WEBVTT - Glennon Doyle on body image, resilience - and that Ivanka Trump post 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:11.280 Hello, and welcome to Something to Talk About the Stella Podcast. 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:14.360 I'm sarah La marquind your host, and every week I 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.720 sit down with some of the biggest names in the country. 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.960 Because when celebrities are ready to talk, they come to 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:24.440 Something to talk about. It's easy to assume Glennan Doyle 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.960 has all the answers, but over the past two years 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.720 her world has been unraveling. In twenty twenty three, in 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:36.520 her late forties, she was diagnosed with anorexia. That same year, 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:40.320 her wife, former US soccer champion Abby Wombach, was grieving 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.760 the sudden loss of her brother, and her sister Amanda, 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.120 was diagnosed with breast cancer. It was the kind of 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:49.560 year when no one could be the strong one. 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.000 But it felt like I was drownding, and I looked 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.600 over at the shore and both of the lifeguards were 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:55.400 like passed out. 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.240 You may know. Glennon is the author of Untamed, a 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.400 book that changed or quite ploss saved the lives of 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.240 millions from her podcast We Can Do Hard Things, which 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:08.919 she co hosts with Abbi and Amanda. Now they've turned 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:11.760 that space into a book also called We Can Do 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:16.240 Hard Things, pulling together insights from over one hundred conversations 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:20.160 with people like Elizabeth Gilbert, Esther Perel, t Rana Burke, 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:24.360 and Jane Fonder. On today's show, Glennon joins me to 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:27.600 talk about being confined to the self help pile. 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:33.559 My books will be in the self help aya. My counterparts, 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:39.520 men will be in leadership. Okay. Do you ever hear 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.720 a man's work described as self help? No? No, no, 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:46.120 because men they're good to go. 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:48.960 How to make peace with your body in a world 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:51.040 that's always telling women to shrink. 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.200 Just get smaller and smaller and fix yourself before you 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:56.680 can even approach the world. 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:00.800 Navigating the messy politics in her home country, and how 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:04.000 she felt when Avanka Trump recently endorsed one of her books. 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:06.560 We're the first person to ask me about it. I 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:07.400 just was stunned. 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.560 And before we begin, a note that this conversation discusses 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.720 disordered eating. If you need support, you can find more 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:17.160 information in our show notes. Glenn and Doyle, Welcome to 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:18.240 the Stellar Podcast. 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.639 Thank you Sarah for having me. I'm delighted to be here. 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.120 We can do Hard Things is a book that you 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:29.320 have co written with your wife Abby and your sister Amanda, 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.000 Now of course, the three of you have created a 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:38.080 very interconnected creative world. You have books, podcasts and incredibly 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:42.360 strong community the pod squad, all anchored in the truth 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:45.480 that we can do hard things. And as I say, 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.840 now you've turned this mantra into a book. It seeks 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:53.840 advice to twenty key life questions. And there are a 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:56.760 lot of people featured in the book. I believe one 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:02.560 hundred and eighteen spiritual leaders. There are per actors, artists, 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:05.600 pop culture icons, just a bit of a role call. 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:12.840 Includes Hannah Gadsby, fellow Australian Martha Beck, Elizabeth Gilbert, Esther Perell, 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:17.160 Tarana Burke, Alanas Morrissett, Glenn and I have to ask 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.960 about the logistics of this book. We know it's stella. 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.320 What it's like wrangling high profile people all to be 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:29.280 in the same space, getting people to respond to questions. 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.320 How on earth did you guys pull this off? 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.000 Wow? Thank you. No one's asked me that question and 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:42.080 it was very hard. Yes, you know. The beautiful thing 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:46.200 is that almost all because some of the passages are 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:51.200 actually from texts between that I got from friends, but 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:53.880 most of them are from conversations that we had on 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:57.600 our podcast and we can do hard things. So the 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:00.800 beauty of it was my team would is just four 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:06.640 of us for women. We just over time, the conversations 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:10.840 we had on that podcast really changed, rewired us, rewired 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:12.840 our minds and hearts and the way we saw the world. 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:19.960 And as we poured through those conversations, we just realized 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.000 people are really talking about the same twenty questions over 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:27.440 and over again from their particular slice of life. And 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:33.159 the beautiful situation was that we already had all the conversations. 