1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,689 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,690 --> 00:00:12,270 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Cryptocurrency's suffered a huge amount of reputational damage in 2022 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,930 Sean Aylmer: with the collapse of the FTX Exchange, but the technology 4 00:00:15,930 --> 00:00:20,579 Sean Aylmer: that underpins crypto remains solid, so what does 2023 look 5 00:00:20,579 --> 00:00:23,759 Sean Aylmer: like? Is this the year that the companies using blockchain and 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,579 Sean Aylmer: the related technologies really step up? Zeb Rice is one 7 00:00:26,579 --> 00:00:29,550 Sean Aylmer: of the founding partners of King River Capital, a venture 8 00:00:29,550 --> 00:00:32,820 Sean Aylmer: capital firm with expertise in this space. Zeb, welcome back 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,519 Sean Aylmer: to Fear and Greed. Now, you've made the point that 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:40,620 Sean Aylmer: the FTX collapse wasn't a failing of crypto technology. In 11 00:00:40,620 --> 00:00:43,050 Sean Aylmer: fact, it was a human failure. Just explain that. 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,129 Zebediah Rice: Sure. Yeah, you got to remember that FTX was not 13 00:00:47,130 --> 00:00:51,120 Zebediah Rice: really a crypto company in a technological sense. It was 14 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,660 Zebediah Rice: a, what's known as a shadow bank or a centralized 15 00:00:54,690 --> 00:00:59,070 Zebediah Rice: exchange. And what it did was it allowed average people 16 00:00:59,070 --> 00:01:02,550 Zebediah Rice: in institutions to trade crypto in a way that felt 17 00:01:02,550 --> 00:01:07,679 Zebediah Rice: familiar to them, looked like a bank. And unfortunately, when 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,880 Zebediah Rice: you have an institution run by humans, they're subject to 19 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:17,550 Zebediah Rice: stupidity or corruption or financial mismanagement of whatever kind. And 20 00:01:17,550 --> 00:01:20,100 Zebediah Rice: that's really what happened in the case of FTX. When 21 00:01:20,100 --> 00:01:24,179 Zebediah Rice: you look at the blockchain itself and what are called 22 00:01:24,180 --> 00:01:28,020 Zebediah Rice: decentralized exchanges, you see that they perform flawlessly. There were 23 00:01:28,020 --> 00:01:32,880 Zebediah Rice: not criminal activities that happened. They're up and running today. 24 00:01:33,390 --> 00:01:35,910 Zebediah Rice: There wasn't money lost. And so that really is the 25 00:01:35,910 --> 00:01:39,060 Zebediah Rice: key difference is that you have these decentralized exchange that 26 00:01:39,060 --> 00:01:42,390 Zebediah Rice: operate with the software, and don't require humans to make 27 00:01:42,390 --> 00:01:45,930 Zebediah Rice: decisions in the management of your money. The software is custodying 28 00:01:46,709 --> 00:01:50,220 Zebediah Rice: the money, and then you had FTX, which was custodying 29 00:01:50,220 --> 00:01:53,220 Zebediah Rice: money for people in this kind of shadow banking world, 30 00:01:53,460 --> 00:01:56,400 Zebediah Rice: and ended up either being very corrupt or very stupid. 31 00:01:57,090 --> 00:02:00,930 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so FTX kind of acted as an intermediary and, which brought 32 00:02:00,930 --> 00:02:05,010 Sean Aylmer: the human element into it. Do you think people understand 33 00:02:05,010 --> 00:02:10,620 Sean Aylmer: that, perhaps unfortunately for cryptos, they seem to be, in 34 00:02:10,620 --> 00:02:13,770 Sean Aylmer: people's perception at least, there's a linkage between the two? 35 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,040 Zebediah Rice: Yeah. There definitely is. Even with some very smart people. I mean, 36 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,800 Zebediah Rice: I was listening to, I think it was Kara Swisher and 37 00:02:19,889 --> 00:02:23,250 Zebediah Rice: Scott Galloway or two of the brilliant people in tech 38 00:02:23,250 --> 00:02:27,120 Zebediah Rice: and media, and they seemed to mix that up, and it 39 00:02:27,450 --> 00:02:30,450 Zebediah Rice: was very frustrating because they seemed to think, " Oh, crypto 40 00:02:30,450 --> 