WEBVTT - Credlin | 24 September 0:00:02.450 --> 0:00:07.060 Peter Credlin, live from News 24. 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:10.400 Good evening. Welcome to the program. Here's what's coming up 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:13.780 on Credlin. A data breach that happened months ago. A 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.440 prime minister that was told about it on the weekend. 0:00:16.980 --> 0:00:19.700 The poor old Australians only found out about it today. 0:00:20.180 --> 0:00:24.370 So time to reinstate the AI expert panel the prime 0:00:24.410 --> 0:00:27.430 minister dumped. We'll talk to one of the men on 0:00:27.470 --> 0:00:30.730 that panel in a moment. Yet more warnings about rent 0:00:30.750 --> 0:00:34.979 increases driven by Labor's tax hikes amid fears more Australians 0:00:35.020 --> 0:00:38.250 will end up in social housing as properties up for 0:00:38.290 --> 0:00:41.530 sale languish in a stagnant market. Fears the cost of 0:00:41.550 --> 0:00:45.050 diesel could top $ 4 a litre, as farmers warn they 0:00:45.070 --> 0:00:49.540 can't absorb another financial hit, nor too can the trucking sector. 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.960 And never mind today's crime stats revealing a shoplifting epidemic 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:56.800 in Victoria, the Premier now wants to throw open the 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.290 doors to the pub until 3am. 0:01:00.270 --> 0:01:02.810 We're going to make sure, as an automatic right, the 0:01:02.850 --> 0:01:07.959 pubs can open to 3am. Today it's about supporting small businesses. 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:12.780 They're in the heart of every community, pubs, publicans, more 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:17.000 patrons means more jobs and a great local thriving economy. 0:01:19.270 --> 0:01:22.750 They call it bread and circuses in campaign times. That 0:01:22.870 --> 0:01:27.430 is what that is. First, revelations today that multiple Australian 0:01:27.470 --> 0:01:31.800 government systems were infiltrated by a leading US artificial intelligence 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:36.590 company called OpenAI and should surprise no one. 0:01:37.390 --> 0:01:41.300 This incident occurred in June this year and involved an 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:47.560 open AI agent gaining unauthorised access into the public-facing Medicare 0:01:47.620 --> 0:01:50.110 Statistics Reporting Service portal. 0:01:52.230 --> 0:01:55.390 And no surprises. After all, the Albanese government's far more 0:01:55.430 --> 0:01:58.610 concerned with censoring what you can access on the internet 0:01:59.050 --> 0:02:02.160 than it is with protecting the sensitive information it holds online. 0:02:02.500 --> 0:02:04.760 and keeps safe from compromise. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.620 I note that the Prime Minister gave a keynote speech 0:02:08.940 --> 0:02:12.330 back in July on AI. He made a big song 0:02:12.370 --> 0:02:15.890 and dance about it. He did not even mention cyber 0:02:15.910 --> 0:02:22.170 defence and the importance of defence against AI attacks on 0:02:22.250 --> 0:02:25.330 our critical systems. He didn't mention it. It wasn't even 0:02:25.410 --> 0:02:27.930 part of his speech. Now we need better than that 0:02:27.970 --> 0:02:29.870 from this Prime Minister and we need better than that 0:02:30.030 --> 0:02:30.810 from his ministers. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.110 Later in the program, we'll speak with Professor Toby Walsh, 0:02:36.669 --> 0:02:40.730 one of Australia's foremost AI experts, to understand exactly what 0:02:40.810 --> 0:02:44.090 went wrong here and what should happen now to get 0:02:44.130 --> 0:02:48.450 ahead of the AI risks. But know this, Professor Walsh 0:02:48.490 --> 0:02:50.830 was appointed by the Prime Minister to join an expert 0:02:51.030 --> 0:02:54.730 AI panel to advise government about all of these very 0:02:54.770 --> 0:02:58.750 important cyber issues. It was an unpaid role that he 0:02:58.810 --> 0:03:01.770 thought was ongoing, a role he agreed to do because 0:03:01.810 --> 0:03:06.120 he cares about his country. Instead, the Prime Minister disbanded 0:03:06.180 --> 0:03:10.550 his own AI expert panel after only a couple of months. 