WEBVTT - Solving the murder of Allison Baden-Clay: Mark Ainsworth Pt.2 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:07.840 Detective see a side of life the average person is 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.160 never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.080 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.280 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.600 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.560 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.559 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.360 Welcome back to part two of my chat with retired 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:53.880 Detective Superintendent Mark Ainsworth. Welcome back, Mark, Thanks Gerry again. 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:56.720 Even during the break, I was thinking about the stuff 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.320 that you were talking about, youth crime. So it's given 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.120 me a lot the thoughts on different approaches. Well, I 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:04.920 want to talk about now, and I think it will 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:09.080 lead us into another topic of domestic violence and issues 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:13.240 across the country happening. But there was a high profile 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.800 murder investigation that you oversaw, and that was the murder 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:20.840 of Alison baden Clay in twenty twelve. I believe it was. 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:21.720 That's correct. 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.320 Can you tell our listeners about that crime, just how 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.720 it started and about the investigation, just the breakdown of 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:30.800 what happened. 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:35.800 No problems. I was actually started on the Saturday as 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:39.479 relieving sorry back in the Moral as the regional crime coordinator, 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:44.560 Detective Superintendent. I'd been on holidays and that Friday afternoon 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:46.280 I've got a phone call the last day of leave 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.880 that we'd had this missing person that looked a bit suspicious. 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.320 Saturday morning, gone into where our major Instrument room was 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:58.040 set up and got the details. The whole investigative investigative 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.280 team were there and we started and started a full 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:05.280 full bloind major incident room, and in conjunction with that, 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:07.800 we had a Ford command post set up at the 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.880 Brookfield Showgrounds where we had people searching for Allison. Basically 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:16.440 how it started was on the Friday morning, Allison's husband, Jared, 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:19.120 had rang police and said my wife's gone for a 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:23.320 walk and she hasn't come home and I'm concerned about 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:28.160 where she is. Uniform police attended his place and did 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.680 a sensational job. When they got there, he was very 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.760 aloof and they noticed some scratch marks on his face, 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.400 which he said that yeah, there was a razor cut. 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:41.799 He spoke about an extra marital affair that he had 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:47.000 to the uniform police. The uniform police called their supervisor, 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.200 who called the CIB who attended the scene and from 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:53.600 the great work initially from the uniform officers, full major 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:57.280 Incident room was set up. The house that Jared was 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:59.639 in was declared a crime scene and we held that 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:02.440 crime seen for a week to allow the forensic officers 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:04.200 to do a thorough investigation. 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:08.799 Mark, can I just interrupt? That's great, you're relaying how 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:13.519 it happened. But with the uniform guys going there, did 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:18.079 they guys and girls? Was there something suspicious about him 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:20.440 from the start that that didn't feel like it added up? 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.400 What was he saying that his wife just went for 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.000 a walk and she hasn't returned. How long had she 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:27.000 been missing for. 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.360 She'd only gone What he claimed was she got up 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.040 and went for a walk every morning at six o'clock. 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:35.360 At this particular day, she was to go to a 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.040 real estate convention down the Gold Coast, and he was 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:43.640 concerned that she hadn't come home from her walk. Uniform 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.280 so what time of day was that it was around? 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:48.520 I think it was around from memory, around seven am 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:52.440 or a little bit before seven am. Told the police 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:54.840 said he'd been out driving around trying to find her. 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.920 He'd been trying to wring her mobile phone, no answer, 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:00.680 and it was totally out of character for her to 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:06.040 disappear under those circumstances. The big thing that raised the 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.160 suspicion of the uniform was the scratches on his face. 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.080 Him talking about an extra marital affair, and that's that 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:14.240 was their big suspicions. 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:16.600 And just as generally, what are we talking about with 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.680 the scratches? How significant were they? 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.440 They were very significant, the scratches like it looked like 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.120 if he claimed his claim was true, the raisor blabe 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:28.920 was certainly out of control. It left massive, big scratches 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:32.080 and just depicted in media down the side of his 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:36.039 face there very much inconsistent with the razor cut. 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:40.520 And then talking about the extra marital affair that he had. 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:43.440 It's like he's going on the on the fenceive putting 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.359 the putting the defense up straight away, like if you 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:48.200 dig deep, you're going to find this. So he told 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:50.480 the police there when he's reporting his wife missing. 