00:02:34,080 Zebediah Rice: was a cool fad, but now it's obviously dead." And 41 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,430 Zebediah Rice: it really reminds me of people saying in 2001, " Gosh, 42 00:02:38,430 --> 00:02:41,850 Zebediah Rice: that email and internet thing was an interesting fad, but 43 00:02:41,850 --> 00:02:43,919 Zebediah Rice: obviously it's dead. We'll keep, I'm just happy using my 44 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,760 Zebediah Rice: fax machine and my library card or whatever." I mean, 45 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,570 Zebediah Rice: it's so patently, obviously wrong if you're actually using the 46 00:02:51,570 --> 00:02:55,350 Zebediah Rice: technology every day, but most people haven't taken the time 47 00:02:55,350 --> 00:02:57,360 Zebediah Rice: to, or had the opportunity to use the technology, so 48 00:02:58,080 --> 00:02:59,040 Zebediah Rice: they're conflating the two. 49 00:02:59,669 --> 00:03:02,429 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So what's the next step? How does the sector 50 00:03:02,430 --> 00:03:06,960 Sean Aylmer: rebuild credibility after FTX experts like you understand that the 51 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:14,370 Sean Aylmer: underlying technology, the blockchain, worked seamlessly and incredibly well, but how 52 00:03:14,370 --> 00:03:19,500 Sean Aylmer: do you bridge that gap between perceptions and the reality? 53 00:03:19,500 --> 00:03:21,600 Sean Aylmer: And I suppose if you look at some of the value 54 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,360 Sean Aylmer: of some of the cryptos in the last few weeks, it suggests that 55 00:03:24,419 --> 00:03:25,440 Sean Aylmer: that is happening already. 56 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,919 Zebediah Rice: Yeah, look. It's all about building great businesses, as it 57 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,330 Zebediah Rice: always is. After the . com crash, it wasn't until people 58 00:03:33,330 --> 00:03:38,430 Zebediah Rice: saw big businesses solving big problems, generating enormous profits, that 59 00:03:38,430 --> 00:03:41,070 Zebediah Rice: the world really came around. And that's going to happen 60 00:03:41,070 --> 00:03:43,650 Zebediah Rice: again, and that may take a while. You think about 61 00:03:43,650 --> 00:03:48,660 Zebediah Rice: Google, Amazon, Netflix, Uber, all these giants. It took quite 62 00:03:48,660 --> 00:03:53,160 Zebediah Rice: a few years before people awakened. I mean, I remember with Amazon, 63 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,330 Zebediah Rice: I had people in the late 2000s, maybe even, I can't 64 00:03:57,330 --> 00:03:59,850 Zebediah Rice: remember when they turned a profit. 2007 or something like 65 00:03:59,850 --> 00:04:04,800 Zebediah Rice: that, or 2010, but there was always these naysayers at 66 00:04:05,670 --> 00:04:07,860 Zebediah Rice: banks and hedge funds and so on saying, " Amazon is 67 00:04:07,860 --> 00:04:10,380 Zebediah Rice: a biggest Ponzi scheme of all time. It's never generated 68 00:04:10,380 --> 00:04:13,950 Zebediah Rice: a profit." And yet we all now know Amazon is, 69 00:04:14,130 --> 00:04:16,200 Zebediah Rice: if not the most valuable company in the world, certainly 70 00:04:16,620 --> 00:04:21,060 Zebediah Rice: right up there. And so it just takes time for 71 00:04:21,180 --> 00:04:24,630 Zebediah Rice: profits to prove people wrong, and that's just around building 72 00:04:24,630 --> 00:04:25,980 Zebediah Rice: big businesses, great businesses. 73 00:04:26,010 --> 00:04:28,200 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Zeb. We'll be back in a minute. 74 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,000 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is co- founder of King River 75 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,390 Sean Aylmer: Capital, Zeb Rice. King River Capital is an organization you're 76 00:04:39,390 --> 00:04:42,990 Sean Aylmer: always looking to invest in, in the future, including startups 77 00:04:42,990 --> 00:04:45,089 Sean Aylmer: and beyond. I just want to have a quick talk 78 00:04:45,089 --> 00:04:48,570 Sean Aylmer: about Web3, 'cause I know it's something that you are particularly 79 00:04:48,630 --> 00:04:52,020 Sean Aylmer: first in. Let's start with some definitions. What is Web3? 