0:03:11.169 --> 0:03:15.900 Without experts advising the Albanese government, Australia's flying blind as 0:03:15.940 --> 0:03:18.700 the rest of the world moves fast in the arms 0:03:18.820 --> 0:03:22.690 race of AI. And we are falling behind because of 0:03:22.770 --> 0:03:27.669 sheer incompetence, ignorance and likely lack of funding to put 0:03:27.710 --> 0:03:34.090 in place the cybersecurity architecture that Australia must have. That's because, yes, 0:03:34.220 --> 0:03:36.940 AI is a powerful tool for good, but there are 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:41.100 also very real and significant risks. We know it will 0:03:41.180 --> 0:03:45.380 transform business. It'll reform productivity. But that will come at 0:03:45.420 --> 0:03:48.760 the cost of jobs as well as deliver economic gains. 0:03:49.100 --> 0:03:51.160 So we need to have our eyes wide open on 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:54.770 all of this. As with the Industrial Revolution, we can 0:03:54.890 --> 0:03:58.770 probably now make a good fist at modelling the commercial 0:03:58.810 --> 0:04:02.590 gains from AI. But that's not where I'm focused. What's 0:04:02.670 --> 0:04:06.790 always concerned me here is the military and national security 0:04:06.830 --> 0:04:10.740 applications of AI. What happens when a rogue state or 0:04:10.780 --> 0:04:14.140 a terror group uses AI to create a deadly new 0:04:14.380 --> 0:04:18.240 biological weapon? Or perhaps a new explosive that can bring 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:23.680 down aircraft that's not detectable when carried through airport security screening? 0:04:24.490 --> 0:04:27.469 Right now, the only real AI debate that Albanese is 0:04:27.529 --> 0:04:31.030 having is data centres and whether or not they use 0:04:31.110 --> 0:04:35.289 renewable power. I mean, overseas, they're laughing at us, trying 0:04:35.310 --> 0:04:38.380 to power AI with wind and solar and while they 0:04:38.540 --> 0:04:43.190 use our uranium to power high-end new reactors or our 0:04:43.270 --> 0:04:46.950 coal and gas, ensuring they have reliable baseload to run 0:04:47.010 --> 0:04:50.710 their AI, why we just muddle along, caught between a 0:04:50.750 --> 0:04:52.810 rock and a hard place, saying we're all for AI 0:04:53.150 --> 0:04:57.440 and net zero, when clearly you can't have both. It's 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:01.560 critical that voters are not fooled here, because there's no 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:05.020 doubt that Albanese wants to try and conflate the issue 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:09.190 of AI safety And this example today of the Medicare 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:13.420 hack is real with his digital duty of care legislation, 0:05:14.060 --> 0:05:19.060 but they are two very different things. AI safety and 0:05:19.100 --> 0:05:23.840 a properly resourced cybersecurity apparatus in Australia involving our spy 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.700 and military intelligence agencies is a good thing. And in 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.760 broad terms, I'd also support some sort of global guardrails 0:05:32.100 --> 0:05:37.170 provided they are sensible and limited. But they can't constrain 0:05:37.330 --> 0:05:41.950 good countries like Australia from developing as we must, given 0:05:41.970 --> 0:05:46.730 that bad actors will ignore all rules anyway. But Labor's 0:05:46.790 --> 0:05:50.170 digital duty of care legislation is not about any of this. 0:05:51.089 --> 0:05:56.050 Digital duty of care is about censorship. It's about restricting 0:05:56.150 --> 0:06:00.490 or stopping the information that adults can access, the information 0:06:00.730 --> 0:06:04.560 they get on their devices. And this was precisely what 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:09.100 the Prime Minister admitted himself in comments yesterday at the 0:06:09.140 --> 0:06:10.040 United Nations. 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.180 The truth is this is having an impact on our 0:06:14.220 --> 0:06:20.050 entire society and how it functions with misinformation, disinformation, with 0:06:20.060 --> 0:06:24.330 the increased polarisation that we're seeing as well in the 0:06:24.390 --> 0:06:29.010 political system where people are moving away from the centre 0:06:29.110 --> 0:06:31.450 and more and more to the extremes, be they of 0:06:31.490 --> 0:06:32.470 the left or the right. 