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:55.839 Yeah, there was just a range of scenarios that raised 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.760 their suspicion, which you forced him to contact the local 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:00.520 to O actives. 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.200 I'm just putting my sort of homicide had on too, 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.279 and like at seven am, or go for a work 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:10.680 at six am, and it's pretty quick that he's called 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.800 the police. Hasn't foanned anyone else, And yeah, it. 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:19.839 Through red flags as the investigation started. There were a 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:21.760 number of other phone calls and one of those was 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.960 to his lawyer. Now, if your wife or partner had 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.120 gone missing, would you be ringing the lawyer straight up? 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:28.599 Yeah. 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.640 The other one was's checks on the fifth amendments right 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:36.480 to silence. So there was red flags once the investigation started, 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.600 from the minute he jumped on the phone to reporting 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:41.640 it to the police all the way through. 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.600 Okay, now you said the place was set up as 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.000 a crime scene. Was anything found in the crime scene? No? 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.680 What there was three vehicles there. We seized all the 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:56.400 vehicles for crime scene examination. In the house, there was 0:05:56.440 --> 0:06:01.480 no evidence of tissues or anything which consistent for razor cut, 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:06.479 you know, the blood, anything like that, and inside the 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.800 house was pretty much unremarkable from a crime scene point 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:13.240 of view. As it transpired later on, there was a 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.120 white Captiva which was only I think from memory was 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:20.000 eight weeks old, which that was the car that Allison 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:23.880 was driving, and as the investigation progressed, that came up 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:28.680 some significant evidence in that regard. What happened was a 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.320 full scientific examination was done of the car and there 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:36.720 was bloodstains found in the rear driver's side area against 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:40.400 a metal clip which is used for clipping seats back in. 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:45.640 An examination of that showed blood coming from that clip 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:50.320 running down in a downward direction, and as investigation progressed, 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:55.840 that was identified through DNA as being Allison's blood. Interestingly, 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.240 in the back of that car was a number of 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.919 kid's toys that was stacked neatly in the back of 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:06.800 the car. When we interviewed a housekeeper, she said those 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.160 toys have never been removed underneath the house for a 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.640 number of months because the kids had outground them. They 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:20.520 were in the car. So that that as investigation progressed along, 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.240 you know, Ellison's body was found and it was found 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:25.040 in an area. 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:29.200 Yes, sorry, Mark, just on that. What was I would 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:33.320 imagine there would have been the inquiries about the relationships 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:35.800 I had. Was there any issues with the relationships, had 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:40.520 there been any history of violence? And looking at the husband, 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:42.800 who I think it would be fair to say was 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.960 a suspect right from the start. Was there anything else 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:50.200 that jumped out in those inquiries that added to the suspicion. 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.000 The big, big thing that really jumped out was his 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.160 lawyer attending and saying, my client will not be answering 0:07:56.200 --> 0:08:01.200 any questions. Now, interesting, is that is normal advice or 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.600 normal behavior if the if your partner has gone for 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.880 a walk. So that part was significant. There's no history 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:11.000 of domestic violence on any police database at that address 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.800 or with the people involved. Jared was in the Kenmare 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:17.960 Chamber of Commerce and pretty much respected amongst the business 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.720 people in the area. He ran a local real estate agent, 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:25.520 not a very successful one as we later found out. Yeah, 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:29.240 so that's that was very interesting from the word go. Look, 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:33.400 you know, even suggestions were made to his lawyer along 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.640 the line. So you know, Jared's had an argument with 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.720 Alison and he's done something dreadful. Now is the time 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:41.680 to tell us, but it just will not be cooperating 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:43.679 and that was all the way through, right even up 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:45.000 to the end of the trial. 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:49.880 Did he go on TV? And I seem to have 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.679 a recollection of him going on TV and making an 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:54.120 appeal for the public. 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.679 He certainly did when I on the Saturday morning when 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:00.480 we kicked off the Major Incident room, which spoken to 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.560 We've spoken to him about doing an appeal for Allison 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:06.920 if she's out there, to come forward. He refused to 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:11.080 do that, putting up Jeff and Priscilla, Allison's parents to 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.839 do that, to that appeal for Allison to come home. 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.199 And you had an information to come forward, I think 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:20.199 you know, the significant public interest in the matter. The 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:24.240 media kept hounding Jared and his sister and family to 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:26.640 the point that he decided to make a public appeal, 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:28.600 but that was off his own back, nothing to do 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:32.079 with any request from police. And we were we were 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:34.040 made aware of it obviously by the media that he'd 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.480 made a little little appearance. 