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:35.159 So all I had to do was wrangle all these 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:39.680 people and say, how about this incredible, brilliant thing you 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:43.320 said be put in print? And most of them were like, great, 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:48.400 I sound very smart in that printed. So that part 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:50.839 was And these people, I mean, as you can see, 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:52.839 the people in this book, the people that we have 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.120 chosen to have on the podcast are just some of 0:04:55.160 --> 0:05:02.320 the most heart wide, open minded, justice minded, love minded, 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.960 community minded people on the earth. And it just feels like, 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.680 especially I don't know if you've noticed, but we got 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.360 a lot going on in this country right now, it 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:14.600 really feels like the whole idea of self help and 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:20.080 individual optimization has failed us. And so what I'm very 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.760 proud of is that this book is about collective wisdom. 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:28.680 It's about we cannot figure this out by ourselves, that 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:30.880 we have to look at the world from as many 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.880 different perspective as there are people. And I just think 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.159 that is the power of the book right now. Why 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.400 it's resonating so much here is that it's about collective. 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:42.479 It's about the collective. 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.400 I was going to actually ask you about that, is that, 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.920 if ever we needed a guidebook for these things, that 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:54.200 surely is this moment in time globally, but particularly yes 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.599 in your home country of the United States. 0:05:56.640 --> 0:06:03.080 First of all, it's a nightmare here. It's awful. It's we 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.840 are seeing our neighbors be rounded up in front of us. 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:08.200 I see it with my own eyes all the time. 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:14.400 We are I was just in children's immigration court watching 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:19.800 two year olds represent themselves in court having been separated 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.600 from their families. It's it's a nightmare. All of I mean, 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:29.240 my family and every LGBTQ family I know is terrified. 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:35.000 Parents with trans kids are leaving if they can. It's 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:39.720 a really scary time here. We we actually with the 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.080 with this book took we took we did a tour, 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:45.960 we went, I did not, you know, Sarah, I did 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:47.880 not want to do that. That's so much leaving of 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:48.320 my house. 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.240 That's right, that's airports, that's the that's the whole thing. 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:53.640 You've got flight attendants coming up to you saying, we 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.320 can do hot things. 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:01.560 Yes, literal stages, not just answering my door on actual stages. Okay. 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:07.080 But the incredible thing was, I think we have this 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.559 feeling in the States right now. A lot of media 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:11.840 is being suppressed, and so it feels very much like 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:15.040 you can feel like the only one who cares, or 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.160 the only one who's afraid or angry or wishes for 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.480 something better. And this tour was so important to me 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:26.880 because it was just auditoriums and theaters full of people 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:31.520 who were so hopeful and so angry and so united 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:36.200 and so beautiful, and that really, I don't know what 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:40.400 kind of it just gave. You know, they say, hopelessness 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:43.160 is just the feeling that nobody else cares, that you're alone. 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.360 And so that tour that we did with that we 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:50.280 can do hard things book, I think reinvigorated a lot 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.360 of us, just reminded us there are still a lot 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:55.440 of people here who care and who will not stand 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:57.440 for what's going down right now here. 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:00.840 Glennon, just since the issue of Paula has come up 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:04.600 on what's going to ask because you have been somebody 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:07.920 who has used your platform to advocate for many causes 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:12.120 close to your heart, and that also involves speaking out 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:17.520 against the Trump administration, particularly during the November twenty twenty 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:23.600 four election campaign. Recently, Donald Trump's daughter Avanka Trump posted 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:28.160 on Instagram and she's holding your memoir Untamed, which I've 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.640 already mentioned, And I really wanted to ask you how 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:35.160 that feels. How does the moment like that sit with you. 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:38.360 We are the first person to ask me about it. 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:41.360 My team said it to me, and I just kind 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.840 of looked. I just was stunned. I just didn't process 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:49.839 it completely. I can tell you honestly that my best 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:51.839 guess is she didn't read it all the way through. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.600 There's an entire essay about her dad in it that 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:59.400 is about how unbelievable it is that this man is 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:04.280 being seen as a leader of what is it supposed 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.559 to be Christian nationalis. It's an entire essay about that. 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.800 So I think she probably didn't get all the way through. 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:15.840 But I guess all I can say is. I hope 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.840 she reads it. I hope she reads it really, really carefully. 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:21.760 That's what I'll say about that. 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:27.880 Absolutely, we have spoken about the background of the world 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:31.439 and particularly your homeland with the release of We Can 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.640 Do Hard Things. But it also was created in the 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.240 backdrop of a very very difficult time for the three 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:44.079 of you that co wrote this book. Yourself Glennon had 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:50.600 an anorexia diagnosis, your wife Abby had lost her beloved brother, 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:56.520 and your wonderful sister Amanda had a breast cancer diagnosis. 