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:38.510 That line there about misinformation, disinformation, about the left and 0:06:38.529 --> 0:06:42.230 the right of politics is a killer. It shows Albanese's 0:06:42.410 --> 0:06:46.010 true motivation here. And the fact that the Prime Minister's 0:06:46.050 --> 0:06:50.380 office took those references out of his media transcript to 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.719 try and stop us from noticing what he said, says 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:56.400 it all. Something that Sarah Henderson was quick to pick 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.160 up when speaking with me here last night. 0:07:00.330 --> 0:07:03.030 That speech that he gave today, they've now removed that 0:07:03.190 --> 0:07:08.430 damning extraordinary section from the transcript on the Prime Minister's 0:07:08.510 --> 0:07:13.210 media website. So talk about disinformation on the Prime Minister's 0:07:13.290 --> 0:07:13.970 own website. 0:07:15.790 --> 0:07:20.190 Yes, sensible regulation about the architecture of AI should be 0:07:20.210 --> 0:07:23.990 looked at with the caveat that, as always with Labor, 0:07:24.350 --> 0:07:28.480 the devil's in the detail. But banning content under yet 0:07:29.020 --> 0:07:33.080 to be defined definitions of harm at the whim of 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:38.560 Labor's communications minister, Annika Wells, well, that must be opposed. 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.850 The real story here is that the minister has unfettered 0:07:42.900 --> 0:07:47.150 powers to decide any category of harm that should be 0:07:47.590 --> 0:07:50.090 shut down. It is all about shutting down what people 0:07:50.110 --> 0:07:53.690 can say and see online. It's all about shutting down 0:07:53.750 --> 0:07:55.450 the political opponents of Labor. 0:07:56.990 --> 0:08:00.730 Don't buy the Albanese government's BS here. This is not 0:08:00.770 --> 0:08:05.040 about keeping children safe online. There are already a myriad 0:08:05.060 --> 0:08:07.800 of laws to do this now. Laws to ban kids 0:08:07.860 --> 0:08:11.420 under 16 from social media. Laws to deal with online 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:16.420 child exploitation, child pornography. Laws against things like enabling acts 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.630 of terrorism, like bomb making. Or as we saw yesterday 0:08:20.910 --> 0:08:24.850 with the arrest of Mohamed Bakhit, laws against the alleged 0:08:24.910 --> 0:08:29.410 membership of Islamic terror organisations and the spreading of online propaganda. 0:08:29.890 --> 0:08:33.080 We already have all of these laws. Now, if they're 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:36.060 not tough enough, put them back into the parliament before 0:08:36.100 --> 0:08:39.600 Christmas and make them tougher. But we cannot allow the 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:43.700 Albanese government to use these issues as cover to shut 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.969 down legitimate debates that they don't want to have to 0:08:47.590 --> 0:08:51.070 stop you finding out the truth or to stop the media, 0:08:51.090 --> 0:08:54.670 at least some of the media, from holding the Prime 0:08:54.690 --> 0:08:59.700 Minister and his government to account. Labor's petrified at the 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:04.600 way the online world has democratised information access. And the 0:09:04.620 --> 0:09:07.720 left blames online media for the rise of One Nation, 0:09:08.100 --> 0:09:12.510 for Trump and for reform in the United Kingdom as well. Now, 0:09:12.550 --> 0:09:15.590 for a long time, the left had a pretty cosy 0:09:15.690 --> 0:09:20.050 cartel with media players like the ABC that basically ran 0:09:20.110 --> 0:09:24.079 paid advertising for Labor and the left. Well, not so anymore, 0:09:24.100 --> 0:09:27.400 as people have turned away from news sources like that 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.760 and pick up their devices and go digging on their own. Now, 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:35.540 what that's done is it's exposed Labor's slick spin machine 0:09:35.860 --> 0:09:39.220 for what it is, and record low approval polls for 0:09:39.260 --> 0:09:44.170 the Prime Minister are the result. This is why Labor 0:09:44.410 --> 0:09:49.050 are panicking. That's why Albanese wants the whole show shut down. 0:09:49.510 --> 0:09:52.939 It's got nothing to do with children, It's about censorship 0:09:53.100 --> 0:09:55.839 and power. The other point I want to make in 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:59.350 relation to the hack being put into the media domain 0:09:59.410 --> 0:10:02.360 today is the fact that the Prime Minister was told 0:10:02.540 --> 0:10:07.540 about this open AI break into Medicare on the weekend. 