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:42.559 A fewcodile crocodile tears there. Okay, so what just giving 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:46.400 people that an understanding. How many how many staff did 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.640 you have working on that investigation and what was the 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:52.600 breakdown of the investigative team and was called a strike force. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.560 Note it was a task force. It was two separate parts. 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:58.680 In the initial part Allison, we had to try and 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:02.400 locate her, so the brook Showgrounds was probably about five 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:05.160 hundred meters from her house where he claimed she's left 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:08.360 to go for a walk. We had a Ford command post, 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:12.240 there were searchers involving multiple police, We had recruits from 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.199 the academy, a lot of gold mines around that area, 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:19.760 so we had expertise from the local council ses searching 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:21.959 for her. And that search went for eleven days, so 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:26.959 we've got full on there every single day. Allison's parents 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:32.840 were at that place. His parents, sorry, Jared did not 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:37.080 turn up there the consistent. At the same time as 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:40.040 running that, we had the Major Incident Room, which involved 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:44.760 the probably at its peak probably forty detectives following things through. 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.120 We're getting a lot of information. I think in total, 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.400 fifteen hundred pieces of information from crime stoppers came in. 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:55.240 Every single piece of that information was run out. Also 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.000 at the time, you know, there was electronics, violence and 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:03.760 physical surveillance being undertaken, and examination of computers and mobile phones. 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:10.000 The magnitude of an investigation like that, and yeah, there's 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.520 red flags that you guys had picked up right from 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:17.040 the start. But red flags are one thing. It's about 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:21.000 gathering the evidence that you got sufficient evidence to charge 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:25.440 him with the incident. Room running like that. The search 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:29.120 over eleven days, Was it eleven days that Allison's body 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:29.920 was found. 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:34.400 Yes, eleven days. We had a fellow that was kayaking, 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:38.240 kayaking up off a tribute off the Brisbane Reverend Collo 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:40.400 Creek and that's when he was the one that discovered 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.040 Allison's body on the mud banks there. 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.480 And what the crime scene set up there, what was 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.000 revealed about Allison's body. 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.280 It had been there for the duration, what had happened. 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.280 As part of the investigation, we set up a time 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:57.640 lapse camera because it was tidal at the tart part 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.160 of the creek and where the body was dumped, that 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.760 was above the high tide mark. So I think that 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:07.240 was one mistake that Jared made when he dumped Allison's body, 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:10.040 that he couldn't even get the tides right. Had she 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:13.120 ended up in the tides there and the Brisbane Review 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:15.240 Tribute was about two hundred meters away, the body could 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.959 have ended up anywhere. Unfortunately, during the period of time 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.640 we're looking for her, we had quite a ray of 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.000 weather patterns. There's a lot of rain, very hot days, 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.680 so the body was very much decomposed and from that 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.560 decomposition we were not able to obtain any sufficient evidence 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.840 like fingernail scratches or skin or anything under the fingernails. 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:44.600 We sent away some samples of bone to a professor 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.720 in Western Australia to see whether or not he could 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:53.760 determine whether there was any consistency with drowning or death beforehand. 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:58.040 That came back that there's no evidence of drowning. We 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:02.800 never had a cause of death the decomposition, which was 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:06.000 a bit of a challenge in moving forward to charge, 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:11.160 as she'd be aware of. But during the investigation we 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.640 talked earlier about the teamwork and I relied solely on 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.240 my detective, senior sergeant and the crew, and I must 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.439 say they are absolutely brilliant, you know, from the investigators, 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:25.400 from the scenes of crime people, from everyone that had 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:29.560 an involvement, The commitment and dedication was second to none. 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.800 You've got a mother that's gone missing that stage. She 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.400 had three young girls, I think they were about eight, 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:41.680 six and four hadn't seen their mother. The father, you know, 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.200 as a suspect in our eyes, and his behavior was 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:48.000 a bit of radic shortly after she went missing, and 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:52.360 it really motivated police to really dig in. 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.160 I can picture what it would be like, the dynamics 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:58.839 of an investigation of that nature and the way you 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:03.440 describe it and the suspicions attached. So obviously jump up, Yeah, 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.199 calling the police after an hour solicitor and affair scratch 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.520 marks and that it's circumstantial evidence. It's enough to add 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:15.920 a suspicion. You've recovered the body, but that's not revealing much. 