Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Something to Talk About the Stella Podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm sarah La marquind your host, and every week I
Speaker 1: sit down with some of the biggest names in the country.
Speaker 1: Because when celebrities are ready to talk, they come to
Speaker 1: Something to talk about. It's easy to assume Glennan Doyle
Speaker 1: has all the answers, but over the past two years
Speaker 1: her world has been unraveling. In twenty twenty three, in
Speaker 1: her late forties, she was diagnosed with anorexia. That same year,
Speaker 1: her wife, former US soccer champion Abby Wombach, was grieving
Speaker 1: the sudden loss of her brother, and her sister Amanda,
Speaker 1: was diagnosed with breast cancer. It was the kind of
Speaker 1: year when no one could be the strong one.
Speaker 2: But it felt like I was drownding, and I looked
Speaker 2: over at the shore and both of the lifeguards were
Speaker 2: like passed out.
Speaker 1: You may know. Glennon is the author of Untamed, a
Speaker 1: book that changed or quite ploss saved the lives of
Speaker 1: millions from her podcast We Can Do Hard Things, which
Speaker 1: she co hosts with Abbi and Amanda. Now they've turned
Speaker 1: that space into a book also called We Can Do
Speaker 1: Hard Things, pulling together insights from over one hundred conversations
Speaker 1: with people like Elizabeth Gilbert, Esther Perel, t Rana Burke,
Speaker 1: and Jane Fonder. On today's show, Glennon joins me to
Speaker 1: talk about being confined to the self help pile.
Speaker 2: My books will be in the self help aya. My counterparts,
Speaker 2: men will be in leadership. Okay. Do you ever hear
Speaker 2: a man's work described as self help? No? No, no,
Speaker 2: because men they're good to go.
Speaker 1: How to make peace with your body in a world
Speaker 1: that's always telling women to shrink.
Speaker 2: Just get smaller and smaller and fix yourself before you
Speaker 2: can even approach the world.
Speaker 1: Navigating the messy politics in her home country, and how
Speaker 1: she felt when Avanka Trump recently endorsed one of her books.
Speaker 2: We're the first person to ask me about it. I
Speaker 2: just was stunned.
Speaker 1: And before we begin, a note that this conversation discusses
Speaker 1: disordered eating. If you need support, you can find more
Speaker 1: information in our show notes. Glenn and Doyle, Welcome to
Speaker 1: the Stellar Podcast.
Speaker 2: Thank you Sarah for having me. I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 1: We can do Hard Things is a book that you
Speaker 1: have co written with your wife Abby and your sister Amanda,
Speaker 1: Now of course, the three of you have created a
Speaker 1: very interconnected creative world. You have books, podcasts and incredibly
Speaker 1: strong community the pod squad, all anchored in the truth
Speaker 1: that we can do hard things. And as I say,
Speaker 1: now you've turned this mantra into a book. It seeks
Speaker 1: advice to twenty key life questions. And there are a
Speaker 1: lot of people featured in the book. I believe one
Speaker 1: hundred and eighteen spiritual leaders. There are per actors, artists,
Speaker 1: pop culture icons, just a bit of a role call.
Speaker 1: Includes Hannah Gadsby, fellow Australian Martha Beck, Elizabeth Gilbert, Esther Perell,
Speaker 1: Tarana Burke, Alanas Morrissett, Glenn and I have to ask
Speaker 1: about the logistics of this book. We know it's stella.
Speaker 1: What it's like wrangling high profile people all to be
Speaker 1: in the same space, getting people to respond to questions.
Speaker 1: How on earth did you guys pull this off?
Speaker 2: Wow? Thank you. No one's asked me that question and
Speaker 2: it was very hard. Yes, you know. The beautiful thing
Speaker 2: is that almost all because some of the passages are
Speaker 2: actually from texts between that I got from friends, but
Speaker 2: most of them are from conversations that we had on
Speaker 2: our podcast and we can do hard things. So the
Speaker 2: beauty of it was my team would is just four
Speaker 2: of us for women. We just over time, the conversations
Speaker 2: we had on that podcast really changed, rewired us, rewired
Speaker 2: our minds and hearts and the way we saw the world.
Speaker 2: And as we poured through those conversations, we just realized
Speaker 2: people are really talking about the same twenty questions over
Speaker 2: and over again from their particular slice of life. And
Speaker 2: the beautiful situation was that we already had all the conversations.
Speaker 2: So all I had to do was wrangle all these
Speaker 2: people and say, how about this incredible, brilliant thing you
Speaker 2: said be put in print? And most of them were like, great,
Speaker 2: I sound very smart in that printed. So that part
Speaker 2: was And these people, I mean, as you can see,
Speaker 2: the people in this book, the people that we have
Speaker 2: chosen to have on the podcast are just some of
Speaker 2: the most heart wide, open minded, justice minded, love minded,
Speaker 2: community minded people on the earth. And it just feels like,
Speaker 2: especially I don't know if you've noticed, but we got
Speaker 2: a lot going on in this country right now, it
Speaker 2: really feels like the whole idea of self help and
Speaker 2: individual optimization has failed us. And so what I'm very
Speaker 2: proud of is that this book is about collective wisdom.