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:12.579 Only you were told today. So why keep it a 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:16.380 secret for much of the week? I'd say it's got 0:10:16.420 --> 0:10:19.819 a lot to do with this ridiculous award he picked 0:10:19.900 --> 0:10:23.520 up in New York overnight as some sort of international 0:10:23.580 --> 0:10:28.970 statesman when at home, clearly, he's a laughingstock. Labor hardheads 0:10:28.990 --> 0:10:32.210 would have thought, gee, this award comes at a shocking 0:10:32.250 --> 0:10:35.890 time for the government. Those appalling polls on Monday, the 0:10:35.950 --> 0:10:39.250 threat of a rate rise next week. Reports today too 0:10:39.290 --> 0:10:43.109 that diesel fuel will be rationed, some predicting it could 0:10:43.170 --> 0:10:46.420 hit as high as $ 4 a litre. So what better 0:10:46.460 --> 0:10:49.040 way to get the award off the front pages and 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:52.480 for all the mocking to stop, but to throw out 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:57.500 this story of a government systems hack. What's also telling 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.059 is the fact the hack occurred back in June. It 0:11:00.100 --> 0:11:04.860 was only uncovered because the company fessed up. Our security 0:11:04.900 --> 0:11:07.739 systems in Canberra, they didn't pick it up. We only 0:11:07.820 --> 0:11:11.040 know about it because the company emailed the bureaucrats to 0:11:11.090 --> 0:11:13.710 tell them what had happened and And the Prime Minister 0:11:13.730 --> 0:11:17.130 then held off making this information public until he needed 0:11:17.490 --> 0:11:22.530 a distraction. What a joke. Now, I'll say this again. 0:11:22.550 --> 0:11:25.469 I don't think I've ever met, ever seen a more 0:11:25.710 --> 0:11:30.020 underwhelming individual occupy the highest office in this country. He's 0:11:30.100 --> 0:11:33.900 out of touch. He's intellectually out of his depth. And 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:38.939 he lacks character. And there isn't a worse political trifecta 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:46.130 than that. All right, let's get the headlines. That and 0:11:46.170 --> 0:11:48.540 more with our political reporter, Ruben Spargo. 0:11:49.700 --> 0:11:52.559 Good evening. The Australian government is launching a task force 0:11:52.580 --> 0:11:56.460 to counter AI cyber threats after a rogue open AI 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:00.140 agent hacked into Medicare data. The rapid review will help 0:12:00.179 --> 0:12:03.720 determine whether current arrangements are fit for purpose to prepare 0:12:03.780 --> 0:12:09.179 for and respond to incidents. This is an unintended access, 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:13.160 that's clear, but it definitely does raise questions about whether 0:12:13.580 --> 0:12:16.180 The law has been broken in respect of this. The 0:12:16.220 --> 0:12:19.340 opposition is calling for the Australian Signals Directorate's funding to 0:12:19.380 --> 0:12:21.579 be increased to better detect threats. 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:24.780 We need to be significantly scaling up and upgrading our 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:26.840 cyber defences and actually. 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.820 The best tools to do that are artificial intelligence tools. 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.739 One of the government's major concerns is the technology is 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.900 moving so quickly it is outpacing Australia's ability to respond. 0:12:37.540 --> 0:12:41.600 The coalition is vowing to dismantle Labor's renewables policy if 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.590 it wins the next election. A bill would be introduced 0:12:44.610 --> 0:12:47.550 to Parliament to remove the legislated target of net zero 0:12:47.590 --> 0:12:52.090 by 2050 and the safeguard mechanism designed to limit industry emissions. 