1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: This is the Fitsy and with with Kate Richie podcast. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 2: I'm really nervous here. I don't know am I sitting properly? 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 2: I shall I cross my arms. I don't know what 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 2: to do here. I'm uncomfortable because this man is known 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 2: as the human lie Detector. And the reason why we've 6 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 2: got Steviev is because season two of stan original series 7 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 2: Pokerpha is available to stream right now on Stan. You've 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: got new episodes dropping every Thursday. But in that show, 9 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: you would know that there is someone that can well, 10 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 2: they can tell if you're lying on. This man has 11 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 2: revolved his whole life around. It's Steve van apperin Welcome. 12 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: Okay, Steve, thank you very much. This is exactly why 13 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: I have no friends left, oh Steve. Unfortunately they won't 14 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: turn up and talk too well. Pretty much, pretty much. 15 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 2: We've had a couple of mentalists on this show, right, 16 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 2: We've had illusionists, We've had magicians, We've had mentalists, and 17 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: I swear that they look into your eyes and when 18 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: they're trying to look for an answer, there must be 19 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 2: something in the eyes, Steve, that you see that happens 20 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 2: whether a pupil goes bigger or smaller, and they know 21 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 2: that's a very different thing, is it, because they've asked? 22 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm more interested in collecting information and data. 23 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: So if I was to ask you neurologically what you 24 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: did this morning, through memory and sensory input, you'd be 25 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: able to tell me what you did, what you heard, 26 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 1: what you saw, what you felt, emotions that took place. 27 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: Whereas if you're going to fabricate a story and embellish 28 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: for everyone lie you tell, you have to invent another 29 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: two or three to protect yourself from the first one. Secondly, 30 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: you want to make sure you don't contradict what you've 31 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: previously said. I've worked on eighty nine homicide cases and 32 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: two serial color investigations, and I see certain patterns, and 33 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: the patterns are usually truthful. People will take ownership, so 34 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: they'll include themselves in the narrative. Deceptive people won't do that. 35 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: They'll exclude themselves. I'll give you a quick contact. Do 36 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: you remember Jared biden Clay, the guy in Queensland who 37 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: reported his wife missing? Yes, yes, okay, so often as 38 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: I at a phone call from one of the investigators 39 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: and they said, what do you think, I said, he's 40 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: lying through his teeth and they go, well, hey, do 41 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: you know that? And I said, well, he did one 42 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: doorstop interview and while when the journalist asked him a question, 43 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: blah blah blah, he said, I'm really worried about my children. 44 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: What he didn't say is I'm really worried about our children. Now, 45 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: it's very uncharacteristic for somebody just to disassociate. Trust me, 46 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: if you've interviewed a parent who's had their child abducted, 47 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: they will never ever talk in past tense. Why because 48 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: the anticipation of expectation is their child or children will 49 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: be returned to life, safe and well correct. Truthful people 50 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: will be able to recall things from front to back, 51 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: back to front, but they'll also tell you how they 52 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: felt to give people will never do that because they 53 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: would implicate them. Yeah, well exactly, they didn't experience and 54 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: it may implicate them. So with the eyes, I look 55 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: for micro expressions and distress signals. What. Well, firstly, there's 56 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: more neural pathways between the brain and the hand than 57 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: any other part of the body, so it could be 58 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: masking concealment blocking behaviors. So a hand to the face 59 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: and at last moment, it maybe a deflectionately rubbing the eye, 60 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: touching the nose. If you've got an itch, you'll give 61 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: it a decent scratch. So what behavioral scientists believe is 62 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: that if you know you're lying, willfully and intentionally mis 63 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: misleads somebody knowing that what you're saying is factually correct. 64 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: That's what a lie is. I've never met you, have 65 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: I no? Okay, what was your very first job? Profascinate 66 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: to stop now, even before you answer that question, you 67 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: looked up slightly to your left. Now, cognitively, that tells 68 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: me exactly That is exactly my point. I wanted to 69 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: show that loss of eye contact is not indicative a 70 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: deception of neurological recour So what's important for me to 71 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: know about you is when you're recalling information, probably sixty 72 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: I'd ask you several questions where I know neurologically you 73 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: have to recall a past. So you're asking me to 74 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: go back to think now that does meaning thing to you. 75 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: But the FBI teacher agents to baseline and bench like 76 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: benchmark then look for deviations from that normative behaving there. 