggle when the leadership 685 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 2: does not is not a viable option for Palestinians anymore. 686 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 2: If there's one thing that Palestinians need to learn from 687 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 2: this war in Gaza is that they cannot defeat Israel militarily. 688 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,800 Speaker 2: They can only defeat Israel when they take the higher 689 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 2: moral ground. The creation of a Palestinian state next to 690 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 2: Israel is the moral solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. 691 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 2: It is it's the only solution. It's one that should 692 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 2: be back by the entire world. And if the Israeli 693 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 2: people believe that Palestinians were sincere in there and genuine 694 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 2: and they're designed to live in peace. Up to seventy 695 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 2: percent of Israelis was supported by the way. The same 696 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 2: thing is true on the Palestinian side. If they believe 697 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 2: that these reelies were sincere about living in peace and 698 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 2: did want to confiscate their land and build settlements and 699 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 2: control them militarily. A majority up to seventy percent of 700 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,280 Speaker 2: Palestinians overnight would support peace. 701 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 1: Well, I so hope you're right, and you make a 702 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 1: compelling argument. Doctor Gershon Baskin, thank you so much for 703 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: joining us from Israel on the real Story. Thank you. 704 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 2: You're very welcome. 705 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: And doctor Baskin is the co founder of the Alliance 706 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 1: for Two States alongside a senior Palestinian activist, and he 707 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 1: came to Australia last week as a guest of the 708 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: New Israel Fund. Well, that's all we have time for 709 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: this week. I hope you enjoyed it as much as 710 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: I did. We'll have another spectacular show for you next week. 711 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: But until then you can always leave us a little 712 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: review or leave us a little rating. I know us. 713 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,320 Speaker 1: We're at four point eight stars on the Apple podcast website. 714 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: That sounds quite good, but I'm going for four point nine. No, No, 715 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,240 Speaker 1: I want five, goddamn it, five, and I'll accept nothing less. Plus, 716 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: you can of course catch me in the news court 717 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: papers every Monday and Saturday. I'm also on Sky News 718 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: Channel SEM. I'm all over the place. I'm the king 719 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,720 Speaker 1: of all media. You can't miss me, but I'll miss you. 720 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: See you next week.