0:12:52.670 --> 0:12:56.290 You can subsidise our industrial base to keep jobs onshore 0:12:56.370 --> 0:12:59.890 and pursue a renewables-only approach, as Labor is doing, or 0:12:59.910 --> 0:13:02.710 you can actually use the resources that are under our 0:13:02.750 --> 0:13:05.630 very feet that have made us a rich and wealthy nation. 0:13:06.030 --> 0:13:09.220 The plan would also scrap vehicle emission standards and shift 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:12.500 the Australian energy regulator's focus to affordability. 0:13:14.350 --> 0:13:17.130 All right, let's get into that more. News24 contributor Carolee 0:13:17.150 --> 0:13:21.320 Katzenbarnes back with us after a pretty rugged few months 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.760 and Deputy Executive Director at the IPA, Dan Wild. Carolee, 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.420 as I said, you've been here on the program, I 0:13:27.460 --> 0:13:29.400 should say, but you've had a lot going on at home. 0:13:29.980 --> 0:13:32.059 You lost your beautiful husband, Peter. We gave him a 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:36.120 terrific send-off on Friday, so we're delighted to have you 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:38.040 back in the chair, mate. It's so good to have 0:13:38.070 --> 0:13:40.969 you here. Let's start with the AI data breach. A 0:13:41.010 --> 0:13:44.050 few points I want to note here. This happened in June, 0:13:44.390 --> 0:13:47.690 PM told on the weekend, but we only learn about 0:13:47.730 --> 0:13:51.150 it today. The notification about the breach didn't come from 0:13:51.170 --> 0:13:53.270 the government, it came from the company, and they had 0:13:53.309 --> 0:13:58.100 to email a public access point or an email box 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.910 to tell us what was happening. I'll speak to an 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.360 expert in a moment about what you can do now 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:09.130 to turn this around. Surely, Dan... Labor needs that panel 0:14:09.170 --> 0:14:11.870 of experts to be rapidly reinstated. 0:14:14.010 --> 0:14:14.870 Well, that's right, Peter. 0:14:14.890 --> 0:14:18.210 There's a couple of things here for me. Firstly, the 0:14:18.270 --> 0:14:20.730 timing of it, as you alluded to in your monologue, 0:14:21.190 --> 0:14:25.840 has coincided with providing some space for Anthony Albanese's award. 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.520 And now because things are going sour, as you know 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:32.080 from your experience in politics, they keep these things in 0:14:32.100 --> 0:14:34.410 their back pocket. and roll it out when they want 0:14:34.430 --> 0:14:37.150 to change the topic of discussion in the news. Now, 0:14:37.190 --> 0:14:40.470 I know that sounds cynical, but unfortunately, that's often why. 0:14:41.010 --> 0:14:43.230 People at home wonder, why is this just coming out now? 0:14:43.690 --> 0:14:45.490 This is often the reason why. There's a very strong 0:14:45.530 --> 0:14:48.310 political reason for it. The other thing also, as you 0:14:48.330 --> 0:14:51.030 alluded to, was the government has taken its eye off 0:14:51.710 --> 0:14:54.470 the ball. When it comes to the internet, when it 0:14:54.530 --> 0:14:57.270 comes to the online world, they are not focused on 0:14:57.330 --> 0:15:02.370 things like AI security. They are focused on government censorship 0:15:02.730 --> 0:15:07.130 of Australians through their digital duty of care legislation. So 0:15:07.410 --> 0:15:09.489 this is a government that is not focused on the 0:15:09.530 --> 0:15:12.890 things that matter to our national interest. The other thing 0:15:12.940 --> 0:15:15.480 I would be very interested in, Peter, is why was 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.580 that task force that you mentioned, why was it disbanded, 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.100 I wonder? Was it disbanded because they were providing advice 0:15:22.140 --> 0:15:24.620 to the Prime Minister or to his ministers or senior 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:28.020 advisers that was inconvenient and they did not want to hear? 0:15:28.350 --> 0:15:29.670 I wonder if that was one of the reasons. 0:15:31.580 --> 0:15:33.660 Well, we'll ask one of those experts in a moment. 