1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. 14 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with retired 15 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: detective Ted Bathmwaite. In part one, Ted talked us through 16 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: in details the events that led to the murder of 17 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: six people on one night in October nineteen ninety two 18 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: on the Central Coast. 19 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: Welcome back, Welcome back to you, Gary, Thank you. 20 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: Okay, well, in part one, you gave us a very 21 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: detailed description of the lead up and the build up 22 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: to this. Neither of murder and brutality at the level 23 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: that we rarely get to see. And we just touched 24 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: on it briefly. So many red flags, and we have 25 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: the benefit of hindsight, and you would having research for 26 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: the book, but more importantly working on the investigation, you 27 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: would have you would have seen it. This appears to 28 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: be just so many, so many times where if people 29 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: put the hand up, brought it to the attention that 30 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 1: the police, maybe, just maybe this horror of an evening 31 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't have occurred. What's your take on that. 32 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: Well, it's always been a vexed question for me. The 33 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: question is why why didn't anybody speak up? And I 34 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: can only reflect on the context of those individuals lives 35 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: at the time, the one that were given the red 36 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 2: flag or had an opportunity to do a red flag. 37 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 2: I think that the deep effect of his coercive control 38 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: over people may have been something that was that they 39 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: that those women in particular, couldn't overcome if I was 40 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 2: to speak up. They may have thought He's going to 41 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 2: come for me. And he's always been a bullshit artist. 42 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 2: He's always talking shit. I don't really believe him, and 43 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: most of them in the book kind of expressed that, 44 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: oh yeah, that's just that's just Malcolm, that's that's just Baker, 45 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: that's just the way he is. Only on one occasion 46 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,839 Speaker 2: with one of the people that he offered a red 47 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 2: flag to really had a genuine fear that he would 48 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 2: carry it out. But again, why they didn't speak up 49 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: could be because of their fear of him. The coercive 50 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: control that he had over them, could have been in 51 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 2: the context of where they were in time, time and 52 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: place in Western Sydney and their attitude towards snitching or 53 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 2: their attitudes towards the police. It's hard to fathom. It's 54 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: hard to fathim. There's no obvious evidence to the reason 55 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: why no one went straight down to the police station 56 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: and complained. But then again, what are you going to 57 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 2: complain about. Here's this cranky man who he knows, a 58 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: pain in the ass, cranky man come around having a 59 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 2: big winge on my shoulder. What offense has he fit? 60 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: Has he committed? You know, he might have a gun 61 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: in the back of his car, but he may or 62 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: may not have the gun that he used on the 63 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 2: neither murders wasn't in his car, it was at his 64 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: house hid and't at his house. 65 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose when you break it down like that, 66 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: and it potentially could be in isolation, so it's just 67 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: someone voicing an opinion. He's always talking shit like that, Yeah, 68 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: never never carried it out. 69 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: But he's a coward, you know, and they would have 70 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 2: seen all those people would have seen him as a 71 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: cowardly The cowards have the courage to do. But eventually he. 72 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: Did a tough talk, but that never backs it up 73 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: type thing. But I suppose, and this is why. Yeah, 74 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: in today's society, we're so aware of these things, and 75 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: I don't think it would wash these days. The pub 76 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: tests for the day, people go okay, well you need 77 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: to speak up. But yeah, it's judging people on what 78 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: they could a long time ago. 79 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and don't. I don't hold any judgment to those people. 80 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: I just like to think about into context of where 81 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 2: it was in their lives at the time and their 82 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 2: relationships to him, and the broader societal context as well. 83 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,679 Speaker 2: It's not like it is now. It's hopefully much safer 84 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: for women now. 85 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, let's bring it up up to the night. 86 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: So what we left off in part one that he'd 87 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: gone round to Kerry Anne's place, stalking up and down, 88 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: patrolling up and down the street during the course of 89 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: the day. He'd been rejected by Kerry Anne's mother a 90 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: couple of days before when he said he wanted to 91 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: see Kerry Anne and then he's crept up to the 92 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: house and heard carry Anne talking to a mile in 93 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: the bedroom. Yes, on that basis, he's gone back to 94 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: his house. And how far away is his house. 95 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 2: It's only a five or ten minute drive. 96 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: Okay, that's very close. So gone back to it, driven 97 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: back to his house. Access to firearm that the police didn't. 98 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 2: Seize Bentley twelve gage shotgun. 99 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: So twelve twelve gauge shotgun. Just people don't understand firearms. 100 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: A shotgun spreads a lot of shots that come out, 101 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: depending on the size of the shells put in there. 102 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: But they do a hell of a lot of damage 103 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: when fired of the person close range. 104 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, close range damage that they're designed to kill it 105 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 2: close range. They're not hunting them. 106 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not just one projectile. Its sprays spray's yeah. 107 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: From memory, the cartridges that he used, there was somewhere 108 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 2: between sixteen and twenty six shot in each cartridge. 109 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 1: Okay, so that will spread fairly wide of the close 110 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: close range and signal well, punch a very big hole, 111 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: significant significant damage. He also cut off the stock of 112 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: the firearm. What was that about. He doesn't really explain 113 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: that in the subsequent interviews after his arrest. 114 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 2: But it would just be for ease, easy to hide, 115 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: it's easy to carry, it's less cumbersome. 116 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: Well, that's that was the old bank robbers tool and trade. 117 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: Cut off the butt of the shotgun so they could 118 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: conceal it. 119 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 2: Just make it a smaller, smaller weapon. Very in mind. 120 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 2: It was a pump action shot it's a pump action shotgun. 121 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 2: So you had two hands on the on the on 122 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 2: the slide, had one hand on the slide and one 123 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 2: head on the trigger. The stock was irrelevant. Really, Yeah, 124 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 2: he never pellowed to his shoulder to ad because it 125 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 2: was all from the. 126 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: Pips still operate. How many how many cartridges did he take? 127 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: He had a full full had seven up the spout 128 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 2: as we say, yeah, which is the foot in the firearm. 129 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 2: And you had a bandolier of twenty plus. 130 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: Okay, so he went there well armed, well armed. Okay, 131 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: Now I just want you and I apologize to people 132 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: listening to it that what we're going to talk about 133 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: is fairly brutal, but this is the nature of what 134 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: happens when a gunman goes on the rampage. So let's 135 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: take it through in the chronology of what happened in 136 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: that night. And this is based on your knowledge from 137 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: the investigation, your research in the book, and stuff that 138 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: he told police. 139 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 2: Suff he tool police, and subsequent conversations I had with 140 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: three of the victims of the matter. 141 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: Okay, if you just take us through it. 142 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 2: Okay. So on the night, for whatever reason walking up 143 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: the stairs that has flicked the switch were the previous 144 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: twelve months and all the conversations he's had with people, 145 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. 146 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: She's a bit, you know, she's ruined my life and whatever. 147 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: For whatever reason, when he heard the conversation with Chris 148 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 2: gall in the bedroom at seventy five Barnhill Drive, caused 149 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: him to go back to the house straight away, saw 150 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: the butt off, load the gun, get the bandoleer, and 151 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: he didn't go straight back to the house because it 152 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: was daylight saving, so he's spent time going around the town. 153 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: While he's going around Terry Gull waiting for darkness. He 154 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: actually runs into young Tom Gennan, who had been at 155 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: the house prior. 156 00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: To Baker, Kerrie Anne's younger brother, Kerrians. 157 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: Young brother, and he'd had a conversation with him. So 158 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: at this point he's down in Terrigle at dusk with 159 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 2: a loaded firearm which had been modified. Talking to Tom Gannett. 160 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: I'm convinced if he'd had the opportunity then and there, 161 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: but it would have been in public, he would have 162 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 2: shot young Tom Gannett. Tom Gannon's got away from him. Whatever. 