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:19.400 There's still so much work to do and it needs 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.640 the attention at tension to detail. So you had a 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.760 detective senior sergeant running the team, Yes, that's correct, ye, 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:31.040 and then for the or say at different times on 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.520 the investigation, how long did the investigation run before there 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.920 was a serious discussion about whether we've got sufficient evidence 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:40.000 to charge him? 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.200 Right up until the thirteenth of June is when we 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:44.840 went and picked him up and charged him. 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:49.400 Even so, what's that two months? 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:52.360 Just under two months, And it was that morning we 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:56.520 put a strategy into place, and at that morning, after 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.360 our strategy ran out, we made a determination to arrest 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:01.440 him with that stuff age. There was a lot of 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:06.600 toing throwing between people a little bit more senior to 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:08.880 me giving advice that you haven't got a cause of death, 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.480 how are you going to charge? You know, the usual 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:14.560 experts coming in that have no involvement in it with 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:19.680 their opinion. But the team we had twenty three pieces 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.440 of circumstantial evidence and we were one hundred percent committed 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.720 that we had sufficient to charge. And what put the 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.800 icing on the cake for us is during this investigation, 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:33.560 as we said before in your briefings, you get information 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:38.200 or you get suggestions from that team, and we engaged 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:42.560 a botanist who was leading botanist in Queensland. Because when 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.840 Allison was found she had bits of foliage in her hair. 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.960 He was able to examine that foliage and determine the 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:54.000 types of plant material that that was. And interestingly, when 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.160 we went back to the baden Clay house, each one 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.360 of those plants were at the rear of the house 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:04.280 and significantly there was a cat's claw I think it 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.640 was called, which was dangling over the back of the 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:12.200 garage near where the Captiva had been parked. So when 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:14.520 he lifted Allison up to put her in the back, 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.560 of that captiva, the cat claw according to her hair. 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:22.600 The work of that botanist was absolutely significant, and really, 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:25.520 you know, we're talking about circumstantial evidence, but that was 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.640 really high level circumstantial evidence that he came up with. 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.400 Fortunate for us, the botanist lived in that vicinity of 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:34.640 that area, and he knew the area at the back 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.720 of his hand, and there was no other pieces of 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.080 foliage that was found in her hair anywhere in the 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.560 near vicinity of where which she was found, So his 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:44.840 evidence was significant. 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.360 I can see why that had been an exciting moment 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.440 getting that piece piece of evidence and linking it. But 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.160 again that's the attention to detail. And I think you 0:16:55.240 --> 0:17:01.200 mentioned twenty three pieces of circumstantial evidence. Look at circumstantial 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:05.080 evidence like on its own, that doesn't really paint a picture, 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:06.879 but when you add them all up together and you 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.959 sit down and look at them, and it's interesting. You 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.600 were talking about, you know, the decision to charge or not, 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.480 because sometimes that's the hardest part of being a homicide detective. 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.440 That Okay, let's break it down. What have we got here, 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:23.199 And you're looking and you think it's one thing to 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.600 think a person's done at crime it's another thing to 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:28.560 be able to prove that person has done a crime. 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.320 I can imagine there would have been the naysayers. There 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:34.800 always is when you're trying to make decisions, whether that 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.760 comes from above or below, there's always you know, it's 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:42.560 a robust decision to make. You guys obviously felt as 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:48.280 a team that there was sufficient evidence to charge. When 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.120 he was arrested, what was his attitude. I would imagine 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.240 someone like that would still be denying it. 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:56.080 One hundred percent. Gary, You're still denying it. And he 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.680 called his solicit up and wouldn't talk to us. Look, 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:02.200 he was a bloke that was full of his own 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.320 self importance and thought he could beat everything. But he 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.080 stuffed up a few ways along the line. One is 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:11.200 that we had an order a fornzic order to get 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.960 samples and everything off him because we'd seized his vehicles. 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.320 On the way to the police station, he drove into 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:22.800 a shopping center wall, no evidence of any breaking and 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.320 on the front page in the front seat of the 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:29.679 car was page three, a big article about Allison. He 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.160 got a few minor injuries from that accident, but we 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:34.280 were able to use that to our benefit in that 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.240 we had a full mental health assessment of him done 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:41.000 at the hospital, which, as you're aware, it can be 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:43.919 quite important later on if he wants to make that 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.320 claim and he's deemed to be of sound mind. So 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.000 as that part of it, he took himself to a 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:55.000 local doctor a couple of days after Allison disappeared, informing 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:56.720 the doctor, I'd like, you know, the police want me 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.800 to have a look at these razor cuts on my face. 