1 00:00:04,050 --> 00:00:07,440 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer we 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:11,190 Sean Aylmer: talk a lot about cryptocurrencies, about volatility, about the technology, 3 00:00:11,190 --> 00:00:14,580 Sean Aylmer: and about the potential for regulation. We've seen recently, federal 4 00:00:14,580 --> 00:00:18,090 Sean Aylmer: treasurer, Jim Chalmers, announced a review into crypto assets to 5 00:00:18,090 --> 00:00:21,810 Sean Aylmer: both better understand them and potentially regulate them. ASIC has 6 00:00:21,810 --> 00:00:24,239 Sean Aylmer: also said it wants to keep a closer watch on 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:29,010 Sean Aylmer: cryptos. ECommerce giant PayPal has also commissioned research into digital 8 00:00:29,010 --> 00:00:31,620 Sean Aylmer: commerce trends, and I wanted to have a look at 9 00:00:31,620 --> 00:00:36,659 Sean Aylmer: what they found about cryptos, NFT, nonfungible tokens, and how we're engaging 10 00:00:36,659 --> 00:00:40,590 Sean Aylmer: with the metaverse. Edwin Aoki is the CTO of Blockchain, 11 00:00:40,590 --> 00:00:43,500 Sean Aylmer: Crypto, and Digital Currencies at PayPal. He's based in the 12 00:00:43,500 --> 00:00:46,260 Sean Aylmer: US but is visiting Australia at the moment. Edwin, welcome 13 00:00:46,260 --> 00:00:46,979 Sean Aylmer: to Fear and Greed. 14 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:48,540 Edwin Aoki: Thank you. It's great to be here. 15 00:00:49,380 --> 00:00:52,470 Sean Aylmer: That is quite the title CTO of Blockchain, Crypto, and 16 00:00:52,470 --> 00:00:54,510 Sean Aylmer: Digital Currencies. Impressive. 17 00:00:54,750 --> 00:00:58,200 Edwin Aoki: Yes, it's a fun job. It's something that allows me 18 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,100 Edwin Aoki: to be able to bring the history and experience that 19 00:01:02,100 --> 00:01:04,679 Edwin Aoki: we have at PayPal and the payment space together with 20 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,330 Edwin Aoki: this new and nascent experience. 21 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,199 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Look, we saw some figures last year, claiming that 40% 22 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,190 Sean Aylmer: of Australians intended to buy crypto in the next 12 23 00:01:14,190 --> 00:01:18,690 Sean Aylmer: months. That always seemed a bit unrealistic. According to your 24 00:01:18,690 --> 00:01:20,910 Sean Aylmer: data, how many Australians actually own crypto? 25 00:01:21,390 --> 00:01:25,110 Edwin Aoki: We found that one in seven Australians have owned cryptocurrency 26 00:01:25,110 --> 00:01:27,330 Edwin Aoki: at some point. It looks like about 10% of Australians 27 00:01:27,330 --> 00:01:28,770 Edwin Aoki: currently own cryptocurrency today. 28 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,700 Sean Aylmer: That's still a huge number. Are they investing large amounts? 29 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:33,990 Sean Aylmer: Is there an average or something? 30 00:01:34,350 --> 00:01:36,840 Edwin Aoki: We have found in our research that the average spend on 31 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:42,300 Edwin Aoki: cryptocurrency was just over $ 7, 000. I think that we're 32 00:01:42,300 --> 00:01:44,819 Edwin Aoki: seeing that people are really taking an interest in this 33 00:01:44,819 --> 00:01:47,910 Edwin Aoki: space here in Australia, much more so than in other 34 00:01:47,910 --> 00:01:48,630 Edwin Aoki: parts of the world. 35 00:01:49,500 --> 00:01:53,580 Sean Aylmer: Do people understand cryptos be that individuals, be that businesses? 