80 00:04:52,020 --> 00:04:55,920 Zebediah Rice: Well, in order to understand Web3, let me just briefly 81 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:02,159 Zebediah Rice: remind people what Web1 and Web2 are. So Web1 was read. The internet 82 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,740 Zebediah Rice: happened in the 90s, and people went, " Wow, we can 83 00:05:04,740 --> 00:05:09,239 Zebediah Rice: read a newspaper online." Netflix was much later, but, " We 84 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:15,210 Zebediah Rice: can watch content online. People can have newsletters or whatever 85 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:18,779 Zebediah Rice: and put them out." And so, we call them blogs 86 00:05:18,930 --> 00:05:22,650 Zebediah Rice: now, right? And so Web1 was all about read, and 87 00:05:22,650 --> 00:05:25,409 Zebediah Rice: I think Chris Dixon may have coined this concept. Web 88 00:05:25,410 --> 00:05:29,310 Zebediah Rice: two was about write. So people went, " Well, it's not 89 00:05:29,310 --> 00:05:32,070 Zebediah Rice: just about reading stuff on the internet. Users can generate 90 00:05:32,070 --> 00:05:34,650 Zebediah Rice: their own content." UGC is what it's called. So we're 91 00:05:34,650 --> 00:05:37,320 Zebediah Rice: all familiar with the Facebooks and the TicToks and the YouTubes and 92 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,260 Zebediah Rice: the Instagrams and so on and so forth, and that 93 00:05:40,260 --> 00:05:43,830 Zebediah Rice: was this big revolution that caused this next wave of 94 00:05:43,830 --> 00:05:47,190 Zebediah Rice: innovation, and that was called Web2. So read, write, and 95 00:05:47,190 --> 00:05:50,430 Zebediah Rice: what the innovation in Web3 was, and what Web3 really 96 00:05:50,430 --> 00:05:53,520 Zebediah Rice: unlocks for us, and this hasn't yet been fully realized 97 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,730 Zebediah Rice: is value. So read, write, and now we have value. 98 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,839 Zebediah Rice: What does value mean? So before Web3, in order for 99 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:05,729 Zebediah Rice: people to exchange value or money on the blockchain, sorry. 100 00:06:06,180 --> 00:06:09,659 Zebediah Rice: The internet rather, you needed someone to enforce the rules, 101 00:06:09,660 --> 00:06:12,180 Zebediah Rice: right? You needed a centralized company that you could trust 102 00:06:12,180 --> 00:06:14,700 Zebediah Rice: with your credit card details, because you didn't want to 103 00:06:15,150 --> 00:06:17,460 Zebediah Rice: give all the details to some stranger on the internet 104 00:06:17,460 --> 00:06:19,919 Zebediah Rice: that was selling you a book or whatever, and so 105 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:21,690 Zebediah Rice: you needed a company in the middle that would be 106 00:06:21,690 --> 00:06:24,810 Zebediah Rice: kind of a custodian for that information, and you wanted 107 00:06:24,810 --> 00:06:28,620 Zebediah Rice: to do it in jurisdictions where those companies were regulated 108 00:06:28,620 --> 00:06:31,440 Zebediah Rice: and the players were regulated so that there was the 109 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:36,299 Zebediah Rice: threat of prosecution and penalties and imprisonments so that everything 110 00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:39,390 Zebediah Rice: would be upheld. Well, what blockchain does was it allows 111 00:06:39,390 --> 00:06:41,880 Zebediah Rice: people who don't know each other and don't trust each 112 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,680 Zebediah Rice: other to exchange value, money or other things of value 113 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,919 Zebediah Rice: like digital goods or digital representations of any good in 114 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,700 Zebediah Rice: the world, be it physical or virtual, to exchange that 115 00:06:53,790 --> 00:06:59,190 Zebediah Rice: in a what's called permissionless and trustless way. And it uses the 116 00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:03,810 Zebediah Rice: microeconomic mechanism design, or game theory of the blockchain to 117 00:07:03,930 --> 00:07:08,400 Zebediah Rice: ensure that these things don't get corrupted. And that was 118 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,390 Zebediah Rice: really the first innovation of (inaudible) with Bitcoin and 119 00:07:12,390 --> 00:07:16,740 Zebediah Rice: what's been replicated with Ethereum and all these other blockchains. And that's 120 00:07:16,740 --> 00:07:21,150 Zebediah Rice: really the promise that people suddenly realize that they can 121 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,780 Zebediah Rice: exchange value. So Web3 is value. Exchange of value in a permissionless, 122 00:07:25,020 --> 00:07:27,060 Zebediah Rice: trustless, decentralized way. 123 00:07:29,790 --> 00:07:33,780 Sean Aylmer: Okay. I think I'm with you. I can't say for 100%, but I'm trying to follow the line here. So where 124 00:07:33,780 --> 00:07:39,060 Sean Aylmer: do we get to? What does it eventually allow society 125 00:07:39,150 --> 00:07:42,960 Sean Aylmer: to do? Because Web1 and 2 have certainly changed to our 126 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,540 Sean Aylmer: lives. Where does 3 get to? 127 00:07:45,930 --> 00:07:47,670 Zebediah Rice: Well, let me give you a couple examples, right? This 128 00:07:47,670 --> 00:07:50,250 Zebediah Rice: is just easiest to understand what I'm talking about. So 129 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,970 Zebediah Rice: we invested in a company called Paystand, and in the 130 00:07:53,970 --> 00:07:58,350 Zebediah Rice: US over 50% of B2B transactions are with paper checks. If you 131 00:07:58,350 --> 00:08:02,100 Zebediah Rice: think about how (inaudible) , sorry. Businesses pay each other, 132 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:04,680 Zebediah Rice: it's often also with credit cards. You might buy a 133 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:09,300 Zebediah Rice: service on the web as a business for podcasting with 134 00:08:09,300 --> 00:08:12,150 Zebediah Rice: a credit card. Now there's a fee charged with a credit 135 00:08:12,150 --> 00:08:15,180 Zebediah Rice: card. There's a fee charged with transacting a check, and 136 00:08:15,180 --> 00:08:17,550 Zebediah Rice: there's time involved. So with credit cards, it's anywhere from 137 00:08:17,910 --> 00:08:20,640 Zebediah Rice: 1 to 3% fees that the credit card company, that's 138 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,890 Zebediah Rice: why Visa is such a valuable company. And with checks, 139 00:08:22,890 --> 00:08:27,480 Zebediah Rice: just because it's so inefficient, it can take a week 140 00:08:27,750 --> 00:08:30,870 Zebediah Rice: or 10 days and cost you again, 1 to 2 141 00:08:30,870 --> 00:08:34,710 Zebediah Rice: or 3% as a fee. So what Paystand does is 142 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,530 Zebediah Rice: they go to these businesses, and without getting into the 143 00:08:37,530 --> 00:08:40,890 Zebediah Rice: detail, they effectively take over the accounts receivable or the 144 00:08:40,890 --> 00:08:45,089 Zebediah Rice: payables, and they use the blockchain, the Ethereum blockchain to send the money 145 00:08:45,090 --> 00:08:50,069 Zebediah Rice: in instantaneously and permissionlessly for maybe, I don't know what 146 00:08:50,070 --> 00:08:54,089 Zebediah Rice: it is. 30 basis points or, a fraction. And so 147 00:08:54,270 --> 00:08:57,210 Zebediah Rice: what you're talking about with, when I go into this 148 00:08:57,210 --> 00:09:03,240 Zebediah Rice: gobblygook and theory around decentralized trustless blockchains, you're talking about 149 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,300 Zebediah Rice: something that's not just better, cheaper, faster, and easier. It's 150 00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:09,929 Zebediah Rice: not even often twice as cheaper, faster, easier. We're talking 10, 100, 1, 151 00:09:09,929 --> 00:09:13,800 Zebediah Rice: 000 times better, faster, cheaper, and easier in some cases. 