Speaker 2: It's about we cannot figure this out by ourselves, that
Speaker 2: we have to look at the world from as many
Speaker 2: different perspective as there are people. And I just think
Speaker 2: that is the power of the book right now. Why
Speaker 2: it's resonating so much here is that it's about collective.
Speaker 2: It's about the collective.
Speaker 1: I was going to actually ask you about that, is that,
Speaker 1: if ever we needed a guidebook for these things, that
Speaker 1: surely is this moment in time globally, but particularly yes
Speaker 1: in your home country of the United States.
Speaker 2: First of all, it's a nightmare here. It's awful. It's we
Speaker 2: are seeing our neighbors be rounded up in front of us.
Speaker 2: I see it with my own eyes all the time.
Speaker 2: We are I was just in children's immigration court watching
Speaker 2: two year olds represent themselves in court having been separated
Speaker 2: from their families. It's it's a nightmare. All of I mean,
Speaker 2: my family and every LGBTQ family I know is terrified.
Speaker 2: Parents with trans kids are leaving if they can. It's
Speaker 2: a really scary time here. We we actually with the
Speaker 2: with this book took we took we did a tour,
Speaker 2: we went, I did not, you know, Sarah, I did
Speaker 2: not want to do that. That's so much leaving of
Speaker 2: my house.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's airports, that's the that's the whole thing.
Speaker 1: You've got flight attendants coming up to you saying, we
Speaker 1: can do hot things.
Speaker 2: Yes, literal stages, not just answering my door on actual stages. Okay.
Speaker 2: But the incredible thing was, I think we have this
Speaker 2: feeling in the States right now. A lot of media
Speaker 2: is being suppressed, and so it feels very much like
Speaker 2: you can feel like the only one who cares, or
Speaker 2: the only one who's afraid or angry or wishes for
Speaker 2: something better. And this tour was so important to me
Speaker 2: because it was just auditoriums and theaters full of people
Speaker 2: who were so hopeful and so angry and so united
Speaker 2: and so beautiful, and that really, I don't know what
Speaker 2: kind of it just gave. You know, they say, hopelessness
Speaker 2: is just the feeling that nobody else cares, that you're alone.
Speaker 2: And so that tour that we did with that we
Speaker 2: can do hard things book, I think reinvigorated a lot
Speaker 2: of us, just reminded us there are still a lot
Speaker 2: of people here who care and who will not stand
Speaker 2: for what's going down right now here.
Speaker 1: Glennon, just since the issue of Paula has come up
Speaker 1: on what's going to ask because you have been somebody
Speaker 1: who has used your platform to advocate for many causes
Speaker 1: close to your heart, and that also involves speaking out
Speaker 1: against the Trump administration, particularly during the November twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four election campaign. Recently, Donald Trump's daughter Avanka Trump posted
Speaker 1: on Instagram and she's holding your memoir Untamed, which I've
Speaker 1: already mentioned, And I really wanted to ask you how
Speaker 1: that feels. How does the moment like that sit with you.
Speaker 2: We are the first person to ask me about it.
Speaker 2: My team said it to me, and I just kind
Speaker 2: of looked. I just was stunned. I just didn't process
Speaker 2: it completely. I can tell you honestly that my best
Speaker 2: guess is she didn't read it all the way through.
Speaker 2: There's an entire essay about her dad in it that
Speaker 2: is about how unbelievable it is that this man is
Speaker 2: being seen as a leader of what is it supposed
Speaker 2: to be Christian nationalis. It's an entire essay about that.
Speaker 2: So I think she probably didn't get all the way through.
Speaker 2: But I guess all I can say is. I hope
Speaker 2: she reads it. I hope she reads it really, really carefully.
Speaker 2: That's what I'll say about that.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, we have spoken about the background of the world
Speaker 1: and particularly your homeland with the release of We Can
Speaker 1: Do Hard Things. But it also was created in the
Speaker 1: backdrop of a very very difficult time for the three
Speaker 1: of you that co wrote this book. Yourself Glennon had
Speaker 1: an anorexia diagnosis, your wife Abby had lost her beloved brother,
Speaker 1: and your wonderful sister Amanda had a breast cancer diagnosis.
Speaker 1: That is a lot. I'd love to ask you a
Speaker 1: little bit of that in terms of, of course of
Speaker 1: creative process watered on taped for the three of you
Speaker 1: individually and collectively in creating this work, but also as
Speaker 1: that close unit. The three of you are so close
Speaker 1: and going through that sort of very different trauma. At
Speaker 1: the same time, the people that you rely on are
Speaker 1: also grappling with stuff.
Speaker 2: When you were saying that, I was thinking, you know
Speaker 2: how you have little friend groups or family groups, or
Speaker 2: a best friend or somebody. I mean, I hope everybody
Speaker 2: has somebody, and we kind of depend on the other
Speaker 2: to like have their shit.
Speaker 1: Together a little bit.
Speaker 2: When we lose ours like you. Just I have never
Speaker 2: had a time. My sister and my wife are my people.
Speaker 2: Those are the ones like I kind of have. I
Speaker 2: don't know. I think maybe because I depend on the
Speaker 2: two of them. I don't actually have as many like
Speaker 2: friends in a wider circle than those two. I depend
Speaker 2: on those two, probably maybe a little bit too much,
Speaker 2: but I am used to that one of them being steady, absolutely,
Speaker 2: And I kind of felt like when I got my
Speaker 2: new anarexia diagnosis. And I have been dealing with eating
Speaker 2: disorder since I was ten, so this is not It
Speaker 2: was just I felt I felt just actually I felt humiliated.