36 00:01:54,090 --> 00:01:59,040 Sean Aylmer: It still seems like a slightly (inaudible) . I actually 37 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:00,780 Sean Aylmer: don't want to have too much of a value judgment 38 00:02:00,780 --> 00:02:03,990 Sean Aylmer: on it so I should take that back. I just 39 00:02:03,990 --> 00:02:07,290 Sean Aylmer: wonder about how many people truly understand what cryptocurrencies are. 40 00:02:08,310 --> 00:02:11,280 Edwin Aoki: Our research showed that about a fifth of Australians want 41 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,910 Edwin Aoki: to learn more about cryptocurrencies and NFTs and about the 42 00:02:14,910 --> 00:02:19,500 Edwin Aoki: same amount, 20% of Australian businesses indicated they had a 43 00:02:19,500 --> 00:02:23,339 Edwin Aoki: good understanding of what cryptocurrencies are and how they work, 44 00:02:23,820 --> 00:02:27,750 Edwin Aoki: but it's still a nascent field. I think that there's 45 00:02:27,750 --> 00:02:31,590 Edwin Aoki: always opportunities for people to become more educated and more 46 00:02:31,590 --> 00:02:32,641 Edwin Aoki: informed about this space. 47 00:02:32,641 --> 00:02:37,049 Sean Aylmer: How do they do that? How do we find out more about cryptos if we're interested? 48 00:02:37,530 --> 00:02:40,200 Edwin Aoki: I think that there are great podcasts like this one. 49 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,139 Edwin Aoki: There are a lot of resources that are out there 50 00:02:43,139 --> 00:02:46,050 Edwin Aoki: and certainly, in our products and services, we put a 51 00:02:46,050 --> 00:02:50,880 Edwin Aoki: real emphasis on educational materials on things like volatility or 52 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,650 Edwin Aoki: specific coins, even tax implications. We put that front and 53 00:02:55,650 --> 00:02:58,320 Edwin Aoki: center as part of our crypto product experience. 54 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:03,780 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Assuming people understand crypto, what are the reasons they're 55 00:03:03,780 --> 00:03:07,320 Sean Aylmer: using it and particularly businesses here and what are the reasons 56 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:08,280 Sean Aylmer: they're not using it? 57 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,919 Edwin Aoki: I think that certainly there are folks that have concerns 58 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:18,990 Edwin Aoki: about the safety and security of trading cryptocurrencies. Here in 59 00:03:18,990 --> 00:03:23,130 Edwin Aoki: Australia, our research suggests that almost a third of Australians 60 00:03:23,430 --> 00:03:27,030 Edwin Aoki: have those concerns. I don't think that's a surprise. This 61 00:03:27,030 --> 00:03:29,520 Edwin Aoki: is still a new area with lots of jargon that 62 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,200 Edwin Aoki: can be confusing and new and unfamiliar names. It's worth 63 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,010 Edwin Aoki: remembering, however, that it wasn't so long ago that consumers 64 00:03:38,010 --> 00:03:41,190 Edwin Aoki: were reluctant to pay online. It took companies like PayPal 65 00:03:41,190 --> 00:03:45,810 Edwin Aoki: that brought technology together with education and customer- friendly policies 66 00:03:45,810 --> 00:03:49,770 Edwin Aoki: and protections to give consumers the confidence to transact in 67 00:03:49,770 --> 00:03:54,180 Edwin Aoki: that way. I think that once people have that visibility 68 00:03:54,180 --> 00:03:57,540 Edwin Aoki: and that information, they will gain the confidence to be 69 00:03:57,540 --> 00:04:01,950 Edwin Aoki: able to really take advantage of these assets, to look 70 00:04:01,950 --> 00:04:05,160 Edwin Aoki: at things like instant settlement, to take advantage of the 71 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,700 Edwin Aoki: programmability of payments, and really start to participate in some 72 00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:11,850 Edwin Aoki: of these new areas around Web3 and the metaverse. 73 00:04:12,900 --> 00:04:16,440 Sean Aylmer: Digital tokens units, cryptos, whatever you want to call them, 74 00:04:18,420 --> 00:04:22,140 Sean Aylmer: the future is bright. There's lots of volatility, but what 75 00:04:22,140 --> 00:04:23,609 Sean Aylmer: you are saying is that you think it will be 76 00:04:23,610 --> 00:04:25,560 Sean Aylmer: a bigger part of the payment systems market. 