163 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: Baker's then waited for it to get dark. He's come. 164 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: He's slunk up the hill at Grosvenor Revenue, parked out 165 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: of sight and came across come across the Barnhill Road. 166 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: He walked up the stairs stairway, two level stairs, stood 167 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: at the door of seventy seven Barnhill Drive, Barnhill Road. Terrible. 168 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: The front door was closed and he could see at 169 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: the at the the as a timber door and had 170 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 2: a piece of that opaque glass in the door, like 171 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 2: a square of opaque glass. He could see shadow figures inside, 172 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 2: he could hear the TV. And then he just kicked 173 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 2: the door. He just kicked the door open, charged into 174 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: the house. Lis Agannon was on his left, sitting at 175 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: a couch having something to eat. This is a Lisa 176 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 2: eight months pregnant. Lisa again and Carrie's sister saw Tom Gannon, 177 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: the senior, at the back of the kitchen. They've He's 178 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: moved forward towards Tom. Tom's moved out of the kitchen, 179 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: had the firearm on his hip. Tom's had a conversation 180 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: with him, Get out, get out, what are you doing here? Bang? 181 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 2: He shot Tom and the first shot hit Tom in 182 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 2: the shoulder and the chest. Tom spun around, semi conscious 183 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: and fell on the floor. He's turned immediately to his 184 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 2: left and virtually on top of Lisa. Gannon fired one 185 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 2: round into the top of her head. 186 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: And. 187 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: It was with such force that blew the top of 188 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: her head off, killing her instantly. At this point, Carrie 189 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: and Chris Gaure her friend or a boyfriend at the time, 190 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 2: heard the shots. Carriann's opened and they were in the 191 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 2: bedroom two rooms down the hallway to the left. Carrie 192 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 2: Anne's opened the door and she saw Matt or as 193 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 2: she called him, Mac. Saw Max. It's Mac. It's Max's Mac. 194 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 2: She closed the door and locked it. He heard her. 195 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: Baker's walked down the corridor, stood at the door, fired 196 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 2: around into the door of Carrie Anne's bedroom. The door 197 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 2: swung open. The first person he's seen is Kerrien's boyfriend, 198 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: Chris Gall, standing at the end of the bed. Fired 199 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: a shot at Chris. That shot, has said, Chris into 200 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 2: the right side of the face, removing basically his right 201 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 2: cheek and knocking him unconscious. He fell to the floor. 202 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: The Baker when he back at his house earlier on, 203 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: when he was planning to do all this these murders here, 204 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 2: he had decided that he would not shoot Kerrien, that 205 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 2: he wanted to kidnap her and take her away, which 206 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: is interesting in the context of what he's always done. 207 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 2: He wanted to get carry In away from the family 208 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:55,599 Speaker 2: or any of the obstacles that he had, and it 209 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: had taken with him a piece of nylon rope which 210 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 2: he had around his waist or over his shoulder. So 211 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 2: he grabbed Carrie Anne at the bedroom with Chris Gaul 212 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: semi conscious on the floor, and he could hear Chris 213 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: Gore can hear the conversation that He's Baker's having with 214 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:10,719 Speaker 2: carry Anne, dragged her, got her in her headlock and 215 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 2: dragged her down the corridor to the lounge room, where 216 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 2: She's all of a sudden seen her murdered sister Lisa 217 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: on the on the couch, screamed, wrestled, and Baker's scratched 218 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 2: her neck and tried to choke her. She's got away 219 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 2: and run back into the bedroom, which is quite bizarre 220 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 2: in a sense because before she gets to the bedroom 221 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 2: there was a laundry which had a back door, which 222 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 2: she could have run down in accord into the backyard 223 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 2: to escape, but she obviously didn't think of it at 224 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: the time. Baker's followed her back to the bedroom and 225 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: carry Anne stood up to him. He said, I've had enough, 226 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 2: had enough. If you're going to kill me, just kill me, 227 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 2: and she turned around and at that point from a 228 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: meet her and a halfway he shot her in the back. 229 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: Carrie has fallen face up and died instantly on the spot. 230 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 2: That while this was going on in the bedroom with 231 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 2: carry and Baker, Tom Baker had managed to get up 232 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: remain conscious of father, the father, the eldest Tom sr. 233 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 2: And he struggled down the front stairs and collapsed unconscious 234 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: on the middle of Barnhill road. As Baker was leaving, 235 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 2: Baker saw Tom Tom on the road, walked up the 236 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: Tom and at point blank, Raine shot him in the 237 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 2: back of the head, killing him. 238 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: It's brutal, isn't it. 239 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: It's absolutely brutal. 240 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: What just on this breakdown? A couple of things there. 241 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: How long did this rampage in this house last fall? 242 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: What are we talking? Is the way you've described it's 243 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: virtually in real. 244 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 2: No more than five minutes. The witness the witness accounts 245 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 2: have said. It has happened very quickly. 246 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: And the chaos and the sound of a shotgun going 247 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: off and the screens. 248 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: Yes, one, two, three, four, five times five times. 249 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: And so Tom's trying to escape from the house or 250 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: it's help Aul. 251 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 2: It's unclear what Tom's what Tom was trying to do, 252 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 2: but he only made it to the middle of the road. 253 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 2: Tom's relationship Tom soon his relationship with Baker was was 254 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 2: that were mates, did various jobs together. They probably did 255 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: some criminal activity together, but he that had a falling 256 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 2: out over some work that Tom had done some time ago. 257 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 2: But Tom was part of the family group that were 258 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 2: all encouraging carry to get away from. 259 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: From and so Tom's on the road and he just 260 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: come up and shot him in the. 261 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was still alive. And then he shot him 262 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 2: in the. 263 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: Back of the fellow that was in the bedroom with 264 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: Kerry Anne. Now Chris got what did he pass out 265 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 1: from the injuries. 266 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: He was semi conscious from the injuries, and he could 267 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: hear the conversation. He heard the conversation between carry Anne 268 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: and Baker as he dragged her out of the room 269 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 2: and dragged her down the hall. And then he heard 270 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: the conversation with carry Anne said just kill me. He 271 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 2: was unable to move. He was kind of virtually trapped 272 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: under the edge of the fold out bed, a large 273 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 2: portion of his face missing, bleeding profusely. 274 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: And do you think Baker just thought he was dead. 275 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 2: I think Baker thought he was dead. But Baker, Baker 276 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 2: assassinated the people that this this crime scene is all 277 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 2: about revenge, all about. 278 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: All family memb all family members. 279 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 2: This kid, Chris Gore wasn't he wasn't fair, so he 280 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: didn't he'd never met him, He didn't even know. Chris 281 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: Gaul is Sylvia Gall one of the ladies from the 282 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 2: Vocar nursing home. It's her son, Okay, because Sylvia Gall 283 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 2: invited Kerry Anne to go and stay with her for 284 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 2: a couple of nights after Baker bashed her in. 285 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: The flat and formed the friendship. 286 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: Formed the friendship from that. So it was her son, 287 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 2: that's where she met him. 288 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: What how chilling here in carry Anne like, if you're 289 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: going to kill me, just kill me her words? Isn't 290 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: that that just so sad that her wife has come 291 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: to that, this lunatic. 292 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: That she had no option, She had no choice. She 293 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: was twenty four years old, she hadn't she was a 294 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: whole life ahead of her and this man would not stop, 295 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: would not stop, and she was trapped in this bedroom, 296 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: probably thought Chris Gore was dead. What to do and 297 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: then she just called his bluff and lost. 298 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: Just makes me sad even thinking about it. And her 299 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: sister that was eight months pregnant. Yes, the baby didn't survive, 300 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: I'd take it. No. 301 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: Another really sad part of it. Lisa was engaged to 302 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: a serving police officer at the time, Paul Martin, who 303 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 2: worked in Sydney, and Paul had been at work that 304 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 2: day and he's on his way home and he'd heard 305 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 2: about the shooting at Teregul as he got off the 306 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: train at Gosford and he raced to the crime scene 307 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: and obviously a police were on scene it then and 308 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 2: they were able to control him and look after him 309 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: in a sense. But it took police quite quite a while, 310 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: had to get the dog squad there because I unsure 311 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: where the shooter was. The only evidence that he wasn't 312 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 2: in the house was gleaned from Chris Gore, but only 313 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 2: after Chris Gore was extracted from the house because he 314 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: was a potential killer twenty five minutes later by the 315 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 2: uniform police and he said, oh, Baker, Baker, and he 316 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 2: drew He couldn't talk, but he drew Baker's name in 317 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 2: the sand and the guards of the injuries, yeah, because 318 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: of the injuries. So when Paul Martin's turned up, that 319 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: was an hour later. Prior to that, some forty five 320 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 2: minutes when the amblaster were on the scene and the 321 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: scene was clear, there's no shooter on scene, and the 322 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: police were very comfortable that it was just going to 323 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 2: be a crime scene. Ambulece officers went inside and did 324 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: a fetal heartbeat, but there was no fetal heart right. 