Speaker 2: I think embarrassed is the word I felt the most,
Speaker 2: Just that I could not believe I'm still dealing with this,
Speaker 2: Like do I have to actually tell people? Do? I
Speaker 2: just felt like everyone in my life was going to
Speaker 2: be like get over it. Like that's how I felt.
Speaker 2: But it felt like I was drowning. And I looked
Speaker 2: over at the shore and both of the lifeguards were
Speaker 2: like passed out. That's how I felt. In the moment,
Speaker 2: my lifeguards were also having their own moment, and this
Speaker 2: interesting thing happened than where I don't know if this
Speaker 2: happens to you. But it feels like a very bad
Speaker 2: design of life that when trauma comes, that's the time
Speaker 2: we can't remember anything we know, Like, that's the time
Speaker 2: we can't call up all the wisdom we've learned about
Speaker 2: how to make it through. And that sucks. But I
Speaker 2: have learned that that actually is what happens in trauma.
Speaker 2: Trauma causes this little mini dissociation. I used to just think.
Speaker 2: My family used to call me Dory. I don't know
Speaker 2: if you know Dory from Nemo, where it's like every
Speaker 2: day it's just like here, I am brand now, I
Speaker 2: remember yesterday. Yes, But that is how I felt during
Speaker 2: that time, like I couldn't access anything I knew about
Speaker 2: how to make it through hard times. And unfortunately Abby
Speaker 2: felt the same way, and so did Amanda. So we
Speaker 2: were just kind of staring at each other, blinking, and
Speaker 2: this cool thing happened, which is that I started writing
Speaker 2: down little sentences or quotes or paragraphs that we had
Speaker 2: said to each other on the podcast and sending them
Speaker 2: to my sister to help her through the cancer thing.
Speaker 2: And it was like some of the things were things
Speaker 2: she had said. You know. It's like people would come
Speaker 2: up to me in the grocery store during that time
Speaker 2: and say, oh my god, your books help me through
Speaker 2: so many hard times. And I used to say to them, Sarah,
Speaker 2: can you remember any of the things I said that
Speaker 2: helped you?
Speaker 1: That I write it to me now.
Speaker 2: So then she started writing down things about grief for
Speaker 2: Abby and we had this little file going around. Abby
Speaker 2: started writing things down for me about body, and you
Speaker 2: know how that it became the make how Do I
Speaker 2: Make Peace with My Body? Chapter? So we kept this
Speaker 2: kind of file that we were just using as an
Speaker 2: anchor outside of ourselves. Which is so funny because I've
Speaker 2: spent my entire life telling people that they have all
Speaker 2: the answers inside of them. I'm no longer positive that's true.
Speaker 2: And then a friend, like three months later, my friend
Speaker 2: was going through she was going through this horrible breakup,
Speaker 2: and I sent her on an email the file we
Speaker 2: had about grief and she wrote back and said, Glennon,
Speaker 2: can you just make me this for all the categories
Speaker 2: of life? This is what I need? And I thought, yeah,
Speaker 2: I actually can do that. That's how the book started.
Speaker 1: That's how the book was born. Yeah, and that's great,
Speaker 1: and it really feels like that it feels like you
Speaker 1: are deeping in and out of conversations between these incredibly
Speaker 1: wise people but also very vulnerable and people that are
Speaker 1: just in the middle of it. And there's moments where
Speaker 1: people go, this is just I don't know what to do. Well,
Speaker 1: then there's moments where someone has a realization and the
Speaker 1: other person will say, yes, exactly, that it's great.
Speaker 2: This is what I want to ask you if this
Speaker 2: comes through, because I actually can't stand it when people
Speaker 2: pretend to have all the answers, like I'm allergic to it,
Speaker 2: anybody who is. I don't. This whole genre can feel
Speaker 2: very snake oil salesmany and like five Steps to Enlightenment,
Speaker 2: all this crap that I cannot stand. And so I
Speaker 2: feel like what I needed it to be was not
Speaker 2: people telling you how to walk a path, but like
Speaker 2: people who have been on the path and just showing
Speaker 2: you snapshots, like showing you polaroids of what they've seen
Speaker 2: on the path or what you might see or what
Speaker 2: but that it's not in any way prescriptive.
Speaker 1: That is absolutely how I have experienced a book. So
Speaker 1: I have the hard copy with me for research purposes,
Speaker 1: but I've actually been listening to the audio book, and
Speaker 1: that's why it has that real conversation component, and there
Speaker 1: are parts that are really relevant and resonant to the
Speaker 1: point that you almost can be a bit overwhelmed take
Speaker 1: a moment, and there's other moments that aren't necessarily your experience.
Speaker 1: And obviously this is me responding, but I would imagine
Speaker 1: everyone would have that whatever their own path is, And
Speaker 1: that is exactly it is not this sort of guru
Speaker 1: on the mountaintop. It's lived experience, which I know can
Speaker 1: be an overused word and is a bit of a buzzword,
Speaker 1: but it genuinely is that. And Glennar, I just was
Speaker 1: thinking when you were saying that, how when I was
Speaker 1: doing that Google search on Avanka and those headlines that
Speaker 1: I saw, and one of them described you as self
Speaker 1: help guru, And I thought, I have to ask Glennon
Speaker 1: about that, because having read we Can Do Hard Things,
Speaker 1: I don't imagine that is at all how she would
Speaker 1: self identify, because that is not how this work is reading.