152 00:09:14,250 --> 00:09:17,940 Zebediah Rice: And so it's email versus fax machines, where it's like 153 00:09:17,940 --> 00:09:22,020 Zebediah Rice: oxygen. People, when they've experienced email, they use fax machines 154 00:09:22,020 --> 00:09:25,050 Zebediah Rice: and they're suffocating. They're so frustrated. And so people that 155 00:09:25,050 --> 00:09:28,770 Zebediah Rice: have used the blockchain to send money go nuts when 156 00:09:28,770 --> 00:09:31,170 Zebediah Rice: they have to use a bank or a check. It's 157 00:09:31,170 --> 00:09:33,000 Zebediah Rice: a pretty funny thing to see once you've kind of 158 00:09:34,530 --> 00:09:37,440 Zebediah Rice: been through that. So that's one example I can give others, 159 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:38,700 Zebediah Rice: but that I think that illustrates it well. 160 00:09:39,179 --> 00:09:43,290 Sean Aylmer: The societal consequences of that presumably will be quite massive 161 00:09:43,290 --> 00:09:46,710 Sean Aylmer: because, I mean, Visa and MasterCard for example, they're kind of 162 00:09:46,710 --> 00:09:50,220 Sean Aylmer: well known as gatekeepers in many industries. So they kind 163 00:09:50,220 --> 00:09:52,439 Sean Aylmer: of say, " Yes, you can use a Visa or MasterCard 164 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,410 Sean Aylmer: to pay for certain goods and services and that." But 165 00:09:55,410 --> 00:09:58,410 Sean Aylmer: all that kind of disappears too, and right, or wrongly, 166 00:09:58,410 --> 00:10:02,819 Sean Aylmer: Visa and MasterCard actually are arbiters of good taste and things 167 00:10:02,820 --> 00:10:06,569 Sean Aylmer: like that. But that all disappears too. I suppose it 168 00:10:06,570 --> 00:10:10,530 Sean Aylmer: does make it frictionless, but that's not without some concerns 169 00:10:10,530 --> 00:10:10,980 Sean Aylmer: as well. 170 00:10:11,190 --> 00:10:14,610 Zebediah Rice: Well, look. This is a classic Clayton Christensen's innovators dilemma, 171 00:10:14,700 --> 00:10:18,270 Zebediah Rice: where you've got these banks and financial institutions around the 172 00:10:18,270 --> 00:10:22,080 Zebediah Rice: world that reap enormous profits from this inefficiency, and so 173 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:23,760 Zebediah Rice: there's been no incentive for them to change and you 174 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,000 Zebediah Rice: need a technology that's, again, not just twice as good, 175 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,970 Zebediah Rice: but 10 or 100 times as better, to come along to disrupt 176 00:10:29,970 --> 00:10:32,460 Zebediah Rice: them. And you get companies, I mean, look at Microsoft. 177 00:10:32,460 --> 00:10:35,280 Zebediah Rice: They've been extraordinary in how they've pivoted again and again 178 00:10:36,030 --> 00:10:39,750 Zebediah Rice: into the next technology wave and profited from it, and 179 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:41,910 Zebediah Rice: bought their way into it. And so there will be 180 00:10:41,970 --> 00:10:44,040 Zebediah Rice: banks and financial institutions that do that, and there will 181 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,979 Zebediah Rice: be, I think many more that become part of the 182 00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:47,580 Zebediah Rice: history books. 183 00:10:47,940 --> 00:10:50,189 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So how does King River Capital look at it 184 00:10:50,190 --> 00:10:51,870 Sean Aylmer: investing? This is kind of going back to a very 185 00:10:51,870 --> 00:10:55,110 Sean Aylmer: basic question, having spoken to you Zeb Bryce now for 186 00:10:55,110 --> 00:10:58,530 Sean Aylmer: 10 or so minutes, and you kind of, we've done this 187 00:10:58,530 --> 00:11:00,599 Sean Aylmer: before, when we've spoken, you kind of put my mind 188 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,630 Sean Aylmer: in places that I've never even thought about, literally. How 189 00:11:03,630 --> 00:11:06,390 Sean Aylmer: do you go about assessing something that you want to 190 00:11:06,450 --> 00:11:07,621 Sean Aylmer: invest people's money into? 191 00:11:07,621 --> 00:11:10,800 Zebediah Rice: Well, on the crypto side, it's really difficult. I mean, 192 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,950 Zebediah Rice: it's such a wild west out there. You kind of 193 00:11:13,950 --> 00:11:18,209 Zebediah Rice: have to understand that there are just higher risks, but 194 00:11:18,210 --> 00:11:21,869 Zebediah Rice: much higher potential returns. And so, normally we invest in 195 00:11:21,870 --> 00:11:24,150 Zebediah Rice: software and AI companies in our kind of core funds. 