325 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 2: You know, the medical evidence say you have three minutes, 326 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 2: three or four minutes after an injury like that before 327 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: to save the baby, and there was no fetal heartbeat. 328 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: Just another sad aspect of this, Okay, So you've got 329 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: that happened, though, would imagine there'd be calls from the neighbors, 330 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: the police would be alerted what was Baker's movements after that. 331 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: So Baker then straightaway he got into his car and 332 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 2: he drove straight away to Sherwood Close in Bado Bay, 333 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 2: which is where his son, David Baker was living with 334 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: a de facto partner, Michelle Cooper and her small child, 335 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 2: Stevie Lee. And he'd been to this place many times. 336 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: He knew where it was. He'd often been seen stalking 337 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 2: around the place, often been seen parking down the street, 338 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 2: stereotax starring at the place, particularly subsequent to when David 339 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 2: subsequent to David Baker disclosing to Malcolm Baker that he'd 340 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 2: slept with carry. 341 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: So he's lost for vengeance and that wasn't satisfied with 342 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: the chaosity caused it the first place. And now he's 343 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: gone to see gouty son, the killy son. 344 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: Well, that's the interesting thing about that. This night of 345 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 2: the murders, he said, Well, I'm going to do one. 346 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 2: I'm going to get them all, and were reflecting on 347 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 2: conversations that he'd had with the ex wives in his 348 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 2: Sydney I'm going to kill them all and whatever. It 349 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 2: was become a parents in hindsight that if he was 350 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 2: going to do one, he was going to do them all. 351 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 2: And on this particular night, unfortunately, they were all home 352 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 2: and they were all available. So he drove to Sherwood Close. 353 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 2: It was night, it was dark, parked the car around 354 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: the street out of sight because Sherd five Sherwood closes 355 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 2: a little cul de sac, and he approached the house 356 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 2: down the left hand side where David's car was. It 357 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 2: was in darkness. David's dog started barking. David was in 358 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 2: the house with Michelle Cooper and Stevie Lee, and David's 359 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: dog started barking. At that point, David went outside out 360 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 2: the back to the back porch to see what was 361 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 2: making the dog bark. And as David stepped out of 362 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 2: the back porch looked to his left, the light came on. 363 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 2: Looked to his left, his father stepped out of the 364 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 2: darkness and from about three meters fired at him. That 365 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 2: shot hit him in the chest and knocked him unconscious, 366 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 2: and he slumped back onto a garden chair in the backyard. 367 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 2: Baker then walked up to him at point blank range 368 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 2: and shot him in the head, just the brutale, without 369 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 2: saying a word, no words for exchange. Michelle Cooper could 370 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: hear the conversation if there was one inside, and she 371 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: heard the shots, she was straight away. She looked out, 372 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 2: she saw her boyfriend slumped dead in the chair. She 373 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 2: straight away locked the house and bunkered down. Baker wasn't 374 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 2: interested in Michelle Cooper. He had no motivation, no reason 375 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 2: to hurt her. She'd never done anything to stand in 376 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 2: his way with Kerry Anne. She just happened to be 377 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 2: in that very short term relationship with David. At that 378 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 2: point he ran back to his car and he was 379 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 2: seen reversing his car down the street that he had 380 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 2: hidden in. The wheel screeched and he drove off. 381 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: Where did he head after that? 382 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 2: So after that he drove quite some distance from that 383 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 2: bad Oh Bay to four sixty nine Wyong Road Pacific Highway, 384 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 2: Wyong North, and that was the house of Ross Smith. 385 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: Heard twenty minutes. 386 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 2: It's good twenty minutes. Ye, oddly enough, in the book 387 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 2: you talk about the police response. So all the police 388 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 2: resources rushed to Terrigle. Police from the Wyon command were 389 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 2: rushing to Terrigle en route they'd heard about the shooting 390 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,959 Speaker 2: at bad O Bay. They diverted to bad O Bay, 391 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 2: which was closer. All the police resources were heading south. 392 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: So Gio gradit graphically for people down the stand. You've 393 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: got Terrible south, then Bay northwest, fifteen to twenty minutes northwest, 394 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: and then. 395 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 2: Wyong's another twenty twenty five minutes northwest. 396 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: So all the police have headed down to what was 397 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: happening at Terrygle, and then when the incidents happened at 398 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: bad Obay, that would have been notified. And then you 399 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: got Baker heading up to wile. 400 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 2: Well, heading up to Wine and there was no there 401 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: was no he would have passed the blue light police 402 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 2: cars on his way to wil So you got he 403 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 2: got to Wine. It was dark, he'd been there plenty 404 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: of times. He'd been seen stalking past the house he'd had. 405 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 2: This is a house of Ross Ross Ross Smith who 406 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: lived there with his de facto Leslie Joyce Reid. He 407 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 2: parked his car, which everyone knew about, out in the 408 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 2: front of the house was like a small property off 409 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: while off the Pacific Highway wiring roads. It wasn't like 410 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 2: a house per se. It was a farmhouse set back 411 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 2: onto a property. 412 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: And this hatred that he's got of Ross Smith stems 413 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: from that first time you met him. The issue with 414 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: the selling of the house. 415 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 2: Pure revenge for being ripped off. Well, there's two past 416 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: to it. Being ripped off the money because he was 417 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 2: obsessed with money, but ross Its inability to do what 418 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 2: he wanted to do to get the house to Millfield 419 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 2: caused him his plan to move carry in away from 420 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: the central customers. So it's all interconnected. 421 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: Okay, sorry, So he's headed to Wong. 422 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 2: And North Wong and so he's parked his car in 423 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 2: the front yard. Balders Brass, it's all in darkness. Knocked 424 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: on the front door. Ross's de facto Leslie Joyce Reed, 425 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 2: who he'd never met before, answered the door. He held 426 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 2: the gun to a chest, asked where's Ross. He frog 427 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 2: marched it down the down left, down the corridor. As 428 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 2: he's walking down a corridor to the back room the 429 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 2: bathrooms on the right, he saw Ross Smith's in the bath, 430 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: naked in the bath, eating some chicken that Kerry at 431 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 2: Leslie had given him for tea. As he's as Ross 432 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 2: saw Baker in the doorway with the gunpoint. Ross stood 433 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 2: up and threw his wallet and threw anything he could 434 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 2: at Baker. Baker's fired one shot from the door for 435 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 2: about three meters which has hit Ross Smith in the chest. 436 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 2: Ross is alive still and slumped down into the bath. 437 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 2: Ross He's still conscious, slumped down into the bar. He's 438 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 2: turned back to Leslie, who's in the end of the corridor, 439 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 2: who's got her arms in the air and basically defenseless. 440 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 2: Fired a shot at Leslie which has hit her in 441 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 2: the left shoulder and the right arm. She's collapsed, fallen 442 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: on the floor the into the main bedroom. He's turned 443 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: back to Ross and fired has shot at Rice's close 444 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 2: range in the head, like he did with his son, 445 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: like he did with Tom kill very similar, just very 446 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: close top of the head. Killed them instantly. Leslie's alive 447 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 2: in the bedroom. This is a woman he's never met. 448 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 2: This is the woman he's got no hate for, no 449 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 2: vengeance for why he shot her. I don't know. They 450 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 2: could have done the same to Michelle Cooper if he 451 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 2: wanted to the fact that she was there and she 452 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 2: saw him, and maybe he was thinking about his own 453 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 2: skin at this time. I don't want any witnesses to this. 454 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: No one see me yet, they're all dead. She's a witness. 