Speaker 2: Sarah, don't get me started on the self help okay, Sarah.
Speaker 2: I have so many male counterparts, okay, who write about
Speaker 2: the same things that I write about, who write about
Speaker 2: power and power dynamics and life and relationships, even and
Speaker 2: politics and community. Do you think that any of them
Speaker 2: are ever labeled self help? My books will be in
Speaker 2: the self help aisle. My counterparts men will be in leadership. Okay,
Speaker 2: do you ever hear a man's work described as self help? No? No, no,
Speaker 2: Because men they're good to go, they just need some
Speaker 2: leadership skills. Women are just a mess and they just
Speaker 2: need help with their little selves. That distinction is it's
Speaker 2: in every area, right, It's like that's the literary version
Speaker 2: or the but even okay, bodies. You know, men are
Speaker 2: taught to.
Speaker 1: Like bulk up, bigger, bigger, bigger.
Speaker 2: And women are taught to get smaller and money. Men
Speaker 2: are taught to invest, women are taught to save. Every
Speaker 2: single category is about men. You're good to go, Just
Speaker 2: get bigger, get bolder, go for it. And women self help.
Speaker 2: You're not even ready to leave the room. Just get
Speaker 2: smaller and smaller and fix yourself before you can even
Speaker 2: approach the world. So yes, I have many issues with
Speaker 2: the self help title, and I think it is a
Speaker 2: has a lot to do with gender.
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable that we're still here in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: And you know what, The whole navelgazing thing is so interesting,
Speaker 2: Like God forbid a man do a little bit of
Speaker 2: self reflection. I would like Cement to look harder at
Speaker 2: their navels. Honestly, I think that would do it all
Speaker 2: a little bit of good.
Speaker 1: Glennar And I love the way that you spoke about
Speaker 1: yourself and Abby and Amanda and everything happening at that
Speaker 1: same time. One of the messages I got from the
Speaker 1: book is almost like resilience and survival is what happens
Speaker 1: when you're making other plans.
Speaker 2: Or when you're making friends. I am not good at that.
Speaker 2: I am very socially anxious. I a solitary person. So
Speaker 2: even doing the I mean as a writer, I go
Speaker 2: into a small room for years. That's and then I
Speaker 2: write about humanity without ever talking to humans. Okay, to
Speaker 2: expose myself constantly on the podcast to other people and
Speaker 2: other and then and then make friends with some of
Speaker 2: them and then organize with some of them. My entire
Speaker 2: it's not comfortable for me, but my entire life has
Speaker 2: changed because of it. And I think my sister and
Speaker 2: I always talk about like we used to just say,
Speaker 2: I don't have enough time for friendship. How do people
Speaker 2: have time for this? How do people have energy for this?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, I get it. It's the friendship
Speaker 2: that gives you energy. It's I think there's something about
Speaker 2: it that is the answer to what we're talking about before,
Speaker 2: to everything that's going on in our country. It's just
Speaker 2: like the individualism and the even our wellness obsession that
Speaker 2: always has to do with just like drinking more smoothies
Speaker 2: and red lighting in your house, and it's like, wait
Speaker 2: a minute, wellness is about collective liberation. Like our wellness,
Speaker 2: we're red lighting and cold plunging while all of our
Speaker 2: bodily autonomy is taken away in the courts, like our
Speaker 2: wellness has to be tied to protests, has to be
Speaker 2: tied to holding hands with each other and being in
Speaker 2: the streets knowing our neighbors, leaving our little gems and
Speaker 2: being embodied. I mean, Sarah, I was doing this the
Speaker 2: first interview I ever did about this book. It was
Speaker 2: a TV show. I was in New York and the
Speaker 2: woman looked at me and said, opened up to the
Speaker 2: chapter that said how do I make peace with my body?
Speaker 2: And she was like, I deal with eating disorders too,
Speaker 2: How do I make peace with my body, and I
Speaker 2: just froze, And what flashed in my mind is all
Speaker 2: of the Americans who are on the streets lined up
Speaker 2: with their bodies protecting their neighbors from ice, who are
Speaker 2: with their bodies in the streets protesting, who are with
Speaker 2: their bodies going into high schools and saying, where's the
Speaker 2: queer alliance? I want to stand with these kids. And
Speaker 2: I thought, oh my God, that that's the way I
Speaker 2: want to look at that question. How do I go
Speaker 2: out into the world and make peace with my body,
Speaker 2: not an individualistic way, but in a way where I
Speaker 2: just like enter into this beautiful energy of people showing
Speaker 2: up for each other and use my body to protect us.