0:15:34.850 --> 0:15:36.380 My point at the top of the show there about 0:15:36.420 --> 0:15:41.870 this conflation by the government between appropriate, and I'm saying appropriate, 0:15:41.890 --> 0:15:45.510 I don't want big regulation, but appropriate regulation of the 0:15:45.710 --> 0:15:50.110 AI environment, and then Labor's try-on with this digital duty 0:15:50.150 --> 0:15:51.990 of care, trying to put the two things together when 0:15:52.030 --> 0:15:56.890 I argue they're very, very different, Kerri-Lee. The debate about censorship, 0:15:57.050 --> 0:16:00.130 if we don't have sufficient laws to We've already got 0:16:00.170 --> 0:16:03.140 a range of mechanisms that we can improve. But this 0:16:03.180 --> 0:16:06.700 is about stopping Australians getting information that will send the 0:16:06.740 --> 0:16:11.640 Prime Minister's personal rating even lower. This is an election strategy. 0:16:12.140 --> 0:16:15.040 It's not about keeping people safe or children safe online 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:17.560 at all. It's not. 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.720 And Australians are being gaslit once again by Anthony Albanese 0:16:20.740 --> 0:16:23.520 in the Albanese government. I mean, the digital duty of care, 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:27.160 it's nothing more than just a political censorship bill. And 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:31.900 he's preying on the fears of parents and other caregivers. 0:16:32.300 --> 0:16:35.240 And as you say, conflating the two together. This is 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:39.590 an extraordinary attack on free speech for Australians, but it's 0:16:39.750 --> 0:16:44.590 also extraordinary that this would give the communications minister completely 0:16:44.810 --> 0:16:49.210 unfettered power without a parliamentary oversight as to what they 0:16:49.250 --> 0:16:51.880 deem to be harmful and what they don't. And I 0:16:51.910 --> 0:16:53.740 think it's a bit rich of him to do this. 0:16:53.780 --> 0:16:57.430 And as Sarah Henderson pointed out last night, It's just extraordinary. 0:16:57.470 --> 0:17:01.130 But the problem is he is relying on merging the 0:17:01.170 --> 0:17:03.750 two together so that people don't know what will happen. 0:17:03.850 --> 0:17:06.300 But it's really good that you're pointing it out, because 0:17:06.340 --> 0:17:08.280 the more that we can point out to the Australian 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.780 people that the digital duty of care is completely different 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.899 to AI regulation, the better that it will be. And 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.080 it's like communist China. This is not what should be 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:20.850 happening in a Western democracy like Australia. 0:17:22.570 --> 0:17:24.929 They tried, didn't they, Dan, during the voice debate to 0:17:25.010 --> 0:17:27.790 shut us down. I know they tried the IPA to 0:17:27.830 --> 0:17:30.470 get you offline. They certainly tried a number of times 0:17:30.530 --> 0:17:34.560 with Bea about the Uluru Statement of the Heart. But 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:39.419 this would succeed, that sort of move would succeed second 0:17:39.460 --> 0:17:42.200 time around if they had this legislation in place. 0:17:44.180 --> 0:17:44.760 Yeah, that's right. 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.780 This is a really good point because, as I mentioned 0:17:47.859 --> 0:17:49.880 the other week or the week before, this is really 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.570 the third crack that the government has had. at trying 0:17:52.590 --> 0:17:55.590 to do this. They had the misinformation laws back in 2024. 0:17:55.590 --> 0:17:58.650 They had a crack at some hate speech laws earlier 0:17:58.690 --> 0:18:00.540 this year. Now they're having another crack at it now. 0:18:01.020 --> 0:18:03.740 Ever since they lost the voice to Parliament debate, this 0:18:03.780 --> 0:18:06.840 government has convinced itself that what they need to do, 0:18:06.940 --> 0:18:09.200 rather than explaining to people, right, this is the thing 0:18:09.220 --> 0:18:11.870 about this government, it has never won an argument with 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.609 the Australian people. It doesn't take its policies to the 0:18:14.670 --> 0:18:18.590 people and try to convince them of the legitimacy of 0:18:18.630 --> 0:18:21.040 those policies. What it does is it either just shoves 0:18:21.060 --> 0:18:23.660 it through Parliament and guillotines debate, or it just tries 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.620 to censor debate and not have a debate whatsoever. So this, 0:18:26.820 --> 0:18:29.609 and you'll remember after the voice vote, what did Albanese 0:18:29.619 --> 0:18:33.310 and the chief campaigners blame? They blamed misinformation. Either you 0:18:33.350 --> 0:18:36.169 voted no because you're too dumb or you voted no 0:18:36.190 --> 0:18:39.170 because you're a racist, right? That is how this government thinks. 