455 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 2: He stepped into the bedroom and shot her again. She 456 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 2: lived for an hour, an hour or so witnessed. The 457 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 2: neighbors came, so he shot her again. Then he he 458 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 2: drove his car around the back of the house Ross 459 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 2: Smiths house, stole her car, her little Masda, and left 460 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 2: the property and headed north again towards Doyleson. What was 461 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 2: he's playing there, He doesn't Unfortunately, it's not articulated in 462 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: the interviews. I'm of the belief that he stopped at 463 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 2: Doyleson to get a drink and to get some petrol, 464 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 2: and he would he was going to then head west 465 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 2: to kill ross Smith's father and brother who lived nearby. 466 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 2: Why he didn't do that, he doesn't articulate in the interviews, 467 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 2: but he said he basically had a moment of clarity. 468 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 2: I can use that expression. Had a moment of clarity 469 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 2: at the garage and he decided to go to his 470 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 2: friend's house, John Thompson, a friend who who was no 471 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 2: more friendly than anyone. No one was really friends with Baker. 472 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 2: He didn't really have long friendships. He was an acquaintance 473 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 2: that that you know, if he was knocking on the 474 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: door and you didn't want to see him, you wouldn't 475 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,479 Speaker 2: answer the door, that sort of acquaintance. But he went 476 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 2: to John Thompson's ten o'clock this night, knocked on the door. 477 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 2: It said that John Thompson, I've done it. Done what 478 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: I've done it. I've got them all virtually bragged, but 479 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 2: I've done it. Thompson took him outside, What have you done? 480 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 2: And then he revealed that he's parts of what he'd 481 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 2: done that night, of what who he shot or whatever? 482 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 2: And how did you do it? No, Thompson said, whose 483 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 2: car is that? Because he saw the Masda Kerry Leslie's Masda. 484 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: Thomas said, who's car? That's someone's car. I don't know 485 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 2: who it is. Because he didn't know, Lessie read, I 486 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 2: just took it. Where's the gun, it's in the car. 487 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,239 Speaker 2: He had it in the boot of the car. They 488 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 2: went back inside and he tried to calm him down again. 489 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 2: Baker at the time was quite frantic, quite emotional, quite hyper, 490 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 2: and somehow, for some reason John said let's go to 491 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 2: the police station. And Baker said okay, and John Thomas 492 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 2: said I'll drive. He said, no, I'll take this car. 493 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 2: Thompson was under clear whether Baker was then going to 494 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 2: scoot off, but as we know in the book, he 495 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 2: followed John Thompson to the police station. 496 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: Can I just stop you there? 497 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: Ted? 498 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: Like, I know, he did go to the police station. 499 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: But I just want to, first of all, thank you 500 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: for articulating that. I've been silent because he took me 501 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: right into it. Just the brutality of what was inflicted 502 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: that night is unforgettable. Yeah, it is unforgetable. I just 503 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 1: want to before we carry on about what happens when 504 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: he got to the police station. I'm curious because and 505 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: I think this is the copying me. When that type 506 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: of stuff is going down, the radio is going bizarre, 507 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: people are getting called out, left, right and center. You've 508 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: got to shoot her on the run. That's just going 509 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 1: and killing people. And no one at that particular point 510 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: in time had an expectation that's going to hand himself 511 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: into a police station. So you got called out that 512 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: night he did, ye, explain your role and explain the 513 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: chaos of the night when that type of thing happens, 514 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: because it's very rare in the policing career that you 515 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: get caught up in that type of chaos when things 516 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: are happening in real time, and that literally you better 517 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: switch on and get your job done because otherwise more 518 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: people are going to be killed. So what was the 519 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 1: pressure and what was the circumstances. 520 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 2: So I was at home off Judy, We've got a 521 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: call from Detective Sergeant Bill Erickson to get to pick 522 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 2: up the A list Steve Potter and raced down to 523 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 2: the crime scene at North Wyl where Bill was waiting 524 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 2: with the other detectives, Senior Comfortable Peter Donaldson. At that point, 525 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 2: while I was en route, Baker had actually headed himself 526 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 2: into the police station. We weren't aware of that because 527 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 2: I was in my private car. When I got to 528 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 2: the scene at North Wyle, two Highway patrol constables were 529 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 2: meeting a log at the gate and on the gate 530 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 2: that they were quite traumatized about it, but they were 531 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 2: quite relieved because they said, oh, they've got him up 532 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 2: until moments before, nobody knew where he was. 533 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: Nobody knew because at that stage before he's handed him 534 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: self in I would imagine the police radio would have 535 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: been going off, tactical police would have been called from 536 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: all over the place, detectives would have been called out, 537 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: and there would have been car circulated if you had 538 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: the description of the car. 539 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: There was a vague description of a car. There was 540 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 2: not a lot of details. It was only subsequent to 541 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 2: him handing himself in the details started to appear. 542 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: He was just a sequence of events on the central case. 543 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: And when we're talking the central case, yeah, this is 544 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: all geographically in the same area and you just got this. 545 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 1: At any point, was he circulated as a shooter before 546 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: he handed himself in? 547 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 2: Okay, they didn't even know that. I mean, it was 548 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 2: an unusual event on that night where when Newcastle Radio 549 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 2: VKG alerted everyone on the channel, no more communications. The 550 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 2: only communications now that anyone's allowed to give is in 551 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 2: relation to this matter. Until it became clear that obviously 552 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: he'd been a. 553 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: Counted and like people went after we've talked for it 554 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 1: or you have explains what's happened. Would be thinking, well, 555 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: is he circulated as wanted that we're looking for him. 556 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: But when you get to a crime scene like that, 557 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: you first you've got to check that the gunman's not 558 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: still there because it could be an ambush, so that 559 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: that takes time. 560 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: That's correct. 561 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: Whether this one's related to that one, you've got to 562 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: wonder whether they're even related. And then when the third 563 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: ones happened that we have just been cha. 564 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 2: I think it was Codrek and I mean I had 565 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 2: a conversation with Bill Erickson at the scene. When they 566 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 2: arrived at the scene with Bill the Peter Don, they 567 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 2: were unsure that that scene wasn't hot with the shooter 568 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 2: active with the shooter, and they approached that with great 569 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 2: trepidation as well, because nobody knew there was no car there, 570 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 2: that Baker's Volvo was parked around the back out of sight. 571 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: It was only when they did a perimeter search of 572 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: the of the premises and tried to secure the premises, 573 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 2: not knowing whether there was a shooter inside, that they 574 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 2: saw the car. There wasn't enough time for police to 575 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: connect the dots of what Chris Gore was saying when 576 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 2: he's making those handwritten messages in Garter at Terrygill about 577 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: Malcolm Baker Volvo great cream colored Volvo. That information wouldn't 578 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: have resonated to the uniform police and the detectives at 579 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 2: Terrrigill at that point, because Chris Gore was the only. 580 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: One that could only survive it was. 581 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: The only one who could tell anybody anything about it. 582 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,239 Speaker 2: Subsequent when the police turned up at Sherwood Close and 583 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 2: they managed to speak to Michelle Cooper, she would give 584 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 2: a version of events, still not been able to identify 585 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: Baker as the shooter because she didn't see him or 586 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 2: hearing the sea his car, but a witness saw the 587 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 2: car driving away. Subsequent to that, that witness identified the car. 588 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 2: That timeline to that has extended to the point Baker's 589 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 2: already gaunted to north Woong, He's already killed Ross Smith 590 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 2: and Leslie Reed, he's already driven to Dyleson and he's 591 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 2: contemplating his future. It was only those two little bits 592 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 2: of evidence that at those two crime scenes that would 593 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 2: have identified him, which made it even harder for police 594 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: across the coast to know who they're looking for. 595 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: Okay, you've been called out, you're in your private car, 596 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: you get to the crime scene. By that stage you 597 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: notified that the shoe that has handed himself in, So 598 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: you're looking at the crime scene. What's got to be done? 599 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: There talk us through the crime scene. Explain what you 600 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: saw and what you did there. 