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking about that all the time. In terms
Speaker 2: of where we are in the country right now, it
Speaker 2: feels like I think it's more important than ever for
Speaker 2: all of us because you are all dealing with the
Speaker 2: ramifications of what's going on here. The whole world is
Speaker 2: feeling it. It feels so important that we hold tighter
Speaker 2: than ever to the things that actually make us human,
Speaker 2: to the things that actually make life worth living. Friendship
Speaker 2: and romance and food and dance and art and love,
Speaker 2: and all of it, because that's the fuel, that's what
Speaker 2: keeps us fighting. Because if we don't remember in our
Speaker 2: bodies what makes life worth fighting for them, and we
Speaker 2: give up the fight. So these two things are just
Speaker 2: inextricably linked. And it's very tempting right now to be
Speaker 2: hopeless or to work so hard and forget the joy
Speaker 2: that the best, the best, most powerful activists I know
Speaker 2: are also the most joyful, and that's because they remember
Speaker 2: that that's all part of it. Right. So I do
Speaker 2: think that I'm thinking more than ever about friendship and
Speaker 2: community and softness and love and joy and art and
Speaker 2: all of it. And I want to say even during
Speaker 2: this time, but I think it, I mean, especially during
Speaker 2: this time.
Speaker 1: There were also some really practical, uh, I think experiences
Speaker 1: where it was don't just say to somebody what can
Speaker 1: I do to help? Or I'm here if you need me,
Speaker 1: but actually there were people who had sent list of
Speaker 1: his's what I need. There's real generosity and bravery in
Speaker 1: us asking for help as well as reaching out and
Speaker 1: giving one another help when we need it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so interesting you're saying that, and I'm thinking
Speaker 2: we're all so good at saying I think and then
Speaker 2: saying our opinion. I think that is we live up here.
Speaker 2: We think we can think or hot take our way
Speaker 2: to enlightenment or goodness or but we have a hard
Speaker 2: time saying I need or I want, or I feel
Speaker 2: or I love. I'm trying to get out a little
Speaker 2: bit of all I think blah blah blah, and get
Speaker 2: more in my body and tell my people what I need,
Speaker 2: tell the world what I love, write about what I imagine.
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot and there is such specificity
Speaker 2: to love. And Abby recently was talking about how she's
Speaker 2: in year two after having lost her brother and she's
Speaker 2: noticing that fewer and fewer people are talking about him
Speaker 2: and that's really hard for her. And she told me
Speaker 2: the other day that so many people write to her
Speaker 2: and say I don't know what to say, or I
Speaker 2: can't imagine how hard this is, or text me if
Speaker 2: you need anything, And these are well meaning things to say,
Speaker 2: but they're not helpful, and sometimes they're not they're worse
Speaker 2: than not helpful. They're giving her a job, help me
Speaker 2: if you need anything, I'm so sorry. So then Abby
Speaker 2: has to say to them, well, it's okay, like what
Speaker 2: but she told me the other day that the most
Speaker 2: beautiful thing that people do. She has two friends who
Speaker 2: every once in a while text her a story about
Speaker 2: Peter just out of the blue, will write to her
Speaker 2: and say, I remember when we came over in high
Speaker 2: school when Peter was like, you know, doing a keg
Speaker 2: stand and wouldn't or or like I remember when Peter,
Speaker 2: you know, just these little stories, and I thought, but
Speaker 2: that is I need to tell people that when you
Speaker 2: don't know what to do because someone has lost somebody,
Speaker 2: tell them a story that's giving them a gift as
Speaker 2: opposed to asking them to do something else for you.
Speaker 1: And coming up Glennon on the red Carpet moment that
Speaker 1: prompted her to speak out about the reality of her
Speaker 1: recovery from anorexia. Glennin, I wanted to go back a
Speaker 1: little bit too, something you said earlier when you felt
Speaker 1: embarrassed with your anorexia diagnosis. I remember listening to the
Speaker 1: episode We Can Do Hard Things, where you shared with
Speaker 1: your community the story of your diagnosis.
Speaker 2: When I got that diagnosis, first I didn't believe it
Speaker 2: at all, thought that they were being completely dramatic and ridiculous.
Speaker 2: And then a few days later I was looking. I
Speaker 2: went to look through pictures of me on tour because
Speaker 2: I just on the unteamed tour and I just actually
Speaker 2: saw myself for the first time and was so embarrassed.
Speaker 2: I was on stages talking about freeing ourselves from gender norms,
Speaker 2: and I looked emaciated, and I just I think it's tricky,
Speaker 2: And I've never talked about this publicly, but it's tricky
Speaker 2: to know as a woman whether you're killing it or
Speaker 2: dying because so many of the ideals that are held
Speaker 2: up for us are not healthy, like you know, being
Speaker 2: super skinny, working yourself to death, hustling constantly, all of
Speaker 2: these things that are all connected by the way, this
Speaker 2: like toxic perfectionism that is kind of just a flavor
Speaker 2: I don't know about. I know it's a flavor of
Speaker 2: American white woman culture.
Speaker 1: So I mean Astralia, it's not like, Okay, I.
Speaker 2: Was hoping guys had a different vibe.
Speaker 1: Okay, Unfortunately not I wish Okay.
Speaker 2: So, but do you know what I'm saying of like,
Speaker 2: there's a fine line between she's killing it or she's sick.
Speaker 2: I mean the other day and I would I will
Speaker 2: just tell you I'm not I'm still recovering. Okay, I'll
Speaker 2: say it that way. I tend to when I feel
Speaker 2: I guess i'll just oversimplify this by saying when I
Speaker 2: feel afraid, I tend to be hyper vigilant, and the
Speaker 2: first thing that goes is like food and self care.