0:18:39.330 --> 0:18:41.270 They don't understand. People voted no because they thought it 0:18:41.290 --> 0:18:43.470 was a bad idea and they didn't want it. So, yeah, 0:18:43.490 --> 0:18:45.430 the government's going to try and push ahead with censorship 0:18:45.530 --> 0:18:48.540 and it would have a massively negative effect on our 0:18:48.580 --> 0:18:50.619 ability to to debate things in this country. 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.300 Let's go to this report today that the Australian Energy 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:59.980 Market Operator, AEMO, the regulator, is basically, they've got a 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:04.780 plan to put the $ 50 million cost of EV charger 0:19:04.900 --> 0:19:09.610 rollout onto everyone's power bill across the country, whether you 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.830 want an EV charger, whether you have an EV charger 0:19:13.010 --> 0:19:15.850 or not. Kerri-Lee, how can this be justified? We can't 0:19:15.890 --> 0:19:19.800 pay our bills as it is. Well, it's incredibly unfair. 0:19:19.820 --> 0:19:22.780 And I noticed that Anna Collier, who's the chair of 0:19:22.820 --> 0:19:26.149 the Australian Energy Market Commission, she's actually said that it 0:19:26.170 --> 0:19:30.490 would add $ 1 a year to people's power bills, average 0:19:30.550 --> 0:19:34.109 power bills. This is another example of gaslighting. We had 0:19:34.130 --> 0:19:36.429 this when they introduced the negative gearing things in the 0:19:36.470 --> 0:19:39.530 budget where they said rents would only rise by $ 2 0:19:39.070 --> 0:19:39.490 a week. 0:19:39.590 --> 0:19:40.470 That hasn't worked. 0:19:40.850 --> 0:19:44.030 This is appalling. I mean, this should be an industry thing. 0:19:44.210 --> 0:19:47.550 It is being run by private enterprise. They're putting their money, 0:19:47.570 --> 0:19:49.310 they're putting their things on. 0:19:49.270 --> 0:19:49.949 The line to do. 0:19:50.060 --> 0:19:54.240 This. To actually slug the Australian taxpayer, because about $ 20 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:58.190 billion worth is needed for proper infrastructure, is just not fair. 0:19:58.330 --> 0:20:01.850 Australian consumers will be at a disadvantage. And the problem 0:20:01.910 --> 0:20:05.470 is this all ties into Chris Bowen's energy plans, etc. 0:20:05.510 --> 0:20:08.409 They just cannot accept They cannot accept that they have 0:20:08.450 --> 0:20:11.730 not invested properly into infrastructure and now they want to 0:20:11.750 --> 0:20:15.159 slug the Australian taxpayer with more. I'm really sorry for 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.100 Anna Collier to say it would add an extra $ 1 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.899 a year to the average Australian's power bill is an 0:20:20.980 --> 0:20:25.540 absolute insult. Poles and wires companies are monopoly and monopolies 0:20:25.660 --> 0:20:27.760 and we will all be paying the price for that. 0:20:28.140 --> 0:20:29.680 It's absolutely appalling. 0:20:31.340 --> 0:20:33.740 Dan, a quick one for you. Master Builders today issued 0:20:33.780 --> 0:20:36.480 a warning that rent increases are driving inflation. These are 0:20:36.500 --> 0:20:38.200 the ones out of the budget on the back of 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.159 those tax hikes that are moving the rents, obviously. But 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:44.159 those rent increases will send more people out of renting 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:48.310 properties into social housing. We know, of course, the clearance 0:20:48.369 --> 0:20:52.290 rates on the weekend are very, very sluggish. In August, 0:20:52.330 --> 0:20:56.450 Sydney was at a six-year low in terms of, you know, 0:20:56.550 --> 0:20:59.080 how long properties were sitting there on the market and selling. 