601 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it was the starkest memory I have of 602 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 2: it is when I walked up to the porch and 603 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: spoke to Bill Ericson and Peter Donaldson. You could still 604 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 2: smell the gunpowder. You can still smell that smell in 605 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: the air because it was a small house. Bill gave us, 606 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: Steve Potter and I strict instructions about the managing the 607 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 2: crime scene. Obviously, now this was going to be a 608 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 2: big media event. Bill had told me it only just 609 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 2: found out about Baker heading himself in and Bill Bill 610 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: let Bill had. Bill felt an obligation to Leslie Read, 611 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 2: who was still alive, and she was transported from the 612 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 2: crime scene in a hospital to Gosford Hospital. Bill felt 613 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 2: an obligation to find out about her. He left me 614 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 2: and Potter in charge of the crime scene. He and 615 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 2: Donaldson and drove to the hospital at Wile to try 616 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: and make some contact with Gosper to get the situation 617 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 2: of Leslie Read. Unfortunately, Leslie Reid died very shortly after 618 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: she was admitted to Gospel Hospital from the wounds and 619 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 2: then in the in the In that process, he'd become 620 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 2: aware of Baker henning himself in and he moved to 621 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 2: He then went to Terrogo Police Station. Potter and I 622 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 2: it was a huge thing for both of us. It 623 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 2: was a massive crime scene, the biggest thing we've ever 624 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 2: been thrown. We're given the responsibility by a particular sergeant 625 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 2: to manage this crime scene. Don't let any media in, 626 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 2: don't let You've got witnesses on both sides. Go and 627 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: interview these witnesses. This is before laptops and iPads or whatever, 628 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: so they're all handbook, handbook interviews. Make sure that that 629 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 2: crime scene is intact. So Potter and I did a 630 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 2: perimeter search. We made sure we secured the car, secured 631 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 2: there's a dog at the back. Secured the dog. We 632 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 2: entered the crime scene and we could see that that 633 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 2: the house was quite a disheveled house, but it was 634 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 2: cozy in a sense. The TV was on, there was 635 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 2: a there was a pet cat sleeping on the couch 636 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 2: in front of the TV. We went down the corridor 637 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: towards the back room Ross Smith. You could see you 638 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: could see all the food and the wallet and the 639 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: belt that he'd thrown at Baker. You could see the 640 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: empty cartridges on the floor. Unfortunately, Ross was in the bath. 641 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 2: He slumped over the bath like that. The Supreme Court 642 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 2: judge mentions it, mentions it. There's the famous painting of 643 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 2: a man who's died in a bath whose arms slunk 644 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 2: over the edge. I can't remember the name of it, 645 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 2: but it was quite weird for the Supreme Court judge 646 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: to do that. But he was slumped over at the 647 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 2: edge of the bath with his brain matter on the floor, 648 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 2: completely dead. 649 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: Just on the personal thing, like and we're cops, so 650 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: we've all been to these horrific crime scenes. But it's 651 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: not very nice. Is that the smell? You forget you're 652 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: seeing bits and pieces of body parts. You shouldn't see 653 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: a shotgun blast of the head. I would imagine you 654 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: looking at pieces of the skull and the brain. 655 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 2: It was all over the place. So it was. It was. 656 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 2: It was my first experience with firearms, serious firearms injuries. 657 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 2: Been to a lot of hangings and stabbings and you've 658 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: seen a lot of dead people at that point, but 659 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 2: never the power and the effect of that on an 660 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 2: individual was unforgettable. I'll never I'll never forget it. Cannet 661 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 2: just talking about it now. I can still smell it. 662 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: You can still you know you've been to crime since. 663 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: You can still smell that. The smell of death or 664 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. 665 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: It's got a particular smell. 666 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 2: It has a particular smell. It's not like a moorg 667 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 2: it's different to a morgue, but it's it is. 668 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: Than the unforgettable, the blood and the blood and the bath. 669 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 2: And but the bath was full of blood. And you know, 670 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 2: as I said, Brain met on the floor the piece 671 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 2: of skull. And I didn't know at that time that 672 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 2: Ross had been shot in the chest. It was only 673 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 2: after when, with hours and hours later, when the crime 674 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: soon had been recorded, that that I helped the government 675 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: contractors lift Ross out of the and when we picked 676 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 2: him up, we could see the ward of that shell 677 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: had been bedded in his chest. That wouldn't have killed him, 678 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 2: That would have messed him up, but wouldn't have killed him. 679 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 2: And then then we walked into the back bedroom and 680 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 2: you could seal the trail of blood where Leslie had been. 681 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 2: You could see all up the wall where parts of 682 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 2: Leslie's arm and shoulder would sprayed up the war from 683 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,959 Speaker 2: the shotgun, and you could seal the trail of blood 684 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 2: where she crawled into the bedroom, and then obviously all 685 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 2: the ambulance refused that was there, but they tried to 686 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 2: save her on the floor before they took her to 687 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 2: the hospital. And then and then we secured the crime scene. 688 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 2: And then it was just a long list of the videographers, 689 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 2: crime scene experts, commanding police with some authority, all wanted 690 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 2: to come and check out the crime scene. I did 691 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 2: a walk through with one of the victims to make 692 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 2: sure what they told us in the statement was true 693 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 2: or accurate to their recollections. And then yeah, we're seventeen hours, 694 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 2: fifteen hours later, we managed to extract from the bath. 695 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:07,280 Speaker 1: And all this and people probably don't understand we've talked 696 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: this through. We'll talk about what was said when you 697 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: went to the police station handed himself in. But you 698 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: think like it's a laid down is that as in, 699 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 1: you've caught the person or you've got the person, but 700 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: there is still so much work. 701 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 2: You've got to convict him. 702 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: You've you've got to convict him, you've got to present everything, 703 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: you've got to gather the evidence, and yeah, there's so 704 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: much work to do there. I'm just I'm sitting here 705 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: talking about hearing you talk about that just brings me 706 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: back to those days of so much to the so 707 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,240 Speaker 1: much to do with that. You had three crime scenes 708 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: on a huge scale. It would have been a long, 709 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: long and attire in twenty four hours. 710 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,439 Speaker 2: It was for pretty much everyone on the central coast. 711 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 2: We had three, three or four patrols local areas la 712 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 2: c's whatever they were called at the time. And you 713 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 2: know there was a lot of police involved and a 714 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 2: lot of police were adversely affected by day over time 715 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 2: and yeah, it was, it was. 716 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: It was pretty Did you did you stay on the 717 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: strike force like the investigation. 718 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: Yeah we did. We were with Newcastle Homicide Squad through 719 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 2: Garth Christian and Scott Casey came and led the investigation. 720 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 2: After the initial interview because Bill, Bill, Bill Erickson and 721 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:20,919 Speaker 2: Donaldson went to the police station. 722 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: What was it, let's let's go, let's go police take 723 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,280 Speaker 1: to the police station. So he's handed himself, Well, he's. 724 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 2: Walked up the stairs at Tukeley Plice station with John 725 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 2: Thompson and John there was a there was an amazing 726 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 2: uniform sergeant there called Ronnie Beard who ron did thirty 727 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 2: years in Redfern was basically come to the Central Coast 728 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 2: to retire. And Ron was on the counter this night 729 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 2: at Tukeley. Nothing nothing raddles Ronnie Beard and Ron saw 730 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 2: Baker was covered in body matter down his legs and whatever. 731 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 2: They had a conversation. Ron straight away took him into 732 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 2: the room, got him a cup of tea or a 733 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 2: cup of coffee or whatever, and then sat down with 734 00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 2: him and asked him and made a handwritten contemporarious of 735 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 2: what Baker's version of events were. In the introim, Bill 736 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 2: Erickson's turned up, had a conversation with Ron and they've 737 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,760 Speaker 2: have got other police to go and get the gun secured, 738 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 2: the firearm which is still in the car and the 739 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 2: band of there and then right Bill Erickson and Peter 740 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,359 Speaker 2: Donaldson have had a conversation with Baker to make sure 741 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 2: that Baker would sign. And John Thompson witnessed Ron Ron 742 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 2: Beard's contemporary snakes because if Baker said nothing else over 743 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 2: the course of the investigation, that was the most important admissions. 744 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 2: Basically something we did talk at nauseum because of his 745 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 2: ego down the track as we talked about, but that 746 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 2: that the precience of of of of the sergeant on 747 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 2: the desk on that night. To do to get that 748 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 2: admission in writing and signed was you know, was. 749 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: Was well, it's with all all that happens, you've got 750 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 1: to get that admission and get that admission. That's right, 751 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: the earliest opportunity, especially when they're talking and then yeah, 752 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: they might have a change of change. 