Speaker 2: So in this country right now, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: fear and I am not relaxed, and that my eating
Speaker 2: stuff flares up when that happens. But I had to
Speaker 2: do this. I wanted to do this public thing recently,
Speaker 2: which was it was called it was a it was
Speaker 2: an event for queer kids. It was it was a
Speaker 2: glad a word thing, and I really did want to
Speaker 2: talk to my queer family, and so I went to
Speaker 2: a public thing even though I didn't want to. And
Speaker 2: one of the reasons so I didn't want to is
Speaker 2: because whenever I am in an anarexia flair and I
Speaker 2: go out into public, especially at a glamorous event, everyone
Speaker 2: tells me how amazing I look. That's the first thing.
Speaker 2: It's like, oh my god, you look amazing. And I
Speaker 2: didn't want to deal with that in real time because
Speaker 2: it's so confusing. But I had this great moment where
Speaker 2: we were on a red carpet, which is my effing nightmare.
Speaker 2: And this woman walked up and said, oh my god,
Speaker 2: you look amazing. What's your secret? I can tell she like,
Speaker 2: looks down at my ribs. She's clocking my ribs through
Speaker 2: my dress. Not her fault, this is just what we're
Speaker 2: conditioned to do, right. And Abby was standing next to
Speaker 2: me and Sarah. I go, so, my secret is that
Speaker 2: I am very mentally ill. My secret is that I
Speaker 2: have a severe eating disorder called anorexia. It's not amazing,
Speaker 2: it's illness. And I just want to tell you this
Speaker 2: because she had a kip, she had the microphone in
Speaker 2: my face. I just want to tell you this because
Speaker 2: there's lots of reasons for eating disorders and women, but
Speaker 2: one of the reasons is that since we're little, this
Speaker 2: idea just gets hammered into us that the smaller we are,
Speaker 2: the more amazing we are. And so when I go
Speaker 2: out into the world, I become complicit. I become a
Speaker 2: messenger of the very message that is killing me. So
Speaker 2: I have to if I'm going to take this body
Speaker 2: out into the world, I also have to explain to
Speaker 2: you over and over again that this is actually not amazing.
Speaker 2: This is really unhealthy. And I don't want anybody to
Speaker 2: look at me and think anything other than, oh, she's
Speaker 2: struggling and you can see her thing. You know, everybody
Speaker 2: has a thing. You can just see Mine kind of
Speaker 2: annoys me, but that's what I'm doing now. I'm just
Speaker 2: trying to, like, even in those moments, tell the truth
Speaker 2: about it. That feels a little bit different to me.
Speaker 2: It's all I can do right now.
Speaker 1: Because if we had all been raised in a culture
Speaker 1: where people felt that they could say that more often,
Speaker 1: and that we didn't have this instinct of saying to
Speaker 1: one another women that we know and women that we
Speaker 1: don't know and we'll never meet, oh my gosh, she
Speaker 1: looks amazing, and everyone knows that's code for visible ribs.
Speaker 1: If we could change that dialogue, how much would we
Speaker 1: change around the conversation about the way that we punish
Speaker 1: our bodies.
Speaker 2: When we punish our bodies, that's it, And like, I
Speaker 2: don't want, I don't, I can. This is cool. I
Speaker 2: don't look at emciated bodies or even like overly sculpted
Speaker 2: bodies where you can tell that woman spends ten hours
Speaker 2: in the gym to day. I don't look at that
Speaker 2: as an ideal anymore. I'm like, obviously, she spends most
Speaker 2: of her life in them. That's not how I want
Speaker 2: to spend my one, wild and precious life, like I want.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at ideal bodies now when I look at
Speaker 2: a woman's body, and I'm like, she looks like she
Speaker 2: enjoys her trips around the sun. She looks like she
Speaker 2: has ease. She looks like she likes food and enjoys it.
Speaker 2: She looks like she cares more about how she feels
Speaker 2: than how she looks. That she is enjoying this experience
Speaker 2: on this planet. I actually did say that too. When
Speaker 2: we walked away from that woman, I Abby looked at me.
Speaker 2: We were silent. The woman goes, wow, thanks for sharing,
Speaker 2: and then we walk away and Abby goes, that's going
Speaker 2: to be on your tombstone, Glennon Doyle, Wow, thanks for sharing.
Speaker 1: And how would you feel about that? I mean, I
Speaker 1: think that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2: I think that would be just fine, Sarah, that would
Speaker 2: be just fine. The whole her laundry is finally done. Oh,
Speaker 2: I like Timstone.
Speaker 1: Have you ever gotten to that day, Glennon? Have you
Speaker 1: ever gotten to that day?
Speaker 2: It's ali jl all day it's children'slaundry.
Speaker 1: Same. The book really starts with again, this is going
Speaker 1: to intercept with some of what we've talked about, but
Speaker 1: this notion of the work never ending, and the fact
Speaker 1: that we sort of feel like, maybe at points in
Speaker 1: our life, like we're here, I've done the work. It's
Speaker 1: a little bit like laundry, isn't it. Yay, that's done.