0:21:00.250 --> 0:21:02.350 It begs the question, I can't get a straight answer 0:21:02.390 --> 0:21:06.390 out of anyone in Canberra. What actually is the definition 0:21:06.410 --> 0:21:11.129 of social housing? Is this housing that we're subsidising as taxpayers? 0:21:11.190 --> 0:21:13.610 Talk me through what the truth is here. 0:21:15.310 --> 0:21:17.410 Well, in essence, yes, that's what it is. We now 0:21:17.450 --> 0:21:19.949 have almost a million Australians who are in social housing 0:21:19.990 --> 0:21:23.260 of some kind. Now, two-thirds roughly of that is in 0:21:23.300 --> 0:21:26.720 housing that is directly run and operated by the government itself. 0:21:27.330 --> 0:21:29.969 A few percent is in relation to Indigenous and then 0:21:30.010 --> 0:21:34.070 about 25 to 30 percent is through community organisations, many 0:21:34.090 --> 0:21:36.380 of whom receive government funding as well. So, yes, most 0:21:36.420 --> 0:21:38.859 of this is taxpayer funded housing that's then rented off 0:21:39.380 --> 0:21:42.520 to people who can't afford or can't find a rental property. Now, 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:45.679 this is one of the great untold stories of the 0:21:45.740 --> 0:21:49.020 failure of this government's migration and housing programs, which is 0:21:49.060 --> 0:21:51.720 that there's many people who need social housing. If it 0:21:51.740 --> 0:21:54.000 weren't for social housing, they'd be on the street. But 0:21:54.020 --> 0:21:56.480 there's many people who have been forced into social housing 0:21:56.790 --> 0:21:59.590 because they literally cannot get a rental property. They just 0:21:59.650 --> 0:22:01.350 can't get one. So they have to stay with their 0:22:01.369 --> 0:22:04.290 parents or their grandparents or do whatever they have to do. 0:22:04.690 --> 0:22:06.550 Or if they don't have that support available, they've got 0:22:06.570 --> 0:22:08.770 to go into a social house. So this is what 0:22:08.830 --> 0:22:11.580 happens when you have a massive surge in demand that 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.379 we've had from mass migration coupled with a complete failure 0:22:14.420 --> 0:22:14.940 of supply. 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:16.260 And on top of that, as. 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:18.900 You rightly say, these tax changes mean that fewer people 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:22.179 are investing, rents go up even more. So Look, unfortunately, 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:24.460 more people are going to find themselves in this situation. 0:22:26.140 --> 0:22:28.300 And it just grows the state. It makes us ever 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:31.900 more reliant on government, which is not what we want 0:22:31.940 --> 0:22:33.710 in a country like Australia. Thank you to you both. 0:22:33.869 --> 0:22:36.230 As I said, Kerri-Lee, great to have you back. All right, 0:22:36.250 --> 0:22:38.530 let's go now to the breach today. Let's bring in 0:22:38.550 --> 0:22:42.550 a professional to unpick it for us now, Chief Scientist 0:22:42.590 --> 0:22:46.450 at the University of New South Wales AI Institute, Professor 0:22:46.510 --> 0:22:50.560 Toby Walsh. Professor, I've been waiting for you all day 0:22:50.660 --> 0:22:54.080 because there's so much chatter around and half of it 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:58.310 doesn't add up to the next person who speaks. What happened? 0:22:58.330 --> 0:23:01.750 What have we learnt today about this breach? 0:23:03.570 --> 0:23:06.810 Well, the government got another lucky break here. Fortunately, it 0:23:06.850 --> 0:23:10.030 turned out it wasn't particularly serious. We didn't lose too 0:23:10.050 --> 0:23:13.490 much sensitive information here. But it shows that these companies 0:23:13.530 --> 0:23:16.689 need much better oversight, independent oversight from the government that 0:23:16.710 --> 0:23:17.190 they're not getting. 0:23:19.390 --> 0:23:22.690 So the PM, when he spoke about it, basically said 0:23:22.830 --> 0:23:27.119 that this was a front-facing information portal, so there was 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:30.660 nothing there other than basically statistics. But it was behind, 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:33.540 if I could call it, a firewall or some sort 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:37.640 of security mechanism. Obviously, it was breached. It wasn't just 0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:42.139