77 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,870 Edwin Aoki: Absolutely. Our view at PayPal is that crypto is really 78 00:04:31,500 --> 00:04:35,400 Edwin Aoki: best when it serves the needs of accessibility so that 79 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,070 Edwin Aoki: more people can be brought into the financial system, that 80 00:04:38,070 --> 00:04:41,640 Edwin Aoki: it has real utility for folks that can use it 81 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,000 Edwin Aoki: for the kinds of things that they want to exchange 82 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,240 Edwin Aoki: value and that it happens in the context of a 83 00:04:48,270 --> 00:04:52,650 Edwin Aoki: regulatory and compliance framework that people understand, and that protect 84 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:56,760 Edwin Aoki: them from the most egregious abuses that are out there. 85 00:04:57,210 --> 00:04:59,370 Edwin Aoki: We do think that the future is bright for this space. 86 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:08,220 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Edwin, we'll be back in a minute. My guest 87 00:05:08,220 --> 00:05:12,690 Sean Aylmer: this morning is Edwin Aoki, CTO of Blockchain, Crypto, and Digital Currencies 88 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,529 Sean Aylmer: at PayPal. I want to move on to non- fungible 89 00:05:16,529 --> 00:05:20,430 Sean Aylmer: tokens and FTs. Your research had a look at that 90 00:05:20,430 --> 00:05:23,010 Sean Aylmer: as well. It's still fairly fringe, isn't it? 91 00:05:23,310 --> 00:05:25,650 Edwin Aoki: It is. It's still very early days I think with 92 00:05:25,650 --> 00:05:30,120 Edwin Aoki: NFTs. Only 4% of Australians, according to our research have owned an 93 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:35,070 Edwin Aoki: NFT at some point and today only about 2% of Australians 94 00:05:35,070 --> 00:05:39,180 Edwin Aoki: currently own an NFT, but 20% again, say that they 95 00:05:39,180 --> 00:05:40,589 Edwin Aoki: want to learn more about that. 96 00:05:40,589 --> 00:05:44,130 Sean Aylmer: I like the idea of an NFT and I sort of 97 00:05:44,130 --> 00:05:46,740 Sean Aylmer: understand that more than I understand cryptos to be perfectly 98 00:05:46,740 --> 00:05:49,500 Sean Aylmer: honest because I always compare it almost to a piece 99 00:05:49,500 --> 00:05:53,010 Sean Aylmer: of artwork just about. I can see value in it 100 00:05:53,070 --> 00:05:56,610 Sean Aylmer: if people believe there's value in it. What about safety 101 00:05:56,610 --> 00:05:59,550 Sean Aylmer: and security of trading of NFTs? That's one thing I 102 00:05:59,550 --> 00:06:00,630 Sean Aylmer: don't quite get. 103 00:06:01,830 --> 00:06:05,130 Edwin Aoki: Yeah, certainly I think that there are concerns around that 104 00:06:05,130 --> 00:06:08,520 Edwin Aoki: just as there have been concerns around crypto. The safety 105 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,210 Edwin Aoki: and security of trading NFTs depends not only on the 106 00:06:12,210 --> 00:06:17,160 Edwin Aoki: underlying technology and the protocol but also in the underlying 107 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:22,140 Edwin Aoki: asset that NFT is tokenizing. Again, I think that there is 108 00:06:22,140 --> 00:06:27,810 Edwin Aoki: a wide variety of quality around those underlying assets and 109 00:06:27,870 --> 00:06:32,220 Edwin Aoki: understanding of what consumers are actually buying when they get 110 00:06:32,220 --> 00:06:36,240 Edwin Aoki: an NFT. I think that there is an opportunity for 111 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:41,190 Edwin Aoki: marketplaces and for individuals to become much more informed and 112 00:06:41,190 --> 00:06:45,089 Edwin Aoki: much more respectful of the way that consumers need to 113 00:06:45,089 --> 00:06:47,520 Edwin Aoki: understand these assets in order to be successful. 