Speaker 1: The laundry is done. Two minutes later it's all filled
Speaker 1: up again, and it's like that metaphor for life, and
Speaker 1: so especially then with someone like you, who so many
Speaker 1: people be like, great, I read that book. Glennon's got
Speaker 1: it all together. I've got all the answers, and then
Speaker 1: it's like, and now this has happened. I love this
Speaker 1: sort of idea. Maybe if it's all accepting, Glenn, I
Speaker 1: think you're really sort of at again the forefront of
Speaker 1: this conversation that it really just is a circle laundry,
Speaker 1: live discovery. We learn things, we do, work, we recover,
Speaker 1: and then we sort of go back in a whole
Speaker 1: other loop. How are you reconciled or not reconciled with
Speaker 1: that concept at this point in your life and your work.
Speaker 2: Well, I think i've recently accepted it more like, I
Speaker 2: will tell you that I do believe that three years ago,
Speaker 2: I thought that I was going to have a victory.
Speaker 2: I was going to have a finish line with the
Speaker 2: eating stuff, with the anxiety stuff, that I was just
Speaker 2: going to nail it one day and there was going
Speaker 2: to be an after. And I do think that this
Speaker 2: time around, I have realized that that is not the
Speaker 2: case with this These are my things, and that I
Speaker 2: am going to live this incarnation with this particular nervous
Speaker 2: system and my particular trauma and my personality. And I
Speaker 2: will never start up trying to grow and trying to
Speaker 2: break patterns that's really important to me. I will never
Speaker 2: stop that. But there is a level of acceptance I
Speaker 2: And what's new for me is that I used to
Speaker 2: when I had when I got weird. I mean I
Speaker 2: call it get weird, so that means like my eating
Speaker 2: stuff is flaring up, or anxiety or whatever it is,
Speaker 2: I'm getting weird. I used to just stop everything public
Speaker 2: until I could kind of get my feet underneath me.
Speaker 2: And one time I didn't do anything public for two years.
Speaker 2: I really and this time around, I realized, oh, there's
Speaker 2: no time for that. I can't. I cannot go back
Speaker 2: home and therapize my way out of this and then
Speaker 2: show up for my community and my country and my
Speaker 2: I just have to go out there all jacked up now,
Speaker 2: because if if the people who are broken hearted by
Speaker 2: everything that's happening in this country don't show up broken hearted,
Speaker 2: then the only people that are showing up are the
Speaker 2: ones that are not broken hearted, and that would be
Speaker 2: a freaking nightmare, right, So Abby and I laugh because
Speaker 2: we have we have three kids, and when they were
Speaker 2: growing up, the older two could always kind of pull
Speaker 2: themselves together, like I would say, you guys were leaving
Speaker 2: the house in ten minutes, and the older two would
Speaker 2: show up all dressed up nice and ready to go,
Speaker 2: and the youngest one would show up with like I
Speaker 2: don't know, like a pizza box on her head, stash
Speaker 2: painted on her and just just a freaking mess, like pajamas,
Speaker 2: you know, just and I would it would be too late.
Speaker 2: So I would just look at them and be like, Okay,
Speaker 2: you're good, you're good, and you just you're you're gonna
Speaker 2: have to go like that, honey, You're just gonna have
Speaker 2: to go like that. And I think when I think
Speaker 2: about like whatever God is. I think that God looks
Speaker 2: at my other spiritual activist friend and she's like, you're good,
Speaker 2: You're good. And then God looks at me and it's like, honey,
Speaker 2: you're just gonna have to go like that.
Speaker 1: You're walking around with the pizza box on your head
Speaker 1: the whole time, just too late.
Speaker 2: You just have to get in the car and go.
Speaker 2: So I'm just showing up in pajamas with the pizza
Speaker 2: box I've had, with my anxiety and my all my stuff.
Speaker 2: And maybe that's okay. Maybe that's just the way we're
Speaker 2: going to do this the whole way through.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a lot of the energy and
Speaker 1: the mindset that is at the heart of we can
Speaker 1: do hard things is that no one is waiting to
Speaker 1: be perfect or have it all together, because first of all,
Speaker 1: ain't going to happen. And as you say, we have
Speaker 1: a very small group of people that are actually showing
Speaker 1: up if we're waiting for that day, and it does
Speaker 1: feel like people are unpacking and learning and evolving it
Speaker 1: at different stages of their stories and their experience in
Speaker 1: real time, because that is what life is.
Speaker 2: Yes, And then if we had people showing up at
Speaker 2: all different stages. We would get rid of this whole
Speaker 2: lake you gotta be or whatever a guru is on
Speaker 2: the whatever. It would just be everybody showing up with
Speaker 2: big open hearts, messy and perfect and we'd get on
Speaker 2: with it.
Speaker 1: Glenn, and I wanted to ask before we finish up
Speaker 1: about your relationship with Abby. It's coming up to ten
Speaker 1: years since you and Abby first went public with your relationship,
Speaker 1: and I was thinking about on this Stella podcast, we've
Speaker 1: had about two hundred episodes, and one of the episodes
Speaker 1: that was the most impactful and that it was a
Speaker 1: huge conversation here in Australia, was that there was a
Speaker 1: very well known Australian actor and performer, Natalie and she
Speaker 1: had gone through a public divorce with her husband, who's
Speaker 1: a fellow entertainer, and they had two children, and she
Speaker 1: sat down with me to do an interview for the
Speaker 1: first time and then she just really took a very
Speaker 1: long beat and something happened in real time again in
Speaker 1: that conversation, and she I believe that's her story to say,
Speaker 1: but my understanding she's since told me pretty much in
Speaker 1: the moment decided to actually come out publicly and that
Speaker 1: she had actually left her marriage because she had fallen
Speaker 1: in love with another woman, Pip, and they're still together,
Speaker 1: and the reaction to it was profound. Was probably coming
Speaker 1: up to two years ago, and Glenn, and the bit
Speaker 1: that I wanted to ask you about was how aware
Speaker 1: are you and Abby if at all this your relationship.