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.440 That is a lot. I'd love to ask you a 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:01.880 little bit of that in terms of, of course of 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.600 creative process watered on taped for the three of you 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:10.160 individually and collectively in creating this work, but also as 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.920 that close unit. The three of you are so close 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:17.240 and going through that sort of very different trauma. At 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.440 the same time, the people that you rely on are 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:22.000 also grappling with stuff. 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.920 When you were saying that, I was thinking, you know 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.760 how you have little friend groups or family groups, or 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.160 a best friend or somebody. I mean, I hope everybody 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:35.640 has somebody, and we kind of depend on the other 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:38.520 to like have their shit. 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:39.240 Together a little bit. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.280 When we lose ours like you. Just I have never 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:44.680 had a time. My sister and my wife are my people. 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:51.120 Those are the ones like I kind of have. I 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:52.800 don't know. I think maybe because I depend on the 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.640 two of them. I don't actually have as many like 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.920 friends in a wider circle than those two. I depend 0:10:59.920 --> 0:11:02.240 on those two, probably maybe a little bit too much, 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:11.040 but I am used to that one of them being steady, absolutely, 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.880 And I kind of felt like when I got my 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:17.920 new anarexia diagnosis. And I have been dealing with eating 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.560 disorder since I was ten, so this is not It 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:27.199 was just I felt I felt just actually I felt humiliated. 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.120 I think embarrassed is the word I felt the most, 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.520 Just that I could not believe I'm still dealing with this, 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:35.599 Like do I have to actually tell people? Do? I 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:38.480 just felt like everyone in my life was going to 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:42.880 be like get over it. Like that's how I felt. 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.600 But it felt like I was drowning. And I looked 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.240 over at the shore and both of the lifeguards were 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:52.120 like passed out. That's how I felt. In the moment, 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:58.560 my lifeguards were also having their own moment, and this 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:02.280 interesting thing happened than where I don't know if this 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:04.400 happens to you. But it feels like a very bad 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:09.920 design of life that when trauma comes, that's the time 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.040 we can't remember anything we know, Like, that's the time 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:19.600 we can't call up all the wisdom we've learned about 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:25.840 how to make it through. And that sucks. But I 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.040 have learned that that actually is what happens in trauma. 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.560 Trauma causes this little mini dissociation. I used to just think. 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:36.959 My family used to call me Dory. I don't know 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.040 if you know Dory from Nemo, where it's like every 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.680 day it's just like here, I am brand now, I 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:49.080 remember yesterday. Yes, But that is how I felt during 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:53.800 that time, like I couldn't access anything I knew about 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:57.679 how to make it through hard times. And unfortunately Abby 0:12:57.720 --> 0:12:59.920 felt the same way, and so did Amanda. So we 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.280 were just kind of staring at each other, blinking, and 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:08.480 this cool thing happened, which is that I started writing 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:14.959 down little sentences or quotes or paragraphs that we had 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.559 said to each other on the podcast and sending them 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:21.920 to my sister to help her through the cancer thing. 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.120 And it was like some of the things were things 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:27.880 she had said. You know. It's like people would come 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:29.680 up to me in the grocery store during that time 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:31.840 and say, oh my god, your books help me through 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:34.640 so many hard times. And I used to say to them, Sarah, 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.280 can you remember any of the things I said that 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:37.880 helped you? 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.360 That I write it to me now. 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.199 So then she started writing down things about grief for 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:51.760 Abby and we had this little file going around. Abby 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:55.440 started writing things down for me about body, and you 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:57.120 know how that it became the make how Do I 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.280 Make Peace with My Body? Chapter? So we kept this 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:05.040 kind of file that we were just using as an 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.920 anchor outside of ourselves. Which is so funny because I've 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.160 spent my entire life telling people that they have all 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:15.000 the answers inside of them. I'm no longer positive that's true. 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.200 And then a friend, like three months later, my friend 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:22.360 was going through she was going through this horrible breakup, 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:26.680 and I sent her on an email the file we 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.320 had about grief and she wrote back and said, Glennon, 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.920 can you just make me this for all the categories 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:37.000 of life? This is what I need? And I thought, yeah, 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.320 I actually can do that. That's how the book started. 