753 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 2: Said not have said another word, not said another word, 754 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 2: and if you hadn't said another word, that's the ad mission. 755 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 2: You go. You know, you're thinking about, well, this is 756 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 2: going to go to a hearing matter, it's going to 757 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 2: go to a full jury matter in a supreme court. 758 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 2: You need to dit every eye across everybody. He's got 759 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 2: to prove, got to prove everything. 760 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: So just in summary, he did. He did the interview 761 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: with the detectives and then there was another it was 762 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: electronic recorded interviews. 763 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 2: There was any Garth Christian and Scott Casey from the 764 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 2: homicide decided to take him to Gosford. Gossip was the 765 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 2: head station. 766 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: This is when they're just for people listening. This is 767 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: just around the time when they're starting to bring in 768 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: their electronic recording of suspects. That's right in the police station. 769 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: That's not every police station had. 770 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 2: Not everyone toually did have one, but I think it was. 771 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 2: It was quite clever of Garth and Scott to want 772 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 2: to take him to the bigger stations where it could 773 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,879 Speaker 2: have been booked into custody, though obvious thinking about making 774 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaker 2: sure they get everything right procedurally and procedurally everything was covered. 775 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 2: They had a Garth had a conversation with Baker in 776 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 2: the car between Tukeley and Gosford, which was also quite insightful, 777 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 2: but obviously there was not conversation that was recorded. Garth 778 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 2: would have made it contemporarious note of it. But when 779 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 2: he went to Gosford he was he presented as someone 780 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 2: who was quite defeated. He did exhausted the venom, he'd 781 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 2: exhausted the hate, he'd exhausted the passion to kill, and 782 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 2: he was quite a hollow man at Gospeld Police station 783 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 2: and so that procedure they booked him in and whatever 784 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 2: thing because it was getting quite late in the night 785 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 2: and Garth and Scott's case as good detectives were getting 786 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 2: information from the three crime scenes during. 787 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: The course of the evening, during the course yeah, during 788 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: the course of. 789 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,359 Speaker 2: The evening, they were relying on just what Baker was saying, 790 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 2: they were relying on the crime scene evidence and whatever, 791 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 2: and they did the initial e respue of you at 792 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 2: some time early in the morning of the twenty eighth. 793 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: And one thing that you get the admissions, but one 794 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: thing you'd also want to demonstrate that he was of 795 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: sound mind absolutely at that point in time. 796 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that that was a theme of the first question, 797 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,240 Speaker 2: the first interview with Garth and Scott, and it became 798 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 2: a recurring theme when the Chief of the Detective Homicide 799 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 2: Lance Chaffei, reinterviewed him earlier in the morning after he 800 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,720 Speaker 2: went to court, because that was that was the obvious defense. 801 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 2: We didn't have to hunt this bloke down. We didn't. 802 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 2: You know, there's no there's no he's making admissions. He's 803 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 2: headed himself in. Clearly he's going to run a mental 804 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 2: health defense. So they asked the questions about are you intoxicated, 805 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,240 Speaker 2: so you hadn't hadn't had a drink, your stone cul sober? 806 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,800 Speaker 2: Are you on meds? Yes, he was on juicyne or valium. 807 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 2: Had you taken any day, hadn't taken any any today? 808 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 2: The blood tests that they took of him on custody 809 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,399 Speaker 2: confirmed that he was stone cul Saber had no drugs in. 810 00:40:54,360 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: His body, so negating any mitigating circumstance, any possible. 811 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 2: Any possible mitigating circumstances, clarified any issues around mental health 812 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 2: or whatever mental health physical issues he had and mental 813 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 2: health that issues he had, and it was all unremarkable. 814 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,720 Speaker 1: Okay, well, that's good to know. What were the overview 815 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: of what he said. Did he just try to justify 816 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,359 Speaker 1: his answers to the questions that were put to him 817 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: what his actions were, or do he say why did it? 818 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 2: He'd always played the victim. It was always someone else's fault, 819 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 2: like in the line of questioning, which is just covered 820 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,800 Speaker 2: in the book in terms of great detail with the interviews, 821 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 2: But it was never his fault. I was wrong. They 822 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 2: did me wrong. I was virtually entitled to do this. 823 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,280 Speaker 2: That nobody nobody believed me. Nobody. He actually brags about 824 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,920 Speaker 2: the fact that nobody believed him, that I told him 825 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 2: I'd do this. It was their fault. Doesn't get angry, 826 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 2: doesn't get frustrated. He just just tells it as he 827 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,720 Speaker 2: feels it. And the questioning in both interviews was obviously 828 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 2: very professional and unprovocative and elicited the type of answers 829 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 2: that were required to get him to a conviction. 830 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: How did the play out in court? 831 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 2: So he initially was yeah, he initially went to Gostard 832 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 2: Court in that morning of the twenty eighth. There it 833 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 2: was a huge crowd there. It was a big media event. 834 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 2: Some of the victims families were there and it became 835 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,399 Speaker 2: as you see now on TV. Maybe not so much 836 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,959 Speaker 2: these days, but in those days, you know, the mob 837 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,799 Speaker 2: was there, the TV was there, whatever. So he was 838 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,840 Speaker 2: a completely defeated, shallow man, hollow man in court. People 839 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 2: had to be ejective from court because they were threatening 840 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 2: to kill him and swearing at him. But so he 841 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 2: had the bail hearing refused. Bail was taken to Long Bay. 842 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 2: Then he had a number of bail hearings. He's officially 843 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 2: bar refused again or in December nineteen ninety two. He 844 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 2: had a paper committal at the Gosford Local Court on 845 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 2: the twin of December where it was flagged by the 846 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 2: defense that he was going to look for diminished responsibility 847 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 2: which at the time was available to him, which is 848 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 2: not available now. He ended up in the Newcastle Supreme 849 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 2: Court on the third of March where they were preparing 850 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 2: to go ahead with a trial. Evidence about his psychiatric 851 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 2: condition other evidence from social workers was tendered. On the 852 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 2: second of August, when they were going to commence the 853 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 2: trial before a jury was impanelled, He's decided to enter 854 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 2: a guilty plea. Over the next four days, a variety 855 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 2: of witnesses were allowed to give evidence, and on the 856 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 2: sixth of August in the Newcastle Supreme Court he was 857 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:49,399 Speaker 2: convicted and given life a life sentence. On the third 858 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 2: of September ninety ninety five, he appealed to the new 859 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 2: South Wales Supreme Court on conviction on the sentence that 860 00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 2: the sentence was too harsh. That appeal failed. On the 861 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,800 Speaker 2: ninth of the ninth nineteen ninety six, he appealed to 862 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 2: the High Court for leave to appeal. There was a 863 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 2: twenty minute hearing and that was denied. 864 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad the court's got that one right. 865 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,239 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, there was a two to one decision in 866 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court, so there was one judge who had 867 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,279 Speaker 2: a view about the harshness of the sentencing. But what 868 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 2: was interesting about that when you read that was that 869 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 2: there was this issue about because it was truth in sentencing. 870 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:26,880 Speaker 2: I think that the state. The government had pushed all 871 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 2: that through, so there wasn't too many of these cases 872 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 2: that were people getting life for these type of murders. 873 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:37,319 Speaker 2: And one of the justices said the New South Wales 874 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 2: Supreme Court had a view that he was not sentenced 875 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 2: as it wasn't a safe sentence. Was the other two disagreed? 876 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's why sometimes I get confused with court. Yeah, 877 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,920 Speaker 1: what society do we have that someone that goes on 878 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,360 Speaker 1: the murderous rampage like that has any right to have freedom? 879 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. But it makes a point though, when 880 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,360 Speaker 2: you and I have been in lots of court cases 881 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,080 Speaker 2: and lots of jury trials and whatever, and the law 882 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,759 Speaker 2: is so labyrinthine, there's so many avenues, there's so many 883 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 2: ways to get around. A thinks you've just got to 884 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,240 Speaker 2: make sure that you tick every box to keep every 885 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 2: box legally. You've got all the case law, you've got 886 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 2: all of the High Court decisions or whatever, and you've 887 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 2: got to just have That's why I admire the judges 888 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:25,399 Speaker 2: so much. 889 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:30,799 Speaker 1: I like them too in that they absorb and they're 890 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,359 Speaker 1: they're they're smart, they're clearly smart. I just always think 891 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: that the justice system when it's all said and done, 892 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:39,759 Speaker 1: is there to serve the community, and. 893 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,479 Speaker 2: It doesn't always get it right here and that that's 894 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 2: the thing. 