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.879 Unfortunately for Jered, that doctor had examined about five hundred 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.720 rasor biopsis during a training period as part of a project, 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:13.000 and she was clearly able to say they weren't consistent. Interestingly, 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:15.720 this is only a couple of days after He's left 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:17.520 his business card with the doctor and said if you 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:19.359 want to catch up for a coffee, I'd be interested. 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.159 During the physical examination we conducted of him, there was 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:30.439 other scratches and wounds on his chest. He said they 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:34.440 were caused by a caterpillar the day before Allison's disappearance 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.240 when the girls were running in a cross country. So 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.000 we found the area where that was where he claimed 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.800 this killer caterpillar had got on to him, and we 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.159 got a caterpillar expert to that area along with the 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.119 botanist to determine if there were any caterpillars in that 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:55.680 area and whatsot they were. Interestingly, there was no caterpillars 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.879 that would cause that sort of injury, so we were 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.399 able to knock that down. We found evidence on his 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.760 laptop of an extramarital affair with a woman there and 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:11.639 they were communicating covertly on that laptop, which led us 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:16.720 to tracking her down. She was very, very staunch with 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:21.119 Jared until we threatened her with arrest and she decided 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.879 to cough up a full story. Everything we put in 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.159 place and tried. He thought it could out smartest. But 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:32.080 his biggest mistake, again we're talking about circumstantial evidence, was 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:35.120 inquiries to the insurance company to see what Dallison's life 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.440 insurance policy was worth prior to her disappearing. And I 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:40.159 think that was around the from memory of the fourteenth 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:45.520 or fifteenth of April, the day that we located Alison. 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:50.080 That afternoon, a further inquiry was made by him in 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:55.000 relation to the life insurance policy. The big thing that 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:57.359 was very important in this and you know, the whole 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:00.600 world was watching it. You know that forty five that 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:02.560 this matter was in the paper it was queens End, 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:06.960 New soth Wales, Queens and Australia and internationally interest in it. 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:10.320 We did a peer review of every section of the 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:13.440 investigation to make sure we were one hundred percent accurate. 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.720 Fortunately we did that, so toxicology came back but a 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:23.480 decimal point in relation to a substance antidepressant in Allison's 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:26.600 body had been put in the wrong place. We had 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:29.639 that piece of information reviewed by a toxicology expert in 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:35.119 Victoria who corrected it, which was substantial. Okay, So the 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.480 critical part of the peer review I think, you know, 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:43.240 really gave us a lot of confidence in moving forward with. 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:47.840 Charging and mark on that. And I like the idea 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:51.720 of peer reviews and investigations I've been involved in. We've 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.480 had that type of thing to have a look because 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:57.760 sometimes you're in it, you're looking, and sometimes you need 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.840 other people to have a look and cross everything you've 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:04.840 got because these type of mistakes, and you talk decimal 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:08.200 point or whatever. If you went to trial, and I'm 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:11.399 surmising here, so we're talking hypothetically, if you went to 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:14.399 trial with a circumstantial brief of evidence and you're in 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:17.280 front of a jury, murder trial, a lot of pressure 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:22.119 on high profile and then through no fault of the 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:26.000 police or anyone really as human error, a decimal point 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:29.359 in the wrong point, the amount that the defense would 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:31.520 make of that, How can we trust anything that police 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:35.159 have presented here? When they're presented this, it's been shown 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:37.280 and I can just imagine the dramatics in the court, 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:39.119 the paper with the in the hand waving that the 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:43.639 jury it's wrong, it's false. So the thoroughness and that 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:47.280 attention to the detail and the little things, and I'm 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:50.320 fascinated by the story of it. I didn't realize a 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:54.040 lot of the nuances with the way the investigation played out, 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.320 but I know you speak highly of the team and 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:00.560 proud of the team, and I can understand why, because 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:03.480 that's the type of investigation that could slip through the 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:06.200 cracks if you didn't get those things like the botanists 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:10.840 with the plant sample and different things that you picked 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:15.840 up on running an investigation. Overseeing an investigation of that 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:21.680