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.520 That's how the book was born. Yeah, and that's great, 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.200 and it really feels like that it feels like you 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.880 are deeping in and out of conversations between these incredibly 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:54.320 wise people but also very vulnerable and people that are 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.000 just in the middle of it. And there's moments where 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:00.760 people go, this is just I don't know what to do. Well, 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.760 then there's moments where someone has a realization and the 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:08.160 other person will say, yes, exactly, that it's great. 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:10.360 This is what I want to ask you if this 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:16.160 comes through, because I actually can't stand it when people 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.680 pretend to have all the answers, like I'm allergic to it, 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:26.160 anybody who is. I don't. This whole genre can feel 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:30.560 very snake oil salesmany and like five Steps to Enlightenment, 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:36.480 all this crap that I cannot stand. And so I 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.960 feel like what I needed it to be was not 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:44.640 people telling you how to walk a path, but like 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:46.880 people who have been on the path and just showing 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.440 you snapshots, like showing you polaroids of what they've seen 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.240 on the path or what you might see or what 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.240 but that it's not in any way prescriptive. 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:02.000 That is absolutely how I have experienced a book. So 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.720 I have the hard copy with me for research purposes, 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.520 but I've actually been listening to the audio book, and 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.200 that's why it has that real conversation component, and there 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:15.000 are parts that are really relevant and resonant to the 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.600 point that you almost can be a bit overwhelmed take 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:23.640 a moment, and there's other moments that aren't necessarily your experience. 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.920 And obviously this is me responding, but I would imagine 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.200 everyone would have that whatever their own path is, And 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.360 that is exactly it is not this sort of guru 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:38.040 on the mountaintop. It's lived experience, which I know can 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.880 be an overused word and is a bit of a buzzword, 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.760 but it genuinely is that. And Glennar, I just was 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:47.200 thinking when you were saying that, how when I was 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:51.440 doing that Google search on Avanka and those headlines that 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.280 I saw, and one of them described you as self 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:57.640 help guru, And I thought, I have to ask Glennon 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:01.560 about that, because having read we Can Do Hard Things, 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.280 I don't imagine that is at all how she would 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.840 self identify, because that is not how this work is reading. 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:16.639 Sarah, don't get me started on the self help okay, Sarah. 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:25.000 I have so many male counterparts, okay, who write about 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.040 the same things that I write about, who write about 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:33.679 power and power dynamics and life and relationships, even and 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:40.360 politics and community. Do you think that any of them 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:45.520 are ever labeled self help? My books will be in 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:52.840 the self help aisle. My counterparts men will be in leadership. Okay, 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:59.040 do you ever hear a man's work described as self help? No? No, no, 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.840 Because men they're good to go, they just need some 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:06.679 leadership skills. Women are just a mess and they just 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:16.479 need help with their little selves. That distinction is it's 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:20.879 in every area, right, It's like that's the literary version 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:25.600 or the but even okay, bodies. You know, men are 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:26.040 taught to. 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.640 Like bulk up, bigger, bigger, bigger. 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.320 And women are taught to get smaller and money. Men 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.840 are taught to invest, women are taught to save. Every 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.960 single category is about men. You're good to go, Just 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:45.800 get bigger, get bolder, go for it. And women self help. 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.840 You're not even ready to leave the room. Just get 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.560 smaller and smaller and fix yourself before you can even 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.679 approach the world. So yes, I have many issues with 0:18:57.760 --> 0:18:59.800 the self help title, and I think it is a 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:01.240 has a lot to do with gender. 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:05.720 It's unbelievable that we're still here in twenty twenty five. 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.040 And you know what, The whole navelgazing thing is so interesting, 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:10.960 Like God forbid a man do a little bit of 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.840 self reflection. I would like Cement to look harder at 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.800 their navels. Honestly, I think that would do it all 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:17.720 a little bit of good. 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:21.679 Glennar And I love the way that you spoke about 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:25.600 yourself and Abby and Amanda and everything happening at that 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:28.240 same time. One of the messages I got from the 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:31.600 book is almost like resilience and survival is what happens 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:34.840 when you're making other plans. 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:38.919 Or when you're making friends. I am not good at that. 