895 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,760 Speaker 1: And I worry sometimes with the legal fraternity hide around 896 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: the technicalities and they're very smart the way they exploit 897 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:55,400 Speaker 1: them or control things because of the the rules and 898 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 1: regulations and the legislation that's in place that we all 899 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: agree is needed. But sometimes the courts have got to 900 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,319 Speaker 1: serve serve the community that they're set up to serve. 901 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 2: They do know, having worked in child sexual site for 902 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:09,320 Speaker 2: a lot of years and sat in a lot of 903 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,239 Speaker 2: jury trials and the issues of trying to get a 904 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 2: conviction of a pedophile. Who's the only witness I've got 905 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 2: is the victim and it happened twenty years ago or whatever. 906 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,879 Speaker 2: There's no crime scene, there's no physical evidence, there's one 907 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,400 Speaker 2: word against another, and there's about thirteen or fourteen different 908 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,279 Speaker 2: escape routes through the New South Wales evidence that before 909 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 2: any evidence even gets in. It was quite frustrating. So 910 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,480 Speaker 2: I took the winds. Yeah, well that's. 911 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:40,280 Speaker 1: Probably why you look so relaxed with this one. What's 912 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 1: he's passed away now? 913 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? So he was. He resisted all sorts of psychiatric treatment. 914 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,320 Speaker 2: They to try to give him ant psychotic drugs and whatever. 915 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 2: So in June twenty four he was moved from the 916 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 2: super max at Goldbin. Suffering from cancer, he went to 917 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,840 Speaker 2: the Long Bay Hospital for palliative care. He died handcuffed 918 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 2: to bed on Saturday, the twenty second of June twenty 919 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,319 Speaker 2: twenty four. And the world's a better place. He spent 920 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 2: thirty two years taxpayer's expense. Yeah. 921 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: I look, when we talk about crimes like this, but 922 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 1: you know, for each murder, the ramifications, it spreads more 923 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:23,840 Speaker 1: than just one person. That's all the people connected to 924 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,400 Speaker 1: and the flow on damage and all that. You're talking 925 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: six people's lives taken in one night because of one 926 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,759 Speaker 1: man's rage. And what can you talk about the aftermath 927 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,799 Speaker 1: of the victims. Of you you've got any sense of 928 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,719 Speaker 1: how it's like it's wiping it virtually wiped out a 929 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,560 Speaker 1: family or a large portion of the family, the impact 930 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,560 Speaker 1: that this crime has had on the people. 931 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 2: I was very fortunate subsequent to his death to be 932 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,600 Speaker 2: able to people reached out to me, and I spoke 933 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,760 Speaker 2: to three of the victims. So I spoke to Paul Martin, 934 00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 2: who was the police officer who's the de fact defiance 935 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:05,680 Speaker 2: say of Lisa Gannon and his life. He didn't stay. 936 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,799 Speaker 2: He dedicated, tried to dedicate his life to being a 937 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,799 Speaker 2: better policeman subsequent to the murders, but it didn't pan 938 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 2: out for that much longer, and he's had he's had 939 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 2: a real struggle for the rest of his life, the 940 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,840 Speaker 2: last thirty years to come to terms with what happened. 941 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,759 Speaker 2: He's done a variety of jobs, been a fossica, worked 942 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:32,360 Speaker 2: for the United Nations, being quite involved himself in a 943 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,920 Speaker 2: high stress lifestyle, high stress occupation, to the point now 944 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:40,759 Speaker 2: where he's content in a relationship, living in Victoria, doing 945 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,400 Speaker 2: a bit of foster king and got a job and 946 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:49,120 Speaker 2: was quite amenable to me talking to him about the story. 947 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:54,840 Speaker 2: Still has has a memory or a part of the 948 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,319 Speaker 2: child that they lost. They still he still reflects on that. 949 00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 2: So I met him, I spoke to him. I spoke 950 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 2: to Scool, who was obviously the boy shot in the face, 951 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,799 Speaker 2: lost half his face, and he similarly had had a 952 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 2: very very rough life style and is still struggling even 953 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 2: thirty two years later. Chris, Chris was very generous in 954 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,319 Speaker 2: talking to me. Chris was I was very moved and 955 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,000 Speaker 2: humbled to be able to talk to Chris about his experience, 956 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,440 Speaker 2: and he gave me some insight into his version of events. 957 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,280 Speaker 2: And the third person I spoke to was Michelle Cooper, 958 00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,560 Speaker 2: who was in the house when David Baker was shot 959 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:31,800 Speaker 2: at the back. And Michelle has moved on with a life, 960 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,920 Speaker 2: got a new family, still reflects on that night, still 961 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:41,200 Speaker 2: emotionally affected by that night, but she has a very upbeat, 962 00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,879 Speaker 2: positive view of the view of life and was very 963 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:45,880 Speaker 2: very happy to talk to me. And again I was 964 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,600 Speaker 2: very humble and respected, respectful to talk to her as well. 965 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,120 Speaker 2: So there's three of the people that I had. It 966 00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 2: was quite interesting because when I finished the book, I 967 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,680 Speaker 2: had a real moral dilemma because there's a lot of 968 00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 2: people in this there's a lot of people's lives. Who 969 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 2: am I? What right have I. 970 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:02,759 Speaker 1: Got to tell this? 971 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,719 Speaker 2: This is my passion project, this is my therapy, this 972 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,239 Speaker 2: is my movement on from whatever? Who was I? So 973 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,160 Speaker 2: when I first self published the book, I didn't I 974 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:14,880 Speaker 2: just kept it in house. I gave it to my 975 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,520 Speaker 2: family and friends because I was very proud of it. 976 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,399 Speaker 2: It was only after I had the opportunity to speak 977 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,839 Speaker 2: to those people and get their consent in a way 978 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,720 Speaker 2: that I was able to set the book free and 979 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,719 Speaker 2: you know it's available on Amazon and I sell it. 980 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,760 Speaker 2: So it been able to relate to the people involved 981 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:39,959 Speaker 2: firsthand and as a policeman, made me feel respectful, gave 982 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:44,960 Speaker 2: me permission per se to be here today. Like in hindsight, 983 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 2: if I hadn't spoken to those those three and hadn't 984 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,920 Speaker 2: felt enabled by them, I may not have been comfortable 985 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 2: doing this. 986 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,719 Speaker 1: I understand that, and full credit to you that you 987 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,680 Speaker 1: look at it from that way, because it is such 988 00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,120 Speaker 1: a difficult subject. I look at this. You're telling the 989 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 1: story like you've done today and on this platform. I 990 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,640 Speaker 1: think it's not glorifying crime. This is chrime and we've 991 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,120 Speaker 1: seen it. Crime's horrendous and the flow on the fact 992 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,120 Speaker 1: and the ramifications. But what it does is show people, 993 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,240 Speaker 1: you know, when we talk about the gun control laws 994 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: after Port Arthur and the shit that happens over in 995 00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,120 Speaker 1: America and that we're fortunate that doesn't happen here. The 996 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,880 Speaker 1: laws that they are bringing in for domestic violence, the 997 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:32,080 Speaker 1: focus on domestic violence, coercive controls and all that. Those 998 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,239 Speaker 1: that might argue and they don't think there's many in 999 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,560 Speaker 1: this day and age those that might argue against that 1000 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,920 Speaker 1: sort of control. This is the type of shit that 1001 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:43,680 Speaker 1: can happen when things aren't aren't easily happen. So I 1002 00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,479 Speaker 1: think what you've done today, and I hope what we're 1003 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,920 Speaker 1: doing here talking about it is explaining this is the 1004 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,200 Speaker 1: reason we need to go hard on these things and 1005 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,960 Speaker 1: these people that are controlling people and breaching AVOs and 1006 00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:57,759 Speaker 1: all that we need to crack down on them because 1007 00:51:57,800 --> 00:51:59,359 Speaker 1: this is a potential ramatic. 1008 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,000 Speaker 2: Case asolutely and we see it, we see it happening. 