Speaker 1: It's your life. It's not like a you know, it's
Speaker 1: not a case study, it's not a lesson. But the
Speaker 1: impact of that and the conversation I think has had
Speaker 1: a ripple effect, and I would argue probably helped change
Speaker 1: the environment in which that conversation with Natalie it was
Speaker 1: really met with a really warm, welcoming, safe space in
Speaker 1: the Australian community coming up to ten years ago. Would
Speaker 1: love to know, like I say, what you think about
Speaker 1: the role that you and Abbey have played in visibility
Speaker 1: and do you think that the environment is becoming a
Speaker 1: little bit out for the people that will follow you?
Speaker 2: I mean, that makes me really emotional. So I'll just
Speaker 2: I I have been thinking about that differently in the
Speaker 2: last year or so year. I guess I feel so
Speaker 2: grateful that you know, when Untamed came out, I went
Speaker 2: through a lot. I was a lot of my readers
Speaker 2: and community were Christian. It was a very Christian base,
Speaker 2: and so there was there's a difference between somebody who
Speaker 2: comes out. There's a difference between that and somebody who
Speaker 2: comes out from a fundamentalist religious place. It's like infuriating
Speaker 2: to people. I think they don't understand why, but I
Speaker 2: think they're afraid that other people are also going to
Speaker 2: realize that they are free. I think that is what
Speaker 2: the fear like there. Go If I make this decision
Speaker 2: and stay true to myself and go out into the
Speaker 2: world and I don't get struck down by or bying God,
Speaker 2: that then other people might see that they too can
Speaker 2: be free. And that is very scary for institutions that
Speaker 2: keep people stationary through fear. So there was particular circumstances
Speaker 2: that made my coming out challenging, just like I think
Speaker 2: there are particular circumstances for everybody. I also had an
Speaker 2: unbelievably supportive family and an incredible community. For every person
Speaker 2: who was telling me I was going to go to hell,
Speaker 2: there were five who were saying we love you, we
Speaker 2: love abby, we are with you, we believe in love.
Speaker 2: So there was as much beauty as sadness. I think
Speaker 2: right now, I can tell you that I am so
Speaker 2: grateful that Untamed is out in the world, because even
Speaker 2: as we speak, the book bannings and the silencing of
Speaker 2: LGBTQ voices is just relentless and every day, And so
Speaker 2: I feel more grateful now than I did before that
Speaker 2: Untamed is out in the world, that a kid might
Speaker 2: hold it and feel seen, or a young woman might
Speaker 2: read it and feel free. And I can't when I
Speaker 2: was so scared and terrified that how what am I
Speaker 2: going to do? I'm going to lose everything. I can't
Speaker 2: be true to myself. I can't do this with Abby.
Speaker 2: I have a few wise friends Abby my sister to
Speaker 2: other ones are Liz and Martha back you mentioned them earlier,
Speaker 2: And I called Martha and told her all the reasons
Speaker 2: that I could do this, that I was never never
Speaker 2: had felt so alive, never had felt so sure of anything,
Speaker 2: never had been in love before, never had been so happy,
Speaker 2: And wasn't it a shame that there was nothing I
Speaker 2: could do about it? And one of the things she
Speaker 2: said to me was, you don't have to do anything
Speaker 2: but love Abby. If you and Abby get together and
Speaker 2: love each other well and out loud, you won't have
Speaker 2: to do another damn thing in your life. Just you
Speaker 2: two loving each other well and out loud and being
Speaker 2: yourselves will do more than anything you could do if
Speaker 2: you tried to whip it up yourself. And I remember thinking, well,
Speaker 2: that's bad, shit, crazy, what is she talking about? Absolutely right,
Speaker 2: she was absolutely right. When I make decisions, even if
Speaker 2: they're about war or the kids or whatever, where I'm
Speaker 2: somehow basing it in this love that Abby and I have,
Speaker 2: it always turns into beauty. So oh, I'm going to
Speaker 2: look up that Natalie and that Pip. I'm so glad
Speaker 2: you told me that story.
Speaker 1: Glenna Doyle, it has been such an absolute delight to
Speaker 1: talk to you. Thank you so much for making the time,
Speaker 1: and congratulations on the book, to yourself, to Abby and
Speaker 1: to Amanda, and thanks again for joining me today.
Speaker 2: Such a thoughtful, beautiful interviewer. Thank you so much. I
Speaker 2: loved every minute of this.
Speaker 1: And We Can Do Hard Things is available wherever you
Speaker 1: buy your books or via the link in our show notes.
Speaker 1: I'll be back in your ears with another exclusive guest
Speaker 1: for Stella next week. Thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 1: Before you go, we'd love it if you take a
Speaker 1: moment to leave a review or maybe send this episode
Speaker 1: to a friend.