77 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: So if you're likely to create a false memory, guess 78 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: what you're going to access the creative side of your brain, yes, 79 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: and then we'll see changes. So if you haven't baseline, 80 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: how on earth are you going to see deviations from 81 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: that normalty. Let's say I'm investigating a homicide that you 82 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: are a suspect. Okay, last night, seven fifteen pm. The 83 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: pathologist has established the cause of death, manual strangulation, and 84 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: I want to know whether you're involved. And we've got 85 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: no other forensic, scientific, medical, coroberative evidence, biological trait and nothing. 86 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: We've got nothing. I killed him, you kill me. So 87 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: I'll ask you everything you did from say four to ten. 88 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: So you say, I went out. Where did you go? 89 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: Went to a restaurant? What was the name of the restaurant, 90 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: what time did you leave, how did you get there, 91 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: what was it rout your talk? What do you to 92 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: go there with? Have you been there before? A very 93 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: important question because a truthful person who've been there previous 94 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: that can draw on previous memories. What was on the menu, 95 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: who served you, what did you order, how did you pay, 96 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: what time did you leave? That takes a lot of 97 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: cognitive processing, and we know through signs that when we 98 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: lie or the processes through our frontal lobe and it 99 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: takes a lot of processing cognitive load. Our brain lights 100 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,679 Speaker 1: up like a Christmas tree because it is very difficult 101 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:21,559 Speaker 1: for the average person to lie in like am horse. 102 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 3: And that's a lot of questions at the one time. 103 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 3: Can we try something out with FITZI? Now I got 104 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 3: a question for you, Ryan James, I love it. In 105 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 3: the fourteen years that we've done this show, have you 106 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 3: ever had a big night out and then gone straight 107 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 3: to one air? 108 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: Yes, is telling you. 109 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: It's the MTV Music Awards. Yeah, years and years ago. 110 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 2: I went straight into work and I had one of 111 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: the best shows. 112 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: I know about the best show. But what I do 113 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: know is what I do know is I look for 114 00:05:55,200 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: mismatches or corresponding mattress and there are to there a 115 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: nod which is indicative of agreeing with what you're saying, 116 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: and the other thing too good eye contact. Typically usually 117 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: I look for your similarities or conflict between what you're 118 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: saying what they're doing. 119 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 3: Fitzy more than once, No. 120 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: No, now that yes he is, And let me ask 121 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: you did you see what he did then? Because nine 122 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: times nervous about it? Nine times out of ten. Most 123 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: people pay attention to the content structure to detail and delivery. 124 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: But he did two things with his body language. What 125 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: were they? He leant back, one crossed his arms. Now 126 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,239 Speaker 1: now right there, I can tell you have no idea 127 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: why because it was a question. It was almost like 128 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: this Tates. If you knew, you would tell me he 129 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: crossed his arms, but he didn't know what he did. 130 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: Was he a shoulder shrug? The number of cases that 131 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: I've worked on what's the shoulder shrug indicate doubt, So 132 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: you would know, he would know, and so he's a 133 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: terrible life. I stick to your daytime, John, Okay, this 134 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: is what do you How do you feel when you 135 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: see Donald Trump speaking? Yeah? This is question? Is he 136 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: the psychopath? The word psychopath or you know it is 137 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: one of the most misunderstood words in the English language. 138 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: A psychopath is somebody who is recklessly oblivious to the 139 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: physical emotional harm they cause their victims. A lot of 140 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: people think psychopaths or the study of psychopathy, is a 141 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: psychopath kills people. Well, I can guarantee everyone in the 142 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: studio has had a boss or had some past experience 143 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: with somebody that's a psychopath. It doesn't necessarily mean they 144 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: go out and kill people. Sure, I think you know, 145 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: we all lie. Everyone lies for different reasons. We like 146 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: to get ahead, we lie to impress, we lie to 147 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: pretend attract a potential partner. We like to say for 148 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: all sorts of things. It's really interesting because I think 149 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: on the liometer he's way up there, and I think 150 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: that some people it's a little bit different from a sociopath. 151 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: Some people, I'm sure you know, people who tell lies 152 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: and their lies are so unbelievable that they really believe 153 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: what they're saying. 154 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 2: It is out now on Stan poker face. But Steve, 155 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: we really appreciate you coming in here, mate, Thank you very. 156 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: Much, my pleasure. I had a fantastic time, did you really. Thanks. 157 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 3: Sits In Whipper with Kate Ritchie is a Nova podcast 158 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 3: walk great shows like this. 159 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: Download the Nova 160 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 3: Player via the app Store or Google playing the