1009 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,520 Speaker 2: We do see it happening. So I dedicated the book 1010 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,400 Speaker 2: to all the victims of domestic violence. I don't just 1011 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 2: say female victims. There are they're they're both sides of 1012 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:11,880 Speaker 2: the equation. It's just the majority of female. But they 1013 00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,280 Speaker 2: dedicated to all the victims. And the last little monologue 1014 00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,800 Speaker 2: I have at the end, you know, just ask the 1015 00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,480 Speaker 2: question why. You know why? And I hoped if I 1016 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:23,920 Speaker 2: have a goal about out of this book was one 1017 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,840 Speaker 2: to my own help, my own recovery, but two that 1018 00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:28,799 Speaker 2: there might be someone that picks this up at an 1019 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,560 Speaker 2: airport and reads it and a potential offender. You go, no, 1020 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:33,360 Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that. 1021 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:34,120 Speaker 1: I don't want to be that. 1022 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,560 Speaker 2: I don't want to do that. Or there's there's potential 1023 00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:41,480 Speaker 2: victims now who are suffering for coercive control and in 1024 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,920 Speaker 2: this situation, and they'll see how it happened and that 1025 00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:45,880 Speaker 2: they can reach out and speak out if it happens 1026 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 2: to one person. Well, I mean. 1027 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,280 Speaker 1: I think it's a I think it's a good messaging 1028 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,919 Speaker 1: those crime scenes they are confronting. Did it have an 1029 00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:56,279 Speaker 1: impact on you seeing that? 1030 00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,839 Speaker 2: I certainly had a delayed delayed in paper, because that's 1031 00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:03,280 Speaker 2: the time, as you know, being a detective and investigating 1032 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,520 Speaker 2: big matters, you're actually in it. You're in the zone. 1033 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,680 Speaker 2: Like it's all about the work. It's all about making 1034 00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,279 Speaker 2: sure that you're right, everybody's right, making sure that you 1035 00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,000 Speaker 2: don't make any mistakes, making sure that you follow the 1036 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:18,000 Speaker 2: bureaucracy or the paperwork of it. So you don't feel 1037 00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:22,000 Speaker 2: anything until until it's til it's till it's over. So 1038 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,840 Speaker 2: I was still quite high for days and days and 1039 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 2: days after that, and then Garth and Garth Christian and 1040 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,160 Speaker 2: Scott Casey from the homicide squad came back to the 1041 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,200 Speaker 2: Central Coast and we all we met and we all 1042 00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:34,920 Speaker 2: had we were all given tasks to go out and 1043 00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,160 Speaker 2: interview these people and find it. So the crime scene 1044 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,319 Speaker 2: itself didn't The effect of the crime scene of me 1045 00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:46,319 Speaker 2: initially was negligent in that I was still busy, were 1046 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,799 Speaker 2: still on the job, We're still doing the investigation. It 1047 00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:54,040 Speaker 2: was only after the matter. Actually, I can remember the 1048 00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:59,400 Speaker 2: day we were given the four volume brief of evidence 1049 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,000 Speaker 2: and I had this moment at why on police station 1050 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,920 Speaker 2: and I had these four volumes brief of evidence, which 1051 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:08,479 Speaker 2: is the one I carried around with me for thirty 1052 00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:13,160 Speaker 2: years in my hand that I thought, I got emotional 1053 00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,560 Speaker 2: that I reflect and I actually didn't want to look 1054 00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,600 Speaker 2: at it, like the vanity was, so go to your part, 1055 00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,920 Speaker 2: go to the part see your name in lights, you know. 1056 00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:23,480 Speaker 2: And I didn't want to look at it, and I 1057 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:24,960 Speaker 2: didn't want to look at it, but I kept it. 1058 00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,399 Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying there with the confronting crime scene. 1059 00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:32,120 Speaker 1: Some people would often ask myself, how do you react 1060 00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,000 Speaker 1: to that? I really take on board what you're saying. 1061 00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,160 Speaker 1: You're focusing so much on the work that you do, 1062 00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,560 Speaker 1: you just you've got the blinkers on in terms of 1063 00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,080 Speaker 1: I've got a job to do. Focus on that, and 1064 00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,720 Speaker 1: it might be ages down the track where you reflect 1065 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:47,239 Speaker 1: on it, or when you have a quiet time and 1066 00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:48,680 Speaker 1: you go, yeah, that was pretty bad. 1067 00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you do, you do, and it does come back 1068 00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:52,480 Speaker 2: and slap you in a face like a wet fish. 1069 00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:53,879 Speaker 2: There's no doubt about that. 1070 00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,560 Speaker 1: Now you're looking after yourself. And it was good catching 1071 00:54:57,640 --> 00:54:59,799 Speaker 1: up with Peter that I hadn't seen for a long 1072 00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:01,640 Speaker 1: time over and you both, I've got to say, you 1073 00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,719 Speaker 1: both look very relaxed, and you're having a bit of 1074 00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,160 Speaker 1: fun touring on motorbikes and yes, living the good life. 1075 00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,520 Speaker 1: Tell us through what you're doing. Now, let's finish on 1076 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:11,839 Speaker 1: the high because it's been a heavy staf. 1077 00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:13,880 Speaker 2: It has been a heavy and I really appreciate the 1078 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,200 Speaker 2: opportunity to let me talk. Gary, really do. But Peter 1079 00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,879 Speaker 2: and I fell in love in the job. We met 1080 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,759 Speaker 2: in the job, and we should never have fallen in love, 1081 00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,640 Speaker 2: but we fell in love in the job and moved 1082 00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,280 Speaker 2: to the country and got married and had a beautiful 1083 00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:30,560 Speaker 2: child who's got a degree in criminology. Oddly enough, but 1084 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,960 Speaker 2: Peter's always been into horses and I've always been into surfing, 1085 00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,200 Speaker 2: and eventually we moved back to Newcastle because when I 1086 00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,160 Speaker 2: got sick and had to leave, I needed to be 1087 00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:42,880 Speaker 2: a safe place. So Peter and I moved back to 1088 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,840 Speaker 2: Newcastle where I grew up, and I reconnected with my 1089 00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,440 Speaker 2: primary school friends, one of whom I'm about to ride 1090 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,759 Speaker 2: a motorbike around New Zealand with and we've known each 1091 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,759 Speaker 2: other for sixty years. So when I moved back to 1092 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,880 Speaker 2: Newcastle to recover, we did and we had a lovely 1093 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,520 Speaker 2: lifestyle there. Peter resigned retired from the cop as well, 1094 00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:06,319 Speaker 2: and then the Newcastle lifestyle is very different to anywhere else. 1095 00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:08,120 Speaker 2: It's hard to explain if you don't. 1096 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,360 Speaker 1: Live you're a Newcastle person or you're not a newcast. 1097 00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,400 Speaker 1: They talking about I'm not sure if that's a compliment 1098 00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:15,239 Speaker 1: or an insult, but. 1099 00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,200 Speaker 2: They talk about in the job the Newcastle Police was 1100 00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,040 Speaker 2: because if you go to new Gum, they don't get 1101 00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:19,359 Speaker 2: out of there. 1102 00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:20,879 Speaker 1: We've seen a lot of police up there and they've 1103 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:21,400 Speaker 1: never come back. 1104 00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,640 Speaker 2: They've never come back. It's like the triangle of police. 1105 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:28,799 Speaker 2: But over time we've just our daughter's grown up and 1106 00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:33,000 Speaker 2: we've recovered from our illness, our mental illness, and happily 1107 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,439 Speaker 2: in love and we decided to move to the North 1108 00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,600 Speaker 2: Coast to be with Peter's mother, and I started writing 1109 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,680 Speaker 2: an adventure motorbike a couple of years ago with my 1110 00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:42,960 Speaker 2: friends from Newcastle and just fell in love with it. 1111 00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:47,880 Speaker 2: The feeling of meditation, feeling of RESTful, being RESTful and 1112 00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:51,279 Speaker 2: peace that I feel on an adventure motorbike. They go 1113 00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:53,440 Speaker 2: on raid, but they go on dirt as well. And 1114 00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,160 Speaker 2: I managed to talk Peter into getting a little one 1115 00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,840 Speaker 2: and as you've got a little bit bigger one, and 1116 00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,440 Speaker 2: I've just bought her a Murdoguzzy V eighty five t 1117 00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,240 Speaker 2: t travel, which is her feet can't touch the ground, 1118 00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:09,000 Speaker 2: but she's learning. So we do day trips away and 1119 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:12,200 Speaker 2: go and stay up and up around northern New South Wales. 1120 00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:16,280 Speaker 2: I ride with my mates, still surf. My daughter's about 1121 00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 2: to return to Newcastle and start a law degree jurist doctrip, 1122 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,560 Speaker 2: which I'm very proud of. So yeah, we're very We're 1123 00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:23,440 Speaker 2: in a very good place. 1124 00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,120 Speaker 1: Life's going good. Yes, Okay, well we'll put in a 1125 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:29,680 Speaker 1: little advert for joining the cops. You're fine, love have 1126 00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,560 Speaker 1: an interesting career and end up riding motorbikes around with 1127 00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:35,840 Speaker 1: the Woman of the Dreams. Yeah, well that's pretty good. 1128 00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,040 Speaker 2: Well, it's pretty good. Yeah, you know, it's funny how 1129 00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,280 Speaker 2: those things come together. Like the psychiatrists have told us 1130 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,200 Speaker 2: over the years, this is a codependency. This this is sick. 1131 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:45,920 Speaker 2: This will never last. You can dependent on each other, 1132 00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,640 Speaker 2: but it actually works because we know each other. We've 1133 00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:50,880 Speaker 2: did the same we did the same ship, we've seen 1134 00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:51,400 Speaker 2: the same ship. 1135 00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,160 Speaker 1: Well, I know you guys when you got together, and 1136 00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:58,640 Speaker 1: I can see the love hasn't passed out. So well done. 1137 00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,120 Speaker 1: So I appreciate shout out to both of you. Thanks 1138 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,400 Speaker 1: for coming on. I catch Gillers. I've enjoyed the catch 1139 00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:07,080 Speaker 1: up and the chat, and it's important getting that messaging 1140 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,400 Speaker 1: out there. So thanks very much, Thanks very much, Gery, 1141 00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:10,960 Speaker 1: good luck to you and good luck in the future. 1142 00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:11,600 Speaker 2: Cheers. 1143 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,720 Speaker 1: It's always good catching up with ex colleagues. I enjoyed 1144 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:22,080 Speaker 1: chatting with Ted and so heavy subject that we were 1145 00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,640 Speaker 1: talking about the murder of six people. I hope people 1146 00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,640 Speaker 1: listening appreciate the gravity of what can occur when domestic 1147 00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:32,560 Speaker 1: violence is not checked and gun control is not kept 1148 00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:36,439 Speaker 1: in place. Six innocent people were murdered on one night 1149 00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:39,560 Speaker 1: because of one man's rage. It's such an important lesson 1150 00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,200 Speaker 1: to learn, and my thoughts go out to the people 1151 00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:44,320 Speaker 1: who lost their lives because of just one man.