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:46.600 I am very socially anxious. I a solitary person. So 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.639 even doing the I mean as a writer, I go 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:55.840 into a small room for years. That's and then I 0:19:55.840 --> 0:20:03.119 write about humanity without ever talking to humans. Okay, to 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:09.479 expose myself constantly on the podcast to other people and 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:11.480 other and then and then make friends with some of 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:14.119 them and then organize with some of them. My entire 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.000 it's not comfortable for me, but my entire life has 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:21.879 changed because of it. And I think my sister and 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.200 I always talk about like we used to just say, 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:26.879 I don't have enough time for friendship. How do people 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.320 have time for this? How do people have energy for this? 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:32.280 And I'm like, oh, I get it. It's the friendship 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:39.000 that gives you energy. It's I think there's something about 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:42.320 it that is the answer to what we're talking about before, 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:44.919 to everything that's going on in our country. It's just 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:50.359 like the individualism and the even our wellness obsession that 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.199 always has to do with just like drinking more smoothies 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.320 and red lighting in your house, and it's like, wait 0:20:55.359 --> 0:21:00.000 a minute, wellness is about collective liberation. Like our wellness, 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.880 we're red lighting and cold plunging while all of our 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.880 bodily autonomy is taken away in the courts, like our 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:09.560 wellness has to be tied to protests, has to be 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:13.879 tied to holding hands with each other and being in 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:19.000 the streets knowing our neighbors, leaving our little gems and 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:23.199 being embodied. I mean, Sarah, I was doing this the 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:27.000 first interview I ever did about this book. It was 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.280 a TV show. I was in New York and the 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:31.680 woman looked at me and said, opened up to the 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:34.600 chapter that said how do I make peace with my body? 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:37.560 And she was like, I deal with eating disorders too, 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:39.280 How do I make peace with my body, and I 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:43.760 just froze, And what flashed in my mind is all 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.840 of the Americans who are on the streets lined up 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.800 with their bodies protecting their neighbors from ice, who are 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:52.480 with their bodies in the streets protesting, who are with 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:54.800 their bodies going into high schools and saying, where's the 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:57.240 queer alliance? I want to stand with these kids. And 0:21:57.280 --> 0:22:00.440 I thought, oh my God, that that's the way I 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:02.399 want to look at that question. How do I go 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:05.800 out into the world and make peace with my body, 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:09.840 not an individualistic way, but in a way where I 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:14.159 just like enter into this beautiful energy of people showing 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:18.280 up for each other and use my body to protect us. 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.200 And I'm thinking about that all the time. In terms 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.399 of where we are in the country right now, it 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:29.600 feels like I think it's more important than ever for 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:33.240 all of us because you are all dealing with the 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:36.480 ramifications of what's going on here. The whole world is 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:40.560 feeling it. It feels so important that we hold tighter 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:44.119 than ever to the things that actually make us human, 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:46.760 to the things that actually make life worth living. Friendship 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.080 and romance and food and dance and art and love, 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:53.840 and all of it, because that's the fuel, that's what 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:57.320 keeps us fighting. Because if we don't remember in our 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:00.280 bodies what makes life worth fighting for them, and we 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:03.600 give up the fight. So these two things are just 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:07.439 inextricably linked. And it's very tempting right now to be 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:11.359 hopeless or to work so hard and forget the joy 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:15.000 that the best, the best, most powerful activists I know 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:19.440 are also the most joyful, and that's because they remember 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:24.080 that that's all part of it. Right. So I do 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:28.160 think that I'm thinking more than ever about friendship and 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:31.280 community and softness and love and joy and art and 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:36.680 all of it. And I want to say even during 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.639 this time, but I think it, I mean, especially during 0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:40.399 this time. 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:46.040 There were also some really practical, uh, I think experiences 0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:49.960 where it was don't just say to somebody what can 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:52.600 I do to help? Or I'm here if you need me, 0:23:52.800 --> 0:23:56.760 but actually there were people who had sent list of 0:23:56.840 --> 0:24:00.520 his's what I need. There's real generosity and bravery in 0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:04.000 us asking for help as well as reaching out and 0:24:04.040 --> 0:24:06.720 giving one another help when we need it. 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:10.600 Yeah, it's so interesting you're saying that, and I'm thinking 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:14.800 we're all so good at saying I think and then 0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:18.720 saying our opinion. I think that is we live up here. 0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:22.240 We think we can think or hot take our way 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:25.760 to enlightenment or goodness or but we have a hard 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:30.320 time saying I need or I want, or I feel 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:34.680 or I love. I'm trying to get out a little 0:24:34.680 --> 0:24:37.880 bit of all I think blah blah blah, and get 0:24:37.920 --> 0:24:40.359 more in my body and tell my people what I need, 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:44.560 tell the world what I love, write about what I imagine. 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:48.920 I think there's a lot and there is such specificity 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:55.560 to love. And Abby recently was talking about how she's 0:24:55.600 --> 0:25:01.280 in year two after having lost her brother and she's 0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:04.200