196 00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:26,730 Zebediah Rice: We have a crypto fund as well, but we understand 197 00:11:26,730 --> 00:11:28,559 Zebediah Rice: in the crypto fund and our investors, we've been very 198 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,260 Zebediah Rice: clear with them that it is higher risk, but we 199 00:11:31,260 --> 00:11:33,959 Zebediah Rice: expect from ourselves a higher return. So how do you 200 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,580 Zebediah Rice: go about it? I mean, it's all the normal things 201 00:11:35,580 --> 00:11:37,800 Zebediah Rice: we do. We look at the opportunity, the pain point, 202 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,520 Zebediah Rice: the teams, the technology, the competitive advantage and so on and so forth, 203 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,719 Zebediah Rice: but it's just with a higher degree of skepticism and 204 00:11:46,140 --> 00:11:50,579 Zebediah Rice: a higher expectation of return, frankly. So that that's, I 205 00:11:50,580 --> 00:11:52,590 Zebediah Rice: don't know. I could go on for a long time 206 00:11:52,590 --> 00:11:54,329 Zebediah Rice: answering that question. That's the short answer. 207 00:11:54,390 --> 00:11:56,670 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I get 208 00:11:56,670 --> 00:11:59,790 Sean Aylmer: that. I mean, let's finish up immutable. I know you're 209 00:11:59,790 --> 00:12:04,229 Sean Aylmer: an investor in Immutable, the NFT platform. That must have 210 00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:05,190 Sean Aylmer: been a pretty good investment. 211 00:12:05,580 --> 00:12:08,460 Zebediah Rice: Yeah, well, so far so good. Their business is booming. 212 00:12:08,670 --> 00:12:15,900 Zebediah Rice: What's interesting about that company is, it's just a very 213 00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:18,150 Zebediah Rice: well run company. It's a classic example. We met crypto 214 00:12:18,179 --> 00:12:20,309 Zebediah Rice: founders back when we were looking at Immutable, and they 215 00:12:20,309 --> 00:12:25,020 Zebediah Rice: were total cowboys and cavalier and didn't care about regulation 216 00:12:25,020 --> 00:12:29,309 Zebediah Rice: and just, we avoided those, fortunately. But the founders of 217 00:12:29,550 --> 00:12:33,630 Zebediah Rice: Immutable were serious people. They are serial entrepreneurs. They've built 218 00:12:33,630 --> 00:12:38,339 Zebediah Rice: businesses before, they'd made mistakes, and they had a prudence 219 00:12:38,340 --> 00:12:41,370 Zebediah Rice: about them even though they were incredibly ambitious. And so 220 00:12:41,370 --> 00:12:43,589 Zebediah Rice: that to me is, I think part of the reason they're doing 221 00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:47,160 Zebediah Rice: so well, is they've just got such great people there. But 222 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,319 Zebediah Rice: look, the business, as I said, is booming. I think 223 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,250 Zebediah Rice: last quarter they signed more new game partners than the 224 00:12:53,250 --> 00:12:55,710 Zebediah Rice: entire history of the company in four years or whatever it's 225 00:12:55,710 --> 00:13:00,510 Zebediah Rice: been, combined. They flipped Polygon as the leading, I think 226 00:13:00,510 --> 00:13:02,760 Zebediah Rice: they're now in the top three after right up there 227 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,940 Zebediah Rice: with Ethereum and Solana, in terms of NFT volumes, you 228 00:13:05,940 --> 00:13:08,670 Zebediah Rice: can go to cryptoslam. io and check out where they 229 00:13:08,670 --> 00:13:11,490 Zebediah Rice: are in the leaderboard, and we think they'll flip Solana. 230 00:13:12,450 --> 00:13:16,319 Zebediah Rice: It's just going from strength to strength. 231 00:13:16,530 --> 00:13:18,270 Sean Aylmer: Zeb, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 232 00:13:18,330 --> 00:13:18,750 Zebediah Rice: You're welcome. 233 00:13:19,140 --> 00:13:21,929 Sean Aylmer: That was Zeb Rice, co- founder of King River Capital. 234 00:13:21,929 --> 00:13:24,120 Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Remember, this 235 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,790 Sean Aylmer: is general information only, and you should seek professional advice 236 00:13:26,790 --> 00:13:29,940 Sean Aylmer: before making investment decisions. Join us every morning for the 237 00:13:29,940 --> 00:13:32,490 Sean Aylmer: full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business 238 00:13:32,490 --> 00:13:34,860 Sean Aylmer: podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.