114 00:06:48,870 --> 00:06:53,550 Sean Aylmer: Cryptos, digital units, NFTs, certainly they have people who believe 115 00:06:53,550 --> 00:06:57,060 Sean Aylmer: in them, those who don't. Pretty much everyone likes the 116 00:06:57,060 --> 00:07:00,060 Sean Aylmer: technology behind them though, blockchain technology. It just seems to 117 00:07:00,060 --> 00:07:04,800 Sean Aylmer: have huge potential from central banks and governments through to 118 00:07:04,890 --> 00:07:08,430 Sean Aylmer: investors, people like it. When do you think that starts 119 00:07:08,430 --> 00:07:09,630 Sean Aylmer: to become more mainstream? 120 00:07:10,380 --> 00:07:12,900 Edwin Aoki: That's a great question. I think that we're already starting 121 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:17,130 Edwin Aoki: to see the mainstreaming of some of this information and 122 00:07:17,130 --> 00:07:22,500 Edwin Aoki: understanding today. Certainly, we see that 60% of Australian online 123 00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:25,800 Edwin Aoki: businesses are interested in the metaverse either today or in 124 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:30,690 Edwin Aoki: the future. We understand that both consumers here in Australia 125 00:07:30,690 --> 00:07:34,710 Edwin Aoki: and around the world have really started to embrace digital 126 00:07:34,710 --> 00:07:39,750 Edwin Aoki: currencies and the opportunities that they present. We still have 127 00:07:39,750 --> 00:07:42,540 Edwin Aoki: to make sure that the technology is going to catch 128 00:07:42,540 --> 00:07:45,810 Edwin Aoki: up. We still have to understand that the regulatory experience 129 00:07:45,810 --> 00:07:47,520 Edwin Aoki: is going to catch up and we need to make 130 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,210 Edwin Aoki: sure that they're twinned with beautiful product experiences that make 131 00:07:51,210 --> 00:07:53,550 Edwin Aoki: them really available for customers. 132 00:07:54,060 --> 00:07:56,640 Sean Aylmer: Okay. You mentioned the metaverse and your research examined that 133 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,390 Sean Aylmer: area also. One in eight Australians have participated in the 134 00:08:00,390 --> 00:08:03,330 Sean Aylmer: metaverse with a large chunk of those having bought, sold, 135 00:08:03,330 --> 00:08:07,140 Sean Aylmer: or traded goods and services. How does that actually work? I 136 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:08,880 Sean Aylmer: must say I'm one of the seven and eight who 137 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,510 Sean Aylmer: haven't traded in the metaverse. I'm just interested in what 138 00:08:12,510 --> 00:08:13,020 Sean Aylmer: it looks like. 139 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:15,720 Edwin Aoki: Well, I think that it depends a little bit on 140 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,170 Edwin Aoki: how you define the metaverse and unfortunately, there are lots 141 00:08:19,170 --> 00:08:23,310 Edwin Aoki: of definitions around exactly what form that takes, but certainly, 142 00:08:23,310 --> 00:08:25,710 Edwin Aoki: we see a lot of interest in the digital gaming 143 00:08:25,710 --> 00:08:29,670 Edwin Aoki: and in the virtual reality space, people that are trading 144 00:08:29,670 --> 00:08:34,170 Edwin Aoki: goods and services like outfits or skins, people that are 145 00:08:34,650 --> 00:08:38,580 Edwin Aoki: customizing avatars and bringing those into the area and being 146 00:08:38,580 --> 00:08:43,320 Edwin Aoki: able to really apply that personalization and their own individuality 147 00:08:43,590 --> 00:08:45,510 Edwin Aoki: into their projection online. 148 00:08:46,590 --> 00:08:49,590 Sean Aylmer: I understand that part of it. From an eCommerce perspective, 149 00:08:50,220 --> 00:08:53,280 Sean Aylmer: where does that end up? Is there a point in 150 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,969 Sean Aylmer: a decade's time where it's far greater than what your 151 00:08:56,970 --> 00:08:58,020 Sean Aylmer: avatar looks like? 152 00:08:59,940 --> 00:09:03,540 Edwin Aoki: I think as an increasing part of our lives take 153 00:09:03,540 --> 00:09:06,990 Edwin Aoki: place online, and we've seen this really as an evolution 154 00:09:06,990 --> 00:09:10,950 Edwin Aoki: and really an acceleration to digitization over the past few 155 00:09:10,950 --> 00:09:15,689 Edwin Aoki: years, that there will be additional opportunities for people to 156 00:09:15,750 --> 00:09:20,730 Edwin Aoki: attend concerts, for people to participate in experiences that take 157 00:09:20,730 --> 00:09:25,710 Edwin Aoki: place in the metaverse and commerce, I think will follow 158 00:09:25,860 --> 00:09:30,240 Edwin Aoki: those opportunities, whether that is an NFT of an artist 159 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,679 Edwin Aoki: or a band that you particularly enjoy, whether that is 160 00:09:34,740 --> 00:09:40,470 Edwin Aoki: a set of personalizations to avatars or whether that is 161 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,489 Edwin Aoki: commerce that takes place in a virtual work setting in 162 00:09:44,490 --> 00:09:48,179 Edwin Aoki: the metaverse, all of these things will lead to transactable 163 00:09:48,179 --> 00:09:52,290 Edwin Aoki: opportunities and areas where payments and commerce will start to 164 00:09:52,290 --> 00:09:54,180 Edwin Aoki: come together in the digital realm. 165 00:09:54,809 --> 00:09:56,640 Sean Aylmer: Edwin, do ever see stuff and you just think, I 166 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,030 Sean Aylmer: don't get that. This is quite a serious question because 167 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,110 Sean Aylmer: what you are really talking about, the cutting edge here, 168 00:10:04,110 --> 00:10:10,050 Sean Aylmer: and PayPal's involved in payment system around this area, do you 169 00:10:10,050 --> 00:10:11,939 Sean Aylmer: ever come across stuff and you think, " oh, I don't 170 00:10:11,940 --> 00:10:12,420 Sean Aylmer: get that one"? 171 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,140 Edwin Aoki: Sean, it's a great question. I'll tell you that despite 172 00:10:16,590 --> 00:10:20,069 Edwin Aoki: my role, I'm actually a pretty terrible predictor of some 173 00:10:20,070 --> 00:10:23,880 Edwin Aoki: of these things. I thought that purchasing sledge hammers online 174 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:25,920 Edwin Aoki: and having them shipped to your house would be something 175 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:30,120 Edwin Aoki: that we would never see, but here we are. I 176 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,599 Edwin Aoki: think that the beauty of this space is that we 177 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,020 Edwin Aoki: are creating a new set of tools and foundational technologies 178 00:10:37,020 --> 00:10:40,500 Edwin Aoki: and people will take that and create really great things 179 00:10:40,500 --> 00:10:45,059 Edwin Aoki: that we haven't even imagined. I think I would be 180 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,020 Edwin Aoki: wrong more often than not to predict what exactly form 181 00:10:49,020 --> 00:10:49,589 Edwin Aoki: that takes. 182 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,800 Sean Aylmer: It's an exciting area to be and Edwin, thank you 183 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,179 Sean Aylmer: for talking to Fear and Greed. 184 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,340 Edwin Aoki: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. 185 00:10:56,790 --> 00:11:00,209 Sean Aylmer: That was Edwin Aoki, CTO of Blockchain, Crypto, and Digital 186 00:11:00,210 --> 00:11:03,569 Sean Aylmer: Currencies at PayPal. This is a Fear and Greed daily interview. 187 00:11:03,570 --> 00:11:06,449 Sean Aylmer: Remember this information is general in nature, and you should 188 00:11:06,450 --> 00:11:10,020 Sean Aylmer: seek professional advice before making any investment decisions. Join us 189 00:11:10,020 --> 00:11:11,970 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, 190 00:11:11,970 --> 00:11:15,660 Sean Aylmer: Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Shawn Aylmer. Enjoy your day.